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Gospel Hope for Non Christians

Believing after Seeing and the Saved Surprised Sheep of the Nations Possibilities

Last Updated: 9 January 2022

 

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#BibleandChurchFathersQuoteBook

 

Latest Update: 5 Dec 2022

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Page of Contents for this #BibleandChurchFathersQuoteBook

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#IgnoredChristianDoctrineBook

 

Latest Update: 19 February 2022

 

This book is written to look at how some Christian Doctrines are Ignored by some modern Christians as not so important.  Therefore we try our  best not to repeat the usual Doctrines which are already well Revealed and accepted across mainstream Christianity such as the Doctrine of Trinity to the Doctrine of Holiness and rather choose to Speak about the other New Testament Bible Verses which pertain to some of these Ignored Doctrines and Possibilities so that a Christian may decide his walk of faith better and not be discouraged by empty words against it sometimes (by those who preach a simplified saved by Grace Doctrine ignoring the fruits of Salvation or in some cases ignoring the Rewards Doctrine for Works as Revealed for this New Testament).

 

The free pdf may be found in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DZcb07EAX5z1wcg7BMMY5GwCkUpc76J3/view?usp=sharing

 

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#SafeRouteScripturallyBook

 

Latest Update: 31 Oct 2022

 

This book is written to explain some key Christian Doctrine position we take to be Safe Scripturally highlighting the Risks with Bible Verses for those who do otherwise. This is important to as a Christian because we do not want Christ Questioning us one day regarding ‘Why we didn’t warn others?’ based on Verses below:

 

“… When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and YOU DO NOT SPEAK TO WARN THE WICKED FROM HIS WAY, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND. Nevertheless IF YOU WARN the WICKED to TURN FROM HIS WAY, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but YOU HAVE DELIVERED YOUR SOUL. …” (Ezekiel 33:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

This does not necessarily mean that the opposite positions to what we propose as the Safe Route Scripturally in this Book must we wrong but rather in some cases it could be so if God permitted it. However the risk of the opposite positions is still there because we prove our position with Bible Verses and the opposite positions usually pertain to New Modern Ways which some Christians have claimed that God told them do so especially based on the Progressive Revelation Movement which we do not support.

 

Since only God Knows whether their claims are true or not, we do not judge those Christians letting God Judge them alone. However, we also point out to them to have respect for these First Ways of the Church especially which are Written in Bible Verses because the Doctrinal Position we demonstrate is already Plainly Written in Holy Scripture and so it is already 100% Approved by New Testament Scripture and the First Churches which obeyed it are already Saved by Practicing it and that’s why we seek to Imitate Scripture likewise.  Big number of Christians following a Doctrine or believing in something is not necessarily a sign of Truth which is easy to prove for any Protestants since no matter what blessing or evangelism they claim, the Roman Catholics beat them in financial blessings to number of souls and so by that logic, does it justify Praying to Virgin Mary? So claiming such proofs is not Biblical but rather we point to Bible Verses only for each claim.

 

 

The free pdf may be found in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HUXXa2kgpImEpVWFg4AN0SBc0x4ulSLn/view?usp=share_link

 

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“Prosperity Testimony” – Questions to Ponder

 

A General Scenario: Imagine your country has majority of religion A and race B but a person of religion C and race D becomes its king by Democracy. So if that “king” comes and gives a testimony of his life, would you leave your religion and convert to that instead?

 

This is a reason “why” I do “not” believe in any “Prosperity” as a

“sign of truth”.

 

The “king” may be from subrace D1 while the others from his native country may be from subrace D2, D3, … where even among them they won’t support those of another subrace easily or if any from their subrace is not of the same religion of C, can you see it?

 

In fact, they won’t even allow subrace D2, D3, etc. to marry those of subrace D1 or some selected subrace only to do so. But despite such racism hidden within their own hearts even, they can be among the “richest” people in the world too. God Will Reveal everything One Day.

 

While people from race D or others wish to be “king” in the land of majority religion A and race B, in their own “native land/motherland” NO ONE from race B or others who do not believe in religion C will ever be a “king” there (in their “motherland”) by “democracy”, an irony isn’t it?

 

The only “Genuine Truth” here I see is that the people of majority religion A and race B have been able to PRACTICE JUSTICE beyond their own religion A and race B which itself puts them at a MORAL LEVEL that is UNSURPASSED by their other counterparts. The day the others can do similarly in not just “appointing a king” but also in “other matters of business and life” then they get closer to “God’s Truth”. Till then, it’s just a “prosperity game” which is an “illusion” which destroys one in the “spirit world”.

 

A similar thing can be seen in regards to “Prosperity Churches” vs “Poorer Churches” likewise in analogy.

 

That’s why Christ put the Command of PERFECTION not as “prosperity” but the CHARITY DOCTRINE:

 

“… 21JESUS said to him, “IF you want to be PERFECT, go, SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away SORROWFUL, for he had GREAT POSSESSIONS. 23Then JESUS said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is HARD for a RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 24And AGAIN I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. …” (Matthew 19:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

That’s why in CHRIST’s OWN WORDS here we see that the GREATEST NUMBER is “ZERO” for those who can do “ZERO PROSPERITY” of “… SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME. …” which I CANNOT DO (so even a scrap of heaven or at the final new earth would suffice for me) but the Greatest Fathers of the Church the world has even known (as I have quoted say in the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook) have done it remarkably. Please note that letting go of wealth and living like a hermit does NOT count much if the “wealth was left to the family” earlier as that person by relative measure did NOT give anything to the poor. I mean the best is to give some to family and according to one’s ability give to the poor as well.

 

An Edifying Comment: Can the country of origin of such persons allow those NOT of same race NOR of same religion to hold such portfolio likewise? (or will they never vote for such even if the candidate is good? NOT just in POLITICS but any field too like for example in Education even they grab the “paying teaching opportunities to themselves instead of the candidate of best qualification among them even” as that’s their “moral level even toward same race but different religion” is only at that level of “prejudice” even. So, Let all Answer God One Day).

 

Conclusion

 

You see it is People who send themselves to “Hell” (even if “Eternal so be it”) due to “their own injustice and unholiness within them” as these few points in comparison itself shows.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Especially those which affect the “future in the Spirit World and beyond” after we die toward the “Resurrection”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#MysteryoftheKingdomofHeavenBook

 

Please find the Latest Draft of a New Book Titled  “Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven in First Christianity” (Completed 31 January 2022) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-zX7XgzguBYHkXWucUZ6xfMInbwtj0Z3/view?usp=sharing

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Short Description of Book

 

This Book explores the Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven beginning with Christ’s Most Blessed Words Found in Holy Scripture and explores related Bible Verses and other First Christianity Quotes especially from the Church Fathers who were direct disciples of the Apostles themselves or their disciples to understand this better and explore related topics by giving Church History examples too where relevant.

 

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Free E-Books are Available in link below including the latest one titled:

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Here’s another Draft of a new book too

 

 

Here’s another Draft of a new book too

 

#CharityDoctrineBook

 

This Book explores mostly the Bible Verses related to the Charity Doctrine aspect apart from looking at some other related topics regarding Christian Perfection. Its contents are not well listed out but for a keen reader it will be more of a treasure hunt for Bible Verses on such Topics together with First Christianity quotes in support of it where possible. A 100 year old or 500 year old Christianity cannot fully Reveal 2000 year old Christianity’s Mysteries and Secrets.

 

The free pdf may be found in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MiCYDzxbOc0yAZhT9Es9U7yL6XLuV0Qz/view?usp=sharing

 

 

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#EternalHellAnnihilationandUniversalismBook

 

Please find the Latest Draft of a New Book Titled

 

“Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24 December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

Short Description of Book

 

This Book explores the Bible Verses to see whether Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity can be true simultaneously in some way especially from writings of the Church Fathers who were direct disciples of the Apostles themselves or their disciples to understand this better via those writings called the Apostolic Fathers. We only quote the Apostolic Fathers Writings as modern Scholarship calls it such since these are the earliest Christian Writings known and which were accepted in First Christianity. The later fathers and Christians even if 1 million of them believe in it can err since they may be repeating what one particular church father has said or interpreted. In light of this fact, it may be best to look at these earliest and best ones known to Christianity outside the Bible.

 

Thank You

 

 

Is 1 Corinthians 15:52 Speaking of a Last Trumpet at the end of the 1000 years Millennial Reign instead of the Rapture at the Second Coming of Christ?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161429161137784

 

Yes, according to Ambrosiaster:

 

“… 1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. …”

 

“… THE LAST TRUMPET is the one which is sounded when the battle is over. AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS, when the antichrist has been destroyed and THE SAVIOR HAS REIGNED, SATAN WILL BE RELEASED FROM HIS PRISON in order to lead astray the nations of Gog and Magog, who are demons, in order that they might attack the fortresses of the saints. They will fail, and when they are defeated they will SUFFER THE SAME FATE AS THE ANTICHRIST AND THE FALSE PROPHET. IT IS THEN THAT THE LAST TRUMPET WILL SOUND THE FINAL VICTORY. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

 

Source (Commentary on Paul’s Epistles 1 Corinthians 15:52):

http://catenabible.com/com/584c89a19ac03ecd4b8e5f75

 

I have discussed this in detail in pages 553 to 560 in Book titled “Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven” in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p7I45y8puwfyL4Ev1izPKvm0XQ6I551P/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

Which based on St. Irenaeous of Lyon’s usage too which may point to this same “Second Resurrection” timeline at the end of the 1000 years giving the “possibility” that a “Second Badge of Righteous” may be Saved at that time too while Christians get “Changed” into “Angelic Glory” (Details with Quotes in pages quoted), here’s St. Irenaeous’ quote without explanation for comparison (quoting the “LAST TRUMPET” Verse part too from this 1 Corinthians 15:52):

 

“… Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XIII, Point 1)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

Original Post link with explanation too:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161411664417784/

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

Discussing a POSSIBILITY NOT Doctrine as I could be Wrong for Revelation 20:12

 

Firstly a related set of Verses for ‘Context of Mercy to be Shown on Judgment Day‘ for some based on the FRUIT of CHARITY DOCTRINE:

 

“…  12For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him UNTIL THAT DAY. 13HOLD FAST THE PATTERN OF SOUND WORDS which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14That GOOD THING WHICH WAS COMMITTED TO YOU, KEEP BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells in us. 15This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16The LORD GRANT MERCY to the HOUSEHOLD OF ONESIPHORUS, FOR HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18The LORD GRANT TO HIM THAT HE MAY FIND MERCY FROM THE LORD IN THAT DAY—and YOU KNOW VERY WELL HOW MANY WAYS HE MINISTERED [d]TO ME AT EPHESUS. …” (2 Timothy 1:12 – 18, NKJV)

 

 

Verses 16  and 18 here which clearly Teach the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE as the FRUIT OF SALVATION for MERCY to be SHOWN ON JUDGEMENT DAY ( “in that Day”).

 

Please note that Verse 12 mentions ( “UNTIL that Day”) together with Verse 18 “THAT HE MAY FIND MERCY FROM THE LORD IN THAT DAY”  refers most likely to “Judgment Day” simply because ‘Christians are the “GREAT” on “Judgment Day” (while the saved non-Christians could  be “the SMALL” who are saved on this day while “THE DEAD” only are JUDGED who are “STANDING” indicating consciousness in their ‘Resurrection for Judgment Bodies’ which are the unsaved non-Christian ) in Verses below:

 

“… And I saw THE DEAD, SMALL and GREAT, STANDING BEFORE GOD, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

So possibly,

 

  1. The CHRISTIANS = THE GREAT here (as in front of God, an unsaved dead being called great seems unlikely, the BRIDE the LAMB’S WIFE Revelation 21:8 – 10, Overcomers Revelation 21:7, CELESTIAL/HEAVENLY GLORY Resurrection Bodies 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42, who come for REWARD and not JUDGMENT John 5:24 – 25, and SHINE Daniel 12:3)

 

  1. The SMALL = Saved non-Christians (from the NATIONS who are SAVED Revelation 21:24 – 27 from the [New] EARTH with TERRESTRIAL/EARTHLY GLORY Resurrection Bodies 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42 who have DONE GOOD (‘FRUIT’ not cause of Salvation, John 5:28 – 29) for ETERNAL LIFE (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46) who may be THIRSTY ONES given the WATER OF LIFE FREELY (Revelation 21:6) as even THE BRIDE or CHRISTIANS CALL OUT TO THEM ON THAT DAY after JUDGMENT DAY in the NEW HEAVENLY JERUSALEM TIMELINE (in REVELATION 22:17 Mysteriously) where THIRSTY can also indicate BELIEVING AFTER SEEING (based on John 7:37 – 39) and John 6:36 – 40 especially JOHN 6:40 on the LAST DAY.

iii. The DEAD = Unsaved non-Christians (‘…  THE DEAD WERE JUDGED …’) into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8) who are only resurrected  for Judgment for doing evil (John 5:29)  hence EVERLASTING SHAME & PUNISHMENT in FIRE (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46).

 

Regardless, Charity Doctrine is Truly a Doctrine for the Church of Christ in the Context of Finding MERCY on JUDGMENT DAY as the FRUIT OF SALVATION according to 2 Timothy 1:18 itself.

 

I am “not” saying that I must be 100% right but it’s “possible” without contradicting Scripture but let God Decide and I accept it either way knowing that no matter how much I may think about it, I could still err being human.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possibility for Hope for Some non-Christians in the Second Resurrection Discussion

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161404805337784

 

Question

 

Judgement Day is only for the >>Unsaved and Sinners and the Demon Seeds.

 

For the Righteous are Rapture 1,000 + years before the Great White Throne Judgement Days…

 

So if you found your Soul at the Great White Throne at the Judgement Day that meant you were Never Saved

 

For you did not receive your First Resurrection/Rapture when Jesus return ….

 

Reply

 

Firstly, Regardless of Eschatologies, the Mercy to be saved on “that Day” as Apostle St. Paul Writes is clearly based on Charity Doctrine in 2 Timothy 1:16 – 18 as was discussed in an earlier post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161404426322784/

 

As regards to Eschatology,

 

Some seemed to be saved only on Judgment Day as per details below:

 

 

1) The Surprised Sheep of the “nations/Gentiles” based on the “Charity Doctrine of what one did ‘… when I was Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless,…’ are clearly Saved on Judgment Day only (as described in Matthew 25:31 – 46)  which  occurs 1000 years after the First Resurrection and Rapture (Matthew 25:1 – 13).

 

Please take note that it’s highly unlikely that Matthew 25:1 – 13 and Matthew 25:31 – 46 Speaks of the “same timeline”.

 

Also, the Millennial Reign Jews which consists of “sinners” too on the earth at that time (e.g. Isaiah 65:20, KJV) are only saved on Judgment Day based on their works/”fruit” as Matthew 25:14 – 30 Describes.

 

So, it’s unlikely that all three passages in Matthew 25 namely Matthew 25:1 – 13, Matthew 25:14 – 30 and Matthew 25:31 – 46  Speak of only the Christian Salvation but rather may be indicating the 1000 years timeline as per the Chiliasm Doctrine in First Christianity which seems to match it best.

 

2) Revelation 21:24 – 27 mentions “nations who are saved” which only occurs post-judgment Day because Revelation 21:27 refers to this as “those whose names are in the Book of Life” referring to Revelation 20:11 – 15’s Judgment Day Timeline as Christians or “the Bride” are clearly mentioned to be different in Revelation 21:9 – 10 here.

 

3) Both John 5:28 – 29 and Daniel 12:2 seem to Speak of a righteous rising from the dead simultaneously with the wicked. If literal, this cannot refer to the Christian Resurrection because Christians only Rise alone according to Revelation 20:5 or Revelation 20:7 which implies that the Second Resurrection is 1000 years later and could have a second badge of righteous likewise.

 

In comparison, in these same chapters the Christian Salvation may have been Described in John 5 in John 5:24 – 25 without Judgment while in Daniel 12 as the “Wise who start to Shine like the Heavens with those who convert others to righteousness as the stars” at that time as Written in Daniel 12:3 instead.

 

 

 

 

Possibility here:

 

Daniel 12:2 = some non-Christians saved while some non-Christians condemned when they ‘rise simultaneously’ in the Second Resurrection

 

Daniel 12:3 = the Christians who are “Wise who start to Shine like the Heavens with those who convert others to righteousness as the stars” at that time during this Second Resurrection Timeline as they are already saved 1000 years earlier.

 

and likewise

 

John 5:24 – 25 = Christians who Rise at the “hour now is” (First hour of the Last Day without Judgment) to be part of the First Resurrection

 

John 5:28 – 29 = some non-Christians saved while some non-Christians condemned when they ‘rise simultaneously’ in the Second Resurrection at the “hour which is coming” on the ‘Last day’ (end of this day, separated by 1000 years).

 

If each word is to have a meaning, the phrase ” in “… the hour is coming, and now is,…” in the Verse “… the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. …” (John 5:25, NKJV) could refer to ‘those who live or saved‘ as:

 

  1. i) ‘the hour now is’ (referring to the Last Day as it’s Resurrection Context) = START of the 1000 years Millennial Reign for the First Badge of Righteous = Christian Salvation

 

  1. ii) i) ‘the hour is coming’ (referring to the Last Day as it’s Resurrection Context) = END of the 1000 years Millennial Reign into start of Judgment Day for second badge of righteous = non-Christian Salvation for some

 

The similar phrase “… the hour is coming, and now is,…” in John 4:23 in the Context of Worshipping God in “Spirit and Truth” may thus actually point to when we are Resurrected as these two badges of righteous only fully know the truth on ‘after their Resurrection’ as ‘no one knows everything fully from here as even Blessed Apostle St. Paul himself said he sees dimly only’ (in 1 Corinthians 13:12).

 

 

 

4) Some who are “thirsty” (thirsty most likely refers to not believing fully yet as per John 7:37 – 39 in comparison) are given the Water of Life only on Judgment Day as Revelation 21:6 Writes. It’s unlikely that Christians saved 1000 years earlier (as you claim too) are still thirsty for 1000 years as Christians thirst no more upon their Resurrection as implied clearly in the same John 7:37 – 39 itself.

 

Please note that the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which all Christians participate according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18 in one Gathering of the Elect happens on  the “Old Earth and Heavens” which is 1000 years before Judgment Day (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7, Revelation 20:11 – 15).

 

In comparison, the ‘thirsty ones’ given the ‘water of life freely’ in Revelation 21:6 most likely cannot be the same ones who “overcome” as mentioned in Revelation 21:7 as the thirsty ones sounds like they are much lower whilst the one who “overcomes must have faith” in comparison of the word “Thirsty” which indicates lack of believing as per John 7:37 – 39 too and thus may not be the same group either.

 

In 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42, it’s clear that there are two types of Resurrection bodies mentioned in the Context of the Resurrection of the Dead (1 Corinthians 15:42) namely the “Celestial” (Heavenly) Vs the “Terrestrial” (Earthly) of which I conjecture that the  Celestial one refers to Christians only because only they become one flesh with Christ (as Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 Reveals) while the rest are only earthly bodies as Christ does “not” become One Flesh with them as it’s only towards His Bride.

 

Please also notice very carefully in 1 Corinthians 15:40 that two types of “Glory” are mentioned for the final Resurrection Bodies namely “but the GLORY of the CELESTIAL is one,” Vs ” and the GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another.” (in 1 Corinthians 15:40).

 

 

 

 

 

Now the word “Glory” in “… GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another …” (mentioned clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:40) in this Context of “Resurrection of the Dead” (1 Corinthians 15:42)  itself indicates that some of the of the TERRESTRIAL RESURRECTION BODIES are also “Saved” for it doesn’t seem logical for a body raised with “glory” to be “unsaved“. To say that this “Terrestrial Glory” ones refers to some lower Christians contradicts Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 which describes Christ Sharing One Flesh with all Christians in some way and so they must be “CELESTIAL (Heavenly) RESURRECTION GLORY Bodies only“.

 

Also, in this Same Chapter the word “we” in “…  WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE of the HEAVENLY MAN. …” (1 Corinthians 15:49) refers only to “Christians”  who are called here as “Heavenly Man” meaning “CELESTIAL (Heavenly) RESURRECTION GLORY Bodies only” again so if some Christians have only “… GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another …” (1 Corinthians 15:40) type of Resurrection Body (1 Corinthians 15:42), it’s a clear contradiction.

 

Also the phrase here in 1 Corinthians 15:42 comparing these two types of Glory of Celestial (Heavenly) Vs Terrestrial (Earthly) as “another” clearly implies that these are speaking of two classes of Resurrection Bodies distinctly where the word “Glory” indicates these are among the “saved” most likely.

 

The Bible Verses in Revelation 21:24 – 27 also matches where they are called “NATIONS WHO ARE SAVED who have KINGS OF THE EARTH” (where the word “earth” refers to “Terrestrial” clearly in Revelation 21:24 – 27) and they visit the “Bride” (Heavenly/Celestial Christians, Revelation 21:9 – 10) through the Gates of that Heavenly Jerusalem which occurs clearly after Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 – 15) when the Book of Life is Revealed (Revelation 21:27) which seem to point to these two “saved” groups as different.

 

Also Revelation 22:17 is the strongest evidence that these “thirsty ones” who are given the ‘Water of life freely’ at that time which is after Judgment Day as it’s only on the New Earth and Heavens (Revelation 21:1)  most likely cannot be Christians simply because “the Bride” (or Christians themselves) are calling toward them to take the Water of Life freely in Revelation 22:17  literally.

 

I could be wrong but reading these Verses literally seem to point this as a “possibility” and when God Reveals it One Day I accept it either way.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

If Almsgiving Removes the Judgment of Sins then why need Christ?

 

Source Post:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161355854752784

 

Example Question

 

Alms are good, obviously, and are linked to righteousness, a characteristic of righteousness, hence the common word. However, to come to the conclusion that alms can get you to heaven is false. If it were true, Christ didn’t need to be crucified.

 

Reply

 

This is a very common ‘protestant fallacy’ because the same way they preach that ‘holiness’ does not Contradict the Work of Christ but we are to do it, Almsgiving Doctrine may be understood likewise.

 

In light of Christ’s Quotes we understand that the “Charity Doctrine” removes the “Judgment of Sins”  but it cannot give new life nor give Resurrection. Only the Blood of Christ Can Remove Sin itself and bring us to the Resurrection Life beginning within us on earth itself. So only Christ’s Atonement and Work Gives us Life. The Almsgiving stops the ‘Judgment of Sins’, nothing more as that’s the Context meant in Tobit or elsewhere in Verses quoted here (even in Christ’s Parable of the Rich Man and Beggar Lazarus too which Speaks of this absence of Charity Doctrine leads straight to Hell in Luke 16:19 – 31) by which even Lazarus can be ‘spared of that Judgment’ too.

 

Please bear in mind that Lazarus went to Comfort Regions called Abraham’s Bosom even before Christ’s Work on the Cross and best is, CHRIST HIMSELF TAUGHT THIS IN LUKE 16:19 – 31 in the Context of “Almsgiving” or Charity Doctrine Lifestyle which was absent in the Rich Man causing him to go to “Hell” (Hades’ Punishment Regions).

 

So these Regions of Comfort are just Spirit World Regions which a soul could be rewarded to be but to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, it cannot be without a Bodily Resurrection which is only possible with Christ’s Work and His Mercy.

 

Note: A Parable cannot use imaginary things and so Christ’s Description of “Hades” having a “comfort region called Abraham’s Bosom” and a ‘punishment’ region called “Hell” usually must be true.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Are those who never Heard the Gospel Saved by Works?

 

 

Source Post:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161355976822784

 

Example Question

 

Discussion Topic: It’s recorded that Christianity did not reach the shores of Japan until the 16th century. So prior to the arrival of the Gospel, how were the millions of Japanese who lived during the 1,500 years after Christ saved since they could be saved by no other name under heaven and faith comes through hearing the word of God?

 

How does this prove the often stated argument that “God wants everybody to be saved”? If that’s the case, why did God decree for the Gospel to take 1500 years to get to Japan?

 

God decreed that island to remain in darkness for roughly 1500 years without the light of the Gospel and the knowledge of Christ.

 

Reply

 

“… 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. …” (Romans 2:14 – 16, NKJV)

 

Comment: Please notice that the Verses above point that

 

1) This applies to those who never heard the Gospel or had the Law case

 

2) They’re judged based on conscience according to  “their works”

 

3) So if by works, there is “no” faith right especially since they never heard the Gospel?

 

4) Please also notice that they’re “not” said to have no hope or cast straight to hell but rather are judged based on “works” first to decide the “Judgment of Sins” can be “accused or excused”.

