Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers

Last Updated: 24 December 2021

 

 

The free pdf may be found in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13SRCjWnSCowu2cpxuFHn1b_hjwiloitO/view?usp=sharing

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

St. Ambrose of Milan seems to be very CONFIDENT of SUCH NON ELECT SALVATION from the LAKE of FIRE CONTEXT as his quotes next seem to point, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Source: https://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib04.htm

 

 

Page 1867 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook .

Page 1908 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook

 

 

 

Source for Image next: https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jts/032_270.pdf

 

 

 

 

How can Eternal Hell, Annihilation and Universalism be right at the same time?

Isn’t that a Contradiction or a Logical Fallacy to claim so?

 

Let’s Begin with Bible Verses which may point to a more accurate understanding as follows:

 

1) A man is made up of a Body, Soul and Spirit

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself SANCTIFY you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

2) Annihilation may be true in that “Body and Soul” Cease to Exist for the Wicked

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

Note: Christ Said that Gehenna/Lake of Fire/Hell “Destroys Body and Soul” (in Matthew 10:28) but never mention the “Spirit” part where humans have all three (as per 1 Thessalonians 5:23 too).

 

3) Universalism could be true in that the “spirit” of the “Wicked” be submitted to God and change post-Spirit World-Judgment or Final Judgment?

 

“… 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the SPIRITS in PRISON, 20who FORMERLY were DISOBEDIENT, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.  …” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

 

“…   4In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking EVIL of you. 5THEY will give an account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

4) Eternal Hell can be true in that only their “body” or “corpse” (i.e. “dead bodies”) remain in the Lake of Fire with the “worms that never die” & “unquenchable fire” eternally like that as a reminder forever?

 

“… And they shall go forth, and look upon the CARCASSES OF THE MEN that have TRANSGRESSED AGAINST ME: for their WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; and they shall be an abhorring unto ALL FLESH. …” (Isaiah 66:24, KJV)

 

Note: Did you notice that Isaiah 66:24 above only mentions that the “Carcasses” (or “Dead Bodies”, i.e. Body with no spirit and no soul) is burned forever and not that the ‘spirit is burned forever’? In Christ’s quote below referring to Isaiah 66:24 above in the context of “unquenchable fire”, He seems to point to ‘saving your body parts’ namely ‘your eye if it causes you to sin’ or ‘your hands if it causes you to sin’ etc. implying that the Wicked who suffer this Gehenna (Lake of Fire) Judgment do not have a “body” anymore post-Judgment:

 

“… 42“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43If your HAND causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to ENTER INTO LIFE [j]MAIMED, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]HELL [Gehenna], into the FIRE that shall NEVER BE QUENCHED— 44[l]where ‘Their WORM DOES NOT DIE And the FIRE is NOT QUENCHED.’ 45And if your FOOT causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to ENTER LIFE LAME, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [m] HELL [Gehenna], [n]into the FIRE that SHALL NEVER BE QUENCHED— 46where ‘Their WORM DOES NOT DIE And the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.’ 47And if your EYE causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD with ONE EYE, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into [o]HELL [Gehenna] FIRE— 48where ‘Their WORM DOES NOT DIE And the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.’ 49“For EVERYONE will be SEASONED WITH FIRE, and[p] every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 9:42 – 50, NKJV)

 

 

The “smoke” of “their torment” and not “their torment” is said to last “forever and ever” toward the ‘worst & most cruel sinners of all who took the mark of the beast/antichrist’:

 

“…  9Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be TORMENTED with FIRE and BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.  And the SMOKE of THEIR TORMENT ascends FOREVER and EVER; and THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. …” (Revelation 14:11, NKJV)

 

 

Please compare with the slight different phrase used in Verses below as “their torment lasts forever and ever” where this refers to only these three individuals namely, “Satan (Devil), the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet” who will be “tormented forever and ever”:

 

“… The DEVIL, who deceived them, was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone where the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are. And THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER. …” (Revelation 20:10, NKJV)

 

Please also notice that “Satan, the Devil” is only cast into this Lake of Fire after the 1000 years Millennial Reign (as he was locked up first in the Bottomless Pit) then released for a while at the end of that for one last deception (Revelation 20:1 – 7 specifies this clearly first) while “the beast” and “the false prophet” were “cast alive” into the Lake of Fire at the ‘start of the Millennial Reign’ after Christ Returns (Revelation 19:11 – 21) 1000 years earlier:

 

“… Then THE BEAST was captured, and with him THE FALSE PROPHET who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. THESE TWO WERE CAST ALIVE into the LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone. …” (Revelation 19:20, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

Comments:

 

1. The phrase translated as “forever and ever” literally in Greek can mean “ages of Ages” where “ages” is the ‘subset’ of a larger class of “Ages” in which case the punishment part is said only to last to the smaller “ages” timeline (out of the total “Ages”) which would denote a very long but still limited (not infinite punishment) though permanent making Universalism possibly true.

 

2. Eternal Hell believers generally take these as their principle verses especially Revelation 19:20’s “cast alive” and the “forever and ever” phrases which point to ‘being alive forever and ever in torment’.

 

3. Some of those of the Annihilation position also view the phrase “forever and ever” to be “ages of Ages” as above except that they interpret the “torment lasting for ages (subset)” only and not the total Set of “Ages” to mean that these wicked have ‘ceased to exist’ by then and that’s why the ‘torment’ lasts only to the ‘subset ages’ and not the ‘total Ages’.

 

4. Other Annihilation believers take this phrase to mean “forever and ever only” and thereby point to the phrase “smoke” in “smoke of their torment” as referring to these wicked being turned to ‘ash only’ claiming that ‘smoke’ refers to only a ‘completed part in burning in analogy’ and thus means that “these have ceased to exist” but only their ‘carcass’ (dead bodies) reduced to ash remains here “in smoke”.

 

5. Among humans, only those who took the mark of the beast are said to have the ‘smoke of their torment’ to last ‘forever and ever’ (Revelation 14:11). Different levels of sin may merit different levels of Judgment (Luke 12:46 – 48) and so the Verse below describing the Lake of Fire for the rest who deserve it does “not” use the phrase “forever” nor the phrase “forever and ever” but only the phrase “their part” in the “Lake of Fire” (and no other Verse exists on this) hinting possibly that ‘their sentence could be shorter in length’ as the phrase ‘their part’ seem to refer to a ‘limited duration’:

 

“… But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars SHALL HAVE THEIR PART in the LAKE which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the SECOND DEATH.” …” (Revelation 21:8, NKJV)

 

Note: First death refers to the soul separated from body. So, the Second Death refers to both the “body and soul” are destroyed but the ‘spirit may still be saved’.

This Verse below refers to a ‘fallen believer’ as he is said to be made equal to ‘unbelievers’:

 

“…  46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, SHALL BE BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, SHALL BE BEATEN WITH FEW. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:46 – 48, NKJV)

 

Note: The Verses above Describe the ‘Final Judgment’ and not Purgatory-concept because it refers to a “day” when the “Master Returns” (possibly His Second Coming or Judgment Day after the Millennial Reign). Also, the phrases “SHALL BE BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES” and “SHALL BE BEATEN WITH FEW” seems to indicate limitedness of this ‘Final Judgment’ for some humans (if not all according to the relative measure of how much they knew God’s Will) rather than two ‘forever sentences here where one is lesser in beating than another’. The words “few” and “many” used here indicate countability hence most likely “limited/finite” for if “infinite/unlimited beating” would be pointed too, equivalent phrases in Greek that can mean say “unending beating” should have been used instead.

 

Summary – Combining each of the possibilities above, it may be also “possible” to understand these Verses collectively as follows:  ‘Satan, the beast and false prophet’ are ‘tormented alive forever and ever’ (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). Among human beings, only the ones who took the mark of the beast may either be ‘tormented for ever and ever’ or ‘their dead bodies/carcass could be indicated by that smoke’ (Isaiah 66:24) which burns forever (Revelation 14:11) where other sinners could have a shorter/longer limited sentence (Luke 12:46 – 48) in “their part” in the Lake of Fire as the phrase forever and ever or for ever is not used on them in this Book (Revelation 21:8). However, Matthew 25:46 mentions “everlasting punishment” toward those who are cast into the Lake of Fire who are “resurrected for judgment” first (John 5:28 – 29) which means they have a “body, soul and spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:23) before being cast into the Lake of Fire. Next,  we may see that this Lake of Fire or “Gehenna” Destroys both their “body and soul” part eventually (Matthew 10:28) and their “carcass/dead bodies” only “burn forever” (Isaiah 66:24) but “their spirit may be saved” eventually (1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:4 – 6). We can thus understand Christ’s Exhortation to escape “Gehenna” (Lake of Fire) in the Context of trying to ‘save literal body parts, hands, legs, eyes’ indicating “saving body + soul” from being destroyed (in Mark 9:42 – 50, Matthew 10:28) without which ‘a spirit’ can exist being saved (Luke 24:39) but cannot ‘see nor enter the Kingdom of God’ not being born again (John 3:3 – 5, 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 1:23, Titus 3:5) in the resurrection to have “a body + soul” to live on the New Earth or New Heavens (Revelation 21:24 – 27). The eternal punishment of the wicked may thus be that they cannot see nor enter the New Earth nor New Heavens forever as they are spirit just like those in the ‘spirit world now’ cannot see/nor experience earth/heaven.

Which are the Apostolic Fathers Writings of the Church?

 

Firstly, the main reason why we consider these ‘Apostolic Fathers’ Writings of the Church is because “no” Prophecy of Scripture is of “any private interpretation” and so no matter how good our explanation sounds, if it is not echoed in First Christianity Writings, most likely it is “not” true.

 

“… knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV)

 

The explanations of ‘other Church Fathers’ or Christians throughout the centuries (even if millions of them) does “not” prove any explanation true either simply because they are just repeating what each other has said. In other words, if the Apostolic Fathers can be quoted to say something different or slightly different with more accuracy, then the rest could have erred for to err is human and since Christ Spoke in Parables, the chances of the First Christians getting it right is highest and top of this list are the ‘Apostolic Fathers’ (as modern scholarship calls them thus) who were closest to the Apostles themselves (and their time) and hence may present the most accurate theological position likewise:

 

“… that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in PARABLES; I will UTTER THINGS KEPT SECRET from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 13:35, NKJV)

 

“… 2I will open my mouth in a PARABLE; I will utter [b]DARK SAYINGS of OLD, …” (Psalms 78:2, NKJV)

 

I do quote the Book of 1Enoch’s Book of Parables to understand the ‘spirit may be saved’ possibility because it may agree to the Apostolic Fathers Writings likewise as we shall discuss soon.

 

Also, the “Book of Parables” section from this Book of 1Enoch which some Christians from First Christianity till today may consider as “Scripture” is also dated around this ‘Apostolic Fathers’ Timeline’ from 300 BC to 100 AD generally though not listed as an Apostolic Father writing and hence I quote it for these reasons.

 

 

Book of Parables part of Book of 1Enoch dating/timeline Quote:

“…  Chapters 37–71 of the Book of Enoch are referred to as the Book of Parables. The scholarly debate centers on these chapters. The Book of Parables appears to be based on the Book of Watchers, but presents a later development of the idea of final judgement and of eschatology, concerned not only with the destiny of the fallen angels but also that of the evil kings of the earth. The Book of Parables uses the expression Son of Man for the eschatological protagonist, who is also called “Righteous One”, “Chosen One”, and “Messiah”, and sits on the throne of glory in the final judgment.[79]

The first known use of The Son of Man as a definite title in Jewish writings is in 1 Enoch, and its use may have played a role in the early Christian understanding and use of the title.[1][2][80] It has been suggested that the Book of Parables, in its entirety, is a later addition. Pointing to similarities with the Sibylline Oracles and other earlier works, in 1976, J.T. Milik dated the Book of Parables to the third century. He believed that the events in the parables were linked to historic events dating from 260 to 270 CE.[81] This theory is in line with the beliefs of many scholars of the 19th century, including Lucke (1832), Hofman (1852), Wiesse (1856), and Phillippe (1868).

According to this theory, these chapters were written in later Christian times by a Jewish Christian to enhance Christian beliefs with Enoch’s authoritative name.[1][2] In a 1979 article, Michael Knibb followed Milik’s reasoning and suggested that because no fragments of chapters 37–71 were found at Qumran, a later date was likely. Knibb would continue this line of reasoning in later works.[82][83]: 417

In addition to being missing from Qumran, Chapters 37–71 are also missing from the Greek translation.[83]: 417  Currently no firm consensus has been reached among scholars as to the date of the writing of the Book of Parables. Milik’s date of as late as 270 CE, however, has been rejected by most scholars. David W. Suter suggests that there is a tendency to date the Book of Parables to between 50 BC and 117 AD.[83]: 415–416 . In 1893, Robert Charles judged Chapter 71 to be a later addition. He would later change his opinion[84]: 1  and give an early date for the work between 94 and 64 BC . …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch#Book_of_Parables

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, which Writings from First Christianity are called ‘Apostolic Fathers? To quote:

 

“… The following writings are generally grouped together as having been written by the Apostolic Fathers:[4]

1. The Epistle to Diognetus[note 1]
2. Letters attributed to Clement of Rome
3. The First Epistle of Clement
4. The Second Epistle of Clement (not actually written by Clement; see § Clement of Rome)
5. The Didache
6. The Epistle of Barnabas
7. Seven epistles of Ignatius of Antioch (the longer forms of these Epistles, and those beyond the seven, are widely considered later emendations and forgeries)
8. The Martyrdom of Ignatius
9. The Epistle of Polycarp
10. The Martyrdom of Polycarp
11. The Shepherd of Hermas
12. Fragments of the writings of Papias of Hierapolis, which have survived as quotations in later writers
13. One short fragment of the Apology of Quadratus of Athens

All or most of these works were originally written in Greek. Older English translations of these works can be found online in the Ante-Nicene Fathers series on the Christian Classics Ethereal Library website.[5] Published English translations have also been made by various scholars of early Christianity, such as Joseph Lightfoot, Kirsopp Lake, Bart D. Ehrman and Michael W. Holmes.[note 2] The first English translation of the Apostolic Fathers’ works was published in 1693, by William Wake (1657–1737), then rector of Westminster St James, later (1716) Archbishop of Canterbury.[note 3] It was virtually the only English translation available until the mid-19th century. Since its publication many better manuscripts of the Apostolic Fathers’ works have been discovered. …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers

Next, we will quote only the ‘Apostolic Fathers’ Writings above for the part (if it exists) regarding what words they used to describe the ‘eternal punishment concept’. Among these, did you notice that only four direct disciples of the Apostles writings are known to exist (i.e. St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Papias of Hierapolis and St. Clement of Rome)? Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers

Apostolic Fathers Writings – A look at Epistle to Diognetus or Mathethes Quote on Eternal Punishment

 

1) History of this Mysterious Writing and its discovery

 

“… The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus[1] (Greek: Πρὸς Διόγνητον Ἐπιστολή) is an example of Christian apologetics, writings defending Christianity against the charges of its critics. The Greek writer and recipient are not otherwise known. Estimates of dating based on the language and other textual evidence have ranged from AD 130[2] (which would make it one of the earliest examples of apologetic literature), to the late 2nd century, with the latter often preferred in modern scholarship.[3] … The text itself does not identify the author. The word “mathetes” is the Greek word for “student” or “disciple,” and it appears only once in the text, when the author calls himself a “student of the Apostles” (ἀποστόλων γενομένος μαθητής). Hence it is not a proper name at all, and its use in the title is strictly conventional. The writer, whoever he or she was, sounds to many like a Johannine Christian, inasmuch as he uses the word “Logos” as a substitute for “Christ” or “Jesus.”[4] Nothing is known either about its recipient, Diognetus. It is likely that he was the tutor of the same name to the emperor Marcus Aurelius.[5][6] It is entirely possible, without verification of the author, that we have a fictitious character, since the name “Diognetus,” means “God-born” in Greek.[7] … The epistle survived only in one manuscript. It was initially discovered in a 13th-century codex that included writings ascribed to Justin Martyr.[8] The 13th-century manuscript was mostly intact, exhibiting damage only in one place, several lines in the middle of the text. It was first published in 1592, and attributed to Justin Martyr because of the context of its discovery. Unfortunately the original was subsequently destroyed in a fire during the Franco-Prussian War in 1870,[8] but numerous transcriptions of the letter survive today. Oddly, there is no evidence that any Apostolic Father or Church Father knew of its existence, even though it has been esteemed by many modern readers as a gem of early Christian apologetics. It has been suggested that the Epistle should be identified with the Apology of Quadratus of Athens, mentioned by Eusebius in his Church History,[9] but this is disputed among scholars ( …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Diognetus

 

 

 

 

 

2) Hell Quote

 

“… 10:7 Then, though thou art placed on earth, thou

shalt behold that God liveth in heaven; then shalt

thou begin to declare the mysteries of God; then shalt

thou both love and admire those that are punished

because they will not deny God; then shalt thou

condemn the deceit and error of the world; when thou

shalt perceive the true life which is in heaven, when

thou shalt despise the apparent death which is here on

earth, when thou shalt fear the real death, which is

reserved for those that shall be condemned to the

ETERNAL FIRE that shall PUNISH those delivered over to

it UNTO THE END. …”

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html

 

Eternal Hell View quoting it (Example Roman Catholic Source for it):

” … When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the EVERLASTING FIRE,  THE FIRE which will PUNISH EVEN TO THE END those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world … ” (Letterto Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Source: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/Hell.htm

 

Note: this is the only quote on this Writing which describes the eternal punishment. Let’s discuss this in detail next.

 

 

3) Discussion

 

1. i) The phrase “… those who will be condemned to the EVERLASTING FIRE, THE FIRE which will PUNISH EVEN TO THE END those who are delivered to it …” is argued by ‘Eternal Conscious torment believers to mean that ‘since the soul of the wicked is immortal’ and ‘the fire everlasting’, thus the soul which is punished must be consciously punished eternally. There are at least two problems here namely:

 

– Is the soul of the wicked immortal?

– the phrase “even to the end” has no meaning of ‘any end’ in ‘any way’ being ‘skipped’

 

Eternal “Conscious” Torment believers’ argument example:

 

“… In chapter 6, The Apologist uses an analogy of Christians being to the world what the soul is to the body. It’s a powerful illustration, and bears some resemblance to Jesus’ words about the Church being the salt of the earth. However, in 6.8, he uses an example in this analogy that may not seem important to our discussion, but it actually pretty crucial:

 

“The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens.”

— The Epistle of Diognetus 6.8

 

This is the first time in this study we have seen an Apostolic Father reference the soul being immortal. A common argument from Conditionalists is that the theology of souls being immortal is not biblical, and wasn’t taught in Christian theology until the late 2nd century. (Fudge, 2011, Pg. 20) This was done by apologists such as Tertullian as a way to relate their theology to their pagan opponents. Platonic thought specifically was heavily filtered into Christian apologetics, which included the belief that souls live forever. If souls live forever, then hell must be an eternal torment for those in it. …”

 

Source: https://www.tismercyall.com/blog/w8pqam9ywwxfowj3yr423yua4yfctw

 

 

 

My comments:

 

– The Soul of the Wicked is “not” Immortal

 

Yes, in this ‘same Epistle to Diognetus’, many Eternal ‘Conscious’ Torment scholars may have ‘missed’ this part implying that the ‘soul of the wicked is not immortal’ in Chapter 2 as follows:

 

“…2:4 Could not these things which are now worshipped by you, by human hands again be made vessels like the rest? Are NOT THEY ALL DEAF and BLIND, are THEY NOT SOUL-LESS , senseless, motionless? Do THEY NOT ALL ROT and DECAY? 2:5 These things ye call gods, to these ye are slaves, these ye worship; AND YE END BY BECOMING ALTOGETHER LIKE UNTO THEM. 2:6 Therefore ye hate the Christians, because they do not consider these to be gods. …” – Epistle to Diognetus (Chapter 2, Verses 4 to 6)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html

 

Comment: The phrase “…AND YE END BY BECOMING ALTOGETHER LIKE UNTO THEM …” referring to those wicked who worship idols in the context of “… are THEY NOT SOUL-LESS …” means that these WICKED also WILL HAVE NO SOUL in the end and the phrase “… Are NOT THEY ALL DEAF and BLIND, are THEY NOT SOUL-LESS , senseless, motionless? …” means that without the “BODY and SOUL” destroyed in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28) this part of them is gone forever and they are just ‘spirits’ and so cannot feel these sensations anymore eternally where with only these sensations one can SEE, HEAR and FEEL the New Earth and New Heavens just like even now those in the spirit world cannot feel what we feel with a body on the earth (in analogy). So the author’s claim of ‘immortal soul’ seems out of context as in Chapter 6 the Epistle of Diognetus  is only speaking of the Context of “Christian Souls” only where in Chapter 2 here he clearly warns that those who worship idols or equivalent in the end become SOUL-LESS, i.e. have “no” Souls anymore eventually which may agree more accurately to the “…  those who will be condemned to the EVERLASTING FIRE,  THE FIRE which will PUNISH EVEN TO THE END those who are delivered to it …” (Diogenetus 10:7) part earlier where  the  phrase “… will PUNISH EVEN TO THE END …” may imply the END to refer to the ‘complete destruction or ceasing to exist of the SOUL and possibly BODY too eventually’ as the phrase here  “… Do THEY NOT ALL ROT and DECAY?  …” also support these as Matthew 10:28 and Isaiah 66:24 agrees more to this Context likewise. Is God Unfair? No because:

‘… We become like the God We Worship …’

 

– Immortal Soul only refers to Christians

 

So, the author of the blog may have misunderstood the context of the ‘Immortal Soul’ (Diognetus 6:8) as referring only to Christians because it is the Gift of Immortality by God to them only as this Epistle of Diognetus actually ONLY DISCUSSES the CHRISTIAN SOUL (not unbeliever souls) in this aspect as follows in Chapter 6 (quoted next below ‘in full’).  He also may have ‘missed’ a key fact that in this ‘same Epistle of Diognetus’ viewed that “the WICKED’S SOUL” ends up “DESTROYED” into “NON-EXISTENCE” as implied by the phrases here  “… Are NOT THEY ALL DEAF and BLIND, are THEY NOT SOUL-LESS , senseless, motionless? Do THEY NOT ALL ROT and DECAY? …” (Diognetus 2:4) applies to the Wicked as ‘their end is the same’ implied by the phrase “…  , these ye worship; AND YE END BY BECOMING ALTOGETHER LIKE UNTO THEM. …” (Diognetus 2:5) which can refer to the “Destruction of the Body and Soul likewise” (in Matthew 10: 28) into being “soul-less eventually” (i.e. have no soul) and ‘they rot and decay into non-existence’ for the “body” part as the ‘carcass’ part of Isaiah 66:24 can imply:

“… CHAPTER 6
6:1 In a word, what the soul is in a body, this the
Christians are in the world. 6:2 The soul is spread through all the members of
the body, and Christians through the divers cities of
the world.6:3 The soul hath its abode in the body, and yet it
is not of the body. So Christians have their abode in
the world, and yet they are not of the world.  6:4 The soul which is invisible is guarded in the body which is visible: so Christians are recognised as being in the world, and yet their religion remaineth invisible. 6:5 The flesh hateth the soul and wageth war with
it, though it receiveth no wrong, because it is forbidden to indulge in pleasures; so the world hateth Christians, though it receiveth no wrong from them, because they set themselves against its pleasures. 6:6 The soul loveth the flesh which hateth it, and
the members: so Christians love those that hate them.
6:7 The soul is enclosed in the body, and yet itself holdeth the body together; so Christians are kept in the world as in a prison-house, and yet they themselves hold the world together.
6:8 The soul though itself immortal dwelleth in a
mortal tabernacle; so Christians sojourn amidst
perishable things, while they look for the
imperishability which is in the heavens.
6:9 The soul when hardly treated in the matter of
meats and drinks is improved; and so Christians when
punished increase more and more daily.
6:10 So great is the office for which God hath
appointed them, and which it is not lawful for them to
decline. …” – Epistle of Diognetus (Chapter 6)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html

4) Charity Doctrine in this Epistle of Diognetus for Eternal Life

The problem with whether Eternal “Conscious” Torment believers or Annihilation believers or Universalism believers is that when they quote this Apostolic Father Writing of ‘Epistle of Diognetus’, they like to quote that ‘punishment part earlier’ but completely ignore or don’t teach as doctrine this ‘Charity Doctrine part’ which is Described to ‘escape such a punishment or to find mercy’. So we aim to quote this part also as the earlier quotes can only be as true as this quote next as they’re found in this ‘same writing’ by this ‘same authour’ and so we either accept both or deny both instead of cherry picking.

The Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Quote part:

 

“… 10:1 This faith if thou also desirest, apprehend first full knowledge of the Father. …10:5 For happiness consisteth not in lordship over one’s neighbours, nor in desiring to have more than weaker men, nor in possessing wealth and using force to inferiors; neither can any one imitate God in these matters; nay, these lie outside His greatness. 10:6 But whosoever taketh upon himself the burden of his neighbour, whosoever desireth to benefit one that is worse off in that in which he himself is superior, whosoever by supplying to those that are in want possessions which he received from God becomes a God to those who receive them from him, he is an imitator of God….” – Epistle of Diognetus (Chapter 10, Verses 5 – 6)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html

 

In another translation:

“…. And if you love Him, you will be an imitator of His kindness. And do not wonder that a man may become an imitator of God. He can, if he is willing. For it is not by ruling over his neighbours, or by seeking to hold the supremacy over those that are weaker, or by being rich, and showing violence towards those that are inferior, that happiness is found; nor can any one by these things become an imitator of God. But these things do not at all constitute His majesty. On the contrary he who takes upon himself the burden of his neighbour; he who, in whatsoever respect he may be superior, is ready to benefit another who is deficient; he who, whatsoever things he has received from God, by distributing these to the needy, becomes a god to those who receive [his benefits]: he is an imitator of God.  …” – Epistle of Diognetus (Chapter 10, Verses1,  5 – 6)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-roberts.html

 

 

Apostolic Fathers Writings – Clement of Rome Quotes on Eternal Punishment

 

1) History

 

There are two letters which are attributed to St. Clement of Rome, called 1 Clement and 2 Clement respectively. All scholars usually agree that 1 Clement is definitely his letter but some question whether 2 Clement is his or not. I am not going into that discussion as you may read about it in links below:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Clement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Clement

 

 

2) Hell Quote

 

The 1 Clement does “not” have any Eternal Hell quotes at all (strangely). I mean there “no” Hell/Gehenna even mentioned in 1 Clement and not even the word “eternal/everlasting” with the word “punishment” but only this phrase below which mentions “punishments and torture” for those who depart from the Lord:

“… On account of his HOSPITALITY and GODLINESS, LOT WAS SAVED out of Sodom when all the country around him was punished by means of FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those who hope in Him, but gives up THOSE WHO DEPART FROM HIM TO PUNISHMENT AND TORTURE. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement Chapter 11)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

Comment: The “Hospitality” part is the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ while “Godliness” is ‘being holy’ and the Context of that is it helps to be delivered from “… FIRE AND BRIMSTONE …” which is exactly how the Lake of Fire itself is Described (can you see the analogy he draws here?) as he continues next that only those missing this are considered as “… but gives up THOSE WHO DEPART FROM HIM TO PUNISHMENT AND TORTURE. …”. So this gives hope that the “Lake of Fire and Brimstone” judgment might likewise be skipped for those who practice “Hospitality” (Charity Doctrine) + “Godliness” (Holiness).

 

Even the Catholic Sources only Quote the “Eternal Hell” part from “2 Clement”, example:

 

“… St. Clement of Rome (80/95 AD or pseudo-Clement, 2nd century AD)

 

[translated from the Ante-Nicene Christian Library, by Roberts/Donaldson]

 

Wherefore, brethren, leaving [willingly] our sojourn in this present world, let us do the will of Him that called us, and not fear to depart out of this world. For the Lord saith, ‘Ye shall be as lambs in the midst of wolves.’ [Matt 10:16] And Peter answered and said unto Him, [an agraphon, or oral saying] ‘What, then, if the wolves shall tear in pieces the lambs?’ Jesus said unto Peter, ‘The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear [or, “Let not the lambs fear”] the wolves; and in like manner, fear not ye them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hellfire.’ [Matt 10:28; Luke 12:4-5] And consider [or “know”] brethren, that the sojourning in the flesh in this world is but brief and transient, but the promise of Christ is great and wonderful, even the rest of the kingdom to come, and of life everlasting [text and translation are here doubtful]. By what course of conduct, then, shall we attain these things, but by leading a holy and righteous life, and by deeming these worldly things as not belonging to us, and not fixing our desires upon them? For if we desire to possess them, we fall away from the path of righteousness. (Second Clement, 5)

 

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (Second Clement, 17) [another translation:]

 

It is of the great day of judgment he speaks, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ. The righteous, having succeeded in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, ‘There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.’ (Second Clement, 17; from Akin, The Fathers Know Best, page 393) …”

Source: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/EternalHell.htm#ClementRome

 

 

3) Discussion

 

1. i) 1 Clement

 

Since the “1 Clement part” is discussed earlier, we note that it does “not” contradict our “possibility” claim that those punished in the Lake of Fire may have their body + soul destroyed eventually in the Lake of Fire but live to God in spirit-state later and also that some may stand a chance to be shown Mercy according to the level of “HOSPITALITY” (Charity Doctrine Lifestyle) and “GODLINESS” (Holiness) one practiced in life prior as (1 Clement Chapter 11) earlier shows.

 

1. ii) 2 Clement

 

Regarding “2 Clement”, the only phrases used which are “punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable” and “but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hellfire” when combined, seems to support our position earlier that these punishments last as long as only when both the “body and soul” eventually get destroyed in “Hellfire [Original Greek:Gehenna]” as per Matthew 10:28 earlier.

 

This again does “not” contradict our “possibility” that the spirit may be saved thereafter. In regards to annihilation vs eternal hell, annihilation seems more matching as “no” description of any eternal ‘conscious’ torment is found here but rather is pointing to a temporal conscious torment simply because a torment can only be ‘felt’ with a ‘body and soul’ and thus ‘it lasts only as long as the body and soul exists’ where if eventually ‘body and soul’ are ‘destroyed’ (cease to exist as per Matthew 10:28), they don’t feel this pain anymore are may be ‘saved in the spirit’ thereafter.

 

So the eternal part refers to “eternal death” of both “body and soul” and the annihilationist  position is assuming something further which is the “spirit” of that person who is punished also ‘ceases to exist’ but this is not found in 2 Clement nor in 1 Clement or in fact in any Bible Verse even (speaking of ‘spirit’ being destroyed in Gehenna/Hell Fire or equivalent) but the opposite exists as we have shown in the first chapter that the ‘spirit may be saved’ (e.g. 1 Peter 4:4 – 6, 1 Corinthians 5:5). Even Isaiah 66:24 agrees in only the “carcass” (lifeless dead bodies of limbs, body parts) remain burning there with “no mention of any ‘conscious’ torment viewed by that time. Please remember that I am “not” saying that my interpretation must be correct but discussing the “possibility” only and let God Reveal its meaning One Day and I accept it either way.

4) Charity Doctrine in this 1 Clement and 2 Clement

 

As before, if these ‘Eternal Hell’ Quotes above are true, then these ‘Charity Doctrine Quotes’ next are ‘Equally True’ or ‘both are untrue’ as these are ‘Written’ in this ‘Same Letter’:

 

1. i) Charity Doctrine is a must fruit for True Repentance

 

St. Clement of Rome himself quotes the Context of Isaiah 1:18 (the Christian’s favourite Verse of “… though your sins are like crimson, they will be white as snow …”, Sanctification Doctrine) to be linked to the Direct Condition of “… Ceasing to do evil … Learning to do Good… Taking Care of Orphans and Widows …” as God Inspired Prophet Isaiah too regarding this True Doctrine of Repentance with Sanctification in his quote below”:

 

“… if you TURN to Me with YOUR WHOLE HEART, and say, Father! I will listen to you, as to a holy people.” And in another place He says: “WASH, and BECOME CLEAN; put away the wickedness of your souls from before my eyes; CEASE FROM YOUR EVIL WAYS, and LEARN TO DO WELL; seek out judgment, deliver the oppressed, JUDGE THE FATHERLESS, and SEE THAT JUSTICE IS DONE TO THE WIDOW; and come, and let us reason together. He declares, “THOUGH YOUR SINS BE LIKE CRIMSON, I WILL MAKE THEM WHITE AS SNOW; THOUGH THEY BE LIKE SCARLET, I WILL WHITEN THEM LIKE WOOL. And IF YOU ARE WILLING AND OBEY ME, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse, and will not listen to Me, the sword shall devour you, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken these things.” [Isaiah 1:16 – 20] Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be PARTAKERS OF REPENTANCE, He has, by His ALMIGHTY WILL, ESTABLISHED [THESE DECLARATIONS]. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement Chapter 8)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. ii) Charity Doctrine “Insatiable Desire to do Good” (above the ‘normal level intention to do Good Works’) is the ‘Sign of the Full Outpouring Most Blessed Holy Spirit of God’

 

“… Moreover, you were all distinguished by humility, and were in no respect puffed up with pride, but yielded obedience rather than extorted it, and were more willing to give than to receive? Content with the provision which God had made for you, and carefully attending to His words, you were inwardly filled with His doctrine, and His sufferings were before your eyes. Thus a profound and abundant peace was given to you all, and you had an INSATIABLE DESIRE FOR DOING GOOD, while a FULL OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT was upon you all. Full of holy designs, and with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, you stretched forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful to you, if you had been guilty of any involuntary transgression. Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience. You were sincere and uncorrupted, and forgetful of injuries between one another. Every kind of faction and schism was abominable in your sight. You mourned over the transgressions of your neighhours: their deficiencies you deemed your own. You NEVER GRUDGED ANY ACT OF KINDNESS, being “READY TO EVERY GOOD WORK.” Adorned by a THOROUGHLY VIRTUOUS AND RELIGIOUS LIFE, you did all things in the fear of God. The COMMANDMENTS AND ORDINANCES OF THE LORD were written upon the tablets of your hearts. …”  – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 2)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

iii) Charity Doctrine’s Love in Action’ can cover the “Judgment of Sins” (which is equivalent to The ‘Alms Deliver from Death’ concept as will be discussed in Appendix III)

“… BLESSED ARE WE, beloved, IF WE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD IN THE HARMONY OF LOVE; that SO THROUGH LOVE OUR SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN US. For it is written, “BLESSED are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. BLESSED is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile.” THIS BLESSEDNESS comes upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 50)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

Note the importance of the “Charity Doctrine” in regards to “Love in Action” for cancelling out the ‘Judgment of Sins’ in that we may be forgiven as Blessed St. Clement of Rome himself writes “… that SO THROUGH LOVE OUR SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN US. …”  (the meaning of 1 Peter 4:8 and Luke 7:47 too)

1. iv) Charity Doctrine’s Good Works of “Hospitality” and “Holiness” can help one to be Saved from the final “Lake of Fire and Brimstone” Judgment

 

Background: Blessed Righteous Lot did “not” fit it with the People of Sodom who did “not” care about the poor and were busy in seeking and enjoying prosperity and other sins.

 

“… On account of his HOSPITALITY AND GODLINESS, LOT WAS SAVED out of Sodom when all the country around him was punished by means of FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those who hope in Him, but gives up THOSE WHO DEPART FROM HIM TO PUNISHMENT AND TORTURE. For Lot’s wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt to this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves, and become a sign to all succeeding generations. …” ” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 11)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

“… Look, this was the iniquity of your sister SODOM: She and her daughter had PRIDE, FULLNESS OF FOOD, and ABUNDANCE OF IDLENESS; NEITHER did she strengthen the hand of the POOR and NEEDY. …” (Ezekiel 16:49, NKJV)

Righteous Lot was different especially since he practiced both “Hospitality and Godliness” which are the opposite of the “sins of Sodom” revealed in Ezekiel 16:49 above. The word “Sodom” and the context of “Hospitality” ties the quote up with this Verse.

“… 32Remember Lot’s wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 17:32 – 33, NKJV)

The Context of “…  32Remember Lot’s wife.   …” in Christ’s Exhortation itself points that the Context of “… seeks to save his life will lose it, …” refers to ‘Prosperity Gospel’ type of desires as ‘Lot’s Wife was “not” accused by Scripture to be doing any sin except that she loved a luxurious life and thus ‘turned back’ and looked at Sodom turning to a pillar of salt. Please also notice carefully that though Lot practiced Hospitality with family income, the wife was “not” considered to be part of it as her heart still loved ‘Prosperity’ and was unsaved which is only Revealed on the Day it Rains Fire and Brimstone as none can fake their urge within anymore as ‘they will turn likewise’. You cannot say you don’t love ‘prosperity’ or equivalent but want it all the time (self contradiction & self deception).

1. v) Prosperity Gospel is the Opposite to the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle

 

Prosperity Gospel can lead straight to Hell as it teaches that God wants us to have a good earthly life with worldly things here but that exactly the opposite of what St. Clement of Rome warned as the Context of Matthew 10:28’s “Destroy Body + Soul in Gehenna” too as the Context deserved toward those ‘who love these things of this world pursuing it’ and ‘those who don’t share their worldly things by claiming it as their own only’ (the opposite of the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle) in his quote below:

 

“… Jesus said unto Peter, “The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear the wolves; and in like manner, fear not ye them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over BOTH SOUL AND BODY to cast them into HELL-FIRE [Matthew 10:28].” And consider, brethren, that the sojourning in the flesh in this world is but brief and transient, but the promise of Christ is great and wonderful, even the rest of the kingdom to come, and of life everlasting. By what course of conduct, then, shall we attain these things, but by leading a holy and righteous life, and by deeming these WORLDLY THINGS AS NOT BELONGING TO US, and NOT FIXING OUR DESIRES UPON THEM? For IF WE DESIRE TO POSSESS THEM, WE FALL AWAY FROM THE PATH OF RIGHTEOUSNESS …” (2 Clement, Attributed to Blessed St. Clement of Rome, a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter, c.35 AD – c. 99 AD)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-roberts.html

Comment: Please read the last line again where even the ‘Prosperity Desire’ without obtaining it even can make one fall away from the path of righteousness (which means leading straight to ‘eternal hell’, right?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. vi) Charity Doctrine is the Holiest Act a Human can do to Obey God and is Greater than Fasting and Prayer too (as it is discussed further in Appendix III in ‘Alms Deliver from Death’)

 

“… 2Clem 16:1 Therefore, brethren, since we have found no small opportunity for repentance, seeing that we have time, let us turn again unto God that called us, while we have still One that receiveth us.2Clem 16:2 For if we bid farewell to these enjoyments and conquer our soul in refusing to fulfill its evil lusts, we shall be partakers of the mercy of Jesus. 2Clem 16:3 But ye know that the DAY OF JUDGMENT cometh even now as a BURNING OVEN, and the powers of the heavens shall melt, and all the earth as lead melting on the fire, and then shall appear the secret and open works of men. 2Clem 16:4 ALMSGIVING therefore is a good thing, EVEN AS REPENTANCE FROM SIN> FASTING IS BETTER THAN PRAYER, but ALMSGIVING BETTER THAN BOTH. And LOVE COVERETH A MULTITUDE OF SINS [1 Peter 4:8], but PRAYER out of a good conscience DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. BLESSED IS EVERY MAN that is FOUND FULL OF THESE. For ALMSGIVING LIFTETH OFF THE BURDEN OF SIN. 2Clem 17:1 Let us therefore repent with our whole heart, lest any of us perish by the way. For if we have received commands, that we should make this our business, to tear men away from idols and to instruct them, how much more is it wrong that a soul which knoweth God already should perish! …” (2 Clement, Attributed to Blessed St. Clement of Rome, a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter, c.35 AD – c. 99 AD)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-lightfoot.html

Comments:

1. ‘ALMSGIVING BETTER THAN BOTH [Prayer and Fasting]’ [2 Clement 16:4] in the Context of DAY OF JUDGMENT cometh even now as a BURNING OVEN [2 Clement 16:3]; (yes, please notice these words carefully in the quote above)

 

1. 1 Peter 4:8’s “LOVE COVERETH A MULTITUDE OF SINS [2 Clement 16:4],” is quoted to refer to this ‘Almsgiving Context’ with which ‘but PRAYER out of a good conscience DELIVERETH FROM DEATH [2 Clement 16:4]’ which strangely may open up the “Possible” Salvation of some ‘non-Christians’ who might be Practicing it as per “Cornelius” example shows below, right? (as St. Clement himself was a disciple of Blessed Apostle St. Peter and so may have known these deep insights to share likewise):

 

“… 34Then PETER opened his mouth and said: “In TRUTH I perceive that GOD shows no partiality. 35But in EVERY NATION WHOEVER FEARS HIM and WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS is ACCEPTED BY HIM. …” (Acts 10:34 – 35, NKJV)

 

Note: The usage of “God” here is in general as Apostle St. Peter is speaking of ‘people who have never heard of the Gospel nor of Christ too’ (Context here in reply to Cornelius).

iii. The phrase “For ALMSGIVING LIFTETH OFF THE BURDEN OF SIN.” [in 2 Clement 16:4 above] can point to ‘Alms Deliver from Death’ Context as discussed in Appendix III in the Context of ‘Removing the Judgment of Sin’ as these quotes imply together too.

1. Which “work of righteousness” does the BIBLE specifically point to that “Cornelius did” (in this Context, the other definitions are possible but this DEFINITION OF FEARING GOD is FIRST as IT IS WRITTEN)?
2. GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY to the people,
3. and PRAYED to GOD ALWAYS

 

(The Bible Writes it in order above), Verses:

“… 1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]Regiment, 2a devout man and one who FEARED GOD with all his household, who GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY to the people, and PRAYED to GOD ALWAYS. 3About [c]the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” 4And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and YOUR ALMS [Charity] have come up for a memorial before God. 5Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He[d] will tell you what you must do.” 7And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa. 30So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and YOUR ALMS [Charitable Giving] are remembered in the sight of God. …” (Acts  10:1 – 8, 30 – 31, NKJV)

 

This Topic is not the focus here and thus may be seen further in detail in free pdf book in link below titled ‘Unsolved Mystery  – Is there Possible Gospel Hope for some Unbelieving Non Christians if Hell is Eternal?’

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_avSqmISwjySSj5rF5v5AoXXNnfIVB6H/view?usp=sharing

 

Note: Please note that King Cyrus of Persia’s Case of God Using him to do good even when He never knew God even after that may allow for such a Hope for some non-Christians to be doing the Charity Doctrine toward Christians and may be shown Mercy likewise (as Matthew 25:31 – 46 records) is discussed in the chapter titled “Would God Accept Good Works done by Unbelievers or Non-Christians?“ in link above.

5) Other Doctrines

 

1. i) No Repentance to become a Christian Salvation is available upon death

“… ; but if he have before this cast it into the furnace of fire, can no longer find any help for it: so let us also, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil deeds we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet an opportunity of repentance. For after we have GONE OUT OF THE WORLD, NO FURTHER POWER  of CONFESSING or REPENTING will there belong to us. Wherefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we shall obtain eternal life. For the Lord saith in the Gospel, “If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much.” This, then, is what He means: “Keep the flesh holy and the seal undefiled, that ye may receive eternal life.” …” (2 Clement, Attributed to Blessed St. Clement of Rome, a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter, c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, Chapter VIII)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-roberts.html

Comment: In quote above, to get that which is “great”, the Christian Salvation to Enter Heaven and Inherit it, it is “not” available for any type of repentance after death.

 

1. ii) Strong Judgment awaits those Christians or Churches who ‘gang up’ and ‘boycott certain people from ministry’ or equivalent (choosing their cronies or equivalent) waste time on ‘things not pertaining to salvation’ such as the ‘prosperity gospel’ or zeal about ‘doing things which are not written in Scripture or doing against it’

“… We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. FOR OUR SIN WILL NOT BE SMALL, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But WE SEE THAT YOU HAVE REMOVED SOME MEN OF EXCELLENT BEHAVIOUR FROM THE MINISTRY, WHICH THEY FULFILLED BLAMELESSLY and WITH HONOUR. Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and FULL OF ZEAL ABOUT THINGS which DO NOT PERTAIN TO SALVATION. LOOK CAREFULLY INTO THE SCRIPTURES, which are the TRUE UTTERANCES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 44 – 45)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

iii) True Christians are not found within a particular Church or Denomination and an Entire Church or denomination can be wrong but yet the more accurate Christian ought to let the ‘majority decide (even if they decide wrong)’ rather than cause a ‘new denomination or schism’ which doesn’t mix with the ‘wrong churches’ letting God Decide One Day.

This is not an opinion but seems more like a “Prophecy” below which may explain this truth which is by St. Clement of Rome himself:

 

“… Who then among you is NOBLE-MINDED? who compassionate? who FULL OF LOVE? Let him declare, “IF ON MY ACCOUNT SEDITION and DISAGREEMENT AND SCHISMS HAVE ARISEN, I WILL DEPART, I WILL GO AWAY whithersoever you desire, and I WILL DO WHATEVER THE MAJORITY COMMANDS; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it.” HE THAT ACTS THUS SHALL PROCURE TO HIMSELF GREAT GLORY IN THE LORD; and EVERY PLACE WILL WELCOME HIM. For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.” These things they WHO LIVE A GODLY LIFE, that is NEVER TO BE REPENTED OF, BOTH HAVE DONE AND ALWAYS WILL DO. … ” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement Chapter 54)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

This is the main reason why ‘we don’t believe in forming our own church even if we are right’ but as Blessed St. Clement of Rome commands in his apostolic authority, “… I will do whatever the majority commands …” even if it includes being kicked out of the church, i.e. “… If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever you desire …” as long as the Majority of Christians is happy [i.e. “… only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it …”] & this is not in reference of a heretic being put off from a Church but is referring to a True Christian as “… These things they who live a godly life, that is never to be repented of, both have done and always will do …” because these belong to “… Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love? …” where their reward of leaving Church is not eternal hell but amazingly, “… He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him …” .

Since St. Clement of Rome’s name is surely in the “Book of Life” (especially since Philippians 4:3 points to most likely him whilst he was still living), I would prefer to Believe, Preach and do the best I can do Practice his quotes which makes the Bible Verses quoted to be more accurately understood. Also, no point in quoting St. Clement of Rome in the Eternal Hell quote part only but ignoring all these other doctrines without which one might be in that eternal Hell indeed. May God have Mercy on whomever He Wills (Romans 9:15).

 

Apostolic Fathers Writings – The Didache’s Quotes on Eternal Punishment

 

1) History

 

“… The Didache (/ˈdɪdəkeɪ, -ki/; Greek: Διδαχή, translit. Didakhé, lit. “Teaching”),[1] also known as The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations (Διδαχὴ Κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν), is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise written in Koine Greek, dated by modern scholars to the first[2] or (less commonly) second century AD.[3] The first line of this treatise is “The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles (or Nations) by the twelve apostles”.[a] The text, parts of which constitute the oldest extant written catechism, has three main sections dealing with Christian ethics, rituals such as baptism and Eucharist, and Church organization. The opening chapters describe the virtuous Way of Life and the wicked Way of Death. The Lord’s Prayer is included in full. Baptism is by immersion, or by affusion if immersion is not practical. Fasting is ordered for Wednesdays and Fridays. Two primitive Eucharistic prayers are given. Church organization was at an early stage of development. Itinerant apostles and prophets are important, serving as “chief priests” and possibly celebrating the Eucharist. Meanwhile, local bishops and deacons also have authority and seem to be taking the place of the itinerant ministry.[4]

 

The Didache is considered the first example of the genre of Church Orders.[4] The Didache reveals how Jewish Christians saw themselves and how they adapted their practice for Gentile Christians.[5] The Didache is similar in several ways to the Gospel of Matthew, perhaps because both texts originated in similar communities.[6] The opening chapters, which also appear in other early Christian texts, are likely derived from an earlier Jewish source.[4] The Didache is considered part of the group of second-generation Christian writings known as the Apostolic Fathers. The work was considered by some Church Fathers to be a part of the New Testament,[7][8][9] while being rejected by others as spurious or non-canonical,[10][11][12] In the end, it was not accepted into the New Testament canon. However, works which draw directly or indirectly from the Didache include the Didascalia Apostolorum, the Apostolic Constitutions and the Ethiopic Didascalia, the latter of which is included in the “broader canon” of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

 

Lost for centuries, a Greek manuscript of the Didache was rediscovered in 1873 by Philotheos Bryennios, Metropolitan of Nicomedia, in the Codex Hierosolymitanus. A Latin version of the first five chapters was discovered in 1900 by J. Schlecht.[13] …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

 

Did you notice that it was ‘lost for centuries’ quote in last lines above despite many ancient references point to its existence in First Christianity as “Scripture” (Canonical Level) in some earliest Churches?

