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First Christianity Hope for Good non-Christians and Beyond?

Last Updated: 26 August 2020       Firstly, a Free-Downloadable Draft PDF Book Contains these Discussions and More in…

Last Updated: 26 August 2020

 

Firstly, a Free-Downloadable Draft PDF Book Contains these Discussions and More in Link below:

 

 

Book of 1Enoch – Christ Centered Universalism Mystery – Essays in First Christianity

i) Direct Download link

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/download/book-of-1enoch-christ-centered-universalism-mystery-essays-in-first-christianity/

ii) Google Play link

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Jonathan_Ramachandran_Book_of_1Enoch_Christ_Center?id=ef_5DwAAQBAJ

iii) Book Description

‘… Book of 1Enoch is the one which is quoted word for word by Apostle Jude in the Bible. There are other types of Enoch labelled today as 2Enoch etc. which are different. Many of the earlier fathers of the Church such as St. Justin Martyr, St. Ireneous of Lyons, St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen of Alexandria and even the Epistle of Barnabas considered this Book of 1Enoch as Scripture.

Till today, some Churches consider this Book as part of the Biblical Canon. In this Book, we explore an interesting prophecy in Chapter 50 (of a well known translation of this book) which may Speak of a Christ Centered Universalism Hope in some way. In support of that exegesis, we look a few possibly related Bible Verses and even other similar First Christianity Writings which may help us understand this Prophecy better.

Since it’s not in one of the 66 Books of the Bible, we don’t explicitly teach it as a 100% certain doctrine but view it as a possibility. This does not mean that the Prophecy is probabilistic but rather that we don’t know for sure. Only God knows but studying these First Christianity Orthodox writings gives an insight to such a rarely known Hope within Christianity. …’

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can Sins be Forgiven in the Age/Aeon to Come?

“[S]ome sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other.”
― Pope Gregory I, The Dialogues of Saint Gregory the Great

Comment: Pope Gregory means that if ‘all’ sins cannot be forgiven in the coming “Aeon” (age, not world or ‘kosmos’ as translation above renders), then Christ Would “not” have pointed out that “only” the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiven in this age nor the next (Matthew 12:32). In other words, all other sins (except the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) can be forgiven if God Wills to have Mercy in the “Aeon to come” too (Ephesians 2:7) as seem to be implied in “Bible Verses” below:

“Therefore I say to you, EVERY SIN and blasphemy WILL be FORGIVEN MEN, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this AGE or in the AGE to come.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:31 – 32, NKJV)

“that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 2:7, NKJV)

In other words, when Verses 31 – 32 are taken together, it can mean that “EVERY SIN of men” (not believers only) “WILL be FORGIVEN MEN” (eventually) in this AGE (Aeon) or ‘Aeon to come’ except for the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But does it mean this possible way of reading the Holy Scripture above? Only God Knows. Let’s be careful either Way because this is Christ Himself Speaking in these Verses. So, let’s remain in “wonder” instead.

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unsolved Mystery of “All Men”

The Mystery of what the Bible Means as “All Men” in Verse in Image remains. Only God Knows. In this ‘same letter’ (context) the phrase “those who believe” and “all men” are clearly contrasted as one is the subset of the other proving that the case for “all men” to truly mean “all men” is probabilistically higher as I see it, please consider these Verses as it is Written below (and KJV does a Good Translation here since the “Verb – Will Have” is more accurately rendered here though it doesn’t matter since all God’s WIll will come to pass be it a verb or a noun linguistically):

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV)

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” (1 Timothy 4:10, KJV)

Comment: When someone says, “God Will have all men to be Saved”,isn’t it fascinating that that exact phrase is Found in Holy Scripture above “as it is Written”? (Yes, Salvation can be ‘after the Sentencing’ and even due to ‘His Choice to Cancel it’ as some First Christianity Prophecies echo deep into the ages to come or for some even earlier into lower abodes). Mysterious Indeed.

Best is, Blessed St. Ignatius of Antioch’s quotes below in First Christianity seem to point that he understood the “all men” phrase as “all men” and not as ‘all believers’ when quoting 1 Timothy 2:4. Who was he? A direct disciple of Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation. Here are those quotes (discussed in my free e-books too):

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], drew all men to Himself for their eternal salvation [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

and

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a lover of mankind, and “will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bible Mystery – You have Heard it was Said But…

Please consider these Old Testament vs New Testament Verses carefully in each case below:

1) Context of Vows

Old Testament Verse:

“When you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay to pay it; for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and it would be sin to you.” (Deuteronomy 23:21, NKJV)

New Testament Verse: Christ Prohibits it henceforth

“33“Again YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:33 – 37, NKJV)

2) Context of Eye for an Eye Type of Judgment

Old Testament Verse:

” 19then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” (Deuteronomy 19:19 – 21, NKJV)

New Testament Verses: Christ STOPS this PRACTICE!

“38“YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:38 – 42, NKJV)

Can you see that Christ just CANCELLED this OLD TESTAMENT Verse earlier? He Came to Fulfill ALL LAW (Matthew 5:17) where fulfilling this Verse means that He is CANCELLING IT. Mysterious Indeed.

3) Context of Hate

Old Testament Verse (example):

“21Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.” (Psalm 139:21 – 22, NKJV)

New Testament Verses: Christ Cancels the Old Testament ‘hate your enemy’ Verses and Commands to ‘Love your Enemies’ instead to attain to “Perfection”.

“43“YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the [q]tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:43 – 48, NKJV)

Conclusion – The Mystery of YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID.

Firstly, some scholars tell us that the phrase ‘… YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID …’ does not necessarily mean that ‘it is Scripture’. However, Christ also uses that phrase instead of ‘it is written’ in this same chapter in Matthew 5 when quoting some of the 10 Commandments itself (e.g. do not murder or commit adultery too), to quote:

“… 17“Do not think that I came to destroy the LAW (Torah) or the PROPHETS. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. … 21“YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, … 27“YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:17 – 18, 21, 27, NKJV)

Comment: Please take note ‘carefully’ that the most accurate rendition of the Context for the phrase ‘… YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID …’ may refer to the ‘… Law and Prophets …’ as Matthew 5:17 may have defined this ‘Context First’. I can’t say for sure but it sure does seem to point to that.

Please notice carefully that in each New Testament Verse here (earlier too) Christ First Says “… YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID …” regarding the related Old Testament Verse (or Law or Prophet’s Statement by their authority?).

So, what shocks most scholars that Christ does NOT Say that “… You have heard that I SAID IT EARLIER or that GOD SAID IT EARLIER…” but rather refrains from Explaining that part. I am not going to speculate here but just wanted to keep it in wonder till He Reveals it One Day:

“For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 8:17, NKJV)

This Idea of CHRIST Having ABSOLUTE POWER to CANCEL any JUDGMENT SENTENCE or even such OLD TESTAMENT JUDGMENT BIBLE VERSES is what may be echoed in the Mysterious ‘Apocalypse of Peter’ Book which was Scripture in the First Oldest Bible as discussed in link below:

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10158849943722784

I cannot say 100% anything but I see that truly God can Decide Anything either way as these “Bible Verses” itself Demonstrate Irrefutably.

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heart Felt – Heaven-felt Mystery regarding those who Love the Poor

Bible Verses Quoted Reveal this Mystery:

1) The Wicked

The Wicked have no such concern for the Poor and are ignored in Hell upon Death

“19“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day … 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.” – The Messiah, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 16:19, 22 – 25, NKJV)

“Whoever shuts his ears to the cry of the poor Will also cry himself and not be heard.” (Proverbs 21:13, NKJV)

The Greater the Wickedness in the Heart, the lesser of such a concern:

“The righteous considers the cause of the poor, But the wicked does not understand such knowledge.” (Proverbs 29:7, NKJV)

“20The tongue of the righteous is choice silver;
The heart of the wicked is worth little.
21The lips of the righteous feed many, …” (Proverbs 10:20 – 21, NKJV)

2) The Righteous

“Open your mouth, judge righteously, And plead the cause of the poor and needy.” (Proverbs 31:9, NKJV)

One of the Traits of the Righteous is being Kind to the Poor by giving them Food, Verses:

“16Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!” (Ezekiel 18:16 – 17, NKJV)

God only listens to a righteous who is generous to the poor, Verses:

“7Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; When you see the naked, that you cover him, And not hide yourself from your own flesh?
8Then your light shall break forth like the morning,
Your healing shall spring forth speedily,
And your righteousness shall go before you;
The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’.” (Isaiah 58:7 – 9, NKJV)

3) Testimony

i) Testimony of Blessed Patriarch Job

“14I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.
15I was eyes to the blind,
And I was feet to the lame.
16I was a father to the poor,
And I searched out the case that I did not know.
17I broke the fangs of the wicked,
And plucked the victim from his teeth.” – Blessed Patriarch Job (Job 29:14 – 17, NKJV)

ii) Testimony of Blessed Cornelius

“1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!. 4And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. … 34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:1 – 4, 34 – 35, NKJV)

iii) Testimony of Blessed Tobit

“7 Give generously to anyone who faithfully obeys God. If you are stingy in giving to the poor, God will be stingy in giving to you. 8 Give according to what you have. The more you have, the more you should give. Even if you have only a little, be sure to give something. 9 This is as good as money saved. You will have your reward in a time of trouble. 10-11 Taking care of the poor is the kind of offering that pleases God in heaven. Do this, and you will be kept safe from the dark world of the dead.” (Good News Translation, Tobit 4:7 – 11)

Source:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+4&version=GNT

iv) Testimony of Blessed Archangel Raphael

“7 It’s a good idea to keep a king’s secret, but what God does should be told everywhere, so that he may be praised and honored. If you do good, no harm will come to you.8 It is better to pray sincerely and to please God by helping the poor than to be rich and dishonest. It is better to give to the poor than to store up gold. 9 Such generosity will save you from death and will wash away all your sins. … 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him.” (Good News Translation, Tobit 12:7 – 9, 15)

Source:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+12&version=GNT

v) Testimony of the Blessed Apostles of Christ – It’s not the Gospel if it doesn’t remember the poor

“7But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10They DESIRED ONLY that we should REMEMBER the POOR, the very thing which I also was eager to do.” – Blessed St. Paul the Great Apostle of Christ (Galatians 2:7 – 10, NKJV)

vi) Mystery of the Heavenly Banquet of the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6) and the Poor

Possible special Mysterious Mercy toward the “poor”, “blind”, “maimed”, “crippled” (those meant literally, metaphorically, allegorically or both) to be Saved remains, “Bible Verses”:

“12Then He also said to him who invited Him, “When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. 13But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. 14And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” 15Now when one of those who sat at the table with Him heard these things, he said to Him, “Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!”. 16Then He [Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ] said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’ 18But they all with one accord began to make excuses. … 21So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ 22And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ 23Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’ ”.” (Luke 14:12 – 18, 21 – 24, NKJV)

Comment: Please notice ‘carefully’ that the same Biblical Koine Greek words describing the “… 13But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. …” (Luke 14:13) is also the ‘same disadvantaged ones’ (i. e. literally referring to those who are poor in poverty on earth with least money as well as those with physical disabilities to whom the righteous do charity works) who are also said to be saved to join in the “Wedding Feast” of the Most Blessed Lamb as Christ’s Parable referring to that Special Mercy toward them may be clearly seen in the phrase “… Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ 22And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ …” (Luke 14:21 – 22) in Consecutive Verses above.

Please take note also that the above are all Bible Verses “as it is Written” with no interpretation nor any interpolation of any kind.

Note: In Luke 16:19 – 31, Christ mentions of a beggar Lazarus, the example of a “poor” who is saved like this. Mysterious Indeed.

“… Blessed are you poor, For yours is the kingdom of God. 21Blessed are you who hunger now,
For you shall be filled. … 24“But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation.
25Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. …” – The KING of Heaven, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:20 – 21, 24 – 25, NKJV)

Conclusion – Second Resurrection (Revelation 20:11 – 15, John 5:27 – 28) a thousand years after the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6)

“37“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’.” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:37 – 40, NKJV)

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mercy on the Merciful Mystery – What to Do to Inherit Eternal Life?

 

Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ Himself answers:

 

“25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 28And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” 29But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” 37And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”.” (Luke 10:25 – 37, NKJV)

 

Comment: The “Samaritan” Christ used as an example may reflect the analogy of a “merciful non-Christian” because “Israelite/ wounded Jew” is the analogy of a “Christian” giving the ‘Hope for Good Non-Christians during the Second Resurrection Salvation theory based on the First Christianity Chiliasm doctrine to be Possible’ (a type of non-Elect Salvation). Even the Lawyer in this question whom Christ Spoke to did not believe in Him nor was invited so as opposed to the rich young ruler case, why? Possibilities are explained in post below (or discussed ‘next’ in this post):

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10159430305102784/

 

“Man has three friends on whose company he relies. First, wealth which goes with him only while good fortune lasts. Second, his relatives; they go only as far as the grave, leave him there. The third friend, his good deeds, go with him beyond the grave.” – The Talmud

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Non Elect Salvation Topic 15: Did Lord Jesus Christ Teach non-Elect Salvation?

 

Important Note: I’m not teaching this as an absolute doctrine. What I’m presenting here is that there is a possible hope for relatively good  non-Christian people to be Saved during the Second Resurrection based on the Millennial Reign or “Chiliasm” Doctrine of First Christianity which is already discussed in the ‘last chapter’ in the free downloadable e-book in link below:

 

0) Timeline based on Chiliasm Doctrine as I understand it

 

First Resurrection = Revelation 20:4 – 6, Matthew 25:1 – 13, the ‘hour now is’ on the Last Day in John 5:25, John 5:24, Luke 14:14

 

1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ = Matthew 25:14 – 30, Revelation 20:5, Isaiah 65:20, Luke 20:35 – 36

 

Second Resurrection = Matthew 25:31 – 46, Revelation 20:11 – 15, the ‘hour is coming’ on the Last Day in John 5:25, John 5:27 – 28, Daniel 12:2

 

More regarding this is discussed in links below:

 

  1. Lake of Fire Hope and the Resurrections Mystery

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159252192652784

 

  1. Lost Orthodoxy – First Christianity – Two Badges of Righteous via Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159309319317784

 

  1. First Resurrection – Few Saved and Special Mercy to the Poor Mystery

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159357218232784

 

 

  1. Justification by Faith – Whose Faith?

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159410072252784

 

  1. Is Hell Eternal?

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159410771327784

 

  1. First Christianity – ages of Ages Mystery

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159404509392784

 

  1. FAQ – Are Christian Universalists Heretics?

https://web.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10159377402047784&set=a.10152290889267784&type=3

 

1) The Parable of the Sower referring to the Christian Harvest – the Thirtyfold, Sixtyfold and Hundredfold

 

“18“Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 13:18 – 23, NKJV)

 

2) The Non-Elect Salvation of the ‘relatively good non-Christians’ refers to the Reaping where Christ has not Sown the Seed of the Gospel

“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:24, NKJV)

 

The above is not the opinion of that Servant but also that is affirmed by the Lord in that “He Reaps where He has not Sowed too” where Sowing refers to the “Sowing of the Gospel Seed” in Verse below:

 

“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.” (Matthew 25:26, NKJV)

 

“… Also, by this which this servant dared to say, “Thou reapest where thou sowedst not,” we understand that the Lord accepts the good life of the Gentiles and of the Philosophers. …” –  Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD)

 

Source [ Patristic Bible Commentary, Catena Aurea, Matthew 25:14 – 30, P. 853 ]:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/matthew-commentary/catena-aurea-on-matthew/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6/chapter-7/chapter-8/chapter-9/chapter-10/chapter-11/chapter-12/chapter-13/chapter-14/chapter-15/chapter-16/chapter-17/chapter-18/chapter-19/chapter-20/chapter-21/chapter-22/chapter-23/chapter-24/chapter-25

 

3) The Case of the Unlearnt

 

“5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are  treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” – Blessed St. Paul the Great Apostle of Christ to the Gentiles (Romans 2:5 – 16, NKJV)

 

Hope for the Unlearnt on Judgment Day  = “… 4for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. …” in Verses above. So, clearly having ‘not’ the Law of God or His Word, the ‘unlearnt’ must thus be Saved by “Christ’s Faith” or the “Faith of Jesus Christ” as these do not have the ‘faith in Christ’ as per Romans 3:22, right? [please see detailed discussion in post titled “Whose Faith?” in “4.” at the start]

 

and

“34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts of the Apostles 10:34 – 35, NKJV)

 

 

Yes, especially the non-Christian righteous who do a lot of Charity Works in Love:

“30So Cornelius said,  “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God.” (Acts of the Apostles 10:30 – 31, NKJV)

 

Please note carefully that Blessed Apostle St. Peter clearly notes that Cornelius (a non-Christian good at that time) has already been ‘accepted by God’ as there is no partiality with God (Acts 10:34 – 35, hence this could imply the General Salvation or ‘non-Elect Salvation toward Good non-Christians’) as St. Peter made this Statement even before he has begun to have Preached to Cornelius himself and even before Cornelius has believed in Christ. Indeed, Blessed Apostle St. Peter then continues further to Preach the Gospel to Cornelius to believe in Christ to  thereby Garner the Highest Elect-Salvation in Him (Acts 10:36 – 48).

 

4) Christ’s Words – Possible Exegesis since He Spoke Parabolically

 

“… 34All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,” 35“I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” …” (Matthew 13:34 – 35, NKJV, quoting Psalm 78:2)

 

Before that, let’s get to some background work first:

 

  1. Last Day definition

“37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day. 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 6:37 – 40, NKJV)

Possible Meaning of Phrases from the above:

 

i.a. “… I will raise him up at the Last Day …” = Resurrection = Soul (with Spirit) returning to the Body as this was First Christianity’s definition of the ‘Salvation of Man’ Meaning too to quote:

 

“… The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved. [1 Thessalonians 5:23] …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, ‘FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION’ CHAPTER X)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-resurrection.html

 

and

 

” … And Justin of Neapolis, a man who was not far separated from the apostles either in age or excellence, says that that which is mortal is inherited, but that which is immortal inherits; and that the flesh indeed dies, but the kingdom of heaven lives. …” — From METHODIUS On the Resurrection, in Photius. (Fragment V, St. Justin Martyr’s Lost Writings)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-fragments.html

 

Note: Justin of Neapolis = Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

 

i.b. “… 39This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day.  …” = Two Badges of Righteous Raised to Life on this Last Day one at the ‘hour now is’ whilst the other at the ‘hour is coming’ as John 5:25 mysteriously echoes (discussed next)

 

i.c. “… 40And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life …” = Until before the Last Day arrives there is possible ‘afterlife Salvation’ (first occurrence = 1 Peter 3:18 – 20, continuing occurrence =  1 Peter 4:5 – 6 literally quoted next) toward some where they get to believe in the Spirit World as the testimony of Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh has observed regarding certain ‘atheist & idolater’ even given this chance since they lived a life with an acceptable ‘moral compass Biblically’ as discussed in post below:

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159143902292784

 

This cannot refer to an Elect Salvation and hence must be a ‘non-Elect Salvation relating to relatively good non-Christians’.

 

“18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

Focus quotes:

 

“…  being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, …” = Christ Went to the Spirit World to Preach the Gospel to the ‘spirits in prison’ as only the ‘wicked/disobedient ones are in afterlife prisons’ while the righteous in blessed abodes (Luke 16:19 – 31)

 

“…20who formerly were disobedient …” = These ‘spirits in prison’ repented in the Spirit World (‘afterlife repentance’) as the phrase “formerly disobedient” clearly means.

 

“… when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah,  …” = These spirits in prison whom Christ Spoke to belonged to those who were ‘unsaved’ on earth prior who only got this ‘second chance’ after serving their ‘hell sentence’ in ‘prison’ accordingly first.

 

“4With respect to this, they think it strange of you not running with them into the same overflow of debauchery, speaking evil of you, 5who will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God.” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, Berean Literal Bible)

 

 

“…the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, …” = Gospel is Preached to the Dead (i.e. as per 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 prior) toward ‘some’ of the ‘current spirits in prison’

 

 

“…  they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh,  …” = They will be judged for their past deeds too

 

 

“… but they might live in the spirit according to God. …” = Some interpret that this means that the unrighteous only ‘get saved’ & live in the ‘spirit state’ where both their ‘body + soul’ = ‘their flesh’ is destroyed in the final Gehenna Fire (Matthew 10:28) as by ‘losing one’s soul’ (Matthew 16:26), as per Blessed St. Justin Martyr’s First Christianity definition such ones cannot experience the ‘earthly delights’ having not a body which could refer to their ‘eternal punishment’ (in Matthew 25:46).

 

In other words, these Bible Verses can also be interpreted to mean that the Wicked will not have a body nor a soul as this will be destroyed (Matthew 10:28, i.e. ‘the destruction of their flesh’ mentioned in 1 Peter 4:6) in their ‘Resurrection of Judgment’ (in John 5:27 – 28) meaning that these can only be ‘saved in their spirit state’ as 1 Peter 4:6 points if we take 1 Peter 4:5 to refer to the Judgment Day Context change. This idea of a spirit can exist without a body or a soul is implied by Christ Himself in Verse below:

 

“Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 24:39, NKJV)

 

The wicked never get to enter into the heavens simply because one can only do that with a “Body” which they ‘do not have’ having both ‘their body and soul’ being destroyed in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna (Matthew 10:28) as the Example of Christ Shows the opposite that with a “Body only” can one enter into the Heavens post-resurrection (in John 20:17, Acts 1:9 – 11).

 

Note: The ‘Eternal Punishment’ (if the word means eternal instead of age-during say in Matthew 25:46 or Daniel 12:2) has never referred to the ‘spirit’ but only the ‘destruction of the Body and Soul’ (Matthew 10:28) where ‘their spirit’ can still be ‘saved’ post this ‘destruction of their flesh on Judgment Day’ as 1 Peter 4:5 – 6 can mean too.

 

“deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5, NKJV)

 

*When Blessed St. Paul the Apostle wrote 1 Corinthians 5:5, he was writing in the context of an ‘unrepentant Christian sexually immoral person in a incestuous relationship’ who will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10, Galatians 5:19 – 21) meaning that Blessed St. Paul the apostle reveals his deep knowledge of this Mystery likewise that “his spirit” (referring to the ‘unsaved person’s spirit’) may be “saved” at a later time on the “Day of Lord Jesus” (possibly Judgment Day or post-Judgment Day).

 

The fact that this person may have repented later as the letter in 2 Corinthians 2:4 – 8 points that this person returns to the ‘Elect Salvation’ later once repented. Hence 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to a ‘non-Elect Salvation in the spirit state only for such wicked ones’. The phrase “destruction of the flesh” can refer to the ‘body + soul destroyed in Gehenna’ (Matthew 10:28) in the ‘Resurrection of Judgment’ (John 5:27 – 28) and “deliver such a one to Satan” can refer to the complete ruin of that unrepentant person being led the rest of his life in Satan’s Will toward that end judgment (Ephesians 2:2).

 

Alternately, this  “destruction of the flesh” under the definition that the ‘flesh = body + soul’ (the ‘two houses’ as per Blessed St. Justin Martyr’s definition) can also refer to ‘the body destroyed on earth’ while ‘the soul destroyed thereafter in the spirit world’ till the Last Day arrives and such a person in the ‘spirit state’ is ‘Saved’ on the ‘Day of Lord Jesus’ into a ‘non-Elect Salvation’ to ‘another place’ lower and ‘out of the Tower of Repentance’ (Christian Salvation) as per the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture.

 

Which is the meaning? or Can God give a body to the wicked or will He let them “live in their spirit” state in regions which is accessible to the ‘spirit only’ after they are Saved (1 Peter 4:6, possibly 1 Corinthians 5:5 too*)? Only God Alone knows.

 

  1. Two Resurrections to Life on this Last Day

 

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2, NKJV)

 

“25Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. … , 27and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. ” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:25, 27 – 28, NKJV)

 

Possible meaning in light of all this:

 

The words “day” and “hour” viewed parabolically means that since a “day” is split into various “hours” and we know that both resurrections occur in the same “Last Day”, thus

 

“the hour… now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” = First Resurrection to Life (‘the hour now is’ on the Last Day, a start hour Spoken of Parabolically on this Last Day?)

 

“the hour is coming,…  when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” = Second Resurrection to Life (‘the hour is coming’ on the Last Day, an ending hour Spoken of Parabolically on this Last Day? Revelation 20:5’s the ‘rest of the dead live not again until this 1000 years are finished’)

 

Please notice carefully that the phrase “hour is coming” is stated first in John 5:25 and repeated next in John 5:28 without the phrase “hour now is” (as in John 5:25) meaning that this refers to the ‘Second Resurrection only distinctly’ where the ‘Second Resurrection  has a badge of wicked & righteous raised simultaneously as per Daniel 12:2 too’ while the First Resurrection has only ‘a badge of righteous Resurrected’ (in Revelation 20:4 – 6) proving these to be distinct. The word “First Resurrection” (in Revelation 20:6) or the “Dead in Christ Rise First” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:16) regarding this Hope where the living is transformed together is a Hope available only to Christians (1 Thessalonians 4:13) as First Christianity’s Chiliasm Doctrine via Blessed St. Justin Martyr or Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons among many others have clearly taught.

 

To say that the words “hour now is” or “hour is coming” in John 5:25 have no distinction and refer only the First Resurrection or Christians only doesn’t make sense as He could have just said the “hour now is” part if this is the case. Since He said both the words “hour now is” or “hour is coming” referring to a ‘Resurrection to Life’ as per the phrase ‘those who hear will live’, it can refer to ‘Two Resurrections to Life’ as the Chiliasm interpretation along this lines agree. In other words, each of the phrases “hour now is” and “hour is coming” in John 5:25 must give a ‘unique meaning’.

I do not think that this refers to some Preterist view or equivalent where they think that this “hour now is” refers to Matthew 27:52 and that the First Resurrection Spoken of in Revelation 20:4 – 6 refers to this too as if that’s the case, then it has been more than 1000 years based on Revelation 20:5 and the Second Resurrection should have occurred where  these claim that ‘1000 years is only a figure of speech’. The Fact that ‘all Christians’ participate in this 1000 Years Millennial Reign which only occurs ‘after Christ has Returned and destroyed the Antichrist’ (Revelation 19 first) was believed by Blessed St. Justin Martyr and Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons who viewed these words literally likewise putting this View as impossible for me. The Fact that Matthew 27:52 and Revelation 20:4 – 6 are ‘not’ Speaking of the ‘Same Event’ may easily be seen by comparing these Verses as follows:

 

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4 – 6, NKJV)

 

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;” (Matthew 27:52, NKJV)

 

The Description of Revelation 20:4 – 6 and Matthew 27:52 looks entirely different too especially since the phrase “…  souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. …” (in Revelation 20:4) clearly proves that this occurs only ‘after’ the Antichrist’s Season but the other occurrence “… and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised …” (in Matthew 27:52) has occurred even before 70 AD, around 33 AD itself or even before the ‘Manifestation of Antichrist Nero or any other’ (1 John 2:18) proving distinctly that it is ‘impossible’ that these two Verses are referring to ths ‘Same Event’.

 

Please notice carefully that ‘all who did not receive the mark of the beast (antichrist)’ are said to Reign with Christ for a literal 1000 years post the First Resurrection in Revelation 20:4 – 6 and thus the current Roman Catholic view of it that this reign is happening now or that the ‘1000 years is just a figure of speech as St. Augustine proposed’ is clearly contradicting Holy Scripture especially since if that’s true, we are not part of this Millennial Reign. Also, which antichrist is St. Augustine referring to when Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself has warned that ‘Nero is not that Antichrist’ (because Nero already died before St. Irenaeous’ time) and though many may have their names sum of to 666, we cannot say for sure which one becomes that Final Antichrist till it happens (as St. Irenaeous explains in next even quoting false identification of previous antichrists), to quote:

 

“… 1. Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; …  But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. 2. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. This, too, the apostle affirms: “When they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them.” And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, “We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein.” This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved. … 3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (Euanqas) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (Lateinos) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (Teitan, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels e and i), among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit.  …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Hearer of St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, who is also an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Chapter XXX, Points 1 – 3, ‘Against Heresies’, Book V)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

iii. Unbelief and its Judgment

 

“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36, NKJV)

 

“45And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the Last Day.” (John 12:45 – 48, NKJV)

 

“1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” … 8For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His…. 11Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. …” (Hebrews 4:1 – 5, 8 – 11, NKJV)

 

The Last Day (John 6:37 – 40) or “Seventh Day” or “Rest for the People of God” (Hebrews 4:1 – 5, 8 – 10, 11) refers to the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 – 6) from which the “unbelievers” are to ‘endure the Wrath of God’ to be excluded from this [Resurrection to] life (John 3:36) as ‘Unbelief in Christ is only Judged as Exclusion from being Resurrected during His Millennial Reign during this period of 1000 years or the Last Day’ (as John 12:45 – 48) implies , to quote:

“… 4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as “he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,” as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” …”  – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Hearer of St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, who is also an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Chapter XXX, Points 4, ‘Against Heresies’, Book V)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

Conclusion – Bible Verses Only

 

i.) Unbelief

 

Based on this Exegesis,  the Punishment for Unbelief is possibly this:

 

“… and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. …” (John 3:36) = “…  I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the Last Day. …” (John 12:47 – 48) = “… 1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’ … 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day …  9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. … 11Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. …” (Hebrews 4:1 – 4, 9, 11) = “… 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years …” (Revelation 20:6) = “… 13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. … 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  …” (1 Thessalonians 4:13, 15 – 17, NKJV).

 

Note: All Verses above proving that the Punishment for Unbelief is Possibly Exclusion from that Seventh Day 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ which is the reward of faith for Christians only.

 

Christ Says He doesn’t Judge anyone who do not believe in Him in John 12:47 and immediately pronounces this Judgment Only for Unbelief in John 12:48 next, “… 48He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the Last Day.  …” (NKJV). Please note that the phrase “… the word that I have spoken will judge him in the Last Day …” clearly Speaks of their exclusion from this 1000 years Millennial Reign on this ‘Last Day’ or ‘Seventh Day’ making our exegesis consistent. In short He Says that His “Judgment” for ‘Unbelief’ is clearly pertaining to ‘His Words regarding the Last Day only in John 12:48’.

 

ii.) Non-Elect Salvation Hope for relatively Good non-Christians

 

No man is Saved by works and by Christ’s Faith only as explained in posts at the start of this write up. However, our works determine which order or time of Resurrection we participate in (1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23, 1 Timothy 2:6) as discussed in post below titled, “Atonement Mystery”:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159406661157784

 

I see it as follows:

 

Faith and Works merit the order of the First Resurrection for Christians while the non-Christian with  good works  may attain to a Second Resurrection to life on Judgment Day 1000 years later. Here’s why:

 

  1. Non-Elect Salvation of Eternal Life only – Works only

 

“28Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?” 29Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him.” (Mark 12:28 – 34, NKJV)

 

“18Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ” (Luke 18:18 – 19, NKJV)

 

“16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” (Matthew 19:16 – 18, NKJV)

 

“25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 28And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” 29But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among [i]thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, [j]when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” 37And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:25 – 37, NKJV)

 

Christ Own Words Prove that this Eternal Life Reward can be Given by “these Works” quoting from Verses above only:

 

  1. Saved in a nearby Region

 

“… “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” …” (Mark 12:34) = A person cannot go into the Kingdom of God Level of Inheritance without faith (Matthew 7:20 – 23) but can be Saved in a region near it.

 

  1. These works are enough for non-Elect Salvation

 

“…”18Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19So Jesus said to him,… 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ …  ” (Luke 18:18 – 19, NKJV)

 

iii. The Ruler particularly asked which ones, implying that not all 10 Commandments are required for this Type of Salvation but only these Commands are sufficient

 

” … “16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” … “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ …  ” (Matthew 19:16 – 18, NKJV)

  1. Showing Mercy can cause one to be Rewarded with Eternal Life too

 

“… “25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”… said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” …  37And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise. …” (Luke 10:25 – 37, NKJV)

 

Some Christians argue that the phrase “Love the LORD your God …” intrinsically implies that one has to believe in Lord Jesus Christ but the setting here is ‘Jewish’ where Christ is Speaking to an audience who have not yet accepted Him as their Messiah but believes in God as per the this Commandment without recognizing Him even. So, a Mercy is possible for a ‘General Belief in God’ as these Jews did err by not recognizing Him and notice carefully that Christ did not answer ‘to believe in Him’ to the direct question of “what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” set forth in these Verses (Context). This is Continued next.

 

Comment: A similar concept of ‘non-Elect Salvation’ with slightly different requirements (or more requirements) is found in Judaism as per link below called the “Noahide Laws” (but the Accurate one is of course, Christ’s List in these Bible Verses):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

 

 

 

 

 

 

  1. Elect Salvation of Eternal Life with “Thirty, Sixty or Hundredfold” Inheritance – Faith and Works

 

Verses first, continuing from the above:

 

“21And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 23But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich. 24And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” … 28Then Peter said, “See, we have left all and followed You.” 29So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.” (Luke 18:21 – 25, 28 – 29, NKJV)

 

“20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. 23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. … 27Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” 28So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last first. ” (Matthew 19:20 – 24, 27 – 30, NKJV)

 

Please notice ‘carefully’ that Christ only brings this Topic of ‘Eternal Life’ to a ‘Perfect Level’ next as Verses above demonstrate. Christ only invites the “Belief in Him part” by stating that He Lacks this ‘One thing’ (that works do not have) which is to “follow Me”.

 

In other words, Christ only invites this Rich Man beyond the ‘Eternal Life requirement of works’ (i.e. ‘being near His Kingdom’, Mark 12:34)  toward “perfection” which is by “Following Him” in which context only He Says that ‘it is hard for a rich man to enter His Kingdom’ (Luke 18:24).

This is to Say that the Commandments sufficient for Eternal Life are in Matthew 19:16 – 18 which may cause one to be ‘near the Kingdom’ type of inheritance (Mark 12:34 probably in the new earth as the meek inherit it, Matthew 5:5) as part of ‘them inheriting His Kingdom in these outside regions’ (Matthew 25:31 – 46) while to attain to Perfection of that Eternal Life in ‘inheriting or Entering the Kingdom of God’ (i.e. the “heavens-hundredfold”, “paradise-sixtyfold”, “new Jerusalem city-thirtyfold”, as First Christianity has expounded as discussed in earlier posts – Matthew 13:8, Matthew 7:20 – 23 of that First Resurrection, Revelation 20:4 – 6) one has to both have “faith in Christ and sufficient works/oil” (James 2:24, Matthew 25:1 – 13) in order to attain to this.