 

5) So if they are excused, then the “believing after seeing possibility” (John 6:40) may thus apply to them causing them to be saved, right?

 

6) If “no” one can be saved in this manner, then Scripture here would have just said that there is “no” hope at all, right? But this is not said but rather it is implied that some may have that hope of being “excused” based on “their works”.

 

7) If such a thing is possible in the Spirit World or Judgment Day as implied in these Verses, then surely it means post-mortem believing after seeing Salvation “possibility” can thus happen if God Wills in other cases too, right?

 

Conclusion

 

Again, I am “not” saying it must be so but it’s “possible” but Let God Decide One Day and whatever it is, we accept it though we may “not” fully understand it now.

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Believing after Seeing and the Saved Surprised Sheep of the Nations Possibilities

 

As I see consider these “Possibilities” with the Chiliasm Timeline,

 

1) Millennial Reign

 

The 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ happens with the First Resurrection which is meant only for Christians be it thirty, sixty or Hundredfold ones (Revelation 20:4 – 6).

 

2) Judgment Day

 

1000 years after that (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7)  Judgment Day occurs for the rest of the dead (Revelation 20:11 – 15) where some of the Millennial Reign mortal sinners may be saved too (Isaiah 65:20, Matthew 25:14 – 30) where some could be saved on Judgment Day too (Isaiah 45:22 – 25, Zephaniah 3:8 – 13) especially since it is seems to point to a ‘sinless people after that who do no unrighteousness’ (Zephaniah 3:13) which contradicts the Millennial Reign Timeline people (which some Christians propose) who are still mortal or sinners (Isaiah 65:20 KJV mentions this clearly). The case of the ‘Surprised Sheep’ who are Saved only on Judgment Day from the “nations” based on the Charity Doctrine they Practiced toward “My Brethren” (Matthew 12:50) can mean this as whether they helped the Millennial Reign mortal Israel and/or mortal Christians in their lifetime when one was ‘… Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ (Matthew 26:31 – 46) as the KING Says, ‘… as you did it to the least of these, you did it to Me …’ (Matthew 25:40). The possibility of receiving Christians can be equal to receiving Christ (Matthew 10:40) may allow for such a hope as the next Verse Says immediately that this could mean the ‘reward of receiving a righteous man’ (in Matthew 10:41).

 

3) Mercy Triumphs Over Judgment for some

 

This is not Salvation by works but a special Mercy shown in Judgment according to what level of Mercy in the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle which one practiced especially toward Christians which one did first in their mortal lives as James 2:13 indicates. James 2:13’s Context for “Mercy” refers to the “Love your neighbour as yourself” which fulfills “All Law” (James 2:8) which Apostle St. James himself points to as referring to only the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle in immediate consecutive Verses in James 2:14 – 18 where he connects it to ‘works of faith next’ where other works of faith are possible but not written here.

Mysteriously James 2:13 seems to imply two things, namely No Mercy for one who didn’t practice the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle of Mercy in Action and to the ones who Practiced this Mercy in Action in the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle, “Mercy can triumph over and end their Judgment”. Believing after seeing possibility comes in place next as John 3:14 – 15 Indicates to Christ When He has been “Lifted Up” and after the Resurrection can “Draw all men to Him” after being “Lifted Up from the Earth” indicating post-mortem and/or Judgment Day Salvation hope in that Context too as John 12:32 Mysteriously Echoes toward the “all men whom Christ Draws” (1 Timothy 4:10 also indicates a broader “all men” to Whom God is Declared a Saviour where “especially believers” indicates a subset). If true, John 10:16’s Sheep of the other fold could indicate these ‘Judgment Day Charity Doctrine Practicing people who did it to Christ’s Brethren or Christians/Millennial Reign Jews’  (as they’re called ‘sheep’ too in Matthew 25:31 – 46) who are ‘just saved on Judgment Day as they are Surprised too’ which seems unlikely to point to any Christian Elect Salvation which occurred 1000 years earlier with the Marriage of the Lamb (Matthew 25:1 – 13, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36,  1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, Revelation 19:7 – 9 where these only occur after the destruction of the final antichrist, Revelation 19:11 – 21). The non-Elect Salvation possibility which occurs ‘after the Wedding Feast (or Christian-Elect Salvation)’ during or after the Millennial Reign Timeline in the ‘Second and Third Watches’ too (in Luke 12:31 – 38) together with the ‘Special Mercy for the POOR, BLIND, MAIMED’ to participate later may be inferred from Christ’s Parable of the Wedding Feast in Luke 14:21 – 24 which was compared against the Christian-Elect Salvation on the condition of the Charity Doctrine in Luke 14:12 – 14 first. This non-Elect Salvation may include where the ‘Gospel Seed’ was not sown too (Matthew 25:24, 26).

 

4) Believing after Seeing

 

Believing after seeing possibility elaborated. Regarding “unbelievers” being judged into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8), Christ Was Harsh toward Jewish Unbelievers in the Context of them “Seeing Him (literally) and still not believing” (John 6:36). Immediately in the next Verse, Christ Tells them that All that the Father Gives Him who come to Him, He Will not cast out (John 6:37) which includes these Surprised Sheep on Judgment Day too (Matthew 25:31 – 46) which can mean ‘Believing after seeing  Him in the Spirit World when they come to Him in person there or on Judgment Day (Last Day)’ because John 6:36 – 37 seem to point strongly comparing “literal seeing of Christ to believe Him or not”. Christ then Declares the Will of the Father which is one to “see and believe Him” (in John 6:39 – 40) where the Context of “Seeing” here may be compared to include or specially focus on the “literal seeing and believing” (because John 6:36 sets this Context strongly first) where up to the “Last Day” (Judgment Day this ‘seeing and believing’ could be available likewise) not just to these ‘Surprised Merciful Sheep’ only (Matthew 25:31 – 46) but also to ‘others who may be Saved without honour’ (as the Mysterious Book of 1Enoch , Chapter 50, Verses 1 to 5 possibly quoted by Apostle Jude  points). The “Last Day” (7th Day) can refer to the 1000 years Millennial Reign Sabbath Rest Timeline where the Christian Elect Salvation by Faith via believing without seeing (Hebrews 11:1) occurs at the start of this Last Day as the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6) while the “believing after seeing possibility Salvation” (John 6:36 – 40) may thus apply to “some” merciful ones such as the ‘Surprised Sheep’ (Matthew 25:31 – 46) who “Did Good” but Raised simultaneously with the wicked (John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2) which cannot refer to the Christian First Resurrection Salvation where there is “no” simultaneous resurrection of the Wicked 1000 years earlier (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which then indicates that this must be at the ‘End of this Last Day, 1000 years later when Judgment Day begins’ (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7) as Christ might have Meant Collectively to be Raised Up (“Resurrected”) during this entire ‘Last Day 1000 years time period’ (start and end respectively as suggested here) agreeing with John 6:40’s Believing after Seeing possibility with other Verses quoted here too collectively.

 

 

5) Saved ones from the Nations on Judgment Day

 

Revelation 21:24 – 27 indicates that these “Saved from the nations” ones may thus inherit the New Earth  (Revelation 21:1 as the old earth is too small to contain so many people and has no sea and has never been touched with sin) where these includes the “kings of the earth” (indicating most likely non-Christians) because Christians are the “Bride inside this New Jerusalem City” (Revelation 21:2) which descends and connects to earth (Revelation 21:9 – 10) where these “people who are just saved from the nations on Judgment Day in Revelation 21:24 – 28” (again indicates non-Christians such as the ‘Surprised Sheep’ as Christians are already Saved 1000 years earlier, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:31 – 46) bring their “glory and honour” into “it” referring to this ‘New Jerusalem City’ whose Gates are not shut and this is not the Millennial Reign Timeline as the “Lamb’s Book of Life Judgment has been Revealed and is only revealed on Judgment Day” (Revelation 21:27, Revelation 20:11 – 15). Please also notice that Revelation 21:24 – 27 indicates that these newly saved ones from Judgment Day just “Visit” the “New Jerusalem City” (lowest Heaven) and they are indicated to be the “saved from nations and from the earth entering this city” pointing to them inheriting outside on the earth only (as these ‘Surprised Merciful Sheep’ could be the ‘Meek’ whom Christ Said would inherit this New Earth, Matthew 5:5 and Mercy toward those who are ‘Merciful in life earlier too’, Matthew 5:7). Another indicator that these could be different from Christians is based on Revelation 22:17 where “God” (the Spirit) and Christians (the Bride) seems to invite those “who thirst” (possibly these Saved ones from the Nations as the Bride cannot be calling itself) to take the “Water of Life freely” indicating these may just be Saved at that time on Judgment Day when these things Happen.

 

 

 

6) Bible Verses Quoted here for reference

“… 4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. …”(Revelation 20:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

“… 7Now when the thousand years have expired, … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. …  15And ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. …” (Revelation 20:7, 11 – 12, 15, NKJV)

 

“… There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the SINNER being an hundred years old shall be accursed. …” (Isaiah 65:20, KJV)

 

“… 14“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 24“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ …”(Matthew 25:14 – 30, NKJV)

 

“… Who has declared this from ancient time?

Who has told it from that time?

Have not I, the Lord?

And there is no other God besides Me,

A just God and a Savior;

There is none besides Me.

22“LOOK TO ME and BE SAVED,

All you ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.

23I have sworn by Myself;

The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,

And shall not return,

That to Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW,

EVERY TONGUE SHALL TAKE AN OATH. …” (Isaiah 45:21 – 23, NKJV)

 

“… 8“Therefore wait for Me,” says the Lord,

“Until the day I rise up [d]for plunder;

My determination is to GATHER THE NATIONS

To My assembly of kingdoms,

To pour on them My indignation,

ALL MY FIERCE ANGER;

All the earth shall be devoured

With the fire of My jealousy.

9“For then I WILL RESTORE TO THE PEOPLES a PURE [E]LANGUAGE,

That THEY ALL MAY CALL ON THE NAME of the LORD, To SERVE HIM WITH ONE ACCORD. …” (Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

“… The remnant of Israel shall do NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS And speak NO LIES, NOR shall a DECEITFUL TONGUE be found in their mouth; For they shall feed their flocks and lie down, And no one shall make them afraid.” …” (Zephaniah 3:13, NKJV)

“… 46While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” …” (Matthew 12: 46 – 50, NKJV)

“… 31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘LORD, WHEN DID WE SEE YOU HUNGRY and FEED YOU, OR THIRSTY AND GIVE YOU DRINK? 38When did we SEE YOU A STRANGER AND TAKE YOU IN, or NAKED AND CLOTHE YOU? 39Or when did we see YOU SICK, OR IN PRISON, AND COME TO YOU?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘ASSUREDLY, I SAY TO YOU, INASMUCH AS YOU DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DID IT TO ME.’ 41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I WAS HUNGRY AND YOU GAVE ME NO FOOD; I WAS THIRSTY AND YOU GAVE ME NO DRINK; 43I WAS A STRANGER and YOU DID NOT TAKE ME IN, NAKED and YOU DID NOT CLOTHE ME, SICK and IN PRISON AND YOU DID NOT VISIT ME.’ 44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when DID WE SEE YOU HUNGRY or THIRSTY OR A STRANGER OR NAKED OR SICK or in PRISON, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as YOU DID NOT DO IT to one of the least of these, you DID NOT DO IT TO ME.’ 46And THESE WILL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:31 – 46, NKJV)

“… 34Then PETER opened his mouth and said: “In TRUTH I perceive that GOD shows no partiality. 35But in EVERY NATION WHOEVER FEARS HIM and WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS is ACCEPTED BY HIM. …” (Acts 10:34 – 35, NKJV)

 

“… And the KING will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as YOU DID IT to ONE OF THE LEAST of THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DI IT TO ME.’ …” (Matthew 25:40, NKJV)

“…40“He who receives you receives Me, … 41He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:40 – 42, highlighted phrases, NKJV)

The phrase “…40“He who receives you receives Me, …” (Matthew 10:40) might be the same meaning as “… 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren [Christians before the Millennial Reign & Millennial Reign mortal Jews], ye have done it unto me. …” (Matthew 25:40). Can you see this Possibility?

 

Also the phrase “…  40For he who is not against us is on our side …” (Mark 9:40) where Christ Generalizes beyond the ‘Believing in Christ miracle worker from another denomination analogy’ (Mark 9:39) to include even those “… 41For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. …” (Mark 9:41) points to this possibility too as good non-Christians who are kind to Christians being ‘not against them’ may ‘actually be on their side’ & hence inherit this Mercy & Reward shown to them as these Verses could mean that directly when taken together.

 

“… For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. …”(James 2:13, NKJV)

 

“… 8If you really FULFILL the ROYAL LAW according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; … For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. 14What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [f]your works, and I will show you my faith by [g]my works. …” (James 2:8, 13 – 18, NKJV)

 

“…  14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the SON of MAN be LIFTED UP, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. …” (John 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 32And I, if I be LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. …” (John 12:32 – 33, KJV)

 

 

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; … 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …  9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 11These things COMMAND and TEACH.  … (1 Timothy 2:1, 3 – 7, 4:9 – 11, KJV)

 

“… And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 10:16, NKJV)

 

“… 1“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6“And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom [a]is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. 11“Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour [b]in which the Son of Man is coming. …” (Matthew 25:1 – 13, NKJV)

 

“… 4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION. OVER SUCH THE SECOND DEATH has NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS. ….” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, NKJV)

“… 13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. …” (1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, NKJV)

Note: ‘the rest of the dead’ do “not” have this Hope (Context for 1 Thessalonians 4:13) of Participating in the “First Resurrection” as indicated by the phrase “… the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. …” (1 Thessalonians 4:16 – 17) which is the ‘Elect Salvation for Christians only’.

“… 6And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” …” (Revelation 19:6 – 9, NKJV)

“… 11Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. …  20Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.  …”(Revelation 19:11 – 13, 20 – 21, NKJV)

“… 34JESUS ANSWERED and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that AGE (Aeon/Olam), and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 20:4 – 6), NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; 36nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. …” (Luke 20:34 – 36, NKJV)

“…12Then He also said to him who invited Him, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, NOR RICH NEIGHBORS, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. 13But when you give a feast, INVITE the POOR, THE MAIMED, THE LAME, THE BLIND. 14And you will be BLESSED, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be REPAID at the RESURRECTION OF THE JUST.” …” (Luke 14:12 – 14, NKJV)

“… 21So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the STREETS and LANES of the city, and bring in here the POOR and the MAIMED and the LAME and the BLIND.’ 22And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still THERE IS ROOM.’ 23Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the HIGHWAYS and HEDGES, and COMPEL THEM to COME IN, that MY HOUSE MAY BE FILLED. 24For I say to you that NONE of those men who were INVITED shall taste MY SUPPER.’ ” …” (Luke 14:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

“… 31“But SEEK HIS KINGDOM, and THESE THINGS will be ADDED TO YOU. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33“SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS and GIVE TO CHARITY; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 35“Be dressed in readiness, and KEEP YOUR LAMPS LIT. 36You are also to be like people who are waiting for their master when he RETURNS FROM THE WEDDING FEAST, so that they may immediately open the door for him when he comes and knocks. 37Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will [z]prepare himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and he will come up and serve them. 38Whether he COMES IN THE [AA]SECOND WATCH, or EVEN IN THE [AB]THIRD, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:31 – 38, NASB)

Note: The Second and Third Watch could refer to the Millennial Reign Timeline after His Second Coming toward the “Last Day” into the Judgment Day as the phrase “… .RETURNS FROM THE WEDDING FEAST …” can refer to it. So these Verses itself demonstrate why the “Charity Doctrine” is so important for the “Treasures in Heaven part as part of Seeking His Kingdom” Described by the Most Blessed Saviour Himself in Verses above (please notice the words “Charity” , “second” and “third watch” etc. Carefully in the above). Also the mysterious phrase “… RETURNS FROM THE WEDDING FEAST …” together with the phrases “… 38Whether he COMES IN THE [AA]SECOND WATCH, or EVEN IN THE [AB]THIRD, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. …” can refer to the non-Elect Salvation during the “Last Day”(or Millennial Reign Timeline, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:31 – 46 etc.) simply because the “Wedding Feast” is over by then which refers to the “First Resurrection” which is 1000 years before “Judgment Day”.

“… Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:24, NKJV)

“… But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. …” (Matthew 25:26, NKJV)

 

“…  But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” … “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. …” (Revelation 21:8 – 10, 24 – 27, NKJV)

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

Yes the definition of “unbelievers” may only refer to those who have “seen Christ” but yet choose not to believe as His Words Echo here “… 36But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.  …” (John 6:36, NKJV). In this same Topic/Context, Christ Continues “… 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. … 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” …” (John 6:37, 40, NKJV) which since He Contrast with John 6:36 it may point to the “believing after seeing Him” as John 6:40 calls it the “Will of the Father” which causes “Everlasting Life” which can refer to Spirit World Salvation (1 Peter 4:6 too) because some may “See Him” only after they die and this Salvation is Said to be available till the “Last Day” (in John 6:40).

The “Last Day” is the Judgment Day Timeline or by the End of the Millennial Reign Timeline and so it is “Possible” that it can include both the ‘Spirit World’ Salvation from now till then for some (e.g. if 1 Peter 4:6 means this as some claim) or it can refer to the ‘one last chance on Judgment Day or Last Day to see Him & Believe for everlasting life’ (John 6:40 with Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, Isaiah 45:21 – 23 with the Book of 1Enoch quote could mean this as discussed in earlier posts*). We also see that these Gentile Righteous or the “Surprised Sheep” Saved only on Judgment Day (Matthew 25:31 – 46) did the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Acts toward the “Millennial Reign Jews” but also toward “Christians” who are Christ’s Brothers and Sisters (Matthew 12:50).

 

“… 7Now when the thousand years have expired, … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. …  15And ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. …” (Revelation 20:7, 11 – 12, 15, NKJV)

 

“… 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. …” (John 5:28 – 29, NKJV)

 

“… And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. …”(Daniel 12:2, NKJV)

 

“… 5Blessed are the MEEK, For they shall INHERIT THE [a]EARTH. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7Blessed are the MERCIFUL,

For they shall OBTAIN MERCY.  …” (Matthew 5:5, 7, NKJV)

 

“… And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. …” – apostle John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

Where possibly:  The Spirit = God,  The Bride = Christians,  “who thirsts” = some non-Christians who are being Saved on Judgment Day (e.g. Revelation 21:24 – 27, Matthew 25:31 – 46, Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, Isaiah 45:21 – 23 quoted earlier).

7) First Christianity Quotes

 

  1. i) Chiliasm Timeline Order example where ‘ALL CHRISTIANS’ (thirty, Sixty or hundredfold level inheritance) Participate in the First Resurrection

 

“… But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: ‘For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create’…For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ is connected with this subject [2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4]. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10]; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place [Revelation 20:11 – 15]. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36] …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, CHAPTER LXXXI)

 

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

  1. ii) Possible Hope for non-Christians who were Merciful toward Christians with the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle

“… Also, by this which this servant dared to say, “Thou reapest where thou sowedst not,” [Matthew 25:26] we understand that the Lord accepts the good life of the Gentiles and of the Philosophers. …” –  Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD)

Source [ Patristic Bible Commentary, Catena Aurea, Matthew 25:14 – 30, P. 853 ]:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/matthew-commentary/catena-aurea-on-matthew/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6/chapter-7/chapter-8/chapter-9/chapter-10/chapter-11/chapter-12/chapter-13/chapter-14/chapter-15/chapter-16/chapter-17/chapter-18/chapter-19/chapter-20/chapter-21/chapter-22/chapter-23/chapter-24/chapter-25

iii) St. Irenaeous of Lyons hinting on both the First Resurrection and the Second Resurrection to have a separate badge of ‘sheep/righteous’ too

 

Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons calls the “First Resurrection followed by the Millennial Reign of 1000 years” as the “Times of the Kingdom” referring also to these Verses in Luke 12:35 – 48 too in quote below:

“… This is what the Lord declared: “Happy are those servants whom the Lord when He cometh shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down [to meat], and will come forth and serve them. And if He shall come in the evening watch, and find them so, blessed are they, because He shall make them sit down, and minister to them; or if this be in the second, or it be in the third, blessed are they.” [Luke 12:35 – 48]. Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.” [Revelation 20:4 – 6] Then, too, Isaiah has declared the TIME when THESE EVENTS shall OCCUR; he says: “And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth.” [Isaiah 6:11 – 13]. Then Daniel also says this very thing: “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting [age-during till the end of this age during the LAST DAY for 1000 years, Daniel 7:27], and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: “And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days [Daniel 12] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXIV, Point 2)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

The phrase “you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding,” (in Luke 12:36, NKJV) “And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.” (Luke 12:38, NKJV) clearly implies that these Verses linked clearly to ‘servants’ mentioned in Matthew 25:14 – 30’s   “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,” (Matthew 25:14, NKJV) points to the ‘Millennial Reign Time Period of 1000 years’ as the phrase “when he will return from the wedding” in Luke 12:36 (implies that these are the ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ who are NOT part of His Wedding with His Bride/Church) who are already Saved first (Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:1 – 13) but the rest rejected (Matthew 7:20 – 23) and the Lord may Visit the Earth at least ‘three times or in three watches’ as the phrase “And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch” in Luke 12:38 means as the result of them being rewarded for ‘good works’ at the End of this 1000 years in the Second Resurrection as the ‘Second Badge of Righteous too’ (Matthew 25:20 – 23, Revelation 20:11 – 15).

 

 

 

Indeed, these may be the Mysterious ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ where Christ Reaped (as whatever He Reaps is unto Salvation, Matthew 13:30) even where He Sowed not [the Gospel Seed, Matthew 25:24, Matthew 25:26] whose Judgment is based on ‘Good Works’ only (John 5:28 – 29, Matthew 25:31 – 40, Revelation 20:11 – 15) as His Mercy may be Extended to them (Romans 9:15) which occurs during this ‘Second Resurrection’ after the 1000 years have ended (Revelation 20:5) as Blessed St. Irenaeous’ calls this time period as the “after the times of the kingdom”, to quote:

“… And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, “I saw a Great White Throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.”  [Revelation 20:11] And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the judgment, mentioning “the dead, great and small.” “The sea,” he says, “gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,” he says, “the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, ACCORDING to THEIR WORKS; and Death and hell [Hades] were sent into the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH.” [Revelation 20:11 – 15] Now this is what is called GEHENNA [Matthew 10:28], which the Lord styled eternal [AGE-DURING] fire [Matthew 25:31 – 46]. “And if any one,” it is said, “was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the LAKE of FIRE. [Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8] … ” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 140 – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35:2) Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

Here is another quote of Blessed St. Irenaeous which agrees to this ‘Second Badge of Righteous by Works only’ toward ‘all the remaining dead in the tombs’ as Christ Spoke in John 5:28 – 29 in the ‘hour to come’ on the Last Day (i.e. ‘whoever’ that is not resurrected in body yet in the First Resurrection, Revelation 20:5):

 

“… Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal [age-during] things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XIII, Point 1)
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

An Important Comment: As demonstrated, this ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ being raised to life [i.e. Soul given a Body, Bodily Resurrection] during these “after the times of the kingdom” on Judgment Day at the end of the 1000 years Millennial Reign is not referring to any Christian at all as Blessed St. Irenaeous’ earlier own quote clearly proved that he understood that all the Christians [i.e. of thirty, sixty or hundredfold fruit] are reaped in the First Resurrection itself. So, the ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ must refer to the Rejected Christians and non-Christian righteous, i.e. toward anyone who did “good works” among ‘all those who remain in the tomb’ [i.e. souls whose body still has not been raised] as Christ Remarked too in John 5:28 – 29.

 

  1. iv) St. Hippolytus of Rome seems also to indicate two badge of righteous in two resurrections

 

” … Moreover, concerning the resurrection and the kingdom of the saints, Daniel says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall arise, some to everlasting [age-during] life, (and some to shame and everlasting [age-during] contempt, Daniel 12:2).” Esaias says, “The dead men shall arise, and they that are in their tombs shall awake; for the dew from thee is healing to them.” The Lord says, “Many in that day shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.” And the prophet says, “Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” And John says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power.” [Revelation 20:6] For the second death is the lake of fire that burneth. And again the Lord says, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun shineth in his glory.” And to the saints He will say, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”  But what saith He to the wicked? “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [age-during] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, which my Father hath prepared.” [Matthew 25:41] And John says, “Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie; for your part is in the hell of fire.” [Revelation 21:8] And in like manner also Esaias: “And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. And their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be for a spectacle to all flesh.” [Isaiah 66:24] – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 65)

 

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus-christ.html

 

 

 

 

 

Please note carefully how Hippolytus distinguishes between those from the ‘General Resurrection’ vs those from the ‘First Resurrection’ whilst discussing the Great White Throne of Judgment in the quote above:

 

How do I know that Hippolytus referred to the ‘General Resurrection’ when he quotes Daniel 12:2 as it is not so clear especially since he seems to quote both Verses which refer to the First & Second Resurrection in the same paragraph above? To quote:

 

 

Hippolytus was one of the Church of Rome’s greatest early theologians according to The Catholic Encyclopedia. Notice what he wrote in the early third century:

 

“… For concerning the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the kingdom of the saints, Daniel says: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [age-during] life, and some to shame and everlasting [age-during] contempt.” And Isaiah says: “The dead shall rise, and those in the tombs shall awake, and those in the earth shall rejoice.” And our Lord says: “Many in that [Last] Day shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live … ” (Hippolytus. On the End of the World, Chapter XXXVI. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1886. Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight).