 

And so, I won’t be taking its content lightly. Perhaps the reason why some reject it may be seen in its ‘strict’ teaching of which those who practice it may not like it.

 

Now, which early Church leaders may have used this?

“… Athanasius (367) and Rufinus (c. 380) list the Didache among apocrypha. (Rufinus gives the curious alternative title Judicium Petri, “Judgment of Peter”.) It is rejected by Nicephorus (c. 810), Pseudo-Anastasius, and Pseudo-Athanasius in Synopsis and the 60 Books canon. It is accepted by the Apostolic Constitutions Canon 85, John of Damascus and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. The Adversus Aleatores by an imitator of Cyprian quotes it by name. Unacknowledged citations are very common, if less certain. The section Two Ways shares the same language with the Epistle of Barnabas, chapters 18–20, sometimes word for word, sometimes added to, dislocated, or abridged, and Barnabas iv, 9 either derives from Didache, 16, 2–3, or vice versa. There can also be seen many similarities to the Epistles of both Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch. The Shepherd of Hermas seems to reflect it, and Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria,[b] and Origen of Alexandria also seem to use the work, and so in the West do Optatus and the “Gesta apud Zenophilum.”[c] The Didascalia Apostolorum are founded upon the Didache. The Apostolic Church-Ordinances has used a part, the Apostolic Constitutions have embodied the Didascalia. There are echoes in Justin Martyr, Tatian, Theophilus of Antioch, Cyprian, and Lactantius. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

 

 

2) Hell Quote

 

“… And the WAY OF DEATH is this: First of all it is evil and accursed: murders, adultery, lust, fornication, thefts, idolatries, magic arts, witchcrafts, rape, false witness, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness; persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment, watching not for that which is good, but for that which is evil; from whom meekness and endurance are far, LOVING VANITIES, pursuing revenge, NOT PITYING A POOR MAN, NOT LABOURING FOR THE AFFLICTED, not knowing Him Who made them, murderers of children, destroyers of the handiwork of God, TURNING AWAY FROM WHO IS IN WANT, AFFLCITING HIM WHO IS DISTRESSED, ADVOCATES OF THE RICH, LAWLESS JUDGES OF THE POOR, utter sinners. Be delivered, children, from all these. …” – The Didache (Chapter 5)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

3) Discussion

 

There is “no” quote using the phrase “eternal hell” or “everlasting fire” or equivalent.

There is a ‘Way of Death’ Quote only as we saw earlier.

 

4) Charity Doctrine in the Didache

 

1. i) Charity Doctrine Lifestyle as the “Way of Life”

 

The ‘Way of Life’ is Described as Primarily doing the Charity Doctrine “GIVING” Commands of Christ in Matthew 5 to Matthew 7’s Sermon on the Mount which was summarized by Christ as “Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself” as the ‘Greatest Commands’ (Mark 12:29 – 31) which is similar to Christ’s Requirement for “What to do to inherit Eternal Life?” in the ‘Good Samaritan’ Parable to Teach the “Love your neighbour in Action” part which is nothing else than the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle (Luke 10:25 – 37)

 

“… There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The WAY OF LIFE, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one who asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. …” – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (1st Century, Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

“… 29JESUS answered him, “The [k]first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [l]This is the first commandment. 31And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is NO OTHER COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE.” …” (Mark 12:29 – 31, NKJV)

Yes, please compare “The Didache’s Way of Life” quote with Christ’s Reply for “What to do to inherit Eternal Life?” (Luke 10:25) next which is Described as only the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle of “Love your neighbour as yourself” in Action (Luke 10:26 – 37) below:

 

“… 25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?” 26He said to him, “What is WRITTEN IN THE LAW? What is YOUR READING OF IT?” 27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ ” 28And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” 29But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And WHO IS MY NEIGHBOR?” 30Then JESUS ANSWERED and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had COMPASSION. 34So he went to him and BANDAGED HIS WOUNDS, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and TOOK CARE OF HIM. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘TAKE CARE OF HIM; and WHATEVER MORE YOU SPEND, when I come again, I WILL REPAY YOU.’ 36So which of these three do you think was NEIGHBOR to him who fell among the thieves? 37And he said, “He who SHOWED MERCY on him.” Then JESUS SAID to him, “GO AND DO LIKEWISE.”…” (Luke 10:25 – 37, NKJV)

“… 7A woman of SAMARIA came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.”  … 21JESUS said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. …” (John 4:7, 21 – 22, KJV)

 

Comment: The phrase “…22You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship …” (John 4:22) means that a  “Samaritan” can represent a “non-Christian” Symbolically.

So this non-Christian (or Samaritan) who does not know the True God who did the “Charity Doctrine” as per the “Parable of the Good Samaritan” might attain to his reward to “inherit the Eternal Life” by Christ’s Mercy (Luke 10:25 – 27).

“… For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. …”(James 2:13, NKJV)

 

Regardless, did you notice that “God’s Gift of Mercy” is Proven toward those who “live a life of Mercy toward others via the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle as per the Parable of the Good Samaritan”(Luke 10:25 – 37) agreeing with this Verse in James 2:13 too?

1. ii) Charity Doctrine Lifestyle as “Ransom for your Sins”

 

Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Specifically “Almsgiving/Alms” or “Money to help others Financially” to be forgiven or as “RANSOM” for “JUDGMENT of SINS” (related to the ‘Alms Delivers from Death’ concept which is discussed at the end of this Book in Appendix III)

 

“… Be not a stretcher forth of the hands to receive and a drawer of them back to give. If you have anything, THROUGH YOUR HANDS YOU SHALL GIVE RANSOM FOR YOUR SINS. Do not hesitate to give, nor complain when you give; for you shall know who is the good repayer of the hire. Do not turn away from him who is in want; rather, share all things with your brother, and do not say that they are your own. …” – The Didache  or the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations (Chapter 4)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

iii) Apart from Sin, “not” living out the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle is a ‘Way of Death’

 

“… And the WAY OF DEATH is this: First of all it is evil and accursed: murders, adultery, lust, fornication, thefts, idolatries, magic arts, witchcrafts, rape, false witness, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness; persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment, watching not for that which is good, but for that which is evil; from whom meekness and endurance are far, LOVING VANITIES, pursuing revenge, NOT PITYING A POOR MAN, NOT LABOURING FOR THE AFFLICTED, not knowing Him Who made them, murderers of children, destroyers of the handiwork of God, TURNING AWAY FROM WHO IS IN WANT, AFFLCITING HIM WHO IS DISTRESSED, ADVOCATES OF THE RICH, LAWLESS JUDGES OF THE POOR, utter sinners. Be delivered, children, from all these. …” – The Didache (Chapter 5)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

–  Prosperity Gospel type of lifestyle such as these are part of the ‘WAY OF DEATH’ described here in phrases: “…  LOVING VANITIES, …, NOT PITYING A POOR MAN, NOT LABOURING FOR THE AFFLICTED … TURNING AWAY FROM WHO IS IN WANT, AFFLCITING HIM WHO IS DISTRESSED, ADVOCATES OF THE RICH, LAWLESS JUDGES OF THE POOR …”

 

Note: These phrases also clearly refer to anyone who is “not” living the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle in some way and thus is living the ‘Way of Death’.

 

5) Other Doctrines

 

1. i) Post-Mortem Salvation

 

Some may be only Saved in the Spirit World Judgment now after the PAY the LAST PENNY

 

“… Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. WOE to HIM WHO RECEIVES; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who RECEIVES NOT having NEED shall PAY the PENALTY, why he received and for what. And coming into CONFINEMENT, he shall be EXAMINED concerning the THINGS which he HAS DONE, and he shall NOT ESCAPE from THERE until he PAYS back the LAST PENNY. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let YOUR ALMS sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give…” – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (1st Century, Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

Comments:

 

 

1. “Confinement” here can refer to “Purgatory” and/or some equivalent Spirit World Judgment now or later.

 

 

1. The above cannot refer to an earthly judgment as there is ‘no prison/confinement’ here on earth by the Church to execute that or equivalent. So, it’s most likely post-mortem (i.e. after death) type of Judgment referred to here.

 

 

iii. The ones going into this “Prison/Confinement” are specifically referred to as those who “receive money” but “not for needs” which clearly puts many ‘prosperity pastors’ or any pastor or even any Christian who ‘take another person’s money  or Church Money but not for “needs” and could use it for luxury, prosperity, vanity or equivalent?’ Can you see it?

 

 

1. The word “Confinement” is equivalent to “Prison” and the phrase “Till the Last Penny” quote clearly puts this forth as the Spirit World Judgment Context as Christ Taught in the Gospels as we shall see next.

 

 

Compare: The “Prison” till the “Last Penny” seem to refer to the “Gehenna” (Final Hell or Lake of Fire Context) because Christ was talking about that Topic in Verses below:

 

 

“…  22 But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in DANGER of HELL [Gehenna] fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into PRISON. 26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:22 – 26, NKJV)

 

 

In another time, Christ uses that same phrase “Till the Last Penny” to refer to the “FIRE” He came to Kindle which is not kindled yet could mean ‘Lake of Fire Context’ too:

 

 

“… 49“I came to send FIRE on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! … 57“Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into PRISON . 59I tell you, you shall NOT DEPART FROM THERE TILL YOU HAVE PAID THE VERY LASY MITE. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:49, 57 – 59, NKJV)

 

In yet another time uses that same phrase “Till the Last Penny” to refer to the “unforgiveness attitude some have” which could mean ‘Lake of Fire or Hades Context’ too:

 

 

“… 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and DELIVERED HIM TO THE TORTURERS UNTIL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE TO HIM. 35“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [g]his trespasses. …” – Most Blessed Judge & KING of kings, Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 18:32 – 35, NKJV)

 

Note: please notice that these are three different conversations which may with the Didache quote may point to the fact that ‘not only that receiving money for not needs type of sin’ may merit that Judgment but more things too even possibly point to Hades now and Gehenna later too to be based on this Same Principle of Judgment ‘till the last penny’ in which case since the Wicked has “not” good deeds, they pay it (metaphorically) by losing both their “body and soul being destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) as Matthew 10:28” points as the PAYING which CHRIST MEANS is Recorded as “… and DELIVERED HIM TO THE TORTURERS UNTIL HE SHOULD PAY ALL THAT WAS DUE TO HIM. …”

 

 

1. The word “Confinement” is equivalent to “Prison” and the phrase “till the last penny” may also help us to understand these Bible Verses to Speak of Spirit World Judgment Context too likewise

 

So, can “Prison” refer to Hades (Hell now)?

 

 

The Word “PRISON” as a Metaphor to refer to HADES (Hell now) type of Salvation is ‘possible’ based on Verses below (please notice the word “PRISON” carefully in each Verses quoted here, by Christ earlier and also in the Didache as ‘Confinement’ carefully):

 

 

“… 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the SPIRITS in PRISON, 20who FORMERLY were DISOBEDIENT, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.  …” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

Note: The righteous spirits were “not in prison” (but in comfort regions as Abraham’s Bosom as Christ Taught in Luke 16:19 – 31) and the context here refers to “Disobedient” ones which cannot refer to the ‘Old Testament righteous’. The phrase “Formerly Disobedient” can mean that these have repented in the Spirit World and thus are ‘not disobedient’ anymore. Please also notice that they are in ‘the spirit-state’ which can mean that the wicked may be saved eventually in a ‘spirit-state’ only likewise with “no body and no soul”.

 

 

Also, can “Prison” refer to the Lake of Fire/Gehenna (Final Hell)?

 

 

At the same time, similarly, the Word “PRISON” as a Metaphor to refer to the Lake of Fire/Gehenna (Final Hell)? type of Salvation is ‘possible’ based on Verses below (please notice the word “PRISON” carefully in each Verses quoted here, by Christ earlier and also in the Didache as ‘Confinement’ carefully):

 

 

“… 21And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, AS PRISONERS ARE GATHERED IN THE PIT, and shall be SHUT UP IN THE PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be VISITED. …” (Isaiah 24:21 – 22, KJV)

 

Note: This ‘Saved in the Spirit’ possibility after both Body and Soul are Destroyed in Gehenna is discussed in detail in Appendix IV in this book.

 

4) Other Doctrines in the Didache

i.  Identification of the Traits of False Prophets Taught in the Didache

 

In our discussion next regarding ‘Identifying False Prophets’, we will use the translation given in link below unless stated otherwise:

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

1. i) False Apostles stay for 3 days or more at a place

“… But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there’s a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. …” – The Didache (Chapter 11)

 

1. ii) False Apostles ask for money

“… And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. …” – The Didache (Chapter 11)

Compare with these Bible Verses:

 

“And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.” (Luke 9:3. NKJV)

 

“and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff– no bread, no bag, no money in their belt–” (Mark 6:8, NKJV)

 

iii) Do not comment on a Spirit inside a person lest you may accidentally Commit the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

“… And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. …” – The Didache (Chapter 11)

Compare:

“28“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” (Mark 3:28 – 30, NKJV)

 

Note: Especially protestants need to be careful of this as many of their believers / leaders / pastors ‘easily’ throw words such as that toward those who don’t believe the same as them.

 

 

1. iv) False Prophets do not Practice what they Preach

 

“… And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. …” – The Didache (Chapter 11)

 

1. v) False Prophets Collect Money/Things for their use while True Prophets may ask you to Give to Charity / Poor / Needy only

 

“… But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him. …” – The Didache (Chapter 11)

 

1. vi) Tithes can “only” be collected by a Prophet who lives by the Rules Written above and not by ‘any pastor’ or alternately, one can give “Tithes directly to the poor”

 

“… But every true prophet who wants to live among you is worthy of his support. So also a true teacher is himself worthy, as the workman, of his support. Every first-fruit, therefore, of the products of wine-press and threshing-floor, of oxen and of sheep, you shall take and give to the prophets, for they are your high priests. But if you have no prophet, give it to the poor. …”- The Didache (Chapter 11)

 

Note: Please notice carefully that ‘tithes’ is not mentioned to be ‘given to the church’ as many churches practice today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Post Tribulation Rapture, One Gathering of the Elect, Chiliasm Timeline for First Resurrection at this Same Timeline and Hinting on a Second Resurrection later as ‘not of all’ is Taught in the Didache which occurs after the Final Antichrist is destroyed first

 

“… Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: FIRST, THE SIGN OF AN OUTSPREADING IN HEAVEN, THEN THE SIGN OF THE SOUND OF THE TRUMPET and THIRD, THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD – YET NOT OF ALL, but as it is said: “The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.” Then shall the WORLD SEE THE LORD COMING upon the clouds of heaven. …” – The Didache (Chapter 11)

 

Note: yes, the Didache clearly Teaches the “First Resurrection” not of all but Christians only (Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) which happens before ‘rapture’ for those who are alive (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17) as per the ‘Chiliasm’ Doctrine.

 

For those over-confident modern Christians: Is God Going to Say “… I never knew you …” based on these Teachings of the Didache to us who disobey it or to the First Christians who obeyed all these?

 

 

“… 31“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:31 – 32, NKJV)

 

Please notice also that the Didache also Taught post-Tribulation Rapture which Happens at the Second Coming of Christ as the First Resurrection per the Chiliasm Doctrine (i.e. ‘no’ Pre-Tribulation rapture) and Speaks of a ‘Second Resurrection’ later clearly in the phrase, “… THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD – YET NOT OF ALL, but as it is said …” in quote above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Apostolic Fathers Writings – Ignatius, Polycarp and Papias Quotes on Eternal Punishment

 

1) History

 

I combined all three of them because all of them are claimed to be direct Disciples of Blessed Apostle St. John who wrote the Gospels and the Book of Revelation. You can read about them in links below:

 

 

1. i) St. Papias of Hierapolis

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis

 

 

1. ii) St. Polycarp of Smyrna

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp

 

 

iii) St. Ignatius of Antioch

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Hell Quote

 

1. i) St. Papias of Hierapolis

 

In the writings which survived, we do “not” have any Eternal Hell quotes from St. Papias. So we don’t really know how he viewed Hell. Please don’t take my word for it. Please search for yourselves even both Protestant and Roman Catholic/Orthodox sources and see if they have any and you will find to date, none.

 

1. ii) St. Polycarp of Smyrna

 

St. Polycarp has only one quote and he uses the phrase

 

“… Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the ETERNAL and UNQUENCHABLE FIRE …”(“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

 

Source:

https://www.christianity.com/blogs/j-warner-wallace/what-did-early-christians-believe-about-hell.html

 

iii) St. Ignatius of Antioch

 

Strangely, despite numerous of his letters surviving, he too has only one Eternal Hell Quote:

 

“… Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh SUFFER DEATH, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God, for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified. A man [who has] become so foul will depart into UNQUENCHABLE FIRE: and so will anyone who listens to him. …” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

Source:

http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/EternalHell.htm#Ignatius

3) Discussion

 

The phrases used among them is only “… SUFFER DEATH …” and “… UNQUENCHABLE FIRE …” which does not point to an ‘eternal conscious torment’ but can just mean annihilation of body and soul and the spirit may be saved in that state as we have seen in writings earlier.

 

Though not using the word ‘eternal Hell’ or equivalent, one other phrase by St. Ignatius survives which can point to understanding that he believed in some type of annihilation as the annihilation believing Christian author in link below quotes:

 

“… For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe IMMORTALITY INTO HIS CHURCH. Be not anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you AWAY FROM THE LIFE which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why DO WE FOOLISHLY PERISH, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us? …”

Source: https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/history-of-hell/

 

The claim is that St. Ignatius clearly compares the IMMORTALITY as unique to the Church where to PERISH would mean the opposite which is not have that IMMORTALITY to LIFE.

 

The author in link above also claims likewise that “no” Apostolic Father of the Church taught any ‘Eternal Conscious Torment’ but a ‘limited one’ followed by ‘Annihilation’. This is very Biblical especially in light of Matthew 10:28’s Christ Warning that Gehenna (Lake of Fire) destroys specifically both “body and soul” only making “no” mention of the “spirit” aspect though ‘men have all three of these components’ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

 

So the author assumes that even the ‘spirit is annihilated’ but that is “not” Written in any Bible Verse but assumed. In fact the opposite may be Written which is the ‘spirit may be saved’ post Lake of Fire Judgment after the destruction of the “flesh” (meaning in a resurrected for Judgment body first, as per John 5:28 – 29) but ‘live to God’ in the spirit-state thereafter as 1 Peter 4:4 – 6 and 1 Corinthians 5:5 may point as such a repentance in the spirit-state from being “disobedient” changing to being “formerly disobedient” (indicating obedience post-Judgment) is possible based on 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 in Hades itself and so it may be possible likewise at Gehenna too as discussed in Appendix IV at the end of this Book. Please also notice that ‘Believing after Seeing’ possibility for some may exist as 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 can also include meaning that which is discussed in Appendix IV too.

1. i) St. Justin Martyr

 

This ‘saved in the spirit’ post-Judgment toward the “Wicked” as being ‘made subject to God’ in the context of ‘shall obey His Command’ as per the ‘formerly disobedient spirits’ too case in analogy (1 Peter 3:18 – 20) may what be expressed by St. Justin Martyr himself in his quotes below to refer to be possible in the Final Judgment as well likewise:

 

“… The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first. “Moreover, the prescription that twelve bells be attached to the [robe] of the high priest, which hung down to the feet, was a symbol of the twelve apostles, who depend on the power of Christ, the eternal Priest; and through their voice it is that all the earth has been filled with the glory and grace of God and of His Christ. Wherefore David also says: ‘Their sound has gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.’ And Isaiah speaks as if he were personating the apostles, when they say to Christ that they believe not in their own report, but in the power of Him who sent them. And so he says: ‘Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have preached before Him as if [He were] a child, as if a root in a dry ground.’ (And what follows in order of the prophecy already quoted.) But when the passage speaks as from the lips of many, ‘We have preached before Him,’ and adds, ‘as if a child,’ IT SIGNIFIES THAT THE WICKED SHALL BECOME SUBJECT TO HIM, and SHALL OBEY HIS COMMAND, and that ALL SHALL BECOME AS ONE CHILD. Such a thing as you may witness in the body: although the members are enumerated as many, all are called one, and are a body. For, indeed, a commonwealth and a church, though many individuals in number, are in fact as one, called and addressed by one appellation. And in short, sirs,” said I, “by enumerating all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself. But since what I have now enumerated appears to me to be sufficient, I revert again to the order of the discourse.” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100 AD – c. 160 AD (c. 100 AD – c. 160 AD, CHAPTER XLI & CHAPTER XLII, ‘Dialogue with Trypho’)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

(Please also notice ‘carefully’ how St. Justin Martyr distinguishes the Church as One Body vs the Wicked converted as ‘One Child’ as two different entities as follows as I separate the quote above into two parts to try to understand this):

 

 

1. a) The Wicked becoming Obedient/Subjected – as One Child

 

“…We have preached before Him as if [He were] a child, as if a root in a dry ground.’ (And what follows in order of the prophecy already quoted.) But when the passage speaks as from the lips of many, ‘We have preached before Him,’ and adds, ‘as if a child, IT SIGNIFIES THAT THE WICKED SHALL BECOME SUBJECT TO HIM, and SHALL OBEY HIS COMMAND, and that ALL SHALL BECOME AS ONE CHILD. … and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100 AD – c. 160 AD, CHAPTER XLI & CHAPTER XLII, ‘Dialogue with Trypho’)

 

 

 

1. b) The Church compared as an Analogy to that

 

“… Such a thing as you may witness in the body: although the members are enumerated as many, all are called one, and are a body. For, indeed, a commonwealth and a church, though many individuals in number, are in fact as one, called and addressed by one appellation … of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him,…” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100 AD – c. 160 AD, CHAPTER XLI & CHAPTER XLII, ‘Dialogue with Trypho’)

 

Source for both quotes above:

 

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

St. Justin Martyr may have also understood Matthew 10:28’s Destroy both “Body and Soul” in Gehenna/Lake of Fire and Mark 9:44 – 48’s “unquenchable fire” together with the “worm that does not die” based on Isaiah 66:24 likewise as just eventually only the dead bodies or carcass” (with “no” soul, “no” spirit, hence no more conscious torment remains possibly thus viewing the ‘wicked made subject/obey’ as his quote earlier rings to refer to the ‘spirit state’ when collectively taken), to quote:

 

“… but some injunctions and acts were likewise mentioned in REFERENCE to the MYSTERY of CHRIST, on account of the hardness of your people’s hearts. And that this is so, God makes known in Ezekiel, [when] He said concerning it: ‘If Noah and Jacob and Daniel should beg either sons or daughters, the request would not be granted them.’ [Ezekiel 14:14] And in Isaiah, of the VERY SAME MATTER He spake thus: ‘The Lord God said, they shall both go forth and look on the MEMBERS [of the BODIES] of the MEN that have TRANSGRESSED. For their WORM shall NOT die, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED, and they shall be a gazing-stock to ALL FLESH.’ [Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44 – 48] So that it becomes you to ERADICATE this HOPE from YOUR SOULS, and hasten to know in what way forgiveness of sins, and a HOPE of INHERITING the PROMISED GOOD THINGS, shall be yours. But there is no other [way] than this,–to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives.”… ” …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, CHAPTER XLIV)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

The Spectacle to “ALL FLESH” in contrast to these dead bodies/carcass indicates that these wicked ones cannot inherit the Earth or enjoy the Tastes of Heaven as the phrase “… ERADICATE this HOPE from YOUR SOULS, .…” seem to point to participating in an Immortal Resurrected Bodies in contrast. One thing is for sure: St. Justin’s usage here or anywhere else for the phrases “… their WORM shall NOT die, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED …” doesn’t seem to point to any ‘Conscious’ Torment eventually as only the “Carcass/Dead Body Pieces” seem to remain after some time as Isaiah 66:24 may likewise be recording this view as eternal as a reminder to never transgress God if the word here is “Eternal Fire” meant.

 

 

 

 

 

1. ii) St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

St. Irenaeous quote below seem to affirm first that IMMORTALITY only belongs to those saved while for the rest while mocking a gnostic error below:

 

“… And then the DOCTRINE CONCERNING THE RESURRECTION  OF BODIES WHICH WE BELIEVE, will emerge true and certain [from their system]; since, [as we hold, ] God, when He resuscitates our mortal bodies which preserved righteousness, will render them INCORRUPTIBLE AND IMMORTAL. For God is superior to nature, and has in Himself the disposition [to show kindness], because He is good; and the ability to do so, because He is mighty; and the faculty of fully carrying out His purpose, because He is rich and perfect. …  3. But these men are in all points inconsistent with themselves, when they decide that all souls do not enter into the intermediate place, but those of the righteous only. For they maintain that, according to nature and substance, three sorts [of being] were produced by the Mother: the first, which proceeded from perplexity, and weariness, and fear-that is material substance; the second from impetuosity -that is animal substance; but that which she brought forth after the vision of those angels who wait upon Christ, is spiritual substance. If, then, that substance which she brought forth will by all means enter into the Pleroma because it is spiritual, while that which is material will remain below because it is material, and shall be totally consumed by the fire which bums within it, why should not the whole animal substance go into the intermediate place, into which also they send the Demiurge? But what is it which shall enter within their Pleroma? For they maintain that souls shall continue in the intermediate place, while bodies, because they possess material substance, when they have been resolved into matter, shall be consumed by that fire which exists in it; but their body being thus destroyed, and their soul remaining in the intermediate place, no part of man will any longer be left to enter in within the Pleroma. For the INTELLECT OF MAN-HIS MIND, thought, mental intention, and such like-is NOTHING ELSE THAN HIS SOUL; but the emotions and operations of the soul itself have no substance apart from the soul. What part of them, then, will still remain to enter into the Pleroma? For THEY THEMSELVES, in as far as THEY ARE SOULS, REMAIN IN THE INTERMEDIATE PLACE; while, in as far as THEY ARE BODY, THEY WILL BE CONSUMED WITH THE REST OF MATTER .…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book II, Chapter XXIX, Points 2-partial, 3)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

 

Please notice that at the end (after mocking their error), St. Irenaeous explains that even these heretics in the context of souls will remain in the “intermediate place” but “their bodies” will be consumed with the rest of matter seems to indicate the possibility that post Gehenna such a thing may be possible too except that even the “soul with body” is destroyed leaving only “possibly” the “spirit” saved in the “intermediate place*”.

 

*Intermediate Place certainly refers to the Spirit World Context as seen in contrast of the ‘Christians Case’ where we are Promised full Resurrection Bodily before entering Heaven (and until then we can only enjoy the Intermediate Places with our soul as per the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Luke 16:19 – 31):

 

“… For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the SHADOW OF DEATH” [Ps. 23:4], where the SOULS OF THE DEAD WERE, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that THE SOULS OF HIS DISCIPLES ALSO, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, SHALL GO AWAY INTO THE INVISIBLE PLACE ALLOTTED TO THEM BY GOD, and THERE REMAIN UNTIL RESURRECTION, awaiting that event; then RECEIVING THEIR BODIES, and RISING IN THEIR ENTIRETY, THAT IS BODILY, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. “For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master” [Luke 6:40]. As our MASTER, therefore, DID NOT at once depart,  TAKING FLIGHT [TO HEAVEN], but AWAITED THE TIME OF HIS RESURRECTION prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought WE ALSO AWAIT THE TIME OF OUR RESURRECTION PRESCRIBED BY GOD and foretold by the prophets, and so, RISING, BE TAKEN UP, AS MANY AS THE LORD SHALL ACCOUNT WORTHY OF THIS [privilege]. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book V, Chapter XXXI)

Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm

St. Justin Martyr also affirmed this process in his quote below that Christians do “not” ascend to any “Heaven” Regions yet but only the Blessed Intermediate Place Comfort Regions such as ‘Abraham’s Bosom’ (as per Luke 16:19 – 31) with THEIR SOULS but may only enter HEAVEN post BODILY RESURRECTION in the FIRST RESURRECTION later:

“…For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with SOME WHO ARE CALLED CHRISTIANS, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and THAT THEIR SOULS, WHEN THEY DIE, ARE TAKEN TO HEAVEN; DO NOT IMAGINE THAT THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, …  But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho, 80:9, CHAPTER LXXX)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

St. Justin Martyr understood that there is only One Resurrection for each person where Resurrection means the “Soul returning to a Body” thus making the ‘flesh alive again’ and clearly differentiates the existence of “Body, Soul, Spirit” likewise with the ‘spirit being the real thing ‘that dies not’ making the live in ‘spirit state’ after “body and soul” (the ‘outer shell/houses as he says) even if “destroyed” in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28) the ‘spirit may live’ separately (1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:4 – 6 ):

 

“… The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved. [1 Thessalonians 5:23] …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, ‘FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION’ CHAPTER X)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-resurrection.html

 

St. Justin’s quote below regarding the phrase “… The soul who sins shall die. …” (Ezekiel 18:20) seem to refer to utter annihilation of the soul for he seems to say that if that happens that’s a good fortune for evil as it escapes. He mentions clearly the similar intermediate state belief (as per Luke 16:19 – 31) for the ‘souls of the pious’ in a better place just like St. Irenaeous earlier while some of the wicked souls (implied) may be alive to be punished or some ay “die” (implied by context of comparison here) pointing again to the strong possibility that Matthew 10:28’s “body and soul” destroyed may only leave behind a ‘spirit state’ existence which can be seen within St. Justin’s own words above and below here when combined:

 

“… But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished. …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Tyrpho, Chapter V)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

 

 

I think that Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons has been misrepresented to teach ‘complete annihilation’ based on his quotes below:

“… Nevertheless they endure, and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their Creator; so that He grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards. 3. For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance. The prophetic Spirit bears testimony to these opinions, when He declares, “For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created: He hath established them for ever, yea, forever and ever.” And again, He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: “He asked life of Thee, and Thou gavest him length of days for ever and ever; ” indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? ” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever. 4. But as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul, yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases; so the soul herself is not life, but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God. Wherefore also the prophetic word declares of the first-formed man, “He became a living soul,” teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive; so that the soul, and the life which it possesses, must be understood as being separate existences. When God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [for ever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. For the will of God ought to govern and rule in all things, while all other things give way to Him, are in subjection, and devoted to His service. Thus far, then, let me speak concerning the creation and the continued duration of the soul. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Chapter XXXIV, ‘Against Heresies’, Book II, Points 2, 3, 4)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

 

Please consider the explanations below from this quote:

1. The Wicked will not receive the length of days “for ever and ever”

 

“… But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever [literally, ‘to the ages of Ages’]. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? ” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

1. This continuance of life refers to the Context of “souls and spirits” as Blessed St. Irenaeous defined this first as prior as follows:“… so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

iii. The continuance in the ‘length of days for ever and ever’ denied to the Wicked means that the Wicked remain in a “spirit state” as they are not made alive  with “a body” as the context of “Living soul” below means  (1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23)

“…4. But as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul, yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases; so the soul herself is not life, but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God. Wherefore also the prophetic word declares of the first-formed man, “He became a living soul,” teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive;  …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

Please notice carefully that the “soul becoming alive” has to do with it gaining a “body” as the “soul herself is not life” as Blessed St. Irenaeous clearly explains above using the past example of the “living soul” of the First Man formed likewise too in analogy.

 

1. It is also interesting to note that St. Irenaeous doesn’t view Eternity as the next age singularly but rather as a “long series of ages” in the Context of ‘for ever and ever’ which may thus also be viewed as ‘ages of Ages’ literally

 

“… Nevertheless they endure, and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their Creator; so that He grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

So again, neither does this contradict the position that the ‘spirit may be saved’ post Final Judgment after both the “body and soul” are destroyed in Gehenna.

 

1. There is also a ‘possibility’ that St. Irenaeous may have believed in Christ Centered Universalism as per quote below

“… Christ, who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fulness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. AND IN THE END OF TIME HE SHALL COME TO DO AWAY WITH ALL EVIL, AND TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS [Colossians 1:16,20*], in order that there may be AN END OF ALL IMPURITIES. … ” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Fragment XXXIX, FRAGMENTS FROM THE LOST WRITINGS OF IRENAEUS)

Translation Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-fragments.html

Because just like the quote earlier shows that the wicked spirit may “not” get continuance in a “body and soul for ever and ever” (or literally “ages of Ages”),   his general quotes below seem to imply that at some ‘future maturity time’ God may actually may make “ALL FLESH ANEW” (implying each spirit gets a body + soul too to become flesh) referring to the “WHOLE HUMAN RACE” Context in his quotes below showing even that the ‘Punishment of Backsliding’ will correct them eventually:

 

“… Proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [FUTURE] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to GATHER ALL THINGS in ONE,” and to RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and THINGS UNDER the EARTH [Hell], and that every tongue should confess” to Him, …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Chapter X, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Point 1)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html

Note: Some may argue that the ‘raise up anew all flesh of the human race’ can refer to before some are cast into the Lake of Fire which is also possible. In that case, perhaps the wicked is saved in the spirit-state only post-judgment.

 

The next quote below too seems ‘general’ toward ‘man’ where the phrase “… the DISSOLUTION of the FLESH …” in the Context of ‘Ending All Evil’ in “…he [MAN] should continue a sinner for ever [to the AGE, AEON], NOR that the SIN which surrounded him should be IMMORTAL, and EVIL INTERMINABLE and IRREMEDIABLE.  …” implies that “… MAN, CEASING at length to live to SIN, and dying to it, might begin to live to God…” seems like a similar phrase to “…but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:6, NKJV).

 

If true, then “… the DISSOLUTION of the FLESH …” can refer to the Destruction of both “body and Soul” in the Lake of Fire (Matthew 10:28) which causes the ‘end of sin in them’ and finally they “… , might begin to live to God…” in the spirit-state not being disobedient anymore (as the past analogy of 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 makes this possible too) where this entire process might what be referred to in Bible Verses below in full:

 

“… 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:6, NKJV)

 

This quote by St. Irenaeous in full really seems to indicate Christ Centered Universalism which might be understood in full as follows as the phrase  “… He pitied him [MAN], [and did NOT desire] that he [MAN] should continue a sinner for ever [to the AGE, AEON], ..” (with [additions of AGE/AEON] to read it with the ‘literal possibility]) seems to imply this:

 

“… He pitied him [MAN], [and did NOT desire] that he [MAN] should continue a sinner for ever [to the AGE, AEON], NOR that the SIN which surrounded him should be IMMORTAL, and EVIL INTERMINABLE and IRREMEDIABLE. … and thus causing sin to cease, putting an END to it by the DISSOLUTION of the FLESH, which should take place in the earth, so that MAN, CEASING at length to live to SIN, and dying to it, might begin to live to God…  ADAM received NEW LIFE; and the LAST ENEMY, DEATH, is DESTROYED, which at the first had taken possession of MAN. Therefore, WHEN MAN has been LIBERATED, “… HIS SALVATION is DEATH’s DESTRUCTION. When therefore the Lord VIVIFIES MAN, that is, ADAM, DEATH is at the same time DESTROYED” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD,  ‘Against Heresies’ Book 3, Chapter XXIII, Point 6, Point 7)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html

 

The Punishment (of body + soul destroyed in Gehenna) may bring about “healing” from “Apostasy” via “Punishment” as St. Irenaeous is quoting Jeremiah 2:19 below clearly in post-Judgment Context:

“…The Lord has therefore endured all these things on our behalf, in order that we, having been instructed by means of them all, may be in all respects circumspect for the TIME TO COME and that, having been RATIONALLY taught to love God, we may continue in His perfect love: for God has displayed LONG-SUFFERING in the case of MAN’s APOSTASY; while man has been instructed by means of it, as also the prophet says, “THINE OWN APOSTASY shall HEAL THEE;  [Jeremiah 2:19]” God thus DETERMINING ALL THINGS BEFOREHAND [Ephesians 1:11] for the BRINGING of MAN to PERFECTION [Ephesians 1:9 – 10], for his edification, and for the revelation of His DISPENSATIONS, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the CHURCH may be FASHIONED after the IMAGE of His Son, and that MAN may FINALLY be brought to MATURITY at SOME FUTURE TIME, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Book 4, Chapter XXXVII)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html

Compare:

“… THINE OWN WICKEDNESS SHALL CORRECT THEE, AND THY BACKSLIDINGS SHALL REPROVE THEE:  know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts. …” (Jeremiah 2:19, KJV)

 

A strikingly similar quote can be found in St. Athanasius the Great below:

 

“…  6. Shall not God much more spare His own creatures, that they be not led astray from Him and serve things of nought? especially since such going ASTRAY proves the CAUSE of THEIR RUIN and UNDOING, and since it was UNFITTING that THEY should PERISH which had once been PARTAKERS of GOD’S IMAGE. 7. What then was GOD to DO? or what was to be done SAVE the RENEWING of THAT WHICH WAS in God’s image, so that by it MEN might ONCE MORE be able to know Him? But how could this have come to pass save by the presence of the very Image of God, our Lord Jesus Christ? For by men’s means it was impossible, since they are but made after an image; nor by angels either, for not even they are (God’s) images. Whence the Word of God came in His own person, that, as He was the Image of the Father, He might be able to CREATE AFRESH the MAN after the IMAGE. 8. But, again, it could not else have taken place had NOT DEATH and CORRUPTION been DONE AWAY. 9. Whence He took, in natural fitness, a mortal body, that while DEATH might in it be once for all done away, MEN MADE after His Image might ONCE MORE be RENEWED. None other then was sufficient for this need, save the Image of the Father… in the same way also the most holy Son of the Father, being the Image of the Father, came to our region to RENEW MAN once made in His likeness, and find him, as one lost, by the remission of sins; as He says Himself in the Gospels: “I came238 to FIND and to SAVE the LOST.” Whence He said to the Jews also: “Except239 a man be BORN AGAIN,” not meaning, 44as they thought, birth from woman, but speaking of the SOUL BORN and CREATED ANEW in the likeness of God’s image. … ” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD),

(Quotes above – Section 13.6 – 9, Point 14.2, in Consecutive-Order of Context from the ‘On the Incarnation’ Book)

Section 13

https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204/npnf204.vii.ii.xiii.html

Section 14

https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204/npnf204.vii.ii.xiv.html

 

Please notice carefully that St. Athanasius understands the phrase “BORN AGAIN” as the “SOUL BORN” referring to the ‘Resurrection of the Dead’ Context clearly as the Soul Restored in a Body gives a Resurrected Body and thus is Born Again without which Christ Said that one “cannot see” the Kingdom of God but to “Enter the Kingdom of God” (i.e. to ‘inherit it’, one has to be “Born of Water and Spirit” too and not just “Born Again” in the flesh which is exclusively for ‘Christians Only’ if we take ‘each word’ to mean thus uniquely.

Please compare:

 

1. a) Born Again refers to Soul + Body to attain to a Bodily Resurrection

“… “Except239 a man be BORN AGAIN,” not meaning, 44as they thought, birth from woman, but speaking of the SOUL BORN and CREATED ANEW in the likeness of God’s image. … ” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD)

 

1. b) Born Again can see the Kingdom of God

“…3JESUS ANSWERED and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, UNLESS ONE IS BORN [a]AGAIN, he CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” …” (John 3:3, NKJV)

Note: Could this ‘Born Again’ part of “Soul getting a Body” during the Second Resurrection who are Saved on ‘Judgment Day’ (Matthew 25:31 – 46 seem to mention some surprised sheep who were kind via the Charity Doctrine to the least of Christ’s Brethren/Christians) and thus can refer to the “possibility” that some non-Christians who are saved by His Mercy on Judgment Day who may visit the Lowest Heaven (the New Jerusalem City) as Revelation 21:24 – 28 Speaks? This “Possibility” was discussed in “Kingdom of Heaven Mystery” Book in free pdf in link below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dPuVvNAb4brXqF_lMjpTGvrss7ZA5Fxb/view?usp=sharing

1. c) Born of Water and Spirit only then can “Enter the Kingdom of God” to “Inherit it” being “Least vs Greatest” accordingly

“… 5JESUS answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT, he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.” …” (John 3:5 – 8, NKJV)

“… 19Whoever therefore BREAKS one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called LEAST in the KINGDOM of HEAVEN; but whoever DOES and TEACHES them, he shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of heaven.…  20For I say to you, that unless YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEEDS the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by NO MEANS ENTER the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. …” – KING of the Heavens and the Most Blessed One, LORD of lords, Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19 – 20, NKJV)

 

Comment: This must refer to ‘Christians only’ as they are the only ones ‘Born of Water and Spirit’. The phrase “enter the Kingdom” thus refers to “inheriting it” (in John 3:5) while the lesser phrase “see the Kingdom of God” in John 3:3 earlier may refer to the ability to see and visit/experience it during the visits “these saved ones from the nations” make after being Saved on Judgment Day (as the Lamb’s Book of Life is only Revealed on this Day as per Revelation 21:27’s Context agreeing to this Timeline likewise below):

 

“…. 24And the NATIONS [n]of THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” (Revelation 21: 24 – 27, NKJV)

Under this View, we can also possibly view this next Verse as follows:

“… And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. …” – apostle John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

 

Where possibly:

The Spirit = God

The Bride = Christians

“who thirsts” = some non-Christians who are being Saved on Judgment Day (e.g. Revelation 21:24 – 27, Matthew 25:31 – 46, Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, Isaiah 45:21 – 23 quoted earlier).

 

So if the ‘spirit’ from among the wicked is eventually ‘saved’ to the point of getting a ‘new flesh’ by being ‘born again’ (just assuming, not saying it is so), then it may likewise just “see” the “Kingdom of God” in some regions say the New Earth but never inherit it as that loss is certainly eternal.

The being ‘saved in the spirit-state’ seems to be something an important Indian Christian by the name of Sadhu Sundar Singh may have learnt from his visions too, to quote (example):

 

 

“… Yes, I have talked with the venerable Swedenborg and some other saints and angels about the hells, although I am unable to explain adequately all that they told me. But it is somewhat like this ; No spirit can exist forever, if separated from God by sin or evil. It must either cease to exist or return to God who is the source of life. There is no spirit which will ever cease to exist ; therefore EVERY SPIRIT FINALLY MUST RETURN TO GOD EVEN THOUGH IT MAY BE AFTER AGES OF AGES* . . . ” – Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh (January 2, 1929)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.51820/2015.51820.Sundar-Singh-A-Biography-1958_djvu.txt

 

*Ages of ages is the literal Greek term also which is translated as “for ever and ever” in Revelation 14:11 or Revelation 20:10.

 

iii) St. Ignatius of Antioch

 

In light of all these quotes St. Ignatius of Antioch might have echoed these seemingly ‘Christ Centered Universalism’ Hope in the Context of ‘All Men’ even as ‘Lover of Mankind’ toward ‘Enemies’ seems to indicate in Context of Quotes below (which is discussed in Appendix IV further):

 

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], DREW ALL MEN to Himself for their ETERNAL SALVATION [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

 

And

 

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND, and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

4) Charity Doctrine in St. Polycarp

 

“… STAND FAST, therefore, in these things, and FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD, being firm and UNCHANGEABLE IN THE FAITH, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]” Be all of you subject one to another? having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,” that YE MAY BOTH RECEIVE PRAISE FOR YOUR GOOD WORKS, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But WOE TO HIM by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, CHAPTER X.–EXHORTATION TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

 

*The phrase “Alms Deliver from Death” is discussed in Appendix III in detail.

 

 

5) Other Doctrines in St. Papias and St. Ignatius

 

1. i) St. Ignatius seem to Point to the Continence Race of Faith referring to “not Marrying”

 

“… If any one can continue in a STATE of PURITY, to the honour of Him who is Lord of the flesh, let him so REMAIN WITHOUT BOASTING. If he begins to BOAST, he is UNDONE; and if he reckon himself GREATER than the BISHOP, he is RUINED. But it becomes both men and women who marry, to form their union with the approval of the bishop, that their marriage may be according to God, and not after their own lust. Let all things be done to the honour of God….” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, an Apostolic Father of the Church being a Direct Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD)

Source (Chapter 5): https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0110.htm

Warning: If anyone boasts just because he/she is a virgin in a “state of purity” for Christ, such a person can lose this reward entirely being “undone”. Also, if he/she is thinks that they are greater than a Bishop because of this, likewise such a one may be “ruined”. So, please be “Wise” as the Great First Christianity Saint above.

 

1. ii) St. Papias taught that the thirty-fold Christians inherit the lowest heaven (the New Jerusalem City), the sixty-fold Christians inherit “Paradise” while the hundredfold Christians inherit the “heavens” beyond that, to quote:

 

“… A fragment from the early 2nd century of one of the lost volumes of Papias, a Christian bishop, expounds that “heaven” was separated into three distinct layers. He referred to the first as just “heaven”, the second as “paradise”, and the third as “the city”. Papias taught that “there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce a hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold”. In the 2nd century AD, Irenaeus (a Greek bishop) wrote that not all who are saved would merit an abode in heaven itself. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity

 

 

 

Apostolic Fathers Writings – Shepherd of Hermas and Epistle of Barnabas Quotes on Eternal Punishment

 

1) History

 

Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens.

 

Please consider the Following Approval Quotes for the Shepherd of Hermas in First Christianity:

 

 

1. Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity) and Pope St. Callixtus I (head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity)

 

“… Tertullian implies that Pope Callixtus I had quoted it as an authority (though evidently not as one of the books of the Bible), for he replies: “I would admit your argument, if the writing of The Shepherd had deserved to be included in the Divine Instrument, and if it were not judged by every council of the Churches, even of your own Churches, among the apocryphal.” …”

 

1. St. Cyprian Carthage and Pseudo-Cyprian writings perspective of the Shepherd of Hermas

 

“… Cyprian makes no reference to this work, so it would seem to have been out of use in Africa during the early decades of the 3rd century. Somewhat later it is quoted by the author of the pseudo-Cyprianic tract Adversus aleatores as “Scriptura divina”, …”

 

 

 

 

iii. St. Clement of Alexandria – Head of the Oldest Bible School in First Christianity, the Alexandrian School

 

“… Though Clement of Alexandria constantly quotes with reverence a work that seems to him to be very useful, and inspired; yet he repeatedly apologizes, when he has occasion to quote it, on the ground that “some people despise it”. …”

Note: the ‘some people who despise it’ doesn’t mean that they’re right as Christians even despise some Bible Verses. No ‘big name’ or saints in First Christianity ever despised the Shepherd of Hermas Writing.