 

Please note that Christ Mentions that “Perfect Christians” (Matthew 19:21) regarding those who Practiced Perfect Renunciation (Luke 14:33, Matthew 19:27 – 28) attain to both the “Hundredfold” Inheritance and “Eternal Life”, inheriting both in Matthew 19:29 (please notice carefully). This implies with Matthew 13:8 that as Christians fall short of this Perfection, we may attain to either a “thirtyfold + eternal life” or “sixtyfold + eternal life” inheritance in His Kingdom accordingly as First Christianity has taught.

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Non Elect Salvation Topic 17: Eternal Life and His Commandments Mystery

 

1) The Two Greatest Commandments

 

“28Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?” 29Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him.” (Mark 12:28 – 34, NKJV)

Facts from Verses above:

 

  1. The Two Greatest Commandments are to “Love God” and “Love your neighbour as yourself”.
  2. Whoever practices these two Commands, Christ Himself Says that “they are not far from the kingdom of God.”

 

2) What to do to inherit “Eternal Life”?

 

“25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 28And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” 29But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” 37And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” (Luke 10:25 – 37, NKJV)

 

Facts from these Verses:

i) Christ Himself approved the answer to the question “what to do to inherit Eternal Life?” as “Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself” as Christ Affirmed it as “…You have answered rightly; do this and you will live …” in Verses above. So we can Preach reply likewise too.

 

  1. ii) How to practice the “Love your neighbour part”? to “show Mercy” likewise as per the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

 

Conclusion

 

  1. Did you notice that both these passages (or dialogue of Christ with the questioners) has only the Two Greatest Commands, namely “Love God and Love your neighbour” mentioned?
  2. This means that “Love God and Love your neighbour” Commands tie these two passages to refer to the same Context.

 

  1. So the “Love God and Love your neighbour” Commands causes one to “inherit Eternal Life” and “be not far from the Kingdom of God”.

 

  1. Sufficiency of these Two Commands only for Eternal Life: Christ did not mention anything else and even affirms its sufficiency by Saying, “ … You have answered rightly; do this and you will live …”.

 

  1. Does the “Love God” Command entail the ‘believing in Him’ part?

 

“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:28, NKJV)

 

If the “Love God” Command entails the ‘believing in Him’ part intrinsically, then together with the “love your neighbour as yourself” Command should imply that such a person is already ‘entering the Kingdom of God’ (as per His Response in Matthew 19:23 – 24, 27 – 30) or that ‘the Kingdom of God has come upon you’ response (as per Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20) or that such a person is to ‘go into the kingdom of God’ response (Matthew 21:31) in the Context of ‘Doing the Will of the Father’ for ‘Entering His Kingdom’ (Matthew 7:21) which includes ‘believing in Him’ (John 6:29) and also to be ‘born of Water and of Spirit’ (John 3:5).

 

31Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you32For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.” (Matthew 21:31 – 32, NKJV)

 

However in Mark 12:28 – 34 Christ only Said that “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” toward the person who “Loved God and loved his neighbour as himself” as Christ Responded that only “when Jesus saw that he answered wisely”.

 

In other words, saying that “you are not far from the Kingdom of God” means that such a person has ‘not’ experienced the ‘Kingdom of God upon him’ (in contrast to believers in Christ, Matthew 12:28) but neither is he in a ‘danger of hell damnation place’ as Christ places such a person “outside” the “Kingdom of God” but “near it”.

 

Thus if the “Love God” Command part  has already included the ‘believe in Christ part intrinsically’, Christ would have replied that such a person has already gotten a place in the ‘Kingdom of God’ instead of ‘near the Kingdom of God’ which He did not do in these Verses.

 

This is further strengthened in the Bible as only Luke 18:21 – 29 and Matthew 19:20 – 30 does Christ begin to Speak about ‘Entering His Kingdom’ aspect which even the rich young ruler in those passages “lacked” or was “incomplete or not perfect” (Luke 18:24 – 25, Matthew 19:23 – 24)  as Christ only invited him to ‘follow Me’ or ‘believe in Him’ (implied intrinsically as one cannot ‘follow Him’ without ‘believing in Him’ first) as part of being “Perfect” (Luke 18:22, Matthew 19:21).  As Blessed Apostle St. Peter affirmed ‘himself following Christ’ (Matthew 19:27, Luke 18:28), to that Christ Responded not just ‘Eternal Life’ but also a “Hundredfold” Inheritance (Matthew 19:29) which he promises not just for apostles but for anyone who has left houses, mother, father, wife etc. for His Kingdom’s sake. We understand that if anyone should fall short of this ‘perfect faith’, some Christians could still attain to a “thirty fold fruit” or “sixty fold fruit” of inheritance accordingly in His Kingdom (Matthew 13:8) as First Christianity has taught as discussed in previous posts.

In other words, the rich young ruler has kept enough of the Commandments to ‘inherit Eternal Life’ (Matthew 19:16 – 20, Luke 18:18 – 21) but still “lacked one thing” or was “imperfect” in the Context of ‘following Christ/believing in Christ’ + ‘sharing his possessions with the poor’ (Matthew 19:20 – 21, Luke 18:22) which is what is required for anyone who wishes for the ‘Perfect Salvation of “entering” the Kingdom of God’ (Matthew 19:23 – 24, Luke 18:24 – 25) as opposed to ‘not just being Saved near / outside the Kingdom of God type of Eternal Life’ (Mark 12:28 – 34, Matthew 19:25 – 26, Luke 18:26 – 27 with Luke 10:25 – 37) where this Perfect Salvation belongs to a “Hundredfold” fruit not just for apostles but for anyone else willing to leave something significant for His Kingdom (Matthew 19:27 – 30, Luke 18:28 – 30).

 

 

 

  1. Please re-read Luke 10:25 – 37 and see that in the Answer to the Question “what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life”, in that entire passage Christ did not even ask that person to believe in Him but only to “Love God and love your neighbour”. That Lawyer was not a believer in Christ because the Bible clearly states that his intention was to “test Christ” and later even “wanted to justify himself” to Christ by asking, “who is my neighbour?”. So, that Lawyer’s response to “Love God” meant according to ‘his own personal interpretation’ as Christ Asked first “what’s your reading of the Law and how you understand it?” [please look for each of these phrases or equivalent in these set of Verses to understand this accuracy].

 

In other words, this self justifying Lawyer who was testing Christ when he asked the question ‘what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life?’ in Luke 10:25 – 37 did not get invited by Christ to ‘follow Me’ probably because being of his ‘self justifying intention or his testing God intentions’   which makes him unworthy of the Elect Salvation but to whom Christ only offered possibly a non-Elect Salvation by him practicing ‘Love God and love your neighbour’ Commands as ‘he understood it’ as Christ did Remark first “what’s your reading (exegesis/interpretation) of it?” knowing of that ‘Lawyer’s imperfections beforehand’ but did not exclude him from this non-Elect Eternal Life Salvation by Stating, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live”.

 

We know that this could refer to the non-Elect Salvation Order/Timing Type since these ‘same two commands’ were discussed in Mark 12:28 – 34 which only merits an ‘Eternal Life near/not far from the Kingdom of God’ [probably in the ‘outside’ regions of the New Earth area outside of the ‘New Jerusalem City which possibly connects to Paradise & the Heavens] as opposed to the ‘Enter the Kingdom of God Type’ which is only for Christians (Matthew 7:20 – 23) who have both “faith and works” (Revelation 14:12, James 2:24, Matthew 25:1 – 13) of whom those of the “thirtyfold fruit inherit a place in this New Jerusalem City”, while those of the “Sixtyfold fruit type inherit a place in Paradise” while those of the “Hundredfold fruit type inherit a place in the Heavens” as First Christianity’s finest such as Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons or even St. Papias of Hierapolis have expounded where in the Gospel only the Perfect “Hundredfold type + Eternal Life” is mentioned in Matthew 19:29 clearly as the ‘Perfect Inheritance Level’.

 

Please also Compare with the “Law abiding fine example of the Rich Young Ruler” who kept all these 10 Commandments from his youth (in Matthew 19:16 – 18, Luke 18:18 – 19)  who certainly kept even the “Love God” Command from his youth of which it was not mentioned that he lacked (Matthew 19:20, Luke 18:21).

However, Christ did not consider his keeping of the “Love God” command as part of his keeping of the Torah as equivalent to ‘believing in Him’ and that’s why Christ pointed out that the “follow Me/follow Christ” part is still lacking of him (Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22) though he kept the “Torah Commands and/or the 10 Commandments” from his youth itself (Matthew 19:20, Luke 18:21).

In other words, if Christ implied an intrinsic understanding that to “Love God” Command includes to ‘believe in Him’ (as some claim), then the rich young ruler who kept all these Commands from his youth itself (as per Matthew 19:20, Luke 18:21) would not have lacked or fall short the perfection marked out as ‘missing’ by Christ Himself next, one of which included this ‘Belief/Faith in Christ part’ as per the phrase “follow Me” includes this Meaning (as recorded clearly as referring/highlighting this distinction in Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22). Perhaps God is Merciful toward the non-Elect Salvation where He doesn’t require a perfect acknowledgement of him as these two cases of the rich young ruler and the lawyer both of whom clearly did not believe in Him yet/ever but were offered a ‘non-Elect Salvation Order’ by keeping these specific commandments only as it was discussed more in the previous Essay titled “Non Elect Salvation Topic 16: Did Lord Jesus Christ Teach non-Elect Salvation?” on page 1332 too.

I am presenting this view in detail not to claim that this is the truth but as I understand these possibilities are available within these Scriptures as demonstrated. Only God knows which is the Perfect Truth and probably he has allowed us to see it dimly so that we don’t easily judge others who differ in interpreting these Verses too as the Doctrine of Predestination goes, those who believe in Christ Will believe in Him regardless if this is true or not as Blessed St. Gregory the Theologian has said that speculating regarding these things such as “Judgment” is not dangerous at all but to hit the right point may have its reward too. Only God Alone knows perfectly and it’s okay not to know or know dimly (1 Corinthians 13:12, 1 Corinthians 4:5).

 

 

May God Forgive us for our Errors, to Him Alone be the Glory Always. Amen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Non Elect Salvation Topic 18: Shepherd of Hermas Explains 1 Peter 4:5 – 6

 

1 Peter 3:18 – 20 (First Occurrence by Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ when He Died & went in ‘His Spirit State’ into the Spirit World to Peach the Gospel there).

 

1 Peter 4:5 – 6 (Peter clearly mentions the “they” or “the dead” to whom the Gospel is Preached to refers to ‘those who Speak evil of you, at that present time when he was writing the Epistle’ and not the ‘Noah’s time dead’ as he says that ‘these must give account to Him who is Ready to judge the living and the dead’) as Peter expounds the ‘Gospel was Preached’ to ‘the dead’ likewise – proving this as an on-going occurence as even the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture clearly testifies regarding the ‘rejected stones from the Tower of Repentance / Elect Salvation Hope’ to be placed in ‘another place post-afterlife Judgments if they repent during that / a non-Elect Salvation Hope as these never get placed in the Elect’s Tower of Repentance or Christian Church Salvation Inheritance portion’ [Fact 1].

 

 

Also, the Shepherd of Hermas records a Gospel Preaching to the Dead by the ‘forty stones’ (referring to the Apostles, including Peter so it occurs after the time of this epistle of Peter even + some Christian Bible Teachers of First Christianity) who descended into Hades ‘to Preach the Gospel’ in the Spirit World toward certain righteous Gentiles who were dead (or ‘fallen asleep’) in a later time ‘after’ the Epistle of Peter was written [Fact 2].

 

 

Your rejection of the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture doesn’t disprove anything but only proves your unbelief where one day we will see that it’s true.

 

  1. Fact 1

 

“… Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? These are they who have heard the word, and wish to be baptized in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and again walk after their own wicked desires.” She finished her exposition of the tower. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

So,

 

“…These are they who have heard the word, and wish to be baptized in the name of the Lord …” = Non-Christians who Heard the Gospel but never got Baptized though they may have wished to because,

 

“…but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and again walk after their own wicked desires. …” = They did not want to Believe and Practice Christianity because the Demands of Its Purity is too High and that they don’t want to abandon their past ways, i.e. they died unrepentant on earth. Can you see that the Hope of the Spirit World Salvation also includes them as part of “all these rejected stones”?

 

The Hope Part:

 

“… She finished her exposition of the tower. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “Is repentance possible for all those stones which have been cast away and did not fit into the building of the tower, and will they yet have a place in this tower?” “Repentance,” said she, “is yet possible, but in this tower they cannot find a suitable place. But in another and much inferior place they will be laid, and that, too, only when they have been tortured and completed the days of their sins. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have partaken of the righteous Word. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the thought of repenting of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

This Shepherd of Hermas Scripture regarding some non-Christians (the unbaptized & those who heard the Gospel on earth but did not believe in it) can be Saved in the Spirit World if God Wills as Described above but may be accelerated by our Propitiatory Prayers on behalf of them as the Bible Verses in 2 Maccabees 12:42 – 46 imply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  1. Fact 2

 

How can such be Saved in the afterlife if they are not Baptized?

 

To quote from the ‘Scripture’ of the ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ that those being Saved in the Spirit World have Some type of ‘Water Baptism’ (either Symbolically or Allegorically) as Mysteriously put in Verse below toward ‘relatively good non-Christians who are dead’:

 

“15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. 15[92]:6 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive.” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

Here’s a ‘Fuller Explanation’ of that event or Context if you doubt that it refers to the ‘Spirit World Preaching of the Gospel’ and these ones getting ‘saved’ there, to quote:

 

“… 15[92]:4 “But the stones, Sir,” say I, “that came from the deep, and were fitted into the building, who are they?” “The first,” saith he, “even the ten, that were placed in the foundations, are the first generation; the twenty-five are the second generation of righteous men; the thirty-five are God’s prophets and His ministers; the forty are apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.” 15[92]:5 “Wherefore then, Sir,” say I, “did the virgins give in these stones also for the building of the tower and carry them through the gate?” 15[92]:6 “Because these first,” saith he, “bore these spirits, and they never separated the one from the other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits abode with them till they fell asleep; and if they had not had these spirits with them, they would not have been found useful for the building of this tower.” 15[92]:1 “Show me still further, Sir,” say I. “What desirest thou to know besides?” saith he. “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the stones come up from the deep, and wherefore were they placed into the building, though they bore these spirits?” 15[92]:2 “It was necessary for them,” saith he, “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life. 15[92]:3 So these likewise that had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. For before a man,” saith he, “has borne the name of [the Son of] God, he is dead; but when he has received the seal, he layeth aside his deadness, and resumeth life. 15[92]:4 The seal then is the water: so they go down into the water dead, and they come up alive. “thus to them also this seal was preached, and they availed themselves of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.” 15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. 15[92]:6 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive. 15[92]:7 So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. For this cause also they came up with them, and were fitted with them into the building of the tower and were builded with them, without being shaped; for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal. Thou hast then the interpretation of these things also.” “I have, Sir,” say I. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

  1. Fact 3

 

An Important Note: Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens is discussed further with proof quotes in link below:

 

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/christ-centered-universalism-mystery-in-first-christianity/amp

 

 

In short, the Shepherd of Hermas quotes will prove true than the interpretations of any of your scholars or yourself. One day you will see and lose the extra blessedness / reward in His Kingdom that comes with those who keep with it. Your unbelief is your loss, not mine nor First Christianity’s to bear.

 

 

I believe that the Shepherd of Hermas is a clear fulfillment of Acts 2:17 as did the Finest in Christianity after the apostles as declared above:

 

“‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.” (Acts 2:17, NKJV)

 

In the Context of ‘Afterlife Hope’ regarding ‘those banished from life in the Spirit World upon Death’ (implied), this is what the Bible Mysteriously Echoes:

 

“For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.” (2 Samuel 14:14, NKJV)

 

“For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him.” (2 Samuel 14:14, NASB)

 

“We will certainly die and be like water poured out on the ground, which can’t be recovered. But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” (2 Samuel 14:14, HCSB)

 

God never Changes.

 

If all these “Elect Saints of God” believed in the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture, we ought to as well.

 

The Various Approval of the Shepherd of Hermas in First Christianity and Beyond is discussed in detail at the end of the write up in link below:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159121203392784&id=651792783

These First Christianity Approval of the Shepherd of Hermas Visions is discussed in Pages 928 – 930 or ‘why is it not in the Bible?’ is discussed in Pages 807 and 808 in this book.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1u0sHx5BDjKNGTRP7UImpAQ4Xka9LXcIR

 

Yes, the Shepherd of Hermas is a Gift for All the Elect

 

“… and asked me, if I had yet given the book to the presbyters. And I said that I had not. And then she said, “You have done well for I have some words to add. But when I finish all the words, ALL the ELECT will then become acquainted with them through you. You will write therefore two books, and you will send the one to Clemens and the other to Grapte. And Clemens will send his to foreign countries, for permission has been granted to him to do so. And Grapte will admonish the widows and the orphans. But you will read the words in this city, along with the presbyters who preside over the Church. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2, Chapter IV)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

Or in another translation:

 

“… . I said that I had not given it. “Thou hast done well,” she said, “for I have words to add. When then I shall have finished all the words, it shall be made known by thy means to ALL the ELECT. 4[8]:3 Thou shalt therefore write two little books, and shalt send one to Clement, and one to Grapte. So Clement shall send to the foreign cities, for this is his duty; while Grapte shall instruct the widows and the orphans. But thou shalt read (the book) to this city along with the elders that preside over the Church. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

Conclusion

Please note the phrase “ALL the ELECT” carefully in the quote above across two translations. Hence I implore thee: please don’t take this “Shepherd of Hermas Scripture” in First Christianity lightly and please read it in links above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

#ShepherdofHermas

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Justification by Faith – Whose Faith?

 

It’s only Written “Faith of Jesus Christ” in those Verses (Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:19-KJV) even overcoming unbelief too as the “Faith of God” Alone can Do (Romans 3:3 – 4 – KJV).

 

Note: Romans 3:3 – 4, KJV, Romans 11:26 – 32 cannot refer to the Elect Salvation but the non-Elect Salvation of those in “unbelief” or “disobedient”, Romans 11:32 referring to the enemies of the Gospel, Romans 11:28 -29 —> please read these Verses carefully ‘as it is Written’ – the “same Israelite enemies of the Gospel” are called “Beloved by Election”, Romans 11:28 to be Saved as ‘All Israel, physical Israel’ later post Judgment, Romans 11:25 – 26. Romans 9:6 speak of the Elect Israel who believe in Christ but Romans 11:1 onward there is a context change toward “the castaway ones of physical Israel”, the “spiritually blinded of physical Israel” (Romans 11:7 – 10), whose fall is not eternal but a restoration is promised toward them being reconciled and getting life from the dead (Romans 11:11 – 15) and that’s the ‘physical All Israel’ told to be Saved as a ‘Mystery or Secret’ (Romans 11:25 – 26) which cannot be revoked even toward the enemies of the Gospel (Romans 11:28 – 29) where even their “unbelief” (KJV) and “disobedience” (NASB) cannot Stop them from experiencing God’s Mercy eventually (Romans 11:30 – 32) Post afterlife Judgment toward such ones first (Romans 11:21 – 22, Romans 11:7- 10).

 

The “enemies of the Gospel” being Elected to Salvation as beloved (Romans 11:28 – 29) eventually (Romans 11:25 – 26) cannot refer to the Elect Salvation (Romans 9:6), hence it may be stated as the “non-Elect Salvation”.

 

We believe in His Faith as Christ Demonstrated His Faith as Leadership by Example. In the same Way it’s “His Righteousness is Imputed to us” by “His Faith of Jesus Christ” in Romans 3:22 (both His).

 

It’s absurd that your faith in Christ can impute God’s Righteousness. That’s Blasphemy as it implies your personal action causes you to be saved.

 

Only the Faith of Jesus Christ imputes God’s Righteousness for one to be Saved (All His Work Alone) as it is Perfectly Written in Romans 3:22,

 

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:” (Romans 3:22, KJV)

 

 

 

Conclusion

You are so confused you think your faith imputes the righteousness of God which is blasphemy against Romans 3:22.

“Your faith” can impute “your righteousness only” which decides whether you participate in the First Resurrection or not (Ezekiel 14:14, Matthew 5:20, Revelation 20:4 – 6) as per “Doing God’s Will” (Matthew 7:20 – 23) in “believing, i. e your faith in Christ” (John 6:29) and in “your works” (James 2:24, Matthew 5:20) determining that you escape afterlife Judgment (John 5:24) and your reward level in the heavens (Matthew 5:19). Please note that “your righteousness” exists distinctly as Christ Himself defined this less understood factor in protestant theology in Matthew 5:20. Please read each quoted Verses carefully.

 

“Christ’s Faith” or the “Faith of God” can even overcome “unbelief” (Romans 3:3 – 4) till they are shown Mercy too eventually as the example of non-Elect Salvation for the Enemies of the Gospel among Israelites shows (in Romans 11:26 – 32) as discussed prior. Yes, “Christ’s Faith Alone” imputes “the righteousness of God” (Romans 3:22 – 24) toward “all men” or “the many” made sinners by Adam to be Saved eventually (Romans 5:18 – 19) under the Biblical Equation: [ ‘All men = Adam + ‘the many’ made sinners due to Adam (rest of mankind), 1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23 too as explained in previous posts with early Church leaders quotes likewise].

 

“21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Romans 3:21 – 26, KJV)

Note: The “all” Justified by the “Faith of Jesus Christ” (Romans 3:22) eventually refers to the “same all who have sinned” (which includes ‘all mankind’, as Romans 11:23 – 24) clearly implies this Context ‘as it is Written’ where ‘among those who believe there is no difference’ (Romans 3:22) because they equally do not experience any afterlife Judgment (John 5:24) where God is putting Forth “Christians” as a Demonstration of this in the “present time” (Romans 3:26).

 

Yes, all men may be Saved eventually (1 Timothy 2:4 KJV) but believers are more special (1 Timothy 4:10) as His Propitiation includes even the Ending of Wrath post-Judgment too which is not only toward us (Christians) but also to the whole world (1 John 2:2). Christians are more special because the glory He gives us will be incomparable as “firstfuits”:

“Of His Own Will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His Creatures.” (James 1:18, KJV)

 

More regarding the Faith of Jesus Christ Accuracy is described in link below:

 

1) Faith of Jesus Christ Alone Saves us – Lost Mystery

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159378315502784

 

2) Finer Points in Theology – Faith of Jesus Christ causes both the Elect Salvation and the Non-Elect Salvation

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159382648517784

 

3) Faith of Jesus Christ – Accuracy

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159404979592784

 

4) Atonement Mystery

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159406661157784

 

Why is accuracy important?

 

‘ … Lesser the accuracy, lesser the glory given to God as we ascribe to ourselves some part of it such as idolizing ‘one’s personal faith’…’

 

Antidote: If you believe in “Christ’s Faith” as Scripture demonstrates clearly, you Realize that there is a Faith above ours which is the “Perfect Faith of Jesus Christ” and that slays any ‘possible self pride due to ‘my faith’ from existing’. Christ’s Leadership is by Example because He Fulfills all Law of God (Matthew 5:17 – 20) including this “Faith” aspect too because if God gave Laws but He didn’t have to Fulfill it, it’s not Fair either right? That’s why His Leadership in All Righteousness is Demonstrated by Christ Alone who gets the Perfect Score in Everything as the Verse below Mysteriously echoes:

“He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have FIRST PLACE in EVERYTHING.” (Colossians 1:18, NASB)

 

 

P/S: How many books are there in the Bible Canon actually?

 

Claim

Martin Luther is used by God Single-handedly to remove 7 books from the Bible Canon during his lifetime.

Reply

 

Martin Luther denied the Book of Revelation as Scripture. Hence is judgment of which is Scripture by removing 7 books is invalid. In fact, Martin Luther only believes in 65 books in the Bible and you are following him each time you quote they’re 66 books and not 73 books. First Christianity is most reliable.

Martin Luther decided 66, opps 65 books only (rejecting the Book of Revelation as Scripture which even questions his salvation as an Elect of God based on Revelation 22:19). You are following exactly where he made his mistake which is he incapable of determining which Book is Scripture or not as his decision on the Book of Revelation shows. There are 73 books or more in the Bible. You have not proved the removal is from God.  If Martin Luther behaves and preaches like he did as recorded in Church history by his protestant followers himself (as demonstrated in links below), would accept him as your Church Pastor? This is a relevant question because he removed 7 books from the Bible and did not accept the Book of Revelation as Holy Scripture – so based on what credence did can we believe his decision is by God and not one of his errors as shown in links below in detail (hey, getting one part right which is not having Virgin Mary as a co-mexeatrix is insufficient proof of his other doctrines/decisions). In fact, it’s within context that a man who doesn’t even recognize existing Scripture as true, i. e. Denying the Canonicity of the Book of Revelation has proven himself incapable of deciding whether other books are Scripture or not. Also, there is nothing wrong in pointing out Martin Luther’s errors as he pointed out where the Pope of his time was wrong too, so that’s still a Biblical Attitude as Martin Luther himself demonstrated it in his life.

 

Posts:  https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159399659322784

and

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159399771867784

An Important Comment: These 7 books were not added, they were “removed”. The removal needs explanation. If it was “Added”, then I will do the explanation. If you’re going to start from Church History by quoting someone who didn’t accept it earlier, there you’re guilty of quoting early Christianity too while I’m quoting the “Majority” (which accepted these 7 Books as Scripture) and even the “First Canon” or Muratorian Canon which is sufficient for all my beliefs. Your generation cannot rewrite the Bible which is a BIG MISTAKE by choosing the Books you like and rejecting others by personal opinions as Doctrinal Implications differ as I have quoted & shown in earlier posts.

 

Example of Doctrinal Differences: Afterlife Salvation in the Shepherd of Hermas or Salvation from the lake of Fire in the Apocalypse of Peter. You haven’t answered the question: Why did you believe in the removal of 7 books from the Bible?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please read the Comment in Image too as at least I follow the First Bibles called the Murtorian Canon or Roman Canon in the West or Codex Claromontanus in the East which proves all the Doctrine I have asserted in my posts; If I’m wrong I cannot be held accountable for following the “Earliest Known Bible List” as following the rest has risks of ‘the Warning in image’ where if you’re right, you may be excused and otherwise as God can have Mercy on whom He Wills:

 

 

 

How about Hell being eternal based on Revelation 20:10 or Matthew 25:46? You’re arguing from translations and not the Original Hebrew/Greek Words in the “Original Bible”. Please allow me to demonstrate ‘your same word, same duration argument as St. Augustine in the Eternal Hell camp proposed but missed this’, hence Hell may not be Eternal if God ‘cancels it’:

That’s Proven in the First Bible of Christianity and Greek language speaks of ages. You’re arguing from a “forever” translation (a Translation is not inspired a even the Mosaic Levitical Priesthood was said to be forever in Numbers 25:13 or Exodus 40:15 but it turned out to the age/aeon only or that forever priesthood by that same Hebrew word “Olam” is “cancelled” as per where it is said to “vanish” eventually in Hebrews 8:13 , and this is the same word in Daniel 12:2 regarding Final Judgment of “age-during punsihment or shame” and thus ‘not everlasting punishment’ as you claim either – all Biblically Proven with the ‘same Hebrew Word Olam or its Koine Greek Equivalent Aeon or in English, “age” in Matthew 25:46 too).

So, God can cancel Forever Sentences and denying that is Denying His Power as Scripture has Demonstrated even a ‘Cancellation of not just that Everlasting Levitical Priesthood’ but also the ‘Entire Old Covenant eventually till it disappers / Vanishes / Ceases to Exist’ (Hebrews 13:8) as God can Change His Law when a Change in Judgment (e.g. being conditional to repentance as the Book of Enoch has Postulated regarding this Lake of Fire/Gehenna Sentence) as per His Principle in Hebrews 7:11 – 12 too. Bible Verses quoted here:

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting [Olam] contempt.” (Daniel 12:2, NKJV)

“And these will go away into everlasting [Olam] punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46, NKJV)

“You shall anoint them, as you anointed their father, that they may minister to Me as priests; for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting [Olam] priesthood throughout their generations.” (Exodus 40:15, NKJV)

 

“and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting [Olam] priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.’ ”” (Numbers 25:13, NKJV)

Even these ‘Ritualistic Acts’ are to be Performed ‘forever [Olam, age-during]’:

“Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting [Olam] covenant.” (Leviticus 24:8, NKJV)

 

“ 16And those redeemed of the devoted things you shall redeem when one month old, according to your valuation, for five shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs. 17But the firstborn of a cow, the firstborn of a sheep, or the firstborn of a goat you shall not redeem; they are holy. You shall sprinkle their blood on the altar, and burn their fat as an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the Lord. 18And their flesh shall be yours, just as the wave breast and the right thigh are yours. 19“All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer to the Lord, I have given to you and your sons and daughters with you as an ordinance forever [Olam]; it is a covenant of salt forever [Olam] before the Lord with you and your descendants with you.” (Numbers 18:16 – 19, NKJV)

That “Everlasting [Olam] Covenant” has been ‘Cancelled by God’ till it ‘Vanishes away’, Verses:

 

14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? … 17“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor19For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.” (Galatians 2:14, 17 – 19, NKJV)

 

Special Example: The “Law of Moses” (Torah)

i. The Law of Moses is Eternal [Olam] Verses

“All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal [Olam].” (Psalm 119:160, NIV)

151You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth. 152Concerning Your testimonies, I have known of old that You have founded them forever [Olam].” (Psalm 119:151 – 152, NKJV)

160The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments  endures  forever [Olam].” (Psalm 119:160, NKJV)

  1. The Law of Moses is NOT Eternal [Olam] Verses because God has ‘Cancelled’ it later

Circumcison Law ‘Cancelled’ by God:

2Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is [a debtor to keep the whole law. 4You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.” (Galatians 5:2 – 6, NKJV)

Other Eternal [Olam] Law of Moses parts ‘Cancelled’ by God too:

1And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” …  5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” … 24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— …  28For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.” (Acts 15:1, 5, 24, 28 – 29, NKJV)

Note: A lot of Practices from the “Everlasting [Olam]” Law of Moses is ‘Cancelled’ according to God’s Decision which seemed “Good” to “His Holy Sprit”.

11Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.” (Hebrews 7:11 – 12, NKJV)

 

 

iii. The Old Covenant is everlasting [Olam]

7The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure. 8They stand fast forever [Olam] and ever [La’ad], And are done in truth and uprightness. 9He has sent redemption to His people; He has commanded His covenant forever [Olam]: Holy and awesome is His name.” (Psalm 111:7 – 9, NKJV)

15Remember His covenant forever [Olam], The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, 16The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac,
17And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel for an everlasting [Olam] covenant,” (1 Chronicles 16:15 – 17, NKJV)

 

 

  1. The Old Covenant is everlasting [Olam] is ‘Cancelled’ and will Vanish away eventually

13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” (Hebrews 8:13, NKJV)

Yes all “former things” including the “Old Covenant” of the Law of Moses will pass away  as after it has served its Purposes, God ‘cancels’ it:

“And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:4, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

A Note on Revelation 22:19, please consider:

“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:19, KJV)

 

Comment: I do not think that the phrase “… take away from the words of the book of this prophecy …” includes the context of having ‘wrong Book of Revelation interpretations’ (be it Eternal Hell or Universalism or Annihilation or Preterism) for if it were so, there are surely going to be ‘very few saved’ as for the rest, “…God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. …” is going to happen if that’s the case. Why do I say so? Here’s an example based on First Christianity Tradition/Doctrine regarding the Book of Revelation’s Millennial Reign Doctrine (based on Revelation 20:4 – 6), to quote:

“… And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold [Matthew 13:1 – 8, Matthew 13:18 – 23]: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” … And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature;  …  For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter Chapter XXXVI, Points 1 – 2, 3-partial)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

and

 

“… As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions:” …” – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html

 

So if God is going to Judge Revelation 22:19’s removal from the “Book of Life” based even on “Wrong Interpretations” on the “Book of Revelation”, then how many Christians believe in the following “Doctrine” based on Revelation 20:4 – 6 & Matthew 13:8 or Matthew 13:23 as demonstrated by both Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons and Blessed St. Papias of Hierapolis likewise:

Hundrefold Fruit = Abode in the Heavens

Sixty-Fold Fruit = Abode in Paradise

Thirty-Fold fruit = Abode in the New Jerusalem City

If Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons and Blessed St. Papias of Hierapolis are wrong in claiming the above, i.e. they have taught a “wrong doctrine”, then would Revelation 22:19 exclude them from the Book of Life if “wrong exegesis” is considered in Revelation 22:19?

Also, do you really think Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons and Blessed St. Papias of Hierapolis are wrong or are we teaching the ‘Wrong Doctrine’?
Please notice carefully that Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons mentions that ‘this particular Doctrine’ comes from  ‘all the direct disciples of the Blessed Apostles themselves’ as his quote earlier “…The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved …” implies as seen even in Blessed St. Papias of Hierapolis’ writing likewise too where Blessed St. Papias of Hierapolis himself is one of that ‘Presbyters, the disciples of the apostles’ whom Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons refers to as he is a personal disciple of Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote Revelation 22:19 itself. Can you see it?

If you think rejecting the Book of Revelation as Scripture as Martin Luther did and rejecting another 7 books from the Bible likewise is not a big deal, then please ignore all this.

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First Christianity – ages of Ages Mystery

 

Question

 

Doesn’t ages of Ages (which occurs in Revelation 20:10) or also describing Christ’s Reign with His Saints (Revelation 11:15) mean Forever and Ever because if both are temporary, it seems we have a problem?

 

Reply

 

Here’s a Possible Explanation based on the Faith of these Great First Christianity Saints (hence it’s no harm for us Christian Universalists to Hope likewise as these saints can never be heretics).

 

“and He shall reign [Verb] over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of His reign [Noun, Kingdom in other translations] there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:33, YLT)

 

or

 

“And He will reign [Verb] over the house of Jacob forever [Ages/Aeons], and of His kingdom [Noun] there will be no end.” (Luke 1:33, NKJV)

 

[Emphasis Mine throughout]

 

Note: These highlighted Verb and Noun words in Verse above are of the same Root Word in Biblical Koine Greek.