 

Or the same quote above may be found in an online link below (by the Famous Respected Christian Protestant Historian, Mr. Philip Schaff himself):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.v.i.xxxvi.html

Yes, Hippolytus himself referred to the hope which is NOT possible for others but the Christian dead ONLY (in 1 Thessalonians 4:13) to refer to the ‘First Resurrection’ or the ‘Resurrection of the Just only’ (tying up 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17 to Revelation 20:4 – 6 & Luke 14:14) agreeing perfectly to our exegesis in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20 as well, as NO Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, to quote:

“… Concerning the RESURRECTION of the RIGHTEOUS, Paul also speaks thus in writing to the Thessalonians: “We would not have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (and) remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice and trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive (and) remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18] …” – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 66)

 

Source: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.iv.ii.i.html

 

 

  1. Can the ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ refer to ‘non-Christian good & fallen Christians too’?

 

Hence I may speculate (with First Christianity quote as proof as discussed in posts prior) that this Second Badge of Righteous are Saved by His Mercy according to their “Good Works only” which may primarily refer to ‘non Christian relatively good’ (as He reaps them to Salvation, Matthew 13:30 from among those whom He did not plant the Seed of the Gospel, Matthew 25:24, Matthew 25:26) which may also include some of the ‘rejected Christians prior if they did show some ‘oil’ or ‘good works’ toward their fellow men’, to quote (an example quote from a previous discussion):

 

“… Come, ye friends of the poor and the stranger. Come, ye who kept my love, as I am love. Come, ye who possess peace, for I own that peace. Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you, ye who esteemed not riches, ye who had compassion on the poor, who aided the orphans, who helped the widows, who gave drink to the thirsty, who fed the hungry, who received strangers, who clothed the naked, who visited the sick, who comforted those in prison, who helped the blind, … Then shall the King of kings make answer again, and say to them, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Inasmuch as ye have received those of whom I have already spoken to you, and clothed them, and fed them, and gave them to drink, I mean the poor who are my members, ye have done it unto me. But come ye into the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; enjoy for ever and ever that which is given you by my Father in heaven, and the holy and quickening Spirit. …” – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD)

 

Source [Appendix, XLII, XLIV]:

 

https://www.worthychristianlibrary.com/ante-nicene-fathers/hippolytus-contappendix-to-the-works-of-hippolytus-cont/

 

Or the same quote above may be found in an online link below (by the Famous Respected Christian Protestant Historian, Mr. Philip Schaff himself):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.v.i.xlii.html

 

Blessed Hippolytus of Rome further explains that Christ looks to have Mercy according to how one has shown Mercy in their lives first toward ‘all men’ or ‘each man’ (Matthew 5:7) in his quote continued from the above as seen toward the wicked next:

“… Cleave to me, to whom every knee boweth, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth. For all who have been negligent, and have not shown pity in well-doing there, have nothing else due them than the unquenchable fire. For I am the friend of man, but yet also a righteous Judge to all. For I shall award the recompense according to desert; I shall give the reward to all, according to each man’s labour; I shall make return to all, according to each man’s conflict. I wish to have pity, but I see no oil in your vessels. I desire to have mercy, but ye have passed through life entirely without mercy. I long to have compassion, but your lamps are dark by reason of your hardness of heart. Depart from me. For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy. (Jam_2:13) …” – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD)

Source [Appendix, XLVII.]:

 

https://www.worthychristianlibrary.com/ante-nicene-fathers/hippolytus-contappendix-to-the-works-of-hippolytus-cont/

 

Or the same quote above may be found in an online link below (by the Famous Respected Christian Protestant Historian, Mr. Philip Schaff himself):

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.v.i.xlvii.html

 

The phrase ” I wish to have pity, but I see no oil in your vessels. I desire to have mercy, but ye have passed through life entirely without mercy.” strengthens our Context Claim that those who may have Practiced Mercy among these ‘non-Christians’ can Hope for His Mercy as Christ Seeks these ‘Works of Mercy’ in them (John 5:28 – 29, Revelation 20:11 – 15) in order to show any Mercy as Blessed St. Hippolytus’ quote above rings.

 

Note: Who was ‘Mr. Philip Schaff’?

 

Please visit this link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff

 

  1. v) Ambrosiaster on the definition of “All Men” used in Scripture to mean more than Christians only though “not” necessarily ‘all human beings’ and that the repenting of unbelief on Judgment Day and exercising the believing after seeing possibility may exist

 

“… If he stops there, he stops being blessed to become guilty and worthy of punishment. Yet he still retains some hope of amendment, because he is not impious, but simply sinful. … because if he does not then have a complete ruin, he is nevertheless worthy of punishment. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster

 

 

” … QUESTION 126. FROM THE ONE WHO RECEIVED THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. … In fact, the knowledge of God must inspire the fear of the just judge, in whose court he teaches us that the faithful will receive the reward of their righteousness, and the ungodly, that is to say the unbelievers, the just punishment of their infidelity. It is of all justice, indeed, that the good ones be filled with joy in the future life in which Jesus Christ must reign with his chosen ones. They have been exposed to scorn, outrages in this world where the devil reigns, they will appear surrounded by glory in the kingdom of Jesus Christ for which they have borne the contempt of the worldly. SINNERS, on the contrary, who seemed to shine here below a false brilliance, opposing falsehood to truth, have to wait for tribulation and an imaginary glory to succeed for them a contempt, a humiliation too real. The righteous will rejoice in having believed, when they witness the chastisements of the unbelieving, and THE UNFAITHFUL WILL REPENT of THEIR UNBELIEF ONLY when THEY SEE BOTH THEIR OWN CHASTISEMENT and the glory of those WHOSE FAITH THEY HAD REGARDED as an ACT of MADNESS, which was only worthy of their contempt. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

 

Source (for both quotes above):

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/ambrosiaster-questions-on-the-old-and-new-testaments/polemic

 

Note: Ambrosiaster is the name given to the unknown author of a commentary on the epistles of Saint Paul, written some time between 366 and 384 AD and even St. Augustine quoted him, link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosiaster

 

  1. vi) Book of 1Enoch’s ‘Salvation with no honour’ with ‘believing after seeing’ possibility to be offered on ‘Judgment Day’ itself agreeing to Ambrosiaster’s quote above too

 

“… 1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect, And the light of days shall abide upon them, And glory and honour shall turn to the holy, 2 ON THE DAY OF AFFLICTION on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits: And HE WILL CAUSE THE OTHERS TO WITNESS (this) THAT THEY MAY REPENT And FORGO THE WORKS OF THEIR HANDS. 3 They shall have NO HONOUR through the name of the Lord of Spirits, YET THROUGH HIS NAME SHALL THEY BE SAVED [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21], And THE LORD OF SPIRITS WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON THEM, For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement, And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself: At HIS JUDGEMENT THE UNREPENTANT SHALL PERISH before Him. 5 And FROM HENCEFORTH I will have NO MERCY on them, saith the Lord of Spirits. …” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 50)

Translation Source: http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

 

Please notice Carefully that this “Salvation with no honour” (hence not a Christian Salvation but possibly unbelievers or fallen Christians) happening on the “Day of Affliction” (Judgment Day) as mentioned in Quote above may refer to the “Saved by fire” case (1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15) after they have “their part” in the Lake of Fire first (Revelation 20:11 – 15).

Do these Verses and quotes mean that or not? God Alone Knows. Let’s see on Judgment Day.

 

vii) Hope Beyond via St. Ignatius of Antioch

Firstly, St. Ignatius of Antioch is quoting these “Bible Verses” in his quotes next, so I put it here for ‘Context Comparison’ and ‘how he quotes it’:

 

“…  14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the SON of MAN be LIFTED UP, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. …” (John 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 32And I, if I be LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. …” (John 12:32 – 33, KJV)

 

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; … 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …  9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 11These things COMMAND and TEACH.  … (1 Timothy 2:1, 3 – 7, 4:9 – 11, KJV)

 

So, can the phrase “All” or “ALL MEN” in John 12:32 or 1 Timothy 2:1, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 Timothy 4:10 mean more than Christians to  include non-Christians or possibly even ‘All human beings ever created’ eventually?

 

 

It is “possible” because the quotes by St. Ignatius of Antioch below  can mean that (or maybe I am erring by not understanding it to mean something more limited, hence I am “not” sure 100%) but an ‘Apostolic Father’ who is a ‘Direct disciple of Apostle St. John himself to make such an error’ looks pretty low chance unless we are misunderstanding him here (I leave it as a mystery as I really don’t know if it means all or ‘more than Christians only as Ambrosiaster’s quote earlier rings’ only God Knows), to quote:

 

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], DREW ALL MEN to Himself for their ETERNAL SALVATION [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND, and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

I am most likely wrong because the majority of Christians view these Verses differently but there’s a small chance this possibility could be true since the eschatology here is based on the Chiliasm Timeline which is the only eschatology which can be proven to be held by the direct disciples of the apostles or their disciples though the interpretation I give here may not match what they thought of it but we don’t know because their writings on these Verses did not survive and hence I speculate here. Regardless of God’s Decision One Day, we accept it and that’s why I don’t teach the above as Doctrine but rather as a “Possibility” only.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Book of 1Enoch – Is there Hope beyond the Lake of Fire? – It’s possible but highly unlikely

 

Objective: In light of St. Ignatius’ possible Universalistic quoting of 1 Timothy 2:4 and John 12:32, how is it “possible” with the Lake of Fire (“Gehenna”) Quote of “destroying body and soul” (in Matthew 10:28)? Could the “Saved by Fire” phrase in 1 Corinthians 3:15 be referring to a Salvation after undergoing the “Fire” referring to the “Lake of Fire” especially since 1 Corinthians 3:13 Declares this “Fire” to be “Declared on THAT DAY” which is most likely “Judgment Day”? Since “no” prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), that’s why I quote this Book of 1Enoch here to possibly understand the ‘Mystery of the Lake of Fire’ through this Book which was highly regarded by the First Christians (especially “First Jewish Christians” and some important Church Fathers and many Christians thought of it as “Scripture” too as we quote later).

 

 

0) Bible Verses and St. Ignatius of Antioch’s quote for reference first

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

“… 13each one’s work will become clear; FOR THE DAY will DECLARE it, because it will be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is BURNED, he will SUFFER LOSS; but he HIMSELF WILL  BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE. …” (1 Corinthians 3:13 -15, NKJV)

 

Note: Works that are “Burned” refers to “sin” and Works that are “Rewarded” refers to “Good Works”.

 

“…  14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the SON of MAN be LIFTED UP, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. …” (John 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 32And I, if I be LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. …” (John 12:32 – 33, KJV)

 

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; … 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …  9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 11These things COMMAND and TEACH.  … (1 Timothy 2:1, 3 – 7, 4:9 – 11, KJV)

 

“… knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV)

 

 

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], DREW ALL MEN to Himself for their ETERNAL SALVATION [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND, and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

 

1) Firstly what the Book of 1Enoch?

 

(as there are other Book of Enoch etc. which is not part of the dead sea scrolls but believed to be not original and we are “not” quoting any of that but only this one):

 

“… The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[note 1] Ge’ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ, maṣḥafa hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.[1][2] Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and Nephilim, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Genesis flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah. The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to 100 BC.[3] Various Aramaic fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as Koine Greek and Latin fragments, are proof that the Book of Enoch was known by Jews and early Near Eastern Christians. This book was also quoted by some 1st and 2nd century authors as in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. Authors of the New Testament were also familiar with some content of the story.[4] A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15, and is attributed there to “Enoch the Seventh from Adam” (1 Enoch 60:8), although this section of 1 Enoch is a midrash on Deuteronomy 33:2. Several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls.[2] . It is not part of the biblical canon used by Jews, apart from Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews). While the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church consider the Book of Enoch as canonical, other Christian groups regard it as non-canonical or non-inspired, but may accept it as having some historical or theological interest. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

 

Note: All the Sections I’m quoting in this post are from the “Book of Parables” part which is dated to be about 100 years before Christ (c. 100 BC) as it’s was discovered together in the “Dead Sea Scrolls discovery” as per the description above but some scholars tend to date it up to 200 AD or so and claiming that some content was by added by Christians. No one knows for sure.

 

2) Is it Canonical?

 

Most likely Blessed Apostle St. Jude quoted it in the Bible (Jude 1:14, Jude14) as this is the only ‘word to word’ match there is and so this part is certainly Scripture, to quote:

 

“… For the quotation from the Book of Watchers in the New Testament Epistle of Jude: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all who are ungodly among them of all their godless deeds which they have godlessly committed, and of all the harsh speeches which godless sinners have spoken against Him.” …”

 

Note: We don’t know for sure if the “Book of Parables” part is Scripture too or if the rest of the Book of Watchers is Scripture as well but it’s ‘possible’.

 

3) Church Fathers

 

We know of Church Fathers quoting it especially the Book of Watchers part only:

 

“… The Greek text was known to, and quoted, both positively and negatively, by many Church Fathers: references can be found in Justin Martyr, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Origen, Cyprian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius and Cassian.[61]: …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

 

Example Quotes in support of Canonicity, to quote:

 

“… Epistle of Jude

Jude 14-15 quotes 1 Enoch who as “the seventh from Adam, prophesied” (Enoch 1:9). “Seventh from Adam,” Enoch, identifies him as the author, Adam’s fifth great-grandson and thus Noah’s great-grandfather. “Prophesied” means that Jude is not simply quoting an historical fact, but that Enoch gave a prophecy, which by definition is an utterance from God. The following verses in Jude develop further material from the named book.[16][17][18][19][20]

 

Epistle of Barnabas

The Epistle of Barnabas (ca 70 AD – 132 AD) quotes Enoch as “Scripture”, sometimes with the formula “it is written.”[21]

 

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr (110 AD – 165 AD), in his Second Apology, uses information unique to the Book of Enoch to establish doctrine on fallen angels and the origin of demons from angels’ adultery with women.[22]

 

Athenagoras

Athenagoras (133 AD – 190 AD) in his Plea for the Christians uses Enoch to establish doctrine about Genesis 6:1-4, calling Enoch a prophet: “you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets.”[23]

 

Irenaeus

Irenaeus (d. 202 AD), in Against Heresies, discusses the doctrine that Enoch was God’s legate to fallen angels, which is unique to Enoch,[24] and that a group of fallen angels devised methods of sorcery to adulterate with women.[25]

 

Clement of Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria (ca 150 AD – ca 215 AD) writes that both Daniel and Enoch taught the same thing regarding the blessing of the faithful (Eclogue 2.1) and that the fallen angels were the source of the black arts (53.4).[26]

 

Tertullian

Tertullian (155 AD – 222 AD), the first author writing in Latin, names and cites Enoch as “divinely inspired” in On the Apparel of Women (Book I) and names Enoch as its genuine, human author. He states that its quotation in Jude 14 is an attestation in the New Testament to its authenticity, though he notes that it is “not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either”. He writes—

But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that “every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired” (2 Tim 3:16). By [non-believers] it may now seem to have been rejected for that very reason, just like all the other passages which plainly tell of Christ.[27]

 

In Book II, Tertullian uses Enoch to establish doctrine against the excessive ornamentation of women, attributing its origin to demons who cohabitated with them before the Great Flood.[28]

 

Within his Apologetic, in “On Idolatry”, he uses Enoch to establish the doctrine that idolatry and astrology originated from demons[29] and that demons are the supernatural issue of fallen angels adulterating with women.[30]

 

Commodianus

Commodianus (ca 240) never mentions Enoch but, in his Instructions, uses information unique to the Book of Enoch to establish doctrine on the origin of demons from angels adulterating with women and on the wicked arts they taught. Thus, he shows that heathen gods were actually the same demons.[31]

 

Origen

Origen (185 AD – 254 AD), in De Principiis, quotes Enoch and notes that the church did not accept the several other books called “Enoch” as at all “divine” (Against Celsus). However, Enoch is missing in the quotation of a canonical list from Eusebius’s Church History attributed to Origen.[32]

 

Anatolius

Anatolius (early 3rd c AD – July 3, 283 AD) cites Enoch to interpret the ancient Jewish calendar (in a reference to Enoch, Book of Starlight).[33]

 

Cassiodorus

Cassiodorus (ca 485 AD – ca 585 AD), quotes Jude 14 (“In these words he (Jude) verifies the prophecy”) to verify Enoch’s prophecy as contained in 1 Enoch. In the same Latin translation of comments on the First Epistle of Peter attributed to Clement of Alexandria (ca.150 – 211/216), Cassiodorus also uses Enoch to establish doctrine that fallen angels are apostates from God.[34]

 

Syncellus

George Syncellus (d. p̄ 810 AD), who once held a position of authority under the patriarch Tarasios of Constantinople, quotes numerous excerpts of the book of Enoch in his Chronography.[35]

 

Canonical lists

In a surviving copy of canonical lists by Nicephorus of Constantinople, Stichometry (9th c?), Enoch is relegated to an Apocryphon of the New Testament. …”

 

Source:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_of_the_book_of_Enoch_before_modern_times

 

Note: These Church Fathers didn’t go to Hell for even calling this Book as ‘Scripture’ but we consider it as a ‘possibility’ only and hence is ‘safe’. Also, some of the Church Fathers quoted here are also on the list of the ‘First Protestant Father’s’ of ‘Lutheran Fathers’ who quote them on parts which they agree in the ‘Book of Concord’ which may be seen in link below (example):

 

https://bookofconcord.org/sources-and-context/catalog-of-testimonies/

 

4) Lake of Fire description from the Book of 1Enoch’s “Book of Parables” Section (in image too*)

 

“…  7 beneath that land. And through its valleys proceed STREAMS of FIRE, where these angels are punished who had led astray those who dwell upon the earth. 8 But those WATERS shall in THOSE DAYS serve for the KINGS and the MIGHTY and the EXALTED, and THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH, for the HEALING of THE BODY, but for the PUNISHMENT of the SPIRIT; now their spirit is full of lust, that they may be punished in their body, for they have denied the Lord of Spirits 9 and SEE THEIR PUNISHMENT DAILY, and YET BELIEVE NOT IN HIS NAME. And in PROPORTION as the BURNING of THEIR BODIES becomes SEVERE, a corresponding CHANGE shall take place in THEIR SPIRIT FOR EVER and EVER; 10 for before the Lord of Spirits NONE SHALL UTTER AN IDLE WORD. For the judgement shall come upon them, 11 because they believe in the lust of their body and deny the Spirit of the Lord. And THOSE SAME WATERS will UNDERGO a CHANGE IN THOSE DAYS; for when those angels are punished in these waters, these water-springs shall change their temperature, and when the angels ascend, this water of the 12 springs shall change and become cold. And I heard MICHAEL answering and saying: ‘ THIS JUDGEMENT wherewith the ANGELS ARE JUDGED IS A TESTIMONY FOR THE KINGS and the MIGHTY who POSSESSS the 13 EARTH.’ Because THESE WATERS of JUDGEMENT minister to the HEALING of THE BODY of the KINGS and the LUST of THEIR BODY; therefore THEY WILL NOT SEE and WILL NOT BELIEVE  that THOSE WATERS WILL CHANGE and BECOME A FIRE which BURNS FOR EVER. …” – Book of 1Enoch (Section II: Book of Parables, Chapter 67 Verses 7 to 13)

 

Source (via Protestant Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

 

https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_2.HTM

 

*Image from this source:

 

http://qbible.com/enoch/66.html

 

5) “Possible” Explanations based on Book of 1Enoch (Section II: Book of Parables, Chapter 67 Verses 7 to 13 Quoted in 4) earlier with some Bible Verses too

 

  1. i) The Book of 1Enoch in this chapter must be describing the “Lake of Fire” as the term “Lake of Fire” implies that it has both “Water” (as in Lake) and “Fire” too and it’s for the condemned ones “on the earth”

 

“…  7 beneath that land. And through its valleys proceed STREAMS of FIRE, where these angels are punished who had led astray those who dwell upon the earth. 8 But those WATERS shall in THOSE DAYS serve for the KINGS and the MIGHTY and the EXALTED, and THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH, for the HEALING of THE BODY, but for the PUNISHMENT of the SPIRIT;  …”

 

  1. ii) Man is made up of a “Body”, “Soul” and “Spirit”

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself SANCTIFY you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

iii) Believing after Seeing Possibility

 

“… now their spirit is full of lust, that they may be punished in their body, for they have denied the Lord of Spirits 9 and SEE THEIR PUNISHMENT DAILY, and YET BELIEVE NOT IN HIS NAME. …”

 

Comment: They are being punished ‘daily’ in this ‘Lake of Fire’ but yet “do not believe in His Name” as described above. This seems to imply the ‘unwritten’ part which is the ‘opposite’ namely, ‘if they believe in His Name’, then there seems to be a possibility that this ‘Lake of Fire’ punishment could be ‘stopped’ by His Mercy, right? For if it cannot be stopped at all, then the Condition “…   and SEE THEIR PUNISHMENT DAILY,  and YET BELIEVE NOT IN HIS NAME. …” doesn’t seem to make sense unless BELIEVING in HIS NAME there can stop it, right? I’m not saying it is so but it’s “possible”, yet let God Decide.

 

More regarding this ‘Believing after Seeing Possibility’ was discussed in post in link below (please read it continued in comments too, as there was insufficient place):

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161342465207784:0

 

  1. iv) Christ Said that Gehenna/Lake of Fire/Hell “Destroys Body and Soul” (in Matthew 10:28) but never mention the “Spirit” part where humans have all three (as per 1 Thessalonians 5:23 too) but Book of 1Enoch in this quote views it as follows

 

“… And in PROPORTION as the BURNING of THEIR BODIES becomes SEVERE, a corresponding CHANGE shall take place in THEIR SPIRIT FOR EVER and EVER; 10 for before the Lord of Spirits NONE SHALL UTTER AN IDLE WORD….”

 

Comment: The change in “their spirit” for whom this Lake of Fire damages “their bodies” in “proportion” (of their sins, implied) is Written above as something ‘Good/Holy’ because this change causes them to ‘never be evil again’ as this ‘change in their spirit’ is described here as “… 10 for before the Lord of Spirits NONE SHALL UTTER AN IDLE WORD….” and this ‘change’ is permanent as it’s for the time period of “… a corresponding CHANGE shall take place in THEIR SPIRIT FOR EVER and EVER;  …”.

 

Could this Mysterious Change (for whom it’s applied) then mean that these are “Saved in their spirit” and the meaning of ‘the smoke of their torment in the Lake of Fire’ is “for ever and ever” (i.e. literally ‘ages of Ages’ in Koine Greek, e.g. Revelation 14:10 – 11) can refer to this ‘positive/holy/good’ change in their “spirit”? In other words, this quote makes it possible that the punishment “for ever and ever” for the Lake of Fire causes a ‘permanent for ever and ever change in THEIR SPIRIT to become GOOD’ again as this quote rings.