 

1. Pseudo Tertullian Writings

 

“… A poem written against Marcion from the 3rd or 4th century, by a writer adopting the name and persona of Tertullian — and sometimes therefore referred to as “Pseudo-Tertullian” — states “Then, after him, Pius, whose brother according to the flesh was Hermas, the angelic shepherd, because he spoke the words given to him.” Note that Pseudo-Tertullian quotes some details from this list which are absent from the Liberian Catalogue, which may mean that he is independent of it. …”

 

1. Official Documents of the Reign of Roman Catholic Popes

 

“… The Liberian Catalogue of Popes, a record that was later used in the writing of the Liber Pontificalis, states in a portion under the heading of 235: “Under his [Pius’] episcopate, his brother Ermes wrote a book in which are contained the precepts which the angel delivered to him, coming to him in the guise of a Shepherd.” …”

 

1. St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation)

 

“… The Shepherd of Hermas (Greek: Ποιμὴν τοῦ Ἑρμᾶ, Poimēn tou Herma; sometimes just called The Shepherd) is a Christian literary work of the late first half of the second century, considered a valuable book by many Christians, and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers such as Irenaeus.[1] …”

 

 

vii. First Bible in Eastern Christianity (e. g.The “Codex Claromontanus”)

 

“… The Shepherd was very popular amongst Christians in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.[2] It is part of the Codex Sinaiticus,[3][4] and it is listed between the Acts of the Apostles and the Acts of Paul in the stichometrical list of the Codex Claromontanus. …”

 

viii. First (Oldest) Bible (Canon) in all of Christianity – The Muratorian Canon or Roman Canon

“… The Muratorian fragment is a list written c. 170 AD (although some scholars now question this date and prefer to assign the fragment to the 4th century.[12]) that may be the earliest known canon of New Testament writings. It identifies Hermas, the author of The Shepherd, as the brother of Pius I, bishop of Rome: But Hermas wrote The Shepherd very recently, in our times, in the city of Rome, while bishop Pius, his brother, was occupying the chair of the church of the city of Rome. And therefore it ought indeed to be read; but it cannot be read publicly to the people in church either among the Prophets, whose number is complete,[13] or among the Apostles, for it is after their time. …”

Note: the First Christians unanimously approved the Shepherd as Inspired Scripture as the last quote above clearly proves but they didn’t want it to be easily read in church as its knowledge is great and may not be suitable for immature or young believers.

 

1. St. Augustine and St. Jerome

“… but in Jerome’s day it was “almost unknown to the Latins”. Curiously, it went out of fashion in the East, so that the Greek manuscripts of it are but two in number; whereas in the West it became better known and was frequently copied in the Middle Ages. …”

 

Source for each quote above from (i) to (ix):

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shepherd_of_Hermas

 

1. Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of Orthodoxy and Champion of Trinity)

 

To quote from a ‘purely Roman Catholic source’ too:

 

“… The Muratorian Fragment*(c.200) says: “And very recently in our own times, in the city of Rome, Hermas wrote the Pastor, when his brother Pius, the bishop, sat upon the chair of the city of Rome.” … The Shepherd was well-regarded by several of the Fathers, though there was little interest in it by St. Jerome’s time. St. Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Origen considered the Shepherd inspired, while Eusebius and St. Athanasius approved of its use for catechumens. …”

 

Source:

https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/church-fathers-shepherd-hermas/

 

 

 

2) Hell Quote

 

If the “Shepherd of Hermas” is “Scripture”, then it may be talking about a “non-Elect Salvation possibility” because the “Elect Salvation” is compared to it as the “Tower” [which in this Book refers Parabolically to the “Tower of Repentance” signifying all the Elect who will Repent in this Life itself]. So the “Salvation” described below to ‘some’ (not all yet clearly) must thus refer to the Opposite Context of ‘Repentance in the Spirit World’ simply because if these Repented on earth how can they not be placed in the “Tower of Repentance” then? To Quote (Please notice also that this type of Salvation includes the ‘unbaptized’ who ‘wished to be baptized’ so non-Christians too may be possible for this Purgatory, if it truly is Purgatory Described here), to quote:

 

“… “Now the other stones which you saw cast far away from the tower, and falling upon the public road and rolling from it into pathless places, are those who have indeed believed, but through doubt have abandoned the true road. Thinking, then, that they could find a better, they wander and become wretched, and enter upon pathless places. But those which fell into the fire and were burned? are those who have departed for ever from the living God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed. Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

3) Discussion

If you read this entire chapter, Hermas is asking the Angel of Repentance here (some say it’s Blessed Archangel Michael himself) as follows:

 

1. This non-Elect “possibility of repentance” is asked for “ALL the REJECTED STONES” (and not only the ‘wish to be baptized case’)

 

“… “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?”  …”

 

2. The Angel of Repentance Says can but after a Purgatorial Type of Judgment first:

 

“… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. …”

 

iii. Most likely this is “not” Repentance on earth being described here because such ones cannot find a ‘place in the “Tower of Repentance” (Context of Elect Salvation) as they are placed in a “… MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, …” and “… CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. … IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*]  …”.

 

3. How do we know that the Context of “Tower” here Parabolically refers to the “Tower of Repentance”? It’s Described earlier as follows ‘Tower of Repentance’ = ‘the Church’ = ‘the Elect Salvation’ so the Salvation described earlier must be a ‘Salvation outside the Church, hence non-Elect’ if these are read ‘as it is Written’ here and ‘Compared’, to quote:

 

 

 

“…  “Many indeed shall hear, and hearing, some shall be glad, and some shall weep. But even these, if they hear and repent, shall also rejoice. Hear, then, the PARABLES of the TOWER; for I will reveal all to you, and give me no more trouble in regard to revelation: for these revelations have an end, for they have been completed. But you will not cease praying for revelations, for you are shameless. The TOWER which you see building is myself, THE CHURCH, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion. Ask, then, whatever you like in regard to the tower, and I will reveal it to you, that you may rejoice with the saints.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter III, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

4. The ‘earthly repentance’ opportunity to be part of the “Tower” (Church/Elect Salvation) is clearly only in this lifetime and not available on the next as it’s compared below for ‘some temporarily rejected stones’ as follows which are different from the previous rejected stones to whom second chance of repentance is offered but can never be part of the “Tower” (Church/Elect salvation) hence implying non-Elect Salvation most likely:

 

“… “Who then are those whom they REJECTED and CAST AWAY?” “These are they who have sinned, and WISH to REPENT. On this account they have not been thrown far from the TOWER, because they will yet be useful in the building, IF THEY REPENT. Those then who are to repent, if they do repent, will be strong in FAITH, if they now repent while the tower is building. For if the BUILDING be FINISHED, there will NOT BE MORE ROOM FOR ANY ONE, but he will be REJECTED. This privilege, however, will belong only to him who has NOW BEEN PLACED NEAR THE TOWER …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter V, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

 

 

 

5. As opposed to the Roman Catholic interpretation that this Shepherd of Hermas-Purgatory refers only to those ‘holy but imperfect Roman Catholics’ the Part describing this Purgatorial Hell part seems to include the following for the ‘Salvation which is in a much more inferior place and not the Tower of Repentance/not Church’ (please read back Chapter VII, Third Vision, quoted in first point “i” above) to see this ‘all these rejected stones’ cast refers to:

 

1. Now the other stones which you saw cast far away from the tower, and falling upon the public road and rolling from it into pathless places, are those who have indeed believed, but through doubt have abandoned the true road. Thinking, then, that they could find a better, they wander and become wretched, and enter upon pathless places.

 

1. But those which fell into the fire and were burned? are those who have departed for ever from the living God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed.

 

• Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.”

These rejected ones don’t sound like ‘some holy souls here”? To these ones only this hope next is Uttered (with no omissions just consecutive Verses which continue next as follows):

“… She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas earlier

Note: The “… THOUGHT of REPENTING …” which occurs when they are being “punished” (if in the Spirit World) could be referred to here as the “… PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD …” condition mentioned here toward those ‘rejected stones’ who have to go to this “Purgatorial” experience first  before being Saved or the phrase “… PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD …” could refer to them partaking of some “Good Works” in their life prior (perhaps Almsgiving Work toward Christians when I was hungry/thirty/naked/homeless as Described in Matthew 25:31 – 46 could match here too).

No one can say for sure and that’s why I call these “possibilities”.

Here’s a First Christianity Example of where a difference in the Doctrine of eschatology (End Time Prophecies) does not matter for one to have a “true and pious faith”.

 

Indeed, St. Justin Martyr does not condemn those who did not believe in the Chiliasm Doctrine or ‘Millennialism’ timelines but calls them “pious Christians” too and not heretics. My position is same as Blessed St. Justin Martyr as per 1 Corinthians 4:5 regarding “judge nothing before its time” in the Context of ‘future prophecies’ where I do not condemn any Christian who differs in belief from me, to quote:

 

“… I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. …”  –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ  (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chapter 110)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

 

Please be careful of some Protestant attitude to simply claim some very rough language against the ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book because if on Judgment Day it turns out to be “Scripture”, condemning any Scripture could be liable to the “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” which has “no” forgiveness either in this age nor in the age to come:

“… Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:32, NKJV)

 

 

4) Charity Doctrine in this Shepherd of Hermas

The “Shepherd of Hermas” also clearly describes such “Unsaved Prosperity Gospel type of Christians” to be in Danger as follows (and so, May God Help whom He Wills to “Repent” before it’s too late):

 

1. Prosperity Gospel type of Christians who Practice “LUXURIES type of lifestyle” may not be saved

 

“… And he said to me, “Do you see this shepherd?” “I see him, sir,” I said. “This,” he answered, “is the ANGEL OF LUXURY AND DECEIT: he WEARS OUT THE SOULS OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD, and PERVERTS THEM FROM THE TRUTH, deceiving them with wicked desires, through which they will perish; for they forget the commandments of the living God, and WALK IN DECEITS AND EMPTY LUXURIES; and THEY ARE RUINED BY THE ANGEL, SOME BEING BROUGHT TO DEATH, OTHERS TO CORRUPTION:” I said to him, “Sir, I do not know the meaning of these words, ‘to death, and to corruption.'” “Listen,” he said. “The sheep which you saw merry and leaping about, are those which have TORN THEMSELVES AWAY FROM GOD FOR EVER, and HAVE DELIVERED THEMSELVES OVER TO LUXURIES AND DECEITS [of this world. Among THEM THERE IS NO RETURN TO LIFE THROUGH REPENTANCE, because they have added to their other sins, and BLASPHEMED THE NAME OF THE LORD. Such men therefore, are appointed unto death. And the sheep which you saw not leaping, but feeding in one place, are they who have delivered themselves over to luxury and deceit], but have committed NO BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE LORD. These have been PERVERTED FROM THE TRUTH: AMONG THEM THERE IS THE HOPE OF REPENTANCE, by which it is possible to live. Corruption, then, has a hope of a kind of renewal, but DEATH HAS EVERLASTING RUIN.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Sixth Similitude, Chapter II)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

This could explain why the Judgment Day Verses are all about the Charity Doctrine only in regards to what we did when another was ‘… Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ (in Matthew 25:31 – 46) as the “Will of the Father” as Described in these quoted Bible Verses and Shepherd of Hermas quotes too who are ‘rejected for Lawlessness in this aspect too’ though they converted “Many” via “Prophesying, ‘Casting out Demons’ and Miracles” as Matthew 7:20 – 24 Warned.

 

“… 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:21, NKJV)

 

1. The ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ is Described as follows

 

“… Have a care, then, ye who serve the Lord, and have Him in your heart, that ye work the works of God, remembering His commandments and promises which He promised, and believe that He will bring them to pass if His commandments be observed. INSTEAD OF LANDS, THEREFORE, BUY AFFLICTED SOULS, ACCORDING AS EACH ONE IS ABLE, AND VISIT S WIDOWS AND ORPHANS, AND DO NOT OVERLOOK THEM; AND SPEND YOUR WEALTH AND ALL YOUR PREPARATIONS,  which ye RECEIVED FROM THE LORD, UPON SUCH LANDS AND HOUSES.  For to this end did the Master make you rich, that YOU MIGHT PERFORM THESE SERVICES UNTO HIM; and it is much better to purchase such lands, and possessions, and houses, as you will find in your own city, when you come to reside in it. This is a noble and sacred expenditure, attended neither with sorrow nor fear, but with joy. Do not practise the expenditure of the heathen, for it is injurious to you who are the servants of God; but practise an expenditure of your own, in which ye can rejoice; and do not corrupt nor touch what is another’s nor covet it, for it is an evil thing to covet the goods of other men; BUT WORK THINE OWN WORK, AND THOU WILT BE SAVED.” …” (Third Book: Similitudes, First Similitude)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

1. “Book of Life” or “Books of the Living” Contains the Names of those who ‘Practice the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’

 

“…  And the rich man, in like manner, unhesitatingly bestows upon the poor man the riches which he received from the Lord. And this is a great work, and acceptable before God, because he understands the object of his wealth, and has given to the poor of the gifts of the Lord, and rightly discharged his service to Him. Among men, however, the elm appears not to produce fruit, and they do not know nor understand that if a drought come, the elm, which contains water, nourishes the vine l and the vine, having an unfailing supply of water, yields double fruit both for itself and for the elm. So also poor men interceding with the Lord on behalf of the rich, increase their riches; and the rich, again, AIDING the POOR in THEIR NECESSITIES, SATISFY THEIR SOULS. Both, therefore, are partners in the righteous work. He who does these things shall not be deserted by God, but shall be enrolled in the BOOKS of the LIVING. Blessed are they who have riches, and who understand that they are from the Lord. [For they who are of that mind will be able to do some good.]” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Second Similitude)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

4. The Bishops of the Church themselves are not exempt from this Charity Doctrine

 

“… 27[104]:2 bishops, hospitable persons, who gladly received into their houses at all times the servants of God without hypocrisy. [These bishops] at all times without ceasing sheltered the needy and the widows in their ministration and conducted themselves in purity at all times. 27[104]:3 These [all] then shall be sheltered by the Lord for ever. They therefore that have done these things are glorious in the sight of God, and their place is even now with the angels, if they shall continue unto the end serving the Lord. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9)

 

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

Some of these “Church Fathers” who viewed the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture (e.g. St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Origen of Alexandria or Tertullian) and those who approved it as Authentic (e.g. St. Athanasius the Great) are listed among the First Protestant Fathers’ Ancient Book of Concord (meaning if they can believe such and be saved, so can others who follow likewise where we are being safe by considering it as a “possibility”), example quote:

 

“… The Lutheran Church did not start in the 1500s, but is the continuation of the one catholic (universal) Church, including everyone who taught and believed the one catholic faith. In The Book of Concord, the Early Church fathers are referenced and quoted in every confessional document (except the Small Catechism). Here are all the ones mentioned: … Justin Martyr, IRENAEUS, and TERTULLIAN from the second century. ORIGEN, Cyprian, Anthony of Egypt, ATHANASIUS, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Hilary of Poitiers, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, and Leo I covered the third, fourth, and fifth centuries .Gregory I, Bede, and John of Damascus from the sixth, seventh, and eighth centuries. These men taught and wrote throughout  . … The Christian faith did not originate with us. The Christian faith is handed on from one generation of saints to the next, as each generation holds to Scripture. There is so much we can learn from the faithful teachers of the ancient Church, for we are all part of the same catholic Church. They should not be strangers to us. If we are truly Lutheran, then they are truly our fathers. …”

Source:  https://lutheranreformation.org/history/lutherans-early-church-fathers/

Yes, some of the Church Fathers quoted here are also on the list of the ‘First Protestant Father’s’ of ‘Lutheran Fathers’ who quote them on parts which they agree in the ‘Book of Concord’ which may be seen in link below (example):

https://bookofconcord.org/sources-and-context/catalog-of-testimonies/

 

Perhaps maybe that’s why Sadhu Sundar Singh’s Christian vision seem to point to such an occurrence in the Spirit World to some (1 Peter 4:6 too can mean this), to quote:

1. a) Relatively Good Atheists – an Atheist with a Reasonably Good Moral Life may be Saved in the Spirit World even now

“… DEATH OF A PHILOSOPHER … The soul of a German philosopher entered into the world of spirits and saw from afar the incomparable glory of the spiritual world, and the boundless happiness of its people. He was delighted with what he saw, but his stubborn intellectualism stood in the way of his entering into it, and enjoying its happiness. Instead of admitting that it was real, he argued thus with himself, “There is no doubt at all that I see all this, but what proof is there that it has objective existence, and is not some illusion conjured up by my mind? From end to end of all this scene I will apply the tests of logic, philosophy and science, and then only will I be convinced that it has a reality of its own, and is no illusion.” … . I asked one of the angels what the end of this man would be, and he replied “If this man’s life had been altogether bad, then he would at once have joined the spirits of darkness, but he is not without a moral sense, so for a very long time he will wander blindly round in the dim light of the lower parts of the intermediate state, and keep on bumping his philosophical head, until tired of his foolishness, he repents. Then he will be ready to receive the necessary instruction from the angels appointed for that purpose, and, when instructed, will he be fit to enter into the fuller light of God in the higher sphere…” – Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh

Source [Translated by Rev. T. E. Riddle of the New Zealand Presbyterian Mission, Kharar, Punjab, from Urdu into English, c. 1926]:

https://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

 

1. b) Relatively Good Non-Christians

A sincerely wrong non-Christian Idolater who has a reasonably sound moral compass may have a chance in the Spirit World even now too if he doesn’t hold too strongly to his false beliefs, to quote:

 

“… THE MANIFESTATION OF CHRIST … I saw in a vision the spirit of an idolater on reaching the world of spirits begin at once to search for his god. Then the saints said to him, “There is no god here save the One True God, and Christ, who is His manifestation.” At this, the man was a good deal astonished, but being a sincere seeker after truth, he frankly admitted that he had been in error. He eagerly sought to know the correct view of truth, and asked if he might see the Christ. Shortly after this Christ manifested Himself in a dim light to him, and to others who had newly arrived in the world of spirits, because at this stage they could not have endured a full exhibition of His glory, for His glory is so surpassing that even the angels look on Him with difficulty, and cover their faces with their wings (Isaiah 6:9). When He does reveal Himself to any one He takes into account the particular stage of progress to which that soul has attained, so He appears dimly, or in the fuller light of His glory, that the sight of Him may be endured. So, when these spirits saw Christ in this dim but attractive light, they were filled with a joy and peace, which is beyond our power to describe. Bathed in the rays of His life-giving light, and with the waves of His love, which constantly flow out from Him, flowing over them, all their error was washed away. Then with all their hearts, they acknowledged Him as the Truth, and found healing, and, bowing in lowly adoration before Him, thanked and praised Him. And the saints, who had been appointed for their instruction; also rejoiced over them. …” – Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh

Source [Translated by Rev. T. E. Riddle of the New Zealand Presbyterian Mission, Kharar, Punjab, from Urdu into English, c. 1926]:

https://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

 

Now, here is a mysterious quote by St. Irenaeous of Lyons clearly using the words “Church” and “All men” distinctly:

“… And undoubtedly the preaching of the Church is true and stedfast, in which one and the same way of salvation is shown throughout the whole world. For to her is entrusted the light of God; and therefore the “wisdom” of God, by means of which she SAVES ALL MEN, “is declared in [its] going forth; it uttereth [its voice] faithfully in the streets, is preached on the tops of the walls, and speaks continually in the gates of the city.” For the Church preaches the truth everywhere, and she is the seven-branched candlestick which bears the light of Christ…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book V)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

Questions to Ponder:

Is St. Irenaeous declaring that God Will “SAVE ALL MEN” in some way (perhaps some in the spirit-state only) or is he calling “the church” as “all men” in the above?

If the latter is true, why not he just write “SAVE the CHURCH” or “SAVES its MEMBERS” or “SAVES Believers” or equivalent instead of “SAVE ALL MEN” in the above?

 

 

St. Augustine of Hippo himself affirms that we may contemplate such a possibility described above as “not Denying Holy Scripture” (and hence we are not heretics) even though he believed in Eternal Hell for the Wicked, to quote:

 

“… “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. …” — St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.)

 

Source: https://www.mercyuponall.org/tag/church-fathers/

 

or

 

“… Yet even in his wrath–his wrath resting on them–he does not “shut up his mercy.” This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. … Now, if this wrath were all there is in man’s damnation, and even if it were present only in the slightest degree conceivable–still, to be lost out of the Kingdom of God, to be an exile from the City of God, to be estranged from the life of God, to suffer loss of the great abundance of God’s blessings which he has hidden for those who fear him and prepared for those who hope in him240 –this would be a punishment so great that, if it be eternal, no torments that we know could be compared to it, no matter how many ages they continued. …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Points 112 – 113, CHAPTER XXIX. “The Last Things”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion with the Epistle of Barnabas

 

1. i) History

 

“… The Epistle of Barnabas (Greek: Βαρνάβα Ἐπιστολή) is a Greek epistle written between AD 70 and 132. The complete text is preserved in the 4th-century Codex Sinaiticus, where it appears immediately after the New Testament and before the Shepherd of Hermas. For several centuries it was one of the “antilegomena” writings that some Christians looked on as sacred scripture, while others excluded them. Eusebius of Caesarea classified it as such. It is mentioned in a perhaps third-century list in the sixth-century Codex Claromontanus and in the later Stichometry of Nicephorus appended to the ninth-century Chronography of Nikephoros I of Constantinople. Some early Fathers of the Church ascribed it to the Barnabas who is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, but it is now generally attributed to an otherwise unknown early Christian teacher, perhaps of the same name. It is distinct from the Gospel of Barnabas. …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Barnabas

 

Note: Regardless of whether this Epistle of Barnabas was Written by the Barnabas of the Bible, did you know that “Barnabas of the Bible” is the only one apart from the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, Matthias (the replacement of Judas) and Apostle St. Paul who is mentioned “by name” as an “Apostle”? Here is that Mysterious Verse:

 

“… But when the APOSTLES BARNABAS and PAUL heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out …” (Acts of the Apostles 14:14, NKJV)

 

1. ii) Hell Quote

 

 

“… Of the WAY OF DARKNESS, that is, WHAT KIND OF PERSONS WILL FOREVER BE CAST OUT OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the WAY OF DARKNESS is CROOKED and full of CURSING. For it is the WAY OF ETERNAL DEATH, WITH PUNISHMENT, in which those that walk WILL MEET THOSE THINGS THAT DESTROY THEIR OWN SOULS. Such are: idolatry, confidence, pride of power, hypocrisy, double-mindedness, adultery, murder, pillage, pride, transgression, deceit, malice, arrogance, witchcraft, covetousness, and the lack of the fear of God…” – Epistle of Barnabas, Perhaps the St. Barnabas who walked with the Blessed Apostle Paul as St. Clement of Alexandria points (Chapter 15:Verses 1, 2)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/info/barnabas-general.html

iii) Discussion

 

The phrase “…  WHAT KIND OF PERSONS WILL FOREVER BE CAST OUT OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD …” points to the wicked unable to see nor enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3 – 5) because their body and soul have been destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Matthew 10:28) as this phrase can mean that “… . For it is the WAY OF ETERNAL DEATH, WITH PUNISHMENT …” since the “Eternal” part here is clearly specified to refer to “… in which those that walk WILL MEET THOSE THINGS THAT DESTROY THEIR OWN SOULS. …” where this ‘Eternal Death of the Soul’ seem to be pointed strongly here agreeing to the “Body + Soul” destroyed in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28) where only the dead body/carcass with no consciousness remains burning forever (Isaiah 66:24) where ‘their spirit’ may be saved in spirit-state if God Wills thereafter (1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:4 – 6) as the analogy of the past in Hades in 1 Peter 3:17 – 18 seems to show that such a thing is “possible” toward those “formerly disobedient” of the past (meaning they’re not disobedient anymore) due to that sentence in “prison” for “those spirits” in the Spirit World to whom Christ Preached & possibly Converted them when He Died.

 

1. iv) Charity Doctrine in the Epistle of Barnabas to share what we own with believers

 

“… Barnabas 19:8

Thou shalt MAKE THY NEIGHBOUR PARTAKE IN ALL THINGS, and SHALT NOT SAY THAT ANYTHING IS THY OWN  For if ye are fellow partakers in that

which is imperishable, how much rather shall ye be in the things

which are perishable. Thou shalt not be hasty with thine own tongue,

for the mouth is the snare of death. So far as thou art able, thou

shalt be pure for thy soul’s sake. ..” – Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 19, Verse 8)

Source:

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lightfoot.html

 

 

 

 

 

1. v) Other Doctrines in the Epistle of Barnabas

 

1. i) Charity Doctrine by Giving/Sharing what we have via our money/work as a Ransom for our sins referring to the removal of ‘Judgment of Sins’ in the Context of “Judgment Day”

 

“… Barnabas 19:10

Thou shalt REMEMBER THE DAY OF JUDGMENT night and day, and thou

shalt seek out day by day the persons of the saints, either laboring  by word and going to exhort them and meditating how thou mayest savesouls by thy word,

or THOU SHALT WORK WITH THY HANDS FOR  A RANSOM FOR THY SINS. …” – Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 19, Verse 10)

 

Source:   http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lightfoot.html

 

1. ii) Nor Living the Charity Doctrine and Living in Prosperity Lifestyle risks a Person to Hell

 

“… Barnabas 20:2 persecutors of good men, hating the truth, loving lies, not perceiving the reward of righteousness, not cleaving to the good nor to the righteous judgment, PAYING NO HEED TO THE WIDOW and THE ORPHAN, wakeful not for the fear of God but for that which is evil; men from whom gentleness and forbearance stand aloof and far off;

LOVING VAIN THINGS, pursuing a recompense, NOT PITYING THE POOR MAN, NOT TOILING FOR HIM THAT IS OPPRESSED WITH TOIL, ready to slander, not recognizing Him that made them murderers of children, corrupters of the creatures of God, TURNING AWAY FOM HIM THAT IS IN WANT, OPPRESSING HIM THAT IS AFFLICTED,  ADVOCATES OF THE WEALTHY, UNJUST JUDGES OF THE POOR,  sinful in all things.  Barnabas 21:1

It is good therefore to learn the ordinances of the Lord, as many as

have been written above, and to walk in them. For HE THAT DOETH THESE THINGS SHALL BE GLORIFIED IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD;  whereas he that

CHOOSETH THEIR OPPOSITES SHALL PERISH TOGETHER WITH HIS WORKS. For

this cause is the resurrection, for this the recompense. …”  – Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 20:2, 21:1 Consecutive Verses with nothing skipped in between)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-lightfoot.html

 

Summary of a Possibility:

 

What if Eternal Hell is true because the unquenchable and eternal fire first burns those sinful ones but eventually burns only the dead bodies/carcass eventually (Isaiah 66:24) with no consciousness as the spirit has been saved as the meaning of the ‘smoke of their torment’ rises for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11) where Annihilation is true because the Body and Soul is Destroyed eternally in the Lake of Fire (Matthew 10:28) for the Wicked by then and Universalism is true since they only live in the spirit-state upon being saved (1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:4 – 6, 1 Peter 3:17 – 18) where without a body and without a soul they continue living in the spirit world and are unable to participate (i.e. they cannot see nor enter) into the Kingdom of Heaven’s New Earth and New Heavens having not being born again (missing their souls and bodies respectively) . The Apostolic Fathers quotes in this Book does not Contradict that but can be understood to mean that way too. However, whatever the True Meaning is accurately as God Reveals it One Day, we accept it heartily.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

Appendix I: Did the Apostolic Fathers call any human being “Blessed”?

Regarding the “Blessed” Title and “fathers of the church” context usage, please consider:

1. I) Blessed

Blessed Mystery – Can we call someone “Blessed”?

Question 1

Why do you always refer to Jesus, the apostles, or the early church ‘fathers’ as “Most Blessed…”? Does using these unscriptural terms make theme something else other than who they were, or does it make you appear more reverent or respectful? Just asking.

Reply 1

Christ even taught to “bless those who curse you” (Luke 6:28), so it’s my personal choice to call them blessed because they’re blessed by God in many ways. That’s how I respect them. Similar to how some people address their leaders as pastors or other titles but I prefer to use the title “Blessed” because it emphasizes that “God Blessed them”.

Question 2

I thought that to bless someone was to wish them well and not evil. I did not think that it was to call them blessed.

Reply 2

It can mean both to me as in Matthew 5, Christ Utters a whole range of “Blessed are you… ” statements. I think mine as equivalent except that Christ’s one is ‘general’ while mine is specific to the people I intend.

Question 3

Don’t wish to sound contentious, but Christ did not say “blessed” but “HAPPY” are you, etc.” Thanks for your quick reply.

Reply 3

Christ Used the Word “Blessed”. Let me ask you this: In the New Testament, does the word “Blessed” exist?

Matthew 5 uses blessed as most translations render:

https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-9.htm

Can you point to me a Verse where you agree that the Word “Blessed” is used?

Even if it means “happy”, then take it as that as I’m using the ‘same English translation’ called ‘blessed’ for ‘Christ’s Usage’.

Question 4

I mostly use the Concordant Literal New Testament, and verify some words with the Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, and they both use “Happy”. The King James uses “Blessed”, as do some other translations. The Concordant has been proved to be fairly accurate, but I know that no translation has 100% accuracy.

Reply 4

If you feel the Concordant Literal New Testament is the most accurate, please go ahead. Using “happy” or “blessed” but both referring to the same Word Christ used is what matters just like we call Him “Jesus” but his real name is “Yeshua” (in the Originals) and so referring to the right Verse matters more than the poorly matched English words. Truth is, the Greek Word used in Matthew 5 means ‘both happy & blessed’ as the English words mean. The problem is that English does not have one single word to encompass both meaning as Greek does.

In fact the word “happy” is more accurately “chairei” (Matthew 18:13 clearly implies this meaning when the lost sheep is found) while the word “Blessed” (including being happy, Favoured of God & in Peace etc.) matches Matthew 5’s “Makarioi” Word in Koine Greek.

Some scholars will point to you that Matthew 5’s “Makarioi” cannot refer to “happy” as the Concordant Literal New Testament Scholars claim simply because it contradicts the meaning in these Verses:

“Blessed [Makarioi] are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.” (Matthew 5:4, NKJV)

Why? a person who is mourning cannot be “happy” as the ‘Blessed [Makarioi]’ are mentioned whilst they are going through that which is a direct contradiction.

Also, please consider:

“11Blessed [Makarioi] are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice [chairete] and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Matthew 5:11 – 12, NKJV)

Please notice carefully in Verses above where Christ Himself Uses both Blessed [Makarioi] and Rejoice [chairete] in two consecutive Verses above meaning that these are ‘different meanings’ or may have some overlap in meaning but must have difference in meaning too. Since Happy = Rejoice, the Concordant Translation would be less accurate as it does not show any difference in meaning as intended.

Furthermore, no one is ‘happy’ when ‘persecuted’ which again contradicts the concordant translation claim if they translated it as ‘happy’ for this same Greek Word [Makarioi] throughout to maintain consistency. The element of being ‘happy’ or to Rejoice [chairete] in the next Verse above relates to ‘the reward in heaven later’ and not while they are on earth. So, “Blessed” is still the best translation by Christ’s Own usage in Matthew 5 itself.

Conclusion – FAQ on the Word “Blessed”

1) Has anyone in the Bible used it by calling or pronouncing it on another human being?

Yes, Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) used it on Virgin Mary (the mother of Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ), Verses:

“Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” (Luke 1:42, NKJV)

2) Even the Angel did not find it wrong to call Virgin Mary as “Blessed”

” 27to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!” (Luke 1:27 – 28, NKJV)

3) Old Testament Example – a woman was called “Blessed” for her  kindness of giving milk when asked only for water to kill an ungodly man

“24“Most blessed among women is Jael,
The wife of Heber the Kenite;
Blessed is she among women in tents.
25He asked for water, she gave milk;
She brought out cream in a lordly bowl.” (Judges 5:24 – 25, NKJV)

4) The Title “Most Blessed” for “Lord Jesus Christ”

Psalm 21 is often understood as a ‘Messianic Psalm’ and this Verse below in particular highlights the Messiah (or Lord Jesus Christ) as “Most Blessed” (Can you see it?)

“6For You have made him most blessed forever; You have made him [a]exceedingly glad with Your presence.” (Psalm 21:6, NKJV)

5) Can the word “Blessed” be used on anyone other than ‘Virgin Mary’?

Yes, according to Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, it can be used toward ‘anyone who hears & keeps (obeys)’ the ‘Word of God’ Verses:

“27And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27 – 28, NKJV)

6) Can the word “Blessed” be used for someone who has been dead or living only?

The Bible Verses below clearly indicates that (Virgin) Mary will be called “Blessed” in “all generations” to come meaning that some people who call her “blessed” will do so only after she has died/translated, so even this is entirely Biblical:

“46And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, 47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. 48For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.” (Luke 1:46 – 48, NKJV)

7) Who can be called “Blessed”?

Christ allows those who practice any one or more of these to be called “Blessed”:

“3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are those who mourn,

for they will be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek,

for they will inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they will be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful,

for they will be shown mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart,

for they will see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they will be called children of God.

10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” (Matthew 5:3 – 12, NKJV)

So, what I did is entirely “Biblical” and is ‘allowed’ according to these ‘Bible Verses’.

 

Who in First Christianity understood it likewise and used the title “Blessed” upon those living and dead at the time when they wrote it?

 

i.St. Ignatius of Antioch uses the title Blessed for St. Polycarp

1) Polycarp, Most Blessed in God

“… It is fitting, O POLYCARP, MOST BLESSED IN GOD, to assemble a very solemn council, and to elect one whom you greatly love, and know to be a man of activity, who may be designated the messenger of God; and to bestow on him this honour that he may go into Syria, and glorify your ever active love to the praise of Christ. A Christian has not power over himself, but must always be ready for s the service of God. Now, this work is both God’s and yours, when ye shall have completed it to His glory. For I trust that, through grace, ye are PREPARED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK pertaining to God. Knowing, therefore, your energetic love of the truth, I have exhorted you by this brief Epistle. …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to Popycarp, CHAPTER VII)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-polycarp-roberts.html

Who is Polycarp?

Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD).

2) Blessed Bishop (unnamed)

“… As to our fellow-servant Burrhus, your deacon in regard to God and blessed in all things, I pray that he may continue blameless for the honour of the Church, and of your MOST BLESSED BISHOP. …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Chapter II, Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-longer.html

Conclusion – Who is “Blessed”?

“… Let us make them brethren by our kindness. For say ye to those that hate you, Ye are our brethren, that the name of the Lord may be glorified. And let us imitate the Lord, “who, when He was reviled, reviled not again ; ” when He was crucified, He answered not; “when He suffered, He threatened not ; “but prayed for His enemies, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.” If any one, the more he is injured, displays the more patience, BLESSED IS HE. If any one is defrauded, if any one is despised, for the name of the Lord, he truly is the servant of Christ. Take heed that no plant of the devil be found among you, for such a plant is bitter and salt. “Watch ye, and be ye sober,” in Christ Jesus. …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Chapter X, Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-longer.html

 

ii.St. Polycarp uses the Title “Blessed” on Apostle St. Paul

“… These things, brethren, I write to you CONCERNING RIGHTEOUSNESS, not because I take anything upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For NEITHER I, NOR ANY OTHER SUCH ONE, CAN COME UP TO THE WISDOM” OF THE BLESSED AND GLORIFIED PAUL. He, when among you, ACCURATELY and STEDFASTLY TAUGHT THE WORD OF TRUTH in the presence of those who were then alive. And when absent from you, he WROTE YOU A LETTER, which, IF YOU CAREFULLY STUDY, YOU WILL FIND TO BE THE MEANS of BUILDING YOU UP IN THAT FAITH which has been given you, and which, being followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, “is the mother of us all.” For if any one be inwardly possessed of these graces, he hath FULFILLED THE COMMAND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, since he that hath love is far from all sin. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, Chapter III, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

St. Polycarp himself approves the usage of the title “Blessed” (e.g. “Blessed St. Paul”) as he calls Apostle Paul as follows, to quote from the above:

“… For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom” of the BLESSED AND GLORIFIED PAUL. …” – St. Polycarp

 

iii.St. Clement of Rome uses the Title “Blessed” to Prophet Moses, Apostle St. Paul and Judith

1) Blessed Moses .

“… And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those [ministers] before mentioned, when the BLESSED MOSES also, “a faithful servant in all his house,” noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them [together], and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 42)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

2) Blessed Apostle Paul

“… Take up the epistle of the BLESSED APOSTLE PAUL. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you. But that inclination for one above another entailed less guilt upon you, inasmuch as your partialities were then shown towards apostles, already of high reputation, and towards a man whom they had approved. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 47)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

Note: Blessed St. Clement of Rome himself clearly writes that Blessed Apostle St. Paul’s Epistles/Letters are Inspired of God (hence Scripture) and are to be obeyed.

3) Blessed Judith (Blessed Title to women of faith who provided food for others & other good works)

“… Many, too, have surrendered themselves to slavery, that with the price which they received for themselves, they might provide food for others. Many women also, being strengthened by the grace of God, have performed numerous manly exploits. The BLESSED JUDITH, when her city was besieged, asked of the elders permission to go forth into the camp of the strangers; and, exposing herself to danger, she went out for the love which she bare to her country and people then besieged; and the Lord delivered Holofernes into the hands of a woman. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 55)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

Conclusion – Example of those who will be Blessed

“… BLESSED ARE WE, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. For it is written, “BLESSED are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. BLESSED is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile.” THIS BLESSEDNESS comes upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Chapter 50)

Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

iv.St. Irenaeous of Lyons calls St. Polycarp as “Blessed Polycarp”

St. Irenaeous of Lyons calls Polycarp (the direct Disciple of Apostle St. John) with the title “Blessed” as “Blessed Polycarp” and so it’s a First Christianity Practice to identify the earliest Church Leaders as men who are “Blessed” by God to inherit the Kingdom, to quote:

“… These opinions, Florinus, that I may speak in mild terms, are not of sound doctrine; these opinions are not consonant to the Church, and involve their votaries in the utmost impiety; these opinions, even the heretics beyond the Church’s pale have never ventured to broach; these opinions, those presbyters who preceded us, and who were conversant with the apostles, did not hand down to thee. For, while I was yet a boy, I saw thee in Lower Asia with Polycarp, distinguishing thyself in the royal court, and endeavouring to gain his approbation. For I have a more vivid recollection of what occurred at that time than of recent events (inasmuch as the experiences of childhood, keeping pace with the growth of the soul, become incorporated with it); so that I can even describe the place where the BLESSED POLYCARP used to sit and discourse–his going out, too, and his coming in–his general mode of life and personal appearance, together with the discourses which he delivered to the people; also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received [information] from the eye-witnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. These things, through, God’s mercy which was upon me, I then listened to attentively, and treasured them up not on paper, but in my heart; and I am continually, by God’s grace, revolving these things accurately in my mind. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Fragment II, FRAGMENTS FROM THE LOST WRITINGS OF IRENAEUS)

Translation Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-fragments.html

Please notice the phrase “BLESSED POLYCARP” in quote above carefully proving such a tradition.

 

1. II) Fathers

Titles: God is the Only Father and Teacher – none else.  Christ Said call no man on earth a father:

“… 9Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:9 – 10, NKJV)

The irony is that some of the Christians who forbid the usage of the word father at all in any context also call their pastors or Bible School Lecturers as “Bible Teachers/Lecturers” which is forbidden together in the same context of Matthew 23:10 as the word “Teacher” is also forbidden in the religious title context if those Verses are upheld sincerely in that way. Can you see it? (Note: Lecturer is just another more refined word for a “Teacher”).

What could it mean then? Regarding Christ forbidding the use of the title ‘father’ as a religious title as He Spoke it against the Pharisees, one might use the title father to describe theological lineage as Apostle St. Paul seems to have done in Verses below:

“… But you know his proven character, that as a son with his father he served with me in the gospel. …” (Philippians 2:22, NKJV)

“… I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten while in my chains, …” (Philomen 1:10, NKJV)

The word “fathers” is found in plural in the context of Theological Lineage in Verse below where others are called “instructors in Christ” only:

“… 14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. 15For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not MANY FATHERS: for in CHRIST JESUS I HAVE BEGOTTEN you THROUGH THE GOSPEL. 16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 17For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I TEACH EVERY WHERE IN EVERY CHURCH. …” (1 Corinthians 4:14 – 17, KJV)

Appendix II: Did Roman Catholics/Orthodox Change the Church Fathers’ Writings?

 

I don “not” think they changed it. Please take note that I am “not” a Roman Catholic “nor” Orthodox but a Protestant chiefly because I do “not” pray to Virgin Mary nor the saints nor believe in paying indulgences for sins or equivalent.

 

Example Question 1

Ignatius but not st ignatious some words were inserted by the Romans to suit their doctrines. These case is in the books called the lost books of the bible of which it was prophecied in 600-570bc after christ a Church will arise whose foundation will be the devil and it will hide some books.

 

Reply 1

The Roman Catholics/Orthodox did not change early Church Fathers writings which is especially proven by the “Chiliasm” Doctrine which is the only eschatological position which can be proven by these writings to be held by the direct disciples of the apostles (not ‘other Church Fathers’). This is important because the Roman Church abandoned Chiliasm but yet it preserved the Original writings of these Church Fathers who believed that without changing that even to make them look Roman Catholic (as none of the Church Fathers quoted below believing in Chiliasm even have one prayer to Virgin Mary or equivalent, which proves yet again that no alterations were done):

“… Millennialism was taught by various earlier writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, and Apollinaris of Laodicea in a form now called premillennialism.[9] According to religious scholar Rev. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee,[10] “Justin’s ‘Occasional Chiliasm’ sui generis which was strongly anti-pretribulationistic was followed possibly by Pothinus in A.D. 175 and more probably (around 185) by Irenaeus”. … Melito of Sardis is frequently listed as a second century proponent of premillennialism.[12] The support usually given for the supposition is that “Jerome [Comm. on Ezek. 36] and Gennadius [De Dogm. Eccl., Ch. 52] both affirm that he was a decided millenarian.”[13] In the early third century, Hippolytus of Rome … Around 220, there were some similar influences on Tertullian, although only with very important and extremely optimistic (if not perhaps even postmillennial) modifications and implications. On the other hand, “Christian Chiliastic” ideas were indeed advocated in 240 by Commodian; in 250 by the Egyptian Bishop Nepos in his Refutation of Allegorists; in 260 by the almost unknown Coracion; and in 310 by Lactantius. Into the late fourth century, Bishop Ambrose of Milan had millennial leanings (Ambrose of Milan. Book II. On the Belief in the Resurrection, verse 108). Lactantius is the last great literary defender of chiliasm in the early Christian church. …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

Also Roman Catholics/Orthodox believe in Eternal Hell clearly. So, the fact that they did “not” change St. Ignatius of Antioch’s quote which points either to a ‘broader definition of All Men’ possibly even Christ Centered Universalism is more likely authentic too as someone will only change such writings to fit ‘their doctrine’.

 

So the chances of them changing these writings is very low indeed and if so, even the Bible Manuscripts might have been changed by them.

 

Example Question 2

The lake of fire fully destroys body and soul (Matthew 10:28, Rev 20:14-15). That includes things that were made immortal like angels (Genesis 6).

 

Reply 2

 

As for the Book of 1Enoch quote here (post in link below too together with St. Ignatius’ quote as well) we know that this must be authentic because the “Dead Sea Scrolls discovery” is a 20th century one and the Scrolls prove that even the translated “Ethiopian Version” and “the Greek Fragments” of the preserved ones by these Roman Catholics/Orthodox was correctly preserved without alterations as I have never heard of any scholar pointing out differences in it to prove such an accusation, link:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161344813172784

 

Dead Sea Scrolls Discovery links:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Dead_Sea_Scrolls

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

 

So whether the Lake of Fire fully destroys the body and soul or causes the possible change described in the Book of 1Enoch via ‘Believing after Seeing’, I am “not” sure and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept it.

 

Conclusion – Don’t over Condemn that which the Bible Verses don’t Condemn too strongly either

 

God Knows that Christians will err too but “not” all errors lead to ‘loss of Salvation’. For example please consider the Verses below which Speak of “Worship of Angels” (which is an “Idolatry“) but somehow the Bible Verse below only seems to imply a “loss of reward” and “not Salvation” (and that’s why I point that such equivalent errors of ‘Praying/Worshipping to Mary/Saints’ is wrong likewise but how far God Decides to Judge it, let God Decide), to quote:

 

“… Let NO ONE CHEAT YOU of YOUR REWARD, taking delight in false humility and WORSHIP OF ANGELS, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, …” (Colossians 2:18, NKJV)

 

Please take note that the Verse in Colossians 2:18 does “not” say “loss of Salvation” (for example like Hebrews 10:29) but only a “loss of reward” for “worshipping angels” (a type of “idolatry”) and so they may “not” inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 11) to become “kings and priests” (Revelation 5:10, Revelation 1:6) but may be “saved by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15) or not (as God Shows Mercy on whomever He Wills, Romans 9:15 – 16) being among the least in His Kingdom (Matthew 5:19). Yes those who “worship angels” (or such equivalents whilst being a Christian) are said to be “disconnected” from the “Head of Christ” and may “lose their reward” & since “Salvation is not a Reward” (Ephesians 2:8 – 9), it seems like they can still be saved perhaps by fire case as 1 Corinthians 3:15 explains:

 

“… 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE. …” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

I still believe that God can Save any Christian who errs on these aspects but you risk “losing your greater reward” if you did it as per the Bible Verse above (Matthew 5:19).

 

I am “not” softening any error “nor” over condemning but keeping it to the literal Biblical Verse about it in Context of Colossians 2:18 above especially when an error is done by “Christians” as let “God Decide to show Mercy or Condemn”, while we do it ‘Gently’, Verse:

 

“… 1“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:1 – 2, NKJV)

 

Comments:

Some of you are reading me wrong. I am not defending the Roman Catholic position or beliefs but mentioning only that the writings they preserved could be true since they preserved many things which they don’t believe too but Taught by some Church Fathers.

 

Also the argument that differences in manuscripts of the Bible are very little and no significant difference is pointed by the Dead Sea Scrolls just small copyist omissions like that. The argument of who did the copyist error can work both ways as the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ could have the error instead of the Majority Manuscript for example (which is more likely simply because other Bible Manuscript traditions preserved by others especially the isolated ones such as the Ethiopic tend to match this more).

 

Also, the Manuscripts preserved by the Roman Catholics or Orthodox actually has more words usually and the Dead Sea Scrolls ones could be the ones which have copyist errors simply because the other translations in other languages other than Koine Greek such as Ethiopian or Armenian point. In short, the Dead Sea Scrolls is not the Final Authority and could have copyist errors too.

 

Note: Neither St. Polycarp’s nor St. Clement of Rome’s writings nor any of the other Apostolic Fathers’ Writings have any prayers to Virgin Mary or saints or equivalent.

This itself is a good indicator that the Roman Catholics/Orthodox did “not” tamper with it but preserved it.

 

If praying to Virgin Mary was an essential doctrine for Salvation as say some Roman Catholics/Orthodox claim, then why is it “not” found it one of the ‘Apostolic Fathers’ Writings’ as surely they must have listed out ‘Essential Doctrine’, right?

Appendix III: Alms Delivers from Death – is it Biblical?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161347322957784

 

1) Bible Verse

 

Let’s first ask the equivalent question, does “righteousness deliver from death”? Verse:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/kjv/proverbs/11.htm

 

2) Reason for Doctrine: Why is this important?

 

Because the “Death” from which “Righteousness” is to “Deliver” is “Written” above in the Context of “Day of Wrath” (so “Judgment Day”) and also the next Verse is inserted here (Verse 5 above) to show that it speaks of the ‘human righteousness’ which God Seeks for this as “Christ Himself” Spoke of “your righteousness” distinctly in Matthew 5:19 – 20 for the Condition to “Enter the Kingdom of Heaven and be Least/Greatest accordingly too” which we shall discuss later at the end.

 

Next, please allow me to share some Jewish and Early Christian insights next on how this might be so with Bible Verses too.