 

“24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:25 – 28, NKJV)

 

Nothing in Creation will not be Subjected by His Reign into the “ages until all (not some) of His Enemies too Subject to Him” as per Verses above and below:

 

“YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing that is not subject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him.” (Hebrews 2:8, NASB)

 

Christ’s Reign is toward enemies which has an end as the word “until/till” in 1 Corinthians 15:25 means. This “reign” (verb) is referring to the subset “ages” (aeons) in Luke 1:33.

After His “Reign” (Verb) has subdued all His enemies as per 1 Corinthians 15:25, which is also referred to in Revelation 20:10 as “ages” out of the “Ages” (i. e. the “ages-subset” out of the “Larger-Ages” set), then His “Kingdom” (which includes those subjected Enemies in Obedience too now) will increase without end as Stated in Luke 1:33.

God’s Glory is highlighted (not limited) to this time period of the “ages” of “Ages” till this is Achieved as this is His Reign till only after that, He Delivers that Perfect Sinless “Kingdom” to God the Father and God (Hence GodHead, the Most Blessed Trinity ) becomes All in All (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28).

 

Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons affirms that the phrase “ages of Ages” refers to the subset-“ages” and even Blessed St. Hillary of Poitiers point likewise according to viewing God’s Plan in the “ages to come” (Ephesians 2:7) likewise as Described in quotes below:

 

1) Testimony of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

“and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:11, YLT)

 

The Biblical Concept that there are AGES to COME literally (Ephesians 2:7) is supported by St. Irenaeous himself (who was a direct Disciple of St. Polycarp who in turn was a Disciple of the Blessed St. John the apostle himself) apart from the Blessed ArchBishop St. Ambrose of Milan or Blessed St. Epiphanius of Salamis too Affirming it from Western Christianity, to quote:

“… we [True Christians] ourselves, when at the giving of thanks we pronounce the words, “To Aeons of Aeons” [Revelation 20:10] do set forth these Aeons. And, in fine, wherever the words Aeon or Aeons occur, they at once refer them to these beings. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Chapter III, Book I)

 

Translation Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html

 

Comment: St. Irenaeous clearly refers to time as the “Aeon” (singular) and “Aeons” (Plural) in his last quote above & dispels the Gnostic Myth that these refer to some creatures (beings).

 

2) Testimony of Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers

 

“… 31. What that is must be understood in view of this same hope of our faith. … By their subjection, conceived as already past, is expressed the immutable power of Christ: by their subjection, as future, is signified their consummation at the end of the ages as the result of the fulness of time. … . The abolishing is not the same as the subjecting. … A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability. 33. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself. … In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, “Hammer of Arians”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Selected part of Points 31 – 37, re-emphasized)

Source:(via the Infamous Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.v.ii.xi.html

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Faith of Jesus Christ – Accuracy

 

1) KJV Interlinear Manuscript

 

Here’s that reliable Manuscript used by NASB or NIV and all that since you were quoting “NIV” earlier. The KJV uses the ‘other reliable manuscript’ which already says “Faith of Jesus Christ” or in Koine Greek (“dia pisteōs Iēsou Christou”) .

 

The KJV Greek Manuscript or Interlinear is shown in image below from Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/3-22.htm

 

 

 

 

showing it clearly.

 

 

 

 

2) NIV Interlinear Manuscript

 

The NIV Manuscript is exactly identical to the KJV for this Verse and its Genitive too

 

 

Image from Source:

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3%3A22&version=MOUNCE

Though the NIV scholars translated it as “in” instead of “of” for “Genitive” words, in the NIV Interlinnear it is more clear (as I have a hardcopy one at my home as shown in this image).

 

Note how the NIV Interlinnear itself puts “of (in)” where “(in)” brackets is not the actual meaning but “of” is.

 

The NIV “in” is thus clearly a translation bias not having linguistic basics beyond assumption that “Faith of Jesus Christ” = “faith in Christ” where actually these two are different in meaning in Greek as per these corresponding phrases in English where the former is “Christ’s Faith” while the later is “our faith in Christ” as distinguished clearly in Galatians 2:16 likewise.

 

 

If the NIV or your claim that “Faith of Jesus Christ” = “faith in Christ” is true, then Galatians 2:16 reads “we believe in the faith in Christ” (which is absurd) but the true literal meaning is “we believe in the Faith of Christ”.

 

 

 

Proved using even your choice of more reliable manuscript.

 

 

3) Linguistics & Implication

 

The Verses Say “Faith of Jesus Christ” can do it. It has nothing to do with any error as the image itself explains this accuracy to the actual Biblical Koine Greek Written. In case you didn’t realize, the “faith in Christ” Verses have a “different term” (try showing me how these are the same?)

 

The non-Elect Salvation is by Christ Overcoming their unbelief too by His Faith (Romans 3:3 – 4, Romans 3:22 KJV’s “Faith of Jesus Christ to all”, even Romans 11:26 – 32) where only the ‘Elect Salvation is reciprocated by Faith in Christ’ (Galatians 2:16).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion – Explanation

 

And the Verse continues as KJV renders it accurately (and the NIV interlinnear is identical at this point too but translates it less accurately),

 

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:” (Romans 3:22, KJV)

 

So.

 

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all” —> (all = Elect and non-Elect as per 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10 , 1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23 too)

 

and

 

“and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference” —> the believer’s or Elect Salvation have no difference in the Salvation part in that they have ‘no afterlife Judgment’ (John 5:24)

 

The non-Elect must endure afterlife Judgment first in Gehenna (Matthew 5:22) till the last penny first (Matthew 5:26) or in the Spirit World now for some (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, first occurrence) or (1 Peter 4:5, continuing occurrence) as even the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture in First Christianity explains more in detail too.

 

An important linguistic note: If the Bible just wanted to say that the Faith of Jesus Christ is only for ‘believers’, then the “word all” need NOT be Written in the Verse as it should read as follows then:

 

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto … them that believe: for there is no difference:” (Romans 3:22, without the word “all”)

 

To say that these are equivalent is saying that with and without the word “all” the Sentence/Meaning is same which is absurd as the meaning must change if a word is omitted and vice versa.

 

This is equivalent to the Verse below where if God wanted to Say that He Will only Save believers, He could have just written the following (linguistically speaking):

 

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of … those that believe.” (1 Timothy 4:10, not written)

 

But instead this is what is actually Written:

 

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” (1 Timothy 4:10, KJV)

 

and likewise this Verse should be Written as:

 

“Who will have all believers to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4, not written)

 

or

 

“Who will have believers to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4, not written)

 

but again this is actually Written (below):

 

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV)

 

Again, to say that the above are equivalent is not accurate as in the English (likewise equivalent in Greek in Meaning) the change of words from “all men” to “all believers” or “believers” makes the meaning entirely different and that’s why we are allowed to Pray for the Salvation of “All Men” (all human beings ever created) as that’s what Christians as Priests ought to do on behalf (1 Timothy 2:1) and whether God Answers or not, He Will do it in His Time & that part is His Decision Alone.

 

Implying that this Hope is Valid Biblically.

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Atonement Mystery

 

Question

 

If one can pay for one’s own sins, why need Christ?

 

Reply

 

1 Peter 3:18 – 19 – afterlife Salvation after Judgment continues till today for some as per 1 Peter 4:5 – 6. This is evidenced in the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture too.

 

Christ Said one can pay for their sins in afterlife Judgment of Gehenna (Matthew 5:22) till the last penny only (limited, Matthew 5:26) but to participate in the New Creation or Healed post Judgment, one needs Christ’s Ransom (1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23, 1 Timothy 2:6). This is the “non-Elect” Salvation.

 

Believers are more special because their reward of faith is to attain to this Without afterlife Judgment (John 5:24) as believers are still judged on earth (Hebrews 12:8).

 

In other words, the reason Christ’s Ransom only applies to unbelievers post afterlife Judgment for some now (1 Peter 3:18 – 19, continuing till today, 1 Peter 4:5 – 6) and some later in Gehenna/Lake of Fire (Matthew 5:22) till the last penny (Matthew 5:26) is the “same reason” believers are judged for their sins on earth (Hebrews 12:8, 1 Peter 2:20, 1 Corinthians 5:5) but believers never get judged in the Spirit World as a reward for believing in Him (John 5:24).

Christ’s Ransom for “Many” (Matthew 26:28, Matthew 20:28) for the “Forgiveness of sins” (or facing ‘no afterlife / Spirit World Judgment’) applies only to those who are Covenanted in Believing in Christ (John 5:24, John 6:53). That is their sins are forgiven before a Christian dies and thus they go through no afterlife Judgment immediately participating in “life” in the Blessed Abodes upon death (Luke 16:19 – 31).

Now, Christ’s Ransom to “All” (1 Timothy 2:6) is to be testified / come True in its own Divine-Kairois (plural)-Times for “all men” eventually causing them to be “saved” (1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, 1 John 2:2, John 1:29, John 6:51) is thus post-afterlife Judgment for the rest (i.e. the ‘non-Elect Salvation’) since they did not believe in Him and hence cannot merit this reward of faith (John 5:24, Hebrews 9:27).

 

That is to say that if we question why Christ needs to die if we pay/suffer for our sins in some way, it’s the same contradiction that Christians suffer and pay for their sins on earth now as Hebrews 12:8, 1 Peter 2:20 or 1 Corinthians 5:5 means too. So, we are judged for our sins regardless only difference is the severity or mercy endured according to one’s life and in Love, faith and works as a “man only reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7).

 

In other words, if the classical atonement theory is true in that Christians do not pay for their sins at all since Christ Paid it all, then why do Christians suffer for their sins as Hebrews 12:8, 1 Peter 2:20 and 1 Corinthians 5:5 clearly teach contradicting their claim?

Truth is, these Bible Verses are true and Christians pay for their sins on earth being “saved in the spirit” state only receiving a sinless-body on the Day of Lord Jesus Christ (Resurrection, Last Day) despite facing the “Destruction of the Flesh” for such severe sin cases as 1 Corinthians 5:5 teaches on earth itself. The reward of faith is clearly that His Ransom for this “many” begins to apply after their death beginning in full forgiveness of sins till there is “no” afterlife/spirit world Judgment at all (John 5:24). This is the “Elect Salvation”.

 

If 1 Corinthians 5:5 teaches a non-Christian backslided one whose “spirit is Saved on the Day of Lord Jesus” post the “Destruction of the flesh”, then it’s a proof of a “non-Elect Salvation”. I cannot be 100% sure whether 1 Corinthians 5:5 refers to which case as some fathers of the church have spoken implying both ways but regardless this Atonement theory still holds true either way.

 

Conclusion – How do we pay for our sins then?

We either suffer for it or our actions in Love may atone for it especially almsgiving according to the Bible Verses below:

 

The Bible Book of Tobit affirms this Doctrine of Almsgiving which delivers from Death as a compensation of your sins in some way as this Secret was Revealed by Blessed Archangel Raphael himself (Raphael means ‘God Who Heals’), to quote:

i) It Saves/Keeps a person away from ‘Hell’ or the ‘Dark World of the Dead’

“7 Give generously to anyone who faithfully obeys God.[a] If you are stingy in giving to the poor, God will be stingy in giving to you. 8 Give according to what you have. The more you have, the more you should give. Even if you have only a little, be sure to give something. 9 This is as good as money saved. You will have your reward in a time of trouble. 10-11 Taking care of the poor is the kind of offering that pleases God in heaven. Do this, and you will be kept safe from the dark world of the dead.” (Good News Translation, Tobit 4:7 – 11)

Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+4&version=GNT

or from another translation below:

 

“7 Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person:
for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee.
8 According to thy ability be merciful.
9 If thou have much give abundantly: if thou have a little, take care even so to bestow willingly a little.
10 For thus thou storest up to thyself a good reward for the day of necessity.
11 For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness.
12 Alms shall be a great confidence before the most high God, to all them that give it.”

(Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 4:7 – 12)

Source: https://biblescripture.net/Tobias.html

  1. ii) Almsgiving will Save you from Death and wash away all your sins“7 It’s a good idea to keep a king’s secret, but what God does should be told everywhere, so that he may be praised and honored. If you do good, no harm will come to you.8 It is better to pray sincerely and to please God by helping the poor than to be rich and dishonest. It is better to give to the poor than to store up gold. 9 Such generosity will save you from death and will wash away all your sins.  … 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him.” (Good News Translation, Tobit 12:7 – 9, 15)Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+12&version=GNT

 

or in another translation:

“6 Then he said to them secretly: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. 7 For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. 8 Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting. … 15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven who stand before the Lord.” (Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 12:6 – 9, 15)

Source: https://biblescripture.net/Tobias.html

 

Is the Book of Tobit Canonical Scripture? It was in entire First Christianity till Martin Luther removed it for the Protestants following after Judaism, to quote:

“… The Book of Tobit (/ˈtoʊbɪt/)[a] is a book of scripture that is part of the Catholic and Orthodox biblical canons. It was recognized as canonical by the Council of Hippo (in 393), the Councils of Carthage of 397 and 417, and the Council of Florence (in 1442), and confirmed in the Counter-Reformation by the Council of Trent (1546). It is not found in Protestant or Jewish biblical canons. Augustine[9] (c. 397 AD) and Pope Innocent I[10] (405 AD) affirmed Tobit as part of the Old Testament Canon. Athanasius (367 AD) mentioned that certain other books, including the book of Tobit, while not being part of the Canon, “were appointed by the Fathers to be read”.[11] According to Rufinus of Aquileia (c. 400 AD) the book of Tobit and other deuterocanonical books were not called Canonical but Ecclesiastical books.[12] Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England lists it as a book of the “Apocrypha“.[13] Protestants regard Tobit as apocryphal because it was not included in the Tanakh nor considered canonical by Judaism. …” – Wikipedia (Book of Tobit)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit

Is the Book of Tobit Canonical Scripture? It was in entire First Christianity till Martin Luther* removed it for the Protestants following after Judaism, to quote:

 

“… The Book of Tobit (/ˈtoʊbɪt/)[a] is a book of scripture that is part of the Catholic and Orthodox biblical canons. It was recognized as canonical by the Council of Hippo (in 393), the Councils of Carthage of 397 and 417, and the Council of Florence (in 1442), and confirmed in the Counter-Reformation by the Council of Trent (1546). It is not found in Protestant or Jewish biblical canons. Augustine[9] (c. 397 AD) and Pope Innocent I[10] (405 AD) affirmed Tobit as part of the Old Testament Canon. Athanasius (367 AD) mentioned that certain other books, including the book of Tobit, while not being part of the Canon, “were appointed by the Fathers to be read”.[11] According to Rufinus of Aquileia (c. 400 AD) the book of Tobit and other deuterocanonical books were not called Canonical but Ecclesiastical books.[12] Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England lists it as a book of the “Apocrypha”.[13] Protestants regard Tobit as apocryphal because it was not included in the Tanakh nor considered canonical by Judaism. …” – Wikipedia (Book of Tobit)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit

 

“For the wages of sin is [Second] death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23, NKJV)

 

Now if Romans 6:23’s “Death” is assumed to refer to the ‘Second Death’ by most Christians, then Proverbs 11:4 must also refer likewise too because the ‘first death’ (or earthly death happens not just to the wicked but also to the righteous while the ‘Second Death’ applies to anyone who is not of the First Resurrection as Blessed Archbishop Ambrose has commented prior, see Revelation 20:4 – 6 & John 5:24 too). So, if this “Death” refers to the “Second Death”, please consider again these Verses and Authoritative Quotes from our discussion prior:

 

“Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness [including charity/alms] delivers from [Second] death.” (Proverbs 11:4, NKJV)

“… Riches will not avail on the Day of wrath, but charity will save from [Second] death. …” – Rashi

 

“… and stronger than all these is death. But charity delivers from [Second]  death. … ”  – The Talmud

 

“… When you can do good, defer it not, because “alms delivers from [Second]  death.” …” – Blessed St. Polycarp

 

“Taking care of the poor is the kind of offering that pleases God in heaven. Do this, and you will be kept safe from the dark world of the dead.” (Good News Translation, Tobit 4:10 – 11)

“9 Such generosity will save you from [Second] death and will wash away all your sins. …” (Good News Translation, Tobit 12:9)

Analysis: Gehenna is Revealed as a Metaphor (or analogy) of the Final Lake of Fire or “Second Death” region in Old Testament times itself. To quote:

 

Example – the Targums

The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible known as Targums supply the term “Gehinnom” frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase “second death”, as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of “Gehenna” to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses “where their worm does not die”.


Example – Rabbinical Judaism

The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Bereshith 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Bereshith 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year. There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[21] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.

Source:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

 

Comment: If their concept of Gehenna is wrong, Christ wouldn’t have mentioned it. But does it mean that Rabbinical Judaism got the facts regarding Gehenna right? The Rabbinical writings contain some truth but they missed some part of it. That’s why when Lord Jesus Christ spoke of Gehenna, He is referring to what they know but corrected their understanding of it and revealed more details as it is Written in New Testament verses.

 

Here’s an interesting point: Christ never corrected their belief in a Purgatorial Hell (Gehenna) Universalism till the last penny only as He Himself Taught that (as we shall see next) while also regarding Gehenna, Christ never corrected their belief in that the Messiah (Lord Jesus Christ Himself though they did not recognize Him then) will not only be able to Save souls from Hell now (Hades/Sheol) but also from the Final Lake of Fire (Gehenna/Second Death) later, to quote this well known Fact regarding ‘Judaism too’:

(i) What’s the Difference between Gehenna and Sheol (Hades)?

To quote (Page 34):

 

“Hanhart (1966:32) states that according to Jeremias, however, it is fundamental

 

for our understanding of the New Testament to make a sharp distinction between Hades

and Gehenna.

 

Hades is used exclusively for the interim period, Gehenna on the other side

 

for a state of punishment after the last judgment. In Hades, the punishment is provisional, in Gehenna eternal.”

 

(ii) Can the Messiah [Lord Jesus Christ] Save from Gehenna (the Final Judgment, Lake of Fire) itself?

 

To quote (Page 38):

 

“Bernard (1915:290) quotes two passages from the Bereshith Rabba to show that this idea was prominent in Jewish literature. He is, however, unsure of the dating of the literature.

 

Nevertheless, it still demonstrates the basic purpose of the descent:

‘When they are bound, they that are in Gehinnom, saw the light of the Messiah, they

rejoiced to receive him’; and ‘This is that which stands written, We shall rejoice and exult thee.

When?

 

When the captives climb out of hell, and the Shechinah at their head.’

The only difference here is that the captives are in Gehinnom and not Sheol.”

Source for both Quotes are from this phD Dissertation (link below, please read it). Indeed, the phD thesis I referred to may be found in link below:

 

https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1

 

 

 

 

 

To quote (some quoting the Book of Tobit as Scripture too):

John Chrysostom Homily 7 on John’s gospel (347-407 ad)
But there is another more prevailing way than this; to bear malice against none of those who have offended against us, to forgive their trespasses to all those who have trespassed against us. Will you learn a third? Hear Daniel, saying, “Redeem thy sins by almsdeeds, and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor.” (Dan. iv. 27, LXX.) And there is another besides this; constancy in prayer, and persevering attendance on the intercessions made with God. In like manner fasting brings to us some, and that not small comfort and release from sins committed, provided it be attended with kindness to others, and quenches the vehemence of the wrath of God. (1 Tim. ii. 1.) For “water will quench a blazing fire, and by almsdeeds sins are purged away.” (Ecclus. iii. 30, LXX.)

John Chrysostom Homily 4 on Philippians (347-407 ad)
And again, “And let our people also learn to maintain good works.” (Tit. iii. 14.) And again, “These things are good and profitable unto men.” (Tit. iii. 8.) Listen to a certain other one who saith, “Alms do deliver from death” (Tob. xii. 9)

 

John Chrysostom Homily 21 on Acts ch 9 (347-407 ad)
more sins he has to answer for, the greater need has he of alms, not only for this reason, but because the alms has not the. same virtue now, but far less: for it is not all one to have done it himself, and to have another do it for him; therefore, the virtue being less, let us by quantity make it the greatest. Let us not busy ourselves about monuments, not about memorials. This is the greatest memorial: set widows to stand around him. Tell them his name: bid them all make for him their prayers, their supplications: this will overcome God: though it have not been done by the man himself, yet because of him another is the author of the almsgiving. Even this pertains to the mercy of God: “widows standing around and weeping” know how to rescue, not indeed from the present death, but from that which is to come. Many have profited even by the alms done by others on their behalf: for even if they have not got perfect be not so.

Note: The quote “…know how to rescue, not indeed from the present death, but from that which is to come by Blessed St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church, Archbishop of Constantinople (c. 349 AD – c. 407 AD) seems to point to the [Second] Death in light of this Almsgiving Context in his writings especially the phrase “… rescue, not the present death, but from that which is to come [Second Death]”.

Jerome Letter 108 par 16 (347-420 ad)
She constantly had on her lips such phrases as these: “Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy:” and “water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sins;” and “make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness that … they may receive you into everlasting habitations;” and “give alms … and behold all things are clean unto you;” and Daniel’s words to King Nebuchadnezzar in which he admonished him to redeem his sins by almsgiving.

 

 

Augustine Catechising the uninstructed par 22 (354-430 ad)

“… If, however, grief has taken possession of us on account of something in which we ourselves have erred or sinned, we should bear in mind not only that a “broken spirit is a sacrifice to God,” but also the saying, “Like as water quencheth fire, so alms sin;” …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD)

Leo the Great Sermon 9 (395-461 ad)

“… Let no one therefore, dearly beloved, flatter himself on any merits of a good life, if works of charity be wanting in him, and let him not trust in the purity of his body, if he be not cleansed by the purification of almsgiving. For “almsgiving wipes out sin,” kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire. (Tobit) …” – Pope Leo I (c. 400 – 10 November 461), also known as Saint Leo the Great, was Bishop of Rome from 29 September 440 and died in 461. Pope Benedict XVI said that Leo’s papacy “…was undoubtedly one of the most important in the Church’s history.”

 

Source for each well known quote above:

 

https://practicalapologetics.blogspot.com/2013/07/early-church-fathers-on-almsgiving.html

 

Here’s a Biblical Example Proving this Claim further:

“Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 7:47, NKJV)

 

“And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8, NKJV)

 

Please take note that if one does a work of Love as Love is in action (and not in words/feelings in the heart, 1 John 3:18), then the “Love” can “cover/pay for one’s multitude of sins” (as the Bible describes this transaction in 1 Peter 4:8) and the real example of a “loving prostitute who just met Christ” covered “all her many great sins” as Christ Himself Described this Atonement Theory in Luke 7:47. Please also take note carefully that Christ Says that “her love” covers or ‘pays for her sin’ in Luke 7:47. Also see carefully that ‘she hasn’t believed in Christ or has just believed in Christ’ and so her “acts of Love” (1 John 3:18) must be those done prior even before she met Christ and that’s what Christ Implies that caused her Forgiveness (in Luke 7:47). Another factor that determines forgiveness is also how easily we forgive others and so we see that there is more than one ‘transaction’ (for a lack of a better word) which determines how easily we may obtain forgiveness based on our work to forgive others who wrong us too (Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:1 – 2). This is the “Penance” Theory in Christianity which is all Biblical.

 

 

Here are the other Bible Verses quoted in this discussion:

 

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.” (Galatians 6:7, NKJV)

 

“My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.” (1 John 3:18, NKJV)

 

“deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5, NKJV)

 

“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,” (Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)

 

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (John 5:24, NKJV)

 

” 5who will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God.” (1 Peter 4:5 – 6, Berean Literal Bible)

 

“18because Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, so that He might bring you to God, having been put to death indeed in the flesh, but having been made alive in the spirit, 19in which also having gone, He preached to the spirits in prison 20at one time having disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, of the ark being prepared, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were saved through water,” (1 Peter 3:18 – 20, Berean Literal Bible)

 

“Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53, NKJV)

 

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51, NKJV)

 

“The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29, NKJV)

 

“For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.” (1 Peter 2:20, NKJV)

 

“But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.” (Hebrews 12:8, KJV)

 

“But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 6:15, NKJV)

 

“1“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:1 – 2, NKJV)

 

P/S: First Christianity taught this Atonement Theory via Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan

To quote:

“… If you have anything, through your hands you shall give ransom for your sins…” – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (Chapter 4. Various Precepts)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

St. Ambrose defined Luke 12:49 the same Way we did to refer to the Final Lake of Fire/Gehenna Judgment as the Final Baptism of Fire on that Day toward the Wicked or Fallen Believers too where the sin or the work of the flesh perish (This overlapping section is quoted from an earlier chapter too):

 

“… I came to set the earth on fire, and what is my will, if not that finally it lights up? [Luke 12:49] I must be baptized with a baptism, and what is my torment as long as it is not accomplished! ” Higher up, He has kept us vigilant, waiting at all times for the coming of the Lord Savior, lest by slackening, by negligence, by differing from day to day his work, such, preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all, in the form of a general precept; but the theme of the following comparison seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them. But as the profit is thin, and the merit is low, when it is the fear of the punishment which prevents from going astray, since the charity and the love have a superior dignity, the Lord sharpens our zeal to deserve its favor and we are inflamed with the desire to acquire God, saying, “I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;… They have thus taught with evidentness what is the action of this fire, which enlightens the intimate of the heart. For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:49 – 50)

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrose-on-luke-12

 

Proof Phrase that this Refers to the Final Lake of Fire Judgment toward those Christians who are treated as Unbelievers (Luke 12:46) from the above by St. Ambrose himself: “… I came to set the earth on fire … preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all… seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them … I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;…”.

Indeed, you can clearly see that St. Ambrose reveals that some Christian leaders or bishops are punished as unbelievers (Luke 12:46) in the Lake of Fire Context (hence the current purgatory is not enough) during the future Day of Judgment in a fire which produces ‘good will’ as he even quotes 1 Corinthians 3:12 implying that 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15 may be applied to mean Salvation from the Lake of Fire, yes “even so through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15) toward such fallen-believers who are deemed equal to unbelievers who have ‘equal sentences’ (Luke 12:46) proving our Context Claim Right Again. Can you see it?

Regardless, the “wicked” are said to be in the lake of Fire only till the last penny (not forever but an Aeonian Sentence which is proportioned according to their sin) as St. Ambrose’s commentary on Verses 58 – 59 prior clearly prove as follows:

 

“… It will be the same at the end of time: the angels will come to separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. … On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

Christ Himself is the “Fire” through which they are Saved (1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15) as St. Ambrose Revealed above:

 

“… For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:49, highlighted)

Strangely, the Commentary for Luke 12:46 – 48 is missing in the link above. Did St. Ambrose not write it or was it lost in history?

 

Two Ways Sin is Diminished in the ‘Prison’ of the Lake of Fire

Bible Verses:

“For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:58 – 59, NASB)

 

  1. a) 1st & 2nd Way Combined (the Last Baptism of Fire which applies to All Human Being either in this life or next – Mark 9:49, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17):

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. Now it is the custom, as we remember, to give a bath to the baths: by presenting it, everyone obtains the faculty of bathing there; so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

  1. b) 1st Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

  1. c) 2nd Way highlighted:

“…Likewise here: either … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above… the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

Can you really see it ‘as It is Written’?

 

The Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment is Till the last Penny only and not Forever as our Most Merciful Savour Himself Declared

 

Yes, only the Sin Perishes (Meaning of ‘Eternal Destruction’, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 in Body + Soul Matthew 10:28) and not the sinner who is Saved through Fire in the End (1 Corinthians 3:15):

 

“… saying, “I have come to set fire to the earth,” [Luke 12:49] not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;… For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:49 – 50, highlighted)

 

and

 

“… Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. Now it is the custom, as we remember, to give a bath to the baths: by presenting it, everyone obtains the faculty of bathing there; so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

Saved by Fire? Then why need Christ?

 

Firstly, Christ Himself is the Fire (Hebrews 12:29) and so such one are Saved by Christ.

 

An Additional Comment: Many Protestants may not feel comfortable with the phrase “… whatever the mode of payment, of it is by the compensation of charity and other works, or by some satisfaction, that the penalty of sin is extinguished…” as they claim that it Makes Void the Work of Christ.

 

Please notice that the Work of Christ is toward the ‘Making Alive’ which applies to All Men eventually (1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23) but the afterlife Judgment part is excluded for Christians (John 5:24) because they are already Baptized with His Holy Spirit on Earth itself Who Consumes all sin and Vanity (Hebrews 12;8) and hence the Rest of Mankind are Baptized in His Fire (Mark 9:49, Hebrews 12:29) either in Hades or Lake of Fire which is more painful but may be Saved thereafter in the End (1 Corinthians 3:15).

 

So, the idea of Judgment can be ‘Cancelled or Reduced’ according to ‘one’s own charity works [alms] done in life’ (2 Maccabees 12:43*, see St. Polycarp’s quote below) or by the prayers of the righteous for the dead (2 Timothy 1:18, 2 Maccabees 12:42 – 46) is certainly Biblical as it is Mentioned briefly by the Apostolic Father below too, to quote:

 

“…When you can do good, defer it not, because “alms delivers from death.” …” – St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle (c. 69 AD – c. 155 A, Chapter X, Epistle to the Philippians)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

*Here are the 2 Maccabees Verses and a brief explanation:

“41All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, 42Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas [Maccabees] exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. 43And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: 44For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. 45And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.” (2 Maccabees 12:41 – 45, the Original King James Bible)

Source: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Maccabees-Chapter-12/

 

The noble Judas Maccabees was certainly a prophet of God to the Jews and the Book above (1 & 2 Maccabees only) is Considered Canonical in First Christianity till even when the First King James Bible was translated (before the birth of Martin Luther himself), to quote:

“Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox regard 2 Maccabees as canonical. Jews and all Protestants other than Anglo-Catholics do not… a biblical canon identical with the list given at Trent including the two books of Maccabees. Origen of Alexandria (A.D. 253),[17] Augustine of Hippo (c. 397 AD),[18] Pope Innocent I (405 AD),[19][20] Synod of Hippo (393 AD),[21] the Council of Carthage (397 AD),[22] the Council of Carthage (419 AD),[23] the Apostolic Canons,[24] the Council of Florence (1442 AD)[25] and the Council of Trent (1546 AD)[26] listed the first two books of Maccabees as canonical…”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Maccabees

 

*Comment: Martin Luther’s action to remove 7 books from the Bible at that time is highly questionable especially since he himself did not believe in the Book of Revelation as Scripture making his judgments questionable as discussed in detail in posts below [same as the “Non Elect Salvation Topic 9 on Page 1261 onward”]:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159399659322784

 

and

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159399771867784

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Non Elect Salvation Topic : First Christianity Book of Enoch Reveals the Lake of Fire

 

The claim that the Lake of Fire has Purification Effects based on 1 Corinthians 3:15 to be “Saved by Fire” even toward the sinners/wicked has a support from the Book of Enoch too, to quote:

Fallen Angels – Lake of Fire for Healing Later too?

 

“… And through its valleys proceed streams of fire, where these angels are punished who had led astray those who dwell upon the earth. 8 But those waters shall in those days serve for the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, for the healing of the body, but for the punishment of the spirit; now their spirit is full of lust, that they may be punished in their body, for they have denied the Lord of Spirits 9 and see their punishment daily, and yet believe not in His name. And in proportion as the burning of their bodies becomes severe, a corresponding change shall take place in their spirit for ever and ever; 10 for before the Lord of Spirits none shall utter an idle word. For the judgement shall come upon them, 11 because they believe in the lust of their body and deny the Spirit of the Lord. And those same waters will undergo a change in those days; for when those angels are punished in these waters, these water-springs shall change their temperature, and when the angels ascend, this water of the 12 springs shall change and become cold. And I heard Michael answering and saying: ‘ This judgement wherewith the angels are judged is a testimony for the kings and the mighty who possess the 13 earth.’ Because these waters of judgement minister to the healing of the body of the kings and the lust of their body; therefore they will not see and will not believe that those waters will change and become a fire which burns for ever. …” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 67)

Translation Source: http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

 

Please note that the last word translated as “for ever” is more accurately “age-during or to the age” as this Judgment Sentence if it is forever instead of age-during is ‘conditional to repentance’ as we saw in an earlier quote from the Book of Enoch (Chapter 50) in the previous discussion implying this. However, even if (for arguments’ sake) this means forever, we know that God can ‘Cancel’ this ‘forever sentence’ by His Mercy which Triumphs over and Ends any afterlife Judgment Sentence as James 2:13-NASB Reveals Majestically.

Is this proper Exegesis?

 

Yes, please consider these quotes from the Book of Enoch above ‘carefully’:

  1. Lake of Fire or Gehenna Context in the Final Judgment

 

“And through its valleys proceed streams of fire, where these angels are punished who had led astray those who dwell upon the earth”

 

  1. Judgment – Retributive and Restorative Fire

 

“But those waters shall in those days serve for the kings and the mighty and the exalted, and those who dwell on the earth, for the healing of the body, but for the punishment of the spirit; now their spirit is full of lust, that they may be punished in their body, for they have denied the Lord of Spirits 9 and see their punishment daily, and yet believe not in His name.”

 

iii. Saved in spirit Context – Change will occur from Evil turned to Good (in Principle relating to 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Peter 4:6 too)

 

“And in proportion as the burning of their bodies becomes severe, a corresponding change shall take place in their spirit for ever and ever; 10 for before the Lord of Spirits none shall utter an idle word.”

  1. Lake of Fire – Both Retributive and Purifies

 

Retributive part: “for when those angels are punished in these waters, these water-springs shall change their temperature, and when the angels ascend, this water of the 12 springs shall change and become cold.”

 

Purifying part: “And I heard Michael answering and saying: ‘ This judgement wherewith the angels are judged is a testimony for the kings and the mighty who possess the 13 earth.’ Because these waters of judgement minister to the healing of the body of the kings and the lust of their body;”

 

Retributive Judgment vs Purification or Purgatorial Hell Universalism in the Lake of Fire is conditional to Repentance in the Lake of Fire itself

 

 

“therefore they will not see and will not believe that those waters will change and become a fire which burns for ever [age/aeon/olam]”

 

Can you see it even toward the Context of both ‘fallen angels & wicked men’ as Described above agreeing to Isaiah24:22’s more accurate word translated as “Visited” in the King James Translation which pertains to being “released” (see image at the end) as per whether a “Subjection” of “All” (not some) of His Enemies (1 Corinthians 15:25) has been achieved post-Judgment for this non-Elect Salvation which correlates perfectly with 1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28 as even Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers has expounded (as discussed in “non-Elect Salvation Topic 1 on Page 1225” prior)?