 

This phrase “saved in the spirit” on the “Day” of “Lord Jesus” is found in Verse below with the ‘Destruction of the Flesh’ (as per the resurrected body above which was condemned to the Lake of Fire Judgment but spirit was being saved with this change to not utter any idle word against God anymore), to quote:

 

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

 

Context comment: The Verse in 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to a ‘fallen Christian’ who was doing weird ‘sexual immorality’ (and so cannot inherit the Kingdom of God unless he repents on earth, 1 Corinthians 6: 9 – 10) and the fact that some scholars point to him repenting later in 2 Corinthians 2:6 – 8 proves one key point which ‘all Bible readers should agree’ namely,

 

‘… when 1 Corinthians 5:5 was written, it points to a man who was heading straight to hell for that sexual sin and will be considered ‘wicked’ and not inherit the kingdom of God, right? (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10). The delivered to “Satan” can mean this one is no more a flock of Christ and suffers the penalty of sin immediately too. If this person was a ‘believer’ just being punished by Satan so he can be saved (as some scholars propose), then his spirit would be saved at death itself (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:8) for normal believers but here it specifically Says that ‘the spirit is saved only on the [Future] Day of Lord Jesus’ which is ‘Judgment Day’ (1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, 2 Timothy 1:18) . Also how can apostle St. Paul point to a mystery that ‘his spirit may be saved’ in the ‘future timeline of Day of Lord Jesus’ if he was  headed for an eternal Hell with no hope? Arguing that he repented later doesn’t solve the mystery because when this Verse was written that didn’t happen yet and so the context of an unrepentant sinner to have ‘his spirit saved but in the Day of Lord Jesus’ only seems possible as this quote from Book of 1Enoch on this part seem to point too. Mysterious indeed …’

 

  1. v) Blessed Archangel Michael himself seem to Repeat this part later to Blessed Enoch that under the condition of “Believing after seeing” this Judgment of the Lake of Fire could be ‘stopped’ by God’s Mercy

 

“… MICHAEL answering and saying: ‘ THIS JUDGEMENT wherewith the ANGELS ARE JUDGED IS A TESTIMONY FOR THE KINGS and the MIGHTY who POSSESSS the 13 EARTH.’ Because THESE WATERS of JUDGEMENT minister to the HEALING of THE BODY of the KINGS and the LUST of THEIR BODY; therefore THEY WILL NOT SEE and WILL NOT BELIEVE  that THOSE WATERS WILL CHANGE and BECOME A FIRE which BURNS FOR EVER. …”

 

Comment: The phrase “… Because THESE WATERS of JUDGEMENT minister to the HEALING of THE BODY of the KINGS and the LUST of THEIR BODY; …” seem to point that the Lake of Fire can “Heal” the “body” from “lust” (sins) too. Notice that as “Fire” this Lake of Fire caused the ‘punishment part described earlier’ while as “water” this same “Lake of Fire” can cause “Healing from sins (lusts)” for these ‘judged ones from the earth’. Is that the Mysterious Reason why “Lake of Fire” has both the “Fire” (for Judgment of sins, ‘destroy the Body’) and “Lake” (Water for healing thereafter) on the CONDITION that “they believe after seeing”?

 

Please note that this CONDITION that “they believe after seeing” seems to be implied in that ending phrase namely “… therefore THEY WILL NOT SEE and WILL NOT BELIEVE  that THOSE WATERS WILL CHANGE and BECOME A FIRE which BURNS FOR EVER. …”. In other words, Archangel Michael may be saying that ‘if they did not see and believe’ only then these “WATERS will CHANGE BACK and BECOME a FIRE” in which case “it BURNS FOR EVER“. So this seems more like a “conditional” statement describing this possibility and we saw also in the earlier quote that for some ‘the change in their spirits for ever and ever’ is also possible.

 

Please note that even if ‘saved’ thereafter by ‘believing after seeing from this Lake of Fire’ such ones cannot enter the Kingdom of God not the City even as such blessedness is only for those whose names are in the Most Blessed Lamb’s Book of Life (as Revelation 21:24 – 27 clearly Records) and may live in some ‘Outside the City’ regions (Revelation 22:15) after “their part” in the “Lake of Fire” first (Revelation 21:8).

 

Conclusion

 

This same ‘Book of Parables’ gives a “Believing after Seeing possibility” toward “some sinners” with a ‘Salvation with no honour’ type (and so can’t be a ‘Christian Salvation’ at all as please also notice the word ‘holy & elect’ in Verse 1 below in comparison which refers to Christians), to quote:

 

“… 1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect, And the light of days shall abide upon them, And glory and honour shall turn to the holy, 2 ON THE DAY OF AFFLICTION on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners. And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits: And HE WILL CAUSE THE OTHERS TO WITNESS (this) THAT THEY MAY REPENT And FORGO THE WORKS OF THEIR HANDS. 3 They shall have NO HONOUR through the name of the Lord of Spirits, YET THROUGH HIS NAME SHALL THEY BE SAVED [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21], And THE LORD OF SPIRITS WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON THEM, For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement, And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself: At HIS JUDGEMENT THE UNREPENTANT SHALL PERISH before Him. 5 And FROM HENCEFORTH I will have NO MERCY on them, saith the Lord of Spirits. …” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 50)

 

 

Source (via Protestant Historian Mr. Philip Schaff again):

 

https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_2.HTM

 

Here’s an Example First Christianity Quote by “Ambrosiaster” which may interpret the “ALL MEN to be SAVED” as per 1 Timothy 2:4 or 1 Timothy 4:10 or John 12:32 with St. Ignatius’ quote earlier too in light of all these quotes:

“… and yet to recognize that His kingdom is ETERNAL, that is to say, the kingdom of the Son, for in the Name of Jesus EVERY KNEE shakes in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, and IN HELL. (Philip. 2) The Apostle St. Peter confirms this truth when he says:” No other name under heaven was given to MEN by which we were to BE SAVED.” (Acts 4) And did not the Lord Himself say to His disciples, “Until now you have not asked anything in my name, ask and I will answer you?” (Jn. 16:24) The REIGN of the Son therefore consists in the fact that it is in HIS NAME that ALL MEN are SAVED, and that ALL the PRAYERS addressed to Him until the end of the world are ANSWERED. But when ALL CREATURES have confessed Jesus Christ WILLINGLY or by FORCE, and have been subjected to the power against which they have resisted, then the MYSTERY of ONE GOD will be REVEALED to ALL MEN, and all thanksgivings will go back to God the Father, the principle of all things, that ALL PREACHING CEASE, ONE GOD be recognized in the MYSTERY of the TRINITY. … ” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”, Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus, c.366 AD – c. 384 AD, Reply to Question 26, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke)

 

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrosiaster-questions-and-answers-on-the-gospel-of-luke

 

 

The Mystery of whether all may be saved like this or some via ‘Believing after seeing’ too for these worst offenders against God seems possible via these quotes and whether true or not, let God Decide it One Day and we accept His Decision either way. I’m just writing to show this “possibility” and “not Doctrine” (as no one knows how authentic or not authentic these quotes are) but it certainly gives an insight into how the ‘First Jewish Christians’ who wrote these or preserved these understood the Lake of Fire.

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

Church Fathers Mystery- Example St. Polycarp

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161345925087784

 

Question

 

Who is Church Father?

 

Reply

 

1) In Verses below, it’s warned to follow “what is Written” only and Apostle St. Paul mentions “not many fathers” indicating such ones and history proves these important ones in retrospect

 

“… Therefore JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COMES, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. 6Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us NOT TO THINK BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7For who [d]MAKES YOU DIFFER FROM ANOTHER? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? … 14I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet YOU DO NOT HAVE MANY FATHERS; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16Therefore I URGE YOU, IMITATE ME. 17For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.  …” (1 Corinthians 4:5 – 7, 14 – 17, NKJV)

 

2) The first Lutherans in general had more respect for the “Church Fathers” (even if the Church Fathers could be doctrinally wrong from their view point) and must certainly view them as “saved” despite “differences in doctrine”, to quote regarding the ‘Lutheran Book of Concord’:

 

“… The Lutheran Church did not start in the 1500s, but is the continuation of the one catholic (universal) Church, including everyone who taught and believed the one catholic faith. In The Book of Concord, the Early Church fathers are referenced and quoted in every confessional document (except the Small Catechism). Here are all the ones mentioned: Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian from the second century. Origen, Cyprian, Anthony of Egypt, Athanasius, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Hilary of Poitiers, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, and Leo I covered the third, fourth, and fifth centuries .Gregory I, Bede, and John of Damascus from the sixth, seventh, and eighth centuries. These men taught and wrote throughout the Roman Empire: from Judea to England; from northern Africa to Italy and Asia Minor. They are the leading teachers of the whole Church throughout the first eight centuries of Christian history, and the Lutherans claim them as their fathers in the faith. … Quoting the Early Church fathers does not imply that Christian teaching is founded on the authority of men (Catalog of Testimonies, Conclusion). Lutherans hold the Scriptures to be “the only true standard or norm by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged” (Formula, Solid Declaration, Summary, 3). But those teachers and doctrines that are judged true should also be appreciated and used. The Christian faith did not originate with us. The Christian faith is handed on from one generation of saints to the next, as each generation holds to Scripture. There is so much we can learn from the faithful teachers of the ancient Church, for we are all part of the same catholic Church. They should not be strangers to us. If we are truly Lutheran, then they are truly our fathers. …”

 

Source:

https://lutheranreformation.org/history/lutherans-early-church-fathers/

 

Note: If you see carefully, many of the “Church Fathers” here are the ‘same ones’ I quote frequently in many of my writings. The argument of ‘who could be right is open’ but condemning each other due to these doctrinal differences may be a “Prideful” attitude rather than an edifying one (because one could be wrong on other doctrinal points too). For me, if a ‘possibility of doctrine’ is taught which is “not” found in any of these “listed Church Fathers” here, then it’s most likely a “Christian cult”. This might be the safest way Scripturally.

 

3) Yes, some of the Church Fathers quoted here are also on the list of the ‘First Protestant Father’s’ of ‘Lutheran Fathers’ who quote them on parts which they agree in the ‘Book of Concord’ which may be seen in link below (example):

 

https://bookofconcord.org/sources-and-context/catalog-of-testimonies/

 

4) When comparing human beings or genuine Christians too, I truly will choose the Church Fathers over any of your pastors or your Church leaders or anyone else anytime.

 

5) God Used Church Fathers to Decide which Books are to be in the Bibles today even though some books are open to argument. This proves that they’re Chosen of God as another cannot simply make up new scripture like some modern cults do such as the book of Mormon and all that. Also please remember that none of the founders of your denominations are used by God to determine which books are to be in the Bible even or played a role in its preservation of copying speaking of the ‘Original Manuscripts’ as some of these Church Fathers whom I quote did.

 

6) An Example from Church History by St. Polycarp himself regarding ‘new teachings’ not found in Scripture nor from endorsed Church Fathers, rephrased:

 

Question

 

‘… Do you know me? …’ – Marcion (Arch-Heretic)

 

Reply

 

“… “I do know thee, the first-born of Satan.” …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD)

 

Source (Polycarp, according to St. Irenaus of Lyons in his work, Adversus Haereses):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism

 

7) Before Condemning any Church Fathers easily, please consider the following ‘Charity Doctrine Example’ from this St. Polycarp himself quoting that ‘… Alms delivers from Death …’:

 

“… STAND FAST, therefore, in these things, and FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD, being firm and UNCHANGEABLE IN THE FAITH, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]” Be all of you subject one to another? having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,” that YE MAY BOTH RECEIVE PRAISE FOR YOUR GOOD WORKS, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But WOE TO HIM by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, CHAPTER X.–EXHORTATION TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

 

St. Polycarp is quoting the Tobit section below:

 

“…  6 Then he said to them SECRETLY: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. 7 For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. 8 PRAYER IS GOOD WITH FASTING AND ALMS MORE THAN to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For ALMS DELIVERETH from DEATH, and the same is that which PURGETH AWAY SINS, and maketh to FIND MERCY AND LIFE EVERLASTING. … 15 For I am the angel RAPHAEL, one of the seven who stand before the Lord. …” (Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 12:6 – 9, 15)

 

Yes, he is this ‘same St. Polycarp’ that is famous for these words before he was ‘burned alive for Christ’, to quote:

 

“… “86 years have I have served him, and he has done me no wrong. How can I blaspheme my King and my Savior? … “I have wild animals here,” the Proconsul said. “I will throw you to them if you do not repent.” “Call them,” Polycarp replied. “It is unthinkable for me to repent from what is good to turn to what is evil. I will be glad though to be changed from evil to righteousness.” “If you despise the animals, I will have you burned.” “You threaten me with fire which burns for an hour, and is then extinguished, but you know nothing of the fire of the coming judgment and eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. Why are you waiting? Bring on whatever you want.” …”

 

Source:

 

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/study/module/polycarp

 

Comment: for those Christians who easily condemn St. Polycarp, do you think he is going to hear “… I never knew you …” or these Christians if they push their arrogance too far? Let God Decide but most like St. Polycarp won’t be the rejected one I think.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

Saved in the Spirit – A Possible Meaning with Book of 1Enoch, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 and 1 Peter 4:6

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161347211397784

 

Question

 

The word destroy in Matthew 10:28 in the Greek is solid. Is Strongs G 622. Mark 1:24 is another usage of it as the demons know their fate of being fully destroyed.

 

Reply

 

Indeed, the 1Enoch Quote in Chapter 66 also clearly seems to show that the Demons are Fully punished only into possibly non-existence in the Lake of Fire as ‘for ever and ever effect’ or ‘unendingly’ where the “ones of the earth” (men) are called to witness it and whilst being punished in it some of them seem to be allowed to ‘believe after seeing’ to cause ‘a change in their spirits for ever and ever toward not uttering any idle/sin word anymore’ and even to be ‘healed of the bodily sins/lust’ on the condition’ if they ‘believe after seeing whilst being punished in the Lake of Fire’ as this Hope is only Uttered toward ‘men’. In 1Enoch Quote on this same “Judgment”, Chapter 50 a similar ‘Salvation with no honour is offered to those who believe after seeing’ there.   This aspect was discussed as a ‘possibility’ in an earlier post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161344813172784

 

Note: There’s a classical fallacy on chapter numbering on the translations of Book of 1Enoch because Laurence’s Chapter 66 is Charles’ Chapter 67 for some reason I don’t know.

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself SANCTIFY you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

So Matthew 10:28 of man being destroyed in both “body and soul” for these ones but their “spirit” (as Body, Soul, Spirit, are distinct in 1 Thessalonians 5:23) may point that these 1Enoch Chapter 66 “saved in the spirit” (possible 1 Corinthians 5:5 too as discussed earlier) may refer to them just saved as ‘spirits’  with “no body nor soul” so they cannot enter heaven nor enjoy the earth? or equivalent? I don’t know but it’s possible.

 

It’s also possible that the “formerly disobedient spirits” in the time of Noah to whom Christ Preached in the Spirit World where “formerly disobedient” means they may have repented there now ‘being obedient now ‘ (implied) by His Preaching & post-prison Judgment in the Spirit World first as Described in 1 Peter 3:17 – 18 (or even 1 Peter 4:6) could refer to such a “Saved in the spirit” context likewise.

 

“… 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the SPIRITS in PRISON, 20who FORMERLY were DISOBEDIENT, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.  …” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

Note: The righteous spirits were “not in prison” (but in comfort regions as Abraham’s Bosom as Christ Taught in Luke 16:19 – 31) and the context here refers to “Disobedient” ones which cannot refer to the ‘Old Testament righteous’.

 

Yes, 1 Peter 4:6’s context below seem to point that “the dead” refers to the “literal dead” (post-mortem, Context in 1 Peter 4:5 first) where the ‘evil ones’ speaking bad of Christians (1 Peter 4:4) are then compared to be judged as per “the dead” (spirit world, 1 Peter 4:5) where the result it is “their flesh” (body + soul get “destroyed, Matthew 10:28) but eventually may “live in the spirit-state” to God upon this change toward good as described by 1Enoch Chapter 66 earlier, Verse:

 

“…   4In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking EVIL of you. 5THEY will give an account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

Note: In Greek, Verse 6 and Verse 5’s “the dead” reads the same but translators add ‘who are dead’. Example:

 

Berean Literal Bible

For to this END the GOSPEL was PROCLAIMED even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God.

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

Note: 1 Peter 4:6’s Context of “Judgment” is most likely referring to “Judgment day” (because the phrase “Judge the living and the dead” in 1 Peter 4:5 is similar to “Judgment Day” only as per 2 Timothy 4:1 & Acts 17:31) which only Happens after His Second Coming/Appearing, Verses:

 

“… because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” …” (Acts 17:31, NKJV)

 

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

 

and the Judgment Day Verses below may point to “which THE DEAD” the Gospel may be Preached to (1 Peter 4:6) in light of 1 Peter 4:5’s Context referring first to ‘this Timeline’ as follows (please notice the phrase “THE DEAD” carefully below to whom the “lived in the spirit” referring to the ‘spirit-state’ in 1 Peter 4:6 with no body & no soul being destroyed in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28 may apply):

 

“… And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

 

Please also notice that only “THE DEAD WERE JUDGED” and ‘not the small & great’ where some scholars view the dead being classified as these two classes while we may also see it as Christians (as the Great), non-Christian surprised sheep possibility (could be ‘the small’) or anything equivalent for we don’t know for sure.

 

The Word “Prison” to indicate afterlife Judgment and toward the ‘unrighteous only’ (not the righteous) may be Seen in Christ’s Words below:

 

“… “And why do you not even judge by yourselves what is right? For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you BEFORE the JUDGE, and the JUDGE turn you over to the officer, and the officer THROW YOU INTO PRISON. “I say to you, YOU WILL NOT GET OUT OF THERE UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE VERY LAST CENT. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:57 – 59, NASB)

 

Compare:

 

The Verses above clearly describe the ‘Final Judgment’ as the Word “Judge” is used and the “Prison”  is the same metaphor for Gehenna/Lake of Fire because it’s referred likewise in Verses below (as the Final Judgment cannot happen without the Resurrection first):

 

“… 21And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, AS PRISONERS ARE GATHERED IN THE PIT, and shall be SHUT UP IN THE PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be VISITED. …” (Isaiah 24:21 – 22, KJV)

 

Please compare with the word “Prison till the last penny” in Luke 12:57 – 59, Matthew 5:22 – 26 and Matthew 18:32 – 35 prior with Isaiah 24:21 – 22 above in the Context of “Judgment Day” Timeline and “Lake of Fire” Judgment Context as these Verses seem to point when collectively understood.

 

Please notice also that this “shut up in Prison” (Isaiah 24:22) happens in the future (highlighted phrase: “… IN THAT DAY…” in Isaiah 24:21 above, Judgment Day is when the fallen angels are also judged as per Matthew 25:31 – 46) and “Visited” here in the Original Language means to “Inspect” which possibly can refer to ‘checking to see if repentance or change has occurred or if the till the last penny sentence is over’.

 

Regarding 1 Corinthians 5:5, I repeat:

 

This phrase “saved in the spirit” on the “Day” of “Lord Jesus” is found in Verse below with the ‘Destruction of the Flesh’ (as per the resurrected body above which was condemned to the Lake of Fire Judgment but spirit was being saved with this change to not utter any idle word against God anymore), to quote:

 

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

 

Context comment: The Verse in 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to a ‘fallen Christian’ who was doing weird ‘sexual immorality’ (and so cannot inherit the Kingdom of God unless he repents on earth, 1 Corinthians 6: 9 – 10) and the fact that some scholars point to him repenting later in 2 Corinthians 2:6 – 8 proves one key point which ‘all Bible readers should agree’ namely,

 

‘… when 1 Corinthians 5:5 was written, it points to a man who was heading straight to hell for that sexual sin and will be considered ‘wicked’ and not inherit the kingdom of God, right? (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10). The delivered to “Satan” can mean this one is no more a flock of Christ and suffers the penalty of sin immediately too. If this person was a ‘believer’ just being punished by Satan so he can be saved (as some scholars propose), then his spirit would be saved at death itself (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:8) for normal believers but here it specifically Says that ‘the spirit is saved only on the [Future] Day of Lord Jesus’ which is ‘Judgment Day’ (1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, 2 Timothy 1:18) . Also how can apostle St. Paul point to a mystery that ‘his spirit may be saved’ in the ‘future timeline of Day of Lord Jesus’ if he was  headed for an eternal Hell with no hope? Arguing that he repented later doesn’t solve the mystery because when this Verse was written that didn’t happen yet and so the context of an unrepentant sinner to have ‘his spirit saved but in the Day of Lord Jesus’ only seems possible as this quote from Book of 1Enoch on this part seem to point too. Mysterious indeed …’

 

I am ‘not’ saying that this is the meaning but just as a “possibility” as these are so difficult to ascertain for sure and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept His Decision.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Alms Delivers from Death – is it Biblical?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161347322957784

 

1) Bible Verse

 

Let’s first ask the equivalent question, does “righteousness deliver from death”? Verse:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/kjv/proverbs/11.htm

 

2) Reason for Doctrine: Why is this important?

 

Because the “Death” from which “Righteousness” is to “Deliver” is “Written” above in the Context of “Day of Wrath” (so “Judgment Day”) and also the next Verse is inserted here (Verse 5 above) to show that it speaks of the ‘human righteousness’ which God Seeks for this as “Christ Himself” Spoke of “your righteousness” distinctly in Matthew 5:19 – 20 for the Condition to “Enter the Kingdom of Heaven and be Least/Greatest accordingly too” which we shall discuss later at the end.

 

Next, please allow me to share some Jewish and Early Christian insights next on how this might be so with Bible Verses too.

 

3) The Jewish word translated as “Righteousness” is frequently or most interchangeably refers to “Alms” which is the ‘Holiest Act a man can do to obey God’ as even this Protestant Bible  Encyclopedia admits, to quote:

 

“… The LATER JEWS often used “RIGHTEOUSNESS” tsedhaqah as MEANING ALMS, that being in THEIR VIEW THE FOREMOST RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Compare our modern use of “charity” to denote almsgiving.) This use is seen in the Talmud and in the frequent translations of the Hebrew word for “righteousness” (tsedhaqah) by “alms” (eleemosune) in the Septuagint, though nothing warranting this is found in the Hebrew Old Testament, or in the true text of the New Testament. This notion of righteousness as alms being well-nigh universal among Jews in Jesus’ day, and spreading even among Christians, accounts for “alms” in Matthew 6:1, where the true text has “righteousness”: “Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them” (the Revised Version (British and American) with Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Bezae, the Latin versions, etc.). The oriental versions which generally read “alms” may be accounted for on the supposition that “alms” was first written on the margin as explaining the supposed meaning of “righteousness,” and then, as according with this accepted oriental idea, was substituted for it in the text by the copyists. …” – International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/topical/a/alms.htm

 

4) Jewish Insights – that’s why in the Book of Tobit or even Sirach or other places we find the equivalent phrase “alms delivers from death”

 

“… A word derived from the Greek ἐλεημοσύνη (mercifulness), used by Greek-speaking Jews to denote almost exclusively the offering of charity to the needy, from a feeling of both compassion and righteousness (ẓedaḳah). (See LXX. on Prov. xxi. 21, and Dan. iv. 24.) The word “almsgiving,” however, is far from expressing the full meaning of the Hebrew ẓedaḳah, which is, charity in the spirit of uprightness or justice. According to the Mosaic conception, wealth is a loan from God, and the poor have a certain claim on the possessions of the rich; while the rich are positively enjoined to share God’s bounties with the poor. A systematic mode of relief of the needy was, therefore, provided by the law and by the institutions of the synagogue (see Charity). But all these provisions could not entirely remove want. “The poor shall never cease out of the land,” says the lawgiver, and commands: “Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land” (Deut. xv. 11). In the course of time the giving of Alms out of mere pity and without regard to the permanent relief of the recipient, became a meritorious practise, possessing, like sacrifice, the power of atoning for man’s sins, and redeeming him from calamity and death. The verse Prov. xi. 4 (compare xvi. 6, xxi. 3) was expounded in this sense: “Water will quench blazing fire; so doth almsgiving make atonement for sins.” “Lay up alms in thy store-house; it shall deliver thee from all affliction” (Ecclus. iii. 30, xxix. 12). …” – Jewish Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1295-alms

 

5) Talmud

 

Christians sometimes are careless in their words and do “not” realize that Christ for example Approved this “Almsgiving Concept” in the “Talmud” which was spoken by  Rab Assi of the third century, “almsgiving is equal in value to all other commandments” (B. B. 9a; compare Luke, xv.) Galatians 5:14 too, yes in Luke 10 in the ‘Parable of the Good Samaritan’ as the Answer to the Question “What shall I do to inherit Eternal Life?” which we will discuss at the end.