 

3) The Jewish word translated as “Righteousness” is frequently or most interchangeably refers to “Alms” which is the ‘Holiest Act a man can do to obey God’ as even this Protestant Bible  Encyclopedia admits, to quote:

 

“… The LATER JEWS often used “RIGHTEOUSNESS” tsedhaqah as MEANING ALMS, that being in THEIR VIEW THE FOREMOST RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Compare our modern use of “charity” to denote almsgiving.) This use is seen in the Talmud and in the frequent translations of the Hebrew word for “righteousness” (tsedhaqah) by “alms” (eleemosune) in the Septuagint, though nothing warranting this is found in the Hebrew Old Testament, or in the true text of the New Testament. This notion of righteousness as alms being well-nigh universal among Jews in Jesus’ day, and spreading even among Christians, accounts for “alms” in Matthew 6:1, where the true text has “righteousness”: “Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them” (the Revised Version (British and American) with Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Bezae, the Latin versions, etc.). The oriental versions which generally read “alms” may be accounted for on the supposition that “alms” was first written on the margin as explaining the supposed meaning of “righteousness,” and then, as according with this accepted oriental idea, was substituted for it in the text by the copyists. …” – International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/topical/a/alms.htm

 

4) Jewish Insights – that’s why in the Book of Tobit or even Sirach or other places we find the equivalent phrase “alms delivers from death”

 

“… A word derived from the Greek ἐλεημοσύνη (mercifulness), used by Greek-speaking Jews to denote almost exclusively the offering of charity to the needy, from a feeling of both compassion and righteousness (ẓedaḳah). (See LXX. on Prov. xxi. 21, and Dan. iv. 24.) The word “almsgiving,” however, is far from expressing the full meaning of the Hebrew ẓedaḳah, which is, charity in the spirit of uprightness or justice. According to the Mosaic conception, wealth is a loan from God, and the poor have a certain claim on the possessions of the rich; while the rich are positively enjoined to share God’s bounties with the poor. A systematic mode of relief of the needy was, therefore, provided by the law and by the institutions of the synagogue (see Charity). But all these provisions could not entirely remove want. “The poor shall never cease out of the land,” says the lawgiver, and commands: “Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land” (Deut. xv. 11). In the course of time the giving of Alms out of mere pity and without regard to the permanent relief of the recipient, became a meritorious practise, possessing, like sacrifice, the power of atoning for man’s sins, and redeeming him from calamity and death. The verse Prov. xi. 4 (compare xvi. 6, xxi. 3) was expounded in this sense: “Water will quench blazing fire; so doth almsgiving make atonement for sins.” “Lay up alms in thy store-house; it shall deliver thee from all affliction” (Ecclus. iii. 30, xxix. 12). …” – Jewish Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1295-alms

 

 

5) Talmud

 

Christians sometimes are careless in their words and do “not” realize that Christ for example Approved this “Almsgiving Concept” in the “Talmud” which was spoken by  Rab Assi of the third century, “almsgiving is equal in value to all other commandments” (B. B. 9a; compare Luke, xv.) Galatians 5:14 too, yes in Luke 10 in the ‘Parable of the Good Samaritan’ as the Answer to the Question “What shall I do to inherit Eternal Life?” which we will discuss at the end.

 

Now, let’s look at some Talmudic quotes which are related to this (as Christ Approved its Concept that this is Equivalent to “Fulfilling all Law” in Luke 10:25 – 37 referring to the Charity Doctrine Acts of Almsgiving as Demonstrated by the Theologically Imperfect Good Samaritan from his ‘own money’ but was ‘missed’ by the theologically better Levite/Priest):

 

“… Accordingly, King Nebuchadnezzar is told by Daniel: “Break off thy sins by righteousness [ẓedaḳah—almsgiving] and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor” (Dan. iv. 27), and both Daniel and the king become models of charity (Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21). (See Altar.) The entire story of Tobit is a lesson on almsgiving and its redeeming powers (Tobit, i. 3, 16; ii. 14; iv. 7-11; xii. 8, 9). “Alms deliver from death and purge away all sin” (compare Prov. xi. 4); whence the custom of giving Alms at funerals (see Ẓedaḳah Box). “Every one who occupies himself with charity shall behold the face of God,” as it is written (Ps. xvii. 15, Heb.): “I behold Thy face by almsgiving” (ẓedeḳ; see Midr. Teh. l.c., B. B. 10a). Almsgiving, prayer, and fasting constituted the three cardinal disciplines which the synagogue transmitted to both the Christian church and the Mohammedan mosque (see Tobit, xii. 8; and compare Matt. vi. 1-18; and the Koran, where almsgiving, called zakat (Aramaic zakuta), or sadaḳa (ẓedaḳah), is always mentioned in connection with prayer (sura ii. 40, 104; ix. 54). The Mandæans, too, made almsgiving (zidka) and fasting the means of obtaining eternal life and bliss (see Brand, “Mandäische Schriften,” pp. 28 et seq.). According to Rab Assi of the third century, “almsgiving is equal in value to all other commandments” (B. B. 9a; compare Luke, xv.): “It saves man from sudden, unnatural death and the soul from doom” (R. Johanan, B. B. 10a, after Prov. x. 2): “Almsgiving is more than any sacrifice, though personal charity is superior even to almsgiving” (R. Eleazar, Suk. 49b). R. Eleazar states also that it should precede prayer, taking Ps. xvii. 15 also to mean, “After almsgiving I shall behold Thy face,” B.B. 10a. Likewise each fast-day was virtually an occasion for almsgiving, as the day’s offerings were handed over to the poor (Ber. 6b). Compare Midr. Zuṭṭa, Cant., ed. Buber, p. 21: “The Israelites fast and give their food and that of their children to the poor”—quoted by Origen, “Homilies to Leviticus,” x. (see also Aristides, xv. 9). …” Jewish Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1295-alms

6) Bible Verses Comparing Clearly that Almsgiving is Greater than Prayer/Fasting too

 

1. i) Blessed Prophet Amos

 

Prophet Amos clearly Declared that Doing “Justice” and “Helping the Poor” must be done first before doing any ‘Church Gathering or Singing Songs to Worship God which God DOES NOT Hear unless these are fulfilled’, Verses:

 

“… 21“I HATE, I despise your feast days, And I do NOT SAVOR your SACRED ASSEMBLIES.

22Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will NOT ACCEPT them, NOR will I regard your fattened peace offerings. 23TAKE AWAY from Me the NOISE of YOUR SONGS, For I will NOT HEAR the MELODY of your STRINGED INSTRUMENTS. 24But let JUSTICE run down like water, And RIGHTEOUSNESS like a mighty stream. …” (Amos 5:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

Next, What “justice” and “righteousness” is God Referring to in Verses above, political parties & their rich men or hidden racist agendas? Nope.

 

Only JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUSNESS to the POOR is Written in these Consecutive Verses prior (“Context”) – yes, on Judgment Day itself Christ is only interested with how we treat the poor (Matthew 25:31-46’s When I was hungry, thirsty, naked…):

 

“… 10They HATE the one who REBUKES in the gate,

And they ABHOR the one who SPEAKS UPRIGHTLY.

11Therefore, BECAUSE YOU TREAD DOWN THE POOR

And take grain taxes from him, Though you have built houses of hewn stone,

Yet you shall not dwell in them; You have planted pleasant vineyards,

But you shall not drink wine from them.

12For I know YOUR MANIFOLD TRANSGRESSIONS

And YOUR MIGHTY SINS:

AFFLICTING THE JUST and TAKING BRIBES;

DIVERTING THE POOR FROM JUSTICE at the gate. …” (Amos 5:10 – 12, NKJV)

1. ii) Blessed Prophet Isaiah

 

Prophet Isaiah makes it more clear that God only Answers Prayer/Fasting according to how much the ‘Charity Doctrine is Lived’ in ‘sharing the Bread with the Hungry, etc.’, Verses:

 

The Question

 

“… ‘Why have WE FASTED,’ they say, ‘and YOU HAVE NOT SEEN? Why have WE AFFLICTED OUR SOULS, and YOU TAKE NO NOTICE?’ …” (Isaiah 58:3, NKJV)

 

Part of the Answer (God’s Reply):

 

“… 7Is it not to SHARE YOUR BREAD with the HUNGRY,

And that you bring to your house THE POOR who are cast out;

When you see THE NAKED, that you cover him,

And not hide yourself from YOUR OWN FLESH?

8Then YOUR LIGHT shall break forth like the MORNING,

YOUR HEALING shall spring forth speedily,

And your righteousness shall go before you;

The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.

9Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;

You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’ …” (Isaiah 58:7 – 9, NKJV)

 

iii) The KING, Lord Jesus Christ

 

A lot of Christians think that they’re “doing Justice” when ‘they talk empty politics to save their race/family or to make more money actually’ (without realizing that they benefit from unwritten economic advantages from racism often without despising those). That’s “not the Justice and Righteousness” God was Speaking about. Similarly, the “tithing Churches” think that they’re ‘doing the work of God in Justice by collecting tithes money and feeding their clergy’. Again, this is NOT the JUSTICE and LOVE of GOD which God Requires simply because these are ‘acts which benefit yourselves for your own survival’.

How do I know? Verses below (no opinions of mere men):

 

“… 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. 42“But woe to you Pharisees!  For YOU TITHE mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.   …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:41 – 42, NKJV)

 

Note: Christ clearly Equates “Alms” = “Charity” = “JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD” which these Pharisees ‘skipped’ but did practice ‘tithing’. If ‘tithing’ was part of “JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD”, then Christ would have congratulated the Pharisees because they were ‘perfect in obedience in tithing’ as Christ’s Phrase “… For YOU TITHE mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD means in full. Yes, please notice carefully that the Pharisees’ perfect ‘tithe paying’ did “… PASS BY JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD …” (meaning the tithing did NOT fulfil the ‘Justice and Love of God’ part) which in these Verses ONLY REFERS to the ALMSGIVING/CHARITY LIFESTYLE so clearly ‘as it is Written’ and best is, it is by CHRIST HIMSELF.

 

Note: There is an ‘illusion’ of Charity or Charity of little value (let God Judge) where if done, it brings us in return ‘financial returns of equivalent for doing so’ or ‘charity done with other people’s money’. This point is clear in Christ’s Phrase “… SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; …” in “… “… 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. …”. Yes the phrase “… SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; …” puts the ‘Relative Measure’ aspect (e.g. the ‘Poor Widow’, Luke 21:1 – 4) and points to clearly “Giving/Sharing to Charity/Alms” (i.e. toward anyone in need) from ”what we have” (not from what others give us or with other people’s money) where facilitation is good but not of high value. Example question: If by doing Charity with other people’s money we receive ‘blessing money’ or equivalent and we become ‘rich’ but never gave much from ‘our own money’, then this aspect is not fulfilled much either and is what the Pharisees were doing likewise which the LORD CORRECTED by Teaching them this too clearly here for ‘Inward Cleansing’.

 

Any contenders to speak against His Words here? So unless a Church Practices “ALMS” (Charity Doctrine) it has PASSED BY the JUSTICE and LOVE OF GOD part as LORD JESUS CHRIST finally clarified in detail what Prophet Amos and Prophet Isaiah was hinting earlier by “justice”. Indeed, “True Justice” is “Mercy & Compassion” which in ‘Action’ is the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ agreeing to all these, Verse:

 

“… Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute TRUE JUDGMENT, and SHEW MERCY and COMPASSIONS every man to his brother: 10And OPPRRESS NOT THE WIDOW, NOR THE FATHERLESS, THE STRANGER, NOR THE POOR; and let none of you IMAGINE EVIL AGAINST his brother in your heart. 11But they REFUSED TO HEARKEN, and pulled away the shoulder, and STOPPED THEIR EARS, that THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR. 12Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets. Thus GREAT WRATH CAME FROM THE LORD OF HOSTS. 13Therefore it happened, that just as HE PROCLAIMED AND THEY WOULD NOT HEAR, SO THEY CALLED OUT and I WOULD NOT LISTEN,” SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS. 14“But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations which they had not known. Thus THE LAND BECAME DESOLATE after them, so that no one passed through or returned; for they made the pleasant land desolate.” ….” (Zechariah 7:9 – 14, KJV)

 

So, Executing True Judgment is showing MERCY and COMPASSION in ACTION such as the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS of “… 10And OPPRRESS NOT THE WIDOW, NOR THE FATHERLESS, THE STRANGER, NOR THE POOR;  …” meaning we shoot do the opposite which is to help them instead:

 

“… 27PURE AND UNDEFILED RELIGION before GOD AND THE FATHER is this: to VISIT ORPHANS AND WIDOWS in THEIR TROUBLE, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. …” (James 1:27, NKJV)

 

Did you notice these?

 

“Holiness” part of “God’s Pure Religion” = “… and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. …” = the “Virginity” part of the Parable of the 5 Wise and 5 Foolish Virgins in Matthew 25:1 – 13.

 

and

 

“Charity Doctrine Part of God’s Pure Religion” = “…27PURE AND UNDEFILED RELIGION before GOD AND THE FATHER is this: to VISIT ORPHANS AND WIDOWS in THEIR TROUBLE, …” = the “Oil & Lamp” part of the Parable of the 5 Wise and 5 Foolish Virgins in Matthew 25:1 – 13.

 

 

as Blessed Martin Luther too Preaching this same meaning in Essence:

 

“… Therefore, let each one see to it that he has these two together: the OIL, which is TRUE FAITH and trust in Christ; and the LAMPS, the VESSEL, which is the OUTWARD SERVICE TOWARD YOUR NEIGHBOR. The WHOLE CHRISTIAN LIFE CONSISTS in THESE TWO THINGS things: BELIEVE GOD. HELP YOUR NEIGHBOR. The WHOLE GOSPEL TEACHES this. PARENTS should TELL IT TO THEIR CHILDREN at HOME and EVERYWHERE. Children, too, should CONSTANTLY FOSTER THIS WORD AMONG THEMSELVES. I should really say something about the sleep of the virgins and about the setting out of the Bridegroom for the wedding. But the hour is late. Another time. May God be gracious to us! Amen. …”- The First Champion of the Protestant Faith, Blessed Martin Luther’s Sermon (which was translated in 2013 by the Rev. Paul A. Rydecki, On Faith and Good Works, Preached in Erfurt at St. Michaeliskirche on the Day of the 11,000 Virgins (October 21st), 1522)

 

Source: http://www.godwithuslc.org/luther-sermon-for-trinity-27/

 

Please note Martin Luther’s definition of “oil and lamp” as follows from this last quote from him and the Conclusion of the Gospel’s True Faith too:

 

1. Meaning of OIL

 

“… OIL, which is TRUE FAITH and trust in Christ; …” – Martin Luther

 

1. Meaning of LAMP

 

“… and the LAMPS, the VESSEL, which is the OUTWARD SERVICE TOWARD YOUR NEIGHBOR. …” – Martin Luther

 

 

 

 

 

 

7) Church Fathers

 

There are many Church Father’s quote on Almsgiving and its relation to eternal life but I am only going to focus on St. Polycarp’s quote because it’s highly unlikely that a direct disciple of the Apostles can make such a crucial error of quoting this phrase “ALMS DELIEVERS FROM DEATH“, to quote:

 

“… STAND FAST, therefore, in these things, and FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD, being firm and UNCHANGEABLE IN THE FAITH, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]” Be all of you subject one to another? having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,” that YE MAY BOTH RECEIVE PRAISE FOR YOUR GOOD WORKS, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But WOE TO HIM by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, CHAPTER X.–EXHORTATION TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

 

St. Polycarp is quoting the Tobit section below:

 

“…  6 Then he said to them SECRETLY: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. 7 For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. 8 PRAYER IS GOOD WITH FASTING AND ALMS MORE THAN to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For ALMS DELIVERETH from DEATH, and the same is that which PURGETH AWAY SINS, and maketh to FIND MERCY AND LIFE EVERLASTING. … 15 For I am the angel RAPHAEL, one of the seven who stand before the Lord. …” (Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 12:6 – 9, 15)

 

Source: https://biblescripture.net/Tobias.html

Yes, he is this ‘same St. Polycarp’ whom we discussed in earlier link below:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161345925087784

 

I already explained why and how I think these First Christianity Quotes are “not” tampered with by Roman Catholics/Orthodox even when I’m a Protestant in detail in link below and that’s why we continue the discussion next assuming that St. Polycarp’s quote above is authentic:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161346987457784

 

Alternate ‘Possibility’: Could St. Polycarp be quoting Proverbs 11:4 instead of Tobit 12:9 above which generally scholars propose?

How?

 

If “Almsgiving” or “Alms” is generally the meaning assigned to “Righteousness” as per the Jewish Context discussed earlier, then please consider this same Verse with the word “Righteousness” replaced with “Alms” and we get the similar quote by St. Polycarp:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but ALMS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “ALMS” substituted for “Righteousness” instead)

 

This is ‘possible’ as the interchange between the word “righteousness” and “alms” are often done by ‘Jewish Scholars’ likewise as point 3 earlier that:

 

“…  This use is seen in the Talmud and in the frequent translations of the Hebrew word for “righteousness” (tsedhaqah) by “alms” (eleemosune) in the Septuagint, though nothing warranting this is found in the Hebrew Old Testament, or in the true text of the New Testament.  …” – International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/topical/a/alms.htm

Regardless, one thing is clear: St. Polycarp quotes “Alms delivers from Death”. Which “Death”? As the phrase “RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH” (in Proverbs 11:4) refers to the Context of the “DAY of WRATH” to which it is compared, St. Polycarp’s quote also may refer to this same context (if he was quoting Proverbs 11:4) and if he was quoting Tobit 12:9 instead, then it’s still in this same Context of not going to Hell type of Judgment likewise and so it does not matter, just interesting to know.

 

 

8) Proverbs 11:4’s Internal Evidence of the Text

 

Dilemma: Since the Hebrew language has even in the time of Christ used the word “righteousness” to denote “alms” exclusively, how can we be sure that the Verse here is not using the Original Word for “Alms” instead of “Righteousness” instead? I mean the same way the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says that “copyists” error could have made Matthew 6:1’s word for “righteousness” as “alms” in “oriental translations” (referring to Jewish Translations) as discussed in post in link below,

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161335175402784

 

Then the possibility also exists in reverse where we may be looking at the copyist error that Proverbs 11:4 should read “Alms Delivers from Death” (with the assumption St. Polycarp is quoting this Verse) instead of “RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. “. If this is so, please Compare:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV)

 

versus:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but ALMS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “ALMS” substituted for “Righteousness” instead)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which is more likely referred to here?

 

1. Context of Opposite of Righteousness

Did you notice that “RICHES” is compared to as not profiting in the “DAY of WRATH” and its antithesis here is most likely “ALMS” instead of “RIGHTEOUSNESS”, right?

In other words, the opposite of ‘righteousness’ is ‘sinning’ and so if the Verse was written like this, then ‘righteousness would be a best fit’:

“… 4SINNING profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “SINNING” substituted for “RICHES” instead)

However this is not Written.

 

1. Context of Opposite of Riches

If we accept Proverbs 11:4 as it is, then “RICHES” is the ‘opposite’ of ‘RIGHTEOUSNESS’ because it’s compared like that linguistically here where some may add because riches can lead to sin but that’s not meant here by comparison as it must rather mean that riches decreases righteousness or doesn’t profit for righteousness at all.

 

There is another ‘possibility’ where if “Alms” was the “Righteousness” meant here, then the opposite of “Hoarding Riches” is “Almsgiving” and the linguistic part matches perfectly as follows:

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but ALMS DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV with “ALMS” substituted for “Righteousness” instead)

 

That means RICHES condemns you on “Judgment Day” (DAY of WRATH) unless it is used for sharing/giving via ALMS which can DELIEVER you from the Second DEATH Judgment.

 

For me, the internal linguistics and comparison made to riches instead of sin and the Context of Judgment Day quoted seem to point to this Possibility as very strong as even St. Polycarp’s “Alms delivers from Death” quote earlier might support.

 

 

Conclusion – A Biblical Solution via Lord Jesus Christ

 

1) Sermon on the Mount Mystery regarding the definition of “righteousness”

 

The “your righteousness” needed to exceed the Pharisees’ to enter the Kingdom of Heaven to be least/greatest (in Mathew 5:19 – 20) includes the Definition of “Alms” or Charity Doctrine/Almsgiving (Matthew 6:1 – 4), Prayer (Matthew 6:5 – 15) and Fasting (Matthew 6:15 – 18) as was discussed in detail in an earlier post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161335175402784

 

So this means that apart from the definition of being “holy” (Matthew 5) Christ also included specifically these definition of “righteousness” to include “Almsgiving + Prayer + Fasting” and thus in light of this Proverbs 11:4 may be read as follows for the ‘complete meaning’:

 

“… 4RICHES profit not in the DAY of WRATH: but RIGHTEOUSNESS [Being Holy, ALMS, PRAYER and FASTING] DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. 5The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. …” (Proverbs 11:4 – 5, KJV)

 

*[Emphasis Mine throughout]

 

2) If so, why would St. Polycarp exclusively only mention the one particular definition of righteousness i.e. “Alms only” in his quote “Alms delivers from Death”?

 

One possible reason is because he knew and endorsed the Jewish definition that the ‘Holiest Act a human can do by God’s Command which Fulfills All Law too’ is ‘Almsgiving/Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ to ‘Love your neighbour as yourself’ in ‘Action’ (as Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ Approved in Luke 10:25 – 37’s Parable of the Good Samaritan as Answer for “What to do for Eternal Life?” as referring to the ‘Charity Doctrine Acts of Giving/Sharing’ to be delivered from the Second “Death” in the Context of “Day of Wrath” in Proverbs 11:4 earlier too which agrees with this and Apostle St. Paul’s that this type of Love your neighbour in action fulfills all Law in Galatians 5:14).

 

 

3) Judgment Day Verses

 

In the other Judgment Day Verses describing possibly some surprised saved sheep in Matthew 25:31 – 46, likewise they are only congratulated for doing these Charity Doctrine Acts of our response to ‘…  When I was Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ which again may refer to the “Alms which delivers from Death” which St. Polycarp refers to as well. Matthew 25:31 – 46 in light of Proverbs 11:4 earlier too in the Context of “Day of Wrath” may also agree that “Riches” could condemn unless it is shared/given as “Alms” which could be the main/only “righteousness” referred to in this Verse which could be understood as “delivers from [Second] Death” since the “Day of Wrath” Context/Timeline puts this “Death” as referring to “Second Death” Context. Another possible meaning here is that as per Prophet Amos, Prophet Isaiah, or Christ’s quote in Point 6) earlier, these other “righteousness” (of praying/fasting/tithing) etc. are only valued as much as one does ALMS/SHARE to HELP the POOR first which may explain why in Matthew 25:31 – 46, NO other ‘righteous act’ is MENTIONED at all apart from this CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE. “Alms” is the most holiest of all righteousness can also be seen from Christ’s Famous Statement of it “Cleaning All” in Luke 11:39 – 41, Verses:

 

“… 39Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the OUTSIDE OF THE CUP and DISH CLEAN, but YOUR INWARD PART is full of [k]GREED and WICKEDNESS. 40FOOLISH ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. …”  – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:39 – 41, NKJV)

 

Note: Christ didn’t ask these Pharisees to pray more, fast more nor sing more songs and neither does Judgment Day Verses in Matthew 25:31 – 46 congratulate anyone for doing these but “Almsgiving only” proving that “without this Charity Doctrine Lifestyle”, all else may ‘not’ be accepted by God much either as these Quoted Bible Verses Reveal ‘as it is Written’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) Does Alms contradict the Work of Christ?

 

An easy Christianity with “Lawlessness” referring to “not doing RIGHTEOUSNESS” is what MANY will be DECEIVED INTO and be DENIED as He Declares, “I NEVER KNEW YOU!” (Matthew 7:14, 19 – 23 first)  where in Comparison in Matthew 7:24 He compares the Saved Christian as the one ‘Obeying His Commands’ (which we have quoted throughout here too):

 

“… 14Because NARROW is the gate and DIFFIULT is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. …  19Every tree that does NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT is cut down and THROWN INTO THE FIRE. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven. 22MANY will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we NOT PROPHESIED in Your name, CAST OUT DEMONS in Your name, and DONE MANY WONDERS in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’. 24“Therefore WHOEVER HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN who BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:14, 19 – 24, NKJV)

 

This is a very common ‘protestant fallacy’ because the same way they preach that ‘holiness’ does not Contradict the Work of Christ but we are to do it, Almsgiving Doctrine may be understood likewise as CHRIST HIMSELF is the ONE TEACHING IT in MANY OF THESE QUOTED VERSES AS IT IS WRITTEN.

 

In light of Christ’s Quotes we understand that the “Charity Doctrine” removes the “Judgment of Sins”  but it cannot give new life nor give Resurrection. Only the Blood of Christ Can Remove Sin itself and bring us to the Resurrection Life beginning within us on earth itself. So only Christ’s Atonement and Work Gives us Life. The Almsgiving stops the ‘Judgment of Sins’, nothing more as that’s the Context meant in Tobit or elsewhere in Verses quoted here (even in Christ’s Parable of the Rich Man and Beggar Lazarus too which Speaks of this absence of Charity Doctrine leads straight to Hell in Luke 16:19 – 31) by which even Lazarus can be ‘spared of that Judgment’ too.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Appendix IV: Saved in the Spirit – A Possible Meaning with Book of 1Enoch, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 and 1 Peter 4:6

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161347211397784

 

Question

 

The word destroy in Matthew 10:28 in the Greek is solid. Is Strongs G 622. Mark 1:24 is another usage of it as the demons know their fate of being fully destroyed.

 

Reply

 

Indeed, the 1Enoch Quote in Chapter 66 also clearly seems to show that the Demons are Fully punished only into possibly non-existence in the Lake of Fire as ‘for ever and ever effect’ or ‘unendingly’ where the “ones of the earth” (men) are called to witness it and whilst being punished in it some of them seem to be allowed to ‘believe after seeing’ to cause ‘a change in their spirits for ever and ever toward not uttering any idle/sin word anymore’ and even to be ‘healed of the bodily sins/lust’ on the condition’ if they ‘believe after seeing whilst being punished in the Lake of Fire’ as this Hope is only Uttered toward ‘men’. In 1Enoch Quote on this same “Judgment”, Chapter 50 a similar ‘Salvation with no honour is offered to those who believe after seeing’ there.   This aspect was discussed as a ‘possibility’ in an earlier post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161344813172784

 

Note: There’s a classical fallacy on chapter numbering on the translations of Book of 1Enoch because Laurence’s Chapter 66 is Charles’ Chapter 67 for some reason I don’t know.

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself SANCTIFY you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

So Matthew 10:28 of man being destroyed in both “body and soul” for these ones but their “spirit” (as Body, Soul, Spirit, are distinct in 1 Thessalonians 5:23) may point that these 1Enoch Chapter 66 “saved in the spirit” (possible 1 Corinthians 5:5 too as discussed earlier) may refer to them just saved as ‘spirits’  with “no body nor soul” so they cannot enter heaven nor enjoy the earth? or equivalent? I don’t know but it’s possible.

 

It’s also possible that the “formerly disobedient spirits” in the time of Noah to whom Christ Preached in the Spirit World where “formerly disobedient” means they may have repented there now ‘being obedient now ‘ (implied) by His Preaching & post-prison Judgment in the Spirit World first as Described in 1 Peter 3:17 – 18 (or even 1 Peter 4:6) could refer to such a “Saved in the spirit” context likewise.

 

“… 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the SPIRITS in PRISON, 20who FORMERLY were DISOBEDIENT, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.  …” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

Note: The righteous spirits were “not in prison” (but in comfort regions as Abraham’s Bosom as Christ Taught in Luke 16:19 – 31) and the context here refers to “Disobedient” ones which cannot refer to the ‘Old Testament righteous’.

 

Yes, 1 Peter 4:6’s context below seem to point that “the dead” refers to the “literal dead” (post-mortem, Context in 1 Peter 4:5 first) where the ‘evil ones’ speaking bad of Christians (1 Peter 4:4) are then compared to be judged as per “the dead” (spirit world, 1 Peter 4:5) where the result it is “their flesh” (body + soul get “destroyed, Matthew 10:28) but eventually may “live in the spirit-state” to God upon this change toward good as described by 1Enoch Chapter 66 earlier, Verse:

“…   4In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking EVIL of you. 5THEY will give an account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, NKJV)

Note: In Greek, Verse 6 and Verse 5’s “the dead” reads the same but translators add ‘who are dead’. Example:

 

Berean Literal Bible

For to this END the GOSPEL was PROCLAIMED even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God.

Source: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

Note: 1 Peter 4:6’s Context of “Judgment” is most likely referring to “Judgment day” (because the phrase “Judge the living and the dead” in 1 Peter 4:5 is similar to “Judgment Day” only as per 2 Timothy 4:1 & Acts 17:31) which only Happens after His Second Coming/Appearing, Verses:

 

“… because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” …” (Acts 17:31, NKJV)

 

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

and the Judgment Day Verses below may point to “which THE DEAD” the Gospel may be Preached to (1 Peter 4:6) in light of 1 Peter 4:5’s Context referring first to ‘this Timeline’ as follows (please notice the phrase “THE DEAD” carefully below to whom the “lived in the spirit” referring to the ‘spirit-state’ in 1 Peter 4:6 with no body & no soul being destroyed in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28 may apply):

 

“… And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

 

Please also notice that only “THE DEAD WERE JUDGED” and ‘not the small & great’ where some scholars view the dead being classified as these two classes while we may also see it as Christians (as the Great), non-Christian surprised sheep possibility (could be ‘the small’) or anything equivalent for we don’t know for sure.

 

The Word “Prison” to indicate afterlife Judgment and toward the ‘unrighteous only’ (not the righteous) may be Seen in Christ’s Words below:

 

“… “And why do you not even judge by yourselves what is right? For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you BEFORE the JUDGE, and the JUDGE turn you over to the officer, and the officer THROW YOU INTO PRISON. “I say to you, YOU WILL NOT GET OUT OF THERE UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID THE VERY LAST CENT. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:57 – 59, NASB)

 

Compare:

The Verses above clearly describe the ‘Final Judgment’ as the Word “Judge” is used and the “Prison”  is the same metaphor for Gehenna/Lake of Fire because it’s referred likewise in Verses below (as the Final Judgment cannot happen without the Resurrection first):

“… 21And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, AS PRISONERS ARE GATHERED IN THE PIT, and shall be SHUT UP IN THE PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be VISITED. …” (Isaiah 24:21 – 22, KJV)

Please compare with the word “Prison till the last penny” in Luke 12:57 – 59, Matthew 5:22 – 26 and Matthew 18:32 – 35 prior with Isaiah 24:21 – 22 above in the Context of “Judgment Day” Timeline and “Lake of Fire” Judgment Context as these Verses seem to point when collectively understood.

 

Please notice also that this “shut up in Prison” (Isaiah 24:22) happens in the future (highlighted phrase: “… IN THAT DAY…” in Isaiah 24:21 above, Judgment Day is when the fallen angels are also judged as per Matthew 25:31 – 46) and “Visited” here in the Original Language means to “Inspect” which possibly can refer to ‘checking to see if repentance or change has occurred or if the till the last penny sentence is over’.

 

Regarding 1 Corinthians 5:5, I repeat:

This phrase “saved in the spirit” on the “Day” of “Lord Jesus” is found in Verse below with the ‘Destruction of the Flesh’ (as per the resurrected body above which was condemned to the Lake of Fire Judgment but spirit was being saved with this change to not utter any idle word against God anymore), to quote:

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

Context comment: The Verse in 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to a ‘fallen Christian’ who was doing weird ‘sexual immorality’ (and so cannot inherit the Kingdom of God unless he repents on earth, 1 Corinthians 6: 9 – 10) and the fact that some scholars point to him repenting later in 2 Corinthians 2:6 – 8 proves one key point which ‘all Bible readers should agree’ namely,

‘… when 1 Corinthians 5:5 was written, it points to a man who was heading straight to hell for that sexual sin and will be considered ‘wicked’ and not inherit the kingdom of God, right? (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10). The delivered to “Satan” can mean this one is no more a flock of Christ and suffers the penalty of sin immediately too. If this person was a ‘believer’ just being punished by Satan so he can be saved (as some scholars propose), then his spirit would be saved at death itself (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:8) for normal believers but here it specifically Says that ‘the spirit is saved only on the [Future] Day of Lord Jesus’ which is ‘Judgment Day’ (1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, 2 Timothy 1:18) . Also how can apostle St. Paul point to a mystery that ‘his spirit may be saved’ in the ‘future timeline of Day of Lord Jesus’ if he was  headed for an eternal Hell with no hope? Arguing that he repented later doesn’t solve the mystery because when this Verse was written that didn’t happen yet and so the context of an unrepentant sinner to have ‘his spirit saved but in the Day of Lord Jesus’ only seems possible as this quote from Book of 1Enoch on this part seem to point too. Mysterious indeed …’

I am ‘not’ saying that this is the meaning but just as a “possibility” as these are so difficult to ascertain for sure and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept His Decision.

 

Believing after Seeing and the Saved Surprised Sheep of the Nations Possibilities

 

As I see consider these “Possibilities” with the Chiliasm Timeline,

 

1) Millennial Reign

 

The 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ happens with the First Resurrection which is meant only for Christians be it thirty, sixty or Hundredfold ones (Revelation 20:4 – 6).

 

2) Judgment Day

 

1000 years after that (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7)  Judgment Day occurs for the rest of the dead (Revelation 20:11 – 15) where some of the Millennial Reign mortal sinners may be saved too (Isaiah 65:20, Matthew 25:14 – 30) where some could be saved on Judgment Day too (Isaiah 45:22 – 25, Zephaniah 3:8 – 13) especially since it is seems to point to a ‘sinless people after that who do no unrighteousness’ (Zephaniah 3:13) which contradicts the Millennial Reign Timeline people (which some Christians propose) who are still mortal or sinners (Isaiah 65:20 KJV mentions this clearly). The case of the ‘Surprised Sheep’ who are Saved only on Judgment Day from the “nations” based on the Charity Doctrine they Practiced toward “My Brethren” (Matthew 12:50) can mean this as whether they helped the Millennial Reign mortal Israel and/or mortal Christians in their lifetime when one was ‘… Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ (Matthew 26:31 – 46) as the KING Says, ‘… as you did it to the least of these, you did it to Me …’ (Matthew 25:40). The possibility of receiving Christians can be equal to receiving Christ (Matthew 10:40) may allow for such a hope as the next Verse Says immediately that this could mean the ‘reward of receiving a righteous man’ (in Matthew 10:41).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Mercy Triumphs Over Judgment for some

 

This is not Salvation by works but a special Mercy shown in Judgment according to what level of Mercy in the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle which one practiced especially toward Christians which one did first in their mortal lives as James 2:13 indicates. James 2:13’s Context for “Mercy” refers to the “Love your neighbour as yourself” which fulfills “All Law” (James 2:8) which Apostle St. James himself points to as referring to only the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle in immediate consecutive Verses in James 2:14 – 18 where he connects it to ‘works of faith next’ where other works of faith are possible but not written here.

Mysteriously James 2:13 seems to imply two things, namely No Mercy for one who didn’t practice the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle of Mercy in Action and to the ones who Practiced this Mercy in Action in the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle, “Mercy can triumph over and end their Judgment”. Believing after seeing possibility comes in place next as John 3:14 – 15 Indicates to Christ When He has been “Lifted Up” and after the Resurrection can “Draw all men to Him” after being “Lifted Up from the Earth” indicating post-mortem and/or Judgment Day Salvation hope in that Context too as John 12:32 Mysteriously Echoes toward the “all men whom Christ Draws” (1 Timothy 4:10 also indicates a broader “all men” to Whom God is Declared a Saviour where “especially believers” indicates a subset). If true, John 10:16’s Sheep of the other fold could indicate these ‘Judgment Day Charity Doctrine Practicing people who did it to Christ’s Brethren or Christians/Millennial Reign Jews’  (as they’re called ‘sheep’ too in Matthew 25:31 – 46) who are ‘just saved on Judgment Day as they are Surprised too’ which seems unlikely to point to any Christian Elect Salvation which occurred 1000 years earlier with the Marriage of the Lamb (Matthew 25:1 – 13, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36,  1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, Revelation 19:7 – 9 where these only occur after the destruction of the final antichrist, Revelation 19:11 – 21). The non-Elect Salvation possibility which occurs ‘after the Wedding Feast (or Christian-Elect Salvation)’ during or after the Millennial Reign Timeline in the ‘Second and Third Watches’ too (in Luke 12:31 – 38) together with the ‘Special Mercy for the POOR, BLIND, MAIMED’ to participate later may be inferred from Christ’s Parable of the Wedding Feast in Luke 14:21 – 24 which was compared against the Christian-Elect Salvation on the condition of the Charity Doctrine in Luke 14:12 – 14 first. This non-Elect Salvation may include where the ‘Gospel Seed’ was not sown too (Matthew 25:24, 26).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) Believing after Seeing

 

Believing after seeing possibility elaborated. Regarding “unbelievers” being judged into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8), Christ Was Harsh toward Jewish Unbelievers in the Context of them “Seeing Him (literally) and still not believing” (John 6:36). Immediately in the next Verse, Christ Tells them that All that the Father Gives Him who come to Him, He Will not cast out (John 6:37) which includes these Surprised Sheep on Judgment Day too (Matthew 25:31 – 46) which can mean ‘Believing after seeing  Him in the Spirit World when they come to Him in person there or on Judgment Day (Last Day)’ because John 6:36 – 37 seem to point strongly comparing “literal seeing of Christ to believe Him or not”. Christ then Declares the Will of the Father which is one to “see and believe Him” (in John 6:39 – 40) where the Context of “Seeing” here may be compared to include or specially focus on the “literal seeing and believing” (because John 6:36 sets this Context strongly first) where up to the “Last Day” (Judgment Day this ‘seeing and believing’ could be available likewise) not just to these ‘Surprised Merciful Sheep’ only (Matthew 25:31 – 46) but also to ‘others who may be Saved without honour’ (as the Mysterious Book of 1Enoch , Chapter 50, Verses 1 to 5 possibly quoted by Apostle Jude  points). The “Last Day” (7th Day) can refer to the 1000 years Millennial Reign Sabbath Rest Timeline where the Christian Elect Salvation by Faith via believing without seeing (Hebrews 11:1) occurs at the start of this Last Day as the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6) while the “believing after seeing possibility Salvation” (John 6:36 – 40) may thus apply to “some” merciful ones such as the ‘Surprised Sheep’ (Matthew 25:31 – 46) who “Did Good” but Raised simultaneously with the wicked (John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2) which cannot refer to the Christian First Resurrection Salvation where there is “no” simultaneous resurrection of the Wicked 1000 years earlier (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which then indicates that this must be at the ‘End of this Last Day, 1000 years later when Judgment Day begins’ (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7) as Christ might have Meant Collectively to be Raised Up (“Resurrected”) during this entire ‘Last Day 1000 years time period’ (start and end respectively as suggested here) agreeing with John 6:40’s Believing after Seeing possibility with other Verses quoted here too collectively.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5) Saved ones from the Nations on Judgment Day

 

Revelation 21:24 – 27 indicates that these “Saved from the nations” ones may thus inherit the New Earth  (Revelation 21:1 as the old earth is too small to contain so many people and has no sea and has never been touched with sin) where these includes the “kings of the earth” (indicating most likely non-Christians) because Christians are the “Bride inside this New Jerusalem City” (Revelation 21:2) which descends and connects to earth (Revelation 21:9 – 10) where these “people who are just saved from the nations on Judgment Day in Revelation 21:24 – 28” (again indicates non-Christians such as the ‘Surprised Sheep’ as Christians are already Saved 1000 years earlier, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:31 – 46) bring their “glory and honour” into “it” referring to this ‘New Jerusalem City’ whose Gates are not shut and this is not the Millennial Reign Timeline as the “Lamb’s Book of Life Judgment has been Revealed and is only revealed on Judgment Day” (Revelation 21:27, Revelation 20:11 – 15). Please also notice that Revelation 21:24 – 27 indicates that these newly saved ones from Judgment Day just “Visit” the “New Jerusalem City” (lowest Heaven) and they are indicated to be the “saved from nations and from the earth entering this city” pointing to them inheriting outside on the earth only (as these ‘Surprised Merciful Sheep’ could be the ‘Meek’ whom Christ Said would inherit this New Earth, Matthew 5:5 and Mercy toward those who are ‘Merciful in life earlier too’, Matthew 5:7). Another indicator that these could be different from Christians is based on Revelation 22:17 where “God” (the Spirit) and Christians (the Bride) seems to invite those “who thirst” (possibly these Saved ones from the Nations as the Bride cannot be calling itself) to take the “Water of Life freely” indicating these may just be Saved at that time on Judgment Day when these things Happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6) Bible Verses Quoted here for reference

“… 4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. …”(Revelation 20:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

“… 7Now when the thousand years have expired, … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. …  15And ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. …” (Revelation 20:7, 11 – 12, 15, NKJV)

 

“… There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the SINNER being an hundred years old shall be accursed. …” (Isaiah 65:20, KJV)

 

“… 14“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 24“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ …”(Matthew 25:14 – 30, NKJV)

 

 

“… Who has declared this from ancient time?

Who has told it from that time?

Have not I, the Lord?

And there is no other God besides Me,

A just God and a Savior;

There is none besides Me.

22“LOOK TO ME and BE SAVED,

All you ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.

23I have sworn by Myself;

The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,

And shall not return,

That to Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW,

EVERY TONGUE SHALL TAKE AN OATH. …” (Isaiah 45:21 – 23, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“… 8“Therefore wait for Me,” says the Lord,

“Until the day I rise up [d]for plunder;

My determination is to GATHER THE NATIONS

To My assembly of kingdoms,

To pour on them My indignation,

ALL MY FIERCE ANGER;

All the earth shall be devoured

With the fire of My jealousy.

9“For then I WILL RESTORE TO THE PEOPLES a PURE [E]LANGUAGE,

That THEY ALL MAY CALL ON THE NAME of the LORD, To SERVE HIM WITH ONE ACCORD. …” (Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

“… The remnant of Israel shall do NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS And speak NO LIES, NOR shall a DECEITFUL TONGUE be found in their mouth; For they shall feed their flocks and lie down, And no one shall make them afraid.” …” (Zephaniah 3:13, NKJV)

 

“… 46While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” …” (Matthew 12: 46 – 50, NKJV)

“… 31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘LORD, WHEN DID WE SEE YOU HUNGRY and FEED YOU, OR THIRSTY AND GIVE YOU DRINK? 38When did we SEE YOU A STRANGER AND TAKE YOU IN, or NAKED AND CLOTHE YOU? 39Or when did we see YOU SICK, OR IN PRISON, AND COME TO YOU?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘ASSUREDLY, I SAY TO YOU, INASMUCH AS YOU DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DID IT TO ME.’ 41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I WAS HUNGRY AND YOU GAVE ME NO FOOD; I WAS THIRSTY AND YOU GAVE ME NO DRINK; 43I WAS A STRANGER and YOU DID NOT TAKE ME IN, NAKED and YOU DID NOT CLOTHE ME, SICK and IN PRISON AND YOU DID NOT VISIT ME.’ 44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when DID WE SEE YOU HUNGRY or THIRSTY OR A STRANGER OR NAKED OR SICK or in PRISON, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as YOU DID NOT DO IT to one of the least of these, you DID NOT DO IT TO ME.’ 46And THESE WILL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:31 – 46, NKJV)

“… 34Then PETER opened his mouth and said: “In TRUTH I perceive that GOD shows no partiality. 35But in EVERY NATION WHOEVER FEARS HIM and WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS is ACCEPTED BY HIM. …” (Acts 10:34 – 35, NKJV)

 

“… And the KING will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as YOU DID IT to ONE OF THE LEAST of THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DI IT TO ME.’ …” (Matthew 25:40, NKJV)

“…40“He who receives you receives Me, … 41He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:40 – 42, highlighted phrases, NKJV)

The phrase “…40“He who receives you receives Me, …” (Matthew 10:40) might be the same meaning as “… 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren [Christians before the Millennial Reign & Millennial Reign mortal Jews], ye have done it unto me. …” (Matthew 25:40). Can you see this Possibility?

 

Also the phrase “…  40For he who is not against us is on our side …” (Mark 9:40) where Christ Generalizes beyond the ‘Believing in Christ miracle worker from another denomination analogy’ (Mark 9:39) to include even those “… 41For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. …” (Mark 9:41) points to this possibility too as good non-Christians who are kind to Christians being ‘not against them’ may ‘actually be on their side’ & hence inherit this Mercy & Reward shown to them as these Verses could mean that directly when taken together.

“… For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. …”(James 2:13, NKJV)

 

“… 8If you really FULFILL the ROYAL LAW according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; … For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. 14What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [f]your works, and I will show you my faith by [g]my works. …” (James 2:8, 13 – 18, NKJV)

 

“…  14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the SON of MAN be LIFTED UP, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. …” (John 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 32And I, if I be LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. …” (John 12:32 – 33, KJV)

 

 

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; … 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …  9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 11These things COMMAND and TEACH.  … (1 Timothy 2:1, 3 – 7, 4:9 – 11, KJV)

 

“… And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 10:16, NKJV)

 

 

 

“… 1“Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6“And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom [a]is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. 11“Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour [b]in which the Son of Man is coming. …” (Matthew 25:1 – 13, NKJV)

“… 4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION. OVER SUCH THE SECOND DEATH has NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS. ….” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, NKJV)

“… 13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. …” (1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, NKJV)

Note: ‘the rest of the dead’ do “not” have this Hope (Context for 1 Thessalonians 4:13) of Participating in the “First Resurrection” as indicated by the phrase “… the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. …” (1 Thessalonians 4:16 – 17) which is the ‘Elect Salvation for Christians only’.

“… 6And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the[d] Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” …” (Revelation 19:6 – 9, NKJV)

“… 11Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. …  20Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.  …”(Revelation 19:11 – 13, 20 – 21, NKJV)

 

“… 34JESUS ANSWERED and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that AGE (Aeon/Olam), and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 20:4 – 6), NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; 36nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. …” (Luke 20:34 – 36, NKJV)

 

“…12Then He also said to him who invited Him, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, NOR RICH NEIGHBORS, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. 13But when you give a feast, INVITE the POOR, THE MAIMED, THE LAME, THE BLIND. 14And you will be BLESSED, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be REPAID at the RESURRECTION OF THE JUST.” …” (Luke 14:12 – 14, NKJV)

 

“… 21So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the STREETS and LANES of the city, and bring in here the POOR and the MAIMED and the LAME and the BLIND.’ 22And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still THERE IS ROOM.’ 23Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the HIGHWAYS and HEDGES, and COMPEL THEM to COME IN, that MY HOUSE MAY BE FILLED. 24For I say to you that NONE of those men who were INVITED shall taste MY SUPPER.’ ” …” (Luke 14:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

“… 31“But SEEK HIS KINGDOM, and THESE THINGS will be ADDED TO YOU. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33“SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS and GIVE TO CHARITY; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 35“Be dressed in readiness, and KEEP YOUR LAMPS LIT. 36You are also to be like people who are waiting for their master when he RETURNS FROM THE WEDDING FEAST, so that they may immediately open the door for him when he comes and knocks. 37Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will [z]prepare himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and he will come up and serve them. 38Whether he COMES IN THE [AA]SECOND WATCH, or EVEN IN THE [AB]THIRD, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:31 – 38, NASB)

Note: The Second and Third Watch could refer to the Millennial Reign Timeline after His Second Coming toward the “Last Day” into the Judgment Day as the phrase “… .RETURNS FROM THE WEDDING FEAST …” can refer to it. So these Verses itself demonstrate why the “Charity Doctrine” is so important for the “Treasures in Heaven part as part of Seeking His Kingdom” Described by the Most Blessed Saviour Himself in Verses above (please notice the words “Charity” , “second” and “third watch” etc. Carefully in the above). Also the mysterious phrase “… RETURNS FROM THE WEDDING FEAST …” together with the phrases “… 38Whether he COMES IN THE [AA]SECOND WATCH, or EVEN IN THE [AB]THIRD, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. …” can refer to the non-Elect Salvation during the “Last Day”(or Millennial Reign Timeline, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:31 – 46 etc.) simply because the “Wedding Feast” is over by then which refers to the “First Resurrection” which is 1000 years before “Judgment Day”.

“… Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:24, NKJV)

“… But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. …” (Matthew 25:26, NKJV)

 

“…  But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” … “Come, I will show you the [g]bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. …” (Revelation 21:8 – 10, 24 – 27, NKJV)

 

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

Yes the definition of “unbelievers” may only refer to those who have “seen Christ” but yet choose not to believe as His Words Echo here “… 36But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.  …” (John 6:36, NKJV). In this same Topic/Context, Christ Continues “… 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. … 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” …” (John 6:37, 40, NKJV) which since He Contrast with John 6:36 it may point to the “believing after seeing Him” as John 6:40 calls it the “Will of the Father” which causes “Everlasting Life” which can refer to Spirit World Salvation (1 Peter 4:6 too) because some may “See Him” only after they die and this Salvation is Said to be available till the “Last Day” (in John 6:40).

 

The “Last Day” is the Judgment Day Timeline or by the End of the Millennial Reign Timeline and so it is “Possible” that it can include both the ‘Spirit World’ Salvation from now till then for some (e.g. if 1 Peter 4:6 means this as some claim) or it can refer to the ‘one last chance on Judgment Day or Last Day to see Him & Believe for everlasting life’ (John 6:40 with Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, Isaiah 45:21 – 23 with the Book of 1Enoch quote could mean this as discussed in earlier posts*). We also see that these Gentile Righteous or the “Surprised Sheep” Saved only on Judgment Day (Matthew 25:31 – 46) did the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Acts toward the “Millennial Reign Jews” but also toward “Christians” who are Christ’s Brothers and Sisters (Matthew 12:50).

 

“… 7Now when the thousand years have expired, … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. …  15And ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. …” (Revelation 20:7, 11 – 12, 15, NKJV)

 

“… 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. …” (John 5:28 – 29, NKJV)

 

“… And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. …”(Daniel 12:2, NKJV)

 

“… 5Blessed are the MEEK, For they shall INHERIT THE [a]EARTH. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7Blessed are the MERCIFUL,

For they shall OBTAIN MERCY.  …” (Matthew 5:5, 7, NKJV)

 

“… And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. …” – apostle John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

 

Where possibly:

The Spirit = God

The Bride = Christians

“who thirsts” = some non-Christians who are being Saved on Judgment Day (e.g. Revelation 21:24 – 27, Matthew 25:31 – 46, Zephaniah 3:8 – 9, Isaiah 45:21 – 23 quoted earlier).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7) First Christianity Quotes

 

1. i) Chiliasm Timeline Order example where ‘ALL CHRISTIANS’ (thirty, Sixty or hundredfold level inheritance) Participate in the First Resurrection

“… But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: ‘For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create’…For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ is connected with this subject [2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4]. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10]; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place [Revelation 20:11 – 15]. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36] …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, CHAPTER LXXXI)

 

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

1. ii) Possible Hope for non-Christians who were Merciful toward Christians with the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle

“… Also, by this which this servant dared to say, “Thou reapest where thou sowedst not,” [Matthew 25:26] we understand that the Lord accepts the good life of the Gentiles and of the Philosophers. …” –  Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD)

Source [ Patristic Bible Commentary, Catena Aurea, Matthew 25:14 – 30, P. 853 ]:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/matthew-commentary/catena-aurea-on-matthew/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6/chapter-7/chapter-8/chapter-9/chapter-10/chapter-11/chapter-12/chapter-13/chapter-14/chapter-15/chapter-16/chapter-17/chapter-18/chapter-19/chapter-20/chapter-21/chapter-22/chapter-23/chapter-24/chapter-25

iii) St. Irenaeous of Lyons hinting on both the First Resurrection and the Second Resurrection to have a separate badge of ‘sheep/righteous’ too

 

Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons calls the “First Resurrection followed by the Millennial Reign of 1000 years” as the “Times of the Kingdom” referring also to these Verses in Luke 12:35 – 48 too in quote below:

“… This is what the Lord declared: “Happy are those servants whom the Lord when He cometh shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down [to meat], and will come forth and serve them. And if He shall come in the evening watch, and find them so, blessed are they, because He shall make them sit down, and minister to them; or if this be in the second, or it be in the third, blessed are they.” [Luke 12:35 – 48]. Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.” [Revelation 20:4 – 6] Then, too, Isaiah has declared the TIME when THESE EVENTS shall OCCUR; he says: “And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth.” [Isaiah 6:11 – 13]. Then Daniel also says this very thing: “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting [age-during till the end of this age during the LAST DAY for 1000 years, Daniel 7:27], and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: “And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days [Daniel 12] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXIV, Point 2)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

The phrase “you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding,” (in Luke 12:36, NKJV) “And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.” (Luke 12:38, NKJV) clearly implies that these Verses linked clearly to ‘servants’ mentioned in Matthew 25:14 – 30’s   “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,” (Matthew 25:14, NKJV) points to the ‘Millennial Reign Time Period of 1000 years’ as the phrase “when he will return from the wedding” in Luke 12:36 (implies that these are the ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ who are NOT part of His Wedding with His Bride/Church) who are already Saved first (Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:1 – 13) but the rest rejected (Matthew 7:20 – 23) and the Lord may Visit the Earth at least ‘three times or in three watches’ as the phrase “And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch” in Luke 12:38 means as the result of them being rewarded for ‘good works’ at the End of this 1000 years in the Second Resurrection as the ‘Second Badge of Righteous too’ (Matthew 25:20 – 23, Revelation 20:11 – 15).

 

 

 

Indeed, these may be the Mysterious ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ where Christ Reaped (as whatever He Reaps is unto Salvation, Matthew 13:30) even where He Sowed not [the Gospel Seed, Matthew 25:24, Matthew 25:26] whose Judgment is based on ‘Good Works’ only (John 5:28 – 29, Matthew 25:31 – 40, Revelation 20:11 – 15) as His Mercy may be Extended to them (Romans 9:15) which occurs during this ‘Second Resurrection’ after the 1000 years have ended (Revelation 20:5) as Blessed St. Irenaeous’ calls this time period as the “after the times of the kingdom”, to quote:

“… And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, “I saw a Great White Throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.”  [Revelation 20:11] And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the judgment, mentioning “the dead, great and small.” “The sea,” he says, “gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,” he says, “the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, ACCORDING to THEIR WORKS; and Death and hell [Hades] were sent into the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH.” [Revelation 20:11 – 15] Now this is what is called GEHENNA [Matthew 10:28], which the Lord styled eternal [AGE-DURING] fire [Matthew 25:31 – 46]. “And if any one,” it is said, “was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the LAKE of FIRE. [Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8] … ” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 140 – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35:2) Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

Here is another quote of Blessed St. Irenaeous which agrees to this ‘Second Badge of Righteous by Works only’ toward ‘all the remaining dead in the tombs’ as Christ Spoke in John 5:28 – 29 in the ‘hour to come’ on the Last Day (i.e. ‘whoever’ that is not resurrected in body yet in the First Resurrection, Revelation 20:5):

 

“… Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal [age-during] things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XIII, Point 1)
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

An Important Comment: As demonstrated, this ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ being raised to life [i.e. Soul given a Body, Bodily Resurrection] during these “after the times of the kingdom” on Judgment Day at the end of the 1000 years Millennial Reign is not referring to any Christian at all as Blessed St. Irenaeous’ earlier own quote clearly proved that he understood that all the Christians [i.e. of thirty, sixty or hundredfold fruit] are reaped in the First Resurrection itself. So, the ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ must refer to the Rejected Christians and non-Christian righteous, i.e. toward anyone who did “good works” among ‘all those who remain in the tomb’ [i.e. souls whose body still has not been raised] as Christ Remarked too in John 5:28 – 29.

 

1. iv) St. Hippolytus of Rome seems also to indicate two badge of righteous in two resurrections

 

” … Moreover, concerning the resurrection and the kingdom of the saints, Daniel says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall arise, some to everlasting [age-during] life, (and some to shame and everlasting [age-during] contempt, Daniel 12:2).” Esaias says, “The dead men shall arise, and they that are in their tombs shall awake; for the dew from thee is healing to them.” The Lord says, “Many in that day shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.” And the prophet says, “Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” And John says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power.” [Revelation 20:6] For the second death is the lake of fire that burneth. And again the Lord says, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun shineth in his glory.” And to the saints He will say, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”  But what saith He to the wicked? “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [age-during] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, which my Father hath prepared.” [Matthew 25:41] And John says, “Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie; for your part is in the hell of fire.” [Revelation 21:8] And in like manner also Esaias: “And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. And their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be for a spectacle to all flesh.” [Isaiah 66:24] – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 65)

 

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus-christ.html

 

 

 

 

 

Please note carefully how Hippolytus distinguishes between those from the ‘General Resurrection’ vs those from the ‘First Resurrection’ whilst discussing the Great White Throne of Judgment in the quote above:

 

How do I know that Hippolytus referred to the ‘General Resurrection’ when he quotes Daniel 12:2 as it is not so clear especially since he seems to quote both Verses which refer to the First & Second Resurrection in the same paragraph above? To quote:

 

 

Hippolytus was one of the Church of Rome’s greatest early theologians according to The Catholic Encyclopedia. Notice what he wrote in the early third century:

 

“… For concerning the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the kingdom of the saints, Daniel says: “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [age-during] life, and some to shame and everlasting [age-during] contempt.” And Isaiah says: “The dead shall rise, and those in the tombs shall awake, and those in the earth shall rejoice.” And our Lord says: “Many in that [Last] Day shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live … ” (Hippolytus. On the End of the World, Chapter XXXVI. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1886. Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight).

 

Or the same quote above may be found in an online link below (by the Famous Respected Christian Protestant Historian, Mr. Philip Schaff himself):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.v.i.xxxvi.html

Yes, Hippolytus himself referred to the hope which is NOT possible for others but the Christian dead ONLY (in 1 Thessalonians 4:13) to refer to the ‘First Resurrection’ or the ‘Resurrection of the Just only’ (tying up 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17 to Revelation 20:4 – 6 & Luke 14:14) agreeing perfectly to our exegesis in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20 as well, as NO Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, to quote:

“… Concerning the RESURRECTION of the RIGHTEOUS, Paul also speaks thus in writing to the Thessalonians: “We would not have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (and) remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice and trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive (and) remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18] …” – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 66)

 

Source: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.iv.ii.i.html

 

1. Can the ‘Second Badge of Righteous’ refer to ‘non-Christian good & fallen Christians too’?

 

Hence I may speculate (with First Christianity quote as proof as discussed in posts prior) that this Second Badge of Righteous are Saved by His Mercy according to their “Good Works only” which may primarily refer to ‘non Christian relatively good’ (as He reaps them to Salvation, Matthew 13:30 from among those whom He did not plant the Seed of the Gospel, Matthew 25:24, Matthew 25:26) which may also include some of the ‘rejected Christians prior if they did show some ‘oil’ or ‘good works’ toward their fellow men’, to quote (an example quote from a previous discussion):

 

“… Come, ye friends of the poor and the stranger. Come, ye who kept my love, as I am love. Come, ye who possess peace, for I own that peace. Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you, ye who esteemed not riches, ye who had compassion on the poor, who aided the orphans, who helped the widows, who gave drink to the thirsty, who fed the hungry, who received strangers, who clothed the naked, who visited the sick, who comforted those in prison, who helped the blind, … Then shall the King of kings make answer again, and say to them, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Inasmuch as ye have received those of whom I have already spoken to you, and clothed them, and fed them, and gave them to drink, I mean the poor who are my members, ye have done it unto me. But come ye into the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; enjoy for ever and ever that which is given you by my Father in heaven, and the holy and quickening Spirit. …” – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD)

 

Source [Appendix, XLII, XLIV]:

 

https://www.worthychristianlibrary.com/ante-nicene-fathers/hippolytus-contappendix-to-the-works-of-hippolytus-cont/

 

Or the same quote above may be found in an online link below (by the Famous Respected Christian Protestant Historian, Mr. Philip Schaff himself):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.v.i.xlii.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Blessed Hippolytus of Rome further explains that Christ looks to have Mercy according to how one has shown Mercy in their lives first toward ‘all men’ or ‘each man’ (Matthew 5:7) in his quote continued from the above as seen toward the wicked next:

“… Cleave to me, to whom every knee boweth, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth. For all who have been negligent, and have not shown pity in well-doing there, have nothing else due them than the unquenchable fire. For I am the friend of man, but yet also a righteous Judge to all. For I shall award the recompense according to desert; I shall give the reward to all, according to each man’s labour; I shall make return to all, according to each man’s conflict. I wish to have pity, but I see no oil in your vessels. I desire to have mercy, but ye have passed through life entirely without mercy. I long to have compassion, but your lamps are dark by reason of your hardness of heart. Depart from me. For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy. (Jam_2:13) …” – Blessed St. Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop and Martyr for Christ, Hearer of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons (170 AD – 235 AD)

Source [Appendix, XLVII.]:

 

https://www.worthychristianlibrary.com/ante-nicene-fathers/hippolytus-contappendix-to-the-works-of-hippolytus-cont/

 

Or the same quote above may be found in an online link below (by the Famous Respected Christian Protestant Historian, Mr. Philip Schaff himself):

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.v.i.xlvii.html

 

The phrase ” I wish to have pity, but I see no oil in your vessels. I desire to have mercy, but ye have passed through life entirely without mercy.” strengthens our Context Claim that those who may have Practiced Mercy among these ‘non-Christians’ can Hope for His Mercy as Christ Seeks these ‘Works of Mercy’ in them (John 5:28 – 29, Revelation 20:11 – 15) in order to show any Mercy as Blessed St. Hippolytus’ quote above rings.

 

Note: Who was ‘Mr. Philip Schaff’?

 

Please visit this link:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Schaff

 

1. v) Ambrosiaster on the definition of “All Men” used in Scripture to mean more than Christians only though “not” necessarily ‘all human beings’ and that the repenting of unbelief on Judgment Day and exercising the believing after seeing possibility may exist

 

“… If he stops there, he stops being blessed to become guilty and worthy of punishment. Yet he still retains some hope of amendment, because he is not impious, but simply sinful. … because if he does not then have a complete ruin, he is nevertheless worthy of punishment. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster

” … QUESTION 126. FROM THE ONE WHO RECEIVED THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. … In fact, the knowledge of God must inspire the fear of the just judge, in whose court he teaches us that the faithful will receive the reward of their righteousness, and the ungodly, that is to say the unbelievers, the just punishment of their infidelity. It is of all justice, indeed, that the good ones be filled with joy in the future life in which Jesus Christ must reign with his chosen ones. They have been exposed to scorn, outrages in this world where the devil reigns, they will appear surrounded by glory in the kingdom of Jesus Christ for which they have borne the contempt of the worldly. SINNERS, on the contrary, who seemed to shine here below a false brilliance, opposing falsehood to truth, have to wait for tribulation and an imaginary glory to succeed for them a contempt, a humiliation too real. The righteous will rejoice in having believed, when they witness the chastisements of the unbelieving, and THE UNFAITHFUL WILL REPENT of THEIR UNBELIEF ONLY when THEY SEE BOTH THEIR OWN CHASTISEMENT and the glory of those WHOSE FAITH THEY HAD REGARDED as an ACT of MADNESS, which was only worthy of their contempt. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

Source (for both quotes above):

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/ambrosiaster-questions-on-the-old-and-new-testaments/polemic

Note: Ambrosiaster is the name given to the unknown author of a commentary on the epistles of Saint Paul, written some time between 366 and 384 AD and even St. Augustine quoted him, link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosiaster

 

1. vi) Book of 1Enoch’s ‘Salvation with no honour’ with ‘believing after seeing’ possibility to be offered on ‘Judgment Day’ itself agreeing to Ambrosiaster’s quote above too

 

“… 1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect, And the light of days shall abide upon them, And glory and honour shall turn to the holy, 2 ON THE DAY OF AFFLICTION on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits: And HE WILL CAUSE THE OTHERS TO WITNESS (this) THAT THEY MAY REPENT And FORGO THE WORKS OF THEIR HANDS. 3 They shall have NO HONOUR through the name of the Lord of Spirits, YET THROUGH HIS NAME SHALL THEY BE SAVED [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21], And THE LORD OF SPIRITS WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON THEM, For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement, And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself: At HIS JUDGEMENT THE UNREPENTANT SHALL PERISH before Him. 5 And FROM HENCEFORTH I will have NO MERCY on them, saith the Lord of Spirits. …” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 50)

Translation Source: http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

Please notice Carefully that this “Salvation with no honour” (hence not a Christian Salvation but possibly unbelievers or fallen Christians) happening on the “Day of Affliction” (Judgment Day) as mentioned in Quote above may refer to the “Saved by fire” case (1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15) after they have “their part” in the Lake of Fire first (Revelation 20:11 – 15).

Do these Verses and quotes mean that or not? God Alone Knows. Let’s see on Judgment Day.

 

vii) Hope Beyond via St. Ignatius of Antioch

Firstly, St. Ignatius of Antioch is quoting these “Bible Verses” in his quotes next, so I put it here for ‘Context Comparison’ and ‘how he quotes it’:

 

“…  14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the SON of MAN be LIFTED UP, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. …” (John 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 32And I, if I be LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. …” (John 12:32 – 33, KJV)

 

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; … 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …  9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 11These things COMMAND and TEACH.  … (1 Timothy 2:1, 3 – 7, 4:9 – 11, KJV)

So, can the phrase “All” or “ALL MEN” in John 12:32 or 1 Timothy 2:1, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 Timothy 4:10 mean more than Christians to  include non-Christians or possibly even ‘All human beings ever created’ eventually?

 

 

 

It is “possible” because the quotes by St. Ignatius of Antioch below  can mean that (or maybe I am erring by not understanding it to mean something more limited, hence I am “not” sure 100%) but an ‘Apostolic Father’ who is a ‘Direct disciple of Apostle St. John himself to make such an error’ looks pretty low chance unless we are misunderstanding him here (I leave it as a mystery as I really don’t know if it means all or ‘more than Christians only as Ambrosiaster’s quote earlier rings’ only God Knows), to quote:

 

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], DREW ALL MEN to Himself for their ETERNAL SALVATION [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND, and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

 

 

 

Conclusion

I am most likely wrong because the majority of Christians view these Verses differently but there’s a small chance this possibility could be true since the eschatology here is based on the Chiliasm Timeline which is the only eschatology which can be proven to be held by the direct disciples of the apostles or their disciples though the interpretation I give here may not match what they thought of it but we don’t know because their writings on these Verses did not survive and hence I speculate here. Regardless of God’s Decision One Day, we accept it and that’s why I don’t teach the above as Doctrine but rather as a “Possibility” only.

 

 

 

 

Book of 1Enoch – Is there Hope beyond the Lake of Fire? – It’s possible but highly unlikely

 

Objective: In light of St. Ignatius’ possible Universalistic quoting of 1 Timothy 2:4 and John 12:32, how is it “possible” with the Lake of Fire (“Gehenna”) Quote of “destroying body and soul” (in Matthew 10:28)? Could the “Saved by Fire” phrase in 1 Corinthians 3:15 be referring to a Salvation after undergoing the “Fire” referring to the “Lake of Fire” especially since 1 Corinthians 3:13 Declares this “Fire” to be “Declared on THAT DAY” which is most likely “Judgment Day”? Since “no” prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), that’s why I quote this Book of 1Enoch here to possibly understand the ‘Mystery of the Lake of Fire’ through this Book which was highly regarded by the First Christians (especially “First Jewish Christians” and some important Church Fathers and many Christians thought of it as “Scripture” too as we quote later).

 

 

0) Bible Verses and St. Ignatius of Antioch’s quote for reference first

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

“… 13each one’s work will become clear; FOR THE DAY will DECLARE it, because it will be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is BURNED, he will SUFFER LOSS; but he HIMSELF WILL  BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE. …” (1 Corinthians 3:13 -15, NKJV)

 

Note: Works that are “Burned” refers to “sin” and Works that are “Rewarded” refers to “Good Works”.

 

“…  14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the SON of MAN be LIFTED UP, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. …” (John 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 32And I, if I be LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. …” (John 12:32 – 33, KJV)

 

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; … 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …  9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. 11These things COMMAND and TEACH.  … (1 Timothy 2:1, 3 – 7, 4:9 – 11, KJV)

 

“… knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV)

 

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], DREW ALL MEN to Himself for their ETERNAL SALVATION [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND, and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

1) Firstly what the Book of 1Enoch?

 

(as there are other Book of Enoch etc. which is not part of the dead sea scrolls but believed to be not original and we are “not” quoting any of that but only this one):

 

“… The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[note 1] Ge’ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ, maṣḥafa hēnok) is an ancient Hebrew apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah.[1][2] Enoch contains unique material on the origins of demons and Nephilim, why some angels fell from heaven, an explanation of why the Genesis flood was morally necessary, and prophetic exposition of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah. The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to 100 BC.[3] Various Aramaic fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as Koine Greek and Latin fragments, are proof that the Book of Enoch was known by Jews and early Near Eastern Christians. This book was also quoted by some 1st and 2nd century authors as in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. Authors of the New Testament were also familiar with some content of the story.[4] A short section of 1 Enoch (1:9) is cited in the New Testament Epistle of Jude, Jude 1:14–15, and is attributed there to “Enoch the Seventh from Adam” (1 Enoch 60:8), although this section of 1 Enoch is a midrash on Deuteronomy 33:2. Several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls.[2] . It is not part of the biblical canon used by Jews, apart from Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews). While the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church consider the Book of Enoch as canonical, other Christian groups regard it as non-canonical or non-inspired, but may accept it as having some historical or theological interest. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Note: All the Sections I’m quoting in this post are from the “Book of Parables” part which is dated to be about 100 years before Christ (c. 100 BC) but some scholars tend to date it up to 200 AD or so and claiming that some content was by added by Christians.

 

No one knows for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

2) Is it Canonical?

 

Most likely Blessed Apostle St. Jude quoted it in the Bible (Jude 1:14, Jude14) as this is the only ‘word to word’ match there is and so this part is certainly Scripture, to quote:

 

“… For the quotation from the Book of Watchers in the New Testament Epistle of Jude: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousand of His saints 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all who are ungodly among them of all their godless deeds which they have godlessly committed, and of all the harsh speeches which godless sinners have spoken against Him.” …”

 

Note: We don’t know for sure if the “Book of Parables” part is Scripture too or if the rest of the Book of Watchers is Scripture as well but it’s ‘possible’.

 

3) Church Fathers

 

We know of Church Fathers quoting it especially the Book of Watchers part only:

 

“… The Greek text was known to, and quoted, both positively and negatively, by many Church Fathers: references can be found in Justin Martyr, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Origen, Cyprian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius and Cassian.[61]: …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

 

Example Quotes in support of Canonicity, to quote:

 

“… Epistle of Jude

Jude 14-15 quotes 1 Enoch who as “the seventh from Adam, prophesied” (Enoch 1:9). “Seventh from Adam,” Enoch, identifies him as the author, Adam’s fifth great-grandson and thus Noah’s great-grandfather. “Prophesied” means that Jude is not simply quoting an historical fact, but that Enoch gave a prophecy, which by definition is an utterance from God. The following verses in Jude develop further material from the named book.[16][17][18][19][20]

 

Epistle of Barnabas

The Epistle of Barnabas (ca 70 AD – 132 AD) quotes Enoch as “Scripture”, sometimes with the formula “it is written.”[21]

 

Justin Martyr

Justin Martyr (110 AD – 165 AD), in his Second Apology, uses information unique to the Book of Enoch to establish doctrine on fallen angels and the origin of demons from angels’ adultery with women.[22]

 

Athenagoras

Athenagoras (133 AD – 190 AD) in his Plea for the Christians uses Enoch to establish doctrine about Genesis 6:1-4, calling Enoch a prophet: “you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets.”[23]

 

Irenaeus

Irenaeus (d. 202 AD), in Against Heresies, discusses the doctrine that Enoch was God’s legate to fallen angels, which is unique to Enoch,[24] and that a group of fallen angels devised methods of sorcery to adulterate with women.[25]

 

 

Clement of Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria (ca 150 AD – ca 215 AD) writes that both Daniel and Enoch taught the same thing regarding the blessing of the faithful (Eclogue 2.1) and that the fallen angels were the source of the black arts (53.4).[26]

 

Tertullian

Tertullian (155 AD – 222 AD), the first author writing in Latin, names and cites Enoch as “divinely inspired” in On the Apparel of Women (Book I) and names Enoch as its genuine, human author. He states that its quotation in Jude 14 is an attestation in the New Testament to its authenticity, though he notes that it is “not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either”. He writes—

But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that “every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired” (2 Tim 3:16). By [non-believers] it may now seem to have been rejected for that very reason, just like all the other passages which plainly tell of Christ.[27]

 

In Book II, Tertullian uses Enoch to establish doctrine against the excessive ornamentation of women, attributing its origin to demons who cohabitated with them before the Great Flood.[28]

 

Within his Apologetic, in “On Idolatry”, he uses Enoch to establish the doctrine that idolatry and astrology originated from demons[29] and that demons are the supernatural issue of fallen angels adulterating with women.[30]

 

Commodianus

Commodianus (ca 240) never mentions Enoch but, in his Instructions, uses information unique to the Book of Enoch to establish doctrine on the origin of demons from angels adulterating with women and on the wicked arts they taught. Thus, he shows that heathen gods were actually the same demons.[31]

 

 

Origen

Origen (185 AD – 254 AD), in De Principiis, quotes Enoch and notes that the church did not accept the several other books called “Enoch” as at all “divine” (Against Celsus). However, Enoch is missing in the quotation of a canonical list from Eusebius’s Church History attributed to Origen.[32]

 

Anatolius

Anatolius (early 3rd c AD – July 3, 283 AD) cites Enoch to interpret the ancient Jewish calendar (in a reference to Enoch, Book of Starlight).[33]

 

Cassiodorus

Cassiodorus (ca 485 AD – ca 585 AD), quotes Jude 14 (“In these words he (Jude) verifies the prophecy”) to verify Enoch’s prophecy as contained in 1 Enoch. In the same Latin translation of comments on the First Epistle of Peter attributed to Clement of Alexandria (ca.150 – 211/216), Cassiodorus also uses Enoch to establish doctrine that fallen angels are apostates from God.[34]

Syncellus

George Syncellus (d. p̄ 810 AD), who once held a position of authority under the patriarch Tarasios of Constantinople, quotes numerous excerpts of the book of Enoch in his Chronography.[35]

Canonical lists

In a surviving copy of canonical lists by Nicephorus of Constantinople, Stichometry (9th c?), Enoch is relegated to an Apocryphon of the New Testament. …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_of_the_book_of_Enoch_before_modern_times

Note: These Church Fathers didn’t go to Hell for even calling this Book as ‘Scripture’ but we consider it as a ‘possibility’ only and hence is ‘safe’. Also, some of the Church Fathers quoted here are also on the list of the ‘First Protestant Father’s’ of ‘Lutheran Fathers’ who quote them on parts which they agree in the ‘Book of Concord’ which may be seen in link below (example): https://bookofconcord.org/sources-and-context/catalog-of-testimonies/

 

4) Lake of Fire description from the Book of 1Enoch’s “Book of Parables” Section (in image too*)

“…  7 beneath that land. And through its valleys proceed STREAMS of FIRE, where these angels are punished who had led astray those who dwell upon the earth. 8 But those WATERS shall in THOSE DAYS serve for the KINGS and the MIGHTY and the EXALTED, and THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH, for the HEALING of THE BODY, but for the PUNISHMENT of the SPIRIT; now their spirit is full of lust, that they may be punished in their body, for they have denied the Lord of Spirits 9 and SEE THEIR PUNISHMENT DAILY, and YET BELIEVE NOT IN HIS NAME. And in PROPORTION as the BURNING of THEIR BODIES becomes SEVERE, a corresponding CHANGE shall take place in THEIR SPIRIT FOR EVER and EVER; 10 for before the Lord of Spirits NONE SHALL UTTER AN IDLE WORD. For the judgement shall come upon them, 11 because they believe in the lust of their body and deny the Spirit of the Lord. And THOSE SAME WATERS will UNDERGO a CHANGE IN THOSE DAYS; for when those angels are punished in these waters, these water-springs shall change their temperature, and when the angels ascend, this water of the 12 springs shall change and become cold. And I heard MICHAEL answering and saying: ‘ THIS JUDGEMENT wherewith the ANGELS ARE JUDGED IS A TESTIMONY FOR THE KINGS and the MIGHTY who POSSESSS the 13 EARTH.’ Because THESE WATERS of JUDGEMENT minister to the HEALING of THE BODY of the KINGS and the LUST of THEIR BODY; therefore THEY WILL NOT SEE and WILL NOT BELIEVE  that THOSE WATERS WILL CHANGE and BECOME A FIRE which BURNS FOR EVER. …” – Book of 1Enoch (Section II: Book of Parables, Chapter 67 Verses 7 to 13)

Source (via Protestant Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_2.HTM

*Image from this source: http://qbible.com/enoch/66.html

 

5) “Possible” Explanations based on Book of 1Enoch (Section II: Book of Parables, Chapter 67 Verses 7 to 13 Quoted in 4) earlier with some Bible Verses too

 

1. i) The Book of 1Enoch in this chapter must be describing the “Lake of Fire” as the term “Lake of Fire” implies that it has both “Water” (as in Lake) and “Fire” too and it’s for the condemned ones “on the earth”

 

“…  7 beneath that land. And through its valleys proceed STREAMS of FIRE, where these angels are punished who had led astray those who dwell upon the earth. 8 But those WATERS shall in THOSE DAYS serve for the KINGS and the MIGHTY and the EXALTED, and THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH, for the HEALING of THE BODY, but for the PUNISHMENT of the SPIRIT;  …”

 

1. ii) Man is made up of a “Body”, “Soul” and “Spirit”

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself SANCTIFY you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

iii) Believing after Seeing Possibility

 

“… now their spirit is full of lust, that they may be punished in their body, for they have denied the Lord of Spirits 9 and SEE THEIR PUNISHMENT DAILY, and YET BELIEVE NOT IN HIS NAME. …”

 

Comment: They are being punished ‘daily’ in this ‘Lake of Fire’ but yet “do not believe in His Name” as described above. This seems to imply the ‘unwritten’ part which is the ‘opposite’ namely, ‘if they believe in His Name’, then there seems to be a possibility that this ‘Lake of Fire’ punishment could be ‘stopped’ by His Mercy, right? For if it cannot be stopped at all, then the Condition “…   and SEE THEIR PUNISHMENT DAILY,  and YET BELIEVE NOT IN HIS NAME. …” doesn’t seem to make sense unless BELIEVING in HIS NAME there can stop it, right? I’m not saying it is so but it’s “possible”, yet let God Decide.

More regarding this ‘Believing after Seeing Possibility’ was discussed in post in link below (please read it continued in comments too, as there was insufficient place):

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161342465207784:0

 

1. iv) Christ Said that Gehenna/Lake of Fire/Hell “Destroys Body and Soul” (in Matthew 10:28) but never mention the “Spirit” part where humans have all three (as per 1 Thessalonians 5:23 too) but Book of 1Enoch in this quote views it as follows

 

“… And in PROPORTION as the BURNING of THEIR BODIES becomes SEVERE, a corresponding CHANGE shall take place in THEIR SPIRIT FOR EVER and EVER; 10 for before the Lord of Spirits NONE SHALL UTTER AN IDLE WORD….”

 

Comment: The change in “their spirit” for whom this Lake of Fire damages “their bodies” in “proportion” (of their sins, implied) is Written above as something ‘Good/Holy’ because this change causes them to ‘never be evil again’ as this ‘change in their spirit’ is described here as “… 10 for before the Lord of Spirits NONE SHALL UTTER AN IDLE WORD….” and this ‘change’ is permanent as it’s for the time period of “… a corresponding CHANGE shall take place in THEIR SPIRIT FOR EVER and EVER;  …”.

 

Could this Mysterious Change (for whom it’s applied) then mean that these are “Saved in their spirit” and the meaning of ‘the smoke of their torment in the Lake of Fire’ is “for ever and ever” (i.e. literally ‘ages of Ages’ in Koine Greek, e.g. Revelation 14:10 – 11) can refer to this ‘positive/holy/good’ change in their “spirit”? In other words, this quote makes it possible that the punishment “for ever and ever” for the Lake of Fire causes a ‘permanent for ever and ever change in THEIR SPIRIT to become GOOD’ again as this quote rings.

 

This phrase “saved in the spirit” on the “Day” of “Lord Jesus” is found in Verse below with the ‘Destruction of the Flesh’ (as per the resurrected body above which was condemned to the Lake of Fire Judgment but spirit was being saved with this change to not utter any idle word against God anymore), to quote:

 

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

Context comment: The Verse in 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to a ‘fallen Christian’ who was doing weird ‘sexual immorality’ (and so cannot inherit the Kingdom of God unless he repents on earth, 1 Corinthians 6: 9 – 10) and the fact that some scholars point to him repenting later in 2 Corinthians 2:6 – 8 proves one key point which ‘all Bible readers should agree’ namely,

‘… when 1 Corinthians 5:5 was written, it points to a man who was heading straight to hell for that sexual sin and will be considered ‘wicked’ and not inherit the kingdom of God, right? (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10). The delivered to “Satan” can mean this one is no more a flock of Christ and suffers the penalty of sin immediately too. If this person was a ‘believer’ just being punished by Satan so he can be saved (as some scholars propose), then his spirit would be saved at death itself (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:8) for normal believers but here it specifically Says that ‘the spirit is saved only on the [Future] Day of Lord Jesus’ which is ‘Judgment Day’ (1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6, 2 Timothy 1:18) . Also how can apostle St. Paul point to a mystery that ‘his spirit may be saved’ in the ‘future timeline of Day of Lord Jesus’ if he was  headed for an eternal Hell with no hope? Arguing that he repented later doesn’t solve the mystery because when this Verse was written that didn’t happen yet and so the context of an unrepentant sinner to have ‘his spirit saved but in the Day of Lord Jesus’ only seems possible as this quote from Book of 1Enoch on this part seem to point too. Mysterious indeed …’

 

1. v) Blessed Archangel Michael himself seem to Repeat this part later to Blessed Enoch that under the condition of “Believing after seeing” this Judgment of the Lake of Fire could be ‘stopped’ by God’s Mercy

 

“… MICHAEL answering and saying: ‘ THIS JUDGEMENT wherewith the ANGELS ARE JUDGED IS A TESTIMONY FOR THE KINGS and the MIGHTY who POSSESSS the 13 EARTH.’ Because THESE WATERS of JUDGEMENT minister to the HEALING of THE BODY of the KINGS and the LUST of THEIR BODY; therefore THEY WILL NOT SEE and WILL NOT BELIEVE  that THOSE WATERS WILL CHANGE and BECOME A FIRE which BURNS FOR EVER. …”

 

Comment: The phrase “… Because THESE WATERS of JUDGEMENT minister to the HEALING of THE BODY of the KINGS and the LUST of THEIR BODY; …” seem to point that the Lake of Fire can “Heal” the “body” from “lust” (sins) too. Notice that as “Fire” this Lake of Fire caused the ‘punishment part described earlier’ while as “water” this same “Lake of Fire” can cause “Healing from sins (lusts)” for these ‘judged ones from the earth’. Is that the Mysterious Reason why “Lake of Fire” has both the “Fire” (for Judgment of sins, ‘destroy the Body’) and “Lake” (Water for healing thereafter) on the CONDITION that “they believe after seeing”?

Please note that this CONDITION that “they believe after seeing” seems to be implied in that ending phrase namely “… therefore THEY WILL NOT SEE and WILL NOT BELIEVE  that THOSE WATERS WILL CHANGE and BECOME A FIRE which BURNS FOR EVER. …”. In other words, Archangel Michael may be saying that ‘if they did not see and believe’ only then these “WATERS will CHANGE BACK and BECOME a FIRE” in which case “it BURNS FOR EVER“. So this seems more like a “conditional” statement describing this possibility and we saw also in the earlier quote that for some ‘the change in their spirits for ever and ever’ is also possible.

Please note that even if ‘saved’ thereafter by ‘believing after seeing from this Lake of Fire’ such ones cannot enter the Kingdom of God not the City even as such blessedness is only for those whose names are in the Most Blessed Lamb’s Book of Life (as Revelation 21:24 – 27 clearly Records) and may live in some ‘Outside the City’ regions (Revelation 22:15) after “their part” in the “Lake of Fire” first (Revelation 21:8).

 

Conclusion

 

This same ‘Book of Parables’ gives a “Believing after Seeing possibility” toward “some sinners” with a ‘Salvation with no honour’ type (and so can’t be a ‘Christian Salvation’ at all as please also notice the word ‘holy & elect’ in Verse 1 below in comparison which refers to Christians), to quote:

 

“… 1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect, And the light of days shall abide upon them, And glory and honour shall turn to the holy, 2 ON THE DAY OF AFFLICTION on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners. And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits: And HE WILL CAUSE THE OTHERS TO WITNESS (this) THAT THEY MAY REPENT And FORGO THE WORKS OF THEIR HANDS. 3 They shall have NO HONOUR through the name of the Lord of Spirits, YET THROUGH HIS NAME SHALL THEY BE SAVED [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21], And THE LORD OF SPIRITS WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON THEM, For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement, And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself: At HIS JUDGEMENT THE UNREPENTANT SHALL PERISH before Him. 5 And FROM HENCEFORTH I will have NO MERCY on them, saith the Lord of Spirits. …” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 50)

 

Source (via Protestant Historian Mr. Philip Schaff again):

 

https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_2.HTM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here’s an Example First Christianity Quote by “Ambrosiaster” which may interpret the “ALL MEN to be SAVED” as per 1 Timothy 2:4 or 1 Timothy 4:10 or John 12:32 with St. Ignatius’ quote earlier too in light of all these quotes:

“… and yet to recognize that His kingdom is ETERNAL, that is to say, the kingdom of the Son, for in the Name of Jesus EVERY KNEE shakes in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, and IN HELL. (Philip. 2) The Apostle St. Peter confirms this truth when he says:” No other name under heaven was given to MEN by which we were to BE SAVED.” (Acts 4) And did not the Lord Himself say to His disciples, “Until now you have not asked anything in my name, ask and I will answer you?” (Jn. 16:24) The REIGN of the Son therefore consists in the fact that it is in HIS NAME that ALL MEN are SAVED, and that ALL the PRAYERS addressed to Him until the end of the world are ANSWERED. But when ALL CREATURES have confessed Jesus Christ WILLINGLY or by FORCE, and have been subjected to the power against which they have resisted, then the MYSTERY of ONE GOD will be REVEALED to ALL MEN, and all thanksgivings will go back to God the Father, the principle of all things, that ALL PREACHING CEASE, ONE GOD be recognized in the MYSTERY of the TRINITY. … ” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”, Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus, c.366 AD – c. 384 AD, Reply to Question 26, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke)

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrosiaster-questions-and-answers-on-the-gospel-of-luke

 

The Mystery of whether all may be saved like this or some via ‘Believing after seeing’ too for these worst offenders against God seems possible via these quotes and whether true or not, let God Decide it One Day and we accept His Decision either way. I’m just writing to show this “possibility” and “not Doctrine” (as no one knows how authentic or not authentic these quotes are) but it certainly gives an insight into how the ‘First Jewish Christians’ who wrote these or preserved these understood the Lake of Fire.

 

 

END

Peace to you
Thank You!

 

 

 

 

 

Appendix V: Arguments against Full Universalism – FAQ

 

Question 1

 

People believing in hell teach that Jesus is the biggest hypocrite ever: “you believers love and forgive your enemies, but I will be exterminating or burning mine forever.” I never realized for so many years that I made Him into that, because I trusted translators of the Bible, instead of seeing if their words matched the originals.

 

Reply 1

 

Your understanding is shallow and your accusations false. Let me give a simple test to show how fake your Universalism love is just in words. God only allows even if Universalism  according to  righteous Judgment for example their spirit saved post Judgment but body + soul destroyed in Gehenna. If you think the wicked should inherit everything is true love, give yourself to be raped tortured and killed mercilessly. At the same time may your wife and daughter be also raped and tortured and killed slowly. And then give your inheritance and money willingly to those rapists and murderers. That’s what you’re asking God to do if any Universalist says the wicked should inherit the Kingdom. If none can do that, then it’s just fake hypocrisy and if you think you can do that, you are a liar. Sorry I had to put it harsh to make you understand the kind of men you are trying to give inheritance of the Kingdom. The Good non-Christians won’t go through such things seems more likely and simply taking such examples and trying to make up some pitiful argument doesn’t Work either as these may be surprised sheep of the Nations when saved . All these I have detailed out in the book. Cheers.

 

Question 2

 

How can God send these people to “Hell/Lake of Fire”?

 

“… But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:8, NKJV)

 

 

Reply 2

 

As per reply 1, these did “not” keep their “current body and soul” pure and hence “their body + soul” get destroyed in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). Even then, God may be Merciful enough to cause their ‘spirit to be saved’ despite all these (as 1 Peter 4:6 may echo). As for the phrase “unbelievers”, these may refer only to those who ‘refuse’ to believe even after seeing (as Book of 1Enoch Chapter 66/77 or Chapter 50 clearly describes such ones to exist) and Christ Own Words point in John 6:40 in the context of John 6:36 too first as detailed out in earlier pages.

 

Question 3

 

Jonathan Ramachandran Clearly, you do not know my views. Those who do not inherit in this life are not going to inherit the “kingdom”. That is reference to the coming millennial kingdom age Jonathan. It is one of the kingdoms of heaven, because the King will be ruling and reigning there. The lost will be resurrected to judgment in the “age of corrective pruning, chastismenet” as Matthew 25:46 shows us (kolasis aionion) the born again believers will be resurrected to life with Christ in the millennial kingdom age (zoen aionion). Clearly, that is not “eternal life in Christ” as is commonly taught. It is an age which ends after 1000 years. We ALL have eventual eternal life THROUGH Christ, when all are in submission to Him. As He then submits all to God and Father, who then become all in all. That is when eternal life begins. 1 Cor 15:22-28 is very clear on this my friend.

 

Reply 3

 

Eternal life doesn’t mean they get Resurrected body again my rapist supporting friend. It’s only Written that ‘their spirit’ may be saved in 1 Peter 4:4 – 6. (without body without soul which are destroyed in Matthew 10:28 as destroyed means into non-existence or else it’s not destroyed). The inherit my Kingdom only begins with the Millennial Reign and has “no” end as Blessed Archangel Gabriel Revealed in Luke 1:33. Also, the Lake of Fire occurs after the 1000 years Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7, Revelation 20:11 – 15) meaning that the Wicked are not punished bodily until then but only with their souls in Hades till then as Luke 16:19 – 31 Reveals.

 

 

 

 

Question 4

 

No one is exterminated in Matthew 10:28. Stop reading into the text what is not there. You keep saying body and soul is destroyed, but it NEVER says that. Read it again. It says fear the one “who is able” it never says the “one who does destroy” it only says the one who is able. Perhaps because English is your second language you are not reading this correctly.

 

 

Reply 4

 

If God is not going to destroy the body and soul, He  would not have warned it in Matthew 10:28.  To warn of something He doesn’t do is fake warning. The “able” part shows if they repent now, they escape it. Again your understanding even in English as primary language is truncated as 1 Peter 4:4 – 6 for example clearly reveals that the “Destruction of the Flesh” refers to “Body + Soul destroyed into non-existence” because in this same Verse only “their spirit” may live to God giving the possibility that they can be saved in “spirit-state” only. So we need to use other Verses like this to understand the full meaning possibly instead of teaching lies.

 

Question 5

 

Jonathan Ramachandran Have you watched the video yet? You are on the ‘Total Victory of Christ’ page, are you not watching the videos for the page, and only trolling there???

 

Reply 5

 

No Verse Says that the wicked will be given Body + Soul post Lake of Fire and so even if saved as per any Universalism Verses, the other Verses only point to ‘their spirit’ being saved post that final judgment (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, 1 Corinthians 5:5). So watching more videos is “not” going to change that.

 

 

 

 

Question 6

 

Jonathan Ramachandran You refuse on your own page to talk about UR doctrine, so we can have open discussion, but then come to these pages to try to sneak in your ECT and CI doctrine of Roman Catholicism. Just admit what you are doing.

 

Reply 6

 

Universalism for the spirit state only given to the wicked can be inferred in Scripture. Nothing more is Said. Whether God Decides anything more it is His Choice but it is “NOT” Written in Holy Scripture and so remains a speculation. You are deceiving people by saying the wicked will have body + soul and eventually enter the Kingdom of God which is NOT WRITTEN in any Bible Verses. Why not admit that?

 

Question 7

 

Jonathan Ramachandran It is good friends of mine who started and moderate ‘Total Victory of Christ’. I can see that I need to let them know what you have been up to, and that you don’t agree with and won’t watch the videos. Really very sad Jonathan, you seemed like an honest guy. 😢

 

Reply 7

 

I repeat, no verse says the wicked will have body + soul and only spirit saved is mentioned and so any Universalism argument should only point to that “possibility” only if they’re honest. I say Possibility because even if we are so sure of its meaning, we could be wrong if God Means something else and so better not to claim anything 100% regarding future Prophecies which haven’t come to pass and let God Decide One Day.

 

 

 

 

 

Question 8

 

Posting Bible verses that conflate literal and metaphorical, that disregard the ages, that do not reflect the hyperbolic language, and so forth, are not going to answer the questions.

 

Reply 8

 

No verse proves the Wicked gets a body and soul after Lake of Fire. You didn’t prove that at all. And the spirit returns to God only after this final judgment as 1 Peter 4:4 – 6 Reveals for the wicked as 1 Corinthians 5:5 calls it on the specific future timeline of “Day of Lord Jesus”.

We know that 1 Peter 4:4 – 6 refers to the timeline after Christ’s Second Coming has occurred and His Kingdom is established literally on earth and so “Judgment Day Context” as Judgment for the wicked is after they are resurrected only (John 5:28 – 29) before cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11 – 15) which is only at the end of the Millennial Reign (not start of it, Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7) as the exact phrase “Judge the Living and the Dead” occurs both in 1 Peter 4:5 and 2 Timothy 1:11 proving this Timeline and Context and so 1 Peter 4:6 (next Verse) describes clearly that this Judgment in the “flesh” (resurrection of Judgment for the wicked, John 5:29 with body + soul + spirit) causes eventually both the “body + soul” to be “destroyed” (non-existence) since 1 Peter 4:6 clearly mentioned that “their spirit” only may “live according to God” thereafter implying both “body + soul” is destroyed in the Lake of Fire for these.

The phrase “Gospel is Preached to the dead” in 1 Peter 4:6 just before this judgement happens supports the idea that ‘believing after seeing is possible’ but yet these ones only may get ‘their spirit’ saved as it is Written. Please notice also that “the dead” to whom the Gospel is Preached refers to them alive by then as the phrase is used in Revelation 20:11 – 15 calling them “the dead which are judged for their works” whilst “they stand first before the Great White Throne of Judgment” indicating consciousness.

This is how the Final Judgment is Described for them. Nothing more is Written in Scripture and are thus speculations and I am “not” too keen on “Unwritten” speculations.

 

Question 9

Jonathan Ramachandran The Lake of Fire is a scene of purification, not destruction. The only thing that dies there is death itself, because sin and evil are vanquished. When they are gone there is no more death. The word fire in Greek represents purification, it is a metaphor for God the consuming and purifying fire. And why is the Lamb of God present at the LOF? To take away the sin of the world.