 

 

Comment: Temporariness of Gehenna is clearly described by our Most Blessed Saviour till the ‘last penny only’ (Matthew 5:26) when He Spoke of it in Matthew 5:22 onward . Also, “Gehenna” (in Matthew 5:22) is called as “Prison” (in Matthew 5:26) as per the Old Testament reference Isaiah 24:22.

 

Bible Verses:

 

“22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell [Gehenna] fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew 5:22 – 26, NKJV)

 

“21And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.” (Isaiah 24:21 – 22, KJV)

 

All I see is Christ whilst describing Gehenna-Judgment in Matthew 5:22 describes certain sins which are closely linked and parabolically describes Gehenna as the Prison (in Isaiah 24:22 too) which is till the last penny only as He Says they will pay it. The impossible to pay and equivalent claims are just conjectures which are not Written in these Verses.

 

The Hebrew Word accurately translated as “Visited” in Isaiah 24:22 above agrees in that they are inspected as to whether the punishment is to carry on or has achieved its sentence till the ‘last penny’ (Matthew 5:22 – 26) as to whether “Subjection” is attained for “All His Enemies” (not some of His Enemies, 1 Corinthians 15:25) till God becomes “All in All” (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28).

 

They can pay for their sins as Christ Mentions in Matthew 5:22 – 26 prior but they cannot participate in the New Creation as per the Sinless Resurrection Body which is what Christ Promises to All Men (1 Corinthians 15:20 – 23). Example of those who paid for their sins in the past were the spirits in prison after which they had to wait for Christ to save them and bring them into Saved lower abodes (1 Peter 3:18 – 20) implies.

 

Another Comment: Again you read Ezekiel Verses is talking about the “you” being restored referring to the ‘equivalent or worse sinners in Israel’ being restored from the Captivity of Sin (Judgment) and not toward the righteous in Ezekiel 16:51 – 55. Please read carefully again sir.

 

Here it is ‘as it is Written’:

“51“Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. 53“When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.” (Ezekiel 16:51 – 55, NKJV)

 

 

God even calls the Sodom’s “abomination sinners” as “more righteous” when compared to Israel’s. The “Sodom” referred to is the one in Jude 1:7 and the cities surrounding it (or “daughters”) as it is Written in Jude 1:7 too referring to all of them to be Restored ‘later post-Judgment’ in Ezekiel 16:51 – 55.

Please allow me to repeat (based on Acts 3:21) too:

Which “you”?  The “sinful one”:

 

“52You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.” (Ezekiel 16:52, NKJV)

 

Which “you” restored? These “same sinful ones” again, right:

 

“53“When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.” (Ezekiel 16:53 – 55, NKJV)

 

 

This direct Implication of Ezekiel 16:51 – 55 to refer to the outcome of the “Eternal Fire” Judgment toward “Sodom” is not my personal interpretation but I’m just quoting what this Great Saint in First Christianity himself wrote likewise using these Verses, to quote

“… [Hence a prevalent tone of hopefulness about the future state of the baptized]; even Sodom and Gomorrah, their punishment in history having satisfied the righteousness of God, shall ultimately be saved 359. Yet God has a perfect, immutable goodness of which human goodness, though real, falls infinitely short, because He is steadfast and we are driven by varying impulses 360 …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, “Hammer of Arians”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, 359    Ib. lxviii. 22, based on St. Matt. x. 15. and 360    Ib. lii. 11, 12.)

Source [via infamous Historian Mr. Philip Schaff]:

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.iii.ii.html#fnf_ii.iii.ii-p249.1

 

More Comment: Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers is pointing out since even “Sodom and Gomorrah” will eventually be “Saved” after the ‘punishment’ (of Baptism by Fire in the Lake of Fire*), how much more a person who is baptized on earth. This also points that 1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15’s Context is ‘not fallen Christians only’ being “Saved through Fire” in the Lake of Fire but also perhaps the wicked too as St. Hilary points to ‘Sodom’ whom we know suffers the Vengeance of Eternal [Aionion] Fire (Jude 1:7) till they are restored (Ezekiel 16:53 – 55)?

 

 

Note: Since Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons and “many” of the “earliest leaders of the church” called the Book of Enoch as “Scripture” (hence that is First Christianity), all these claims have a way higher chance of being True especially regarding these “Future Prophecies” part as opposed to the claim of ‘later church leaders only’ not accepting it fully as Scripture, to quote:

“… The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4)[26] and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras,[27] Clement of Alexandria,[28] Irenaeus[29] and Tertullian,[30] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[31] However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an “apocryphal” work. …” – Wikipedia

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

There are three Types of the Book of Enoch but the one I’m quoting and speaking about is the “original Jewish one” called “1 Enoch” which is the same translation as you may see in link below too:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/1enoch.html

 

A Full detailed explanation of the Various types of the Book of Enoch may be read in link below:

 

https://www.livius.org/sources/about/1-enoch/

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First Christianity – Book of Enoch Mystery

 

Question

 

Have you heard about the Book of Enoch?

 

Reply

 

Hi bro,

 

Yes, I’m aware of the Book of Enoch. I have at least one hardcopy of it with me and I have studied it personally to some extent.

The idea that it is corrupted is just a claim. Nobody knows if it’s corrupted or it has been preserved. The protestant theologians claim that sometimes because they don’t want to include it.

Due to non-consensus on agreement, the ‘later Christians only rejected it’. The earliest church fathers believed it is Scripture and that this is the same Book quoted in the New Testament (Jude 1:14 – 15), which means even if it’s not inspired, you won’t be condemned by quoting it as Scripture but the chances of it being Inspired Scripture is very high especially due to the endorsement of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons calling it as “Inspired Scripture” too, to quote:

 

“… The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4)[26] and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras,[27] Clement of Alexandria,[28] Irenaeus[29] and Tertullian,[30] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[31] However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an “apocryphal” work. …” – Wikipedia

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

Conclusion – Christ Centered Universalism Mystery in the Book of Enoch

Here’s an interesting quote from the Book of Enoch which proves that Salvation from the Lake of Fire is Possible if they repent then and if the wicked choose not to repent henceforth they may burn forevermore in the Fire by their own choice (as God Puts forth the Judgment Sentence thus as Conditional Truth but I don’t think anyone will be foolish enough to choose to rebel and burn forever as per 1 Corinthians 15:25’s Subjection eventually by “all” [ not some ] of His Enemies too in the End as per 1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28), to quote:

 

Such a final chance given by God is uttered Mysteriously in the Prophecy of the Book of Enoch too where such may be ‘Saved with no honour’ (hence not referring to the Christian Salvation or ‘the Elect’ in Verse below) and by His Great Name ( Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21) on Judgment Day either toward those in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) or prior or both, to quote:

 

“… 1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect, And the light of days shall abide upon them, And glory and honour shall turn to the holy, 2 On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits: And He will cause the others to witness (this) That they may repent And forgo the works of their hands. 3 They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits, Yet through His name shall they be saved [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21], And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them, For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement, And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself: At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him. 5 And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits. …” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 50)

Translation Source: http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

Focus Phrase: “… And He will cause the others [the sinners and/or Wicked] to witness (this) That they may repent And forgo the works of their hands. 3 They shall have NO HONOUR through the NAME of the LORD of SPIRITS, Yet THROUGH HIS NAME [John 14:6] SHALL THEY BE SAVED [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Matthew 12:21], And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them …” – Book of Enoch.

 

P/S: Testimony of Blessed Ambrosiaster

Probably by quoting Books such as Enoch did Blessed Ambrosiaster has a similar prophecy echoed toward “unsaved sinners” on “Judgment Day” Repentance and “Non-Elect Salvation” (most likely during or after the Judgment in the Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire), to quote:

Verses: Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13, Isaiah 45:22.

 

“Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.” (Isaiah 45:22, NKJV)

” … QUESTION 126. FROM THE ONE WHO RECEIVED THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. … In fact, the knowledge of God must inspire the fear of the just judge, in whose court he teaches us that the faithful will receive the reward of their righteousness, and the ungodly, that is to say the unbelievers, the just punishment of their infidelity. It is of all justice, indeed, that the good ones be filled with joy in the future life in which Jesus Christ must reign with his chosen ones. They have been exposed to scorn, outrages in this world where the devil reigns, they will appear surrounded by glory in the kingdom of Jesus Christ for which they have borne the contempt of the worldly. SINNERS, on the contrary, who seemed to shine here below a false brilliance, opposing falsehood to truth, have to wait for tribulation and an imaginary glory to succeed for them a contempt, a humiliation too real. The righteous will rejoice in having believed, when they witness the chastisements of the unbelieving, and THE UNFAITHFUL WILL REPENT of THEIR UNBELIEF ONLY when THEY SEE BOTH THEIR OWN CHASTISEMENT and the glory of those WHOSE FAITH THEY HAD REGARDED as an ACT of MADNESS, which was only worthy of their contempt. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

Source: https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/ambrosiaster-questions-on-the-old-and-new-testaments/polemic

Focus Phrases Proving our Claim:

“… SINNERS, on the contrary, who seemed to shine here below a false brilliance, opposing falsehood to truth, have to wait for tribulation and an imaginary glory to succeed for them a contempt, a humiliation too real. … and THE UNFAITHFUL WILL REPENT of THEIR UNBELIEF ONLY when THEY SEE BOTH THEIR OWN CHASTISEMENT and the glory of those WHOSE FAITH THEY HAD REGARDED as an ACT of MADNESS, which was only worthy of their contempt. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster

Since these “sinners” or the “unfaithful” who “repent of their unbelief” on this Judgment Day (according to Blessed Ambrosiaster above) are said to have been those who regarded the Faith of True-Christians as “Madness”, thus these must refer to the ‘Sinners’ (Good non-Christians) and/or ‘Wicked only’ being ‘unbelievers’ who must first endure their Judgment/Chastisement first accordingly (Luke 12:46 – 48) making our definition earlier accurate in Blessed Ambrosiaster’s own words in this ‘Judgment Day Context’.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Faith of Jesus Christ Alone Saves us – Lost Mystery

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Verses in Image. Example of First Christianity Quotes – Pascha Mystery – The Power of His Resurrection:

 

“… Some say that [Christ delivered from Hades] only those who believed, such as fathers and prophets, judges and together with them kings, local rulers and some others from the Hebrew people, not numerous and known to all. But we shall reply to those who think so that there is nothing undeserved, nothing miraculous and nothing strange in that Christ should save those who believed, for He remains only the fair Judge, and every one who believes in Him will not perish. So they all ought to have been saved and delivered from the bonds of Hades by the descent of God and Master — that same happened by His Disposition. Whereas those who were saved only through [God’s] love of men were, as I think, all those who had the purest life and did all kinds of good works, living in modesty, temperance and virtue, but the pure and divine faith they did not conceive because they were not instructed in it and remained altogether unlearnt. They were those whom the Steward and Master of all drew, captured in the divine nets and persuaded to believe in Him, illuminating them with the divine rays and showing them the true light. (Concerning Those Who Died in Faith PG 95, 257 AC). …” – Blessed St. John of Damascus, the Last Father of the Church who is a revered Father of the Church, and is recognized as a saint. He is sometimes called the last of the Church Fathers by the Roman Catholic Church. In 1890 he was declared a Doctor of the Church by Pope Leo XIII (c. 675 AD – c. 749 AD)

 

Source: https://classicalchristianity.com/category/holyfathers/post-mortem/

 

 

“… The Lord, having put on human nature, and having suffered for him who suffered, having been bound for him who was bound, and having been buried for him who was buried, is risen from the dead, and loudly proclaims this message: Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ, who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down HADES, and bound the STRONG MAN [Mark 3:27 & Matthew 12:29], and have SNATCHED MANKIND up to the HEIGHTS of HEAVEN. It is I, says Christ. So then, come here ALL you FAMILIES of MEN, weighed down by your sins and recieve pardon for your misdeeds. For I am your pardon. I am the Passover which brings salvation. I am the Lamb slain for you. I am your lustral bath. I am your life. I am your resurrection. I am your light, I am your salvation, I am your King. It is I who brings you up to the heights of heaven. It is I who will give you the resurrection there. I will show you the Eternal Father. I will raise you up with my own right hand. …” – Blessed St. Melito, Jewish Bishop of Sardis, of whom Polycrates of Ephesus to Pope Victor about 194 (Eusebius, Church History V.24) states that “Melito the eunuch [this is interpreted “the virgin” by Rufinus in his translation of Eusebius], whose whole walk was in the Holy Spirit”, was buried at Sardis and Jerome, speaking of the Old Testament canon established by Melito, quotes Tertullian to the effect that he was esteemed as a prophet by many of the faithful (Died c. 180 AD, ‘Homily on Pascha’)

 

Source: https://www.orthodox.net/pascha/pascha-melito.html

 

“… What occasion will we still have for weeping? On the contrary, will not what has happened to us, thanks to the Savior, cause us boundless rejoicing? He it was Who showed the way of salvation not only to us, but also went as herald to the once disobedient spirits of the underworld, as Peter says (1 Pet. 3:19-20). For it would not have done for His loving-kindness to be shown only to some; the manifestation of the gift had to extended to all of nature. For He spoke opportunely through the Prophets, “One part shall be rained upon, and the part on which I shall not rain shall be dried up.” (Amos 4:7) But the word which befits the Savior is: “Come to me, all you who labor and are weary, and I will give you rest.” (Mt. 11:28) Having proclaimed His message, then, to the spirits in the underworld and having said to those in fetters, “Come forth!” and to those in darkness, “Show yourselves!” (cf. Isa. 49:9) He raised up the temple of Himself in three days, (cf. Jn. 2:19) and renewed for nature even the ascent into heaven, presenting Himelf to the Father as a kind of first-fruits of humanity, having endowed those on earth with a share of the Spirit as a pledge of grace. (cf. 2 Cor. 5:5) (Festal Letter 2.8) …” …” – Blessed St. Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria, Titles: The Pillar of Faith; Seal of all the Fathers; Bishop, Confessor, and Doctor of the Church (c. 376 AD – c. 444 AD)

 

Source: https://classicalchristianity.com/category/holyfathers/post-mortem/

 

Comment: Again, these non-Christian righteous or even the wicked formerly disobedient spirits in afterlife prisons (1 Peter 3:18 – 20) must be justified by the “Faith of Jesus Christ” (Christ’s Faith) as neither of these non-Christian have any ‘faith in Christ/God’ as the Shepherd of Hermas mentioned them too. Why can’t such a redemption continue now by God’s Mercy?

 

 

The “Faith of Jesus Christ” (accurate translation ‘as it is Written’) Mystery is discussed in post below for further Edification:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159256984502784

 

Yes, In the Bible (e.g. KJV translation), it seems more accurate to refer it to the “Faith of Jesus Christ” (and not our faith in Christ as Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16 and Blessed St. Clement of Rome’s quote prior seems to agree making this Possible). In fact, this rarely known accuracy seemed to have been uttered by this great early Church father too, to quote:

“… , one incomprehensible Godhead, unfathomable, inexpressible, invisible. It alone knows itself; it reveals itself to whom it will It raises up its witnesses, calls, predestines and glorifies them, lifts them up from hades, hallows them. (8) For its own glory and faith it makes these three one: things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth; …” – Blessed St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis and the ‘Hammer of Heretics’, (c. 310 AD – c. 403 AD, ‘PNEUMATOMACHI’, “Panarion or Medicine-Chest”, Points 7.1 – 7.3, Pages 498 – 499)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/EpiphaniusPanarionBksIIIII1/Epiphanius%20-%20_Panarion_%20-%20Bks%20II%20%26%20III%20-%201_djvu.txt

 

 

Where

 

The phrase “For its own glory and faith” implies that “its own Faith” = GodHead’s Own Faith = “Christ’s Faith” = the “Faith of Jesus Christ” in Romans 3:22-KJV (not by our faith we are justified but by His Faith where we become the first recipients of It when we believe first reaping Imperishable Rewards, Romans 3:26).

 

 

So, St. Epiphanius writes that by “His Faith” Christ makes even the “things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (Hell)” as one, yes as He “makes these three one” and “For its [His] own glory and faith”. So, each of the “Justification of faith for all men (all mankind)” eventually must thus refer to “His Faith” which is the Free Gift of God to all (Romans 3:22 – 24) and ‘not our faith as popularly assumed’, i. e. not of anything of ourselves including not our faith too for Salvation by His Mercy (Ephesians 2:8).

 

“… after the witness of Gabriel, after her secret knowledge of the divine conception, after the great exhibition of miracles, she shall feel about her soul a mighty tempest. The Lord was bound to taste of death for every man — to become a propitiation for the world and to justify all men by His own blood. Even thou thyself, who hast been taught from on high the things concerning the Lord, shalt be reached by some doubt. This is the sword. “That the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” …” – Blessed St. Basil the Great, was the bishop of Caesarea Mazaca in Cappadocia, Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey). He was an influential theologian who supported the Nicene Creed and opposed the heresies of the early Christian church, fighting against both Arianism and the followers of Apollinaris of Laodicea. In addition to his work as a theologian, Basil was known for his care of the poor and underprivileged. Basil established guidelines for monastic life which focus on community life, liturgical prayer, and manual labor. Together with Pachomius, he is remembered as a father of communal monasticism in Eastern Christianity, Titles: Great Hierarch, Doctor of the Church (c. 329 AD – c. 379 AD, Letter CCLLX, Point 671 – Point 672)

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/St.BasilLettersAndSelectedWorks/St_basil_lettersAndSelected_works_djvu.txt

 

In short, in Blessed St. Basil the Great’s quote above, it is clear that he refers to

 

“… to taste of death for every man — to become a propitiation for the world ” = “… to justify all men by His own blood. …”

 

Also, Where did Blessed St. Clement of Rome Prophesy or Reveal that God in Christ will “Justify All Men” eventually by “Faith*” (i. e. the ‘Faith of Jesus Christ’ or ‘Faith of God’ as apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 3:22)?

 

“… And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves* or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c. 35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement 32:4)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html

 

Both Blessed St. Basil the Great and Blessed St. Clement of Rome are just reiterating what Blessed Apostle St. Paul has Declared Majestically in Bible Verse below:

 

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN. For as through the one man’s disobedience THE MANY were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One THE MANY will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:18 – 19, NASB)

 

The Many sinners in Adam is the same Many which will be Made Righteous by Lord Jesus Christ (Proper Context for Romans 5:18 – 19). Under the Equation: ‘Adam + the Many’ = All Men = All Human Beings Ever Existed.

 

Lord Jesus Christ is exempt from the equation above simply because He is God in Flesh and not a mere Man only & Alone is never affected by Adam’s sin in any way.

 

“… For as by the disobedience of the one man who was originally moulded from virgin soil, the many were made sinners, and forfeited life; so was it necessary that, by the obedience of one man, who was originally born from a virgin, [the] many should be justified and receive salvation. Thus, then, was the Word of God made man, as also Moses says: “God, true are His works.” But if, not having been made flesh, He did appear as if flesh, His work was not a true one. But what He did appear, that He also was: God recapitulated in Himself the ancient formation of man, that He might kill sin, deprive death of its power, and vivify man; and therefore His works are true….” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Chapter XVIII, Book III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html

 

It is by the “Faith of God” (Romans 3:3 – 4 – KJV) or the “Faith of Jesus Christ” Alone (Romans 3:22 – KJV) which overcomes any unbelief of Men eventually (Romans 3:3 – 4) which causes His Mercy upon All in Unbelief/Disobedience eventually (Romans 11:30 – 32) which causes this Final “Justification of All Men” as these quoted Bible Verses and the First Christianity quotes even below agree Perfectly

Please take note that St. Basil the Great may be reiterating a Well known orthodox phraseology in his writing above which proves that Lord Jesus Christ’s Ransom applies to All Men and not Just believers (as it is implied in 1 Timothy 4:10 too) but though he didn’t believe it, it is well known that his sister (St. Macrina the Blessed-Wonder Worker*) and his brother St. Gregory of Nyssa who must have known this phraseology too certainly understood this same phraseology as Christ Centered Universalism as they are known to have believed that as shown a little in the previous essays.

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P/S 59: Finer Points in Theology – Faith of Jesus Christ causes both the Elect Salvation and the Non-Elect Salvation

 

1) “Faith of Jesus Christ” Phrase has a linguistic basic

 

Explanation, please consider:

 

Romans 3:22, “Faith of Jesus Christ”.

 

Romans 3:3 – 4, “Faith of God”.

 

Galatians 2:16, our faith in Christ = “believing in the Faith of Jesus Christ”

 

All KJV, King James Translation below as follows:

 

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even WE have BELIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16, KJV)

 

“3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the FAITH OF GOD without effect? 4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.” (Romans 3:3 – 4, KJV)

 

“Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:” (Romans 3:22, KJV)

 

Based on Verses above:

 

FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST = FAITH OF GOD = FAITH OF CHRIST

 

 

 

2) “Faith of Jesus Christ” Mystery has a Theological basis too

 

The Faith of Jesus Christ Causes the Elect Salvation First (First Resurrection Revelation 20:4 – 6, James 2:24). Agreed.

 

The Faith of Jesus Christ can also cause the non-Elect Salvation too as 1 Peter 3:18 – 19, 1 Peter 4:5 – 6, 1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15 implies because it is upon “all” and “those believing too” (both groups distinctly mentioned in Romans 3:22-KJV above) and it cannot be nullified by “unbelief” (as Romans 3:3 – 4 -KJV above) clearly writes too as the Mercy to All in “disobedience” (NASB) or in “unbelief” (NKJV) is mentioned too eventually as Romans 11:30 – 32 means in its own “Divine Times” (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 Corinthians 15:23) post Judgment ‘after the last penny be it by fire’ for the ‘non -Elect’ (Luke 12:57 – 59, Matthew 5:22 – 26, 1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15) where He Sowed not the Gospel even (Matthew 25:24, Matthew 25:26).

 

Comment: 1 Corinthians 3:15’s “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (NKJV) cannot refer to the Elect’s Salvation because the Elect do NOT go through any afterlife Judgment as John 5:24’s ““Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” (NKJV) implies clearly as the latter is described also as the First Resurrection toward whom the “Second Death” causes “no harm” in any way as Revelation 20:6 clearly Writes. Please note carefully that 1 Corinthians 3:15’s Lake of Fire Judgment because it is experienced on “that Day” referring to “Judgment Day” (in 1 Corinthians 3:13) causes ‘harm’ to some of them as 1 Corinthians 3:15 and hence this can’t refer to the Elect at all as some of the earliest most authoritative church leaders such as Blessed Archbishops St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Gregory of Nazianzus’ quotes imply as it is discussed in more detail in posts below:

  1. i) Lake of Fire Hope and the Resurrections Mystery

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159252192652784

  1. ii) Lost Orthodoxy – First Christianity – Two Badges of Righteous via Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159309319317784

 

iii) First Resurrection – Few Saved and Special Mercy to the Poor Mystery

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159357218232784

iii) Faith of Jesus Christ Alone Saves us – Lost Mystery

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159378315502784

 

  1. iv) Mystery of Faith – We are Saved by Christ’s Faith not ours

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159256984502784

 

  1. v) FAQ – Are Christian Universalists Heretics?

 

https://web.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10159377402047784

 

  1. vi) Born Again Mystery in First Christianity

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159379793907784

Verses quoted here from another translation:

 

” 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:12 – 15, NASB)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:24, NASB)

 

“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:6, NASB)

“57“And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? 58“For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59“I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:57 – 59, NASB)

 

” 22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23“Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25“Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26“Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:22 – 26, NASB)

 

Conclusion

 

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:32, NASB)

 

Note: The actual Biblical Koine Greek Word for John 12:32 only has the phrase “Draw All” and not “Draw All Men” which implies a more wholistic impact of Christ’s Redemption toward Creation as well or it’s a shorthand to refer to “all men” (as it’s done say in possibly 1 Timothy 2:6, only God Alone knows which He Means) but Bible translators often translate it as “All Men” because that’s how even the “Apostolic Fathers” of the Church especially the ones who were direct disciples of the Blessed Apostles of Christ Himself wrote it when quoting John 12:32 as seen in the example next.

Christ Draws (Drags as in Catching Fish in a Net as it means in Koine Greek) ‘All Men’ as St. Ignatius applies the General Word ‘Draw All’ or ‘Draw All things’ in John 12:32 to the Subset of ‘All Men’ as follows:

“… and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], drew all men to Himself for their eternal salvation [John 12:32]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

Please notice carefully that St. Ignatius mentions that this ‘Drawing of All [Men]’ by Christ in John 12:32 results in the Final Salvation of ‘All Men’, in his words, “… drew all men to Himself for their eternal salvation…” as Stated in a past tense Prophetically as a Done Reality to Him.

 

Perfection of God Means God Saves ‘All Men’ eventually as Basic or General Salvation is likened to the ‘Rain falling both on the Just & Unjust’ and so ‘enmity on account of faith is with Love’

 

“… ” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a lover of mankind, and “will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48]…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

Context: The phrase “… our God is a lover of mankind, and “will have all men to be saved … His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; …even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect…” clearly Proves that St. Ignatius Believes that ‘All Men’ (in the Context of ‘God being a Lover of Mankind’, hence it means all human beings ever created) will be Saved eventually (as Hebrews 2:8 also implies clearly regarding 1 Corinthian 15:24 – 28 toward His Enemies too as 1 Corinthians 15:25 Mentions).

 

Comment: The phrase “… By their subjection, conceived as already past, is expressed the immutable power of Christ: by their subjection, as future, is signified their consummation at the end of the ages as the result of the fulness of time…” in quote below proves that Christ’s Prophetic Words can Mean being Fulfilled (as a Done Reality to Him) in the Context of Subjecting All Things to Him even though it may not be Done yet in Time now (Hebrews 2:8 at the end).

 

 

“… 31. What that is must be understood in view of this same hope of our faith. … By their subjection, conceived as already past, is expressed the immutable power of Christ: by their subjection, as future, is signified their consummation at the end of the ages as the result of the fulness of time. … . The abolishing is not the same as the subjecting. … A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability. 33. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself. … In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Selected part of Points 31 – 37, re-emphasized)

 

Source:(via the Infamous Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.v.ii.xi.html

 

 

 

In Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers quote above,

 

i) The Elect Salvation = “…The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers [Quoting Philippians 3:21 for this Truth]

 

ii) The non-Elect Salvation = “… A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability. 33. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself. … In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. … according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself [Philippians 3:21] 1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers [Commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28, please refer to these Verses especially 1 Corinthians 15:25 which includes the Context of “All His Enemies” and ‘not some enemies only’ with Hebrews 2:8 also]

 

 

This ‘Elect Salvation’ and ‘non-Elect Salvation’ (including for the Wicked or His enemies being made subject to Him may also be echoed by this undisputed Great Saint in First Christianity likewise), to quote:

“… The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first. “Moreover, the prescription that twelve bells be attached to the [robe] of the high priest, which hung down to the feet, was a symbol of the twelve apostles, who depend on the power of Christ, the eternal Priest; and through their voice it is that all the earth has been filled with the glory and grace of God and of His Christ. Wherefore David also says: ‘Their sound has gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.’ And Isaiah speaks as if he were personating the apostles, when they say to Christ that they believe not in their own report, but in the power of Him who sent them. And so he says: ‘Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have preached before Him as if [He were] a child, as if a root in a dry ground.’ (And what follows in order of the prophecy already quoted.) But when the passage speaks as from the lips of many, ‘We have preached before Him,’ and adds, ‘as if a child,’ it signifies that the wicked shall become subject to Him, and shall obey His command, and that all shall become as one child. Such a thing as you may witness in the body: although the members are enumerated as many, all are called one, and are a body. For, indeed, a commonwealth and a church, though many individuals in number, are in fact as one, called and addressed by one appellation. And in short, sirs,” said I, “by enumerating all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself. But since what I have now enumerated appears to me to be sufficient, I revert again to the order of the discourse.” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100 AD – c. 160 AD, CHAPTER XLI & CHAPTER XLII, ‘Dialogue with Trypho’)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

 

Please also notice ‘carefully’ how Blessed St. Justin Martyr distinguishes the Church as One Body vs the Wicked converted as ‘One Child’ as two different entities as follows:

 

 

  1. i) The Wicked becoming Obedient/Subjected – as One Child – The “non-Elect Salvation” as per “all His Enemies” (1 Corinthians 15:25) in the End till God becomes All in All (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28)

 

“…We have preached before Him as if [He were] a child, as if a root in a dry ground.’ (And what follows in order of the prophecy already quoted.) But when the passage speaks as from the lips of many, ‘We have preached before Him,’ and adds, ‘as if a child,’ it signifies that the wicked shall become subject to Him, and shall obey His command, and that all shall become as one child … and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

 

  1. ii) The Church compared as an Analogy to that – The “Elect Salvation”

 

“… Such a thing as you may witness in the body: although the members are enumerated as many, all are called one, and are a body. For, indeed, a commonwealth and a church, though many individuals in number, are in fact as one, called and addressed by one appellation … of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him,…” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

 

 

 

“YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing that is not subject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him.” (Hebrews 2:8, NASB)

 

 

 

 

 

Truly, All Glory to God Alone for His Faith, His Glory and His Mercy. Amen.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FAQ – Are Christian Universalists Heretics?

Firstly, I put the Verse in image (Matthew 5:11) to respect a Great Christian from First Christianity namely, Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers as we shall see why soon in this write up.

Also, before we get to the Q & A (Question and Answer) section, please consider this important First Christianity example as follows:

1) Christ Centered Universalism is Condemned for the ‘First Time’ in Church History by a Late Council in the 6th Century

 

“…”If Anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration will take place of demons and of impious men, Let Him Be Anathema. Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his Nefarious and Execrable and Wicked Doctrine and and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, Or Defends These Opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them. …” –  (Second Council of Constantinople, 553 A.D.)

Note: Most (if not all) of the members of this Council ‘Pray to Virgin Mary & the Saints’. Now, by protestant standards, isn’t that a way greater heresy? Please note that Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo himself prayed to Virgin Mary as though that was First Christianity Doctrine. Hence, just because something is accepted by a ‘later majority’, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s First Christianity. Also, some of the Christian Universalists (e.g. Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh & me) believe in the Complete Annihilation of Satan and his fallen angels in the Lake of Fire but the Hopeful Salvation of Men from it (1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15 ‘on that [Judgment] Day’ as no Christian may be harmed by it in any way, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6, John 5:24) by God’s Mercy as discussed in earlier posts with First Christianity quotes & Scripture.

 

2) First Christianity Believer in Christ Centered Universalism – Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers

 

To quote (Who was he?):

“…Hilary was born at Poitiers either at the end of the 3rd or beginning of the 4th century A.D.[6] His parents were pagans of distinction. He received a good pagan education, which included a high level of Greek. He studied, later on, the Old and New Testament writings, with the result that he abandoned his Neo-Platonism for Christianity, and with his wife and his daughter (traditionally named Saint Abra), was baptized and received into the Church.

The Christians of Poitiers so respected Hilary that about 350 or 353,  they unanimously elected him their bishop. At that time Arianism threatened to overrun the Western Church; Hilary undertook to repel the disruption. … Because Augustine cites part of the commentary on Romans as by “Sanctus Hilarius” it has been ascribed by various critics at different times to almost every known Hilary. …Hilary’s major theological work was the twelve books now known as De Trinitate. This was composed largely during his exile, though perhaps not completed until his return to Gaul in 360. … Hilary is the pre-eminent Latin writer of the 4th century (before Ambrose). Augustine of Hippo called him “the illustrious doctor of the churches”, and his works continued to be highly influential in later centuries. Venantius Fortunatus wrote a vita of Hilary by 550, but few now consider it reliable. More trustworthy are the notices in Saint Jerome (De vir. illus. 100), Sulpicius Severus (Chron. ii. 39-45) and in Hilary’s own writings.[14] Pope Pius IX formally recognized him as Universae Ecclesiae Doctor in 1851. In the Roman calendar of saints, Hilary’s feast day is on 13 January, 14 January in the pre-1970 form of the calendar. The spring terms of the English and Irish Law Courts and Oxford and Dublin Universities are called the Hilary term since they begin on approximately this date.[24] Some consider Saint Hilary of Poitiers the patron saint of lawyers. …” – Wikipedia

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_of_Poitiers

 

Comment: Those who know Church History will easily recognize Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers as being nicknamed the “Athanasius of the West” because this is whom God used in the West to defend &  bring back the Orthodoxy of the Doctrine of Trinity back into the Western Church as Blessed St. Athanasius the Great did likewise in the East. St. Hilary of Poitiers’ infamous Book titled ‘On the Trinity’ Proves this and we quote this Book next to show his Belief/Hope in Christ Centered Universalism clearly.

 

3) Christ Centered Universalism Belief quote by Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers

 

 

  1. i) Commentary on Ezekiel 16:53 – 55

 

“… [Hence a prevalent tone of hopefulness about the future state of the baptized]; even Sodom and Gomorrah, their punishment in history having satisfied the righteousness of God, shall ultimately be saved 359. Yet God has a perfect, immutable goodness of which human goodness, though real, falls infinitely short, because He is steadfast and we are driven by varying impulses 360 …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, 359    Ib. lxviii. 22, based on St. Matt. x. 15. and 360    Ib. lii. 11, 12.)

Source [via infamous Historian Mr. Philip Schaff]:

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.iii.ii.html#fnf_ii.iii.ii-p249.1

 

Comment: Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers is pointing out since even “Sodom and Gomorrah” will eventually be “Saved” after the ‘punishment’ (of Baptism by Fire in the Lake of Fire*), how much more a person who is baptized on earth. This also points that 1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15’s Context is ‘not fallen Christians only’ being “Saved through Fire” in the Lake of Fire but also perhaps the wicked too as St. Hilary points to ‘Sodom’ whom we know suffers the Vengeance of Eternal [Aionion] Fire (Jude 1:7) till they are restored (Ezekiel 16:53 – 55)?