 

Now, let’s look at some Talmudic quotes which are related to this (as Christ Approved its Concept that this is Equivalent to “Fulfilling all Law” in Luke 10:25 – 37 referring to the Charity Doctrine Acts of Almsgiving as Demonstrated by the Theologically Imperfect Good Samaritan from his ‘own money’ but was ‘missed’ by the theologically better Levite/Priest):

 

“… Accordingly, King Nebuchadnezzar is told by Daniel: “Break off thy sins by righteousness [ẓedaḳah—almsgiving] and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor” (Dan. iv. 27), and both Daniel and the king become models of charity (Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21). (See Altar.) The entire story of Tobit is a lesson on almsgiving and its redeeming powers (Tobit, i. 3, 16; ii. 14; iv. 7-11; xii. 8, 9). “Alms deliver from death and purge away all sin” (compare Prov. xi. 4); whence the custom of giving Alms at funerals (see Ẓedaḳah Box). “Every one who occupies himself with charity shall behold the face of God,” as it is written (Ps. xvii. 15, Heb.): “I behold Thy face by almsgiving” (ẓedeḳ; see Midr. Teh. l.c., B. B. 10a). Almsgiving, prayer, and fasting constituted the three cardinal disciplines which the synagogue transmitted to both the Christian church and the Mohammedan mosque (see Tobit, xii. 8; and compare Matt. vi. 1-18; and the Koran, where almsgiving, called zakat (Aramaic zakuta), or sadaḳa (ẓedaḳah), is always mentioned in connection with prayer (sura ii. 40, 104; ix. 54). The Mandæans, too, made almsgiving (zidka) and fasting the means of obtaining eternal life and bliss (see Brand, “Mandäische Schriften,” pp. 28 et seq.). According to Rab Assi of the third century, “almsgiving is equal in value to all other commandments” (B. B. 9a; compare Luke, xv.): “It saves man from sudden, unnatural death and the soul from doom” (R. Johanan, B. B. 10a, after Prov. x. 2): “Almsgiving is more than any sacrifice, though personal charity is superior even to almsgiving” (R. Eleazar, Suk. 49b). R. Eleazar states also that it should precede prayer, taking Ps. xvii. 15 also to mean, “After almsgiving I shall behold Thy face,” B.B. 10a. Likewise each fast-day was virtually an occasion for almsgiving, as the day’s offerings were handed over to the poor (Ber. 6b). Compare Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21: “The Israelites fast and give their food and that of their children to the poor”—quoted by Origen, “Homilies to Leviticus,” x. (see also Aristides, xv. 9). …” Jewish Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1295-alms

 

6) Bible Verses Comparing Clearly that Almsgiving is Greater than Prayer/Fasting too

 

  1. i) Blessed Prophet Amos

 

Prophet Amos clearly Declared that Doing “Justice” and “Helping the Poor” must be done first before doing any ‘Church Gathering or Singing Songs to Worship God which God DOES NOT Hear unless these are fulfilled’, Verses:

 

“… 21“I HATE, I despise your feast days, And I do NOT SAVOR your SACRED ASSEMBLIES.

22Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will NOT ACCEPT them, NOR will I regard your fattened peace offerings. 23TAKE AWAY from Me the NOISE of YOUR SONGS, For I will NOT HEAR the MELODY of your STRINGED INSTRUMENTS. 24But let JUSTICE run down like water, And RIGHTEOUSNESS like a mighty stream. …” (Amos 5:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

Next, What “justice” and “righteousness” is God Referring to in Verses above, political parties & their rich men or hidden racist agendas? Nope.

 

Only JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUSNESS to the POOR is Written in these Consecutive Verses prior (“Context”) – yes, on Judgment Day itself Christ is only interested with how we treat the poor (Matthew 25:31-46’s When I was hungry, thirsty, naked…):

 

“… 10They HATE the one who REBUKES in the gate,

And they ABHOR the one who SPEAKS UPRIGHTLY.

11Therefore, BECAUSE YOU TREAD DOWN THE POOR

And take grain taxes from him,

Though you have built houses of hewn stone,

Yet you shall not dwell in them;

You have planted pleasant vineyards,

But you shall not drink wine from them.

12For I know YOUR MANIFOLD TRANSGRESSIONS

And YOUR MIGHTY SINS:

AFFLICTING THE JUST and TAKING BRIBES;

DIVERTING THE POOR FROM JUSTICE at the gate. …” (Amos 5:10 – 12, NKJV)

 

  1. ii) Blessed Prophet Isaiah

 

Prophet Isaiah makes it more clear that God only Answers Prayer/Fasting according to how much the ‘Charity Doctrine is Lived’ in ‘sharing the Bread with the Hungry, etc.’, Verses:

 

The Question

 

“… ‘Why have WE FASTED,’ they say, ‘and YOU HAVE NOT SEEN? Why have WE AFFLICTED OUR SOULS, and YOU TAKE NO NOTICE?’ …” (Isaiah 58:3, NKJV)

 

Part of the Answer (God’s Reply):

 

“… 7Is it not to SHARE YOUR BREAD with the HUNGRY,

And that you bring to your house THE POOR who are cast out;

When you see THE NAKED, that you cover him,

And not hide yourself from YOUR OWN FLESH?

8Then YOUR LIGHT shall break forth like the MORNING,

YOUR HEALING shall spring forth speedily,

And your righteousness shall go before you;

The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.

9Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;

You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’ …” (Isaiah 58:7 – 9, NKJV)

 

iii) The KING, Lord Jesus Christ

 

A lot of Christians think that they’re “doing Justice” when ‘they talk empty politics to save their race/family or to make more money actually’ (without realizing that they benefit from unwritten economic advantages from racism often without despising those). That’s “not the Justice and Righteousness” God was Speaking about. Similarly, the “tithing Churches” think that they’re ‘doing the work of God in Justice by collecting tithes money and feeding their clergy’. Again, this is NOT the JUSTICE and LOVE of GOD which God Requires simply because these are ‘acts which benefit yourselves for your own survival’. How do I know? Verses below (no opinions of mere men):

 

“… 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. 42“But woe to you Pharisees!  For YOU TITHE mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.   …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:41 – 42, NKJV)

 

Note: Christ clearly Equates “Alms” = “Charity” = “JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD” which these Pharisees ‘skipped’ but did practice ‘tithing’. If ‘tithing’ was part of “JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD”, then Christ would have congratulated the Pharisees because they were ‘perfect in obedience in tithing’ as Christ’s Phrase “… For YOU TITHE mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD means in full. Yes, please notice carefully that the Pharisees’ perfect ‘tithe paying’ did “… PASS BY JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD …” (meaning the tithing did NOT fulfil the ‘Justice and Love of God’ part) which in these Verses ONLY REFERS to the ALMSGIVING/CHARITY LIFESTYLE so clearly ‘as it is Written’ and best is, it is by CHRIST HIMSELF.

 

Note: There is an ‘illusion’ of Charity or Charity of little value (let God Judge) where if done, it brings us in return ‘financial returns of equivalent for doing so’ or ‘charity done with other people’s money’. This point is clear in Christ’s Phrase “… SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; …” in “… “… 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. …”. Yes the phrase “… SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; …” puts the ‘Relative Measure’ aspect (e.g. the ‘Poor Widow’, Luke 21:1 – 4) and points to clearly “Giving/Sharing to Charity/Alms” (i.e. toward anyone in need) from ”what we have” (not from what others give us or with other people’s money) where facilitation is good but not of high value. Example question: If by doing Charity with other people’s money we receive ‘blessing money’ or equivalent and we become ‘rich’ but never gave much from ‘our own money’, then this aspect is not fulfilled much either and is what the Pharisees were doing likewise which the LORD CORRECTED by Teaching them this too clearly here for ‘Inward Cleansing’.

 

Any contenders to speak against His Words here? So unless a Church Practices “ALMS” (Charity Doctrine) it has PASSED BY the JUSTICE and LOVE OF GOD part as LORD JESUS CHRIST finally clarified in detail what Prophet Amos and Prophet Isaiah was hinting earlier by “justice”. Indeed, “True Justice” is “Mercy & Compassion” which in ‘Action’ is the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ agreeing to all these, Verse:

 

“… Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute TRUE JUDGMENT, and SHEW MERCY and COMPASSIONS every man to his brother: 10And OPPRRESS NOT THE WIDOW, NOR THE FATHERLESS, THE STRANGER, NOR THE POOR; and let none of you IMAGINE EVIL AGAINST his brother in your heart. 11But they REFUSED TO HEARKEN, and pulled away the shoulder, and STOPPED THEIR EARS, that THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR. 12Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets. Thus GREAT WRATH CAME FROM THE LORD OF HOSTS. 13Therefore it happened, that just as HE PROCLAIMED AND THEY WOULD NOT HEAR, SO THEY CALLED OUT and I WOULD NOT LISTEN,” SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS. 14“But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations which they had not known. Thus THE LAND BECAME DESOLATE after them, so that no one passed through or returned; for they made the pleasant land desolate.” ….” (Zechariah 7:9 – 14, KJV)

 

So, Executing True Judgment is showing MERCY and COMPASSION in ACTION such as the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS of “… 10And OPPRRESS NOT THE WIDOW, NOR THE FATHERLESS, THE STRANGER, NOR THE POOR;  …” meaning we shoot do the opposite which is to help them instead:

 

“… 27PURE AND UNDEFILED RELIGION before GOD AND THE FATHER is this: to VISIT ORPHANS AND WIDOWS in THEIR TROUBLE, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. …” (James 1:27, NKJV)

 

Did you notice these?

 

“Holiness” part of “God’s Pure Religion” = “… and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. …” = the “Virginity” part of the Parable of the 5 Wise and 5 Foolish Virgins in Matthew 25:1 – 13.

 

and

 

“Charity Doctrine Part of God’s Pure Religion” = “…27PURE AND UNDEFILED RELIGION before GOD AND THE FATHER is this: to VISIT ORPHANS AND WIDOWS in THEIR TROUBLE, …” = the “Oil & Lamp” part of the Parable of the 5 Wise and 5 Foolish Virgins in Matthew 25:1 – 13. as Blessed Martin Luther too Preaching this same meaning in Essence:

 

“… Therefore, let each one see to it that he has these two together: the OIL, which is TRUE FAITH and trust in Christ; and the LAMPS, the VESSEL, which is the OUTWARD SERVICE TOWARD YOUR NEIGHBOR. The WHOLE CHRISTIAN LIFE CONSISTS in THESE TWO THINGS things: BELIEVE GOD. HELP YOUR NEIGHBOR. The WHOLE GOSPEL TEACHES this. PARENTS should TELL IT TO THEIR CHILDREN at HOME and EVERYWHERE. Children, too, should CONSTANTLY FOSTER THIS WORD AMONG THEMSELVES. I should really say something about the sleep of the virgins and about the setting out of the Bridegroom for the wedding. But the hour is late. Another time. May God be gracious to us! Amen. …”- The First Champion of the Protestant Faith, Blessed Martin Luther’s Sermon (which was translated in 2013 by the Rev. Paul A. Rydecki, On Faith and Good Works, Preached in Erfurt at St. Michaeliskirche on the Day of the 11,000 Virgins (October 21st), 1522)

 

Source: http://www.godwithuslc.org/luther-sermon-for-trinity-27/

 

Please note Martin Luther’s definition of “oil and lamp” as follows from this last quote from him and the Conclusion of the Gospel’s True Faith too:

 

  1. Meaning of OIL

 

“… OIL, which is TRUE FAITH and trust in Christ; …” – Martin Luther

 

  1. Meaning of LAMP

 

“… and the LAMPS, the VESSEL, which is the OUTWARD SERVICE TOWARD YOUR NEIGHBOR. …” – Martin Luther

 

7) Church Fathers

 

There are many Church Father’s quote on Almsgiving and its relation to eternal life but I am only going to focus on St. Polycarp’s quote because it’s highly unlikely that a direct disciple of the Apostles can make such a crucial error of quoting this phrase “ALMS DELIEVERS FROM DEATH“, to quote:

 

“… STAND FAST, therefore, in these things, and FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD, being firm and UNCHANGEABLE IN THE FAITH, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]” Be all of you subject one to another? having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,” that YE MAY BOTH RECEIVE PRAISE FOR YOUR GOOD WORKS, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But WOE TO HIM by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, CHAPTER X.–EXHORTATION TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

 

St. Polycarp is quoting the Tobit section below:

 

“…  6 Then he said to them SECRETLY: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. 7 For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. 8 PRAYER IS GOOD WITH FASTING AND ALMS MORE THAN to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For ALMS DELIVERETH from DEATH, and the same is that which PURGETH AWAY SINS, and maketh to FIND MERCY AND LIFE EVERLASTING. … 15 For I am the angel RAPHAEL, one of the seven who stand before the Lord. …” (Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 12:6 – 9, 15)

 

Source: https://biblescripture.net/Tobias.html

 

Yes, he is this ‘same St. Polycarp’ whom we discussed in earlier link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161345925087784

 

I already explained why and how I think these First Christianity Quotes are “not” tampered with by Roman Catholics/Orthodox even when I’m a Protestant in detail in link below and that’s why we continue the discussion next assuming that St. Polycarp’s quote above is authentic:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161346987457784

 

Alternate ‘Possibility’: Could St. Polycarp be quoting Proverbs 11:4 instead of Tobit 12:9 above which generally scholars propose?

How?

 

If “Almsgiving” or “Alms” is generally the meaning assigned to “Righteousness” as per the Jewish Context discussed earlier, then please consider this same Verse with the word “Righteousness” replaced with “Alms” and we get the similar quote by St. Polycarp:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but ALMS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “ALMS” substituted for “Righteousness” instead)

 

This is ‘possible’ as the interchange between the word “righteousness” and “alms” are often done by ‘Jewish Scholars’ likewise as point 3 earlier that:

 

“…  This use is seen in the Talmud and in the frequent translations of the Hebrew word for “righteousness” (tsedhaqah) by “alms” (eleemosune) in the Septuagint, though nothing warranting this is found in the Hebrew Old Testament, or in the true text of the New Testament.  …” – International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/topical/a/alms.htm

 

Regardless, one thing is clear: St. Polycarp quotes “Alms delivers from Death”. Which “Death”? As the phrase “RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH” (in Proverbs 11:4) refers to the Context of the “DAY of WRATH” to which it is compared, St. Polycarp’s quote also may refer to this same context (if he was quoting Proverbs 11:4) and if he was quoting Tobit 12:9 instead, then it’s still in this same Context of not going to Hell type of Judgment likewise and so it does not matter, just interesting to know.

 

8) Proverbs 11:4’s Internal Evidence of the Text

 

Dilemma: Since the Hebrew language has even in the time of Christ used the word “righteousness” to denote “alms” exclusively, how can we be sure that the Verse here is not using the Original Word for “Alms” instead of “Righteousness” instead? I mean the same way the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says that “copyists” error could have made Matthew 6:1’s word for “righteousness” as “alms” in “oriental translations” (referring to Jewish Translations) as discussed in post in link below,

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161335175402784

 

Then the possibility also exists in reverse where we may be looking at the copyist error that Proverbs 11:4 should read “Alms Delivers from Death” (with the assumption St. Polycarp is quoting this Verse) instead of “RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. “. If this is so, please Compare:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV)

 

versus:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but ALMS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “ALMS” substituted for “Righteousness” instead)

 

Which is more likely referred to here?

 

  1. Context of Opposite of Righteousness

 

Did you notice that “RICHES” is compared to as not profiting in the “DAY of WRATH” and its antithesis here is most likely “ALMS” instead of “RIGHTEOUSNESS”, right?

 

In other words, the opposite of ‘righteousness’ is ‘sinning’ and so if the Verse was written like this, then ‘righteousness would be a best fit’:

 

“… 4SINNING profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “SINNING” substituted for “RICHES” instead)

 

However this is not Written.

 

  1. Context of Opposite of Riches

 

If we accept Proverbs 11:4 as it is, then “RICHES” is the ‘opposite’ of ‘RIGHTEOUSNESS’ because it’s compared like that linguistically here where some may add because riches can lead to sin but that’s not meant here by comparison as it must rather mean that riches decreases righteousness or doesn’t profit for righteousness at all.

 

There is another ‘possibility’ where if “Alms” was the “Righteousness” meant here, then the opposite of “Hoarding Riches” is “Almsgiving” and the linguistic part matches perfectly as follows:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but ALMS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “ALMS” substituted for “Righteousness” instead)

 

That means RICHES condemns you on “Judgment Day” (DAY of WRATH) unless it is used for sharing/giving via ALMS which can DELIEVER you from the Second DEATH Judgment.

 

For me, the internal linguistics and comparison made to riches instead of sin and the Context of Judgment Day quoted seem to point to this Possibility as very strong as even St. Polycarp’s “Alms delivers from Death” quote earlier might support.

 

Conclusion – A Biblical Solution via Lord Jesus Christ

 

1) Sermon on the Mount Mystery regarding the definition of “righteousness”

 

The “your righteousness” needed to exceed the Pharisees’ to enter the Kingdom of Heaven to be least/greatest (in Mathew 5:19 – 20) includes the Definition of “Alms” or Charity Doctrine/Almsgiving (Matthew 6:1 – 4), Prayer (Matthew 6:5 – 15) and Fasting (Matthew 6:15 – 18) as was discussed in detail in an earlier post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161335175402784

 

So this means that apart from the definition of being “holy” (Matthew 5) Christ also included specifically these definition of “righteousness” to include “Almsgiving + Prayer + Fasting” and thus in light of this Proverbs 11:4 may be read as follows for the ‘complete meaning’:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS [Being Holy, ALMS, PRAYER and FASTING] DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV)

 

*[Emphasis Mine throughout]

 

2) If so, why would St. Polycarp exclusively only mention the one particular definition of righteousness i.e. “Alms only” in his quote “Alms delivers from Death”?

 

One possible reason is because he knew and endorsed the Jewish definition that the ‘Holiest Act a human can do by God’s Command which Fulfills All Law too’ is ‘Almsgiving/Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ to ‘Love your neighbour as yourself’ in ‘Action’ (as Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ Approved in Luke 10:25 – 37’s Parable of the Good Samaritan as Answer for “What to do for Eternal Life?” as referring to the ‘Charity Doctrine Acts of Giving/Sharing’ to be delivered from the Second “Death” in the Context of “Day of Wrath” in Proverbs 11:4 earlier too which agrees with this and Apostle St. Paul’s that this type of Love your neighbour in action fulfills all Law in Galatians 5:14).

 

3) Judgment Day Verses

 

In the other Judgment Day Verses describing possibly some surprised saved sheep in Matthew 25:31 – 46, likewise they are only congratulated for doing these Charity Doctrine Acts of our response to ‘…  When I was Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ which again may refer to the “Alms which delivers from Death” which St. Polycarp refers to as well. Matthew 25:31 – 46 in light of Proverbs 11:4 earlier too in the Context of “Day of Wrath” may also agree that “Riches” could condemn unless it is shared/given as “Alms” which could be the main/only “righteousness” referred to in this Verse which could be understood as “delivers from [Second] Death” since the “Day of Wrath” Context/Timeline puts this “Death” as referring to “Second Death” Context. Another possible meaning here is that as per Prophet Amos, Prophet Isaiah, or Christ’s quote in Point 6) earlier, these other “righteousness” (of praying/fasting/tithing) etc. are only valued as much as one does ALMS/SHARE to HELP the POOR first which may explain why in Matthew 25:31 – 46, NO other ‘righteous act’ is MENTIONED at all apart from this CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE. “Alms” is the most holiest of all righteousness can also be seen from Christ’s Famous Statement of it “Cleaning All” in Luke 11:39 – 41, Verses:

 

“… 39Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the OUTSIDE OF THE CUP and DISH CLEAN, but YOUR INWARD PART is full of [k]GREED and WICKEDNESS. 40FOOLISH ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. …”  – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:39 – 41, NKJV)

 

Note: Christ didn’t ask these Pharisees to pray more, fast more nor sing more songs and neither does Judgment Day Verses in Matthew 25:31 – 46 congratulate anyone for doing these but “Almsgiving only” proving that “without this Charity Doctrine Lifestyle”, all else may ‘not’ be accepted by God much either as these Quoted Bible Verses Reveal ‘as it is Written’

 

4) Does Alms contradict the Work of Christ?

 

An easy Christianity with “Lawlessness” referring to “not doing RIGHTEOUSNESS” is what MANY will be DECEIVED INTO and be DENIED as He Declares, “I NEVER KNEW YOU!” (Matthew 7:14, 19 – 23 first)  where in Comparison in Matthew 7:24 He compares the Saved Christian as the one ‘Obeying His Commands’ (which we have quoted throughout here too):

 

“… 14Because NARROW is the gate and DIFFIULT is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. …  19Every tree that does NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT is cut down and THROWN INTO THE FIRE. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven. 22MANY will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we NOT PROPHESIED in Your name, CAST OUT DEMONS in Your name, and DONE MANY WONDERS in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’. 24“Therefore WHOEVER HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN who BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:14, 19 – 24, NKJV)

 

This is a very common ‘protestant fallacy’ because the same way they preach that ‘holiness’ does not Contradict the Work of Christ but we are to do it, Almsgiving Doctrine may be understood likewise as CHRIST HIMSELF is the ONE TEACHING IT in MANY OF THESE QUOTED VERSES AS IT IS WRITTEN.

 

In light of Christ’s Quotes we understand that the “Charity Doctrine” removes the “Judgment of Sins”  but it cannot give new life nor give Resurrection. Only the Blood of Christ Can Remove Sin itself and bring us to the Resurrection Life beginning within us on earth itself. So only Christ’s Atonement and Work Gives us Life. The Almsgiving stops the ‘Judgment of Sins’, nothing more as that’s the Context meant in Tobit or elsewhere in Verses quoted here (even in Christ’s Parable of the Rich Man and Beggar Lazarus too which Speaks of this absence of Charity Doctrine leads straight to Hell in Luke 16:19 – 31) by which even Lazarus can be ‘spared of that Judgment’ too.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did Roman Catholics/Orthodox Change the Church Fathers’ Writings?

 

I don “not” think they changed it. Please take note that I am “not” a Roman Catholic “nor” Orthodox but a Protestant chiefly because I do “not” pray to Virgin Mary nor the saints nor believe in paying indulgences for sins or equivalent.

 

Example Question 1

Ignatius but not st ignatious some words were inserted by the Romans to suit their doctrines. These case is in the books called the lost books of the bible of which it was prophecied in 600-570bc after christ a Church will arise whose foundation will be the devil and it will hide some books.

 

Reply 1

The Roman Catholics/Orthodox did not change early Church Fathers writings which is especially proven by the “Chiliasm” Doctrine which is the only eschatological position which can be proven by these writings to be held by the direct disciples of the apostles (not ‘other Church Fathers’). This is important because the Roman Church abandoned Chiliasm but yet it preserved the Original writings of these Church Fathers who believed that without changing that even to make them look Roman Catholic (as none of the Church Fathers quoted below believing in Chiliasm even have one prayer to Virgin Mary or equivalent, which proves yet again that no alterations were done):

 

“… Millennialism was taught by various earlier writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, and Apollinaris of Laodicea in a form now called premillennialism.[9] According to religious scholar Rev. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee,[10] “Justin’s ‘Occasional Chiliasm’ sui generis which was strongly anti-pretribulationistic was followed possibly by Pothinus in A.D. 175 and more probably (around 185) by Irenaeus”. … Melito of Sardis is frequently listed as a second century proponent of premillennialism.[12] The support usually given for the supposition is that “Jerome [Comm. on Ezek. 36] and Gennadius [De Dogm. Eccl., Ch. 52] both affirm that he was a decided millenarian.”[13] In the early third century, Hippolytus of Rome … Around 220, there were some similar influences on Tertullian, although only with very important and extremely optimistic (if not perhaps even postmillennial) modifications and implications. On the other hand, “Christian Chiliastic” ideas were indeed advocated in 240 by Commodian; in 250 by the Egyptian Bishop Nepos in his Refutation of Allegorists; in 260 by the almost unknown Coracion; and in 310 by Lactantius. Into the late fourth century, Bishop Ambrose of Milan had millennial leanings (Ambrose of Milan. Book II. On the Belief in the Resurrection, verse 108). Lactantius is the last great literary defender of chiliasm in the early Christian church. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

 

Also Roman Catholics/Orthodox believe in Eternal Hell clearly. So, the fact that they did “not” change St. Ignatius of Antioch’s quote which points either to a ‘broader definition of All Men’ possibly even Christ Centered Universalism is more likely authentic too as someone will only change such writings to fit ‘their doctrine’.

 

So the chances of them changing these writings is very low indeed and if so, even the Bible Manuscripts might have been changed by them.

 

Example Question 2

The lake of fire fully destroys body and soul (Matthew 10:28, Rev 20:14-15). That includes things that were made immortal like angels (Genesis 6).

 

Reply 2

 

As for the Book of 1Enoch quote here (post in link below too together with St. Ignatius’ quote as well) we know that this must be authentic because the “Dead Sea Scrolls discovery” is a 20th century one and the Scrolls prove that even the translated “Ethiopian Version” and “the Greek Fragments” of the preserved ones by these Roman Catholics/Orthodox was correctly preserved without alterations as I have never heard of any scholar pointing out differences in it to prove such an accusation, link:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161344813172784

 

Dead Sea Scrolls Discovery links:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Dead_Sea_Scrolls

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

 

So whether the Lake of Fire fully destroys the body and soul or causes the possible change described in the Book of 1Enoch via ‘Believing after Seeing’, I am “not” sure and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept it.