 

Reply 9

 

The fire destroys body + soul (Matthew 10:28) leaving only “spirit to be saved” (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5).

 

Question 10

 

Again, Matthew 10:28 says not to be afraid of pagans who only have the power to eliminate a body, but have respect for God who “is able” to (if He chose to) also kill the soul. Nothing in 1 Peter or Corinthians 5 about death of any souls. The body returns to Earth at death, the flesh is temporal. Spirit and soul are eternal.

 

Reply 10

 

The human spirit can be eternal . Body destroyed is written in same context of soul destroyed in Matthew 10:28. 1 Peter 4:6 clearly proves this as after that resurrected judgement in the flesh only spirit may be saved and it’s not Written soul saved nor body saved post Final Judgment. I see “no” Verse you quoted to prove that the Wicked get a body or soul for “their spirit” after the Final Lake of Fire Judgment (Gehenna). You know why? It doesn’t exist. I am “not” interested in anything “not” Written including “your opinions”.

Yes, nothing more is Written and if God has something Further to Reveal on Judgment Day, I will accept it then, no worries.

 

Conclusion

 

Even if Hell Eternal Conscious torment or Annihilation completely is true for these ones, it’s perfectly fair because the damage they did cannot be erased in time either making its effect eternal as it changed the course of life on the affected ones they deceived forever. So even if other Bible Verses point to Universalism, it can at most only be understood as them being saved in the “spirit state” eventually after “their flesh” (body + soul is destroyed) which itself is already Great Mercy if God Allows it as echoed in some first Christianity Writings such as the Sibylline Oracles point to them living on “the other eternal life” thereafter (pointing to a distinct realm possibly this ‘spirit World’ state where after reformed thus, they sin no more there). Example Quote:

 

*Book II (2) of the “Christianized Sibyline Oracles” has a Prophecy where God Saves ‘some/all? the condemned eventually’ from “Gehenna/Lake of Fire” after a long time due to the ‘Prayer of Christians’ for them, to quote:

“… for a long day will God make. And to the pious will the almighty God 405 Imperishable grant another thing, When they shall ask the imperishable God: That he will suffer men from raging fire And endless gnawing anguish to be saved; And this will he do. For hereafter he 410 Will pluck them from the restless flame, elsewhere Remove them, and for his own people’s sake Send them to other and eternal life With the immortals, in Elysian field, …” (Sibyline Oracles, Book II, 297-322, p. 51)

Translation Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib04.htm

 

I repeat with Emphasis:

 

“… for a long day will God make. And to the pious will the Almighty God 405 Imperishable grant another thing, When they shall ask the imperishable God: That He [God] will suffer [SAVE] men from RAGING FIRE And ENDLESS GNAWING ANGUISH to be SAVED; And THIS WILL HE [God] DO. For hereafter He [God] 410 Will PLUCK THEM [Wicked] from the RESTLESS FLAME, elsewhere REMOVE THEM [Wicked, the ‘thirsty’ from the ‘Lake of Fire’], and for His own people’s sake [His Bride, Revelation 22:17] Send them to OTHER [Outside Regions of the Kingdom of the Heavens, Matthew 5:19] and ETERNAL LIFE WITH THE IMMORTALS, in Elysian field, …” (Sibyline Oracles, Book II, 297-322, p. 51)

 

Comment: If this Prophecy is true (as it was widely accepted in First Christianity) then the phrase “… other and eternal life With the immortals, in Elysian field …” may explain the “spirit-state” salvation meant in 1 Peter 4:6 to be different as described as “another place” in the above called the “… Elysian field …”  (which can accommodate these spirits in eternal life) where the IMMORTALS refers separately as “Christians” where this distinction from ‘eternal life type of salvation only’ can mean that only the “Immortals” (have all three body + soul + spirit saved) as opposed to these in ‘spirit-state only’ in comparison.

Please note that this explanation does “NOT” need this ‘Sibyline Oracles’ quote to be true as Matthew 10:28 together with 1 Peter 4:4 – 6 & 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 and  1 Corinthians 5:5 itself is sufficient for it.

That is why CHRIST HIMSELF Teaches this Context for the Entire Gospel  when He Declares to “Preach the Kingdom of Heaven” because the Grace of God for one to ‘Enter the Kingdom of Heaven’ will only be available through Christ’s Work and Atonement as the Gospel Teaches.

 

In order to understand Christ’s Rich Man and Lazarus Story  (Luke 16:19 – 31), please notice that the ‘Rich Man was clearly sent to Hell/Punishment Regions of Hades’ for the sole reason of ‘enjoying prosperity + not doing any Charity Doctrine toward the beggar Lazarus’

 

In comparison, getting into the ‘comfort regions’ vs ‘punishment regions’ with one’s soul based on the ‘Charity Doctrine Aspect’ is already possible even without Christ’s Work and Atonement as again CHRIST HIMSELF Revealed in Luke 16:19 – 31 if we view Scripture literally as it is Written here (Please also don’t forget the ‘Transfiguration experience where Prophet Moses and  Prophet Elijah appeared too in Matthew 17:3 or Prophet Samuel being conscious in the Soul-state in 1 Samuel 28:13 – 20 proving that there is “no” soul sleep but the souls are in their allocated regions in the Spirit World likewise):

“… From that time JESUS BEGAN TO PREACH, and to say, REPENT: for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is at hand. …” (Matthew 4:17, NKJV)

Note: When Christ Spoke Matthew 4:17, the ‘Comfort Regions of Hades/Sheol called Abraham’s Bosom for example’ already exists (Luke 16:19 – 31, Prophets Moses and Elijah being conscious in there too, Matthew 17:3 and so was Prophet Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:13 – 20).

“… 1Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. …” (Matthew 17:1 – 3, NKJV)

 

“… 13And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a[a] spirit ascending out of the earth.” 14So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.15Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.” 16Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17And the Lord has done for [b]Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.” …” (1 Samuel 28:13 – 19, NKJV)

 

This itself points strongly contextually by CHRIST’S OWN MOST BLESSED WORDS that “… the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is at hand. …” which “…  JESUS BEGAN TO PREACH …” which required “… REPENTance (on earth itself, implied) …”  does NOT include the Context of Repenting/being Saved in Hades/Sheol Regions as the word “at hand” points to it ‘not happening yet, so refers something to not existing yet until after His Work on His Cross’.

Indeed, as St. Justin Martyr and the rest have pointed out, only with a “Bodily Resurrection” we can “Enter that Kingdom of Heaven” which Christians are Promised to Inherit (1 Corinthians 15 details it out).

 

“… The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that THEY MAY HAVE LIFE, and that they may HAVE IT MORE ABUNDANTLY. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 10:10, NKJV)

Comment: Christ Describes that His Coming is to “Give Life” where in the Context of all these, for the “Sheep” which is addressed to above (they are already having “life” in the Comfort Regions with their soul in say Abraham’s Bosom) and then now they have it “abundantly, to the fullest” in the “Kingdom of Heaven” next in their Final Bodily Resurrection as other Verses describe (e.g. Revelation 21:24 – 27) being least vs greatest (a gradation among those who are called to inherit it too, Matthew 5:19 – 20).

 

This Verse does ”not” apply to the Wicked as it’s only addressed to the ‘sheep’ which could include the ‘Surprised Saved Sheep on Judgment Day who Practiced the Charity Doctrine’ to Christians (Matthew 25:31 – 46) who could be the “nations who are saved” and “kings of the earth” who “visit” the “New Jerusalem City” (where Christian Salvation is) bringing their honour and glory to it as Revelation 21:24 – 27 points to them as inheriting the ‘new earth only’ (implied).

 

In the Context of Christ making “all who die in Adam to be alive” too (1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23), the wicked may only be saved in the ‘spirit-state’ as 1 Peter 4:6 clearly points post judgment. So they are “alive” but without having a body nor a soul, they cannot enter nor see the kingdom of heaven (the final new earth and heavens, Revelation 21:1 – 2) just like in analogy those in the ‘spirit world’ punishment compartments of Hades now (Luke 16:19 – 31) cannot see the ‘current earth’ nor the ‘current heaven either’.

These ‘saved spirits’ may thus live on some ‘spirit world locations*’ with “no” more punishment but no extravagant splendor either as the past case of the ‘formerly disobedient spirits in prison’ may have been converted by Christ as described in 1 Peter 3: 18 – 20.

 

 

Summary – Here are Bible Verses “only” for each claim made here

 

Example of a Full-Universalism False Teaching (for comparison):

‘… Look at the final chapter of Revelation. It is a scene of the eternal city, and the gates are open, and who is at the gate? All of the unrighteous who have come through the LOF judgment. And what is happening? The bride is there inside with the Spirit and inviting the lost to “come” wash their robes and take of the water of life freely. There are no more words of judgment, wailing, gnashing of teeth, or suffering, regarding those at the gate. Why is the gate open? Why is there a washing of robes (plynontes stolas) that is happening? The bride is surely not inviting herself to come in Jonathan. The LOF has finished. None have perished. Not my opinion. That is scripture  …’

 

Example of a Full Refutation of that False Full-Universalism Claim:

That is completely “not” Written.  Please allow me to correct your ‘dirty illusions’ with what is Written as follows:

 

1. Not everyone enters the Kingdom of God

 

Only those “whose names are Written in the Book of Life” may “wash their robes” and “enter that City’s Gates” while the ‘ones who have their names not Written in the Book of Life & was cast into the Lake of Fire’ are NEVER allowed to ENTER at all in this ‘same verse’ you tried to quote to twist it but failed:

 

“… 14Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may ENTER THE CITY by the gates. 15OUTSIDE are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. …” (Revelation 22:14 – 15, NASB)

 

In the other Manuscript the phrase “wash their robes” is not used but “do His Commandments” is Written where combining both we see that ‘washing robes = doing His Commandments’ and NOT ‘washed in the Lake of Fire’:

 

“… 14Blessed are those who [g]DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may ENTER THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY. 15[h]But OUTSIDE are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. …” (Revelation 22:14 – 15, NKJV)

2. Those cast into the Lake of Fire NEVER enter into the City’s Gates

 

“… And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. …” (Revelation 20:15, NKJV)

 

“… 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:6 – 8, NKJV)

 

Note: Second Death means something must fully cease to exist or be destroyed which Matthew 10:28 points to as both ‘Body and Soul’ where only ‘the spirit’ has a chance of being ‘saved’ as we shall show further at the end.

 

So all these (below) will NEVER enter into the CITY as their NAMES are NOT WRITTEN in the BOOK of LIFE:

 

“… But there shall by NO MEANS ENTER IT anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO are WRITTEN in the LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE …” (Revelation 21:27, NKJV)

 

3. There seems to be three groups of people in the end

 

“… 6And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. 7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:6 – 8, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Three groups of people seem to mentioned distinctly and compared here namely:

 

1. i) Christians whose Faith Overcomes the World with Doing His Commandments who alone become ‘His Sons’ who “inherit” all of the Kingdom in some way.

 

1. ii) Possible non-Christians who are relatively good but are sinners and only saved on Judgment Day (as they are still thirsting there, for ‘truth’ or ‘to believe after seeing’).

 

iii) The ones whose names are “not” in the Book of Life and were cast into the Lake of Fire and hence NEVER enter the City

 

Please allow me to repeat the above with Bible Verses attached for each ‘possible’ claim:

 

1. i) Christians whose Faith Overcomes the World with Doing His Commandments who alone become ‘His Sons’ who “inherit” all of the Kingdom in some way:

 

“… 7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son …” (Revelation 21:7, NKJV)

“… For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. …” (1 John 5:4, NKJV)

“… 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the REVEALING of the SONS OF GOD. …” (Romans 8:19, NKJV)

 

This is the Reward for those Christians who have Practiced ‘Loving your enemy’ to the extend of GIVING LITERAL MONEY and HELPS (Charity Doctrine Lifestyle) toward ENEMIES even (and NOT toward same family, same church, same race, same religion only) as Christ Himself Declared this “Condition” in the Gospel Command below clearly in order to have that ‘specific faith’ to become “SONS of GOD (the Most High)” below:

“… But LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, DO GOOD, and LEND, HOPING NOTHING IN RETURN; and your reward will be great, and YOU WILL BE SONS OF THE MOST HIGH For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. …” (Luke 6:35, NKJV)

Comment: So those who never practice the above in their lives prior (such as those who are cast into the Lake of Fire) are NOT part of those who ‘inherit all things’ and hence cannot enter the City.

1. ii) Possible non-Christians who are relatively good but are sinners and only saved on Judgment Day (as they are still thirsting there, for ‘truth’ or to ‘believe after seeing’)

 

“… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Revelation 21:6, NKJV)

 

Note: Christians are saved 1000 years earlier in the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6) and thus cannot be ‘thirsty anymore’ being His Immortal Bride by then (John 6:35) and so these “rest of the dead” (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7) which still contains “anyone who thirsts” at that timeline post Lake of Fire as Book of Life is Revealed clearly (Revelation 20:11 – 15) may thus most likely refer to the ‘Surprised Sheep’ of the non-Christians type who are only Saved on Judgment Day  because they did the Charity Doctrine Acts to Christians (Matthew 25:31 – 46). Please compare the ‘Believing after Seeing’ (John 6:40) to be ‘possibly’ equal to the Giving of “… WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Revelation 21:6) Context above as follows:

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall NEVER THIRST. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

Yes the definition of “unbelievers” may only refer to those who have “seen Christ” but yet choose not to believe as His Words Echo here “… 36But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.  …” (John 6:36, NKJV). In this same Topic/Context, Christ Continues “… 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. … 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” …” (John 6:37, 40, NKJV) which since He Contrast with John 6:36 it may point to the “believing after seeing Him” as John 6:40 calls it the “Will of the Father” which causes “Everlasting Life” which can refer to Spirit World Salvation (1 Peter 4:6 too) because some may “See Him” only after they die and this Salvation is Said to be available till the “Last Day” (in John 6:40).   The “Last Day” is the Judgment Day Timeline and so these are all ‘Possible’ with these Scriptures quoted here when ‘combined’. Please notice carefully at the start that ‘John 6:35’ defines the context of “being thirsty” as someone who has “not believed yet”.

This Context is very strong  because Revelation 21 further mentions that as the “Nations (or GENTILES) who are Saved” (implying just on Judgment Day) having their names too in the “Book of Life” below (Revelation 21:27):

 

“…. 24And the NATIONS [n]of THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” (Revelation 21: 24 – 27, NKJV)

 

Please notice that these are ‘saved on earth’ possibly to inherit it (Matthew 5:5, Matthew 5:7) as they are contrasted to “enter the City” to “Visit” it ‘from the New earth clearly’ (Revelation 21:1).

 

“… 5Blessed are the MEEK, For they shall INHERIT THE [a]EARTH. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7Blessed are the MERCIFUL,

For they shall OBTAIN MERCY.  …” (Matthew 5:5, 7, NKJV)

 

So these could be the ones who “who WASH THEIR ROBES,/do HIS COMMANDS” (Revelation 22:14) in some way especially the Charity Doctrine Commands toward Christians when the least of Christ’s Brethren was ‘… Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ (as Matthew 25:31 – 46 Records) which may be sufficient since this is the Greatest Command of God (Mark 12:29 – 31) which Fulfills “All Law” (Galatians 5:14) as Christ’s Answer for ‘What to do to inherit Eternal Life?’ where ‘inherit’ indicates getting some part of the kingdom too in Luke 10:25 – 37 in the Parable of the Good Samaritan may match too as Described likewise there as a ‘Samaritan’ can represent a ‘non-Christian’ (John 4:7, 21 – 22) and the ‘Jew’ he helped with Charity Doctrine Acts could represent the ‘Christian’ (as Christian are spiritual Jews, Romans 2:28 – 29) which seems to match perfectly if we takes these Verses literally.

 

Also the fact that these particular “thirsty ones” only “wash their robes” on this Judgment Day Timeline which is 1000 years after the Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7) in Revelation 22:14 with Revelation 21:6 can mean that ‘their robes were not perfect, impure meaning they didn’t keep all His Commandments like Christians did in contrast of 1000 years earlier Wedding of the Lamb is Described with Christian Garment as Perfect white with “no” washing needed in Revelation19:7 – 9’, please compare:

 

1. a) Good non-Christians with imperfect keeping of God’s Commands as per the Good Samaritan parable too with Robes not so perfect AFTER Judgment Day and Lake of Fire Revealed

 

“… 14Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may ENTER THE CITY by the gates.  …” (Revelation 22:14, NASB)

 

“… 14Blessed are those who [g]DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may ENTER THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY. …” (Revelation 22:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

1. b) Christians Saved in the First Resurrection having ‘Perfect White Robes by keeping His Commands of the Saints’ shared toward all collectively needing “no” washing at all and are Gathered 1000 years BEFORE Judgment Day/Lake of Fire is Revealed

 

“… 7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be ARRAYED IN FINE LINEN, CLEAN AND BRIGHT, for the FINE LINEN is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS. 9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” . …” (Revelation 19:7 – 9, NKJV)

 

1. c) Perhaps the Spirit (God) and the Bride (Christians) call lovingly toward these imperfect ‘thirsty’ non-Christians at that time to ‘take the Water of Life Freely’ where ‘thirsty can refer to ‘believing after seeing’ or finding truth in the end because John 6:35 also mentions being ‘thirsty’ as ‘either not believing or not believing fully and/or something not perfected yet’ as per the ‘washing of robes or imperfect keeping of God’s Commands’ may reflect with Verses discussed earlier:

 

“… And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. …” – apostle John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

Where possibly:

 

The Spirit = God

 

The Bride = Christians

 

“who thirsts” = some non-Christians who are being Saved on Judgment Day (e.g. Revelation 21:24 – 27’s ‘nations who are saved with kings of earth inheriting the New Earth’, Matthew 25:31 – 46’s Surprised Sheep of the Nations, Isaiah 45:21 – 23’s those ‘Look to Me and be Saved (Isiah 45:22) by bowing their knees and confessing to God Isaiah 44:23 getting His Righteousness Imputed there as Isaiah 45:24 points as ‘believing after seeing’, Revelation 22:14’s ‘wash their robes type or imperfect keeping of God’s Commands type’ or Revelation 21:6’s “one who is thirsty (imperfect in believing as John 6:35 not-believing to ‘being thirsty’) also to ‘enter the City and take the Water of Life Freely).

 

 

iii) The ones whose names are “not” in the Book of Life and were cast into the Lake of Fire and hence NEVER enter the City

 

“… 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:6 – 8, NKJV)

 

“… And anyone NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST into the LAKE OF FIRE. …” (Revelation 20:15, NKJV)

 

“… 27But there shall by NO MEANS ENTER IT anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” (Revelation 21:27, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

4. Universalism Hope for the Wicked seems to point only to being saved in the spirit-state

 

1. i) A Spirit does “not have body and no soul”

 

The spirit-state is a separate state of existence as Christ Himself Echoed indirectly here as the Context is ‘some apostles thought that they were seeing a ‘Ghost’ which is a ‘spirit-state existence’ which Christ does “not” say it’s impossible but Says that He is “not” in that spirit-state but rather in a “Resurrection Body” when He Came back to Life Majestically), Verses:

 

“… 36Now as they said these things, JESUS HIMSELF stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “PEACE TO YOU.” 37But they were terrified and frightened, and SUPPOSED THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE …” (Luke 24:36 – 39, NKJV)

 

1. ii) Seeing the Risen Christ like the above may account for the less-blessed Believing after Seeing Case

 

“… 24Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have SEEN THE LORD.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.” 26And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” 29JESUS said to him, [f]“Thomas, BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEEN ME, YOU HAVE BELIEVED. BLESSED are those who have NOT SEEN and YET HAVE BELIEVED.” …” (John 20:24 – 29, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

iii) Believing after Seeing in Hades (Hell now) Possibility

 

The ancient ‘disobedient’ “spirits in prison” to whom Christ Preached to when He Died on the Cross may likewise ‘believe after seeing Him’ in the ‘Spirit World’, Verses:

 

“… 18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the SPIRITS in PRISON, 20who FORMERLY were DISOBEDIENT, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.  …” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

Note: The righteous spirits were “not in prison” (but in comfort regions as Abraham’s Bosom as Christ Taught in Luke 16:19 – 31) and the context here refers to “Disobedient” ones which cannot refer to the ‘Old Testament righteous’.

 

1. iv) Believing after Seeing on Judgment Day (Lake of Fire/Gehenna/ Hell later) Possibility

 

“…   4In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking EVIL of you. 5THEY will give an account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

Note: In Greek, Verse 6 and Verse 5’s “the dead” reads the same but translators add ‘who are dead’. Example:

 

Berean Literal Bible

For to this END the GOSPEL was PROCLAIMED even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God.

Source: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

 

“… because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” …” (Acts 17:31, NKJV)

 

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

 

“… And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

 

Can you see it? Please compare:

 

1. a) The phrase “… who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD …” refers to JUDGMENT DAY Timeline at His Appearing and Kingdom means (as the Wicked are only Judged Bodily then)

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

 

“… 7Now WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE EXPIRED, … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I SAW THE DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, STANDING BEFORE [c]GOD, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books. …  15And ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. …” (Revelation 20:7, 11 – 12, 15, NKJV)

 

“… 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. …” (John 5:28 – 29, NKJV)

 

“… And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. …”(Daniel 12:2, NKJV)

 

1. b) Those who Rise to a ‘Resurrection of Judgment/Condemnation’ to ‘Everlasting Contempt’ when this happens “… who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. …” seem to have BOTH their BODY and SOUL DESTROYED into non-existence but THEIR SPIRIT may LIVE or BE SAVED in this DAY of LORD JESUS thereafter

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

 

“…   4In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking EVIL of you. 5THEY will give an account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

 

Comment: The phrase “… who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD.  …” (1 Peter 4:6) above and in “… who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1) puts both of these to occur in the same Timeline.

 

In short, please consider for clarity:

 

1. a) Man is made up of “Body, Soul and Spirit”

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself SANCTIFY you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

 

1. b) Judgment Day Context of Lake of Fire:

 

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will JUDGE THE LIVING and THE DEAD at HIS APPEARING and HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

 

 

1. c) Lake of Fire only destroys “Body and Soul”

 

“… And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NKJV)

 

 

1. d) Their “spirit” may live if God Wills (in the ‘spirit-state’ with “no” body “nor” soul)

 

“… 5THEY will give an account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. 6For this reason the GOSPEL was PREACHED also to those who are DEAD, that they might be JUDGED according to men in the FLESH, but LIVE according to God in the SPIRIT. …” (1 Peter 4:5 – 6, NKJV)

 

“… To deliver such an one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the FLESH, that THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED in the DAY of the LORD JESUS .. …” (1 Corinthians 5:5, KJV)

 

1. e) Gospel (Good News) may be Preached on Judgment Day toward “the Dead” where they get Judged in their Resurrected Bodies and their flesh (body + soul) is destroyed making them to “live in the spirit-state” only in the end

“… And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

“… For to this END the GOSPEL was PROCLAIMED even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God. …” (1 Peter 4:6, Berean Literal Bible) Source: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

Appendix VI: Possible Hope for non-Christians who were Good to Christians to Believe after Seeing as the Mystery of the one who Thirsts

 

There seems to be “Possible” Hope for non-Christians who were Good toward Christians and Practiced the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle toward them – as I call it the Mystery of the “one who thirsts” in this final discussion. Please consider the following points:

 

1) The one “WHO THIRSTS” is finally Saved and gets the Water of Life FREELY!

 

“… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Revelation 21:6, NKJV)

 

2) The one who “Washes His Robes” = “Do His Commandments” at that time can refer to an imperfect keeping of God’s Commandments hence the word “Wash” is used as these two Manuscript Traditions use these two different Words and could refer to non-Christians

 

“… 14Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may ENTER THE CITY by the gates. 15OUTSIDE are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. …” (Revelation 22:14 – 15, NASB)

 

“… 14Blessed are those who [g]DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may ENTER THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY. 15[h]But OUTSIDE are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. …” (Revelation 22:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

Comment: This is unlikely to refer to Christians who already Participate in the Marriage of the Lamb which was 1000 years before Judgment Day with the Millennial Reign

 

“… 7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8And to her it was granted to be ARRAYED IN FINE LINEN, CLEAN AND BRIGHT, for the FINE LINEN is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS. 9Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” . …” (Revelation 19:7 – 9, NKJV)

3) The “BRIDE” is distinctly mentioned as “DIFFERENT” from the “ONE WHO THIRSTS” she and God Invites to “… TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …”

 

“… And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – apostle John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

 

Possibility here is that

The Spirit = God

The Bride = Christians

the “ONE WHO THIRSTS” = non-Christians who are Saved only on Judgment Day

 

 

4) The “Nations who are Saved” on “Judgment Day” can refer to “some non-Christians” who are Saved to inherit the New Earth who VISIT the CITY of God where the BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE is referring to “Christians”

 

“… Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” (Revelation 21:8 – 10, 24 – 27, NKJV)

 

“… just as CHRIST also LOVED THE CHURCH and gave Himself for her, 26that He might [g]sanctify and cleanse her with the WASHING OF WATER by the WORD, 27that He might present her to Himself a GLORIOUS CHURCH, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. …  be JOINED TO HIS WIFE, and the TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 32This is a GREAT MYSTERY, but I SPEAK CONCERNING CHRIST AND THE CHURCH …” (Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32, NKJV)

 

 

5) The Elect Salvation is Complete in the First Resurrection and Millennial Reign mortals are only Saved on Judgment Day when He Judges them together with the rest of all Nations based on the Charity Doctrine which one Practiced to Christ’s Brethren

 

“… 4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION. OVER SUCH THE SECOND DEATH has NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS. ….” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, NKJV)

 

“… There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the SINNER being an hundred years old shall be accursed. …” (Isaiah 65:20, KJV)

 

“…  31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘LORD, WHEN DID WE SEE YOU HUNGRY and FEED YOU, OR THIRSTY AND GIVE YOU DRINK? 38When did we SEE YOU A STRANGER AND TAKE YOU IN, or NAKED AND CLOTHE YOU? 39Or when did we see YOU SICK, OR IN PRISON, AND COME TO YOU?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘ASSUREDLY, I SAY TO YOU, INASMUCH AS YOU DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DID IT TO ME.’ 41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I WAS HUNGRY AND YOU GAVE ME NO FOOD; I WAS THIRSTY AND YOU GAVE ME NO DRINK; 43I WAS A STRANGER and YOU DID NOT TAKE ME IN, NAKED and YOU DID NOT CLOTHE ME, SICK and IN PRISON AND YOU DID NOT VISIT ME.’ 44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when DID WE SEE YOU HUNGRY or THIRSTY OR A STRANGER OR NAKED OR SICK or in PRISON, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as YOU DID NOT DO IT to one of the least of these, you DID NOT DO IT TO ME.’ 46And THESE WILL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:31 – 46, NKJV)

 

“… 46While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” …” (Matthew 12: 46 – 50, NKJV)

 

“… And the KING will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as YOU DID IT to ONE OF THE LEAST of THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DI IT TO ME.’ …” (Matthew 25:40, NKJV)

 

 

“…40“He who receives you receives Me, … 41He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:40 – 42, highlighted phrases, NKJV)

 

 

Comment: The phrase “…40“He who receives you receives Me, …” (Matthew 10:40) might be the same meaning as “… 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren [Christians before the Millennial Reign & Millennial Reign mortal Jews], ye have done it unto me. …” (Matthew 25:40). Can you see this Possibility?

 

Also the phrase “…  40For he who is not against us is on our side …” (Mark 9:40) where Christ Generalizes beyond the ‘Believing in Christ miracle worker from another denomination analogy’ (Mark 9:39) to include even those “… 41For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. …” (Mark 9:41) points to this possibility too as good non-Christians who are kind to Christians being ‘not against them’ may ‘actually be on their side’ & hence inherit this Mercy & Reward shown to them as these Verses could mean that directly when taken together.

 

 

6) Some non-Christians may get a chance to be Saved on Judgment Day via Believing after Seeing Possibility

 

 

“… 22“LOOK TO ME, and BE SAVED,

All you ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.

23I have sworn by Myself;

The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,

And shall not return,

That to Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW,

EVERY TONGUE SHALL TAKE AN OATH.

24He shall say,

[g]‘Surely IN THE LORD I HAVE RIGHTEOUSNESS and strength.

To Him MEN SHALL COME,

And all shall be ashamed

Who are incensed against Him. …” (Isaiah 45:22 – 24, KJV)

Comment: The Context is Judgment Day when God Declares “… That to Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL TAKE AN OATH. …” as He Declares Salvation “… 22“LOOK TO ME, and BE SAVED, …” by Imputing “His Righteousness” upon all who eventually DO IT there as these phrases mean “… Surely IN THE LORD I HAVE RIGHTEOUSNESS and strength. …” for those who Turn only at that Timeline as this phrase indicates “… To Him MEN SHALL COME, …”.

 

It’s “Possible”, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

7) Mystery of the “… ONE WHO THIRSTS. …” to Possibly refer to the Believing After Seeing Possibility too for some non-Christians on Judgment Day

The one who “THIRSTS” refers to those ‘who have NOT BELIEVED in Christ yet’ (hence they are “THIRSTY”)

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall NEVER THIRST. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

“… And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – apostle John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

“… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Revelation 21:6, NKJV)

 

Contrast: Christians cannot be the “THIRSTY” ones on Judgment Day/Lake of Fire Timeline Verses above simply because they ALREADY HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT even Resurrected 1000 years earlier in the Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:4 – 6) and so CANNOT be THIRSTY at that time as per Verses below toward Christians who only “THIRST on EARTH” till “THEY BELIEEVE in HIM before they die”, Verses:

“… 37On the LAST DAY, that great day of the feast, JESUS stood and cried out, saying, “IF ANYONE THIRSTS, let him come to Me and drink. 38He WHO BELIEVES IN ME, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [g]believing in Him would receive; for the [h]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. …” (John 7:37 – 39, NKJV)

Note: The phrase “Last Day” in John 6 and 7 Verses can also Speak metaphorically especially since John 6:40 contains this “Possibility” of “BELIEVING AFTER SEEING” clearly in the Context of the “… ONE WHO THIRSTS. …” till the “… “LAST DAY” …” (John 6:40 & John 7:37) metaphor found in both these Verses which may indicate that such a Hope may be available on Judgment Day for some as these quoted Verses in Revelation here also seem to agree as the “BRIDE” or Christians are mentioned to be different (in Revelation 22:17) mysteriously.

 

4) What if my interpretation is Wrong?

 

I could be wrong but that’s the ‘possibility’ I see with these quoted Scripture as it is Written:

 

The Final Warning regarding the ‘Book of Revelation’:

 

“… 18[i]For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If ANYONE ADDS TO THESE THINGS, [j]GOD will ADD TO HIM the PLAGUES that are written in this book; 19and IF ANYONE TAKES AWAY FROM THE WORDS of the book of this prophecy, GOD[k] SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART FROM THE [l]BOOK OF LIFE, FROM THE HOLY CITY, and FROM THE THINGS which are WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. …” (Revelation 22:18 – 19, NKJV)

 

One Final Example:

You are conflating the events at the valley of Hinnom at the time of Jesus, with the lake of fire judgment in a coming age. These are two totally different events!

 

Explanation

 

Nope you are confused with Preterism errors. s Mark 9:42 itself sets the Context of all who believe in Him and Mark 9:49 says everyone will feel this Gehenna fire including Christians (but it will not harm them as Revelation 20:4 – 6) mentions. If preterism is true, then not everyone is salted with fire (meaning every human being) which contradicts Mark 9:49 which one verse earlier speaks of this final “Gehenna/Lake of Fire” to have have “worm that does not die and fire not quenched”. This Context is clear with the phrase “Enter the Kingdom of God too” in Mark 9:47 which doesn’t refer to those of that timeline only as Preterism errs but from all timelines and hence can only refer to the Lake of Fire Final Judgment Context. Lake of Fire extends beyond the 1000 years (Revelation 20:11 – 15) even when the 1000 years are over as Revelation 10:7 Says.

 

 

 

 

 

Comment: That’s why I only state my views as a “possibility” and “not doctrine” and I can be considered as “one who thirsts” if wrong. As I could be wrong, please notice carefully that you could be wrong too but the difference being that if you ‘claim that you are 100% right’ where that’s dangerous if you turn out to be wrong due to the ‘measure of judgment’ you ‘judged others if they were wrong’ (Matthew 7:1 – 3) together with the Curse outlined with Verse above, the outcome doesn’t look good.

Hence a “discussion” is all this is and “not” Doctrine. May God have Mercy with whom He Wills (Romans 9:15).

.

END

Peace to you
Thank You!

Done: 20 December 2021

 

 

 

 

Bible Mystery – Possible Canonical Book candidate – Wisdom of Solomon Book

 

Source Post:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161359354292784

 

Disclaimer: I am “not” stating that this Book must be included in the Bible but some Bible Traditions do from First Christianity itself and please allow me to present its case in some way here.

 

1) Is “Wisdom of Solomon” Quoted in the Bible? This is what caught my attention to it as Mr. Ron wrote below:

 

“… WISDOM OF SOLOMON 2:

12. Let us therefore lie in wait for the just; because He is not for our turn, & He is contrary to our doings, & upbraideth us with our transgressions of the law, & divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life. 13. He boasteth that He hath the knowledge of God, & calleth Himself the Son of God.

 

MAT. 27:40

…If Thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

 

WISDOM OF SOLOMON 2:

16. We are esteemed of Him as counterfeits. He abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness. He pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, & maketh His boast that God is His Father. 17. Let us see if His words be true. And let us prove what shall happen in the end of Him. 18. For if the just man be the Son of God; He will help Him, & deliver Him from the hand of His enemies.

 

MAT. 27:43

He trusted in God. Let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him. For he said: “I am the Son of God.”

 

WISDOM OF SOLOMON 2:

19. Let us examine Him with despitefulness & torture, that we may know His meekness, & prove His patience.
20. Let us condemn Him with a shameful death…

 

Obviously, W.O.S. chapter 2 contains prophecy of Christ’s undeserved death. And, obviously, that prophecy is inspired by God. …” – Mr. Ron R. D.

 

The most important question is this: “Why would the Bible Verses above quote it?

 

1. i) In both quotes above, it is the Pharisees who are quoting it meaning that it’s part of a conversation. This means the Bible is “not” necessarily endorsing it as “Prophecy” nor as Scripture.

 

1. ii) The Bible could be quoting it as “Scripture” since Christ is to Fulfill them and these words used by the Pharisees are thus foretold like that.

 

iii) Regardless, this Book of Wisdom most likely was Written before Christ because in Verses above itself the Pharisees are seen in their conversation quoting it.

 

2) Jewish View

 

History of the Book of Wisdom / Wisdom of Solomon – Jewish View endorses that it was “Written before Christ” especially since it is found in the “Septuagint” (did you notice? Next quote)

 

“… Apocryphal book written in Alexandria about the middle of the first century B.C. That it was composed in Greek by an Alexandrian Jew has been conclusively shown by Freudenthal (“J. Q. R.” iii. 722-753). The book has neither an introductory verse nor a regular conclusion. In fact, it consists of three independent parts which have no real connection, and which treat of subjects altogether different, a fact clearly recognized by Bretschneider, Eichhorn, and others, but disputed by Grimm (“Kurzgefasstes Exegetisches Handbuch zu den Apocryphen des Alten Testaments,” vi. 9-24, Leipsic, 1860) and his followers. …”

 

Source:

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14951-wisdom-of-solomon-book-of-the

 

3) Early Jewish Christian View

 

“… ] It is one of the seven Sapiential or wisdom books in the Septuagint, the others being Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs (Song of Solomon), Job, and Sirach. It is included in the deuterocanonical books by the Catholic Church and the anagignoskomena (Gr. ἀναγιγνωσκόμενα, meaning “those which are to be read”) of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Most Protestants consider it part of the Apocrypha … Melito of Sardis[7] in the 2nd century AD, Augustine[8] (c. 397 AD) and Pope Innocent I (405 AD)[9][10] considered Wisdom of Solomon as part of the Old Testament. Athanasius writes that the Book of Wisdom along with three other deuterocanonical books, while not being part of the Canon, “were appointed by the Fathers to be read”.[11] Epiphanius of Salamis (c. 385 AD) mentions that the Wisdom of Solomon was of disputed canonicity.[12] According to the monk Rufinus of Aquileia (c. 400 AD) the Book of Wisdom was categorized as “ecclesiastical” rather than “canonical”.[13] The Book of Wisdom was listed as canonical by the Council of Rome (382 AD),[14] the Synod of Hippo (393),[15] the Council of Carthage (397) and the Council of Carthage (419),[16][17] the Council of Florence (in 1442)[18] and the Council of Trent (in 1546).[19] …”

 

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Wisdom

 

4) Interesting Verses

 

1. i) Wisdom does “not” enter a soul which is wicked within

 

“… [4] For  . …  [27] And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets. [28] For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom.” (Wisdom of Solomon 4:1, 7:27 – 28, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Comment: The author, believed to be King Solomon himself had wisdom even though he was sining, right? That probably can be explained by another Verse below by him too:

 

“… 8I also amassed for myself silver and gold, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I provided for myself male and female singers, and the PLEASURES OF THE SONS OF MANKIND: MANY CONCUBINES. 9Then I became great and increased more than all who preceded me in Jerusalem. My WISDOM ALSO STOOD BY ME. …” – King Solomon (Ecclesiastes 2:8 – 9, NASB)

 

So, King Solomon must have been a special case where despite sinning, he may have wrote few Inspired Scripture (Proverb, Songs of Songs, Ecclesiastes) and possibly even this “Wisdom of Solomon” Book too. Yes, it’s unsure whether he repented or not but regardless, he was “BELOVED” of GOD, Verse:

 

“… Did not SOLOMON KING OF ISRAEL SIN by THESE THINGS? Yet among many nations there was no king like him, WHO WAS BELOVED OF HIS GOD; and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless PAGAN WOMEN CAUSED EVEN HIM TO SIN. …” – Blessed Prophet Nehemiah (Nehemiah 13:26, NKJV)

 

1. ii) The Souls of the Wicked are pointed to be “not” immortal in comparison

 

“… [23] For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. [24] Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 2:23 – 24, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Note: KJV (King James Version has a translation of it as for them it’s part of Apocrypha). Please notice that for Roman Catholics or early Christians, this “Wisdom of Solomon” was in “their Bible” all along till Martin Luther (Protestant reformer) removed it following after  Jewish tradition of it.

 

iii) The Souls of the Righteous are given “Immortality” eventually after earthly death

 

“… 1] But the SOULS OF THE RIGHTEOUS are in the hand of God, and there shall NO TORMENT TOUCH THEM. [2] In the sight of the unwise THEY SEEMED TO DIE: and their departure is taken for misery, [3] And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace. [4] For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is THEIR HOPE FULL OF IMMORTALITY. [5] And having been a little chastised, they shall be GREATLY REWARDED: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself. [6] As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 3:1 – 6, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

1. iv) The unmarried or Eunuch type of faith for the Kingdom of Heaven which Christ also Spoke of is said to have a “special gift of faith” which has to do with an “INHERITANCE” in “God’s Heavenly Temple” (implied):

 

“… [14] And BLESSED IS THE EUNUCH, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for UNTO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN THE SPECIAL GIFT OF FAITH, and an INHERITANCE IN THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD more acceptable to his mind. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 3:14, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Compare:

 

“… For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. He who is ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:12, NKJV)

 

1. v) A Life of Virtues is better than having children as it reaches for unfading heavenly rewards (implied)

 

“… [1] BETTER IT IS TO HAVE NO CHILDREN, AND TO HAVE VIRTUE: for the MEMORIAL THEREOF IS IMMORTAL: because it is known with God, and with men. [2] When it is present, men take example at it; and when it is gone, they desire it: it weareth a crown, and triumpheth for ever, having gotten the victory, STRIVING FOR UNDEFILED REWARDS. ….” (Wisdom of Solomon 4:1 – 2, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

 

1. vi) The Wicked may “repent” in the “spirit” (spirit-state) when they see the righteous saved one day with honour

 

“… 1] Then shall the righteous man stand in great boldness before the face of such as have afflicted him, and made no account of his labours.

[2] When they see it, they shall be troubled with terrible fear, and shall be AMAZED AT THE STRANGENESS OF HIS SALVATION, so far BEYOND ALL THAT THEY LOOKED FOR.

[3] And THEY REPENTING and GROANING FOR ANGUISH OF SPIRIT shall say within themselves, This was he, whom we had sometimes in derision, and a proverb of reproach:

[4] We fools accounted his life madness, and his end to be without honour:

[5] How is he numbered among the children of God, and his lot is among the saints!

[6] Therefore have we erred from the way of truth, and the LIGHT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS HATH NOT SHINED UNTO US, and THE SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ROSE NOT UPON US. …”  (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1 – 6, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

vii) Possible Universalism in some way by God’s Mercy UPON ALL EVENTUALLY in some way

 

“… [23] But THOU HAST MERCY UPON ALL; for thou CANST DO ALL THINGS, and WINKEST AT THE SINS OF MEN, because THEY SHOULD AMEND. [24] For THOU LOVEST ALL THE THINGS that are, and ABHORREST NOTHING WHICH THOU HAST MADE: for never wouldest thou have made any thing, if thou hadst hated it. [25] And how could any thing have endured, if it had not been thy will? or been preserved, if not called by thee? [26] But THOU SPAREST ALL: for they are thine, O Lord, thou lover of souls. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 11:23 – 26KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

viii) The Wicked “live once only” in this temporal life

 

“… [11] Forasmuch as he knew not his Maker, and him that inspired into him an ACTIVE SOUL, and BREATHED IN A LIVING SPIRIT. … [17] For BEING MORTAL, he worketh a DEAD THING with WICKED hands: for HE HIMSELF IS BETTER THAN THE THINGS WHICH he worshippeth: whereas HE LIVED ONCE, BUT THEY NEVER. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 15:11 – 17, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Comment:  The Wicked who worship idols are compared to “live once only” referring to the Context of “not living on earth” (i.e. soul with a body Context) where this implies at most a wicked could be saved as a spirit only as this possibility was discussed in Bible Verses such as 1 Peter 4:6 and 1 Corinthians 5:5 & Matthew 10:28 in an earlier post in link below titled ” Universalism Hope for the Wicked seems to point only to being saved in the spirit-state”

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161357251187784/

 

1. ix) Spirit World Salvation in “spirit-state” (implied) in Hell may be Possible as the meaning of “Saviour of All” if God Wills it by His Choice even toward “His enemies”

 

“… [7] For he that turned himself toward it WAS NOT SAVED BY THE THING THAT HE SAW, BUT BY THEE, THAT ART THE SAVIOUR OF ALL. [8] And in this thou MADEST THINE ENEMIES CONFESS, that it is THOU WHO DELIVEREST FROM ALL EVIL: … [12] For it was neither herb, nor mollifying plaister, that restored them to health: but thy word, O Lord, which HEALETH ALL THINGS. [13] For thou hast power of life and death: THOU LEADEST TO THE GATES OF HELL, and BRINGEST UP AGAIN. …”  (Wisdom of Solomon 16:7 – 8, 12 – 13, KJV)

 

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Example related discussion “Possible Hope for non-Christians who were Good to Christians to Believe after Seeing as the Mystery of the one who Thirsts”

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161357257387784/

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Third Day Mystery

 

The unmarried or Eunuch type of faith for the Kingdom of Heaven which Christ also Spoke of is said to have a “special gift of faith” which has to do with an “INHERITANCE” in “God’s Heavenly Temple” (implied):

“… [14] And BLESSED IS THE EUNUCH, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for UNTO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN THE SPECIAL GIFT OF FAITH, and an INHERITANCE IN THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD more acceptable to his mind. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 3:14, KJV)

Source: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Compare:

“… For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. He who is ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:12, NKJV)

This might be a “special inheritance” for those who kept from women/marriage as First Christianity echoed, which may be echoed allegorically in Verses below:

“… And the PRIEST answered David and said, “There is NO COMMON BREAD on hand; but there is HOLY BREAD, if the young men have AT LEAST KEPT THEMSELVES FROM WOMEN.” …” (1 Samuel 21:4, NKJV)

God Instructed this to even Blessed Prophet Moses and the People in Verses below that they should NOT even have sexual relations with their views to be SANCTIFIED which included NOT EVEN TOUCHING THEIR WIVES for THREE DAYS and only under that CONDITION, such ones could at least “see” God, Verses:

“…14So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and SANCTIFIED THE PEOPLE, and they washed their clothes. 15And he said to the people, “BE READY FOR THE THIRD DAY; DO NOT COME NEAR YOUR WIVES.” …” (Exodus 19:14 – 15, NKJV)

Yes, even purity in ‘fasting and prayer’ is affected by LAWFUL MARRIAGE relations as it’s best when the married couple is not physically engaged (so some may dedicate a lifetime of lifestyle of prayer by not marrying at all which must be best, right? like the ‘Church Fathers’ did) which is Biblical according to Verses below:

“… Do not deprive one another EXCEPT WITH CONSENT FOR A TIME, that you may GIVE YOURSELVES TO FASTING and PRAYER; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. …” (1 Corinthians 7:5, NKJV)

 

So we see that the Moses’ instruction is not a special one because to ‘see God that close’ such level of purity is clearly needed and at other times, a ‘lower comprehension of God’ requires it not as Holy Scripture clearly Teaches even in 1 Corinthians 7 in the New Testament too.

Here are these Verses in “full” for clarity:

“… 10Then THE LORD SAID TO MOSES, “Go to the people and CONSECRATE THEM TODAY AND TOMORROW, and let them wash their clothes. 11And LET THEM BE READY FOR THE THIRD DAY. For on THE THIRD DAY THE LORD WILL COME DOWN UPON MOUNT SINAI in the sight of all the people. 12You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Take heed to yourselves that you do not go up to the mountain or touch its base. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.” 14So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and SANCTIFIED THE PEOPLE, and they washed their clothes. 15And he said to the people, “BE READY FOR THE THIRD DAY; DO NOT COME NEAR YOUR WIVES.” 16Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17And MOSES BROUGHT THE PEOPLE OUT of the camp to MEET WITH GOD, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because THE LORD DESCENDED UPON IT IN FIRE. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and [c]the whole mountain quaked greatly. 19And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. 20Then the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. …” (Exodus 19:10 – 20, NKJV)

 

Here is Exodus 19:15 I a few translations for a clearer view:

 

New International Version

Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

 

New Living Translation

He told them, “Get ready for the third day, and until then abstain from having sexual intercourse.”

 

English Standard Version

And he said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.”

 

Berean Study Bible

“Be prepared for the third day,” he said to the people. “Do not draw near to a woman.”

 

King James Bible

And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

 

New King James Version

And he said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not come near your wives.”

 

New American Standard Bible

He also said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.”

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/exodus/19-15.htm

Yes, please notice carefully that this particular preparation of “not having any sexual/marriage relations within holy marriage” itself is in preparation of the “THIRD DAY” which refers literally here as to “… MEET WITH GOD …” (Exodus 19:17).  Thus this may be called a ‘Third Day Mystery’.

So if a temporal meeting with God requires this as a condition in order to meet Him ‘closer’, how much more a lifetime of abstinence from marriage/women completely can thus likewise imply a closer MEETING with GOD as First Christianity’s Contests of Celibacy and Continence clearly Taught and was Practiced by all apostles too (Matthew 19:29 mentions “leave wife” context too for them as I have discussed in detail in previous books) and thus is a Holy Doctrine which might be implied by Christ Beautifully toward those who become EUNUCH for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN’s SAKE (Matthew 19:12).

 

That’s why (though not mandatory in Scripture), it is highly encouraged that ‘pastors/priests or bishops or equivalent’ to abstain from marriage for them to possibly attain to such a ‘rare gift of faith toward a special inheritance’ as highlighted in these Verses (understood when seen together).