 

 

* The idea that the Lake of Fire refers to a Last Baptism by Fire toward those not baptized by Fire on earth as believers but it must include ‘everyone too eventually’ (Mark 9:49) by which men may be Saved thereafter (as per 1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15) may also be seen in these two ancient orthodox Christian’s quote:

 

  1. Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan

 

‘…Our Saviour has appointed two kinds of resurrection, in accordance with which John says, in the Apocalypse, “Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection”; for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved until the second resurrection, these shall be burnt, until they fulfill their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection; or, if they should not have fulfilled them then, they shall remain still longer in punishment … ‘ – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, First Latin Doctor of the Church (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD) …”

 

Source: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ambrose

 

  1. Blessed St. Gregory Nazianzus

 

This Hope was uttered toward the ‘Novatian Heretics’ as follows:

“… XIX. But these sins were not after Baptism, you will say. Where is your proof? Either prove it — or refrain from condemning; and if there be any doubt, let charity prevail. But Novatus, you say, would not receive those who lapsed in the persecution. What do you mean by this? If they were unrepentant he was right; I too would refuse to receive those who either would not stoop at all or not sufficiently, and who would refuse to make their amendment counterbalance their sin; and when I do receive them, I will assign them their proper place; but if he refused those who wore themselves away with weeping, I will not imitate him. And why should Novatus’s want of charity be a rule for me? He never punished covetousness, which is a second idolatry; but he condemned fornication as though he himself were not flesh and body. What say you? Are we convincing you by these words? Come and stand here on our side, that is, on the side of humanity. Let us magnify the Lord together. Let none of you, even though he has much confidence in himself, dare to say, Touch me not for I am pure, and who is so pure as I? Give us too a share in your brightness. But perhaps we are not convincing you? Then we will weep for you. Let these men then if they will, follow our way, which is Christ’s way; but if they will not, let them go their own. Perhaps in it they will be baptized with Fire, in that last Baptism which is more painful and longer, which devours wood like grass, 1 Corinthians 3:12-19 and consumes the stubble of every evil….” – Blessed St. Gregory Nazianzus, also known as Gregory the Theologian or Gregory Nazianzen, Archbishop of Constantinople, Theologian, Doctor of the Church, Great Hierarch, Cappadocian Father, Ecumenical Teacher (c. 329 AD – c. 390 AD)

Source [ Oration 39, Chapter XIX, Oration on the Holy Lights. The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism.]: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310239.htm

 

  1. ii) Commentary on Romans 11:26 – 32

 

“… 34. When authorities and powers are abolished, His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. The same Apostle tells who are these enemies, As touching the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers’ sake1282. We remember that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; let us remember also that, because they are beloved for the fathers’ sake, they are reserved for the subjection, as the Apostle says, I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, even as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: and this is the covenant firm Me to them, when I have taken away their sins1283. So His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. 35. But we must not forget what follows the subjection, namely, Last of all is death conquered by Him1284. This victory over death is nothing else than the resurrection from the dead: for when the corruption of death is stayed, the quickened and now heavenly nature is made eternal, as it is written, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in strife. O death, where is thy sting? O death, where is thy strife1285? In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. Thus our nature by being merged into the image of the other nature which it receives, becomes subjected through the imposition of a new form. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Points 34 – 35)

 

Source:(via the Infamous Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.v.ii.xi.html

 

 

How did Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers understand the “Subjection of His Enemies”?

 

We shall see next in ‘his own words’.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

iii) Commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28

 

 

“… 31. What that is must be understood in view of this same hope of our faith. We cannot be ignorant that the Lord Jesus Christ rose again from the dead, and sits at the right hand of God, for we have also the witness of the Apostle, According to the working of the strength of His might, which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and made Him to sit at His right hand in the heavenly places above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this world but also in that which is to came, and put all things in subjection under His feet1276. The language of the Apostle, as befits the power of God, speaks of the future as already past: for that which is to be wrought by the completion of time already exists in Christ, in Whom is all fulness, and ‘future’ refers only to the temporal order of the Dispensation, not to a new development. Thus, God has put all things under His feet, though they are still to be subjected. By their subjection, conceived as already past, is expressed the immutable power of Christ: by their subjection, as future, is signified their consummation at the end of the ages as the result of the fulness of time. 32. The meaning of the abolishing of every power which is against Him is not obscure. The prince of the air, the power of spiritual wickedness, shall be delivered to eternal destruction, as Christ says, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which My Father hath prepared for the devil and his angels1277. The abolishing is not the same as the subjecting. To abolish the power of the enemy is to sweep away for ever his prerogative of power, so that by the abolition of his power is brought to an end the rule of his kingdom. Of this the Lord testifies when He says, My kingdom is not of this world1278: as He had once before testified that the ruler of that kingdom is the prince of the world, whose power shall be destroyed by the abolition of the rule of His kingdom1279. A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability. 33. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself. Moreover He shall so subject them to Himself, that God shall subject them to Him. Was the Apostle ignorant, think you, of the force of these words in the Gospel, No one cometh to Me, except the Father draw Him to Me1280which stand side by side with those other words, No one cometh unto the Father but by Me1281: just as in this Epistle Christ subjects His enemies to Himself, yet God subjects them to Him, and He witnesses throughout this, his work of subjection, that God is working in Him? Except through Him there is no approach to the Father, but there is also no approach to Him, unless the Father draw 213us. Understanding Him to be the Son of God, we recognise in Him the true nature of the Father. Hence, when we learn to know the Son, God the Father calls us: when we believe the Son, God the Father receives us; for our recognition and knowledge of the Father is in the Son, Who shews us in Himself God the Father, Who draws us, if we be devout, by His fatherly love into a mutual bond with His Son. So then the Father draws us, when, as the first condition, He is acknowledged Father: but no one comes to the Father except through the Son, because we cannot know the Father, unless faith in the Son is active in us, since we cannot approach the Father in worship, unless we first adore the Son, while if we know the Son, the Father draws us to eternal life and receives us. But each result is the work of the Son, for by the preaching of the Father, Whom the Son preaches, the Father brings us to the Son, and the Son leads us to the Father. The statement of this Mystery was necessary for the more perfect understanding of the present passage, to shew that through the Son the Father draws us and receives us; that we might understand the two aspects, the Son subjecting all to Himself, and the Father subjecting all to Him. Through the birth the nature of God is abiding in the Son, and does that which He Himself does. What He does God does, but what God does in Him, He Himself does: in the sense that where He acts Himself we must believe the Son of God acts; and where God acts, we must perceive the properties of the Father’s nature existing in Him as the Son.  34. When authorities and powers are abolished, His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. The same Apostle tells who are these enemies, As touching the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers’ sake1282. We remember that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; let us remember also that, because they are beloved for the fathers’ sake, they are reserved for the subjection, as the Apostle says, I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, even as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: and this is the covenant firm Me to them, when I have taken away their sins1283. So His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. 35. But we must not forget what follows the subjection, namely, Last of all is death conquered by Him1284. This victory over death is nothing else than the resurrection from the dead: for when the corruption of death is stayed, the quickened and now heavenly nature is made eternal, as it is written, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in strife. O death, where is thy sting? O death, where is thy strife1285? In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. Thus our nature by being merged into the image of the other nature which it receives, becomes subjected through the imposition of a new form. 36. Hence the Apostle, to make his explanation of this Mystery complete, after saying that death is the last enemy to be conquered, adds: But when He saith, All things are put in subjection except Him, Who did subject all things to Him, then must He be subjected to Him, that did subject all things to Him, that God may be all in all1287. The first step of the Mystery is that all things are subjected to Him: then He is subjected to Him, Who subjects all things to Himself. As we are subjected to the glory of the rule of His body, so He also, reigning in the glory of His body, is by the same Mystery in turn subjected to Him, Who subjects all things to Himself. And we are subjected to the glory of His body, that we may share that splendour with which He reigns in the body, since we shall be conformed to His body. 37. Nor are the Gospels silent concerning the glory of His present reigning body. It is written that the Lord said, Verily, I say unto you, there be some of them that stand here, which  214 shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. And it came to pass, after six days Jesus taketh with Him Peter and James and John His brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart. And Jesus was transfigured before them, and His face did shine as the sun, and His garments became as snow.1288 Thus was shewn to the Apostles the glory of the body of Christ coming into His Kingdom: for in the fashion of His glorious Transfiguration, the Lord stood revealed in the splendour of His reigning body. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Points 31 – 37)

 

Source:(via the Infamous Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.v.ii.xi.html

 

 

Conclusion

 

Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers understands that there are two types of ‘Subjection of All things’ to Christ that is ‘Subjection of belief’ (Christians) and ‘Subjection of the Enemies of the Gospel’ (i.e. ‘His Enemies’) the former gets a ‘special reward’ (beyond comparison relating to the Glorious Body of the First Resurrection) while the later gets a transition to be ‘changed to something higher’ (Healed/delivered from punishments). Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers also points clearly that the ‘Subjection of All His Enemies’ (1 Corinthians 15:25) till God becomes ‘All in All’ Creation (1 Corinthians 15:28) which happens in the future in the “ages to come” (Ephesians 2:7) and states that ‘this is the same faith of the First Christians’ as seen in the selected/bolded parts of his quote above for emphasis, to quote:

 

“… 31. What that is must be understood in view of this same hope of our faith. … By their subjection, conceived as already past, is expressed the immutable power of Christ: by their subjection, as future, is signified their consummation at the end of the ages as the result of the fulness of time. … . The abolishing is not the same as the subjecting. … A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability. 33. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself.  … In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Selected part of Points 31 – 37, re-emphasized)

 

 

Please read ‘carefully’ again.

 

 

 

 

Also, please allow me to detail each claim further as I repeat as follows:

 

  1. Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers understands that there are two types of ‘Subjection of All things’ to Christ that is ‘Subjection of belief’ (Christians) and ‘Subjection of the Enemies of the Gospel’ (i.e. ‘His Enemies’)

 

 

“… The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers

 

 

  1. the former gets a ‘special reward’ (beyond comparison relating to the Glorious Body of the First Resurrection)“…The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers

 

 

  1. while the later gets a transition to be ‘changed to something higher’ (Healed/delivered from punishments).

 

“… whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers

 

 

  1. Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers also points clearly that the ‘Subjection of All His Enemies’ (1 Corinthians 15:25) till God becomes ‘All in All’ Creation (1 Corinthians 15:28)

 

“…  The abolishing is not the same as the subjecting. … A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability. 33. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself.  … In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers

 

 

 

  1. which happens in the future in the “ages to come” (Ephesians 2:7)

 

“… By their subjection, conceived as already past, is expressed the immutable power of Christ: by their subjection, as future, is signified their consummation at the end of the ages as the result of the fulness of time. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers

 

 

  1. and states that ‘this is the same faith of the First Christians’

 

“… 31. What that is must be understood in view of this same hope of our faith. …” –  Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers

 

 

4) Am I a liar if I claim boldly that Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers believed in Christ Centered Universalism as demonstrated by his own words prior?

 

Truth is, Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate (who started to only believe in ‘Eternal Hell’ theology somewhere around 395 AD) himself attests in ‘his own words’ that the ‘long dead by then’ Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers was a undeniable Christian Universalist as he explains in his letter below, to quote:

 

 

“… Your third and last question relates to the passage in the same epistle where the apostle in discussing the resurrection, comes to the words: “for he must reign, till he hath put all things under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him that God may be all in all.” [1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28] I am surprised that you have resolved to question me about this passage when that reverend man, Hilary, bishop of Poictiers, has occupied the eleventh book of his treatise against the Arians with a full examination and explanation of it. Yet I may at least say a few words. The chief stumbling-block in the passage is that the Son is said to be subject to the Father. Now which is the more shameful and humiliating, to be subject to the Father (often a mark of loving devotion as in the psalm “truly my soul is subject unto God”) or to be crucified and made the curse of the cross? For “cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.” If Christ then for our sakes was made a curse that He might deliver us from the curse of the law, are you surprised that lie is also for our sakes subject to the Father to make us too subject to Him as He says in the gospel: “No man cometh unto the Father but by me,” and “I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL men UNTO ME.” [John 12:32] Christ then is subject to the Father in the faithful; for ALL BELIEVERS, NAY the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, are accounted MEMBERS of HIS BODY. But in UNBELIEVERS, that is in JEWS, HEATHENS, and HERETICS, He is said to be NOT SUBJECT; for these members of His body are NOT SUBJECT to the FAITH. But in the END of the world when ALL HIS MEMBERS shall SEE CHRIST, that is their own body, reigning, THEY ALSO shall be MADE SUBJECT to Christ, that is to their own body, that the whole of Christ’s body may be subject unto God and the Father, and that God may be ALL in ALL [1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28]. He does not say “that the Father may be all in all” but that “God” may be, a title which properly belongs to the Trinity and may be referred not only to the Father but also to the Son and to the Holy Ghost. His meaning therefore is “that HUMANITY may be SUBJECT to the GODHEAD.” By HUMANITY we here intend not that gentleness and kindness which the Greeks call philanthropy but the WHOLE HUMAN RACE Moreover when he says “that God may be all in all,” it is to be taken in this sense. At present our Lord and Saviour is not all in all, but only a part in each of us. For instance He is wisdom in Solomon, generosity in David, patience in Job, knowledge of things to come in Daniel faith in Peter, zeal in Phinehas and Paul, virginity in John, and other virtues in others. But when the end of all things shall come, then shall He be all in all, for then the saints shall severally possess all the virtues and all will possess Christ in His entirety….” – St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Second Latin Doctor of the Church (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD, Letter LV TO AMANDUS, Point 5, Written about the year 394 A. D.)

Source: http://www.annussacerdotalis.org/clerus/dati/2001-02/17-999999/Lett.html

 

 

Note: Though St. Jerome of the Vulgate began to lean toward Eternal-Hell theology of St. Augustine from 395 AD onward, he clearly reveals in the letter above circa 394 AD, “honestly” (a content which probably is “lost” quoting from St. Hilary of Poictiers’ 11th Book regarding the Mystery of Christ Centered Universalism). Please note also that St. Hilary has been dead for almost “30 plus years” at the time St. Jerome writes this letter proving that St. Hilary is certainly a Christ Centered Universalism believer.

 

Comment: So this Great Saint, Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers who is the main person God used to bring back the Most Holy Doctrine of the Trinity in the West is clearly a Christian Universalist who even believes that ‘Sodom’ can be “Saved” post “Aionion or Eternal Punishment” as discussed in ‘his own words’ in Point 3 above. Interesting, isn’t it?

St. Hilary of Poitiers was never called a heretic by any of his contemporary nor by those after him in Latin Christianity (and his book especially the one titled “On the Trinity” quoted earlier is widely read). St. Hilary even puts forth his arguments in defence of the Most Holy Trinity Doctrine on Christ Centered Universalism grounds as point 3(ii) and 3(iii) prior clearly shows.

St. Augustine of Hippo (the most respected Eternal Hell theologian of all time in Christianity after the apostles) himself does not call St. Hilary of Poitiers a heretic even after studying his work but calls him “the illustrious doctor of the churches”, and Pope Pius IX formally recognized him as Universae Ecclesiae Doctor in 1851 (as Wikipedia records this fact as well) while St. Jerome calls St. Hilary as “that reverend man, Hilary, bishop of Poictiers” whose Eleventh Book (or Book XI ‘On the Trinity’ as we quoted is surely St. Hilary’s authorship) as St. Jerome attests to this too when he added “has occupied the eleventh book of his treatise against the Arians with a full examination and explanation of it” which we saw is nothing else than Christ Centered Universalism Theology/Belief/Hope.

 

 

I end with an interesting question:

Based on the “Anathema” by Second Council of Constantinople, 553 A.D. toward ‘any Universalism’ as some Christians claim, do they now renounce Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers as a ‘Heretic’ too for his clear Christ Centered Universalism Belief?

Is Christ going to Say “I never knew you” to Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers whom Christ Chose to bring back the Most Holy & Most Important Doctrine of Trinity back into Latin Christianity (i.e. the Western Church)?

 

If St. Hilary of Poitiers’ theology of Christ Centered Universalism was wrong and he is still “saved” as per First Christianity’s Testimony till today, shouldn’t those Christian Universalists who err and preach likewise be shown Mercy & be Forgiven too?

Perhaps a particular form of Universalism was condemned at the Council because Orgien’s name was tied up to unbiblical theories of reincarnation & transmigration of souls and the like as  some scholars have argued, to quote:

“… In the first 600 years of Christian history, researchers have identified six main theological schools concerning apokatastasis. Four of them were Universalists, one taught “conditional immortality” and the last taught Eternal hell.[14] Many early church fathers have been quoted as either embracing or hoping for the ultimate reconciliation of God with His creation. Those that did not embrace the teaching, such as Augustine, acknowledged that it was a common enough belief among Christians of the day.[15][16] The concept of a final restoration of all souls particularly had large appeal in the East during the fourth and fifth centuries.[2] … Origen and a form of apocatastasis were condemned in 544 by the Patriarch Mennas of Constantinople and the condemnation was allegedly ratified in 553 by the Fifth Ecumenical Council. … Many heteroclite views became associated with Origen, and the 15 anathemas against him attributed to the council condemn a form of apocatastasis, along with the pre-existence of the soul, animism, a heterodox Christology, and a denial of real and lasting resurrection of the body. Some authorities believe these anathemas belong to an earlier local synod.[19][20][21]. The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia claims that the Fifth Ecumenical Council was contested as being an official and authorized Ecumenical Council, since it was established not by the Pope, but rather by the Emperor, because of the Pope’s resistance to it. The Fifth Ecumenical Council addressed what was called “The Three Chapters”[22] and was against a form of Origenism which had nothing to do with Origen and Origenist views. Popes Vigilius, Pelagius I (556–61), Pelagius II (579–90), and Gregory the Great (590–604) were only aware that the Fifth Council specifically dealt with the Three Chapters and they made no mention of Origenism or Universalism, nor spoke as if they knew of its condemnation, even though Gregory the Great was opposed to the belief of universalism.[2][23] Scholar Richard Bauckham has stated that while universalism appeared “discredited” due to scholarly resistance to Origen’s view, it “seems in doubt” if the Fifth Ecumenical Council specifically endorsed any negative view of it.[2]  …”

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

 

 

In the end, just a Friendly Disagreement Existed – Not a Heretic either Way, to quote:

 

“… This is shown by the early 5th century statements of St. Augustine of Hippo, a most formidable advocate of the endless hell view, admitting that a “great many” [12] Christians saw hell as correctional and temporary, and who considered the matter a mere “friendly controversy.” [13] …”

 

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

 

Summary: A little note in Support of Blessed St. Hilary of Poitiers’ Theology

 

“And He is the propitiation* for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2, KJV)

 

*Propitiation = Also includes the Context of Turning Away or Ending of Wrath in Judgment making this Hope of Mercy Cancelling a Judgment Sentence later by Triumphing over it as Prophesied by the First Christianity Scripture of ‘Apocalypse of Peter’ as a Valid Biblical Hope.

God’s Enemies will be Saved from All Evil Post-Final Judgment and after they Confess to Him (Philippians 2:9 – 11, Isaiah 45:23) Who is Saviour of All eventually (1 Timothy 4:10) as He is the ‘Saviour of All’ Context including ‘His Enemies’ is Echoed in “Bible Scripture” below [yes ‘Wisdom of Solomon Book’ is Scripture in All of Christianity except to some protestants from 1500s onward):

“For he that turned himself toward it was not saved by the thing that he saw, but by Thee, that art the SAVIOUR OF ALL. And in this thou madest Thine enemies confess, that it is thou who deliverest from all evil:” (Wisdom of Solomon 16:7 – 8, KJV Compare with ‘Saviour of All Men especially believers in 1 Timothy 4:10)

 

Source: https://m.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Wisdom-of-Solomon-Chapter-16/

 

P/S: A Direct Conversation Openly with a Christian who thinks that I’m a Heretic

 

Question 1

 

The reason I’m saying this, is why question hell fire, and whether God will cast men there? Jesus himself said it so. The evil in this world is greater than what you precieve to know, if you knew, you would not try to find reason for compassion. Against these vile and wicked beings. One thing I have learned in my my life is that of we cannot trust God’s judgement, we cannot trust God, of we believe somehow we can determine judgement, whether a person deserves hell fire or condemnation, we have placed ourselves as God, knowing what God knows. Why do think I say anything to you at all? Because you’re treading water and swimming in circles, if you wished to be saved, do what is necessary to do, listen to Jesus, make you days about him, but learn his truths. I used to share the same compassion and sentiment for those facing hell fire, but having experienced the things they do to people and to God, I trust God knows how to deal with these things appropriately, and while I don’t want these things to occur, I leave it to God to decide Thier fate, because God knows my heart, and doesn’t my heart come from God? He shares the same sentiment, but sentiment is sentiment and justice is justice and judgement in in his hand to do, according to his glory.

 

Reply 1

 

I did not question hell fire  which makes your accusation unfounded. Also, I do let God decide their fate but I cannot say that eternal Hell was taught unanimously in First Christianity as the write ups & other Bible Verses show. Hence, I keep an open mind without Judging a Final Sentence as 1 Corinthians 4:5 requires. And as usual, I present the evidence and a Christian may hope/believe whichever he feels is right. I don’t condemn any Christian who differs in belief with me.

 

 

Question 2

 

Jesus teaches to not live within the mystery of discovering the truth, but to actually discover the truth. When you look at the work of so many saints in struggling, one thing is clear to me, whomever really had potential in Christ, was decommissioned in some way. Satan is far more cunning and terrible than any other, his ways are terrible and people and beings are very subversive. We are not to look to lesser than Christ Jesus, because Satan wishes to glorify the man, taking our gaze away from Christ’s testimony, which contains all truth and all potential to discover the truth within his teachings. We veer off towards lesser men and their testimony because can we can relate to their struggle, but the real truth is in Jesus’s testimony. This is the true way, yet we are tested by God. The saints who does in Christ, do they not already have their glory from God? And if any Saint is asked about his work, does this Saint not say, I can do nothing on my own accord but God smgoves me strength, glorify God! And of you ask a Saint, what direction should I go in, the Saint always replies, by way of the truth! And so we look no further than to Christ Jesus himself, instead of imperfect men struggling in a world devoid of the light. Jesus said’ while I am here the light is with men, and when he departed thus the light also departed from the earth. Anything we see here is the product of darkness, until he comes again we do not know true light. There is no other direction to God, but it is clear when men hear the voice of reason, by way of the spirit of truth they are dismayed, because they think it is the man, seeking glory for himself, but the man is nothing without his council and his council proves that he is good because he places a man before the light, that that man may see the light and bear witness of that light to others that they may come also. Listen well, and think about who speaks to you, and know this truth and learn from this truth. Because I don’t want to see another man procuse nothing his time, but that he produces something worthy of Christ, that he and others who hear the word may grow from it. Men of old are the same as men of new, and yet our struggles are different, but in the same light revelations come to all who seek, and the gospel is not bound to the book, but bound to men who produce it. Just as the eternal of kingdom expands infinitely outward, so too does faith, from a seed to a tree and a bountiful tree. This must be true about life, that it is abundant and grows outward, never to diminish. If you can’t receive what I am saying to you now, you are lost, and nothing can bring you back into the fold, but if God grants you ears to hear and eyes to discern the truth, he will Lear you rightly, correct your discourse, and give you life.

 

 

Reply 2

 

The exact same reply you wrote above can be said regarding the path you follow and then point to the saints that didn’t follow your view. Also 1 Corinthians 4:5 allows such a faith to “judge nothing before its time” and thus your assertion that ‘Judgment must be in a certain way’ (even if you turned out to be right) does not disqualify other Christians solely based on this.

 

 

Question 3

 

You’re still glorifying the saints and the apostles, we have one master, you are a charlatan.

 

Reply 3

 

Again, another unfounded accusation. I Glorify God Alone and He Alone is my Master. I do not venerate any saint nor pray to them, in case you didn’t realize.

 

For example, the Central Doctrine of the Blessed Trinity is only mysteriously Revealed in Holy Scripture and without these saints (especially the ones I quote from First Christianity), we may not have such a doctrine. In other words, God used these saints to Reveal more clearly regarding the Doctrine of Trinity itself as evidenced in Church History which proves their Pivotal Role in a Doctrine which we all agree.

 

However, I believe that saints are righteous men and thus respecting them has its rewards as per the Verse below:

 

“He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.” (Matthew 10:41, NKJV)

 

I respect even Eternal Hell Saints such as St. Augustine too as I quote him on parts where I agree with his theology too. I do not despise other Christians even if I think that they are inaccurate with their theology because Blessed St. Justin Martyr himself did not toward those who didn’t believe in the chiliasm doctrine as 1 Corinthians 4:5 offers no condemnation if we speculate regarding the ‘future prophecies’ as long as we ‘don’t judge others who differ in which case if we do, each of our theology must be perfect’ (as the phrase “Judge nothing before its time”, regarding things which haven’t come to pass means in 1 Corinthians 4:5) and ‘the measure you judge you will be judged back means’ (in Matthew 7:2 means).

 

Question 4

 

You are pointed in the wrong direction and it’s wrong to do as you do, if you want to be righteous, be righteous, and all men of God know and desire righteousness, despite Satan’s manipulation, those born of the spirit are as such. There is no point in creating a work, if that work does not bear fruit, and you cannot bear fruit without the vine.

 

Reply 4

Is Roman Catholicism considered a fruit of Christ especially with Veneration of Virgin Mary and Prayers to her?

 

My point is simple: The “fruit” Christ Spoke of has nothing to do with “what the Majority Doctrine of the Church turns out to be but it refers to one’s personal life bearing the fruits of the Holy Spirit in Love, Joy, Peace… Etc including Good Works” as easily seen in First Christianity quotes too.

 

Now if your claim that fruit refers to “Which Majority Doctrine survives the Test of Time” is True and that refers to ‘Christ’s quote of fruit with the Vine’, then not only is Eternal Hell Doctrine is the Truth but also the Veneration of Mary or praying to the Saints doctrine must be the ‘Truth which bears the fruit & survives is most believed in Christianity’ because it Survived in the longest period of time and with Roman Catholicism with Eastern Orthodoxy combined having the largest ‘Christian Membership’ even till today, then that’s must be the ultimate Christian Truth.

 

So your argument that ‘Fruit is seen by majority’ as you’re trying to imply that this is the meaning of the ‘Fruit which bears Vine’ proves your greatest Christian adversaries too to be preferred by Lord Jesus Christ to ‘the few people even insignificant in number or impact globally’ as the “real fruit”.

Here’s an Example where the “fruit bearing ones belong to a minority Christians” in the doctrine aspect:

 

The Chiliasm doctrine was rejected by Roman Catholicism and the rest of later Christians but believed on by all First Christianity saints, to quote:

 

“… Millennialism was taught by various earlier writers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, and Apollinaris of Laodicea in a form now called premillennialism.[9] According to religious scholar Rev. Dr. Francis Nigel Lee,[10] “Justin’s ‘Occasional Chiliasm’ sui generis which was strongly anti-pretribulationistic was followed possibly by Pothinus in A.D. 175 and more probably (around 185) by Irenaeus”. … Melito of Sardis is frequently listed as a second century proponent of premillennialism.[12] The support usually given for the supposition is that “Jerome [Comm. on Ezek. 36] and Gennadius [De Dogm. Eccl., Ch. 52] both affirm that he was a decided millenarian.”[13] In the early third century, Hippolytus of Rome … Around 220, there were some similar influences on Tertullian, although only with very important and extremely optimistic (if not perhaps even postmillennial) modifications and implications. On the other hand, “Christian Chiliastic” ideas were indeed advocated in 240 by Commodian; in 250 by the Egyptian Bishop Nepos in his Refutation of Allegorists; in 260 by the almost unknown Coracion; and in 310 by Lactantius. Into the late fourth century, Bishop Ambrose of Milan had millennial leanings (Ambrose of Milan. Book II. On the Belief in the Resurrection, verse 108). Lactantius is the last great literary defender of chiliasm in the early Christian church. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

 

So if Christ Wanted to prove “Truth” by “Majority Doctrine within Christianity”, then these Saints in regard to the aspect of “Chiliasm Doctrine” didn’t bear the right fruit is it?

This is equivalent to saying based on the “Chiliasm Doctrine”, are these Great Saints such as Blessed St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, St. Melito of Sardis, Nepos, Coracion and St. Ambrose of Milan in First Christianity all ‘Charlatans’?

 

 

So, are they Saved or condemned too for teaching this ‘false position’ by your standards?

 

 

Instead of general comments which contradict yourself (because now somehow you seem to refer to fruits as ‘minority doctrine which is believed by you, instead of the majority’), please answer this:

 

Is Chiliasm Doctrine a Charlatan Doctrine?

You must be able to tell yes or no since you claim to be Spirit Led to the Point that you can tell for sure 100% which Doctrine is right and which one is from the Devil, right?

 

If you’re full or right doctrine, how can you not answer a simple yes or no. If you can’t perhaps it’s because ‘you don’t know’, right?

 

So, shouldn’t other Christians still be considered Christians to questions of doctrine of which they don’t know too instead of calling them Devils where even you ‘dare not answer’?

 

Again you have ‘no answer’ there apart from condemning others. I will pray for you as well, may God forgive you & I and keep us safe, Amen.

 

Rule of Faith regarding the ‘Last Things’ ought to be as follows regarding ‘future prophecies’:

 

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.” (1 Corinthians 4:5, NKJV)

 

 

My position is same as Blessed St. Justin Martyr as per 1 Corinthians 4:5 regarding “judge nothing before its time” in the Context of ‘future prophecies’ where I do not condemn any Christian who differs in belief from me, to quote:

 

“… I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chapter 110)

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

 

Even affirming that they are ‘real Christians’ (as Blessed St. Justin Martyr calls such ones as ‘belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians’ even if ‘they think otherwise’) if they ‘Believe the events that have already took place such as the Birth, Death and Resurrection of Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ & a belief in the Holy Trinity’ and in that they ‘Obey especially the Love your fellow men Commands by doing Good Works & Charity Works abundantly’ (James 2:14 – 17, James 2:24) as these two are the Greatest Commandments (Matthew 22:36 – 40) and that there are ‘no commandments greater than these’ (Mark 12:28 – 31) as Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8) by which even if we are wrong we may  ‘not be condemned’ (Luke 7:47).

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

I rest my case. Peace to You. All Glory to the Most Blessed Trinity Always!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First Christianity Hope for Good non-Christians and Beyond?

 

“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:24, NKJV)

 

“… Also, by this which this servant dared to say, “Thou reapest where thou sowedst not,” we understand that the Lord accepts the good life of the Gentiles and of the Philosophers. …” –  Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD)

 

Source [ Patristic Bible Commentary, Catena Aurea, Matthew 25:14 – 30, P. 853 ]:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/matthew-commentary/catena-aurea-on-matthew/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6/chapter-7/chapter-8/chapter-9/chapter-10/chapter-11/chapter-12/chapter-13/chapter-14/chapter-15/chapter-16/chapter-17/chapter-18/chapter-19/chapter-20/chapter-21/chapter-22/chapter-23/chapter-24/chapter-25

 

Note: Whether Blessed St. Jerome agrees or not to his quote above, he may be reiterating what other Great Christians from Antiquity have passed on to him regarding such exegesis.

 

How is such a Hope Possible Biblically?

 

Example: Mystery of Jezreel

 

Toward the ‘non Vessels of Mercy’ (among ‘those who are not My People’) on ‘that Day’

 

Bible Verses:

 

“… 22The earth shall answer

With grain,

With new wine,

And with oil;

They shall answer Jezreel.

23Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,

And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;

Then I will say to those who were not My people,

‘You are My people!’

And they shall say, ‘You are my God!’” (Hosea 2:22 – 23, NKJV)

 

The phrase “I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy” in Verse above seems to echo a Mercy toward ‘non-Vessels of Mercy’ eventually as Mercy Triumphs over Judgment in the End (James 2:13) which is promised to all in “unbelief” or “disobedient” too eventually as Romans 11:30 – 32 concludes regarding God’s Judgment.

 

The idea is that an Eternal Hell Sentence can be Cancelled by God eventually by His Mercy into the ages to come was a prevalent  idea in First Christianity as we shall see in more quotes next.

 

Example: Please note ‘carefully’ that the Illustrious Saint below from First Christianity quotes Romans 11:32’s ‘Mercy to All’ to include ‘All His Enemies too’ (Romans 11:30 – 31) because the ‘Election of God toward these enemies as beloved’ cannot be Revoked (Romans 11:28) and so after these Enemies are Subjected by Christ Eventually (1 Corinthians 15:25), “life Immortal follows” to them (implied below), to quote:

 

“… When authorities and powers are abolished, His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. The same Apostle tells who are these enemies, As touching the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers’ sake . We remember that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; let us remember also that, because they are beloved for the fathers’ sake, they are reserved for the subjection, as the Apostle says, I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, even as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: and this is the covenant firm Me to them, when I have taken away their sins . So His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. But we must not forget what follows the subjection, namely, Last of all is death conquered by Him 1284 . This victory over death is nothing else than the resurrection from the dead: for when the corruption of death is stayed, the quickened and now heavenly nature is made eternal, as it is written, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in strife. O death, where is thy sting? O death, where is thy strife ? In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows…” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Points 34 – 35, Page 481**)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/StHilaryOfPoitiersSelectWorks/St%20Hilary%20of%20Poitiers%20Select%20Works_djvu.txt

 

**Book Titled: ST. HILARY OF POITIERS – SELECT WORKS by THE REV. E. W. WATSON, M.A. WARDEN OF THE SOCIETY OF ST. ANDREW, SALISBURY, THE REV. L. PULLAN, M.A. FELLOW OF ST. JOHN’S COLLEGE, OXFORD, AND OTHERS.

 

Thus the Chiliasm or Millennial View can take Matthew 25 to understand it as follows:

 

Matthew 25:1 – 13 = First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, Luke 20:35 – 36)

 

Matthew 25:14 – 30 = 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:7 – 10, Isaiah 65:20)

 

Matthew 25:31 – 46 = Second Resurrection and Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 – 15, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 – 29)

 

 

Two Badges of righteous being Saved is clearly implied by Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons’ remaining writings who is a respected saint with no hint of prayer to Mary nor any Roman Catholic errors in early Christianity as discussed in detail in post in link below:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159309319317784

 

Please note that  St. Irenaeous’ quotes imply that “all the Christians are in the First Resurrection” during an early trumpet (i.e. the ‘thirty, sixty & hundredfold fruit of Matthew 13:8’ after which follows the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ which ends in Judgment Day at the “last trumpet” which has ‘a second badge of righteous toward those who did good (works)’ as John 5:28 – 29 is quoted to refer to this Second Badge of righteous during the Second resurrection at this latter time by St. Irenaeous.