 

Conclusion – Don’t over Condemn that which the Bible Verses don’t Condemn too strongly either

 

God Knows that Christians will err too but “not” all errors lead to ‘loss of Salvation’. For example please consider the Verses below which Speak of “Worship of Angels” (which is an “Idolatry“) but somehow the Bible Verse below only seems to imply a “loss of reward” and “not Salvation” (and that’s why I point that such equivalent errors of ‘Praying/Worshipping to Mary/Saints’ is wrong likewise but how far God Decides to Judge it, let God Decide), to quote:

 

“… Let NO ONE CHEAT YOU of YOUR REWARD, taking delight in false humility and WORSHIP OF ANGELS, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, …” (Colossians 2:18, NKJV)

 

Please take note that the Verse in Colossians 2:18 does “not” say “loss of Salvation” (for example like Hebrews 10:29) but only a “loss of reward” for “worshipping angels” (a type of “idolatry”) and so they may “not” inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 11) to become “kings and priests” (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 1:6) but may be “saved by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15) or not (as God Shows Mercy on whomever He Wills, Romans 9:15 – 16) being among the least in His Kingdom (Matthew 5:19). Yes those who “worship angels” (or such equivalents whilst being a Christian) are said to be “disconnected” from the “Head of Christ” and may “lose their reward” & since “Salvation is not a Reward” (Ephesians 2:8 – 9), it seems like they can still be saved perhaps by fire case as 1 Corinthians 3:15 explains:

 

“… 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE. …” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

I still believe that God can Save any Christian who errs on these aspects but you risk “losing your greater reward” if you did it as per the Bible Verse above (Matthew 5:19).

 

I am “not” softening any error “nor” over condemning but keeping it to the literal Biblical Verse about it in Context of Colossians 2:18 above especially when an error is done by “Christians” as let “God Decide to show Mercy or Condemn”, while we do it ‘Gently’, Verse:

 

“… 1“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:1 – 2, NKJV)

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

God’s Friendship and Love Mystery

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161349671162784

 

Bible Verses:

 

“…  12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13GREATER LOVE has no one than this, than to LAY DOWN ONE’S LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14You are MY FRIENDS if you do WHATEVER I COMMAND YOU.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 15:12 – 14, NKJV)

 

Comments:

 

1) Indeed but Love has Gradation as His Love is Greatest toward whom He Calls “Friends” (John 15:13) referring to “only those who do His Commandments” (John 15:14) in Verses above. Which Commands? Any New Testament Command especially those from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 to Matthew 7 (Example: focus on the hardest ‘perfection’ commands is toughest but the ‘Church Fathers’ did it) even to the “Written” (1 Corinthians 14:37) Commands of the Lord through His Apostles (2 Peter 3:2, Matthew 28:20) and we should “not go beyond what is Written” as ‘Doctrine’ (1 Corinthians 4:5 – 17).

 

“… 18And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. …” (Matthew 28:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

 

“… 36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I AM WRITING TO YOU is the LORD’S COMMAND. 38But IF ANYONE IGNORES THIS, THEY WILL THEMSELVES BE IGNORED …” (1 Corinthians 14:36 – 38, NIV)

 

 

“… Therefore JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COMES, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. 6Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us NOT TO THINK BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7For who [d]MAKES YOU DIFFER FROM ANOTHER? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? … 14I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16Therefore I URGE YOU, IMITATE ME. 17For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.  …” (1 Corinthians 4:5 – 7, 14 – 17, NKJV)

 

“… that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the COMMANDMENT of us, the APOSTLES OF THE LORD and SAVIOR, …” (2 Peter 3:2, NKJV)

 

2) Now emulate that Greatest Love we are Commanded the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle (in 1 John 3:16 – 18)  as the ‘same Context’ of ‘Laying Down His Life is first quoted’ in Verses below and since we cannot die for another’s sins like Christ Did, the Bible Speaks the Alternative of the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle of “laying down our lives” in action like that as equivalent to ‘Martyrdom’ in principle to Emulate His Love likewise:

 

“… 16By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN. 17But WHOEVER HAS THIS WORLD’S GOODS, and SEES HIS BROTHER IN NEED, AND SHUTS UP HIS HEART FROM HIM, HOW DOES THE LOVE OF GOD ABIDE IN HIM? 18My little children, let us NOT LOVE IN WORD or IN TONGUE, BUT IN DEED AND IN TRUTH …” (1 John 3:16 – 18, NKJV)

 

3)  Also, even among Christians, the Thirty-fold Sixty-fold and Hundredfold fruit  (Matthew 13:8) and Reward (Matthew 19:29) Speak of Gradation of least Vs greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19) according to how much of His Commandments we obey (Matthew 5:20, Matthew 7:24).

 

“… But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. …” (Matthew 13:8, KJV)

 

“… 19Whoever therefore BREAKS one of the least of THESE COMMANDMENTS, and teaches men so, shall be called LEAST in the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES THEM, he shall be called GREAT in the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 20For I say to you, that unless YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEEDS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by NO MEANS ENTER THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19 – 20, NKJV)

 

The Measure is His Commands not ‘gifts of prophecy, cast out demons nor miracles’ as MANY converted based on that and claiming that are DENIED by HIM in Verses below for “not Obeying His Written Commands” as Matthew 7:24 refers to the Context of the Sermon on the Mount from Matthew 5 to Matthew 7:

 

“… 22MANY will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we NOT PROPHESIED in Your name, CAST OUT DEMONS in Your name, and DONE MANY WONDERS in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’. 24“Therefore WHOEVER HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN who BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:14, 19 – 24, NKJV)

 

If anyone says that God’s Love based on how much we obey is unfair, then may that person prove their unconditional love toward their own children where let their children grow up to be murderers, rapists, rude to them, beat them up also do drugs, get drunk and not work (and  these parents work hard and provide for the lazy), and if possible get your inheritance and waste it away make you live on the streets. Then if you can love them unconditionally or enjoy such wickedness, then you can say it should be such. Can you see the absurdity please?

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

Mystery of Our own righteousness vs God’s Righteousness with Emphasis on the Life of Blessed Charles Spurgeon the Prince of Preachers

 

Bible Verses:

 

“… 2For I bear them witness that they have a ZEAL FOR GOD, but NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE. 3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. …” (Romans 10:2 – 3, NKJV)

 

 

Context/Meaning:

 

1) Salvation is only by Christ’s Righteousness and by Believing in Him.

 

2) The “your righteousness” Christ Spoke of in Matthew 5:19 – 20 determines ‘your reward level in the Kingdom of Heaven (for those saved)’ as it depends on “Obeying God’s Commands”.

 

3) In principle of Romans 10:2 which states “…  zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. …” if applied to “your righteousness” for ‘reward level in Heaven not Salvation’ (Matthew 5:19 – 20), then those faith that “… deny Written Commands …” may be doing “… their own righteousness instead of submitting to God’s Righteousness …” as some New Testament Verses have warned regarding “being crowned” (as finishing the race of faith itself doesn’t necessarily mean being “crowned”) unless one runs according to the “RULES specified in WRITTEN SCRIPTURE” as per Verses below:

 

 

 

  1. i) No ‘Race of Faith’ is “Crowned” unless it’s “according to the Rules” or if they Teach against Scripture, it’s to the “… RUIN OF THE HEARERS. …” and the Context here is “God’s Commands in Action” (not ‘eschasthalogy’ or anything else), Verses:

 

“… 5And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is NOT CROWNED unless he COMPETES ACCORDING to THE RULES. … 14REMIND them of THESE THINGS, charging them before the Lord not to [d]strive about words to no profit, to the RUIN OF THE HEARERS. … ” (2 Timothy 2:5, 14, NKJV)

 

  1. ii) There is “no” Race of Faith based on ‘obeying or doing things beyond what is Written only’ in New Testament Scripture:

 

“… that you may learn in us NOT TO THINK BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. … 14I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16Therefore I URGE YOU, IMITATE ME. 17For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH. …” (1 Corinthians 4:4, 14 – 17, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

 

Examples:

 

1) Fearing God

 

Those who “Fear God” will do two things namely, “Give Alms” (Charity Doctrine) + “Pray Always”, Verses:

 

“… 1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]Regiment, 2a DEVOUT MAN and ONE WHO FEARED GOD with all his household, who GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY to the people, and PRAYED TO GOD ALWAYS  …” (Acts 10:1 – 2, NKJV)

 

Comment: A True “Fear God Doctrine” will likewise Teach both aspects above namely:

 

  1. GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY (Charity Doctrine Lifestyle)
  2. PRAYED TO GOD ALWAYS

 

Nothing else is mentioned in these Verses meaning these are the “First Definitions” of “Fearing God” which the “Bible has approved its Meaning as it is Written“.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Disobedience

 

Inability to Obey (“Keep” His Words or Keep “His Sayings”) may cause “Many” to be “Denied” from the “First Resurrection” as it’s LAWLESSNESS despite “Converting that same Many based on Casting out Demons, Prophesying and Miracles in His Name“, Verses:

 

“… 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22MANY will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’ 24“Therefore WHOEVER HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN WHO BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” (Matthew 7:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

3) Holy Spirit

 

The Sign of the Most Blessed Holy Spirit is “how much of His Commands we can keep” and ‘not’ everyone has the ‘other Gifts’ where the Greatest Gift is “Love” (Agape in Action), Verses:

 

“… 27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are ALL WORKERS OF MIRACLES? 30DO ALL HAVE GIFTS OF HEALINGS? DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the [i]best gifts. And YET I SHOW YOU A MORE EXCELLENT WAY*. …” (1 Corinthians 12:27 – 30, NKJV)

 

*of “Agape” (Love of God) as 1 Corinthians 13 Revealed next to Verses above while in Verses below it’s the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’:

 

 

“… 16By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN. 17But WHOEVER HAS THIS WORLD’S GOODS, and SEES HIS BROTHER IN NEED, AND SHUTS UP HIS HEART FROM HIM, HOW DOES THE LOVE OF GOD ABIDE IN HIM? 18My little children, let us NOT LOVE IN WORD or IN TONGUE, BUT IN DEED AND IN TRUTH …” (1 John 3:10 – 18, NKJV)

 

“… 13HOLD FAST The PATTERN OF SOUND WORDS which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14That good thing which was committed to you, KEEP BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells in us. …” (2 Timothy 1:13 – 14, NKJV)

 

Comment: If ‘Casting out Demons, Miracles, Prophecies’ were keeping His Commandments, then it “contradicts” 1 Corinthians 12:27 – 30 above which states that these “Gifts” (though Good) but are “not” for all believers (meaning it cannot be the Commandments meant for every believer).

 

 

Comment: If some claim some new ways against ‘Written Scripture Rules’, “no” need to be harsh in condemning them either because we are “not” sure if God Showed them a ‘new way‘ and so better not to judge (Matthew 7:1 – 2).

 

But we remind them also “not” to force “nor” disturb us to “accept their new ways” simply because the “First Way of Scripture by obeying these Quotes New Testament Verses is already approved by God 100% and has ZERO CONDEMNATION if we obey it”, examples:

 

  1. ‘women pastors presiding over their men’ against 1 Timothy 2:12

 

“… 10but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12And I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMAN TO TEACH OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE. …” (1 Timothy 2:10 – 12, NKJV)

 

 

or No silence of women in their congregations against 1 Corinthians 14:34

 

“… 34WOMEN  SHOULD REMAIN SILENT IN THE CHURCHES. They are NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK, but must be in SUBMISSION, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is DISGRACEFUL FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK IN THE CHURCH. 36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a PROPHET or otherwise GIFTED BY THE SPIRIT, let them ACKNOWLEDGE that what I am WRITING to you is the LORD’S COMMAND. 38But IF ANYONE IGNORES THIS, THEY WILL THEMSELVES BE IGNORED …” (1 Corinthians 14:34 – 38, NIV)

 

Comment: These I have discussed in Pages 440 to 466 in this Book quoting the best Protestants including Blessed Martin Luther (the First Protestant),  Blessed John Calving (Founder of 5-Point Calvinism/Tulips Doctrine), Blessed John Wesley (Founder of Methodism) and even Blessed Charles Spurgeon (Prince of Preachers).

 

Please allow me to quote “Blessed Charles Spurgeon” alone here for a short example quote here (more quotes are in those pages mentioned):

 

“… But this commitment also meant that in areas where Scripture was clear, Spurgeon dared not trespass, no matter where his enlightened culture was going. In his sermon, “The Head of the Church,” Spurgeon declared,

 

When we meet together in church-meeting we cannot make laws for the Lord’s kingdom; we dare not attempt it. Such necessary regulations as may be made for carrying out our Lord’s commands, to meet for worship, and to proclaim the gospel, are commendable, because they are acts needful to obedience to his highest laws; but even these minor details are not tolerable if they clearly violate the spirit and mind of Jesus Christ. . . . Law-making in the church was finished in that day when the curse was pronounced on him who should take from or add to the word of God. Christ alone is the legislator of his church—none but he . . . has left to us his Statute-book, sufficient to guide us in every dilemma. …

 

or

 

Spurgeon believed that the preaching of the Word in the gathering of the church was restricted to men, along with the office of elders and deacons. At the same time, his predominant emphasis was on calling women to engage in ministry in all the other ways that were available to them.

 

When it came to the gathering of the church, Spurgeon believed that, according to Scripture, women were not to preach. Preaching on Matthew 8:14, 15, “First Healing and the Service,” Spurgeon commends the example of Peter’s mother-in-law:

 

But notice that what this good woman did was very appropriate. Peter’s wife’s mother did not get out of bed and go down the street and deliver an address to an assembled multitude. Women are best when they are quiet. I share the apostle Paul’s feelings when he bade women be silent in the assembly. Yet there is work for holy women, and we read of Peter’s wife’s mother that she arose and ministered to Christ. She did what she could and what she should. She arose and ministered to him. Some people can do nothing that they are allowed to do, but waste their energies in lamenting that they are not called on to do other people’s work. Blessed are they who do what they should do. It is better to be a good housewife, or nurse, or domestic servant, than to be a powerless preacher or a graceless talker. …”

 

Source (via Mr. Alex DiPrima is the Senior Pastor of Emmanuel Church in Winston Salem, NC. He holds a PhD from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in historical theology with an emphasis in the ministry of Charles Spurgeon & Mr. Geoff Chang serves as an assistant professor of church history and historical theology and is also the curator of the Spurgeon Library at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary):

 

https://www.9marks.org/article/charles-spurgeon-womens-ministry-and-female-preachers/

 

 

Why?

 

Because despite teaching all these ‘strict Doctrine’, historical records Testify that Blessed Charles Spurgeon was used to do Miracles by God more than others and SO THEIR CLAIMS of HAVING SOME SPECIAL GIFTS only if WE DENY THESE BIBLE VERSES IS BASELESS (and hence the title ‘Prince of Preachers’ was conferred to him on account of his most widespread influence till today in Protestantism too), to quote:

 

  1. a) Charles Spurgeon may have been used by GOD to HEAL MORE PEOPLE in MIRACLES despite all these ‘STRICT DOCTRINES he Preached and Believed’, to quote:

 

“… “Yet, NO MAN PROBABLY, IN ENGLAND or in AMERICA, IN THIS CENTURY, HAS EVER HEALED SO MANY PEOPLE as did MR. SPURGEON, although he was not himself a physician and never wrote prescriptions. He felt that there was UNEXPLAINABLE MYSTERY ABOUT THE WHOLE MATTER. Yet, he asserted that there was SOME POWER CONNECTED WITH PRAYER which ought to be used when persons were in pain and could be relieved by it.” from “The Life of Charles Haddon Spurgeon” by Russell H. Conwell. …”

 

Source (with more details):  https://www.healingandrevival.com/BioCHSpurgeon.htm

 

  1. b) Charles Spurgeon Taught that ANY CHRISTIAN can Baptize not just particular chuches/pastors/denominations:

 

“… Oh, I would that the church could hear the Savior addressing these words to her now, for the words of Christ are living words, not having power in them yesterday alone, but today also. The injunctions of the Savior are perpetual in their obligation, they were not binding upon merely apostles, but upon us also, and upon EVERY CHRISTIAN does this yoke fall, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”  …” – Blessed Charles Spurgeon (Prince of Preachers, On April 21, 1861, Charles Spurgeon delivered a sermon titled “The Missionaries’ Charge and Charter” (#383) addressing the core of the missionary task.)

 

Source:

https://www.abwe.org/blog/charles-spurgeon-how-fulfill-great-commission-troubled-times

 

  1. c) Charles Spurgeon was “never” officially a “an ordained pastor nor priest” for any denomination

 

“… Baptists had a long tradition of ordaining ministers, for example, but Spurgeon managed to get his church to omit this step—he never was ordained. He campaigned arduously to do without the customary title, Reverend, and he eventually succeeded in replacing it with Pastor. …”

 

Source: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-29/what-did-spurgeon-believe.html

 

  1. d) Charles Spurgeon is the No.1 most influential Christian History apart from Bible ones

 

“… Charles Haddon Spurgeon is history’s most widely read preacher (apart from the biblical ones). Today, there is available more material written by Spurgeon than by any other Christian author, living or dead. …”

 

Source: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-29/charles-h-spurgeon-did-you-know.html

 

  1. e) Charles Spurgeon didn’t believe in Speaking in Tongues nor in Progressive Revelations

 

Charles Spurgeon is a little harsh in his words toward those who speak in tongues but we need “not” judge either way (just using this to prove that true Men of God didn’t endorse it at all too throughout the Protestant Reformation), example in link below:

 

“… “I have heard many fanatical persons say the Holy Spirit revealed this and that to them. Now that is very generally revealed nonsense. The Holy Ghost does not reveal anything fresh now. He brings old things to our remembrance. “He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have told you.” The canon of revelation is closed; there is no more to be added. God does not give a fresh revelation, but he rivets the old one. When it has been forgotten, and laid in the dusty chamber of our memory, he fetches it out and cleans the picture, but does not paint a new one. There are no new doctrines, but the old ones are often revived. It is not, I say, by any new revelation that the Spirit comforts. He does so by telling us old things over again; he brings a fresh lamp to manifest the treasures hidden in Scripture; he unlocks the strong chests in which the truth had long lain, and he points to secret chambers filled with untold riches; but he coins no more, for enough is done. Believer! there is enough in the Bible for thee to live upon for ever.” …” – Blessed Charles Spurgeon (Prince of Preachers)

 

Source (official Spurgeon Pages):

 

https://hearspurgeon.com/5-2

 

or

 

https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-comforter/

 

We can be neutral and not support either Christianity in this Context if we are not sure as discussed in detail in post below to be ‘safe’ and ‘not accidentally speak any Blasphemy to the Holy Spirit’ either way:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10160853112937784

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

iii. Post Tribulation  Rapture

 

Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther, John  Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, William Tyndale, John Wesley and others all taught “post-tribulation rapture only likewise” link:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10160859868082784

or

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10160859818692784

 

 

I have discussed the quotes from these ‘same Protestant Founders’ in Pages 224 to 230 (from free pdf Book titled’ Christian Perfection’) below quoting in detail these “Post-Tribulation Rapture” quotes by these greats in those pages:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QUjb1K0SLoxJ6E3Zo5oWY0_RH8FCPloP/view?usp=sharing

 

Also, Logic: Please read both sides before deciding your belief/faith accordingly for reward if right One Day by God as per post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161407047987784

 

Background: In the Thesis below (on Pages 83/72 till Pages 96/85), the author seems to propose some type of “Pre-Tribulation/Mid-Tribulation Rapture” theory by quoting some early Christian Writings which we have quoted too (and you may ‘compare both and decide for yourselves which is right’):

 

https://digitalshowcase.oru.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cotm_pub

 

Note: The other parts of the Thesis is irrelevant as if these earliest writings (especially St. Irenaeous’ Teach differently), what are the chances that others are going to be right? Safe Route: I follows St. Irenaeous’ in this too as usual.

 

If really keen, please read around Page 500 in free book in link below where I discuss these other quotes likewise as well (and you can compare both sides):

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kz5fi19txCkQOdmPX5bJ0UwNWV6ZhgVR/view?usp=sharing

 

 

  1. Absence of the Charity Doctrine

 

Some Christians have ‘no Charity Doctrine to fulfill the Justice and Love of God part against Luke 11:39 – 42’s Christ Exhortation to do so as He Commanded “…These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone …” which I have discussed throughout these quoted books in links even with Bible Verses.

 

Here is Blessed Charles Spurgeon (the ‘Prince of Preachers’ himself whom we quoted in “point ii earlier”) in “Action” regarding this “Charity Doctrine”, to quote:

 

“… In 1876, 22 years after becoming pastor, Spurgeon published “The Metropolitan Tabernacle: Its History and Work”.[18] His intention stated in the preface is to give a ‘printed history of the Tabernacle’.The book has 15 chapters and of these 5 are given over to what he called ‘Societies and Institutions’.

 

Metropolitan Tabernacle Almshouse

The Five Chapters are:

 

  1. The Almshouses. Explaining how the New Park Street Chapel site was sold to allow the Tabernacle to build an Almshouse and school.

 

 

Stockwell_Orphanage_1876

xiii. The Stockwell Orphanage. This opened for 240 boys in 1867 (and later for girls in 1879). These orphanages continued in London until they were bombed in the Second World War. The inspiration for starting an orphanage came from a visit with George Muller.[19][20][21] The orphanage changed its name to Spurgeon’s Child Care in 1937,[22] and again in 2005 to Spurgeons.[23][24] Spurgeon was linked more with the Stockwell orphanage than any other Metropolitan Tabernacle endeavour. There are probably four reasons for this:

 

  1. It was a large set of buildings in London occupying four acres. 2. There was an annual fundraiser at which Spurgeon chose to celebrate his birthday,[25] and often the laying of a foundation stone.[26] The event was called ‘one of the largest bazaars and fancy fairs ever held in South London’[27] – in one day 1,000 was raised [28] – a lot considering entry was sixpence.[29] Spurgeon accepted money gifts for his birthday, which all went to the orphanage.[30] 3. The Orphanage choir and bell ringers performed concerts to fundraise [31] 4. It had such a large operating budget compared with other Tabernacle activities.

 

xiiv. The Colportage Association. Colporters were employed to take Bibles, good books and periodicals for sale, from house to house. They also were involved in visiting the sick and holding meetings.

 

  1. Other Institutions Connected with the Tabernacle. Here Spurgeon describes 21 other ‘Institutions’. Two examples are: The Ordinance Poor Fund which distributed money amongst poor members of the church of about £800 annually, and the Ladies’ Benevolent Society. This group made clothing for the poor and ‘relieved’ them, with an income of £105.

 

Eight years later at Spurgeon’s fiftieth birthday celebration an updated list of ‘Societies and Institutions’ was read out.[32] With Spurgeon’s strong encouragement and support the 24 groups listed in ‘The Metropolitan Tabernacle: Its History and Work’, had become 69. Before they are read out Spurgeon says: “I think everybody should know what the church has been moved to do, and I beg to say that there are other societies besides those which will be mentioned, but you will be tired before you get to the end of them.” and finishes after the list by saying: “We have need to praise God that he enables the church to carry on all these institutions.”

 

 

Spurgeon had one Infirmary built, at the Stockwell Orphanage. However, he also recognised that the poor had limited access to health care and so was also an enthusiastic supporter of the Metropolitan Hospital Sunday Fund. He left us this quote:[35]

 

 

The Stockwell Orphanage Infirmary

 

We must have more hospitals. I do not know whether we shall not be obliged to make the Government spend something in this direction. I don’t believe in the Government doing anything well. I generally feel sorry when anything has to be left to the Government. I don’t mean this Government in particular, but any Government which may be in office for the time being. It is six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. I have a very small opinion of the whole lot. There are some things which we should try ourselves to do as long as ever we can; but if we are driven up a corner, it may come to what I fear. Bones must be set, and the sick must be cared for; the poor must not be left to die, in order not to have to go to the Government for help. So let us all try to give what we can. It is your duty to give, not merely as Christians, but as men. I like the Hospital Sunday movement, for all Christian people can meet, as we are met here to-night, on one platform.