 

No wonder Scripture Wished that “ALL MEN” were “UNMARRIED” in Verses below as Scripture wouldn’t wish something unless it benefits you in the “Kingdom of Heaven” Context in some way, Verses (in this Same Context, Same Topic of choice of married vs unmarried in 1 Corinthians 7 itself below):

 

“… 7For I WISH THAT ALL MEN WERE EVEN as I MYSELF. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8But I say to the UNMARRIED AND TO THE WIDOWS: IT IS GOOD FOR THEM IF THEY REMAIN EVEN AS I AM; 9but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. … 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have TROUBLE IN THE FLESH, but I WOULD SPARE YOU. … 32But I want you to be without care. He who is UNMARRIED CARES FOR THE THINGS OF THE LORD—how he may PLEASE THE LORD. 33But HE WHO IS MARRIED CARES about the THINGS OF THE WORLD—how he may PLEASE HIS WIFE. … 38So then he who GIVES HER IN MARRIAGE DOES WELL, but he WHO DOES NOT GIVE HER IN MARRIAGE DOES BETTER. …” (1 Corinthians 7:7 – 9, 28, 32 – 33, 38, NKJV)

 

This Context is certainly true as “not” one married person is included to be “this close to God” or even being the “Firstfruits of Salvation” (representing the holiest of them all) as mentioned in clearly in Verses below as inclusive of the condition of “not” being married at all where the fact that they are closest to God is evidenced by the phrases “…SANG AS IT WERE A NEW SONG before …” with “… NO ONE COULD LEARN THAT SONG except the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND …” and “… WHO WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN, FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are the ones WHO FOLLOW THE LAMB WHEREVER HE GOES. …” (as myself for example, clearly “NOT” being these 144000 cannot do these in Heaven), Verses:

“… 1Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and WITH HIM ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, [b]having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. … . 3They SANG AS IT WERE A NEW SONG before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and NO ONE COULD LEARN THAT SONG except the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND who were redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones WHO WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN, FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are the ones WHO FOLLOW THE LAMB WHEREVER HE GOES. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb …” (Revelation 14:1, 3 – 4, NKJV)

So even if we cannot become the 144000 in any way, we don’t change the literal meaning implied in Holy Scripture and strive to Preach it as it is Written to the best ability that we can.

 

Also, any ‘getting closer to God’ must also likewise follow these “SAME CONDITIONS” specified in these Verses according to the “MEASURE of FAITH” (Romans 12:3) Gifted by God to us likewise as “THERE IS NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD” (Romans 2:11) meaning also that the Rules and Conditions are the Same and no one can do anything against what’s Written in Holy Scripture as Teaching Wrongly against New Testament Rules can “RUIN our HEARERS” by doing things “NOT WRITTEN” as this next Verse Warns and we may be held accountable:

 

“… 5And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is NOT CROWNED unless he COMPETES ACCORDING to THE RULES. … 14REMIND THEM OF THESE THINGS, charging them before the Lord not to [d]strive about words to no profit, to the RUIN OF THE HEARERS. … ” (2 Timothy 2:5, 14, NKJV)

 

The New Testament may have quoted the Apocrypha too, example link:

https://apologeticessay.wordpress.com/2017/10/21/deuterocanonical-books-quoted-in-new-testament/

 

Church Father quoted the apocrypha extensively too, example link:

https://practicalapologetics.blogspot.com/2013/07/early-church-fathers-on-apocrypha.html

 

Note: Even St. Augustine Protestant’s favourite saint believed that this Book of Wisdom or “Wisdom” (in short) believed it as Holy Scripture as did the First Oldest Bible in all of known Christianity, the “Muratorian Canon” also likewise endorses it with St. Melito of Sardis, that Great Jewish Christian bishop of old too.

 

 

 

 

 

Body, Soul and Spirit Interpretation in 1 Peter 4:6 against full Universalism

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161361897212784

 

Question

 

Jonathan Ramachandran A couple points I’d like to make:

 

First, nothing in 1 Peter 4:6 or 1 Corinthians 5:5 indicates that God annihilates souls. If God did such a thing it would be the central focus of scripture and taught clearly and conclusively.

 

Also, that is not even the same Greek word being used in Matthew 10:28, which is more distinct, not merely your life force, or breath, but “psuché” the “soul the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions” or specifically what makes us sentient beings, psuché distinguished from “pneuma” or “zoe” in specificity.

 

So you’re kind of comparing apples and oranges. As Scott points out we need to allow the context of Matthew 10:28 speak for itself. Otherwise you’re forcing something into the passage that simply isn’t there.

 

Reply

 

1 Corinthians 5:23 by usage shows these meanings matching Matthew 10:28’s body and soul being destroyed while 1 Peter 4:6 and 1 Corinthians 5:5 show after this Judgment only spirit remains making the claim true as in the past example of 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 likewise shows how they live on in spirit state only.

 

Old Testament Scripture hardly mentioned any afterlife consciousness or even final judgment but these are more revealed in the New And so God Chose to hide it accordingly.

 

The only thing that is “not” Written at all is the Wicked getting a body and soul after the Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment Which strangely is believed by some Universalists is “not” Written in one Scripture hence by your own words is thus not central nor focus of Scripture.

 

Bible Verses:

 

1. i) Man consists of “Body, Soul and Spirit” distinctly

 

“… Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT [4151 [e] pneuma πνεῦμα] SOUL [5590 [e] psychē ψυχὴ] AND BODY [4983 [e] sōma σῶμαbe] preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. …” (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NKJV)

 

Note: If all three “body, soul, spirit” are preserved in the Righteous than in comparison the wicked’s one may “not” all be preserved post-judgment, right?

 

Source:

https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-23.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/5-23.htm

 

1. ii) The person’s “spirit” may be saved post this final Judgment

 

“… to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his SPIRIT [4151 [e] pneuma πνεῦμα] may be SAVED in the DAY OF THE LORD. …” (1 Peter 4:6, Berean Literal Bible)

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/5-5.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/5-5.htm

 

Note: The “spirit” being “Saved”  on the “Day of the Lord” indicates most likely Judgment Day “spirit state only” Salvation post Final Judgment.

 

iii) The Final Judgment can destroy both “body and soul” where 1 Peter 4:6 helps us understand that both may be destroyed and only spirit saved

 

“… And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy BOTH SOUL [5590 [e] psychēn ψυχὴν] AND BODY [4983 [e] sōma σῶμα] in GEHENNA [Lake of Fire]. …” (Matthew 10:28, Berean Literal Bible)

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-28.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/10-28.htm

 

Note: Christ Specifically even mentions that body can be killed apart from the soul first itself sets the context of body not alive anymore. So the next line sets the context likewise that both body and soul after being destroyed are not alive anymore.

 

1. iv) Judgment Day Context possibility that only the “spirit” gets Saved after bodily resurrection and the Gospel Preached to then first where the “Gospel (Good News)” to them in this context seems to be only living in the “spirit-state” in “spirit abodes” accordingly.

 

“… For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to THE DEAD [3498 [e] nekrois νεκροῖς], so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the SPIRIT [ 4151 [e] pneumati πνεύματι] according to God. …” (1 Peter 4:6, Berean Literal Bible)

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

Comments:

 

1. a) 1 Peter 4:6 seems to point to the “Resurrection of Judgment” (John 5:28 – 29) for the Wicked case as per the context highlight in 1 Peter 4:5

 

“… who will give account to Him who is READY to JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD [3498 [e] nekrous νεκρούς ].  …” (1 Peter 4:5, Berean Literal Bible)

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-5.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4-5.htm

 

1. b) When does 1 Peter 4:5 happen? Is it now in the Spirit World or on “Judgment Day” context?

 

“… I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD [3498 [e] nekrous νεκρούς] AT HIS APPEARING AND HIS KINGDOM: …” (2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV)

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/4-1.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/4-1.htm

 

Note: The Greek here has the word “and” (Kai) with “ten” (by the)  when combined indicating this “Judgement for the living and the dead” happens at “His Appearing and Kingdom” hence “Judgment Day” Context clearly. Hence I use NKJV as the Berean Literal Bible only translates “and” (Kai) here ignoring “by the” which the NKJV (or even KJV) combines and writes its meaning as “at” in English as a shorthand. This is how I switch translations sometimes for highlight on meaning.

 

1. c) Can the phrase “the dead” refer to something conscious or unconscious? Is it a corpse?

 

“… And I SAW THE DEAD [3498 [e] nekrous νεκρούς] , small and great, STANDING BEFORE GOD, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-12.htm

 

The Greek:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-12.htm

 

Note: “the DEAD” are clearly “Standing before God” indicating consciousness and so it doesn’t refer to a corpse at all as described in Judgment Day Verses likewise with the same word used in both 1 Peter 4:5 and 1 Peter 4:6 too.

 

1. d) Regarding the word “Zoe”

 

Compare:

 

“… 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. …” (John 5:28 – 29, NKJV)

 

“… And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE [2222 [e] zōēn ζωὴν] . …” (Matthew 25:46, NKJV)

 

“… For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to THE DEAD [3498 [e] nekrois νεκροῖς], so that they might be judged indeed according to MEN in the FLESH, but they might LIVE [2198 [e] zōsi ζῶσι] in the SPIRIT [ 4151 [e]pneumati πνεύματι] according to God. …” (1 Peter 4:6, Berean Literal Bible)

 

Note: The “Dead” here being Judged in the “Flesh” indicated their ‘Resurrection of Judgment’ Context timeline too as per John 5:28 – 29 (meaning they have body + soul + spirit before Judgment) but after this Final Judgment, this Verse clearly indicates in comparison that “ONLY their SPIRIT remains to LIVE” pointing to both “Body and Soul” where sin dwelt to be destroyed completely  (as Matthew 10:28 indicates) leaving only possibly “spirit-state” Salvation as claimed (in 1 Peter 4:6 clearly).

 

Sources:

 

https://biblehub.com/matthew/25-46.htm

 

https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

The Greeks:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4-6.htm

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-46.htm

 

Regarding “Zoe” or [2222 [e] zōēn ζωὴν] (in Matthew 25:46 for example) it’s “life” referring to Resurrected life and only applied to the righteous and there but only to the Wicked’s spirit after Judgment in 1 Peter 4:6 as this word “2198 [e] zōsi ζῶσι” is used which is clearly related as per the Bible Dictionary in link below states (please look at the numberings carefully to see how these words from the same root work are linked clearly and these appear in each quoted verse accordingly as shown):

 

“… Cognate: 2198 záō – to live, experience God’s gift of life. See 2222 (zōē). …”

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/greek/2198.htm

 

I’m “not” saying that my interpretation must be 100% right but it’s certainly “possible” in light of these Verses.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Can a Wicked have a body+soul “after” being cast into Gehenna or the Lake of Fire?

 

I don’t think so.

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161364058797784

 

Example Question

 

Jonathan Ramachandran You wrote: “The only thing that is “not” Written at all is the Wicked getting a body and soul after the Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment Which strangely is believed by some Universalists is “not” Written in one Scripture . . .”

 

Yes, scripture does teach all get a new body and soul. The prophecy is that ALL people will bow and declare allegiance to Christ:

 

for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” – Romans 14:11

 

Note that the Greek word for “confess” (exomologeó) actually means to declare openly, joyfully, and without any reservation. Those with no body or soul cannot do this.

 

We read: “The LORD upholds all who fall and lifts up all who are bowed down” – Psalm 145:14

 

Since every knee eventually bows before Christ, and the result is that God lifts up all those who do, we can positively conclude God is not going to annihilate them, or the prophecy fails.

 

 

 

 

Reply

 

No matter how you see Gehenna, only the spirit is said to be saved in 1 Peter 4:6 and in none of the Verses you quoted either does it prove that the Wicked has a body + soul “after” Gehenna. In fact Matthew 10:28 with 1 Peter 4:6 proves that God is not “able” only to destroy body+soul of the Wicked in Gehenna but does it and 1 Peter 4:6 or 1 Corinthians 5:5 points clearly that only the spirit remains (i.e. in a spirit-state).

 

You can confess in a spirit state, 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 is the Proof for if a spirit cannot speak nor comprehend, the Gospel cannot be Preached to a “spirit” as it was done in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 by Christ. Angels themselves exist in a “spirit-state” which uses this SAME WORD as per Hebrews 1:14 so they’re a type of spirit. So it’s not written at all that the Wicked get a body and soul after Gehenna. Also the confession can be done before being cast into Gehenna to lose body + soul too and hence that Verse doesn’t prove that the body+soul of the Wicked exists “after” Gehenna.

 

Please notify carefully that angels, though being in a “spirit-state” only, can do the following:

 

1) Physically engage in Battle if God Wills it (Matthew 26:53)

 

2) Take a form of a human if God allows it (Hebrews 13:1 – 2)

 

3) Angels Speak as per the “Archangel’s Voice” compared in 1 Thessalonians 4:16

 

4) The opposite of angels are demons as per Romans 8:38 which proves that demons are also evil “spirits” (again same word in Luke 10:20) which means the Wicked can end up in a limited movement spirit-state in a spirit-abode after 1 Peter 4:6’s saved in “spirit-state” happens just like demons cannot go everywhere in the spirit world as per the “spirit” existence of angels either.

 

5) Angels can talk and even appear on earth if given permission (Luke 2:10)

 

6) Angels have their own “tongues” indicating speech and language too (1 Corinthians 13:1)

 

7) Angels can express emotions such as joy despite being “spirits” in a “spirit-state” only as they rejoice over a sinner who repent (Luke 15:10) debunking the Jewish myths that “spirit” doesn’t have consciousness nor can talk unless with a soul or body as these Verses clearly prove such a thing I’d possible in a “spirit-state existence”. Not all spirit state existence are equal as the demons cannot simply move into heaven/earth as Luke 10:20 proves that they can be made “subject” (restricted freedom) and hence the Wicked’s spirit “after” Gehenna/Lake of Fire may thus be limited likewise on God’s Terms (let God Decide as per 1 Peter 4:6 if this interpretation is true).

 

8) Angels or “spirits” clearly can talk (Luke 1:30 – 31) proving that “confessing that Jesus is Lord” doesn’t prove a body+soul “after” Gehenna either.

 

9) Angels are “spirits” who serve God and the righteous named are confessed before them (Revelation 3:5).

 

10) Angels or “spirits” can appear to sit on a stone even  and sitting cannot be seen unless there is a “knee” (Matthew 28:2) and so none of the acts you mentioned are unique to a body+soul.

 

11) The phrase “seen by angels” in 1 Timothy 3:16 proves that “angels as spirits” can only “see” if God allows them to see and can “see” without having “eyes of flesh” nor with a soul.

 

12) Angels, a type of “spirit-existence” can also appear in a “dream” (Matthew 1:20, Matthew 2:19).

 

Conclusion

 

However the angels or “spirits” cannot simply appear on earth apart from permission and thus the Wicked’s spirit likewise cannot enter heaven nor the new earth as John 3:3 – 5 implies that since they’re NOT born again (i.e. in a new body+soul) it’s clearly implied that they cannot enter the Kingdom of God to experience this as permission is “not” granted to them at all. Please notice also carefully that the theme of Gehenna is Described by Christ in Mark 9:40 clearly to imply saving literal body parts to be able to  “enter into the Kingdom of God” (Mark 9:47) and thus those without these body parts nor soul are implied in contrast to never enter the KINGDOM OF GOD, Verses:

 

“… 42“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43If your HAND causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to ENTER INTO LIFE [j]MAIMED, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]HELL [Gehenna], into the FIRE that shall NEVER BE QUENCHED— 44[l]where ‘Their WORM DOES NOT DIE And the FIRE is NOT QUENCHED.’ 45And if your FOOT causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to ENTER LIFE LAME, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [m] HELL [Gehenna], [n]into the FIRE that SHALL NEVER BE QUENCHED— 46where ‘Their WORM DOES NOT DIE And the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.’ 47And if your EYE causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD with ONE EYE, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into [o]HELL [Gehenna] FIRE— 48where ‘Their WORM DOES NOT DIE And the FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.’ 49“For EVERYONE will be SEASONED WITH FIRE, and[p] every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 9:42 – 50, NKJV)

 

If the wicked are born again with a new body + soul after the Lake of Fire to enter the Kingdom of God, then “no” point in these Verses of Gehenna warning to preserve the “body parts sinless” unless it’s Destroyed in this Fire till it can never be used to “enter into life” (Mark 9:43 , Mark 9:45) which refers to entering the KINGDOM OF GOD (Mark 9:47, New Earth and New Heavens, Revelation 21:1) literally at that time with a “body + soul + spirit” (implied in contrast, e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23) as the case of the “righteous”.

 

In other words, if these body parts can be recreated or maintained in the Wicked “after” this Gehenna or Lake of Fire, then Christ don’t need to Warn them to preserve it if it’s just purification.

 

It’s not and Written in the context also that only those who preserve their body parts sinless can enter into life or the Kingdom of God (New Heavens and Earth, Revelation 21:1, after Judgment Day) beginning with the Millennial Reign on the old earth first with the “First Resurrection” (Revelation 20:4 – 6, before Judgment Day) where the “First Resurrection” implies that if the righteous didn’t have hands/feet/eyes in their previous temporal life earlier, now in the “First Resurrection”, they get it back completely restored.

 

 

 

 

1. Definition of Body, Soul Spirit is that spirit is the actual existence while soul is its first covering while body is its outermost covering:

 

“… The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the SPIRIT DIES NOT; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the BODY IS THE HOUSE OF THE SOUL; and the SOUL THE HOUSE OF THE SPIRIT. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved. [1 Thessalonians 5:23] …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, ‘FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION’ CHAPTER X)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-resurrection.html

 

Note: St. Justin Martyr is commonly classified as an “annihilationist” but in his own quote here, he believes that the “spirit dies not” which may imply that he doesn’t believe in the annihilation of “spirit” though he believed in the annihilation of “body and soul” only as per Matthew 10:28 literally at Gehenna/Lake of Fire. So St. Justin’s mysterious quote regarding the “Wicked” being eventually made “subject to God” in the Context of “Obeying His Commands” (which is possible in analogy of the ‘formerly disobedient spirits in prison of the past’ to whom Christ Preached upon His Death on the Cross, as 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 records) may thus imply the “spirit is saved” cased only likewise (as 1 Peter 4:6 seems to echo in the Future Final Judgment likewise). St. Justin’s quote (CHAPTER XLI & CHAPTER XLII, ‘Dialogue with Trypho’) may be found in page 45 in this book.

 

How reliable is St. Justin Martyr? Example quote:

 

” … And Justin of Neapolis, a man who was not far separated from the apostles either in age or excellence, says that that which is mortal is inherited, but that which is immortal inherits; and that the flesh indeed dies, but the kingdom of heaven lives. …” — From METHODIUS On the Resurrection, in Photius. (Fragment V, St. Justin Martyr’s Lost Writings)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-fragments.html

 

Note: Justin of Neapolis = Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

1. Why spirit?

 

A “spirit state” can only be in spirit abodes for the wicked even if they have repented there as per the “formerly disobedient” case of the past “spirits in prison” to whom Christ Preached (in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20) where this cannot refer to the righteous because they’re in blessed comfort abodes such as “Abraham’s Bosom” (Luke 16:19 – 31 in comparison) and  in contrast the word “formerly disobedient” means they were “disobedient” till Christ Preached to them or they converted there and were waiting for Christ’s Gospel Proclamation to then there which is echoed similarly to “the dead” on Judgment Day likewise in analogy of the Future Judgment in 1 Peter 4:6 as discussed in previous post in link below (also the word “prison” indicates punishment regions of Hades):

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161361897212784/

 

2. Why body and soul?

 

Existence in a body with soul state allows for experiencing the “earth” or “a new Earth” as a “living soul”

 

“… And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. …” (Genesis 2:7, KJV)

 

The current existence with body + soul + spirit is tainted with sin and thus cannot enter Heaven, but with the Final Bodily Resurrection (thanks to God in Christ) we will enter “heaven” with it and even live on the future earth with it even being able to “walk within walls” despite having “flesh and bones”, Verses:

 

1. Enter Heaven with it

 

“… who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand GAZING UP INTO HEAVEN? This SAME JESUS, who was TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, will so come in like manner as you saw Him GO INTO HEAVEN.” …” (Acts 1:11, NKJV)

 

“… and said, “Look! I SEE THE HEAVENS OPENED and the Son of Man STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND of GOD!” …” (Acts 7:56, NKJV)

 

1. Live on the current Earth (during the Millennial Reign, before Judgment Day following the First Resurrection, Revelation 20:4 – 6) or New Earth with it (after Judgment Day, Revelation 20:11 – 15 followed by Revelation 21:1) and can literally eat too

 

“… 36Now as they said these things, JESUS HIMSELF stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “PEACE TO YOU.” 37But they were terrified and frightened, and SUPPOSED THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE. 40[j]When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you ANY FOOD HERE?” 42So they gave Him a piece of a BROILED FISH [k]and SOME HONEYCOMB. 43And HE TOOK IT AND ATE IN THEIR PRESENCE. …” (Luke 24:36 – 43, NKJV)

iii. Christ Walked through Walls with “flesh + bones” (Luke 24:39) despite the “doors being shut” and “Stood” with the “New Resurrected Body” (John 20:24 – 29)

 

“… 24Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have SEEN THE LORD.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.” 26And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. JESUS CAME, THE DOORS BEING SHUT, and STOOD IN THE MIDST, and said, “Peace to you!” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28And Thomas answered and said to Him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” 29JESUS said to him, [f]“Thomas, BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEEN ME, YOU HAVE BELIEVED. BLESSED are those who have NOT SEEN and YET HAVE BELIEVED.” …” (John 20:24 – 29, NKJV)

 

I am not saying that this is 100% and correct but presenting this possibility strongly as per the Bible Verses quoted.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

Possibility for 1 Corinthians 15:22 all made alive for Universalism argument

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161366452722784

 

Question

 

Justin Martyr seems to think punishment is for a long duration, more than a thousand years. But that seems to be based on the assumption that punishment that begins in the age of ages endures for the entire age of ages. I see nothing in scripture affirming that view, nor does it make any sense. As far as wicked spirits partaking in the resurrection, Paul affirms that all who died in Adam will be raised from the dead (Rom. 5:18, 1 Cor. 15:22). Paul spells this out so plainly I’m not sure why you adhere to this view of a limited resurrection.

 

Jonathan Ramachandran Did you read 1 Cor. 15? It’s a short read regarding the resurrection of the dead. No mention rising spirits, saying someone is a spirit is affirming they are dead, not resurrected.

 

Reply

 

John 5:28 – 29 clearly speaks of the “Resurrection of Judgment” for the Wicked where  their Resurrected body is cannot exist forever because it’s contrasted itself in that Verse as opposed to the Resurrection to Life for the righteous. This resurrected body for the wicked does “not” last forever because Matthew 10:28 clearly shows that in Gehenna/Lake of Fire both “body and soul” are destroyed to non-existence as 1 Peter 4:6 implies toward “the dead” where thereafter these only may exist in the “spirit state” to “live to God”.

 

1 Peter 4:5 Sets this context as Judgment Day. The verses like Death is destroyed or “all made alive in Christ” (1 Corinthians 15) may apply to the wicked only in the “spirit” state. Please also notice that 1 Peter 4:5 and 1 Peter 4:6 with Revelation 20:12 calls these ‘Resurrected for Judgment’ wicked ones with the same term as “the dead” even though they’re raised bodily for Judgment meaning that their flesh (body + soul) is “not” unto life as will be destroyed in Gehenna/Lake of Fire and 1 Peter 4:6 or 1 Corinthians 5:5 Speaks that only “their spirit” lived on thereafter by God’s Mercy if He Wills it.

 

Made alive doesn’t necessarily mean Resurrected body. I have already explained to understand that, we have to look at 1 Peter 4:6 where only the “spirit” is made alive after that “living to God”.

 

Regarding St. Justin Martyr’s quote on punishment more than 1000 years, it can be true as the that’s what “age-during” punishment can mean in Matthew 25:46 literally. This is fair because one sin can make another to suffer for a lifetime, for example imagine a wicked who purposely changed a good part of the car to a faulty one without a person knowing whilst doing repairs and that customer ended up in an accident dying leaving behind his children as orphans. So the wicked must suffer for the damage he caused likewise for his actions caused that death for each orphans like that.

 

Similarly, influencing people say to commit adultery or drunkenness or vices can likewise affect suffering or sorrow to those who may marry them or cause pain psychologically or emotionally or financially etc. which when individually counted can equal many lifetimes and so the wicked suffers in the flesh during his resurrection of Judgment likewise feeling back all the anguish he caused on others like that in his lifetime which can easily add up to more than a thousand years. This may eventually cause only the “carcass” of the Wicked to remain (with no spirit) as per Isaiah 66:24 so no salvation in the flesh for them as St. Justin Martyr has pointed out in his other quotes.

 

The other possibility held strongly by Eternal Hell believers or Annihilation believers is that this “all made alive” in Christ part either only applies to “Christians as the all” or “the wicked are part of the all made alive referring to their Resurrection of Judgment only where thereafter they are destroyed”.

 

No one can sure which “possibility” here might be true but I think the “spirit made alive” for the wicked after the Final Judgment on the Day of Lord Jesus (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5) seem to be the only verses which Describe this Timeline and these have “no” more “body and soul Destroyed in Gehenna/Lake of Fire” (Matthew 10:28) implying that their “punishment is eternal” (Matthew 25:46) referring to the consequence that “they can never enter nor inherit the Kingdom of God of the New Heavens and New Earth” (Revelation 21:24 – 27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 – 11) where their “carcass/dead body with no spirit” may continue burning forever (if the word translated is forever instead of age-during) as per Isaiah 66:24 which describes this final scene likewise which can refer to the “smoke” in “smoke of their torment” forever (Revelation 14:11) where “smoke” usually signifies an end of burning which can in this case refer to “no more body and soul” (Matthew 10:28) attached to the “spirit anymore” making the “spirit live” if “God Wills” as 1 Peter 4:6/1 Corinthians 5:5 may point on the Future Day of Lord Jesus Timeline.

I repeat, I am “not” saying that I’m 100% correct but presenting this “possibility” only strongly as I see it blending with all Verses quoted.

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

An Edifying Comment:

 

Question

 

In case you still have any doubt here is the context in which all are made alive in Christ . . . Paul even teaches if the dead are not raised then Christ hasn’t be raised either. This is a critical understanding if you call yourself a Christian. This understanding is affirmed in the Nicene Creed as well:

 

“14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ”

– 1 Cor. 15:14-22

 

Reply

 

Yes, the wicked are Raised for “Resurrection of Judgment” Bodily (John 5:28 – 29). That’s all is the “all made alive here context”. It doesn’t imply the body+soul lasts after Gehenna which happens next as Matthew 10:28 points both to be destroyed and finally in that timeline 1 Peter 4:6 mentions only spirit lives thereafter in ‘full’ as even the Book of 1Enoch shows the early Christian/Jewish understanding likewise for the “spirit state” salvation possibility only for those cast in the Lake of Fire as discussed in that book with details.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Are there 66 books or more in the Bible?

 

Did Lord Jesus Christ directly Quote the Apocrypha?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161365182417784

 

1) Firstly Mr. Ron R. D. Wrote:

 

“… In MAT. 23:37, Jesus quoted from & paraphrased 2 ESDRAS (1:30), one of the Deutero-canonical/”Apocryphal” books. See for yourself:

 

MAT. 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem; thou that killest the prophets & stonest them which are sent unto thee. How often would I have GATHERED thy children TOGETHER, even AS A HEN GATHERETH HER CHICKENS UNDER HER WINGS. But ye were not willing!

2 ESDRAS 1:30

I GATHERED you TOGETHER, AS A HEN GATHERETH HER CHICKENS UNDER HER WINGS. But now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from My face. …” – Mr. Ron R. D.

 

2) An  interesting thing about the Verse above by Christ is that just three Verses earlier Christ Said this in this same conversation:

 

“… 34Therefore, indeed, I SEND YOU PROPHETS, WISE MEN, AND SCRIBES: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and PERSECUTE FROM CITY TO CITY, …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:34, NKJV)

 

Comment: So if Christ is quoting “2 Esdras” in Verses above, then anyone Christ Quoted from Apocrypha may qualify to be a “Prophet or Wise Men or Scribe” whom the Jews rejected, that’s why the general canon of the later Jews probably didn’t consider these books as Scripture.

In other words, could Christ be calling the Jews who rejected these ones as wrong while Christ seems to endorse “2 Esdras” in this same conversation pointing that these are some of the Wise Men/Prophets or Scribes whom He has sent?

 

The interesting thing is that Verse 33 seems to condemn those who reject a prophet of God (possibly including Prophet Ezra’s 2 Esdras quoted here to “Hell” if they’re not careful as per these Pharisees).

 

Please consider these Verses In full ‘Context’ below:

 

“… 33Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you ESCAPE the CONDEMNATION OF HELL? 34Therefore, indeed, I SEND YOU PROPHETS, WISE MEN, AND SCRIBES: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and PERSECUTE FROM CITY TO CITY, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, AS A HEN GATHERS HER CHICKS UNDER HER WINGS, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING! …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:33 – 37, NKJV)

 

Comment: Here is an interesting Verse in 2 Esdras which was Written by Blessed Prophet Ezra himself regarding why only “22/24 Old Testament Books were allowed to be public” while even though there were more “Inspired” books written by him at this same time to re-create the lost books, these were “not for all”, to quote:

 

“… 44 So during the forty days NINETY-FOUR[A] BOOKS WERE WRITTEN. 45 And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, “MAKE PUBLIC the TWENTY-FOUR[B] BOOKS that you wrote first and LET THE WORTHY AND the UNWORTHY READ THEM; 46 but KEEP THE SEVENTY that WERE WRITTEN LAST, in order to GIVE THEM TO THE WISE AMONG YOUR PEOPLE. …” (2 Esdras 14:44 – 46)

 

Source:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Esdras%2014%3A44-46&version=RSV

 

Note: This is the “2 Esdras Book” Christ is Quoting clearly in Matthew 23:37 as scholars point.

 

3) The article in link below (from where I got the image too) is written by a “Protestant Anglican” which also proves that Christ most likely quoted from the Apocrypha clearly:

http://timotheosprologizes.blogspot.com/2015/02/did-jesus-define-old-testament-canon-in.html?m=1

 

Logic: If Christ Quoted from the Apocrypha then most likely these are Scripture and so let’s look at some interesting Apocrypha quotes in some of these books for Edification.

 

4) Here are some of the Apocrypha Books which Christ might have Quoted and some fascinating Verses in each (all Quotes are from link above unless specified otherwise):

 

1. i) Wisdom of Solomon

 

Christ may have Quoted “Wisdom” (Book of Wisdom or also known as Wisdom of Solomon):

 

“… Mt 12:42 – Jesus refers to the Wisdom of Solomon which was the title of a book in the Greek Bible. … Mt 16:18 – Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13. … Jn 5:18 – Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16. …”

 

Here is an interesting Verse in this same Book of “Wisdom” regarding the unmarried or Eunuch type of faith for the Kingdom of Heaven which Christ also Spoke of is said to have a “special gift of faith” which has to do with an “INHERITANCE” in “God’s Heavenly Temple” (implied):

 

“… [14] And BLESSED IS THE EUNUCH, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for UNTO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN THE SPECIAL GIFT OF FAITH, and an INHERITANCE IN THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD more acceptable to his mind. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 3:14, KJV)

Source:  http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Source Post with more details:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161362389557784/

 

1. ii) Book of Sirach

 

“… Mt 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure. … Mt 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation. … Mk 4:5,16-17 – Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15. … Lk 21:24 – Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18. … Jn 6:35-59 – Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21. …”

 

Examples of other Interesting Verses in Sirach in light of the “Charity Doctrine”:

 

“… As water quenches a flaming fire, so ALMSGIVING ATONES FOR SINS …” (Sirach 3:30)

 

Source: https://bible.usccb.org/bible/sirach/3

 

“… * Store up ALMSGIVING in your treasury, and IT WILL SAVE YOU FROM EVERY EVIL. …” (Sirach 29:12)

 

Source: https://bible.usccb.org/bible/sirach/29?8=#28029008

 

“… One’s ALMSGIVING is like a SIGNET RING with the Lord,[a] and HE WILL KEEP a PERSON’S KINDNESS LIKE THE APPLE OF HIS EYE.[b] …” (Sirach 17:22)

 

Source:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach%2017&version=NRSV

 

 

Comment: The same way they preach that ‘holiness’ does not Contradict the Work of Christ but we are to do it, Almsgiving Doctrine may be understood likewise. In light of Christ’s Quotes we understand that the “Charity Doctrine” removes the “Judgment of Sins”  but it cannot give new life nor give Resurrection. Only the Blood of Christ Can Remove Sin itself and bring us to the Resurrection Life beginning within us on earth itself. So only Christ’s Atonement and Work Gives us Life. The Almsgiving stops the ‘Judgment of Sins’, nothing more as that’s the Context meant in Tobit or elsewhere in Verses quoted here (even in Christ’s Parable of the Rich Man and Beggar Lazarus too which Speaks of this absence of Charity Doctrine leads straight to Hell in Luke 16:19 – 31) by which even Lazarus can be ‘spared of that Judgment’ too.

 

iii) 1 and 2 Maccabees

 

“… Mt 24:15 – the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Maccabees 1:54 and 2 Maccabees 8:17. … Mt 24:16 – let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Maccabees 2:28. … Jn 10:22 – the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Maccabees 4:59.

Jn 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as he analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to his own consecration to the Father in 1 Maccabees 4:36. …”

 

Comment: Christ Celebrated Hanukkah the Feast which was due to Maccabees. Please remember that this “same Maccabees” is the one who taught “Purgatory” concept in that “one could do Almsgiving and Prayers on behalf of the dead so that some of them may be loosed from their sins” in Verses below from the same historical book which records this ‘Hanukkah festival and deliverance event which Christ Celebrated according to John 10:22’:

 

“… 43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a HOLY AND WHOLESOME THOUGHT TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD, THAT THEY MAY BE LOOSED FROM SINS. …” (2 Maccabees 12:43 – 46, DRA)

Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Maccabees%2012%3A43-46&version=DRA

Source Post: https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161114614347784/

 

1. iv) Book of Tobit / Tobias

 

“… Mt 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others. … Mt 11:25 – Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 – Lord of heaven and earth. … Mt 22:25; Mk 12:20; Lk 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers. … Lk 2:29 – Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9. …”

 

Interesting Verses in Tobit Example on the “Charity Doctrine”:

 

“… 6 Then he said to them SECRETLY: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. 7 For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. 8 PRAYER IS GOOD WITH FASTING AND ALMS MORE THAN to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For ALMS DELIVERETH from DEATH, and the same is that which PURGETH AWAY SINS, and maketh to FIND MERCY AND LIFE EVERLASTING. … 15 For I am the angel RAPHAEL, one of the seven who stand before the Lord. …” (Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 12:6 – 9, 15)

 

Source: https://biblescripture.net/Tobias.html

 

Or this

 

“… 7 Give generously to anyone who faithfully obeys God.[a] If you are stingy in giving to the poor, God will be stingy in giving to you. 8 Give according to what you have. The more you have, the more you should give. Even if you have only a little, be sure to give something. 9 This is as good as money saved. You will have your reward in a time of trouble. 10-11 TAKING CARE OF THE POOR is the KIND OF OFFERING THAT PLEASES GOD IN HEAVEN. DO THIS, and YOU WILL BE KEPT SAFE FROM THE DARK WORLD OF THE DEAD.” …” (Good News Translation, Tobit 4:7 – 11)

 

Source:  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+4&version=GNT

Source Post (more details on Tobit):

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161277036987784/

 

1. v) A more exhaustive list can be found in link below:

 

https://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanonical-books-new-testament/

 

Conclusion

 

Please don’t easily condemn any of these Books as these are possible Scripture and thus as the Warning in Matthew 23:33 goes, we might find ourselves in “Hell” instead if we are “not” careful and simply reject these possible Wise Men/Prophets and Scribes God has sent. The “Safe Route Scripturally” would be to be neutral if we are not sure. Since Christ may have Quoted each of these particular Apocrypha Books as demonstrated, let’s be neutral in things which we are “not” sure either way lest we commit any BLASPHEMY of the HOLY SPIRIT since Scripture is Utterances of the Holy Spirit just to be safe.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

The Possibility for a Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved on Judgment Day

 

Source Post:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10161371777857784&id=651792783

 

Question

 

Scripture with Scripture. You didn’t finish the passage. “When He comes Back for *All* that belong to Him, (1 Cor. 15: 22-24) And, compare with what Jesus said. Two different Resurrections along with Daniel. (John 5: 28-29) (Daniel 12: 1-3) John tells us even further the First Resurrection is just before the Millennium starts, and the second death Resurrection is after the 1,000 years. (Rev. 20)

 

Reply

 

The view you propose is common for many Christians where they see the First Resurrection as only Christians while the Second Resurrection is all who are condemned to the Lake of Fire. However, let’s take a closer look at another possibility please.

 

All Christians are in the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6). So the ones mentioned in John 5:28 – 29 or Daniel 12:2 cannot be Christians because they rise simultaneously with the wicked, can you see it? Please see Revelation 20:5 too that the First Resurrection is for Christians only when they rise.

 

Also Revelation 21:6 mentions the “one who thirsts” who is only saved on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 – 15) and so if all Christians resurrected 1000 years earlier who is this “one who thirsts” who is just saved on Judgment Day as mentioned in Revelation 21:6? Please also notice carefully that Revelation 22:17 also mentions this “one who thirsts” who is “given the water of life freely” which is different from the “Bride” (or Christians/Church) who also invites it to take the Water of Life freely in Revelation 22:17.

 

Revelation 21:24 – 27 mentions the “nations who are saved” who are just saved on Judgment Day as the Book of Life is Revealed (Revelation 21:27) who cannot be Christians who are Saved 1000 years earlier (Revelation 20:4 – 6), Right?  Also please notice that these “nations who are saved” are “Visiting” the “City” upon being saved (Revelation 21:24 – 27) where the “City” refers to the New Jerusalem City at that time where “All Christians” are gathered or signified to be in the first as “the Bride” (mentioned first in Revelation 21:9 – 10) distinctly, right?

 

Since those Saved only on Judgment Day referring to the “Surprised Sheep” are also called “sheep” during the Second Resurrection timeline (John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2), such ones could be the “sheep of the other fold”, right (John 10:16)? If Matthew 25:31 – 46 which describes Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 – 15) reveals a second badge of righteous as Christians, then it contradicts that all Christians participate in the First Resurrection in one gathering of the Elect during the Second Coming of Christ which was 1000 years earlier in one wedding of the Lamb only, right? (Revelation 19:6 – 10, Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, Matthew 24:29 – 31, Mark 13:24 – 27).

 

Conclusion

 

St. Justin Martyr makes it clear that “all Christians” are Saved in the “First Resurrection” and have their share in the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ and hints that the “Second Resurrection” refers to a “General Resurrection” of “all (other) men” without explicitly stating that all are condemned either in his quote below:

 

“… And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10]; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place [Revelation 20:11 – 15]. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36] …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, CHAPTER LXXXI)

 

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

 

 

In short, if “all Christians” are saved in the “First Resurrection”, then some who are saved only during the Second Resurrection (Revelation 20:5) on Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 – 15) may be “non-Christians who rise simultaneously with the wicked (Daniel 12:2) but are shown Mercy by God via believing after seeing (Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:17) on this ‘Last Day’ (John 6:40) and their acts of Mercy or Charity Doctrine toward Christians” (Matthew 25:31 – 46) as they have “done good deeds” (John 5:28 – 29) who come to Visit the Christians (Revelation 21:9 – 10) by entering that city from inheriting the New Earth (Revelation 21:24 – 27) right?

 

I am “not” saying that my interpretation must be correct as I could be wrong here on many ways but it’s certainly “possible” if we take these Verses literally.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

Which Church belongs to Christ?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161373382072784

 

Question 1

 

Jonathan Ramachandran

That’s  good.

 

But

Don’t you belong to the church….that

Christ  had built  ?

 

as Christ

had mentioned

in

Matthew 16;18

 

Reply 1

 

Yes I do, and St. Clement of Rome himself Prophesied in his own words below that that Church is “not” necessarily going to be correct in Doctrine and also includes those who “leave it” as per his full explanation below:

 

“… Who then among you is NOBLE-MINDED? who compassionate? who FULL OF LOVE? Let him declare, “IF ON MY ACCOUNT SEDITION and DISAGREEMENT AND SCHISMS HAVE ARISEN, I WILL DEPART, I WILL GO AWAY whithersoever you desire, and I WILL DO WHATEVER THE MAJORITY COMMANDS; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it.” HE THAT ACTS THUS SHALL PROCURE TO HIMSELF GREAT GLORY IN THE LORD; and EVERY PLACE WILL WELCOME HIM. For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.” These things they WHO LIVE A GODLY LIFE, that is NEVER TO BE REPENTED OF, BOTH HAVE DONE AND ALWAYS WILL DO. … ” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement Chapter 54)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

 

 

This is the main reason why ‘we don’t believe in forming our own church even if we are right’ but as Blessed St. Clement of Rome commands in his apostolic authority, “… I will do whatever the majority commands …” even if it includes being kicked out of the church, i.e. “… If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever you desire …” as long as the Majority of Christians is happy [i.e. “… only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it …”] & this is not in reference of a heretic being put off from a Church but is referring to a True Christian as “… These things they who live a godly life, that is never to be repented of, both have done and always will do …” because these belong to “… Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love? …” where their reward of leaving Church is not eternal hell but amazingly, “… He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him …” .

 

Since St. Clement of Rome’s name is surely in the “Book of Life” (especially since Philippians 4:3 points to most likely him whilst he was still living), I would prefer to Believe, Preach and do the best I can do Practice his quotes which makes the Bible Verses quoted to be more accurately understood.  May God have Mercy on whomever He Wills (Romans 9:15).

 

Question 2

 

What is the name of your church?

 

Reply 2

 

The Catholic Church which St. Clement of Rome belonged to or even St. Justin Martyr whom you Roman Catholics for example don’t believe in Chiliasm anymore or other new Doctrines “not” Found in one Apostolic Father of the Church. I only believe and contemplate   any Doctrine which can be found in the Writings of the “Apostolic Fathers”. Where it is difficult to understand, I take it as a “possibility”. It cannot be that all Apostolic Fathers’ Writings skipped any essential Doctrine when taken collectively.

 

I have detailed it out on some aspects in post in link below for Edification to understand the “True Catholic (Meaning “Universal”) Church” which St. Irenaeous of Lyons was referring to:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161308464357784/

 

More doctrines which are actually Written among the “Apostolic Fathers” writings may be found in the free pdf book in link below too:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

Note: The very fact that some of the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Doctrine don’t seem to match perfectly or match here and there only with respect to these “Apostolic Fathers’ Writings” itself is good indicator that they preserved them without changing it for if someone changes or adds to a writing, it would reflect “their beliefs”.

 

Who are classified as the Apostolic Fathers? (This is discussed in detail in a chapter in the book in link above)

 

Briefly, Church Fathers who were direct disciples of the Apostles themselves or their disciples are called the Apostolic Fathers and it’s highly unlikely that they made a mistake in Doctrine.

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

First Church Mystery – The Best Church is not that which meets each other once a week or so but that which lives together

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161373940562784

 

1) Church is when we gather together to do Good Works and Discuss Scripture

 

The reason for Church Gathering is to do “Good Works” and “Exhorting each other”

 

“… 24And let us consider one another in order to STIR UP LOVE AND GOOD WORKS, 25NOT FORSAKING the ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. …” (Hebrews 10:24 – 25, NKJV)

 

2) Church is Living together Daily

 

The “assembling together” which is Written in Verses above looked like below which is basically “living together daily” in some way

 

“… 44Now all who BELIEVED were together, and had ALL THINGS in COMMON, 45and SOLD their POSSESSIONS and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. 46So continuing DAILY with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and SIMPLICITY of HEART, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. …” (Acts 2:44 – 47, NKJV)

 

 

 

“… 32Now the multitude of those who BELIEVED were of ONE HEART and ONE SOUL; neither did anyone say that ANY of the THINGS he POSSESSED was HIS OWN, but they had ALL THINGS in COMMON. … 34Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for ALL who were POSSESSORS of LANDS or HOUSES SOLD them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they DISTRIBUTED to each as ANYONE had NEED. 36And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet. …” (Acts 4:32, 34 – 37, NKJV)

 

Comment: If we cannot live together with many Christians due to finance or other constraints, please just do it with one or at times when you can and by relative measure (e.g. the “poor widow with 2 Coins”, God Judges fairly will see you doing what you can, Luke 21:1 – 4).

 

3) Church Money belongs to anyone in need among them and not the pastors only

 

The “Church Money” is to be “shared or given to the poor” and “all men” (not Christians only or own Church only according to Relative Measure) as that’s “ministry” and when taken beyond needs by any pastor or anyone (let God Judge, and that’s why Prosperity Gospel is dangerous), it may come under serious Judgment as the First Christianity Apostolic Fathers Writing of the Didache has warned of some type of Hell till the last penny for those who do so – yes, that means on earth you will see them “untouched & doing well”, so do you really want to risk “Hell”?

 

Bible Verses for this:

 

“… 9As it is written:

 

“He has dispersed abroad,

 

He has GIVEN TO THE POOR;

 

His RIGHTEOUSNESS endures FOREVER.”

 

10Now [g]may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, [h]supply and multiply the seed you have sown and INCREASE THE FRUITS OF YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, 11while you are enriched in everything for ALL LIBERALITY, which causes THANKSGIVING THROUGH US TO GOD. 12For the ADMINISTRATION OF THIS SERVICE not only SUPPLIES THE NEEDS OF THE SAINTS, but also is ABOUNDING THROUGH MANY THANKSGIVINGS TO GOD, 13while, through the PROOF OF THIS MINISTRY, THEY GLORIFY GOD for the OBEDIENCE OF YOUR CONFESSION to the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and for YOUR LIBERAL SHARING WITH THEM and ALL MEN, …” (2 Corinthians 9:9 – 13, NKJV)

 

Here’s that “Didache” Warning of taking money “beyond needs” (applies not just to Church money but any money too):

 

“… Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. WOE to HIM WHO RECEIVES; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who RECEIVES NOT having NEED shall PAY the PENALTY, why he received and for what. And coming into CONFINEMENT, he shall be EXAMINED concerning the THINGS which he HAS DONE, and he shall NOT ESCAPE from THERE until he PAYS back the LAST PENNY. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let YOUR ALMS sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give…” – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (1st Century, Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

4) Church Money is to be given to the Charity Doctrine purposes

 

Church Money used daily for the Charity Doctrine expenses toward those who need it

 

“… 9Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10WELL REPORTED FOR GOOD WORKS: if she has BROUGHT UP CHILDREN, if SHE HAS LODGED STRANGERS, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if SHE HAS RELIEVED THE AFFLICTED, if she has DILIGENTLY FOLLOWED EVERY GOOD WORK. …” (1 Timothy 5:9 – 10, NKJV)

 

5) Christ is Present in any Church which even has “Two people” practising all these together

 

“… For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 18:20, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

 

If money is collected in the Name of God, it must be used as per God’s Will according to Scripture and so we risk ourselves if we do partially and disobey partially. May God have Mercy on whomever He Wills.

 

If one didn’t go to Hell because of these, it affects one’s heavenly rewards (depends on the level of transgression or Lawlessness, let God Decide, Matthew 5:19 – 20).