 

How the early church deviated from this First Christianity’s Chiliasm Doctrine (which was even believed by Blessed St. Justin Martyr who is greatly honoured even in Protestant circles as he too like St. Irenaeous has “no” Mary veneration quotes of any kind either) is discussed in post below with detail & proof quotes too:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159252192652784

 

The First Resurrection may be seen as the “hour now is” while the Second Resurrection may be seen as the “hour is coming” in our Most Blessed Lord’s quote in John 5:25 to “parabolically” refer to this Two Resurrections of the “Righteous” on the “Last Day” (John 6:40) which is the “Sabbath Day” (Hebrews 4:9) denoting the 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 – 6).

 

Please note also that this 1000 years Reign of the First Resurrection is NOT participated by any non-Christians but Christians only as the rest are rejected which is Spoken of in Verses such as Matthew 7:20 – 23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13  – 18 which is commonly taught as ‘rapture theory’ today (some similar but different too in some aspects). The post below explains the “I never knew you Mystery” likewise:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159236011247784:0

 

There are three types of men, i.e. the righteous, the sinners and the wicked of which  some of the sinners may have a hope to be saved during the Second Resurrection as discussed in posts below:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159290576442784

 

His Great Mercy may especially be extended to those unbelievers who were kind to the poor as this posts discusses this aspect further:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159230340417784

 

The idea of non-Elect Salvation being possible has its roots in Scripture of 1 Peter 3:18 – 19 too as post below discusses it with First Christianity quotes as well:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159167931442784

 

and

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159154608822784:0

 

A Special Mercy may be reserved for both the Poor and those who are kind to them as Christ’s Parable of the Marriage Feast may imply as this is discussed in post below:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159357218232784

 

Bible Verses Prophesying that Christ Saves in the Spirit World itself as 1 Peter 3:18 – 19 may imply based on the ‘believing after seeing the Risen Christ, a less blessed hope’ (John 6:40, John 20:28 – 29 in Principle too) is discussed in post below:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159186867567784

 

This manner of Exegesis of Holy Scripture to understand it in this Way is clearly seen in the Christian Beliefs of this undisputed very important Modern Christian Saint of India, namely Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh as Christ may have Revealed thus to him Visions by His Grace which is discussed in post below:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159143902292784

 

Also the Fires of Hell eventually having Purifying effects and/or is not Literal may also be seen with these authoritative First Christianity saints:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159077838117784

 

The practice of early Christians to pray for both the righteous and non-righteous dead also strengthens this non-Elect Salvation to some even in Hades now  as discussed in posts below:

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159065876442784

 

and

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10158999548312784

 

This Hope of the ‘non-Elect Salvation’ is very clear especially in the First Christianity Scripture of the ‘Shepherd of Hermas Writing’ even toward “the unbaptized” which is discussed in post below (the Shepherd of Hermas Writing is still Scripture/Truth Level in both Roman Catholicism & Eastern Orthodoxy):

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10158997945667784:0

 

The First Resurrection is the “Elect’s Salvation” while any Salvation by His Mercy during the Second Resurrection may thus be seen as the “non-Elect Salvation” which is evidenced by First Christianity Writing such as the Shepherd of Hermas as well as Apocalypse of Peter which are both counted as “Inspired” in the First Bibles of Christianity such as the Murartorian/Roman Canon in the West and the Codex Claromontanus in the East which is discussed further in the free downloadable pdf book in link below (too many details & historical quotes to be listed here):

 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Blil3VpkHptu79c6XCay_C-r-sKd3iTw/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

More related Reading:

 

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/christ-centered-universalism-mystery-in-first-christianity/amp

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can we be called Christians with Error in Doctrine?

 

When we speak of idealism, yes only “true Love” is compatible with “true faith” which is not mixed with “errors”. Anyway, which Christian dares to say that ‘he believes with no Doctrinal Error’?

Now, we know of Christians caught up in many errors but I believe that Christians can be Saved despite that but which Christian and where the threshold is entirely depends on God Alone (Romans 9:15).

Here are two famous First Christianity examples solidifying this Claim:

  1. i) This quote in full Reveals which part of Theology may be speculated vs which part should not be speculated with as that may be Dangerous, please consider:

“… Attack the silence of Pythagoras,(a) and the Orphic beans, and the novel brag about “The Master said.” Attack the ideas of Plato,(b) and the transmigrations and courses of our souls, and the reminiscences, and the unlovely loves of the soul for lovely bodies. Attack the atheism of Epicurus,(g) and his atoms, and his unphilosophic pleasure; or Aristotle’s petty Providence, and his artificial system, and his discourses about the mortality of the soul, and the humanitarianism of his doctrine. Attack the superciliousness of the Stoa,(d) or the greed and vulgarity of the Cynic.(e) Attack the “Void and Full” (what nonsense), and all the details about the gods and the sacrifices and the idols and demons, whether beneficent or malignant, and all the tricks that people play with divination, evoking of gods, or of souls, and the power of the stars. And if these things seem to thee unworthy of discussion as petty and already often confuted, and thou wilt keep to thy line, and seek the satisfaction of thy ambition in it; then here too I will provide thee with broad paths. Philosophize about the world or worlds; about matter; about soul; about natures endowed with reason, good or bad; about resurrection, about judgment, about reward, or the Sufferings of Christ. For in these subjects to hit the mark is not useless, and to miss it is not dangerous. But with God we shall have converse, in this life only in a small degree; but a little later, it may be, more perfectly, in the Same, our Lord Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory for ever. Amen. …” – Blessed St. Gregory Nazianzus, also known as Gregory the Theologian or Gregory Nazianzen, Archbishop of Constantinople, Theologian, Doctor of the Church, Great Hierarch, one of the Three Holy Hirearchs, Cappadocian Father, Ecumenical Teacher (c. 329 AD – c. 390 AD)

Source: [Oration XXVII. THE FIRST THEOLOGICAL ORATION. A PRELIMINARY DISCOURSE AGAINST THE EUNOMIANS, Point IX]

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/five-theological-orations-11646

Note: the Words “World or Worlds” may actually be “Aeon or Aeons” in Koine Greek.

  1. ii) My bet is on the “Millennialism” or “Chiliasm” Doctrine being True and I don’t condemn Christians who don’t believe in it because even Blessed St. Justin Martyr himself called those Christians teaching this ‘later false position’ as per Blessed Origen/Eusebius/ or even St. Andrew/ St.Augustine/ St.Jerome all who came in later are still “pure and pious faith” though they may have erred in this area:

“… I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. …” – Blessed St. Justin Martyr (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chapter 110)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

Blessed St. Justin Martyr affirms that this is not his opinion but is held by “right-minded Christians on all points” and that ‘All those who believe in Christ are in the First Resurrection’, to quote:

“… But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: ‘For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create’…For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ is connected with this subject [2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4]. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10]; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place [Revelation 20:11 – 15]. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36] …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, CHAPTER LXXXI)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

 

Conclusion

So, as we see above, neither did  Blessed St. Gregory Nazianzus nor did Blessed St. Justin Martyr enforce the “right doctrine” which they ‘know for themselves is Truth’ toward Christians whom they ‘know may not be believing the actual Truth’ but please also note that they are careful enough to ‘not’ despise these Christians as ‘heretics’ on account of differences regarding these doctrines.

This may be the “Judge Nothing before its time type of Faith” in regards to “future prophecies Context” regarding “Judgment Day Context” where such leeway is allowed by Scripture as follows:

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.” (1 Corinthians 4:5, NKJV)

The Bible Verse above in regards to ‘Judge nothing before its Time’ instructs us to ‘not fix any results of Judgment on anyone’ type of Faith and hence it doesn’t matter what you believe about the “Results” of Judgment except that you ‘believe in God’s Judgment’ (as He Alone makes the Choice, Romans 9:15).

Yes, Believing in Eternal Hell, Christ Centered Universalism or Annihilation, i.e. speculating on the Topic of “Judgment” will not save anyone nor will it condemn them (but may make a difference in “rewards” as Blessed St. Gregory Nazianzus’ quote has shown prior).

A related discussion may be continued here (next post):

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159362659707784

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

Fight against the Unity of the Church or Walk away?

 

The Way of Agape – Who is right in the Picture? Sometimes both can be right but which approach is more “Perfect”?

 

“But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way [of Agape, Love of God]. … And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. ” – The Wise and Gifted Blessed St. Paul the Apostle (1 Corinthians 12:31, 1 Corinthians 13:13, NKJV)

Is Truth more Important than the Unity of the Majority of the Church?

“And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love [Agape].” – The Wise and Gifted St. Paul the Apostle (1 Corinthians 13:13, NKJV)

Love of God (“Agape”) > Faith. Please let that sink in.

The Love of God or ‘Agape’ Attitude (1 Corinthians 13) ranks higher than even Truth or Faith itself as per Verse above, to quote:

 

“… Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love? Let him declare, “If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever you desire, and I will do whatever the majority commands; only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it.” He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him. For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof.” These things they who live a godly life, that is never to be repented of, both have done and always will do. … ” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement Chapter 54)

Source [CHAPTER 54 — HE WHO IS FULL OF LOVE WILL INCUR EVERY LOSS, THAT PEACE MAY BE RESTORED TO THE CHURCH]:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

This is the main reason why ‘we don’t believe in forming our own church even if we are right’ but as Blessed St. Clement of Rome commands in his apostolic authority, “… I will do whatever the majority commands …” even if it includes being kicked out of the church, i.e. “… If on my account sedition and disagreement and schisms have arisen, I will depart, I will go away whithersoever you desire …” as long as the Majority of Christians is happy [i.e. “… only let the flock of Christ live on terms of peace with the presbyters set over it …”] & this is not in reference of a heretic being put off from a Church but is referring to a True Christian as “… These things they who live a godly life, that is never to be repented of, both have done and always will do …” because these belong to “… Who then among you is noble-minded? who compassionate? who full of love? …” where their reward of leaving Church is not eternal hell but amazingly, “… He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; and every place will welcome him …” . Are we behaving in such a manner or forming Churches in every corner causing Schisms after Schisms?

 

Are the leaders who form schisms better than St. Clement of Rome?

 

Please notice carefully that St. Clement of Rome clearly points that the ‘separated Godly believer from the Church’ did NOT necessarily follow ‘the majority Church’s doctrine’ as the phrase “… These things they who live a godly life, that is never to be repented of …” especially the line ” … never to be repented of …” means as ‘they live a godly life’ (stated first). In other words, he/she separates themselves out of the Church if the majority is wrong but never ‘repents of his godliness’ but in other aspects keeps with the ‘demand of the majority of the church’ even if the Church may be in error for the Sake of Love of God (“Agape”).

 

The Reward?

 

“… He that acts thus shall procure to himself great glory in the Lord; …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does see the Kingdom of God mean?

 

Bible Verse:

 

“But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 9:29, NKJV)

 

Explanation:

 

“… 37. Nor are the Gospels silent concerning the glory of His present reigning body. It is written that the Lord said, Verily, I say unto you, there be some of them that stand here, which 214 shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. And it came to pass, after six days Jesus taketh with Him Peter and James and John His brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart. And Jesus was transfigured before them, and His face did shine as the sun, and His garments became as snow.1288 Thus was shewn to the Apostles the glory of the body of Christ coming into His Kingdom: for in the fashion of His glorious Transfiguration, the Lord stood revealed in the splendour of His reigning body. …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Point 37)

 

Source:(via Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.v.ii.xi.html

 

A More detailed explanation may be read in link above, for example:

 

“… 32. The meaning of the abolishing of every power which is against Him is not obscure. The prince of the air, the power of spiritual wickedness, shall be delivered to eternal destruction, as Christ says, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which My Father hath prepared for the devil and his angels1277. The abolishing is not the same as the subjecting. To abolish the power of the enemy is to sweep away for ever his prerogative of power, so that by the abolition of his power is brought to an end the rule of his kingdom. Of this the Lord testifies when He says, My kingdom is not of this world1278: as He had once before testified that the ruler of that kingdom is the prince of the world, whose power shall be destroyed by the abolition of the rule of His kingdom1279. A subjection, on the other hand, which implies obedience and allegiance, is a proof of submission and mutability.

 

  1. So when their authority is abolished, His enemies shall be subjected: and so subjected, that He shall subject them to Himself. Moreover He shall so subject them to Himself, that God shall subject them to Him. Was the Apostle ignorant, think you, of the force of these words in the Gospel, No one cometh to Me, except the Father draw Him to Me1280which stand side by side with those other words, No one cometh unto the Father but by Me1281: just as in this Epistle Christ subjects His enemies to Himself, yet God subjects them to Him, and He witnesses throughout this, his work of subjection, that God is working in Him? Except through Him there is no approach to the Father, but there is also no approach to Him, unless the Father draw 213us. Understanding Him to be the Son of God, we recognise in Him the true nature of the Father. Hence, when we learn to know the Son, God the Father calls us: when we believe the Son, God the Father receives us; for our recognition and knowledge of the Father is in the Son, Who shews us in Himself God the Father, Who draws us, if we be devout, by His fatherly love into a mutual bond with His Son. So then the Father draws us, when, as the first condition, He is acknowledged Father: but no one comes to the Father except through the Son, because we cannot know the Father, unless faith in the Son is active in us, since we cannot approach the Father in worship, unless we first adore the Son, while if we know the Son, the Father draws us to eternal life and receives us. But each result is the work of the Son, for by the preaching of the Father, Whom the Son preaches, the Father brings us to the Son, and the Son leads us to the Father. The statement of this Mystery was necessary for the more perfect understanding of the present passage, to shew that through the Son the Father draws us and receives us; that we might understand the two aspects, the Son subjecting all to Himself, and the Father subjecting all to Him. Through the birth the nature of God is abiding in the Son, and does that which He Himself does. What He does God does, but what God does in Him, He Himself does: in the sense that where He acts Himself we must believe the Son of God acts; and where God acts, we must perceive the properties of the Father’s nature existing in Him as the Son.

 

  1. When authorities and powers are abolished, His enemies shall be subjected under His feet. The same Apostle tells who are these enemies, As touching the Gospel they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers’ sake1282. We remember that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; let us remember also that, because they are beloved for the fathers’ sake, they are reserved for the subjection, as the Apostle says, I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, even as it is written, There shall come out of Sion a Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: and this is the covenant firm Me to them, when I have taken away their sins1283. So His enemies shall be subjected under His feet.

 

  1. But we must not forget what follows the subjection, namely, Last of all is death conquered by Him1284. This victory over death is nothing else than the resurrection from the dead: for when the corruption of death is stayed, the quickened and now heavenly nature is made eternal, as it is written, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in strife. O death, where is thy sting? O death, where is thy strife1285? In the subjection of His enemies death is conquered; and, death conquered, life immortal follows. The Apostle tells us also of the special reward attained by this subjection which is made perfect by the subjection of belief: Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the works of His power, whereby He is able to subject all things to Himself1286. There is then another subjection, which consists in a transition from one nature to another, for our nature ceases, so far as its present character is concerned, and is subjected to Him, into Whose form it passes. But by ‘ceasing’ is implied not an end of being, but a promotion into something higher. Thus our nature by being merged into the image of the other nature which it receives, becomes subjected through the imposition of a new form.

 

  1. Hence the Apostle, to make his explanation of this Mystery complete, after saying that death is the last enemy to be conquered, adds: But when He saith, All things are put in subjection except Him, Who did subject all things to Him, then must He be subjected to Him, that did subject all things to Him, that God may be all in all1287. The first step of the Mystery is that all things are subjected to Him: then He is subjected to Him, Who subjects all things to Himself. As we are subjected to the glory of the rule of His body, so He also, reigning in the glory of His body, is by the same Mystery in turn subjected to Him, Who subjects all things to Himself. And we are subjected to the glory of His body, that we may share that splendour with which He reigns in the body, since we shall be conformed to His body.

 

  1. Nor are the Gospels silent concerning the glory of His present reigning body. It is written that the Lord said, Verily, I say unto you, there be some of them that stand here, which

214 shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. And it came to pass, after six days Jesus taketh with Him Peter and James and John His brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart. And Jesus was transfigured before them, and His face did shine as the sun, and His garments became as snow.1288 Thus was shewn to the Apostles the glory of the body of Christ coming into His Kingdom: for in the fashion of His glorious Transfiguration, the Lord stood revealed in the splendour of His reigning body. …” – Blessed St. Hilary of Poictiers, the “Athanasius of the West”, Doctor of the Church, The Champion of Trinity in the West (c. 310 AD – c. 368 AD, Book XI ‘On the Trinity’, Points 32 – 37)

 

Source:(via Historian Mr. Philip Schaff):

 

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.ii.v.ii.xi.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P/S 57: Born Again Mystery in First Christianity

“… But in the faith of the Church one and the same is both Son of God the Father and Son of David. For the mystery of the Incarnation of God is the salvation of the whole of creation, according to that which is written: “That without God He should taste death for every man;” that is, that every creature might be redeemed without any suffering at the price of the blood of the Lord’s Divinity, as it stands elsewhere: “Every creature shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption.” …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, First Latin Doctor of the Church (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: Selected Works and Letters, Book V, Chapter 8, Point 105, Page 703)

 

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

I repeat the quote above with Emphasis:

 

“… But in the FAITH of the CHURCH ONE and the same is both Son of God the Father and Son of David. For the MYSTERY of the INCARNATION of God is the SALVATION of the WHOLE of CREATION, according to that which is WRITTEN: “That without God He should taste death for EVERY MAN;” that is, that EVERY CREATURE might be REDEEMED without any suffering at the price of the blood of the Lord’s Divinity, as it stands elsewhere: “EVERY CREATURE shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE of CORRUPTION [of Sin, Romans 8:21 – 22].” …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, First Latin Doctor of the Church (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD)

 

Did St. Ambrose really refer to “All Creation” in Romans 8:21 – 22?

 

Yes, even in Mark 16:15 it is “all creation” in the Context of ‘nothing that was made by Him is excluded’ from His Incarnation which makes All [Created] things New eventually (Revelation 21:8), to quote:

 

“… We have yet to confute another blasphemy, and to show that the Son of God is not a created being. Herein is the quickening word that we read as our help, for we have heard the passage read where the Lord saith: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to all creation.” [Mark 16:15] He Who saith “ALL CREATION ” EXCEPTS NOTHING. How, then, do they stand who call Christ a “creature”? If He were a creature, could He have commanded that the Gospel should be preached to Himself? It is not, therefore, a creature, but the Creator, Who commits to His disciples the work of teaching created beings. Christ, then, is no created being; for “created beings are,” as the Apostle hath said, “given over to vanity.” Is Christ given over unto vanity? Again, “creation” — according to the same Apostle — “groans and travails together even until now.” [Romans 8:21 – 22] What, then? Doth Christ take any part in this groaning and travailing — He Who hath set us miserable mourners free from death? “Creation,” saith the Apostle, “shall be set free from the slavery of corruption.” [Romans 8:21 – 22] We see, then, that between creation and its Lord there is a vast difference for creation is enslaved, but “the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Who was it that led first into this error, of declaring Him Who created and made all things to be a creature? Did the Lord, I would ask, create Himself? We read that “all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made” ….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, First Latin Doctor of the Church (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: Selected Works and Letters, Exposition of the Christian Faith Book I, Chapter 14, Points 86 – 88, Pages 519 – 520)

 

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

Comment:

The phrase “all creation” (exists in Romans 8:21 – 22) which is Promised to be ‘set free into the Liberty (from corruption/sin into sinlessness)’ or being “Born Again eventually as the Original Koine Greek Phrase implies this Birth Pangs Pain” as this aspect of the Christian Salvation by Christ is “shared” to “all created things or every creature” which is “all that was made” as St. Ambrose’s Quotes prior and now agree Perfectly to this Context which is what is literally Written in these quoted Bible Verses too.

 

Please note St. Ambrose’s quote carefully Proving that this is what he understood too, in his own words ‘… He Who saith “ALL CREATION ” EXCEPTS NOTHING. …’ (from St. Ambrose’s 2nd quote above) which literally means that ‘nothing among all created things is excluded’ from Lord Jesus Christ’s Redemption to Set it free from Sin to be eventually without Suffering anymore, in his words “… EVERY CREATURE might be REDEEMED without any suffering at the price of the blood of the Lord’s Divinity…” which is understood as Freedom into the Glorious Liberty (Given first to, of) the sons of God (Romans 8:19 -22, Christians) or in St. Ambrose’s own words, ‘… “EVERY CREATURE shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE of CORRUPTION”…’ (from St. Ambrose’s 1st quote above).

 

‘For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now’ = being ‘Born Again’ for example the ‘soul made new’ after being destroyed in Gehenna (in the Lake of Fire) for some is part of the Process as Christ’s Making them Alive applies to All as the Common Salvation Promised toward the Whole Human Race eventually, to quote:

 

“… … 6. Shall not God much more spare His own creatures, that they be not led astray from Him and serve things of nought? especially since such going ASTRAY proves the CAUSE of THEIR RUIN and UNDOING, and since it was UNFITTING that THEY should PERISH which had once been PARTAKERS of GOD’S IMAGE. 7. What then was GOD to DO? or what was to be done SAVE the RENEWING of THAT WHICH WAS in God’s image, so that by it MEN might ONCE MORE be able to know Him? But how could this have come to pass save by the presence of the very Image of God, our Lord Jesus Christ? For by men’s means it was impossible, since they are but made after an image; nor by angels either, for not even they are (God’s) images. Whence the Word of God came in His own person, that, as He was the Image of the Father, He might be able to CREATE AFRESH the MAN after the IMAGE. 8. But, again, it could not else have taken place had NOT DEATH and CORRUPTION been DONE AWAY. 9. Whence He took, in natural fitness, a mortal body, that while DEATH might in it be once for all done away, MEN MADE after His Image might ONCE MORE be RENEWED. None other then was sufficient for this need, save the Image of the Father… in the same way also the most holy Son of the Father, being the Image of the Father, came to our region to RENEW MAN once made in His likeness, and find him, as one lost, by the remission of sins; as He says Himself in the Gospels: “I came238 to FIND and to SAVE the LOST.” Whence He said to the Jews also: “Except239 a man be BORN AGAIN,” not meaning, 44as they thought, birth from woman, but speaking of the SOUL BORN and CREATED ANEW in the likeness of God’s image. … ” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD)

(Quotes above – Section 13.6 – 9, Point 14.2, in Consecutive-Order of Context from the ‘On the Incarnation’ Book)

Section 13

https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204/npnf204.vii.ii.xiii.html

Section 14

 

https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204/npnf204.vii.ii.xiv.html

 

All Creation = the Whole Creation

 

Here’s a Modern Reliable Christian Mystic, the late Sadhu Sundar Singh Testifying to this Same First Christianity Truth, to quote:

“… THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD’S LOVE – Then another of the saints said, “All the inhabitants of heaven know that God is Love, but it had been hidden from all eternity that His love is so wonderful that He would become man to save sinners, and for their cleansing would die on the Cross. He suffered thus that He might save men, and all creation, which is in subjection to vanity. Thus God, in becoming man, has shown His heart to His children, but had any other means been used His infinite love would have remained forever hidden. “Now the whole creation, with earnest expectation, awaits the manifestation of the sons of God, when they shall be again restored and glorified. But, at present, they, and all creation, will remain groaning and travailing till this new creation comes to pass. And those also who have been born again groan within themselves, waiting for the redemption of the body; and the time approaches when the whole creation, being obedient to God in all things, will be freed from corruption, and from this vanity forever. Then will it remain eternally happy in God, and will fulfill in itself the purpose for which it was created. Then God will be all in all” (Rom. 8:18-23) ….” – Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh (disappeared in 1929)

Source: https://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

 

Conclusion

 

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot SEE the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3, NASB)

 

“… 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall SEE the kingdom of God, …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

So, SEEing His Kingdom is ONLY for those being BORN AGAIN (John 3:3). The Shepherd of Hermas implies that the WICKED will SEE His Kingdom and hence MUST be BORN AGAIN too (15[92]:3) and this is Proven Irrefutably in Verse below where being BORN AGAIN (Romans 8:20 – 21) where this aspect of the Sons of God, (His Elect – Romans 8:19) is SHARED by ALL CREATION eventually (Romans 8:22) but they will not enter into it being on the “outside” regions only.

 

Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens is discussed further with proof quotes in link below:

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/christ-centered-universalism-mystery-in-first-christianity/amp

 

Note: The ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Writing is accepted till today in either Roman Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy just that one interprets the meaning of its contents differently (that’s debatable). Last but not least to be able to “enter” into the “Kingdom of God” (please take note carefully), the Bible Verse below Speaks the Truth that one has to ‘be Born Again in both Water and Spirit’ (Signifying both a Baptism in Water and in the Holy Spirit – which is a different phrase from John 3:3 earlier) and thus applies to ‘Christians only’, Verse:

 

“5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is BORN of WATER and the SPIRIT, he cannot ENTER the KINGDOM of GOD.” (John 3:5, NKJV)

This distinction to understand John 3:3 and John 3:5 distinctly like that accurately is found within the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture of First Christianity as follows too likewise which echoes a hope for ‘some good non-Christians of the past probably who had never heard of the Gospel but led pure lives being Born both of the Water and Spirit in the Spirit World after the Apostles Descended to Preach there upon their death (“sleep”)’ as parabolically described below:

 

“… 15[92]:6 “Because these first,” saith he, “bore these spirits, and they never separated the one from the other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits abode with them till they fell asleep; and if they had not had these spirits with them, they would not have been found useful for the building of this tower.” 15[92]:1 “Show me still further, Sir,” say I. “What desirest thou to know besides?” saith he. “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the stones come up from the deep, and wherefore were they placed into the building, though they bore these spirits?” 15[92]:2 “It was necessary for them,” saith he, “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life. 15[92]:3 So these likewise that had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. For before a man,” saith he, “has borne the name of [the Son of] God, he is dead; but when he has received the seal, he layeth aside his deadness, and resumeth life. 15[92]:4 The seal then is the water: so they go down into the water dead, and they come up alive. “thus to them also this seal was preached, and they availed themselves of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.” 15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. 15[92]:6 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive. 15[92]:7 So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. For this cause also they came up with them, and were fitted with them into the building of the tower and were builded with them, without being shaped; for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal. Thou hast then the interpretation of these things also.” “I have, Sir,” say I. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spirit World Mystery

 

Question / Statement

 

There is no afterlife or spirit world repentance.

 

Reply

 

Generally yes.

 

Post Judgment repentance perhaps as per 1 Peter 3:18 – 19, 1 Peter 4:5 – 6, and Psalm 107:10 – 16’s “Shadow of Death” may refer to ‘Salvation from Hell’ literally as both God and Job called that exact phrase “Shadow of Death” (in Job 38:17 and Job 10:18 – 22) to refer to the ‘Spirit World’ (or Hades/Hell now) Context. Perhaps not all of them get such a chance now to repent there as the Story of the rich man and Lazarus Reveals or we may note that the “impossibilities” such as “no one can cross the chasm” in that Story was True due to Christ Hasn’t Died nor Resurrected yet making it possible now as 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 toward the once disobedient spirits in prison from those who rejected the preaching of repentance on earth by Noah were finally Saved by Christ as even early Church Leaders have Testified likewise.

 

Regarding repentance in Gehenna / Lake of Fire, 1 Corinthians 3:15 Speaks of Saved by Fire which must refer to the “Lake of Fire” simply because it is on “that Day” or “Judgment Day” onward (as 1 Corinthians 13:3 means) and ‘no Christian is burnt or harmed by that Second Death Fire’ (Revelation 20:4 – 6, John 5:24) who are already perfected 1000 years earlier (Revelation 20:6).

 

However repenting there or saved in the Spirit World accounts for a “non-elect” Salvation outside of the “Heavens, Paradise and New Jerusalem City” Salvation (perhaps on the New Earth or other outside Regions) as discussed in detail at website below with First Christianity quotes:

 

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/first-christianity-hope-for-good-non-christians-and-beyond/amp

 

Please notice that this way of viewing Holy Scripture is all Sola Scriptura too.

 

Sometimes Prophets in the Bible Speak on behalf of others as Psalm 86:13 means literally since Sheol (in Hebrew) = Hades (Biblical Koine Greek) = Hell now as Blessed Patriarch King David was not in Sheol when he wrote that Verse. Even if Psalm 86:13 doesn’t refer to the Spirit World, it doesn’t matter as the “Shadow of Death” Verses prior are independent of it.

 

For example, Psalm 16:10 is quoted in the New Testament where the phrase “my Soul” refers not to the “psalmist’s soul” but “Christ’s Soul” as Acts 2:27 Reveals which refers to the Context of 1 Peter 3:18 – 19 likewise to be true too literally.

 

I do not tell you what to believe but I point to you what the possibilities are within Holy Scripture and each decides his/her faith as I don’t think that any Christian will be penalized for believing either way regarding “future prophecies” especially toward those that relate to “afterlife Judgment” as the phrase “Judge nothing before its time” refers to this Context in 1 Corinthians 4:5.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perfect Christian Theology Myth

 

Question

It’s because they talk as the world, that’s why the world hears them.The Scripture says:

 

1 John 4:5-6 KJV

  1. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
  2. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

Marvel not my friend. Read the Scriptures.

 

Reply

 

Perhaps God is more Merciful than we think. Also, the Bible has so many other Verses where within Protestantism itself , they contradict each other. Here’s a famous example:

 

Blessed Martin Luther believed in Soul Sleep which was Corrected by Blessed John Calvin. So, if your assumption of ‘Spirit-led’ is correct with ‘no errors in Doctrine’ is the right way of understanding that Verse (1 John 4:5 – 6), then it is clear that either Martin Luther or John Calvin is wrong. So, were one of these men not Spirit Led then?

 

Truth is, men are fallible and thus God doesn’t Prove His Truth via anyone’s theology and where even Great Names of Christianity (be it Protestant or Catholic or especially Saints in First Christianity) have contradicted themselves, I prefer not calling them names and allow Mercy as let God Alone Decide who is right.

 

If we decide to Judge claiming ‘flawless perfect theology’ calling those who differ from you to be cast to Hell, as per Matthew 7:2 the same Judgment will be meted back to you as Holy Scripture Promises sending you to Hell if you even missed one doctrinal point despite being right on others since you practiced that ‘level’ of Judgment toward others.

 

“For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:2, NKJV)

 

Regarding the possibility of a ‘minority doctrine’ being right, please read about “Chiliasm” as per link below:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

 

So, if you claim that you’re Spirit-Led to point that “Chiliasm” is wrong, it is equivalent to saying that these Greater Saints than any in Protestantism itself in First Christianity were not Led by Him such as Blessed St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, St. Melito of Sardis, Nepos, Coracion and St. Ambrose of Milan?

 

Please be careful before condemning any of them as a heretic as in the end you may be condemned for doing so.

 

This is equivalent to saying based on the “Chiliasm Doctrine”, are these Great Saints such as Blessed St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, St. Melito of Sardis, Nepos, Coracion and St. Ambrose of Milan in First Christianity all ‘Charlatans’?

My point is this: Even if you think you’re right “Practice Mercy” even in the “Theology Aspect” toward those who differ from you as that is the “Weightier Matters of the Law” (instead of ‘Truth only’ as “Mercy” is ‘toward those whom you think are wrong’):

 

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:23, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rich Pastors – Is it Biblical?

 

Question/Statement

 

Abraham and Job in Old Testament times were rich men who were also righteous and saved. Therefore, there is nothing wrong in being a rich pastor.

 

Reply

 

1 Corinthians 9:14 only allows a Pastor to make a “living” (or ‘needs’) from the Gospel and ‘not Prosperity’. Since one is ‘collecting money’ in the Name of God for ‘their prosperity’, if it is Wrong the the Verse below may Condemn them:

 

“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.” (Exodus 20:7, NKJV)

 

Abraham and Job were rich but they did not become rich by ‘collecting money from others in the Name of God’ but rather through ‘farm work’. Hence if any pastor wishes to be rich/prosperous likewise, if they follow they Bible, they ought to do it by “working a secular job only” as no other Biblical support of being rich by collecting money in the Name of God exists in Holy Scripture (please read 1 Corinthians 9:6 and Acts 20:34 – 35 carefully).

 

Last but not least, it is “not” the duty of the church members to take care of their pastor as God did not Command any such rule nor accountability as sometimes preached wrongly and against this Bible Verse below (so if we fear God, let’s not preach against this Verse either), to quote:

 

“13For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong. 14Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. 15And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. 16But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. 17Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? 18I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?” (2 Corinthians 12:13 – 18, KJV)

 

Please note carefully that Blessed St. Paul the Apostle himself says that those who follow in the True Faith will walk in these “same steps” in regards to ‘Financial Doctrine’ as 2 Corinthians 12:18 regarding ‘Walking in the Spirit’ literally means as he even “Apologizes” each time he had to take from his church members financially (2 Corinthians 12:13) and draws an analogy that just like it’s a duty of a parent to provide for their kids (and not in return), this same rule applies to ‘spiritual parenting relationship Biblically in money matters’ likewise (2 Corinthians 12:14) in “Bible Verses” (not opinions of men) above.

 

To ignore these “Biblical Rules” may forfeit one’s “crown” or reward as God Alone Decides that and the “Crown” is given according to the Level of “Suffering” (or “Hardships”) endured due to obeying the Word of God in various ways and “not” based on how much ‘prosperity’ one enjoys as a Christian ‘unshared’ (Luke 12:21) toward Charity (Luke 12:31 – 33) as Verse below clearly Reveal:

 

“3You therefore must endure[a] hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier. 5And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.” – the Blessed and Great St. Paul the Apostle (2 Tomothy 2:3 – 5, NKJV)

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Non-Elect Salvation Mystery

 

 

1) 1 Peter 3:18 -20 – non Elect Salvation.

 

2) Romans 11:26 – 32 – non Elect Salvation.

 

3) 1 Peter 4:5 – 6 – non Elect Salvation.