 

…”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon

 

 

4) Written Commandments

 

Any walk of being “Closer to God” involves more of “His Commands” as the Sign of “His Love” (and so the reverse may be true in that the ‘inability to keep the “Written” Commands of the Lord, e.g. 1 Corinthians 14:37 may be dangerous or lacks love back toward God, Let God Decide), Verses:

 

“… IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP [Obey] MY COMMANDMENTS. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:15, NKJV)

 

“… 23JESUS ANSWERED and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will KEEP MY WORD; and MY FATHER WILL LOVE HIM, and WE WILL COME TO HIM and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM. 24He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. …” (John 14:23 – 24, NKJV)

 

“… 19Whoever therefore BREAKS one of the LEAST of THESE COMMANDMENTS, and TEACHES men so, shall be called LEAST in the kingdom of HEAVEN; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES them, he shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of HEAVEN. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19, NKJV)

 

“… 46“But WHY DO YOU CALL ME ‘LORD, LORD,’ and NOT DO THE THINGS WHICH I SAY? 47Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:46 – 48, NKJV)

 

“… 18And JESUS CAME AND SPOKE TO THEM, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. …” (Matthew 28:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

“… 13MAKING THE WORD OF GOD OF NO EFFECT THROUGH YOUR TRADITION which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:13, NKJV)

 

Not all Disobedience to the “Written Word” Leads to “Denial” as ‘there is a sin NOT leading to Death’ (which is difficult to expound because the “Written” Bible Verses didn’t expound further) and so let’s just Warn people based on Verses above and ‘Let God Alone do the Judging part’, Verses:

 

“… 16If anyone SEES HIS BROTHER SINNING A SIN WHICH DOES NOT LEAD TO DEATH, HE WILL ASK, and HE WILL GIVE HIM LIFE FOR THOSE WHO COMMIT SIN NOT LEADING TO DEATH. THERE IS SIN LEADING TO DEATH. I do NOT say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and THERE IS SIN NOT LEADING TO DEATH. …” (1 John 5:16 – 17, NKJV)

 

Your Job is Done after ‘Preaching the Bible Verses’ for “His Commands” part:

 

“… When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and YOU DO NOT SPEAK TO WARN THE WICKED FROM HIS WAY, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND. Nevertheless IF YOU WARN the WICKED to TURN FROM HIS WAY, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but YOU HAVE DELIVERED YOUR SOUL. …” (Ezekiel 33:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

 

Peace to you

 

Knowledge increases Rewards but Salvation is always evidenced by its “Fruit” namely “Good Works + Holiness” together by “relative measure” as John the Baptist himself declared “bear fruits worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:8, Matthew 3:8).

 

 

 

 

 

Remarks – Deeper Insights or “Possibilities” based on the Bible with the Shepherd of Hermas

 

1) The Shepherd of Hermas Quote regarding the Eleventh Mountain seem to point not just to martyrdom but also the general “suffering” for Christ to be categorised into two categories namely, those that willingly suffer (great fruits/rewards/glory) Vs those who are forced to or have to to be saved (lesser fruits/lesser glory/lesser rewards) because the latter is said to be “with much sin” and thus “without such suffering” they “cannot be saved” since they have “no” willing “fruits” in their lives implying for example that these could be living “selfish lifestyles prior”.

 

Please also note that a willing “laying down of life” which is the opposite of the “selfish lifestyle” is clearly revealed as the “Charity Doctrine Lifestyle” in 1 John 3:16 – 18 which marks it to be possibly equal to the willing martyrdom as 1 John 3:16 clearly calls it as “laying down our lives” = “willing martyrdom”.

 

Based on 1 John 3:16 – 18 itself, it’s best to self test again to see that a person who would willingly die in martyrdom type would generally be the same Christian who would love the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle suffering for the benefit of others willingly likewise (please remember “Relative Measure” as per the case of the Poor Widow with Two coins (Luke 21:1 – 4) and also that to him “more is given, more is required” (Luke 12:46 – 48) before flattering oneself unduly). Verses:

 

“… 10In this the CHILDREN OF GOD and THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL are manifest: Whoever DOES NOT PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS is not of God, NOR IS HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE HIS BROTHER. 11For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? BECAUSE HIS WORKS WERE EVIL AND HIS BROTHER’S RIGHTEOUS. … 16By this WE KNOW LOVE, because He laid down His life for us. And we also OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN. 17But WHOEVER HAS THIS WORLD’S GOODS, and SEES HIS BROTHER IN NEED, AND SHUTS UP HIS HEART FROM HIM, HOW DOES THE LOVE OF GOD ABIDE IN HIM? 18My little children, let us NOT LOVE IN WORD or IN TONGUE, BUT IN DEED AND IN TRUTH …” (1 John 3: 10 – 12, 16 – 18, NKJV)

 

 

This Principle of getting more abundant Glory by seeking to do “more of His Commands Willingly” especially those Commands (which does “not” affect your Salvation) and so to do it benefits others such as “Love your enemies type beyond same family , same church, same denomination, same race etc.” (versus some Commands which Christians keep just to save themselves from Hell) merits GREATER GLORY as per this Shepherd of Hermas Quote below too (hence it’s in Context within this same Writing too), to quote:

 

“… I said to him, “Sir, I do not see the meaning of these similitudes, nor am I able to comprehend them, unless you explain them to me.” “I will explain them all to you,” he said, “and whatever I shall mention in the course of our conversations I will show you. [Keep the commandments of the Lord, and you will be approved, and inscribed amongst the number of those who observe His commands.] AND IF YOU DO ANY GOOD BEYOND WHAT IS COMMANDED BY GOD, YOU WILL GAIN FOR YOURSELF MORE ABUNDANT GLORY, and WILL BE MORE HONOURED BY GOD THAN YOU WOULD DO OTHERWISE. If, therefore, in keeping the commandments of God, you do, in addition, these services, you will have joy if you observe them according to my command.” …” Shepherd of Hermas (Fifth Similitude, CHAPTER III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

Example of Commands which are NOT MANDATORY but OPTIONAL which can refer to the “GOOD” which are “not Commands (Mandatory)” but done “WILLINGLY”:

 

  1. i) Voluntary Poverty for the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle

 

“… 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth. What do I still lack?”21JESUS said to him, “If you want to be PERFECT, GIVE to the POOR, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, FOLLOW ME.” …” (Matthew 19:20 – 21, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

  1. ii) The Eunuch type of Faith

 

“… For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. He who is ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:12, NKJV)

 

“… 7For I WISH THAT ALL MEN WERE EVEN as I MYSELF. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8But I say to the UNMARRIED AND TO THE WIDOWS: IT IS GOOD FOR THEM IF THEY REMAIN EVEN AS I AM; 9but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. … 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have TROUBLE IN THE FLESH, but I WOULD SPARE YOU. … 32But I want you to be without care. He who is UNMARRIED CARES FOR THE THINGS OF THE LORD—how he may PLEASE THE LORD. 33But HE WHO IS MARRIED CARES about the THINGS OF THE WORLD—how he may PLEASE HIS WIFE. … 38So then he who GIVES HER IN MARRIAGE DOES WELL, but he WHO DOES NOT GIVE HER IN MARRIAGE DOES BETTER. …” (1 Corinthians 7:7 – 9, 28, 32 – 33, 38, NKJV)

 

 

“TO THE EUNUCHS who keep my sabbaths,

And CHOOSE WHAT PLEASES ME,

And hold fast My covenant,

5Even to them I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE

And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE AND A NAME

BETTER THAN THAT OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS;

I will give [a]them AN EVERLASTING NAME

That SHALL NOT BE CUT OFF. …” (Isaiah 56:4 – 5, NKJV)

 

This was discussed in detail in Pages 579 to 586 in this Book.

Note: Nothing wrong in “SEEKING for GLORY and IMMORTALITY and HONOUR” except that don’t seek it from men on earth but on “Judgment Day” from God and thus keep away from man-made doctrines which run down the encouragement to “not” bother about these non-mandatory commands/willing commands as listed above as ‘the loss of it would be eternal’ (so may God Help us to be Wise) in doing what we can BY HIS GRACE ONLY:

 

“… ETERNAL LIFE to those who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD SEEK FOR GLORY, HONOR and IMMORTALITY; …” (Romans 2:7, NKJV)

 

As long as we remember that any Good Act we could do is by “God” Working it through us, there will be “no” self-righteousness (as self-righteousness is assuming that we are doing the Good Works instead of admitting that GOD IS THE ONE DOING IT THORUGH US, the “Jesus in You” Principle) as Revealed in example Verse below:

 

“… for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO for His good pleasure. …” (Philippians 2:13, NKJV)

 

2) A Racist Christians self test

 

To see whether we are Racist Christians within, let us examine ourselves by asking for example if we will accept our sons/daughters to marry someone of a different race that person was a believer and not wicked (all other factors held constant). Apart from this, some people could be Racist within where they only help those of their own race/own family or even only try to evangelize their own race etc. Perhaps that’s why this type of Christians are actually forced to be saved only via martyrdom as the Shepherd of Hermas Quote may match in that if let in a free country, they will live racistly as Christians too. Not all are like that and blessed are those who are not racist within who if they suffer willingly, great is their glory.

 

3) The Shepherd of Hermas Quotes on the Twelve Mountains need not to be viewed as separate classes only as the wise thing to do would be to try to do the “best acts” of each class which is highly regarded before God to Please Him.

 

For example, imagine a Christian who is like a child within (as per the Twelfth Mountain description in this Shepherd of Hermas, e.g. Matthew 18:4 – 5, Mark 9:34 – 37, Mark 10:36 – 45)  who chooses to live out the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle (as per the Seventh & Tenth Mountain description in this Shepherd of Hermas, e.g. 1 John 3:16 – 18, Acts 2:44 – 46, Acts 4:32, Galatians 2:10, Matthew 19:21 – 24, Luke 10:25 – 37, Luke 12:31 – 34, Luke 11:39 – 42 etc.) but does “not” Judge others who differ from his ways by even supporting and helping those different views Christians on things which they agree instead of being schismatic (as per the seventh mountain ones, Matthew 7:1 – 2, 1 Corinthians 4:5) who if suffer willingly for the Gospel in some way to fulfil Its Commands may thus attain to greater rewards or glory, seeking Heavenly Rewards instead of earthly ones (as per the Description of the Eleventh Mountain ones in this Shepherd of Hermas, Matthew 5:47, Luke 6:32, Luke 6:33, as the “Great Reward” in Luke 6:35, as set your mind on “Heavenly things not earthly”-Colossians 3:2, which primarily Includes the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle part of Seeking His Kingdom by “Sell what you have and Give to Charity” as Christ Himself Taught in Luke 12:31 – 34 for one’s “Heart” is not determined by smooth words in glorifying God but in this Charity Doctrine as Christ Says your heart is in Heaven if your treasure is in Heaven in these Verses as “no” man can do a new way of seeking His Kingdom against what Christ has Clearly Specified in these Verses as “it is Written”).

 

4) This same Shepherd of Hermas also has a non-Elect Salvation taught clearly which is outside this ‘Christian or Elect Tower of Repentance’ as I have discussed in detail in pages 64 to 68 in the Book titled “Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24

December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

Proper Spirit-Filled Protestant Christian Doctrine from the Charity Doctrine to Eschatology and beyond in a Nutshell

The “Original Protestants”, a.k.a. the “Reformed Group” also agrees on these Two Points which we emphasize heavily namely:

 

1) “Doctrine of Giving” or the “Charity Doctrine” is a “Primary Doctrine” (Red part of the Chart under the ‘Practice Section’) which Directly affects Salvation in the “Fruits of Salvation Context”.

 

2) “End Times” Doctrine (Eschatology e.g. Eternal Hell vs Annihilation vs Universalism) is a “Secondary Doctrine” (Doesn’t affect Salvation at all but only possibly rewards) as demonstrated in image (Yellow part of the chart under the “Worldview-Shaping” Section).

 

Source for Post for image (Thanks to “Reformed Sage”):

https://www.facebook.com/TheReformedSage/photos/a.243838546072573/1501186407004441/

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

Basic Teachings regarding Christ toward Perfection Doctrines regarding Christ

 

Source Post:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161463490927784

 

1) Bible Verses below clearly Describe what is meant as “Basic (Elementary) Doctrine (i.e. “not” Deep Biblical Wisdom)”, Verses:

 

“… 1Therefore, LEAVING THE DISCUSSION OF THE ELEMENTARY PRINCIPLES OF CHRIST, let us GO ON TO [a]PERFECTION, NOT laying again the FOUNDATION of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS  and OF FAITH TOWARD GOD, 2of the DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS, of LAYING OF HANDS, of RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, and of ETERNAL JUDGMENT. 3And THIS [b]we will do IF GOD PERMITS. …” (Hebrews 6:1 – 3, NKJV)

 

Can you see it?

 

Contrary to Popular Christian Assumption, these “Doctrines” below are considered the “Elementary (Basic)” Doctrines regarding “Christ” according to Verses above:

 

  1. NOT laying again the FOUNDATION of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS and OF FAITH TOWARD GOD,

 

  1. 2of the DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS,

 

iii. of LAYING OF HANDS,

 

  1. of RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, and

 

  1. of ETERNAL JUDGMENT

 

Is there anything more than this regarding the “Doctrine of Christ”? Yes, as this same Verse above mentions “Perfection” in this phrase: ‘… 1Therefore, LEAVING THE DISCUSSION OF THE ELEMENTARY PRINCIPLES OF CHRIST, let us GO ON TO [a]PERFECTION …’.

 

This means that a Christian Denomination/Church which only Teaches or focuses on one of the above listed Doctrines is doing some type of basic ‘baby’ Christianity with “not’ much “maturity” nor any significant steps toward “Perfection” as these “Bible Verses” (‘not’ my opinion) clearly Reveal “as it is Written”. How is it even logical to says so because isn’t Speaking about Christ” is all there is? There’s more because Christ’s Own Most Blessed Words below may Reveal the “Why” part:

 

“… But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and NOT DO THE THINGS WHICH I SAY? …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:46, NKJV)

 

Example: Indeed, Preaching Christ includes not just about Him but also What He Commanded such as the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle of “Almsgiving” to clean the “Lawlessness Inside” (Matthew 23:25 – 28 and Luke 11:39 – 45).

 

2) Context

 

Now, what is this “Doctrine of Perfection” beyond those elementary (basic) Topics which is referred to in this same Chapter in Hebrews 6 itself?

 

Surprising to most, the “onlyDoctrine Toward “Perfection” mentioned immediately next (after Warning of some backsliding Christians who will “not” even pass this Basic/Elementary Doctrines in Hebrews 6:4 – 8, not quoted here to focus on this core part) which turns out to be … (you guessed it) … chiefly of the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE, Verses:

 

“… 9But, beloved, we are confident of BETTER THINGS  CONCERNING YOU, YES, THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we speak in this manner. 10For God is not unjust to forget YOUR WORK and [d]LABOR OF LOVE which you have shown toward His name, IN THAT YOU HAVE MNISTERED TO THE SAINTS, and DO MINISTER. 11And WE DESIRE THAT EACH ONE OF YOU SHOW THE SAME DILLIGENCE TO THE FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTIL THE END, 12that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience INHERIT the promises. …” (Hebrews 6:9 – 12, NKJV)

Can you see it ‘as it is Written’ please?

 

In other words, in this same chapter, same topic, same context, after exhorting Christians to move toward “Perfection” (Hebrews 6:1 – 3) and warning of those who fall away (Hebrews 6:4 – 8), the Bible Verses clearly Point to this “Doctrine of Perfection” to refer chiefly to the “Inheritance of the Kingdom” based on “one’s labor of Love” in the aspect of “ministering to the needs of one another” which is nothing else than the CHARITY DOCTRINE in Hebrews 6:9 – 12.

 

Note: You can  check and see in this Hebrews Chapter 6 itself to see that ‘no other religious action is mentioned’ (if you find one, please let me know in case I missed it).

 

4) Details of the Charity Doctrine Part in Hebrews 6 as the Doctrine of “Perfection” referred to here beyond the Basic (Elementary) Christianity

 

  1. i) It is called the “Better Things” and that it “AFFECTS SALVATION” in the Context of “LEVEL of INHERITANCE” in His Kingdom

 

“… BETTER THINGS  CONCERNING YOU, YES, THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION … 12that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience INHERIT the promises. …” …”(Hebrews 6:9, 12, NKJV)

 

  1. ii) It is Called “Working for God” when one does “Love in Action” or “Labor of Love”

 

“… 10For God is not unjust to forget YOUR WORK and [d]LABOR OF LOVE which you have shown toward His name, …” (Hebrews 6:10, NKJV)

 

iii) This definition of “Working for God/Labor of Love” is “not” arbitrary here but clearly refers to the ‘CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE only‘ to minister to each other’s “needs” (tangible giving/sharing of worldly goods clearly)

 

“… IN THAT YOU HAVE MNISTERED TO THE SAINTS, and DO MINISTER.  …” (Hebrews 6:10, NKJV)

 

  1. iv) This is what a “Perfect” Church/Christianity would be doing to the “END” knowing that this labor in the CHARITY DOCTRINE affects our ‘inheritance in the Kingdom’ as these Verses clearly imply when taken together here

 

“… 11And WE DESIRE THAT EACH ONE OF YOU SHOW THE SAME DILLIGENCE TO THE FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTIL THE END, …” (Hebrews 6:12, NKJV)

 

5) Saved by Fire

 

“…  11For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on this foundation with GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES, wood, hay, straw, 13each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.  …” (1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15, NKJV)

 

Some may be “Saved by Fire” only incurring the “Loss of Reward” while “not” all get the “Gold” or “Silver” level Reward either meaning that “not” all inheritance of the Kingdom of Heaven is same for Christians either and so, please don’t be deceived by Teachings which claim ‘you get every treasure in heaven by doing nothing’ or by doing less. Knowing these Bible Verses should encourage each Christian to live out the “CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE” to attain to these “TREASURES in HEAVEN” in the Context of “SEEK HIS KINGDOM’s INHERITANCE” (implied) as CHRIST HIMSELF CLEARLY TAUGHT (listed next).

 

6) Treasure in Heavens = Inheritance Level in His Kingdom

 

This could be the “Treasure in Heavens” that are to be obtained via the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Transaction by Relative Measure which Christ Himself Taught in these Verses Directly

 

“… 31“But SEEK HIS KINGDOM, and THESE THINGS will be ADDED TO YOU. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33“SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS and GIVE TO CHARITY; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an UNFAILING TREASURE IN HEAVEN, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 35“Be dressed in readiness, and KEEP YOUR LAMPS LIT. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:31 – 35, NASB)

 

It’s in this Context Christ Revealed the “…But MANY who are FIRST will be LAST, and the LAST FIRST. …” , Verses:

 

“… 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth. What do I still lack?”21JESUS said to him, “If you want to be PERFECT, GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE in HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away SORROWFUL, for he had GREAT POSSESSIONS.23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is HARD for a RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 24And AGAIN I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. … 27Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have LEFT ALL and FOLLOWED YOU. Therefore what shall we have?” … 28So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the REGENERATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And EVERYONE who has LEFT HOUSES or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or LANDS, for MY NAME’S SAKE, shall RECEIVE a HUNDREDFOLD, and INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. 30But MANY who are FIRST will be LAST, and the LAST FIRST. …” (Matthew 19:20 – 24, 27 – 30, NKJV)

Conclusion

 

Yes, “Whatever you do” = “any act” which “benefits others” or of “holiness” can merit a reward of inheritance in His Kingdom and “not” just Church activities even if you work as a “servant” as these Verses Reveal Clearly below in Context:

 

“… 22Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23And WHATEVER YOU DO, DO IT HEARTILY, AS TO THE LORD AND NOT TO MEN, 24knowing that FROM THE LORD YOU WILL RECEIVE THE REWARD OF THE INHERITANCE; for[a] YOU SERVE THE LORD CHRIST. 25But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is NO PARTIALITY. …” (Colossians 3:22 – 25, NKJV)

 

 

I have discussed these aspects in the #MysteryoftheKingdomofHeavenBook in pages 142 – 145 or on pages 612 to 615 and even on pages 470 to 475 with more related details as well if keen in free pdf in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-zX7XgzguBYHkXWucUZ6xfMInbwtj0Z3/view?usp=sharing

 

In the #CharityDoctrineBook , I have discussed the Hebrews 6 Verses too on Pages 270 to 273 or Page 324 & Page 360 too in free pdf in link below if keen:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MiCYDzxbOc0yAZhT9Es9U7yL6XLuV0Qz/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

OSAS and NON-ELECT SALVATION Possibility with the Possible Scripture Shepherd of Hermas and Beyond

 

1) What is OSAS?

 

OSAS stands for “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrinal stance where it was Preached like the great late evangelist Mr. Billy Graham. It basically means that if you have believed in Christ (be Saved), no matter what you sin after that, you will eventually be saved where they quote Bible Verses such as “… whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life …” (John 3:16) making the claim of Salvation based on “FAITH ALONE” (Sola Fide). The extremes of OSAS clearly points that the “WORKS of SIN” does not affect the Final Salvation at all despite one may be punished in this life (or in the afterlife via “Saved by Fire”?). Based on this, they encourage anyone to just believe (or try to believe) so that they could be hope for them.  However, other Christians oppose this position mainly based on the fact that Hebrews 10 or Matthew 22 (as just discussed in last chapter) points to the rejection of MANY and FEW SAVED based on THEIR WORKS. But as we have seen on Page 122 earlier, the Context for “Few Saved” can also refer to the First Resurrection number meaning some could be Saved during the Second Resurrection which can include ‘fallen Christians’ who could be “SAVED by FIRE” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15) as per First Christianity’s Chiliasm Champion  of Faith’s quote below which refers to this TIMELINE of between the FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION (1000 years Time Period, Revelation 20:5) where some can be “SAVED after this LAKE of FIRE” destroying THEIR WORKS OF SIN (possibly a type of non-Elect Salvation), to quote these:

 

  1. i) Saved by Fire

 

“… 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.  …” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

  1. ii) The “Fire” in “Saved by Fire” referred to is the “Lake of Fire” Context

 

“… 13each ONE’S WORK will become clear; FOR THE DAY WILL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT WILL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; and THE FIRE WILL TEST EACH ONE’S WORK, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.” (1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15, NKJV)

Note: Either way, there is “loss” despite “being saved” if we end up “saved by fire” where this “Fire” refers to the “Lake of Fire” Context simply because it refers to the “FIRE which is to be REVEALED on THAT DAY (when He Returns or perhaps Judgment Day 1000 years later, no one knows which for sure) in Verses above for ‘this Salvation case’ (most likely non-Elect Salvation I think).

 

iii) First Christianity Quote for Salvation of “Saved by Fire” referring to the “Lake of Fire” Context

 

“… “OUR SAVIOUR has appointed TWO KINDS of RESURRECTION in the APOCALYPSE. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION,’ for such COME TO GRACE WITHOUT JUDGMENT. As FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT COME TO THE FIRST, but are reserved unto the SECOND RESURRECTION, THESE SHALL BE DISCIPLINED UNTIL THEIR APPOINTED TIMES, BETWEEN THE FIRST AND THE SECOND RESURRECTION.” …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD)

 

Source: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ambrose    or

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose#

 

  1. iv) Existence of OSAS Christians

 

“… 67. There are SOME, indeed, WHO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT ABANDON the NAME OF CHRIST, and WHO ARE BAPTIZED in his laver in the Church, who are NOT CUT OFF FROM IT BY SCHISM or HERESY, WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE THUS, and are STILL CATHOLICS, ARE DECEIVED, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. For the divine Scripture, when consulted, answers differently. Moreover, I have written a book about this question, entitled Faith and Works,142 in which, with God’s help, I have shown as best I could that, according to Holy Scripture, the faith that saves is the faith that the apostle Paul adequately describes when he says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but the faith which works through love.”143 But if faith works evil and not good, then without doubt, according to the apostle James “it is dead in itself.”144 He then goes on to say, “If a man says he has faith, yet has not works, can his faith be enough to save him? …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Point 67, “Faith and Works”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

 

Comments:

 

  1. OSAS Type of Doctrine

 

“… 67. There are SOME, indeed, WHO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT ABANDON the NAME OF CHRIST, and WHO ARE BAPTIZED in his laver in the Church, who are NOT CUT OFF FROM IT BY SCHISM or HERESY, WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. …”

 

  1. Please notice carefully that St. Augustine believed in the CHARITY DOCTRINE as a MUST FOR REPENTANCE and ALSO FOR JUDGMENT of SINS to be REMOVED, his quote here (which many protestants deny but CHRIST TAUGHT it clearly in LUKE 11:39 – 45 in this Context too):

 

“… WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY …”

Please notice the Relative Measure of ability to do REPENTANCE and ALMS (= Charity Doctrine) till the ‘last day’ of one’s earthly life  in St. Augustine’s phrase above proving he believed in it as he contrasts the OSAS type of Christians to DENY THESE.