 

“… Obedience is better than Sacrifice …’ (1 Samuel 15:22)

 

Please remember that where we may see “big numbers” (either in giving or congregation numbers), God may see something of a ‘small obedience’ by ‘relative measure’ Vs something which we look down generally in ‘small number or small giving in amount’ as ‘way greater’ as He Himself Revealed in Verses below (and so, please leave the Judgment to God where we can discuss the Scriptures, or “Bible Verses” which Reveal each claim as shown lest we are deceived by mere men’s opinions), Verses:

 

“… 1And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites.[a] 3So He said, “TRULY I say to you that this POOR widow has put in MORE THAN ALL; 4for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings [b]for God, but she OUT OF HER POVERTY PUT IN ALL THE LIVELIHOOD THAT SHE HAD.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 21:1 – 4, NKJV)

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Is converting Souls more important or Teaching Accurate Doctrine?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161407047987784

 

Question

 

NOTE: Remember our JOB is to win souls to Christ, not religious arguments.

 

Reply

 

Not really accurate as we are called to do both, please consider this “Bible Verse”:

 

“… Those who are WISE shall shine Like the BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT, And THOSE WHO TURN MANY to RIGHTEOUSNESS Like the STARS forever and ever. …” (Daniel 12:3, NKJV)

 

Comments:

 

1. Convert Many (“Win souls“)

 

‘… Shine like the STARS …’ Levels

 

2. Those who are WISE (Theologically more accurate)

 

‘… Shine like the FIRMAMENTS (HEAVENS*) …’

 

Note: The Word “Firmament” refers to the “HEAVENS or FOUNDATION OF HEAVENS” which is WAY BRIGHTER than the STARS‘ Glory where all these are in the Context of “Celestial (Heavenly) Glory referring to the Final Resurrection Body of Christians‘ as Revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42 clearly as ‘it is Written‘.

 

First Christianity Taught likewise as discussed in Source post in link below (with more details too):

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161253065962784/

 

Example: Christ Himself had only “12 Apostles” at the highest levels or the “Firstfruit” of Salvation refers to purely “unmarried Jewish Virgin Men only” (Revelation 7:1 – 10, Revelation 14:1 – 5) as the “Firstfruits” indicates the holiest lot which has nothing to do with number of converts as ‘how many unmarried Jewish Virgin Men from history even are known to have big number of converts or pastor mega churches’?

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

How about the Apostles’ Ranking in Heaven?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161407106762784

 

Example Question

 

Were the Apostles Virgins?

 

Reply

 

The Apostles (lived like virgins) after they “left wife” as Apostle Peter himself said he “LEFT ALL” in Matthew 19:27 (and hence could “not” be in marriage relations anymore) as Christ Affirmed the LEFT WIFE part clearly in Matthew 19:29 (amongst even leaving LANDS, HOUSES, PARENTS, CHILDREN for GOSPEL WORK in some way) and are even higher than these 144000 as they get the “Twelve Thrones” (Matthew 19:28) and their names Written in the very Foundation of Heaven itself by GOD HIMSELF (Revelation 21:14). These Verses:

 

“…27Then PETER ANSWERED  and said to Him, “See, we have LEFT ALL and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” 28So JESUS SAID to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on TWELVE THRONES, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has LEFT HOUSES or BROTHERS or SISTERS or FATHER or MOTHER [h]or WIFE or CHILDREN or [i]lANDS, for My name’s sake, shall receive a HUNDREFOLD, and inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the LAST FIRST. …” (Matthew 19:27 – 30, NKJV)

 

Please notice carefully the word “HUNDREDFOLD” (in Matthew 19:29) above (in comparison to thirty of sixty fold which must be lesser leaving of these things as per Matthew 13:8) and in Matthew 19:30 above CHRIST Reveals the MYSTERY that this is how the FIRST (on earth) will be LAST (in ranking in heaven) while the LAST (on earth) may become FIRST (in ranking in Heaven) as the Context is Gradation (the word “Hundredfold“) with respect to the Context of “RENUNCIATION for the Gospel in some way only” (as CHRIST Didn’t Speak of any other acts in these Verses clearly) ‘as it is Written’.

 

“…Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the NAMES of the TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. …” (Revelation 21:14, NKJV)

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prosperity Gospel and the Divorce for Remarriage type of Leniency in Doctrine Dangers

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161447433937784

 

In Early Christianity, the ‘Prosperity Gospel’ was non-existent. Today, it’s preached as though Christ Preached it and the Apostles Echoed it and as though the early Christians lived it. Yes, there’s “no” such thing as faith to get worldly things for “Prosperity beyond need” because it contradicts this Verse clearly (Verse in Image too):

 

“… Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. …” (1 John 2:15, NKJV)

 

In Church History, the “Prosperity Gospel” was only found amongst Heretics as these two Powerful First Christianity Quotes will prove:

 

1) St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

St. Irenaeous regarding those gnostic heretics who will only ‘teach’ the ‘secrets of God’ if the attendees pay a “high PRICE” (i.e. “pay money”) to them, to quote:

 

“… 3. Now what follows from all this? No light tragedy comes out of it, as the fancy of every man among them pompously explains, one in one way, and another in another, from what kind of passion and from what element being derived its origin. They have good reason, as seems to me, WHY THEY SHOULD NOT FEEL INCLINED TO TEACH THESE THINGS TO ALL IN PUBLIC, BUT ONLY TO SUCH ARE ABLE TO PAY A HIGH PRICE FOR AN ACQUAINTANCE WITH SUCH PROFOUND MYSTERIES. For THESE DOCTRINES ARE NOT AT ALL SIMILAR TO THOSE OF WHICH OUR LORD SAID, “FREELY YE HAVE RECEIVED, FREELY GIVE.” They are, on the contrary, abstruse, and portentous, and profound mysteries, TO BE GOT AT ONLY WITH GREAT LABOUR BY SUCH AS ARE IN LOVE WITH FALSEHOOD.  …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 1, Chapter IV, Point 3)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html

 

Questions to ponder:

 

1. Do our Christians or Churches share the ‘theological knowledge which they have “for free” (in their pages or videos or anything) or only via “PAID BIBLE COURSES”?

 

1. Whether or not that ‘theological knowledge is right or not’ is a different issue (as God can have Mercy) but how to have Mercy on someone who “sells” but at the same time doesn’t put anything for free (especially if the risk of not knowing that is ‘eternal hell’)? Is there anything ‘more selfish’ than that?

 

iii. The old childish arguments of “cost of printing” and all that is false because a “pdf” costs almost nothing to create and share.

 

1. Also, by “not” selling those books, these same persons are “not” on the streets starving either unless if they sell the books for a living (another easy false claim which has “no” basis either).

 

2) St. Jerome of the Vulgate

 

First Christianity does not have “Bishops amassing Private Fortunes in the Name of God” as each of them ‘lived penniless by Faith’ and never became rich by collecting money in the Name of God.

 

All Money collected in the Church went to Church Maintenance, Food and to the Poor (no Bishops in First Christianity ever stored up any money for themselves, in case you didn’t know). This latter heresy was building up in the Time of Blessed St. Jerome where he writes:

 

“… Under Christ’s banner seek for no worldly gain, lest having more than when you first became a clergyman, you hear men say, to your shame, “Their portion shall not profit them.” Welcome poor men and strangers to your homely board, that with them Christ may be your guest. A clergyman who engages in business, and who rises from poverty to wealth, and from obscurity to a high position, avoid as you would the plague. … MANY BUILD CHURCH NOWADAYS; THEIR WALLS and PILLARS of GLOWING MARBLE, THEIR CEILINGS GLITTERING WITH GOLD, THEIR ALTARS STUDDED WITH JEWELS.  YET TO THE CHOICE OF CHRIST’S MINISTRS NO HEED IS PAID, And let no one allege against me the wealth of the temple in Judaea, its table, its lamps, its censers, its dishes, its cups, its spoons,1363 and the rest of its golden vessels. If these were approved by the Lord it was at a time when the priests had to offer victims and when the blood of sheep was the redemption of sins. They were figures typifying things still future and were “written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come.” BUT NOW OUR LORD BY HIS POVERTY HAS CONSECRATED THE POVERTY OF HIS HOUSE. Let us, therefore, think of His cross and count riches to be but dirt. WHY DO WE ADMIRE WHAT CHRIST CALLS “the MAMMON OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS”? (Luke 16:9)  Why do we cherish and love what it is Peter’s boast not to possess? Or if we insist on keeping to the letter and find the mention of gold and wealth so pleasing, let us keep to everything else as well as the gold. … It is the GLORY OF A BISHOP TO MAKE PROVISION FOR THE WANTS OF THE POOR; BUT IT IS THE SHAME OF ALL PRIESTS to AMASS PRIVATE FORTUNES. …” – Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Second Latin Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I  (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD, ‘Letter LII. To Nepotian’, Points 4, 5, 6, 10 in some order)

 

Source:

 

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/NPNF2-06/Npnf2-06-03.htm#P1872_458890

 

Example: Blessed Abraham and Blessed Job (common quoted Old Testament examples) were rich by ‘secular work’ and NOT by collecting tithes or church offerings as you can research the Bible and see that NO LEVITE Priest even was RICH by amassing such money or possessions from ‘money collected in the Name of God’. If any preacher simply states that it exists (that PRIESTS made themselves RICH BEYOND NEEDS in the OLD TESTAMENT), please ask for a Verse and you will see that there is “none”.

 

In fact, the “opposite” has been Warned where if a PRIEST does PROFANE the OFFERINGS (including TITHES in these Verses)  for example by living in luxury or “not” following the RULES for those PRIESTS who LIVE BY TITHES (which included actually inheriting “no” property even at a time when both ‘money & property & Levites having families existed’ and so “no” modern differences), to quote the ‘actual Bible Verses’:

 

“… 24For the TITHES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, which they offer up as a heave offering to the Lord, I have given to the Levites [j]as an inheritance; therefore I have said to them, ‘AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL THEY SHALL HAVE NO INHERITANCE.’ ” 25Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 26“Speak thus to the Levites, and say to them: ‘When you take from the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them as your inheritance, then you shall offer up a heave offering of it to the Lord, a tenth of the tithe.  …   31You may eat it in any place, you and your households, for it is your [l]reward for your work in the tabernacle of meeting. 32And you shall bear no sin because of it, when you have lifted up the best of it. But YOU SHALL NOT PROFANE THE HOLY GIFTS of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, LEST YOU DIE.’ ” …” (Numbers 18:24 – 25, 31 – 32, NKJV)

 

Comment: Whether God is Going to use that strict of a Rule in New Testament times for those Churches or Pastors which practice tithing, I don’t know. But what I know is, this was the ORIGINAL OLD TESTAMENT RULE for ANY PRIEST who LIVED ON TITHE MONEY and so decide for yourselves how you will but stretching it to ‘PROSPERITY LIVING and SALARIES’ based on TITHE MONEY and OFFERINGS COLLECTED IN THE NAME of GOD may RISK ETERNAL HELL as the last line above WARNS as it may be a clear type of PROFANEMENT of these TITHES/OFFERINGS (Context here): “… But YOU [Levites/Priests] SHALL NOT PROFANE THE HOLY GIFTS of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, LEST YOU DIE. …” (Numbers 18:32).

 

I repeat, I am “not” saying that those prosperity-pastors or divorce-allowing pastors and Christians/Churches are ‘unsaved for sure’ but based on these First Christianity quotes, it’s certainly “possible” but we don’t need to Judge nor condemn them as we already pointed out these “Bible Verses” and First Christianity quotes which prove the ‘Safe Way Scripturally’ instead. Let God Alone Decide.

 

But if these modern preachers are wrong on these two points (of divorce-remarrying for the innocent-spouse-claim and the prosperity-gospel), they could go to “Eternal Hell” in light of all these Bible Verses and First Christianity quotes (more in links provided) and so I am “not” taking those risks (personal stance).

 

Conclusion

 

‘… Truth is always Free, Lies are always Sold …’ – Anonymous

 

“… 6And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. 7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:6 – 8, NKJV)

 

Note: Regarding the Testimony of St. Irenaeous and other Church Fathers whom I quote, if you are really keen on some ‘real Church History’ in a brevity type of writing, please consider the nice ‘free pdf’ below:

http://www.gibcjupiter.org/site/user/files/1/grace-and-granite-20170920.pdf

 

Comment: Not all what the ‘author of the pdf’ resembles the Church Fathers (for example he seems to allow the so called innocent party of the divorced to re-marry which is “not” supported by any Church Fathers who taught the opposite and so he evades quoting any ‘actual Church History’ quotes for those topics but just states ‘his modern opinion’ on Page 261 onward).

 

Here’s a refutation example for his claim using the “Shepherd of Hermas”:

 

The Shepherd of Hermas “Possible” Scripture seems to point to such Christians to be “unsaved”, not just them but also “those who approve them” agreeing with First Christianity’s Earliest Church Leaders who understood Lord Jesus Christ’s Purest Words Likewise.

 

To quote (where in the example given below,  ‘the husband’ is the ‘relatively innocent party’):

 

“… I say to him, “Sir, permit me to ask thee a few more questions” “Say on,” saith he. “Sir,” say I, “IF A MAN n who has a wife that is FAITHFUL IN THE LORD detect her in adultery, doth the husband sin in living with her?” “So long as he is ignorant,” saith he, “he sinneth not; but if the husband know of her sin, and the wife repent not, but continue in her fornication, and her husband live with her, he makes himself responsible for her sin and an accomplice in her adultery.” Let him DIVORCE HER,” saith he, “and LET THE HUSBAND ABIDE ALONE: but IF AFTER DIVORCING HIS WIFE HE SHALL MARRY ANOTHER, HE LIKEWISE COMMITTETH ADULTERY.“… If therefore in SUCH DEEDS as these likewise a man CONTINUE AND REPENT NOT, KEEP AWAY FROM HIM, and LIVE NOT WITH HIM. OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO ART A PARTAKER OF HIS SIN …  For this cause ye were ENJOINED TO REMAIN SINGLE, whether husband or wife; FOR IN SUCH CASES REPENTANCE IS POSSIBLE …” – The Angel which Presideth Over  Repentance in the Shepherd of Hermas (Mandate 4, Verses 1[29]:4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

Comment: Please notice carefully that ‘repentance’ is only possible for those “innocent-party-faithful-man-in-the-Lord” who “divorced” his “adulterous wife” if he “REMAINS SINGLE” (referring clearly to NO REMARRIAGE and just remaining SINGLE) as even the last phrase above strongly emphasizes clearly as follows: “… ENJOINED TO REMAIN SINGLE, whether husband or wife; FOR IN SUCH CASES REPENTANCE IS POSSIBLE …”. I have discussed this in detail in previous posts in links below (if keen):

 

1. i) Divorced and Remarried – Unsaved Christians?

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10158846622677784

 

1. ii) Divorce or Separated – Bible Truth (Quoting even Church Fathers preaching likewise with “Bible Verses”)

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10158230216892784

 

My point is this: Please focus on the ‘Bible Verses’ and ‘Church Fathers quotes regarding it’ for that would be most likely true. If Church Fathers’ quotes contradict then there is a “possibility” for that topic that either could be true.

 

If the Shepherd of Hermas and Church Fathers quotes are true, “not” just those who ‘remarry after divorce are condemned but also those who approve it as the quote above seems to strongly ring’ as per these haunting phrases: ‘… If therefore in SUCH DEEDS as these likewise a man CONTINUE AND REPENT NOT, KEEP AWAY FROM HIM, and LIVE NOT WITH HIM. OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO ART A PARTAKER OF HIS SIN …’ . So if ‘modern prosperity Christianity’ wants to take such risks, let them but I prefer the Safe Route Scripturally as shown.

 

Also, I have explained in detail regarding the “Shepherd of Hermas” Writing how it was Scripture in much of First Christianity and today it’s one of the “Apostolic Fathers’ Writing” in pages 61 to 71 in the Book titled “Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24

December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Interpreting Scripture – Please read both sides and decide for yourselves which is right carefully because God can hold us Accountable

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161447661137784

 

Clue: I prefer First Christianity Writings instead of the thousands of modern denominations. We need to interpret at least “His Commands” rightly and “not” worry about eschatology so much because the latter has “not” occurred yet and thus 1 Corinthians 4:5 allows the “Judge nothing before its time” (since future prophecies have not come to pass fall into this category allows for this Context) as ‘it is Written’.

 

“… “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” …” – Blessed Nicodemus (John 7:51, NKJV)

 

“… But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. …” (Acts 4:19, NKJV)

 

“… Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:57, NKJV)

 

Note: The ‘number of people convinced against Bible Verses’ serves as “no” proof of Truth as even the Roman Catholics can do ‘so much more than any of the modern protestant denominations in the Name of Christ too being MORE PROSPEROUS IN MONEY/WEALTH to CONVERTING MORE SOULS to even DOING MORE CHARITY etc.’. It’s all about “NEVER GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN” as 1 Corinthians 4:6 has Warned. Verses:

 

“… Therefore JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COMES, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God. 6Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us NOT TO THINK BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7For who [d]MAKES YOU DIFFER FROM ANOTHER? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? … 14I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16Therefore I URGE YOU, IMITATE ME. 17For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.  …” (1 Corinthians 4:5 – 7, 14 – 17, NKJV)

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

First Christianity is Loaded with these Mysteries

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161454362692784

 

 

1) St. Athanasius also played one of the most important role to decide that there are 27 books in the New Testament, example quotes:

 

1. i) Protestant Source

 

“… Athanasius of Alexandria (A.D. 296-373) was the most prominent theologian of the fourth century, and he served as bishop of Alexandria. His list of canonical books was published as part of his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle of A.D. 367. After the list he declares, “these are the wells of salvation, so that he who thirsts may be satisfied with the sayings in these. Let no one add to these. Let nothing be taken away.” …”

Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/athanasius.html

 

Or https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-28/367-athanasius-defines-new-testament.html

 

1. ii) Actually his same Letter/Source reveals further that though he chose 27 Books as certainly inspired, he did also accept the “Shepherd of Hermas” though not with equal level as the earlier books just like the Mysterious Muratorian Canon or Roman Canon mentioned likewise too

“… These are the springs of salvation, in order that he who is thirsty may fully refresh himself with the words contained in them. In them alone is the doctrine of piety proclaimed. Let no one add anything to them or take anything away from them… But for the sake of greater accuracy I add, being constrained to write, that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE))

 

Source: http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml

 

Note: Quoting the later councils and all that doesn’t matter so much because they all quote St. Athanasius for the 27 Book New Testament as even the Protestants do. I know of no earlier leader of the church to mention such number of books but may list more too or less too or not mention some too.

 

I have discussed these same quotes and more on Page 176 onward in the free downloadable pdf for the Book titled “Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven” (if keen) in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xQJg2QVNo8B4DCpNn_yTpEGXtG0iRmii/view?usp=sharing

Peace to you

 

A keen eye would notice that for St. Athanasius at that time even, the “Book of Esther” was “outside of the Bible” (just like the Shepherd of Hermas or others mentioned in his quote above) but today is one of the 66 books meaning these other books also could be likewise in his quote above:

 

“…that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd.  …”

*Shepherd = Shepherd of Hermas (in quote above)

 

St. Athanasius clearly points that each of these listed books are “accepted” while he states as “Apocrypha”  in his usage here “NOT” referring to these books but ‘other fake books made by heretics’ (which are “not” listed here meaning what is “not” listed could be potentially from heretical sources). That quote from above:

 

“…And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” …”

 

Comments, please consider these phrases carefully:

 

1) “… the former are in the canon  …” = 27 New Testament Books (Accepted)

 

2) “… and the latter serve as reading matter, …” = “… .that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd [of Hermas]. …” (Accepted)

 

3) “… yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics …” = Books which are “not” listed above (Rejected).  Interesting, isn’t it?

 

 

 

 

 

OSAS and NON-ELECT SALVATION Possibility with the Possible Scripture Shepherd of Hermas and Beyond

 

1) What is OSAS?

 

OSAS stands for “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrinal stance where it was Preached like the great late evangelist Mr. Billy Graham. It basically means that if you have believed in Christ (be Saved), no matter what you sin after that, you will eventually be saved where they quote Bible Verses such as “… whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life …” (John 3:16) making the claim of Salvation based on “FAITH ALONE” (Sola Fide). The extremes of OSAS clearly points that the “WORKS of SIN” does not affect the Final Salvation at all despite one may be punished in this life (or in the afterlife via “Saved by Fire”?). Based on this, they encourage anyone to just believe (or try to believe) so that they could be hope for them.  However, other Christians oppose this position mainly based on the fact that Hebrews 10 or Matthew 22 (as just discussed in last chapter) points to the rejection of MANY and FEW SAVED based on THEIR WORKS. But as we have seen on Page 122 earlier, the Context for “Few Saved” can also refer to the First Resurrection number meaning some could be Saved during the Second Resurrection which can include ‘fallen Christians’ who could be “SAVED by FIRE” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15) as per First Christianity’s Chiliasm Champion  of Faith’s quote below which refers to this TIMELINE of between the FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION (1000 years Time Period, Revelation 20:5) where some can be “SAVED after this LAKE of FIRE” destroying THEIR WORKS OF SIN (possibly a type of non-Elect Salvation), to quote these:

 

1. i) Saved by Fire

 

“… 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.  …” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

1. ii) The “Fire” in “Saved by Fire” referred to is the “Lake of Fire” Context

 

“… 13each ONE’S WORK will become clear; FOR THE DAY WILL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT WILL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; and THE FIRE WILL TEST EACH ONE’S WORK, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.” (1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15, NKJV)

Note: Either way, there is “loss” despite “being saved” if we end up “saved by fire” where this “Fire” refers to the “Lake of Fire” Context simply because it refers to the “FIRE which is to be REVEALED on THAT DAY (when He Returns or perhaps Judgment Day 1000 years later, no one knows which for sure) in Verses above for ‘this Salvation case’ (most likely non-Elect Salvation I think).

 

iii) First Christianity Quote for Salvation of “Saved by Fire” referring to the “Lake of Fire” Context

 

“… “OUR SAVIOUR has appointed TWO KINDS of RESURRECTION in the APOCALYPSE. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION,’ for such COME TO GRACE WITHOUT JUDGMENT. As FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT COME TO THE FIRST, but are reserved unto the SECOND RESURRECTION, THESE SHALL BE DISCIPLINED UNTIL THEIR APPOINTED TIMES, BETWEEN THE FIRST AND THE SECOND RESURRECTION.” …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD)

 

Source: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ambrose    or

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose#

 

1. iv) Existence of OSAS Christians

 

“… 67. There are SOME, indeed, WHO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT ABANDON the NAME OF CHRIST, and WHO ARE BAPTIZED in his laver in the Church, who are NOT CUT OFF FROM IT BY SCHISM or HERESY, WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE THUS, and are STILL CATHOLICS, ARE DECEIVED, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. For the divine Scripture, when consulted, answers differently. Moreover, I have written a book about this question, entitled Faith and Works,142 in which, with God’s help, I have shown as best I could that, according to Holy Scripture, the faith that saves is the faith that the apostle Paul adequately describes when he says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but the faith which works through love.”143 But if faith works evil and not good, then without doubt, according to the apostle James “it is dead in itself.”144 He then goes on to say, “If a man says he has faith, yet has not works, can his faith be enough to save him? …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Point 67, “Faith and Works”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

 

Comments:

 

1. OSAS Type of Doctrine

 

“… 67. There are SOME, indeed, WHO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT ABANDON the NAME OF CHRIST, and WHO ARE BAPTIZED in his laver in the Church, who are NOT CUT OFF FROM IT BY SCHISM or HERESY, WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. …”

 

1. Please notice carefully that St. Augustine believed in the CHARITY DOCTRINE as a MUST FOR REPENTANCE and ALSO FOR JUDGMENT of SINS to be REMOVED, his quote here (which many protestants deny but CHRIST TAUGHT it clearly in LUKE 11:39 – 45 in this Context too):

 

“… WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY …”

Please notice the Relative Measure of ability to do REPENTANCE and ALMS (= Charity Doctrine) till the ‘last day’ of one’s earthly life  in St. Augustine’s phrase above proving he believed in it as he contrasts the OSAS type of Christians to DENY THESE.

 

 

 

iii. Some Type of Salvation (possibly non-Elect) is believed by such OSAS Christians even in the Context of LAKE of FIRE quoting 1 Corinthians 3:15’s Context likewise here

“… – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. …”

 

1. Please notice carefully that even St. Augustine (as strict as he is portrayed) does NOT call these Christians (Catholic means ‘Universal Christians’) as believing in HERESY NOR SCHISM but are STILL SAVED regardless proving clearly that even if errors in Doctrine are made about these areas NO ONE IS A HERETIC

 

“… BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE THUS, and are STILL CATHOLICS, ARE DECEIVED, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. …”

1. v) Existence of UNIVERSALIST Christians in First Christianity

 

“… “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. …” — St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.)

Source: https://www.mercyuponall.org/tag/church-fathers/

 

or

“… Yet even in his wrath–his wrath resting on them–he does not “shut up his mercy.” This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. … Now, if this wrath were all there is in man’s damnation, and even if it were present only in the slightest degree conceivable–still, to be lost out of the Kingdom of God, to be an exile from the City of God, to be estranged from the life of God, to suffer loss of the great abundance of God’s blessings which he has hidden for those who fear him and prepared for those who hope in him240 –this would be a punishment so great that, if it be eternal, no torments that we know could be compared to it, no matter how many ages they continued. …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Points 112 – 113, CHAPTER XXIX. “The Last Things”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

Note: St. Augustine of Hippo himself affirms in his own words here that we may contemplate such a possibility described above as “not Denying Holy Scripture” (and hence we are not heretics) even though he believed in Eternal Hell for the Wicked.

 

Also the “Opinion of St. Augustine” is very important indeed simply because even Blessed John Calvin (Founder of the Reformed Church Protestants) himself learnt his theology from St. Augustine’s Writings. Example quote:

 

“…  Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings  …” – Blessed John Calvin, Protestant Reformer Theologian (Creator of the Five Point Calvinism or Tulips Doctrine for Protestanism)

Source: Calvin, John. A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God. in Calvin, John (1987). Calvin’s Calvinism. Translated by Henry Cole. Grandville, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association. p. 38

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinian_Calvinism

 

1. vi) St. Ambrose’s Quotes detailing the Lake of Fire understanding as Salvation is Possible from there? You decide, example discussion in support of it is as follows:

 

St. Ambrose defined Luke 12:49 to refer to the Final Lake of Fire/Gehenna Judgment as the Final Baptism of Fire on that Day toward the Wicked or Fallen Believers too where the sin or the work of the flesh:

 

“… I came to set the earth on fire, and what is my will, if not that finally it lights up? [Luke 12:49] I must be baptized with a baptism, and what is my torment as long as it is not accomplished! ” Higher up, He has kept us vigilant, waiting at all times for the coming of the Lord Savior, lest by slackening, by negligence, by differing from day to day his work, such, preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all, in the form of a general precept; but the theme of the following comparison seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them. But as the profit is thin, and the merit is low, when it is the fear of the punishment which prevents from going astray, since the charity and the love have a superior dignity, the Lord sharpens our zeal to deserve its favor and we are inflamed with the desire to acquire God, saying, “I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;… They have thus taught with evidentness what is the action of this fire, which enlightens the intimate of the heart. For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:49 – 50)

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrose-on-luke-12

 

 

Proof Phrase that this Refers to the Final Lake of Fire Judgment toward those Christians who are treated as Unbelievers (Luke 12:46) from the above by St. Ambrose himself: “… I came to set the earth on fire … preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all… seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them … I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;…”.

 

 

Indeed, you can clearly see that St. Ambrose reveals that some Christian leaders or bishops are punished as unbelievers (Luke 12:46) in the Lake of Fire Context (hence the current purgatory is not enough) during the future Day of Judgment in a fire which produces ‘good will’ as he even quotes 1 Corinthians 3:12 implying that 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15 may be applied to mean Salvation from the Lake of Fire, yes “even so through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15) toward such fallen-believers who are deemed equal to unbelievers who have ‘equal sentences’ (Luke 12:46) proving our Context Claim Right Again. Can you see it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless, the “wicked” are said to be in the lake of Fire only till the last penny (not forever but an Aeonian Sentence which is proportioned according to their sin) as St. Ambrose’s commentary on Verses 58 – 59 prior clearly prove as follows:

 

“… It will be the same at the end of time: the angels will come to separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. … On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

Christ Himself is the “Fire” through which they are Saved (1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15) as St. Ambrose Revealed above:

 

“… For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:49, highlighted)

 

Strangely, the Commentary for Luke 12:46 – 48 is missing in the link above. Did St. Ambrose not write it or was it lost in history?

 

Two Ways Sin is Diminished in the ‘Prison’ of the Lake of Fire

 

Bible Verses:

 

 

“… For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent. …” – Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:58 – 59, NASB)

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. a) 1st & 2nd Way Combined (the Last Baptism of Fire which applies to All Human Being either in this life or next – Mark 9:49, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17):

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. Now it is the custom, as we remember, to give a bath to the baths: by presenting it, everyone obtains the faculty of bathing there; so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

1. b) 1st Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

1. c) 2nd Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above… the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

I repeat: Though I argue as though St. Ambrose must have believed like this, I am “not” Saying that this must be it but as a “possibility” only these days since no one can say for sure. So for Truth’s sake, I present the evidence for such claims accordingly from Orthodox First Christianity and not by quoting heretics.

 

 

 

vii) St. Ambrose of Milan himself could have been an Universalist

 

St. Augustine’s Teacher and Converter, St. Ambrose of Milan himself may have believed in Universalism too, Example Quotes:

 

 

“… 167. How, then, will they be brought into subjection? In the way that the Lord Himself has said. “Take My yoke upon you.” It is not the fierce that bear the yoke, but the humble and the gentle. This clearly is NON BASE SUBJECTION for MEN, but a GLORIOUS ONE: “that in the NAME of JESUS EVERY KNEE should bow, of things in heaven and things beneath; and that EVERY  TONGUE should CONFESS that JESUS IS LORD in the Glory of God the Father.” But for this reason all things were not made subject before, for they had not yet received the wisdom of God, not yet did they wear the easy yoke of the Word on the neck as it were of their mind. “But as many as received Him,” as it is written, “to them gave He power to become the sons of God.” 168. Will any one say that Christ is now made subject, because MANY have BELIEVED? Certainly NOT. For Christ’s subjection lies NOT in a FEW but in ALL. For just as I do not seem to be brought into subjection, if the flesh in me as yet lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, although I am in part subdued; so because the WHOLE CHURCH is the one body of Christ, we DIVIDE CHRIST as long as the HUMAN RACE DISAGREES. Therefore Christ is not yet made subject, for His members are not yet brought into subjection. But when we have become, not many members, but one spirit, then He also will become subject, in order that through His subjection   “God may be ALL and IN ALL.”  …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: Selected Works and Letters, Book V Prologue, Points 167 – 168,  Page 720)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

 

 

 

 

“… Let us then shortly sum up our CONCLUSION on the whole matter. A unity of power puts aside all idea of a degrading subjection. His giving up of power, and His victory as conqueror won over death, have not lessened His power. Obedience works out subjection. Christ has taken obedience upon Himself, obedience even to taking on Him our flesh, the cross even to gaining our salvation. Thus where the work lies, there too is the Author of the work. When therefore, all things have become subject to Christ, through Christ’s obedience, so that ALL bend their knees in His name, then He Himself will be ALL in ALL. For NOW, since ALL do NOT BELIEVE, ALL do NOT seem to be in SUBJECTION. But WHEN ALL have BELIEVED and DONE the will of God, then Christ will be ALL and in ALL. And when Christ is all and in all, then will God be all and in all; for the Father abides ever in the Son. How, then, is He shown to be weak, Who redeemed the weak? …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Selected Works and Letters, Page 726, Chapter 15, Point 182)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

 

“… This is that peace above all peace which shall be granted AFTER the THIRD SHAKING of the heaven, the sea, the earth and the dry land, when He shall DESTROY ALL PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS [Ephesians 6:12, Colossians 2:15, Isaiah 24:21]. For HEAVEN and EARTH shall PASS AWAY [Revelation 21:1],306 and ALL  the FASHION of this WORLD [1 Corinthians 7:31, 1 John 2:17]; … And thus there will be peace over all, the passions of the body offering no resistance, and the UNBELIEVING mind NO OBSTACLE [Romans 3:3 – 4], that CHRIST may be ALL in ALL [1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28], offering in SUBJECTION to the Father the HEARTS of ALL MEN [1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10] …”  – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, LETTER XXX, AMBROSE TO IRENAEUS, GREETING, Point 14)

 

Source:

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/ambrose_letters_03_letters21_30.htm

 

 

“… Paul makes a prayer for himself when he says: ‘That God may open the ‘door of his Word for me to announce the MYSTERY of CHRIST.‘ 15 Appropriate for the occasion was the substance of his prayer. In preaching the Gospel he was clearly chosen to be the one who opened the door of the Word, from which issued the SALVATION of the GENTILES and LIFE itself for ALL PEOPLE. … [Salvation for Which People? Context: All Men = the Whole Human Race as St. Ambrose explains just three points later as follows] … You are instructed above all to pray for the people, that is, for ALL MEN [1 Timothy 2:1], 28 for all members of your family, which is a conspicuous sign of mutual love. If you make a petition for yourself, then you pray merely for your own satisfaction. If everyone were thus to make a petition just for himself, he would become, not a petitioner, but an intercessor for favors. We conclude, therefore, that a petition for oneself is restricted to the person petitioning, whereas a PETITION for ALL MEN INCLUDES ONESELF, as you are a part of that number. Hence, great is the recompense wherein ALL MEN are accorded the benefits acquired by the prayers of each individual of the group. In this there is no question of presumption. Rather, it is much more the reflection of a humble heart, bestowing benefits more abundantly. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: fathers of the church, Gain and Abel, Points 36, 39, Chapter 9 Page 392, 395)

 

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/fathersofthechur027571mbp/fathersofthechur027571mbp_djvu.txt

 

Again, no one can say for certain if St. Ambrose of Milan was a Universalist or not but it certainly “possible” in light of all these quotes from his writings. As I said, we consider these as a “possibility” since no one knows for sure.

 

 

Comment: So John 3:16 can include such ones too, right? If not, then this Verse Speaks of a possible “non-Elect Salvation” and Let God Decide one day which is the case. Now even if the Context of Verses above Speaks of a “Fallen Christian” (Luke 12:46 – 48), his portion (final fate) is said to be EQUAL to UNBELIEVERS (Luke 12:46) meaning that these Verses could likewise all point to the NON-ELECT SALVATION of SAVED BY FIRE (1 Corinthians 3:15) making OSAS and possibly Christ Centered Universalism true likewise for “RANSOM for ALL” (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:6) may point really to “… ALL MEN to be SAVED …” eventually (1 Timothy 2:4) and hence PRAYERS and THANKSGIVINGs are made for ALL MEN in light of this Hope (1 Timothy 2:1) though some “BY [Lake of Fire] FIRE” only if these are understood in this way which is “possible” too as demonstrated via St. Ambrose of Milan’s quotes itself here.

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; … 4Who will have ALL MEN to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. … 6Who gave himself a RANSOM for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME[s]. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …” (1 Timothy 2:1, 4, 6 – 7, KJV)

 

2) St. Athanasius and RANSOM for ALL Meaning

St. Athanasius seems to understand that Christ’s “Ransom for ALL” includes even to the JEWS who DID NOT BELIEVE in HIM on earth too in the context of “SALVATION for ALL” eventually (if this is what he meant below, difficult, right?)

 

“… He it is that was crucified before the sun and all creation as witnesses, and before those who put Him to death: and by His death has SALVATION  come to ALL, and ALL CREATION  been RANSOMED. He is the Life of all, and He it is that as a sheep yielded His body to death as a substitute, for the SALVATION  of ALL, even though the Jews believe it not…” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, Point 7, S:37. PSALM XXII. 16, &C. MAJESTY OF HIS BIRTH AND DEATH. CONFUSION OF ORACLES AND DEMONS IN EGYPT)

 

Source: https://www.ecatholic2000.com/fathers/untitled-820.shtml#_Toc390306303

 

1. ii) St. Athanasius and NON-ELECT Salvation POSSIBILITY

 

This Context is strong because we know that St. Athanasius most likely believed in some type of non-Elect Salvation FROM HADES too based on his quote below (pointing to BELIEVING after SEEING POSSIBILITY as discussed in earlier Books)

 

“… And if a man has gone down even to HADES, and stands awestruck before the heroes who have descended thither, regarding them as gods, still he may see the fact of Christ’s resurrection and His victory over death, and reason from it that, of all these, He alone is very Lord and God. For the Lord touched all parts of creation, and freed and undeceived them all from every deceit. As St. Paul says, “Having put off from Himself the principalities and the powers, He triumphed on the cross,”(Col. 2. 15) so that no one could possibly be any longer deceived, but everywhere might find the very Word of God. For thus man, enclosed on every side by the works of creation and everywhere-in heaven, in HADES, in men and on the earth, beholding the unfolded Godhead of the Word, is no longer deceived concerning God, but worships Christ alone, and through Him rightly knows the Father. On these grounds, then, of reason and of principle, we will fairly silence the Gentiles in their turn. But if they think these arguments insufficient to confute them, we will go on in the next chapter to prove our point from facts. … ” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, ‘On the Incarnation’, , Ibid, Chapter 7/ Section 45)

 

Translation Source:

https://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.7.htm

 

iii) St. Athanasius’ Approval of the Shepherd of Hermas for ‘Greater Accuracy’

 

Now, since St. Athanasius also ACCEPTED the SHEPHERD of HERMAS WRITING QUOTED EARLIER in the CONTEXT of NON-ELECT SALVATION as TRUTH (even if not at the Level of Canonical Scripture) as he says to “GREATER ACCURACY in regards to the DOCTRINE of PIETY” (his own words testify as follows):

 

“… These are the springs of salvation, in order that he who is thirsty may fully refresh himself with the words contained in them. In them alone is the doctrine of piety proclaimed. Let no one add anything to them or take anything away from them… But for the sake of greater accuracy I add, being constrained to write, that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE))  Source: http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml

 

Note: Quoting the later councils and all that doesn’t matter so much because they all quote St. Athanasius for the 27 Book New Testament as even the Protestants do. I know of no earlier leader of the church to mention such number of books but may list more too or less too or not mention some too. I have discussed these same quotes and more on Page 179 onward in this Book.

A keen eye would notice that for St. Athanasius at that time even, the “Book of Esther” was “outside of the Bible” (just like the Shepherd of Hermas or others mentioned in his quote above) but today is one of the 66 books meaning these other books also could be likewise in his quote above: “…that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd.  …”

 

*Shepherd = Shepherd of Hermas (in quote above)

 

St. Athanasius clearly points that each of these listed books are “accepted” while he states as “Apocrypha”  in his usage here “NOT” referring to these books but ‘other fake books made by heretics’ (which are “not” listed here meaning what is “not” listed could be potentially from heretical sources). That quote from above:

 

“…And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” …”

 

Comments, please consider these phrases carefully:

 

1) “… the former are in the canon  …” = 27 New Testament Books (Accepted)

 

2) “… and the latter serve as reading matter, …” = “… .that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd [of Hermas]. …” (Accepted)

 

3) “… yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics …” = Books which are “not” listed above (Rejected).

 

4) Shepherd of Hermas and NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY

 

1. i) Firstly, each is given a Relative Measure of Faith according to GRACE GIVEN

 

“… For I say, through the GRACE GIVEN to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A MEASURE OF FAITH. …” (Romans 12:3, NKJV)

Comment: The phrase “… as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A MEASURE OF FAITH. …” in the above itself proves that ‘Christianity will have differences In Doctrine where we could get some parts right others wrong or vice versa’ but yet CAN BE SAVED (room for error is there). If there is “no” rooms for Doctrinal Errors, then there wouldn’t be a “measure” of “faith” but “equal” measure of “faith” to all which is NOT what’s Written here. So, regarding ‘who is right doctrinally, let God Decide One Day and Reward accordingly’.

 

We use the “Shepherd of Hermas” Writing because in the last section prior, we already showed that St. Athanasius the Great himself proves it as “True” in the Context of “GREATER ACCURACY” in ‘his own words’. So this could be a Doctrinal “Possibility” since we are not sure 100%. Please bear in mind that this Shepherd of Hermas was considered Scripture by many Champions of Faith in early Christianity even as discussed say in Pages 61 to 63 in the free #EternalhellAnnihilationandUniversalismBook while in Pages 64 to 68 the NON-ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY is DICUSSED to INCLUDE EVEN THE UNBAPTIZED Persons (that’s why this must be a NON-ELECT SALVATION if True) as it is PLACED OUTSIDE the TOWER (which is the CHURCH). Example quotes:

 

1. a) Shepherd of Hermas was considered Scripture by these First Christianity Greats of Faith

 

Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens

Please be careful of some Protestant attitude to simply claim some very rough language against the ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book because if on Judgment Day it turns out to be “Scripture”, condemning any Scripture could be liable to the “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” which has “no” forgiveness either in this age nor in the age to come:

“… Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:32, NKJV)

 

1. b) Shepherd of Hermas non-Elect Salvation Quotes

 

“… “Now the other stones which you saw cast far away from the tower, and falling upon the public road and rolling from it into pathless places, are those who have indeed believed, but through doubt have abandoned the true road. Thinking, then, that they could find a better, they wander and become wretched, and enter upon pathless places. But those which fell into the fire and were burned? are those who have departed for ever from the living God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed. Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

The part in quote above which proves non-Elect salvation Outside the “Tower = Church” here: “… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS.  …”.

 

1. c) How do we know that the Context of “Tower” here Parabolically refers to the “Tower of Repentance”? It’s Described earlier as follows ‘Tower [of Repentance]’ = ‘the Church’ = ‘the Elect Salvation’ so the Salvation described earlier must be a ‘Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER (Church) in ANOTHER PLACE MUCH MORE INFERIOR, hence NON-ELECT SALVATION’ if these are read ‘as it is Written’ here and ‘Compared’, to quote:

 

“…  “Many indeed shall hear, and hearing, some shall be glad, and some shall weep. But even these, if they hear and repent, shall also rejoice. Hear, then, the PARABLES of the TOWER; for I will reveal all to you, and give me no more trouble in regard to revelation: for these revelations have an end, for they have been completed. But you will not cease praying for revelations, for you are shameless. The TOWER which you see building is myself, THE CHURCH, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion. Ask, then, whatever you like in regard to the tower, and I will reveal it to you, that you may rejoice with the saints.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter III, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

1. ii) Born Again Bible Verses

 

“… 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” …” (John 3:3 – 6, NKJV)

 

iii) Shepherd of Hermas Born Again Quotes

 

“… 13[90]:5 “Listen,” saith he. “The name of the Son of God is great and incomprehensible, and sustaineth the whole world. If then all creation is sustained by the Son [of God], what thinkest thou of those that are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk according to His commandments? 13[90]:6 Seest thou then what manner of men He sustaineth? Even those that bear His name with their whole heart. He Himself then is become their foundation, and He sustaineth them gladly, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.” 15[92]:1 “Declare to me, Sir,” say I, “the names of the virgins, and of the women that are clothed in the black garments.” “Hear,” saith he, “the names of the more powerful virgins, those that are stationed at the corners. 15[92]:2 The first is Faith, and the second, Continence, and the third, Power, and the fourth, Long-suffering. But the others stationed between them have these names–Simplicity, Guilelessness, Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding, Concord, Love. He that beareth these names and the name of the Son of God shall be able to enter into the kingdom of God. 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall see the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.” …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, Chapter 13 to 15, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

 

Or

 

“CHAPTER XIV … Listen,” he said: “the name of the Son of God is great, and cannot be contained, and supports the whole world. If, then, the whole creation is supported by the Son of God, what think ye of those who are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk in His commandments? do you see what kind of persons He supports? Those who bear His name with their whole heart. He Himself, accordingly, became a foundation to them, and supports them with joy, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.”  CHAPTER XV.  “Explain to me, sir,” I said, “the names of these virgins, and of those women who were clothed in black raiment.” “Hear,” he said, “the names of the stronger virgins who stood at the comers. The first is Faith, the second Continence, the third Power, the fourth Patience. And the others standing in the midst of these have the following names: Simplicity, Innocence, Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding, Harmony, Love. He who bears these names and that of the Son of God will be able to enter into the kingdom of God. Hear, also,” he continued, “the names of the women who had the black garments; and of these four are stronger than the rest. The first is Unbelief, the second: Incontinence, the third Disobedience, the fourth Deceit. And their followers are called Sorrow, Wickedness, Wantonness, Anger, Falsehood, Folly, Backbiting, Hatred. The servant of God who bears these names shall see, indeed, the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.” “And the stones, sir,” I said, “which were taken out of the pit and fitted into the building: what are they?” “The first,” he said, “the ten, viz, that were placed as a foundation, are the first generation, and the twenty-five the second generation, of righteous men; and the thirty-five are the prophets of God and His ministers; and the forty are the apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.” “Why, then, sir,” I asked, “did the virgins carry these stones also through the gate, and give them for the building of the tower?” “Because,” he answered, “these were the first who bore these spirits, and they never departed from each other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits remained with them until their falling asleep. And unless they had had these spirits with them, they would not have been of use for the building of this tower.” …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, Chapter 13 to 15, Mr. Donaldson’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

1. iv) SEE His Kingdom – POSSIBLE MEANING

 

 

 

“… Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. …” (John 3:3, NASB)

 

“… 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall SEE the kingdom of God, …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, 15[92]:3, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

 

 

So, SEEing His Kingdom is ONLY for those being BORN AGAIN (John 3:3). The Shepherd of Hermas implies that the WICKED [FALLEN CHRISTIAN or ‘Servants of God’ who WORE THESE BLACK GARMENTS of sin] will SEE His Kingdom and hence MUST be BORN AGAIN too and be “Saved” as per the NON-ELECT Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER most likely (as per quote i) earlier) if “these Verses are compared as it is Written”.

 

Notice that the Shepherd of Hermas clearly mentions that these can SEE the KINGDOM (being BORN AGAIN) but CANNOT ENTER IT implying a SALVATION OUTSIDE the TOWER (Kingdom of God) even if SAVED.

 

This is Possible based on Verses below where being BORN AGAIN (Romans 8:20 – 21) where this aspect of the Sons of God, (His Elect – Romans 8:19) is SHARED by ALL CREATION eventually (Romans 8:22):

 

 

“… 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. …” (Romans 8:19 – 22, NKJV)

 

All Creation (Romans 8:22) —> will be BORN AGAIN (as the Greek Word in Romans 8:22 refers to ‘Birth Pangs’ Implying this, and has the Word ALL in front of ‘Creation’) —> in the Aspect of ‘liberty from Vanity or Decay, the corruption of sin’ causing ‘sin to cease to exist eventually’ as it is mentioned first in Immediate Consecutive Verses (Romans 8:20 – 21) —> where we, the ‘believers in faith’ (of ‘church’) are ‘more special’ inheriting more than just that (as the Verse earlier in Romans 8:19 describes the ‘rest of creation’ awaiting this).

 

In comparison, those who enter the Kingdom of God (Christians) must be BORN BOTH OF WATER and SPIRIT (Keep Repentance and His Commands).

 

1. V) This NON-ELECT Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER includes even the UNBAPTIZED who SINNED LIKEWISE and so in light of the SAME PORTION with UNBELIEVERS for FALLEN CHRISTIANS, this NON-ELECT Salvation TYPE may be POSSIBLE for such too:

 

“… THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER  THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

“… 45But IF THAT SERVANT SAYS in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and WILL CUT HIM IN TWO AND APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN, FROM HIM MUCH WILL BE REQUIRED; and TO WHOM MUCH HAS BEEN COMMITTED, OF HIM THEY WILL ASK THE MORE.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:45 – 48, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

It is certainly “Possible” for such Worst Case Scenarios even and so Let God Decide One Day and I just present it as a “Possibility” only for this “Non-Elect Salvation” for both the sinning Fallen Christian and sinning unbelievers’ same portion of Judgment likewise and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept it.

 

 

Peace to you