 

4) 1 Corinthians 3:15 – non Elect Salvation.

 

5) After the Judgment of Eternal Fire (Jude 1:7), non Elect Salvation of Restoration is Echoed in Ezekiel 16:51 – 55.

 

6) 1 Corinthians 15:25 toward “all of God’s Enemies” (not some Enemies only) a non-Elect Salvation is Echoed post-Subjection till God becomes all in all (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28).

 

7) ” Shadow of Death ” (Hellish Regions) non-Elect Salvation may be described in Psalm 107:10 – 15 as God (in Job 38:17) and Job (in Job 10:18 – 22) define it to refer to the Spirit World.

 

8) The Second Resurrection Badge of non-Christian Righteous may be viewed as a non-Elect Salvation too via the Chiliasm Doctrine (Matthew 25:31 – 46, John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2) toward those whom the Gospel was not Sowed even (Matthew 25:24, Matthew 25:26).

 

9) The Shepherd of Hermas Scripture in First Christianity clearly mentions Spirit World non-Elect Salvation toward the unbaptized or “other rejected from the Church stones (people)” too post afterlife Judgment.

 

10) All Creation Being Born Again Mystery in Romans 8:21 – 23 describes this “Birth Pangs” pain in “all creation” to be born again (as a new creation) to be set free from the servitude of “corruption/vanity” (of “sin”) where this aspect of the ‘Sons of God/Elect/Christian’ Salvation to be liberated from sin eventually is shared toward all creation eventually proving another type of non-Elect Salvation in Scripture. All Creation is what Paul Refers to in Romans 8:20 -21 Sharing in the Elect’s Liberty from Sin Salvation part. Please read it in your preferred translation carefully sir.

 

 

11) In the First Bibles of Christianity, both the Muratorian/Roman Canon in the West and the Codex Claromontanus in the East, the Apocalypse of Peter Book was called Holy Scripture together with the Book of Revelation and the oldest Surviving Fragments of it called the Rainer Fragments has a Section of Lord Jesus Christ Saving the Wicked from the Lake of Fire / Gehenna after a long time after the Prayers of the Saved Christians on behalf of them. Apart from the Rainer Fragment, the Ethiopian Orthodox Version has this non Elect Salvation from the Lake of Fire content in their Apocalypse of Peter Version too which is Holy Scripture in their recently re-discovered canon. This same Prophecy was very popular in First Christianity as it is re-stated in the non-Canonical books such as the Christianized Sibyline Oracles and others showing it being believed by the First Orthodox Christians.

 

Conclusion

 

The Earliest Authoritative Commentary of the New Testament in Latin before St. Augustine also reflects this Prophecy that the Righteous may ask for Anything including the Salvation of the Damned “on that Day” (after ‘Judgment Day’?) toward Christ Centered Universalism as shown below, to quote

 

“… and yet to recognize that His kingdom is ETERNAL, that is to say, the kingdom of the Son, for in the Name of Jesus EVERY KNEE shakes in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, and IN HELL. (Philip. 2) The Apostle St. Peter confirms this truth when he says:” No other name under heaven was given to MEN by which we were to BE SAVED.” (Acts 4) And did not the Lord Himself say to His disciples, “Until now you have not asked anything in my name, ask and I will answer you?” (Jn. 16:24) The REIGN of the Son therefore consists in the fact that it is in HIS NAME that ALL MEN are SAVED, and that ALL the PRAYERS addressed to Him until the end of the world are ANSWERED. But when ALL CREATURES have confessed Jesus Christ WILLINGLY or by FORCE, and have been subjected to the power against which they have resisted, then the MYSTERY of ONE GOD will be REVEALED to ALL MEN, and all thanksgivings will go back to God the Father, the principle of all things, that ALL PREACHING CEASE, ONE GOD be recognized in the MYSTERY of the TRINITY. … ” – Ambrosiaster (Written c. 366 – c. 384, Reply to Question 26, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke)

Source:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrosiaster-questions-and-answers-on-the-gospel-of-luke

 

“In THAT DAY you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. “Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:23 – 24, NASB)

Comment: Please notice carefully that Ambrosiaster quotes John 16:24 where in John 16:23 (see these Verses above), it is clear that the Context is “in THAT DAY” (probably the Seventh or Eighth Day onward in the Messianic Prophecies Timeline), all prayer requests especially for the Salvation of the Damned [that the ‘Eternal Hell Sentence’ may be Cancelled by His Mercy which can Triumph Over & End any Judgment Sentence, James 2:13] will be Answered causing this Universal Salvation of ‘All Men in heaven, Earth or Hell’ (Context: Please read the above ‘carefully’) agreeing to the Prophecies of the Apocalypse of Peter, Apocalypse of Elijah, Apocalypse of Zephaniah, the Christian-Jewish Sibyline Oracles, the Epistle of the Apostles, St. Julian of Norwich’s Visions & even the Visions of Sadhu Sundar Singh as it was Discussed in Previous posts, link below:

 

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-hope-for-the-wicked-one-day/amp/

 

Please consider these First Christianity Books where only one namely the Apocalypse of Peter was “Scripture” while the rest were generally not Scripture but were among Orthodox Christians (and ‘not heretics’), to quote:

 

So, these Ancient First Christianity Prophesies may thus Come to Pass at the Request of God’s Closest Saints when they finally Pray MANY TIMES for the Wicked too to be Saved from the Lake of Fire (1 Timothy 2:1) that ‘All Men may be Saved’ (1 Timothy 2:4 – KJV) as He is the Most Blessed ‘Saviour of All Men, especially those who believe’ (1 Timothy 4:10), to quote:

 

 

  1. Apocalypse of Zephaniah

 

i.1. Purgatory for Backslidden Christians

 

“.. 8And I also saw some blind ones crying out. And I was amazed when I saw all these works of God. 9I said, “Who are these?” He said unto me, “These are catechumens who heard the word of God, but they were not perfected in the work which they heard.” 10And I said unto him, “Then have they not repentance here?” He said, “Yes,” 11I said, “How long?” He said unto me, “Until the day when the Lord will judge.” 12And I saw others with their hair on them. 13I said, “Then there is hair and body in this place?” 14He said, “Yes, the Lord gives body and hair to them as he desires.”…” – Apocalypse of Zephaniah (aft 100 B.C. & bef A.D. 70)

 

 

 

i.2. Prayer of Salvation toward the non-Christian damned

 

The intercession of the saints for those in torment.

 

“… 111And I also saw multitudes. He brought them forth. 2As they looked at all of the torments they called out, praying before the Lord Almighty, saying, “We pray unto Thee on account of those who are in all these torments so that Thou might have mercy on all of them.” 3And when I saw them, I said to the angel who spoke with me, “<Who are these?>” 4He said, “These who beseech the Lord are Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. 5Then at a certain hour daily they come forth with the great angel. He soundeth a trumpet up unto heaven and another soundeth upon the earth. 6All the righteous hear the sound. They come running, praying to the Lord Almighty daily on behalf of these who are in all these torments.”…” – Apocalypse of Zephaniah (aft 100 B.C. & bef A.D. 70)

Source for both Quotes above:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100330084339/http://userpages.burgoyne.com/bdespain/progress/progzeph.htm

 

  1. Apocalypse of Peter

From Page 535 of the ‘Lost Orthodoxy’ Book:

“There is a great deal more of the Ethiopic text, but it is very evidently of later date; the next words are: Next: ‘ The Father hath committed all judgement unto the Son.’ The destiny of sinners -their eternal [AGE-DURING] doom- is more than Peter can endure: he appeals to Christ to have pity on them. And my Lord answered me and said to me: ‘Hast thou understood that which I said unto thee before? It is permitted unto thee to know that concerning which thou askest: but thou must not tell that which thou hearest unto the sinners lest they transgress the more, and sin.’ Peter weeps many hours, and is at last consoled by an answer which, though exceedingly diffuse and vague does seem to promise ultimate pardon for all: ‘My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away,’ . . . ‘It is because of them that have believed in Me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in Me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.’ The doctrine that sinners will be saved at last by the prayers of the righteous is, rather obscurely, enunciated in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles (a paraphrase, in this part, of the Apocalypse), and in the (Coptic) Apocalypse of Elias (see post). Ultimately Peter orders Clement to hide this revelation in a box, that foolish men may not see it. The passage in the Second Book of the Sibylline Oracles which seems to point to the ultimate salvation of all sinners will be found in the last lines of the translation given below.”

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-mrjames.html

 

iii. Apocalypse of Elijah

 

“Then the sinners [ in torment ] will see the place of the righteous. And thus GRACE WILL OCCUR. In THOSE DAYS, that which the RIGHTEOUS will ASK for MANY TIMES WILL BE GIVEN to them.” – Apocalypse of Elijah (Veses 28 – 29)

Source:

 

http://www.3-in-1.net/Pseudepigrapha/Apocalypse%20of%20Elijah/The%20Apocalypse%20of%20Elijah.htm

  1. Sibyline Oracles

Sibyline Oracles – apostle Paul & St. Justin Martyr told us to Read it:

 

To quote:

 

“… for a long day will God make.

And to the pious will the almighty God

405 Imperishable grant another thing,

When they shall ask the imperishable God:

That he will suffer men from raging fire

And endless gnawing anguish to be saved;

And this will he do. For hereafter he

410 Will pluck them from the restless flame, elsewhere

Remove them, and for his own people’s sake

Send them to other and eternal life

With the immortals, in Elysian field,” (Sibyline Oracles, Book II, 297-322, p. 51)

I repeat with [Emphasis] for a clearer Understanding:

“… for a long day will God make.

And to the pious [Christians] will the Almighty God

405 Imperishable grant another thing,

When they [righteous] shall ask [Pray to] the imperishable God:

That He [God] will suffer [Save] men from raging [Lake of] fire

And endless gnawing anguish to be saved;

And this will He [God] do. For hereafter He [God]

410 Will pluck them [Wicked] from the restless flame, elsewhere

Remove them, and for his own people’s sake [at the righteous’ prayers] Send them to other [another Lower Place] and eternal life With the immortals [Christians], in Elysian field,” (Sibyline Oracles, Book II, 297-322, p. 51)

Translation Source:  http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib04.htm

 

 

  1. Epistle of the Apostles

The Passage below refers to the Salvation Context post-Lake of Fire or the Final Gehenna Judgment as it is quoted below in full for you to see this as well clearly:

 

“… 39 And we said unto him: Lord, is this thy purpose, that thou leavest us, to come upon them? (Will all this come to pass, Eth.) He answered and said unto us: After what manner shall the judgement be? whether righteous or unrighteous? (In Copt. and Eth. the general sense is the same: but the answer of Jesus in the form of a question is odd, and there is probably a corruption.) We said unto him: Lord, in that day they will say unto thee: Thou hast not distinguished between (probably: will they not say unto thee: Thou hast distinguished between) righteousness and unrighteousness, between the light and the darkness, and evil and good? Then said he: I will answer them and say: Unto Adam was power given to choose one of the two: he chose the light and laid his hand thereon, but the darkness he left behind him and cast away from him. Therefore have all men power to believe in the light which is life, and which is the Father that hath sent me. And every one that believeth and doeth the works of the light shall live in them; but if there be any that confesseth that he belongeth unto the light, and doeth the works of darkness, such an one hath no defence to utter, neither can he lift up his face to look upon the Son of God, which Son am I. For I will say unto him: As thou soughtest, so hast thou found, and as thou askedst, so hast thou received. Therefore condemnest thou me, O man? Wherefore hast thou departed from me and denied me? And wherefore hast thou confessed me and yet denied me? hath not every man power to live and to die? Whoso then hath kept my commandments shall be a son of the light, that is, of the Father that is in me. But because of them that corrupt my words am I come down from heaven. I am the word: I became flesh, and I wearied myself (or, suffered) and taught, saying: The heavy laden shall be saved, and they that are gone astray shall go astray for ever. They shall be chastised and tormented in their flesh and in their soul. 40 And we said unto him: O Lord, verily we are sorrowful for their sake. And he said unto us: Ye do rightly, for the righteous are sorry for the sinners, and pray for them, making prayer unto my Father. Again we said unto him: Lord, is there none that maketh intercession unto thee (so Eth.)? And he said unto us: Yea, and I will hearken unto the prayer of the righteous which they make for them…” (Epistle of the Apostles, Coptic, Points 39 – 40 in full)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apostolorum.html

 

P/S: Testimony of the Mysterious “Ambrosiaster” whom even St. Augustine read

 

Blessed Ambrosiaster seems to Point that the “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” Mystery (1 Corinthians 2:9) includes the Saved-Christians asking for the Salvation of ALL MANKIND, to quote:

 

“… QUESTION 112. ON PSALM FIFTY. … so that at this sight, God, sensitive to his complaints, extends his hand to him in the midst of the difficulties which besiege him. “Because you loved the truth.” (Ps. 50:8) Since you have loved the truth, he said to God, come to my aid, I beg you, for you know that I have explained to you the true weaknesses of my soul, and you have resolved in your mercy to save the sinner by healing by a heavenly providence the wounds that sin has made to him on the earth. That’s why he adds, “You have revealed to me the secrets and mysteries of your heart.” These SECRETS and these MYSTERIES are the HELP that GOD has PREPARED for the HUMAN RACE, of which the Apostle said: “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”1 Cor. 2:9) Who are those who love God? those who accept his law without trying to disguise or excuse their faults. These secrets of the heart are thus revealed to those who love God. The multitude of sins with which they deplore the sad influence could have made them question the justice of punishment, reject their faults on their origin, and make God their creator responsible for their sins. Their hearts were enlightened with a spiritual light and they discovered the providence of God in the coming of Christ who was to come to destroy the sin that had exercised the tyranny on mankind since the evasiveness of Adam. King David therefore asks God that, since He has resolved to SAVE THE HUMAN RACE ONE DAY from the SAD STATE in which he sees him reduced, he anticipates for himself, the victim of the same misfortune, the SALVATION HE [God] MUST GIVE TO ALL ONE DAY, and that he should give to his prayers and tears the free gift which he held in reserve and which he could NOT GRANT BEFORE THE MARKED TIME. How will it be done? He indicates it with the following words: “You will water me with the hyssop and I will be purified.” (Ps. 50:9) He rightly asks to be purified by sprinkling with the hyssop. The children of Israel sprinkled the poles of their house with this sprinkling to escape the exterminating angel (Exod. 20:22), and David also asks to be purified of his sins by the sprinkling of the hyssop, also to escape from death. “You will wash me and I will become whiter than the snow.” Now it is evident that God’s action is at a great distance from the action of man, which is why David says, “And I will be whiter than snow,” because the work of God has a character of perfection which the work of man cannot have. It therefore requires to be purified by sprinkling with hyssop, that is, just as the body is purified by water from its material soils, so the hyssop is the PURIFIED FIGURE of a spiritual operation of the souls by the defilements of sin. Sprinkling with the hyssop is a kind of purification whose visible action indicates the inner and invisible purification. “You will make me hear words of comfort and joy.” (Ps. 50:10) There is no doubt that the voice of one who ANNOUNCES the REMISSIONS of SINS does not SPREAD JOY in the SOULS of SINNERS. Who would NOT REJOICE, indeed, at the NEWS of the FORGIVENESS granted to him? For the FORGIVENESS of GOD gives all security for the PRESENT and for the FUTURE. … ” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

 

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/ambrosiaster-questions-on-the-old-and-new-testaments/scriptural-order-old-testament

 

Focus Phrase from the above proving our claim:

 

“… These SECRETS and these MYSTERIES are the HELP that GOD has PREPARED for the HUMAN RACE, of which the Apostle said: “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”1 Cor. 2:9) Who are those who love God? those who accept his law without trying to disguise or excuse their faults. These secrets of the heart are thus revealed to those who love God. … King David therefore asks God that, since He has resolved to SAVE THE HUMAN RACE ONE DAY from the SAD STATE in which he sees him reduced … the SALVATION HE [God] MUST GIVE TO ALL ONE DAY, and that he should give to his prayers and tears the free gift which he held in reserve and which he could NOT GRANT BEFORE THE MARKED TIME. … so the hyssop is the PURIFIED FIGURE of a spiritual operation of the souls by the defilements of sin. Sprinkling with the hyssop is a kind of purification whose visible action indicates the inner and invisible purification. … There is no doubt that the voice of one who ANNOUNCES the REMISSIONS of SINS does not SPREAD JOY in the SOULS of SINNERS. Who would NOT REJOICE, indeed, at the NEWS of the FORGIVENESS granted to him? For the FORGIVENESS of GOD gives all security for the PRESENT and for the FUTURE. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster

  1. ii) Salvation from Hell is Promised both now and after His Second Coming (Advent) too in Holy Scripture Pointing further to the accuracy of the Apocalypse of Peter Prophecy likewise?

 

“… The prophet Joel also predicted this phenomenon so that one cannot doubt the fulfillment of a fact attested by several witnesses. “And the sun,” he says, “will be changed into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible DAY of the LORD’s COMING.” (Joel 2:31) . As far as the literal meaning of these words indicates, they seem to be more fitting for the SECOND ADVENT, for then the Lord will manifest himself publicly to ALL MEN, to the testimony of Scripture: “Then every eye will see him, and all the tribes of the earth and those who have crucified him will strike their breast.” (Rev. 1:7) … So the prophet foretold that the Savior would take care of their infirmities, and this prophecy is fulfilled in his time, as we see in the Gospel: “He really has borne our torpor, of our sufferings.” (Isa. 1:4) All these predictions have received their consummation and fulfillment in the Savior’s passion, and thus the SALVATION of the HUMAN RACE has been done in a true way for those who were on EARTH or in HELL, for the prophecy of Zachariah embraces both of them at once. On earth, men have been freed from the oppression of their enemies by the intervention of the mercy of God, and in HELL THEY were DELIVERED from the SORROWS THEY ENDURED. Indeed, all those who hoped in Christ who had been Promised to them awaited the coming of Him Who was to triumph over DEATH and DELIVER THEM from HELL. This is why Zechariah says: “To fulfill His mercies toward our fathers.” (Luke 1:72) But if it is understood that THIS SALVATION MUST ALSO COME in the SECOND ADVENT, … ” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD, Quote)

 

Source (Written c. 366 AD – c. 384 AD, Reply to Question 105, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke):  https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrosiaster-questions-and-answers-on-the-gospel-of-luke

Focus Phrases Proving our Claim:

 

“… All these predictions have received their consummation and fulfillment in the Savior’s passion, and thus the SALVATION of the HUMAN RACE has been done in a true way for those who were on EARTH or in HELL, for the prophecy of Zachariah embraces both of them at once. On earth, men have been freed from the oppression of their enemies by the intervention of the mercy of God, and in HELL THEY were DELIVERED from the SORROWS THEY ENDURED. Indeed, all those who hoped in Christ who had been Promised to them awaited the coming of Him Who was to triumph over DEATH and DELIVER THEM from HELL. … But if it is understood that THIS SALVATION MUST ALSO COME in the SECOND ADVENT …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster

 

iii) Apocalypse of Peter’s Prayer of the Righteous Christians Asking for ‘anything in His Will’ (2 Peter 3:9, John 16:24) which includes the Salvation of All Mankind (1 Timothy 2:1, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10) Requested on “that Day” (John 16:23) Mystery as the Meaning of Christ’s Eternal Reign too (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28)

 

“… and yet to recognize that His kingdom is ETERNAL, that is to say, the kingdom of the Son, for in the Name of Jesus EVERY KNEE shakes in HEAVEN, on the EARTH, and IN HELL. (Philippians. 2) The Apostle St. Peter confirms this truth when he says:” No other name under heaven was given to MEN by which we were to BE SAVED.” (Acts 4) And did not the Lord Himself say to His disciples, “Until now you have not asked anything in my name, ask and I will answer you?” (John. 16:23 – 24) The REIGN of the Son therefore consists in the fact that it is in HIS NAME that ALL MEN are SAVED [Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13], and that ALL the PRAYERS addressed to Him until the end of the world are ANSWERED [1 Timothy 2:1, 4, 6, 1 Timothy 4:10]. But when ALL CREATURES have confessed Jesus Christ WILLINGLY or by FORCE, and have been subjected to the power against which they have resisted, then the MYSTERY of ONE GOD will be REVEALED to ALL MEN, and all thanksgivings will go back to God the Father, the principle of all things, that ALL PREACHING CEASE, ONE GOD be recognized in the MYSTERY of the TRINITY. … ” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

 

Source (Written c. 366 AD – c. 384 AD, Reply to Question 26, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke):

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrosiaster-questions-and-answers-on-the-gospel-of-luke

 

 

A Bonus Example: The ones Saved in Romans 11:30 -32 are “enemies of the Gospel” from among the Jewish race (Romans 11:28) and enemies of the Gospel are ‘not the Elect’.

 

Please note that it Speaks of them being Saved whilst being “Enemies of the Gospel” in the Context of “All Israel being Saved” and not on earth as Christians. In other words, Romans 9:6 Speaks of some of the ‘believing Israel’ Saved in the ‘Elect Salvation’ as Christians (Romans 9:6).

 

However, regarding the “non-Elect Salvation” toward the unbelieving, fallen Israelites (Romans 11:1), the Spiritually Blind Israel (Romans 11:8), the disobedient Israel (Romans 11:9 – 11) are the ‘same ones’ said to ‘not fall until there is no hope’ (in Romans 11:11 – 12) where this same blind unbelieving Israelites Blessed apostle Paul Says that there are Reserved for Salvation in “All Israel Shall be Saved Mystery” in some Future Time in Zion (Romans 11:26) inclusive of these “Hardened ones” (please take note carefully in Romans 11:25) who are called the “enemies of the Gospel” (Romans 11:28) who will eventually be shown Mercy and be Saved (Romans 11:30 – 32) toward those in “unbelief” (KJV) or in “disobedience” (NASB). That’s what is Written sir as you may refer to your favourite translation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bible Books – Which is Scripture?

Question

A protestant claimed (whilst rejecting the Book of Tobit as Scripture) that the person only accepts “Book quoted by Christ” to be in the Bible and reject it otherwise.

 

Reply

1) Firstly, which Bible?

The Protestant one where Martin Luther removed 7 books and has 66 books?

 

or

 

The Roman Catholic one which has 73 Books?

or

 

The Eastern (Greek) Orthodox one which has 79 Books?

or

 

The First Bibles of Christianity called the Muratorian/Roman Canon in the West or the Codex Claromontanus in the East?

 

 

2) Old Testament Books Never Quoted in the Bible

This list has all the Old Testament books that are never explicitly quoted in the New Testament.

 

Judges

Ruth

Ezra

Esther

Ecclesiastes

Song of Solomon

Lamentations

Obadiah

Jonah

Zephaniah

 

Source: https://www.knowableword.com/2013/03/27/11-old-testament-books-never-quoted-in-the-new-testament/

 

Personally Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ did NOT quote from Nahum, Obadiah, Estehr, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 1 Chronicles, Job, Ezra, Nehemiah, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, or Haggai either. So, is she going to ‘remove them too from her Bible’?

So, is such a person going to tear the Bible Pages which contain these books too since it has been NEVER quoted by LORD JESUS CHRIST NOR QUOTED in the NEW TESTAMENT?

Please notice carefully that even the “Book of Enoch” is quoted in the “New Testament” (Jude 1:14 – 15) but NOT any of these books (point 4 later).

 

3) The Septuagint

 

Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the apostles viewed the deuterocanonical books as part of canon of the Old Testament.

 

4) The Book of Enoch

Book of Enoch (not in the Bible) is quoted by Blessed Apostle Jude (in Jude 1:14 – 15). If the Book of Enoch is corrupted as some protestants claim, why does the Apostle Jude himself quote it in the Bible?

 

Note: Blessed Apostle St. Jude has only the “1 Enoch” type of the Book of Enoch which subsequent Church Leaders such as Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons called as “Scripture”.

 

5) No Verse Says that Condition

 

You can also ask that person where in the bible does it say that a book needs to be quoted by Jesus to be considered canonical. When he/she cannot answer, ask how he/she knows better than the first Christians what should be considered inspired.

 

6) The Mysterious Apocalypse of Peter Scripture and Shepherd of Hermas Scripture

Recap: The Final Salvation from the Lake of Fire is Echoed in the ‘Apocalypse of Peter Book’ while ‘Spirit World Salvation toward even some of the Unbaptized rejected stones (people) in the Spirit World post afterlife Judgment’ is pointed out in the Shepherd of Hermas.

 

How reliable are these as Scripture in First Christianity?

 

This Apocalypse of Peter is listed as Canonical Scripture in the Oldest First Bible Canon, to quote:

“… The Muratorian fragment, also known as the Muratorian Canon[1](18:02) or Canon Muratori, is a copy of perhaps the oldest known list of most of the books of the New Testament. … In addition to receiving the Apocalypse of John into the church canon, the author remarks that they also receive the Apocalypse of Peter, although “some of us will not allow the latter to be read in church” …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment

The phrase “some of us will not allow the latter [Apocalypse of Peter] to be read in church” is NOT because they doubted its authenticity but because of the Reason that ‘it was to be kept a Secret from sinners (not righteous Christians) as the prophecy prior Reveals’. In Church, there could be ‘sinners + new converts + righteous’ and thus it is not to be read there.

 

If these First Christians Doubted the Authenticity of the Apocalypse of Peter (as some biased scholars claim), then it would NOT have been listed by them as Canonical Scripture. So, the fact that they listed it as Canonical Scripture Proves Its Authenticity and their Full Acceptance of It with additional rules to it, that’s all.

 

A similar phrase [ to ‘not read it publicly’ ] was also given to the ‘Shepherd of Hermas Scripture’ in this same Muratorian Canon as follows:

 

“… The text of the list [Muratorian Canon] itself is traditionally dated to about 170 because its author refers to Pius I, bishop of Rome (140—155), as recent: But Hermas wrote The Shepherd “most recently in our time”, in the city of Rome, while bishop Pius, his brother, was occupying the chair of the church of the city of Rome. And therefore it ought indeed to be read; but it cannot be read publicly to the people in church either among the Prophets, whose number is complete, or among the Apostles, for it is after their time. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment

 

Since the Shepherd of Hermas is not in the Bible today, it’s not because it is ‘not fully truth’ but rather because it’s not at the level of the Old Testament Prophets nor New Testament Apostles as the quote above implies. The Shepherd of Hermas is Truth and thus it is appointed by the early Church leaders to read (e.g. by St. Athanasius and Eusebius too) as it is the case with the Book of Enoch too where both of these are called “Scripture” likewise by Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the direct disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation which makes these claims even more reliable.

 

 

 

 

Conclusion

If a Doctrine is built upon Scripture especially First Christianity Scripture as we have seen, we will not be judged against it. We will only be Judged if we teach something from a Book which is NOT listed as Scripture in Christianity. Another dangerous position would be to ‘remove books from First Christianity Scripture’ as accepting or keeping an open mind about it would be the safer route in my opinion since the ones who rejected it all came in ‘later’ (meaning that it’s a less reliable testimony & even if the earlier ones turned out to be wrong, God won’t judge us for it because we are simply striving to keep to the ‘First Christianity’ Evidence as it is Found in History).

 

So inclusiveness, we “don’t judge” either way in regards to these “future prophecies” because the “future time has not come yet for these to be fulfilled” as per the Verse below:

 

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.” (1 Corinthians 4:5, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Final Test of Christian Theology

 

Question

 

Are the Book of 1Enoch, Shepherd of Hermas and Apocalypse of Peter Scripture as per First Christianity and should we guard our mouths before we Speak against these Verses or should we be bold to condemn it?

 

Reply

 

Why should we guard our words and not easily condemn other Christians especially “First Christianity” even if we think that we are right?

 

Indeed, I believe in First Christianity even the Muratorian Canon, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Book of Enoch and even the Testimony of Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons.

 

If you think you are so right and 100% correct, here’s a test no protestant theologians have ever dared to answer when I asked them. Let’s see how you fare.

 

Is the Book 1Enoch, Apocalypse of Peter and the Shepherd of Hermas all Scripture from God, or not Scripture & from the Devil or you don’t know for sure?

 

Warning: Please be careful of the answer “not Scripture & from the Devil” because if you are wrong, you may have then have committed the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which has no forgiveness in this age or in the one to come (Matthew 12:31 – 32). Good luck.

 

Regarding the other two options, “calling the Shepherd of Hermas & Book of 1Enoch as Scripture” has no danger as even Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons did so too while calling the Apocalypse of Peter as Scripture has no danger either as both the First Bibles of Christianity, i. e. the Muratorian/Roman Canon in the West and Codex Claromontanus in the East called it likewise as Scripture too.

Admitting that “I don’t know for sure” is okay too as that’s honesty as well as per obeying the phrase “Judge nothing before its time” in regards to future prophecies is included (because its not the time yet for it to come to pass) as it is Written in 1 Corinthians 4:5.

 

 

Conclusion

 

This is why I do NOT condemn Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians nor even Protestants beyond arguing their point with First Christianity quotes and even if I think that my point is right, I do NOT dare to say that they’re led by the Devil because if their error was human (please remember that they are Christians too), hence commenting on them wrongly could earn one to commit the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as described in Principle in Bible Verses below of which I do NOT dare take the risk of “condemning Christian who disagrees with me” to that extent of speech/conduct:

 

“28“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” – Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 3:28 – 30, NKJV)

 

This is the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Definition from Verses above: “… 30because they said, “He has an unclean spirit. …” (Mark 3:30).

 

Note: The reply from that Protestant was that there’s a third option where these are just ‘man-made only and not from God nor the Devil’.

 

My reply to him: “… You answered for yourself as your third option (i. e. it’s from men) is equivalent to saying they’re not from God for sure. May God have Mercy on your soul (if you’re wrong). …”

 

Comment: It’s not an external Source as Apostle Jude in Jude 1:14 – 15 quoted 1Enoch. Are you astounded that Blessed Apostle Jude, Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Tertulian, St. Clement of Alexandria and Athenagoras of Athens and many other earlier Church Leaders are all Christians who quoted 1Enoch as “Scripture”? It doesn’t contradict Revelation 20:10 but explains it as both 1Enoch and Apocalypse of Peter Says. Each Scripture in First Christianity. If you don’t accept that, we are viewing it differently as explained which is ok. As for me I keep an open mind especially since Apostle Jude, St. Irenaeous and the Muratorian Canon First authoritative Christians all agree to these Writings as Scripture and hope it so likewise.

 

In other words, when you call the Book of 1Enoch extrabiblical, you’re accusing Apostle Jude (Jude 1:14 – 15) and first Christianity leaders such as Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Tertulian, St. Clement of Alexandria and Athenagoras of Athens and many other earlier Church Leaders to be making a “mistake”. Please be careful with your words sir.

 

Apostle Paul quoted the poets to state not prophecy but similar facts meaning he is quoting a Bible Verse (or Jewish Truth first) and shows a similar pagan poet writing. The context is different. Apostle Jude quoting 1Enoch as Prophecy (different context) meaning 1Enoch can be quoted for Prophecy. It would be rather strange for apostle St. Jude to quote the only existing “1Enoch” at his time in Jude 1:14 – 15 unless he considered it as “Scripture” too.

 

I repeat, this is not an extra Biblical Source as “1Enoch” was quoted by apostle Jude in the Bible (Jude 1:14 – 15) as Scripture. That’s the only 1 Enoch which existed during Apostle Jude’s time. Many of the “earliest” church fathers including Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons called it Scripture. Only the ‘later fathers’ didn’t consider it Scripture level but still considered it truth in essence. Hence, the description of the Lake of Fire even the “forever and ever” in it describes a change in the spirit of those who are punished to become good as the phrase “none shall utter an idle word before Him” implies. This change is what is described as “forever and ever” . Also, the Lake of Fire Judgment Sentence is said to be “for ever” in Chapters 50 and 67 being “conditional to repentance”. In other words, the fire burns them forever if they don’t repent (conditional).

 

Those who repent there as the Book of Enoch mentions become changed permanently toward not uttering any idle word anymore (i. e. toward Good) and that same waters cause “healing” as it is Written. So, the only difference is this: you are interpreting Revelation 20:10 by yourself alone while rejecting both the Book of Enoch and Apocalypse of Peter Scriptures. However, as per First Christianity (as no record earlier exists), I’m interpreting it using both of these books together with it.

 

So, relax and let see One Day which Happens on Judgment Day. Arguing beyond this would be futile as we are arguing based on a different set of Scripture.

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Book of Revelation Mystery – You decide your fate

 

Question / Claim

 

I stand with Martin Luther in that the Book of Revelation is not Scripture since it has no Apostolic authorship.

 

Reply

 

Blessed Apostle St. John wrote the Book of Revelation.

 

The claim that it was written by another John is not made by any apostolic father of the church but Dionysius of Alexandria who himself couldn’t give any apostolic fathers who believe equally as him but just stating “emptily” without proof quotes from any earlier writing that it’s some other John, to quote:

 

“… Eusebius quotes from Bishop Dionysius the Great of Alexandria (d. 264-265):

 

Some indeed of those before our time rejected and altogether impugned the book, examining it chapter by chapter and declaring it to be unintelligible and illogical, and its title fake. For they say that it is not John’s [the apostle], no, nor yet an apocalypse, since it is veiled by its heavy, thick curtain of unintelligibility; and that the author of this book was not only not one of the apostles, nor even one of the saints or those belonging to the Church, but Cerinthus, the same who created the sect called ‘Cerinthian’ after him, since he desired to affix to his own forgery a name worthy of credit. . . . But for my part I should not dare to reject the book, since many brethren hold that the interpretation of each several passages in some way hidden and more wonderful. …”

 

Source:

 

https://www.quora.com/Which-John-wrote-the-Revelation?top_ans=93443503

 

Dionysius’ real claim of the supposed authorship by someone else is not by quoting any Apostolic Father of the Church (because there is “none” who are on his side apart from some sidelined non-major fathers if compared say to Blessed St. Justin Martyr) but by quoting ‘grammar study’ which is easily debunked as follows:

 

“… Those who argue for John the Elder say that Revelation contains too many differences in style and grammar from John’s Gospel and Epistles. Dionysius used such an argument in A.D. 247.8 However, the style differences may be answered by the different genre or the use of a different scribe. Furthermore, Revelation and the Gospel contain many similarities in motif, Christology, eschatology, and expressions.9 Based on these facts, this paper concludes that John the Apostle wrote the Revelation. …”

 

Source:

 

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13997/what-historical-reasons-resulted-in-revelation-being-included-in-most-christian

 

Conclusion

 

The earliest known testimonies (for example of Blessed St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeous of Lyons etc) which are much much earlier than Dionysius, hence First Christianity testify that it’s Blessed St. John the Apostle himself:

 

Justin Martyr [Dialogue with Trypho, p. 308] (a.d. 139–161) quotes from the Apocalypse, as John the apostle’s work, the prophecy of the millennium of the saints, to be followed by the general resurrection and judgment. This testimony of Justin is referred to also by Eusebius [Ecclesiastical History, 4.18]. Justin Martyr, in the early part of the second century, held his controversy with Trypho, a learned Jew, at Ephesus, where John had been living thirty or thirty-five years before: he says that “the Revelation had been given to John, one of the twelve apostles of Christ.”