 

 

 

iii. Some Type of Salvation (possibly non-Elect) is believed by such OSAS Christians even in the Context of LAKE of FIRE quoting 1 Corinthians 3:15’s Context likewise here

“… – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. …”

 

  1. Please notice carefully that even St. Augustine (as strict as he is portrayed) does NOT call these Christians (Catholic means ‘Universal Christians’) as believing in HERESY NOR SCHISM but are STILL SAVED regardless proving clearly that even if errors in Doctrine are made about these areas NO ONE IS A HERETIC

 

“… BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE THUS, and are STILL CATHOLICS, ARE DECEIVED, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. …”

  1. v) Existence of UNIVERSALIST Christians in First Christianity

 

“… “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. …” — St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.)

Source: https://www.mercyuponall.org/tag/church-fathers/

 

or

“… Yet even in his wrath–his wrath resting on them–he does not “shut up his mercy.” This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. … Now, if this wrath were all there is in man’s damnation, and even if it were present only in the slightest degree conceivable–still, to be lost out of the Kingdom of God, to be an exile from the City of God, to be estranged from the life of God, to suffer loss of the great abundance of God’s blessings which he has hidden for those who fear him and prepared for those who hope in him240 –this would be a punishment so great that, if it be eternal, no torments that we know could be compared to it, no matter how many ages they continued. …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Points 112 – 113, CHAPTER XXIX. “The Last Things”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

Note: St. Augustine of Hippo himself affirms in his own words here that we may contemplate such a possibility described above as “not Denying Holy Scripture” (and hence we are not heretics) even though he believed in Eternal Hell for the Wicked.

 

Also the “Opinion of St. Augustine” is very important indeed simply because even Blessed John Calvin (Founder of the Reformed Church Protestants) himself learnt his theology from St. Augustine’s Writings. Example quote:

 

“…  Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings  …” – Blessed John Calvin, Protestant Reformer Theologian (Creator of the Five Point Calvinism or Tulips Doctrine for Protestanism)

Source: Calvin, John. A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God. in Calvin, John (1987). Calvin’s Calvinism. Translated by Henry Cole. Grandville, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association. p. 38

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinian_Calvinism

 

  1. vi) St. Ambrose’s Quotes detailing the Lake of Fire understanding as Salvation is Possible from there? You decide, example discussion in support of it is as follows:

 

St. Ambrose defined Luke 12:49 to refer to the Final Lake of Fire/Gehenna Judgment as the Final Baptism of Fire on that Day toward the Wicked or Fallen Believers too where the sin or the work of the flesh:

 

“… I came to set the earth on fire, and what is my will, if not that finally it lights up? [Luke 12:49] I must be baptized with a baptism, and what is my torment as long as it is not accomplished! ” Higher up, He has kept us vigilant, waiting at all times for the coming of the Lord Savior, lest by slackening, by negligence, by differing from day to day his work, such, preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all, in the form of a general precept; but the theme of the following comparison seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them. But as the profit is thin, and the merit is low, when it is the fear of the punishment which prevents from going astray, since the charity and the love have a superior dignity, the Lord sharpens our zeal to deserve its favor and we are inflamed with the desire to acquire God, saying, “I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;… They have thus taught with evidentness what is the action of this fire, which enlightens the intimate of the heart. For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:49 – 50)

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrose-on-luke-12

 

 

Proof Phrase that this Refers to the Final Lake of Fire Judgment toward those Christians who are treated as Unbelievers (Luke 12:46) from the above by St. Ambrose himself: “… I came to set the earth on fire … preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all… seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them … I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;…”.

 

 

Indeed, you can clearly see that St. Ambrose reveals that some Christian leaders or bishops are punished as unbelievers (Luke 12:46) in the Lake of Fire Context (hence the current purgatory is not enough) during the future Day of Judgment in a fire which produces ‘good will’ as he even quotes 1 Corinthians 3:12 implying that 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15 may be applied to mean Salvation from the Lake of Fire, yes “even so through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15) toward such fallen-believers who are deemed equal to unbelievers who have ‘equal sentences’ (Luke 12:46) proving our Context Claim Right Again. Can you see it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless, the “wicked” are said to be in the lake of Fire only till the last penny (not forever but an Aeonian Sentence which is proportioned according to their sin) as St. Ambrose’s commentary on Verses 58 – 59 prior clearly prove as follows:

 

“… It will be the same at the end of time: the angels will come to separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. … On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

Christ Himself is the “Fire” through which they are Saved (1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15) as St. Ambrose Revealed above:

 

“… For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:49, highlighted)

 

Strangely, the Commentary for Luke 12:46 – 48 is missing in the link above. Did St. Ambrose not write it or was it lost in history?

 

Two Ways Sin is Diminished in the ‘Prison’ of the Lake of Fire

 

Bible Verses:

 

 

“… For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent. …” – Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:58 – 59, NASB)

 

 

 

 

 

 

  1. a) 1st & 2nd Way Combined (the Last Baptism of Fire which applies to All Human Being either in this life or next – Mark 9:49, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17):

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. Now it is the custom, as we remember, to give a bath to the baths: by presenting it, everyone obtains the faculty of bathing there; so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

  1. b) 1st Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

  1. c) 2nd Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above… the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

I repeat: Though I argue as though St. Ambrose must have believed like this, I am “not” Saying that this must be it but as a “possibility” only these days since no one can say for sure. So for Truth’s sake, I present the evidence for such claims accordingly from Orthodox First Christianity and not by quoting heretics.

 

 

 

vii) St. Ambrose of Milan himself could have been an Universalist

 

St. Augustine’s Teacher and Converter, St. Ambrose of Milan himself may have believed in Universalism too, Example Quotes:

 

 

“… 167. How, then, will they be brought into subjection? In the way that the Lord Himself has said. “Take My yoke upon you.” It is not the fierce that bear the yoke, but the humble and the gentle. This clearly is NON BASE SUBJECTION for MEN, but a GLORIOUS ONE: “that in the NAME of JESUS EVERY KNEE should bow, of things in heaven and things beneath; and that EVERY  TONGUE should CONFESS that JESUS IS LORD in the Glory of God the Father.” But for this reason all things were not made subject before, for they had not yet received the wisdom of God, not yet did they wear the easy yoke of the Word on the neck as it were of their mind. “But as many as received Him,” as it is written, “to them gave He power to become the sons of God.” 168. Will any one say that Christ is now made subject, because MANY have BELIEVED? Certainly NOT. For Christ’s subjection lies NOT in a FEW but in ALL. For just as I do not seem to be brought into subjection, if the flesh in me as yet lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, although I am in part subdued; so because the WHOLE CHURCH is the one body of Christ, we DIVIDE CHRIST as long as the HUMAN RACE DISAGREES. Therefore Christ is not yet made subject, for His members are not yet brought into subjection. But when we have become, not many members, but one spirit, then He also will become subject, in order that through His subjection   “God may be ALL and IN ALL.”  …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: Selected Works and Letters, Book V Prologue, Points 167 – 168,  Page 720)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

 

 

 

 

“… Let us then shortly sum up our CONCLUSION on the whole matter. A unity of power puts aside all idea of a degrading subjection. His giving up of power, and His victory as conqueror won over death, have not lessened His power. Obedience works out subjection. Christ has taken obedience upon Himself, obedience even to taking on Him our flesh, the cross even to gaining our salvation. Thus where the work lies, there too is the Author of the work. When therefore, all things have become subject to Christ, through Christ’s obedience, so that ALL bend their knees in His name, then He Himself will be ALL in ALL. For NOW, since ALL do NOT BELIEVE, ALL do NOT seem to be in SUBJECTION. But WHEN ALL have BELIEVED and DONE the will of God, then Christ will be ALL and in ALL. And when Christ is all and in all, then will God be all and in all; for the Father abides ever in the Son. How, then, is He shown to be weak, Who redeemed the weak? …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Selected Works and Letters, Page 726, Chapter 15, Point 182)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

 

“… This is that peace above all peace which shall be granted AFTER the THIRD SHAKING of the heaven, the sea, the earth and the dry land, when He shall DESTROY ALL PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS [Ephesians 6:12, Colossians 2:15, Isaiah 24:21]. For HEAVEN and EARTH shall PASS AWAY [Revelation 21:1],306 and ALL  the FASHION of this WORLD [1 Corinthians 7:31, 1 John 2:17]; … And thus there will be peace over all, the passions of the body offering no resistance, and the UNBELIEVING mind NO OBSTACLE [Romans 3:3 – 4], that CHRIST may be ALL in ALL [1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28], offering in SUBJECTION to the Father the HEARTS of ALL MEN [1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10] …”  – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, LETTER XXX, AMBROSE TO IRENAEUS, GREETING, Point 14)

 

Source:

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/ambrose_letters_03_letters21_30.htm

 

 

“… Paul makes a prayer for himself when he says: ‘That God may open the ‘door of his Word for me to announce the MYSTERY of CHRIST.‘ 15 Appropriate for the occasion was the substance of his prayer. In preaching the Gospel he was clearly chosen to be the one who opened the door of the Word, from which issued the SALVATION of the GENTILES and LIFE itself for ALL PEOPLE. … [Salvation for Which People? Context: All Men = the Whole Human Race as St. Ambrose explains just three points later as follows] … You are instructed above all to pray for the people, that is, for ALL MEN [1 Timothy 2:1], 28 for all members of your family, which is a conspicuous sign of mutual love. If you make a petition for yourself, then you pray merely for your own satisfaction. If everyone were thus to make a petition just for himself, he would become, not a petitioner, but an intercessor for favors. We conclude, therefore, that a petition for oneself is restricted to the person petitioning, whereas a PETITION for ALL MEN INCLUDES ONESELF, as you are a part of that number. Hence, great is the recompense wherein ALL MEN are accorded the benefits acquired by the prayers of each individual of the group. In this there is no question of presumption. Rather, it is much more the reflection of a humble heart, bestowing benefits more abundantly. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: fathers of the church, Gain and Abel, Points 36, 39, Chapter 9 Page 392, 395)

 

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/fathersofthechur027571mbp/fathersofthechur027571mbp_djvu.txt

 

Again, no one can say for certain if St. Ambrose of Milan was a Universalist or not but it certainly “possible” in light of all these quotes from his writings. As I said, we consider these as a “possibility” since no one knows for sure.

 

 

Comment: So John 3:16 can include such ones too, right? If not, then this Verse Speaks of a possible “non-Elect Salvation” and Let God Decide one day which is the case. Now even if the Context of Verses above Speaks of a “Fallen Christian” (Luke 12:46 – 48), his portion (final fate) is said to be EQUAL to UNBELIEVERS (Luke 12:46) meaning that these Verses could likewise all point to the NON-ELECT SALVATION of SAVED BY FIRE (1 Corinthians 3:15) making OSAS and possibly Christ Centered Universalism true likewise for “RANSOM for ALL” (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:6) may point really to “… ALL MEN to be SAVED …” eventually (1 Timothy 2:4) and hence PRAYERS and THANKSGIVINGs are made for ALL MEN in light of this Hope (1 Timothy 2:1) though some “BY [Lake of Fire] FIRE” only if these are understood in this way which is “possible” too as demonstrated via St. Ambrose of Milan’s quotes itself here.

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN;4Who will have ALL MEN to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. … 6Who gave himself a RANSOM for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME[s]. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …” (1 Timothy 2:1, 4, 6 – 7, KJV)

 

2) St. Athanasius and RANSOM for ALL Meaning

St. Athanasius seems to understand that Christ’s “Ransom for ALL” includes even to the JEWS who DID NOT BELIEVE in HIM on earth too in the context of “SALVATION for ALL” eventually (if this is what he meant below, difficult, right?)

 

“… He it is that was crucified before the sun and all creation as witnesses, and before those who put Him to death: and by His death has SALVATION  come to ALL, and ALL CREATION  been RANSOMED. He is the Life of all, and He it is that as a sheep yielded His body to death as a substitute, for the SALVATION  of ALL, even though the Jews believe it not…” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, Point 7, S:37. PSALM XXII. 16, &C. MAJESTY OF HIS BIRTH AND DEATH. CONFUSION OF ORACLES AND DEMONS IN EGYPT)

 

Source: https://www.ecatholic2000.com/fathers/untitled-820.shtml#_Toc390306303

 

  1. ii) St. Athanasius and NON-ELECT Salvation POSSIBILITY

 

This Context is strong because we know that St. Athanasius most likely believed in some type of non-Elect Salvation FROM HADES too based on his quote below (pointing to BELIEVING after SEEING POSSIBILITY as discussed in earlier Books)

 

“… And if a man has gone down even to HADES, and stands awestruck before the heroes who have descended thither, regarding them as gods, still he may see the fact of Christ’s resurrection and His victory over death, and reason from it that, of all these, He alone is very Lord and God. For the Lord touched all parts of creation, and freed and undeceived them all from every deceit. As St. Paul says, “Having put off from Himself the principalities and the powers, He triumphed on the cross,”(Col. 2. 15) so that no one could possibly be any longer deceived, but everywhere might find the very Word of God. For thus man, enclosed on every side by the works of creation and everywhere-in heaven, in HADES, in men and on the earth, beholding the unfolded Godhead of the Word, is no longer deceived concerning God, but worships Christ alone, and through Him rightly knows the Father. On these grounds, then, of reason and of principle, we will fairly silence the Gentiles in their turn. But if they think these arguments insufficient to confute them, we will go on in the next chapter to prove our point from facts. … ” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, ‘On the Incarnation’, , Ibid, Chapter 7/ Section 45)

 

Translation Source:

https://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.7.htm

 

iii) St. Athanasius’ Approval of the Shepherd of Hermas for ‘Greater Accuracy’

 

Now, since St. Athanasius also ACCEPTED the SHEPHERD of HERMAS WRITING QUOTED EARLIER in the CONTEXT of NON-ELECT SALVATION as TRUTH (even if not at the Level of Canonical Scripture) as he says to “GREATER ACCURACY in regards to the DOCTRINE of PIETY” (his own words testify as follows):

 

“… These are the springs of salvation, in order that he who is thirsty may fully refresh himself with the words contained in them. In them alone is the doctrine of piety proclaimed. Let no one add anything to them or take anything away from them… But for the sake of greater accuracy I add, being constrained to write, that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE))  Source: http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml

 

Note: Quoting the later councils and all that doesn’t matter so much because they all quote St. Athanasius for the 27 Book New Testament as even the Protestants do. I know of no earlier leader of the church to mention such number of books but may list more too or less too or not mention some too. I have discussed these same quotes and more on Page 179 onward in this Book.

A keen eye would notice that for St. Athanasius at that time even, the “Book of Esther” was “outside of the Bible” (just like the Shepherd of Hermas or others mentioned in his quote above) but today is one of the 66 books meaning these other books also could be likewise in his quote above: “…that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd.  …”

 

*Shepherd = Shepherd of Hermas (in quote above)

 

St. Athanasius clearly points that each of these listed books are “accepted” while he states as “Apocrypha”  in his usage here “NOT” referring to these books but ‘other fake books made by heretics’ (which are “not” listed here meaning what is “not” listed could be potentially from heretical sources). That quote from above:

 

“…And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” …”

 

Comments, please consider these phrases carefully:

 

1) “… the former are in the canon  …” = 27 New Testament Books (Accepted)

 

2) “… and the latter serve as reading matter, …” = “… .that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd [of Hermas]. …” (Accepted)

 

3) “… yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics …” = Books which are “not” listed above (Rejected).

 

4) Shepherd of Hermas and NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY

 

  1. i) Firstly, each is given a Relative Measure of Faith according to GRACE GIVEN

 

“… For I say, through the GRACE GIVEN to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A MEASURE OF FAITH. …” (Romans 12:3, NKJV)

Comment: The phrase “… as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A MEASURE OF FAITH. …” in the above itself proves that ‘Christianity will have differences In Doctrine where we could get some parts right others wrong or vice versa’ but yet CAN BE SAVED (room for error is there). If there is “no” rooms for Doctrinal Errors, then there wouldn’t be a “measure” of “faith” but “equal” measure of “faith” to all which is NOT what’s Written here. So, regarding ‘who is right doctrinally, let God Decide One Day and Reward accordingly’.

 

We use the “Shepherd of Hermas” Writing because in the last section prior, we already showed that St. Athanasius the Great himself proves it as “True” in the Context of “GREATER ACCURACY” in ‘his own words’. So this could be a Doctrinal “Possibility” since we are not sure 100%. Please bear in mind that this Shepherd of Hermas was considered Scripture by many Champions of Faith in early Christianity even as discussed say in Pages 61 to 63 in the free #EternalhellAnnihilationandUniversalismBook while in Pages 64 to 68 the NON-ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY is DICUSSED to INCLUDE EVEN THE UNBAPTIZED Persons (that’s why this must be a NON-ELECT SALVATION if True) as it is PLACED OUTSIDE the TOWER (which is the CHURCH). Example quotes:

 

  1. a) Shepherd of Hermas was considered Scripture by these First Christianity Greats of Faith

 

Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens

Please be careful of some Protestant attitude to simply claim some very rough language against the ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book because if on Judgment Day it turns out to be “Scripture”, condemning any Scripture could be liable to the “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” which has “no” forgiveness either in this age nor in the age to come:

“… Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:32, NKJV)

 

  1. b) Shepherd of Hermas non-Elect Salvation Quotes

 

“… “Now the other stones which you saw cast far away from the tower, and falling upon the public road and rolling from it into pathless places, are those who have indeed believed, but through doubt have abandoned the true road. Thinking, then, that they could find a better, they wander and become wretched, and enter upon pathless places. But those which fell into the fire and were burned? are those who have departed for ever from the living God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed. Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

The part in quote above which proves non-Elect salvation Outside the “Tower = Church” here: “… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS.  …”.

 

  1. c) How do we know that the Context of “Tower” here Parabolically refers to the “Tower of Repentance”? It’s Described earlier as follows ‘Tower [of Repentance]’ = ‘the Church’ = ‘the Elect Salvation’ so the Salvation described earlier must be a ‘Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER (Church) in ANOTHER PLACE MUCH MORE INFERIOR, hence NON-ELECT SALVATION’ if these are read ‘as it is Written’ here and ‘Compared’, to quote:

 

“…  “Many indeed shall hear, and hearing, some shall be glad, and some shall weep. But even these, if they hear and repent, shall also rejoice. Hear, then, the PARABLES of the TOWER; for I will reveal all to you, and give me no more trouble in regard to revelation: for these revelations have an end, for they have been completed. But you will not cease praying for revelations, for you are shameless. The TOWER which you see building is myself, THE CHURCH, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion. Ask, then, whatever you like in regard to the tower, and I will reveal it to you, that you may rejoice with the saints.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter III, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

  1. ii) Born Again Bible Verses

 

“… 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” …” (John 3:3 – 6, NKJV)

 

iii) Shepherd of Hermas Born Again Quotes

 

“… 13[90]:5 “Listen,” saith he. “The name of the Son of God is great and incomprehensible, and sustaineth the whole world. If then all creation is sustained by the Son [of God], what thinkest thou of those that are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk according to His commandments? 13[90]:6 Seest thou then what manner of men He sustaineth? Even those that bear His name with their whole heart. He Himself then is become their foundation, and He sustaineth them gladly, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.” 15[92]:1 “Declare to me, Sir,” say I, “the names of the virgins, and of the women that are clothed in the black garments.” “Hear,” saith he, “the names of the more powerful virgins, those that are stationed at the corners. 15[92]:2 The first is Faith, and the second, Continence, and the third, Power, and the fourth, Long-suffering. But the others stationed between them have these names–Simplicity, Guilelessness, Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding, Concord, Love. He that beareth these names and the name of the Son of God shall be able to enter into the kingdom of God. 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall see the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.” …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, Chapter 13 to 15, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

 

Or

 

“CHAPTER XIV … Listen,” he said: “the name of the Son of God is great, and cannot be contained, and supports the whole world. If, then, the whole creation is supported by the Son of God, what think ye of those who are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk in His commandments? do you see what kind of persons He supports? Those who bear His name with their whole heart. He Himself, accordingly, became a foundation to them, and supports them with joy, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.”  CHAPTER XV.  “Explain to me, sir,” I said, “the names of these virgins, and of those women who were clothed in black raiment.” “Hear,” he said, “the names of the stronger virgins who stood at the comers. The first is Faith, the second Continence, the third Power, the fourth Patience. And the others standing in the midst of these have the following names: Simplicity, Innocence, Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding, Harmony, Love. He who bears these names and that of the Son of God will be able to enter into the kingdom of God. Hear, also,” he continued, “the names of the women who had the black garments; and of these four are stronger than the rest. The first is Unbelief, the second: Incontinence, the third Disobedience, the fourth Deceit. And their followers are called Sorrow, Wickedness, Wantonness, Anger, Falsehood, Folly, Backbiting, Hatred. The servant of God who bears these names shall see, indeed, the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.” “And the stones, sir,” I said, “which were taken out of the pit and fitted into the building: what are they?” “The first,” he said, “the ten, viz, that were placed as a foundation, are the first generation, and the twenty-five the second generation, of righteous men; and the thirty-five are the prophets of God and His ministers; and the forty are the apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.” “Why, then, sir,” I asked, “did the virgins carry these stones also through the gate, and give them for the building of the tower?” “Because,” he answered, “these were the first who bore these spirits, and they never departed from each other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits remained with them until their falling asleep. And unless they had had these spirits with them, they would not have been of use for the building of this tower.” …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, Chapter 13 to 15, Mr. Donaldson’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

  1. iv) SEE His Kingdom – POSSIBLE MEANING

 

 

 

“… Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. …” (John 3:3, NASB)

 

“… 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall SEE the kingdom of God, …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, 15[92]:3, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

 

 

So, SEEing His Kingdom is ONLY for those being BORN AGAIN (John 3:3). The Shepherd of Hermas implies that the WICKED [FALLEN CHRISTIAN or ‘Servants of God’ who WORE THESE BLACK GARMENTS of sin] will SEE His Kingdom and hence MUST be BORN AGAIN too and be “Saved” as per the NON-ELECT Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER most likely (as per quote i) earlier) if “these Verses are compared as it is Written”.

 

Notice that the Shepherd of Hermas clearly mentions that these can SEE the KINGDOM (being BORN AGAIN) but CANNOT ENTER IT implying a SALVATION OUTSIDE the TOWER (Kingdom of God) even if SAVED.

 

This is Possible based on Verses below where being BORN AGAIN (Romans 8:20 – 21) where this aspect of the Sons of God, (His Elect – Romans 8:19) is SHARED by ALL CREATION eventually (Romans 8:22):

 

 

“… 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. …” (Romans 8:19 – 22, NKJV)

 

All Creation (Romans 8:22) —> will be BORN AGAIN (as the Greek Word in Romans 8:22 refers to ‘Birth Pangs’ Implying this, and has the Word ALL in front of ‘Creation’) —> in the Aspect of ‘liberty from Vanity or Decay, the corruption of sin’ causing ‘sin to cease to exist eventually’ as it is mentioned first in Immediate Consecutive Verses (Romans 8:20 – 21) —> where we, the ‘believers in faith’ (of ‘church’) are ‘more special’ inheriting more than just that (as the Verse earlier in Romans 8:19 describes the ‘rest of creation’ awaiting this).

 

In comparison, those who enter the Kingdom of God (Christians) must be BORN BOTH OF WATER and SPIRIT (Keep Repentance and His Commands).

 

  1. V) This NON-ELECT Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER includes even the UNBAPTIZED who SINNED LIKEWISE and so in light of the SAME PORTION with UNBELIEVERS for FALLEN CHRISTIANS, this NON-ELECT Salvation TYPE may be POSSIBLE for such too:

 

“… THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER  THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

“… 45But IF THAT SERVANT SAYS in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and WILL CUT HIM IN TWO AND APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN, FROM HIM MUCH WILL BE REQUIRED; and TO WHOM MUCH HAS BEEN COMMITTED, OF HIM THEY WILL ASK THE MORE.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:45 – 48, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

It is certainly “Possible” for such Worst Case Scenarios even and so Let God Decide One Day and I just present it as a “Possibility” only for this “Non-Elect Salvation” for both the sinning Fallen Christian and sinning unbelievers’ same portion of Judgment likewise and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept it.

 

 

Peace to you

 

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Anonymous Christian

Jonathan Ramachandran is founder at AnonymousChristian.org which serves as a Christian Blog discussing the Greater Hope of Biblical Christian in Christ Alone. He is also an IMO (International Math Coach) and a featuring Guitarist for many bands.

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