 

Unless those who claim otherwise can produce a reliable church father at St. Justin Martyr’s level, it’s an empty claim. But hey, people often choose to believe that empty claim with lesser credentials as proven by Martin Luther himself.

 

Rejecting that Book can cause one to be rejected from the “… Holy City, the Book of Life and the things Written in that Book…” as Revelation 22:19 Testifies,which is so well deserved as each make his decision for himself. Logic: Why should one be rewarded to inherit its content if they don’t believe in it?

 

Even more reliable than Blessed St. Justin Martyr himself, the First Bible Canon of Christianity called the Muratorian Canon included both the “Apocalypse of John” (Book of Revelation) and “Apocalypse of Peter” as “Scripture”, to quote:

 

“… Another indication that the author identified the Gospel writer John with two epistles bearing John’s name is that when he specifically addresses the epistles of John, he writes, “the Epistle of Jude indeed, and the two belonging to the above mentioned John.” In other words, he thinks that these letters were written by the John whom he has already discussed, namely John the gospel writer. He gives no indication that he considers the John of the Apocalypse to be a different John from the author of the Gospel of John.

 

Indeed, by calling the author of the Apocalypse of John the “predecessor” of Paul, who, he assumes, wrote to seven churches (Rev 2–3) before Paul wrote to seven churches [lines 48–50],[7] he most likely has in mind the gospel writer, since he assumes that the writer of the Gospel of John was an eyewitness disciple who knew Jesus, and thus preceded Paul who joined the church only a few years after Jesus’ death (Acts 9).

 

In addition to receiving the Apocalypse of John into the church canon, the author remarks that they also receive the Apocalypse of Peter, although “some of us will not allow the latter to be read in church”[line 72] …”

 

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment

 

As explained in earlier posts, just like the Shepherd of Hermas Scripture mentioned in this Muratorian / Roman Canon has the comment that “it should be read but not publically in Church”, it’s an indication that these are for more mature believers as their contents are more deep or revealing.

 

Here are other facts:

 

  1. i) Other more reliable Church fathers who recognized that Blessed St. John the Apostle himself who wrote this Book of Revelation, to quote:

 

“… As external evidence they point to the early church writers like Iraneus (A.H. 5.30.3), Victorinus of Pettau (Apocalypse 10.11), Eusebius (H.E. 3.17-18), Clement of Alexandria (Quis Dives Salvetur 42), and Origen (Matthew 16.6) who all agree John wrote during the time of Domitian.12 … As discussed above, John the Apostle did write Revelation. Though debated early, the view of John the Apostle as author prevailed, much to the delight of Justin Martyr, Bishop Melito of Sardis, and Theophilus of Antioch who all defended the Apostle as author.29 After the view became accepted, the West almost stopped arguing against Revelation. …”

 

  1. ii) Even Dionysius only disputed apostolic authorship but still accepted it as part of the Bible Canon of his time

 

“… Revelation appears in canonical listings as early as the Muratorian fragment in the second century. Iraneus quotes it often and approvingly, even making Revelation the basis of his “already-but- not-yet” eschatology.20 Cyprian, Clement of Alexandira, and Origen all accept the book. Likewise, though Dionysius interprets the book allegorically and rejects apostolic authorship, he accepts it as canonical.21 ..”

 

iii) The questionable faith of these ones based on their exclusion or non-mention of the Book of Revelation

 

“… On the other hand, many in the early centuries disputed Revelation’s place in the canon. Marcion rejects Revelation because of the numerous Old Testament references in the book. Gaius and the Algoloi also reject it because the Montanists use Revelation so often.22 Eusebius places Revelation in both his “universally acknowledged” and “spurios” lists. Both times he qualifies his judgement with “should it seem right.” Chrysostom never quotes from Revelation, leaving the modern world no clue to his thoughts on the book of Revelation. Gregory of Nanzianus, and Cyril leave it out of their listings of the canon. Moreover, the Nestorian churches still leave Revelation out of their canon.23 Revelation has never held a very secure place in the Eastern Orthodox canon. The Syriac Peshitta omits it, and the Council of Laodicia did not recognize it.24 As late as 850, the Eastern Church listed the book as disputed. They still do not read from Revelation regularly. Greek commentaries written in the fifth and sixth centuries probably helped Revelation gain acceptance in the Eastern empire.25 … Calvin could not understand the book and refused to write a commentary. Though Luther leaves Revelation in his translation, he sees it as “unapostolic” and cannot find Christ.27 …”

 

*Please note how shaky the faiths of the two key Protestant Reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin when it comes to the Book of Revelation.

 

  1. iv) Others who accepted the Book of Revelation in late first Christianity

“… Even though the East had trouble with the book, the West recognized Revelation as inspired fairly early. Jerome, Ambrose, Rufinus, Augustine, and Innocent all accept it as canonical.26 The Third Council of Carthage (397) listed as canonical, and at the Third Constantinople Council officially ratified Revelation in 680. The book then follows a bumpy path into the modern world. … ”

Source for each quote above from i) to iv):

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13997/what-historical-reasons-resulted-in-revelation-being-included-in-most-christian

 

 

Summary

This is how the Bible Canon ought to be Viewed (Core Books + Additional Scripture/Truth), to quote:

“… Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John. 6. These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. … But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple. …”– Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD)

Source: https://carm.org/early-church-fathers-canon

Comment: Please note carefully that the “Book of Revelation” and the “Shepherd” (or ‘Shepherd of Hermas’) is included in the “Bible Canon” by Blessed St. Athanasius the Great’s quote above too. The “Apocalypse of Peter” is not mentioned but as stated, it was stated in the “First Bibles” of Christianity both the Muratorian/Roman Canon in the West and the Codex Claromontanus in the East which are more reliable than St. Athanasius himself who came in later along that lineage of ‘Authority in Doctrine’, for example as even Blessed St. Clement of Alexandria who was before St. Athanasius or even Origen of Alexandria affirmed that the “Apocalypse of Peter” was Scripture, to quote:

 

“… The Catalogue Claromontanus, an eastern list of sacred Christian writings from the third century, also names the Revelation of Peter as scripture. Eusebius (c. 339 C.E.), in his Ecclesiastical History (iii., 25), mentions the Revelation of Peter along with the Acts of Paul and the Shepherd of Hermas as disputed books, while admitting elsewhere that Clement of Alexandria had quoted from it as scripture. Although the tide began to turn against it through the work of Athanasius (mid-fourth century) and others, Macarius Magnes (early fifth century) still cites the Apocalypse of Peter as scripture (Apocritica, iv., 6). By the mid-fifth century, however, it was clear that the work would not be accepted into the Christian canon. Though not condemned as heretical, it began to be included in lists of the New Testament apocrypha, where it remains today. …”

Source: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Apocalypse_of_Peter

 

More related discussion concerning Revelation 22:19 in links below:

 

  1. Which Type of Removal is Spoken of in Revelation 22:19?

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159410481582784

  1. Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformant did not believe in the Book of Revelation as Holy Scripture

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159399771867784

iii. Reformer Martin Luther is not reliable to make decisions such as to remove 7 books from the Bible as he did

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159399659322784

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Martin Luther – Do Protestants even know him?

 

Question/ Proposal

 

Are you ready to accept Martin Luther as “Blessed Saint Martin Luther”?

 

Reply

 

1) Martin Luther believed in the Soul Sleep heresy and hence he removed books such as Tobit and others which describe the “Spirit World” a little. It’s obviously a personal bias following after ‘unbelieving Jews’ Tradition likewise to take it likewise instead of following “First Christians” which is what I follow. You’re following a man who doesn’t even know what happens after death (less so what happens at the end of the age) as he believed in “Soul Sleep” and how is he in any position to be chosen by God to remove 7 Books from the Bible?

 

And yes it makes a “doctrinal difference” as the 66 books can sometimes prove soul sleep without the addition of the other 7. How convenient.

 

2) Sola Scriptura Martin Luther?

 

He believed in the unscriptural doctrine that among human beings, “no one is equal to Virgin Mary’s holiness & glory”. Here is his infamous quote:

 

“… [S]he became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child…. Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God…. None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.” …”

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Mariology

Question: Which Bible Verse in the 66 Books Teach this Doctrine Sola Scriptura please?

How Reliable.

 

3) Martin Luther himself had some “near death experience” (which proves the existence of the Spirit World) whether or not he met the real spirits of saints or otherwise, to quote:

 

“… Martin Luther was the eldest of a large family and his father planned for him to study law in order to help with the family business. But it appears Luther had other plans. At age 21 he was caught up in a large storm and the story goes that he prayed to St. Anna, the mother of the Virgin Mary, to save his life, promising to become a monk if he survived. Some claim this was a common practice in young people at the time, who did not want to follow in the path chosen for them by their parents. Whatever his reasoning, Luther honoured his promise and was ordained two years later. …”

 

Source: https://www.thelocal.de/20191031/12-interesting-facts-about-martin-luther

How Self Contradicting.

4) Forgot the Warning in Genesis 12:3 regarding how to treat the Jews?

“I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:3, NKJV)

The “Saint” title you propose to Martin Luther needs to be put on hold a bit because despite his doctrinal errors, his personal life or ambition toward other human beings especially the “Jews” were “not Christian” at all, to quote:

“… In a paragraph from his On the Jews and Their Lies [Written in 1543*] he deplores Christendom’s failure to expel them. Moreover, he proposed “What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews”:[1]

 

“First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …” “Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.” “Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.” “Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …” “Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …” “Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …” “Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …” …” – Wikipedia (“Luther, Martin”, JewishEncyclopedia.com; cf. Luther’s Works, American Edition, 55 vols., (St. Louis and Philadelphia: Concordia Publishing House and Fortress Press, 1955–86) 47:267.)

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

 

*1543: The quotes above were Written in his Book “On the Jews and Their Lies” just three years before his death as Martin Luther died in 1546.

Just before his death in 1546, Martin Luther covered up sweetly his antisemitism as follows giving ‘survival reasons’ (while Christ Teaches us to ‘lay down our lives’), to quote:

 

“…Shortly before his death on February 18, 1546 Luther preached four sermons in Eisleben.[24] He appended to the second to the last what he called his “final warning” against the Jews.[25] The main point of this short work is that authorities who could expel the Jews from their lands should do so if they would not convert to Christianity. Otherwise, Luther indicated, such authorities would make themselves “partners in another’s sins”.[26] … Yet, we will show them Christian love and pray for them that they may be converted to receive the Lord, whom they should honor properly before us. Whoever will not do this is no doubt a malicious Jew, who will not stop blaspheming Christ, draining you dry, and, if he can, killing [you]. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

 

So his antisemitism for his entire life which caused many Jews to be killed in his lifetime and even till today (as many ‘conservative protestant militant denominations/cults quote him’ – hence his words are responsible for it) can just be “covered up” by that last sermon prior to his death? How convenient.

Also, how about all those people who believed in his antisemitism who killed others or are killed and went to an ‘eternal Hell’ because of following his earlier murderous doctrines? Will he be ‘easily forgiven’ or held responsible by God?

 

Example of a “mas murder” done in the name of Martin Luther and John Calvin’s Doctrine influence:

“… Vincenz Fettmilch, a Calvinist, reprinted On the Jews and Their Lies in 1612 to stir up hatred against the Jews of Frankfurt. Two years later, riots in Frankfurt saw the deaths of 3,000 Jews and the expulsion of the rest. Fettmilch was executed by the Lutheran city authorities, but Michael writes that his execution was for attempting to overthrow the authorities, not for his offenses against the Jews. …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

 

At least nobody murders anybody by believing in Christ Centered Universalism Hope which has no place for such doctrines.

 

Behold your saint, How Saintly in life.

 

5) Martin Luther’s Sola Scriptura Doctrine? [The list below sounds more like he believed in so many “unbiblical and profane doctrines” – prepare to be astounded)

Here are some of Martin Luther’s Doctrine which may be very offensive to God if not short of the “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Himself”, to quote (each quote is from Martin Luther), to quote:

 

“… MARTIN LUTHER ON THE DIGNITY AND MAJESTY OF GOD

 

“I look upon God no better than a scoundrel” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963).

 

“Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous must have been guilty of fornication before He died.” (ref. Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107. – What a great blasphemy from a man who is regarded as “great reformer”!).

“I have greater confidence in my wife and my pupils than I have in Christ” (ref. Table Talk, 2397b).

 

“It does not matter how Christ behaved – what He taught is all that matters” (ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126).

MARTIN LUTHER ON THE 10 COMMANDMENTS

 

“[The commandments] only purpose is to show man his impotence to do good and to teach him to despair of himself” (ref: Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), Volume III, p. 364).

“We must remove the Decalogue out of sight and heart” (ref. De Wette 4, 188)

“If we allow them – the Commandments – any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies” (ref. Comm. ad Galat, p.310).

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (ref. Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol. VI., p. 160).

MARTIN LUTHER ON THE MATERIAL NECESSITY OF GOOD WORKS

“Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.” (ref. Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. III, pg. 47).

 

“There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.” (ref. Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128).

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON THE IMPORTANCE OF FREE-WILL

 

“…with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, (man) has no ‘free-will’, but is a captive, prisoner and bondslave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan.” (ref. From the essay, ‘Bondage of the Will,’ ‘Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 190).

 

“Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (ref. ‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267).

“His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (ref. De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will).

“No good work happens as the result of one’s own wisdom; but everything must happen in a stupor . . . Reason must be left behind for it is the enemy of faith.” (ref. Trischreden, Weimer VI, 143, 25-35).

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON CHRISTIAN LIVING

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” (ref. ‘Let Your Sins Be Strong, from ‘The Wittenberg Project;’ ‘The Wartburg Segment’, translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. – Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404))

 

“Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (ref. J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248).

 

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND CHARITY

 

“If some were to teach doctrines contradicting an article of faith clearly grounded in Scripture and believed throughout the world by all Christendom, such as the articles we teach children in the Creed — for example, if anyone were to teach that Christ is not God, but a mere man and like other prophets, as the Turks and the Anabaptists hold — such teachers should not be tolerated, but punished as blasphemers . . . By this procedure no one is compelled to believe, for he can still believe what he will; but he is forbidden to teach and to blaspheme.” (ref. Luther’s Works [LW], Vol. 13, 61-62)

“That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it . . . Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine . . . For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? . . . Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches . . . and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound . . . to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders . . . Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then . . . we conclude that . . . the stubborn sectaries must be put to death.” (ref. pamphlet of 1536; in Johannes Janssen, History of the German People From the Close of the Middle Ages, 16 volumes, translated by A.M. Christie, St. Louis: B. Herder, 1910 [orig. 1891]; Vol. X, 222-223)

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON SOCIAL JUSTICE

“Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294).

 

“To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!” – “If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294).

“Like the drivers of donkeys, who have to belabor the donkeys incessantly with rods and whips, or they will not obey, so must the ruler do with the people; they must drive, beat throttle, hang, burn, behead and torture, so as to make themselves feared and to keep the people in check.” (ref. Erlangen Vol 15, Pg. 276).

ADOLF HITLER MARTIN LUTHER ON THE LOVE OF JEWS

 

“My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire… Second, that all their books– their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible– be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted…Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country…Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it… He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away”. (ref. Martin Luther; On the Jews and Their Lies, translated by Martin H. Bertram, Fortress Press, 1955).

“Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (ref. About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290).

“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (ref. Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413).

 

“The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502).

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON THE SANCTITY AND DIGNITY OF MARRIAGE

“If the husband is unwilling, there is another who is; if the wife is unwilling, then let the maid come.” (ref. Of Married Life).

 

“Suppose I should counsel the wife of an impotent man, with his consent, to giver herself to another, say her husband’s brother, but to keep this marriage secret and to ascribe the children to the so-called putative father. The question is: Is such a women in a saved state? I answer, certainly.” (ref. On Marriage).

“It is not in opposition to the Holy Scriptures for a man to have several wives.” (ref. De Wette, Vol. 2, p. 459).

 

“The word and work of God is quite clear, viz., that women are made to be either wives or prostitutes.” (ref. On Married Life).

“In spite of all the good I say of married life, I will not grant so much to nature as to admit that there is no sin in it. .. no conjugal due is ever rendered without sin. The matrimonial duty is never performed without sin.” (ref. Weimar, Vol 8. Pg. 654. In other words for Luther the matrimonial act is “a sin differing in nothing from adultery and fornication.” ibid. What then is the purpose of marriage for Luther you may ask? Luther affirms that it’s simply to satisfy one’s sexual cravings “The body asks for a women and must have it” or again “To marry is a remedy for fornication” – Grisar, “Luther”, vol. iv, pg. 145).

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON THE QUALITY OF EDIFYING SPEECH

“What harm could it do if a man told a good lusty lie in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian Churches?” (ref. Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 373).

 

“To lie in a case of necessity or for convenience or in excuse – such lying would not be against God; He was ready to take such lies on Himself” (ref. Lenz: Briefwechsel, Vol. 1. Pg. 375).

 

MARTIN LUTHER ON HUMILITY

 

“St. Augustine or St. Ambrosius cannot be compared with me.” (ref. Erlangen, Vol. 61, pg. 422).

 

“What I teach and write remains true even though the whole world should fall to pieces over it” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 18, Pg. 401).

MARTIN LUTHER ON THE VALUE OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

 

“To my mind it (the book of the Apocalypse) bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it.” (ref. ammtliche Werke, 63, pp. 169-170, ‘The Facts About Luther,’ O’Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 203).

 

“If your Papist annoys you with the word (‘alone’ – Rom. 3:28), tell him straightway, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so: Papist and ass are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil’s thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom.” (ref. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127,’The Facts About Luther,’ O’Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 201. Cf. Also J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 138).

 

“The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible.” (ref. The Facts About Luther, O’Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 202).

 

“…the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical.” (ref. ‘Preface to the New Testament,’ ed. Dillenberger, p. 19. – Cf. Also Jean Janssen, L’Allemagne et la Reforme. (Trans. E. Paris, Plon, 1887-1911). Vol II, Pg. 218). …”

Source:

http://www.davidlgray.info/2013/09/11/500-years-of-protestantism-the-33-most-ridiculous-things-martin-luther-ever-wrote/

 

Conclusion

Please note carefully that each of the above is written by “Martin Luther himself” in his own writings. So, is this the man God used to remove “7 books from the Roman Catholic Website” to make it “66 books”?

Also, which of these doctrines above are “Sola Scriptura”?

If Martin Luther can be forgiven for all these ‘dirty quotes/teachings’, Christ Centered Universalism even if it is a heresy by your claim does not entail such profanities.

Also, Roman Catholic saints are more respectful of God than to write as such.

Best is, the First Christianity Saints I quote who existed before Roman Catholicism itself never taught any such obviously wrong doctrines nor blasphemed God in any Way.

They just hoped that Christ might Forgive All someday by His Mercy by which all things are possible as one of the “Books from the Bible which Martin Luther removed” Hints as follows:

 

Indeed, here is the Bible Verse Proving that with God’s Mercy “nothing is impossible” and that “all things are possible to Him”, to quote:

“23 But thou hast mercy upon all [Compare:Romans 11:32]; for thou canst do all things, and winkest at the sins of men, because they should amend. 24 For thou lovest all the things that are, and abhorrest nothing which thou hast made: for never wouldest thou have made any thing, if thou hadst hated it. 25 And how could any thing have endured, if it had not been thy will? or been preserved, if not called by thee? 26 But thou sparest all: for they are thine, O Lord, thou lover of souls.” (Wisdom of Solomon 11:23 – 26, King James Bible Version, KJV)

Source: https://m.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Wisdom-of-Solomon-Chapter-11/

Example First Christianity Quote:

“… 119. Now let the Manichaean have his word. “I hold that the devil is the creator of our flesh.” The Lord will answer him: “What, then, doest thou in the heavenly places? Depart, go thy way to thy creator. ‘My will is that they be with Me, whom my Father hath given Me.’ Thou, Manichaean, holdest thyself for a creature of the devil; hasten, then, to his abode, the place of fire and brimstone, where the fire thereof is not quenched, lest ever the punishment have an end.” … 123 . What verdict do we look for from Christ? That do I know. Do I say, what verdict will He give? Nay, He hath already pronounced sentence. We have it in our hands. “Let all,” saith He, “honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son, honoreth not the Father, Who hath sent Him. ” 124. If the sentence please you not, appeal to the Father, CANCEL the JUDGMENT that the Father hath given. … For HE is the FOUNDATION of ALL, and is the head of the Church, in Whom our common nature according to the flesh has merited the right to the heavenly throne. For the flesh is honored as having a share in Christ Who is God, and the nature of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE is HONORED as HAVING a SHARE in the FLESH . As we then sit in Him by fellowship in our fleshly nature, so also He, Who through the assumption of our flesh was made a curse for us (seeing that a curse could not fall upon the blessed Son of God), so, I say, He through the OBEDIENCE of ALL will become subject in us; when the GENTILE has BELIEVED, and the JEW has ACKNOWLEDGED Him Whom he CRUCIFIED; when the MANICHAEN has WORSHIPED Him, Whom he has NOT BELIEVED to have come in the flesh; when the ARIAN has CONFESSED Him to be Almighty, Whom HE has DENIED; when, lastly, the wisdom of God, His justice, peace, love, RESURRECTION, is IN ALL. Through His own works and through the manifold forms of virtues Christ will be in us in subjection to the Father. And when, with VICE RENOUNCED and CRIME at an END, one spirit in the HEART of ALL PEOPLES has begun to cleave to God in all things, then will God be ALL and in ALL …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, First Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Teacher of St. Augustine (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Selected Works and Letters, Book II Chapter 13 Point 119 Page 572, Chapter 14 Points 123 – 124 Page 575, Book V Chapter 14 Point 180 – Point 181 Page 725)

 

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

P/S: A Special Focus

 

Martin Luther himself rejected or did not consider it a heresy if a Christian does not believe in the “Book of Revelation” (i.e. the “Apocalypse” or “Apocalypse of John”) meaning that if a Christian doesn’t believe in Revelation 20:10, it’s okay according to him, to quote:

“… “To my mind it (the book of the Apocalypse) bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it.” (ref. ammtliche Werke, 63, pp. 169-170, ‘The Facts About Luther,’ O’Hare, TAN Books, 1987, p. 203). …”

 

Source:

http://www.davidlgray.info/2013/09/11/500-years-of-protestantism-the-33-most-ridiculous-things-martin-luther-ever-wrote/

 

 

 

 

So, if Martin Luther can be forgiven for even “questioning and even disbelieving the canonicity of the Book of Revelation”, why not Christian Universalists who do not question Revelation 20:10 but only view it differently be still a Christian?

 

 

 

 

The quote above is well documented and even acknowledged by Protestants to be real, other example sources:

 

https://www.defendingthebride.com/bb/deuterocanonical5.html

 

http://www.catholic365.com/article/4337/martin-luther-said-my-judgment-is-not-mine-but-gods.html

 

http://discerningthetimes.me/?p=7370

 

Here are more proofs from a particular Source regarding this Martin Luther’s Claim against then “Bible Book of Revelation as Scripture”:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This reference is to Luther’s Preface to the Revelation of Saint John (1522). It was included in his translation of the New Testament between 1522 to 1527. The preface was rewritten in 1530 and subsequent editions of Luther’s Bible use the 1530 rewrite. An English translation was included in The Works of Martin Luther Volume Six [(Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press, 1932), p. 488-489] (pdf) and also in LW 35 398-399. An English translation of the 1530 rewrite can also be found in The Works of Martin Luther Volume Six [(Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press, 1932), p. 479-488] (pdf).

It’s highly likely Father O’Hare did not actually translate this material into English, but rather used a secondary source.  There were English sources previous to O’Hare that used a similar quote. O’Hare definitely utilized John Alzog, so he may be presenting an edited version of Alzog’s similar Luther quote (O’Hare actually cites Alzog only a few paragraphs later). If this basic outline of Shoebat.com’s documentation is correct, it typifies how many of Rome’s defenders do research in regard to Luther- both then and now.

Context
The Works of Martin Luther Volume Six [(Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press, 1932), p. 488-489] (pdf)

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own ideas, and would bind no man to my opinion or judgment; I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. First and foremost, the Apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear, plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the Gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak of Christ and His deeds without figures and visions; but there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so out and out with visions and figures. And so I think of it almost as I do of the Fourth Book of Esdras, and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.

Moreover, he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly, — more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important, — and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will deal likewise with him. Again, they are to be blessed who keep what is written therein; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. It is just the same as if we had it not, and there are many far better books for us to keep. Many of the fathers, too, rejected this book of old, though St. Jerome, to be sure, praises it highly and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words; though he cannot prove this at all, and his praise is, at many points, too mild.

Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think. My spirit cannot fit itself into this book. There is one sufficient reason for me not to think highly of it,-Christ is not taught or known in it; but to teach Christ is the thing which an apostle is bound, above all else, to do, as He says in Acts 1:8, “Ye shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which give me Christ, clearly and purely,

Conclusion
From the aspect of bare tedium, Shoebat.com’s Luther quote consists of three sentences sifted out of three paragraphs, and those three sentences aren’t exactly in the order in which the context presents them. Giving whoever translated this the benefit of the doubt, it may have been translated loosely. From the aspect of tedious consistency, I doubt that Shoebat.com actually has gone after those whom Luther refers to above, “Many of the fathers, too, rejected this book of old.” The editors of Luther’s Works state,

The canonicity of Revelation was disputed by Marcion, Caius of Rome, Dionysius of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, and the Synod of Laodicea in A.D. 360, though it was accepted by others as Eusebius reports. Cf. p. 400, n. 63. Erasmus had noted in connection with chapter 4 that the Greeks regarded the book as apocryphal. WA, DB 7, 646, n. 22. (LW 35:399).

Shoebat.com goes on to say that “No serious minded Christian who has the new birth from above, will ever question the authenticity of any book of the Holy Scripture, most especially the New Testament. By the words of Holy Scripture, Luther has brought damnation upon himself and this should serve as a warning to others.” One wonders how Shoebat.com reads church history. It appears Cardinal Cajetan and Desiderius Erasmus were not Christians either.

From the aspect of tedious fairness, Luther above states,”Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think.” In other words, Luther didn’t really care if anyone agreed with him on this. In fact, Luther’s attitude toward Revelation is sparse in writings previous to 1530 (when this was written).

Now those are the tedious reasons why Shoebat.com didn’t do a fair job in presenting this Luther quote. The essential blunder though is not doing any further research about Luther’s prefaces. As mentioned above,  this preface to Revelation was included in his translation of the New Testament between 1522 to 1527, but was then rewritten in 1530, and subsequent editions of Luther’s Bible use the 1530 rewrite. The rewrite is hardly ever referred to within anti-Luther polemics. John Warwick Montgomery points out,

Luther’s short and extremely negative Preface to the Revelation of St. John was completely dropped after 1522, and the Reformer replaced it with a long and entirely commendatory Preface (1530). Because “some of the ancient fathers held the opinion that it was not the work of St. John the apostle,” Luther leaves the authorship question open, but asserts that he can no longer “let the book alone,” for “we see, in this book, that through and above all plagues and beasts and evil angels Christ is with His saints, and wins the victory at last.” In his original, 1532 Preface to Ezekiel, Luther made a cross-reference to the Revelation of St. John with no hint of criticism; in his later, much fuller Preface to Ezekiel, he concludes on the note that if one wishes to go into prophetic study, more deeply, “the Revelation of John can also help.” [John Warwick Montgomery, “Lessons From Luther On The Inerrancy Of Holy Writ’s,” Westminster Theological Journal Volume 36, 295.]

In the revised preface, Luther states there are

different types of prophecy in Christendom. The book of Revelation is of the kind that foretells things to come. He states,

The third type does it without either words or interpretations, exclusively with images and figures, like this book of Revelation and like the dreams, visions, and images that many holy people have had from the Holy Spirit—as Peter in Acts 2[:17] preaches from Joel [2:28], “Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.” (LW 35:400)

Luther then goes on to give a basic interpretation of the text, applying it to his times. He concludes:

With this kind of an interpretation we can profit by this book and make good use of it. First, for our comfort! We can rest assured that neither force nor lies, neither wisdom nor holiness, neither tribulation nor suffering shall suppress Christendom, but it will gain the victory and conquer at last. Second, for our warning! [We can be on guard] against the great, perilous, and manifold offense that inflicts itself upon Christendom. Because these mighty and imposing powers are to fight against Christendom, and it is to be deprived of outward shape and concealed under so many tribulations and heresies and other faults, is impossible for the natural reason to recognize Christendom. On the contrary, natural reason falls away and takes offense. It calls that “the Christian Church” which is really the worst enemy of the Christian Church. Similarly, it calls those persons damned heretics who are really the true Christian Church. This has happened before, under the papacy, under Mohammed, indeed with all the heretics. Thus they lose this article [of the Creed], “I believe in the holy Christian Church.” [LW 35:409-410]

 

 

Source for both Images and quotes above:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2016/01/luther-on-revelation-i-feel-aversion-to.html

 

Comment: If you read Martin Luther’s own words in each given quote above, there is NO 100% acceptance of the Book of Revelation as Scripture in “his own words”. The Protestant author is dubiously trying to find a defence to ‘save Martin Luther’ but those words just doesn’t exist. All that Martin Luther keeps doing repeatedly is imply that “he personally rejected the Book of Revelation as Scripture” (as his quote at the start itself proves and he ‘never recanted it’) while allows for his ‘fellow Christians’ to ‘accept it if they want’ and thus ‘gives flexibility for protestants to believe it if they wish to’.

That’s like Martin Luther saying that ‘he has rejected it’ but it can be ‘beneficial to some Christians if they want to accept it’. (as he thinks that God directed him to reject it as per his quote prior “…Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think. My spirit cannot fit itself into this book. There is one sufficient reason for me not to think highly of it,-Christ is not taught or known in it; but to teach Christ is the thing which an apostle is bound, above all else, to do, as He says in Acts 1:8, “Ye shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which give me Christ, clearly and purely, …”) .

The Bible Says this to anyone who ‘rejects the Book of Revelation Prophecy’ is that they will have no part in the Elect’s Salvation nor in the “Book of Life” in Verse below, to quote:

“and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:19, NKJV)

Did you notice that apart from Blessed Martin Luther, these ancient saints & herertics have also put themselves in danger for apparently rejecting the Book of Revelation? To quote from a quote prior:

“…The canonicity of Revelation was disputed by Marcion, Caius of Rome, Dionysius of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, and the Synod of Laodicea in A.D. 360, though it was accepted by others as Eusebius reports. Cf. p. 400, n. 63. Erasmus had noted in connection with chapter 4 that the Greeks regarded the book as apocryphal. WA, DB 7, 646, n. 22. (LW 35:399). …”

 

 

I’m not saying 100% that Martin Luther, Dionysius of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, and the Synod of Laodicea are definitely going to be rejected from the Elect Salvation but showing the “Truth” that they are certainly in danger of facing so as per Revelation 22:19. Also, these Christian Universalists you condemn did NOT reject the Book of Revelation at all but interpret the Verses differently which is neither adding nor removing the words of these Prophecies but just ‘interpreting it’ using other First Christianity Scripture or Saints.

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like your favourite saint is “eternal hell bound” by your analysis but I believe he is an example of God’s Mercy as God can still save him but for him to be in the Elect Salvation, it looks difficult, right? Isn’t it sad that the biggest Saint in Protestanism despite Billions of Protestants are converted due to him as the Source since 1500s may not be part of the Elect Salvation unless God Forgives Abundantly for these Serious Errors?.

 

 

 

 

 

A Haunting Question Remains:

 

I don’t believe in “that Universalism” as those who die in unbelief will not be part of God’s Elect Salvation and will come into Judgment which is a different topic.

 

Please answer the question at hand:

 

Is it considered removing from the Book of Revelation since Martin Luther does not affirm that Revelation 20:10 as Scripture as per Revelation 22:19?

 

Universalism or Eternal Hell or Annihilation theory cannot change the Elect as they will believe one of these. So, no one who could be saved can be deceived otherwise as Predestination Doctrine itself teaches.

 

However, does rejecting the Book of Revelation as Scripture prove rejection from the Book of Life as directly implied to Martin Luther based on Revelation 22:19 proving that he is a non-Elect?

 

I want to see your Bible Verse argument proving that Martin Luther is an elect even if he rejects the Book of Revelation as Scripture. I have no problem admitting Christian Universalists who reject the Book of Revelation as Scripture are non-Elect. This brings an interesting question: Protestanism was formed by a non-Elect if that’s the case?

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who are “the dead” in 1 Peter 4:5 – 6?

 

“4With respect to this, they think it strange of you not running with them into the same overflow of debauchery, speaking evil of you, 5who will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For to this end the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but they might live in the spirit according to God.” (1 Peter 4:4 – 6, Berean Literal Bible)

 

Regarding whether it’s the “spiritually dead” or the “physically dead” is being referred to in 1 Peter 4:6 to whom the Gospel is Preached, I point them to the Verse before in 1 Peter 4:5 where it’s the ‘same dead’. In other words, since “the dead” in 1 Peter 4:5 is the same dead in 1 Peter 4:6 and we know clearly that the phrase “the living and the dead” (in 1 Peter 4:5) points “the dead” to refer to the physically dead”, hence 1 Peter 4:6’s “the dead” must likewise refer to the “physically dead” too, right?

 

In the “Original Koine Greek Bible” (not a translation) in images below, we can clearly see that “the dead” is all that is Written in both 1 Peter 4:5 and 1 Peter 4:6 and it’s the ‘same words’ in both Verses ‘as it is Written’. Translators have added their theological bias by adding the words “are dead” or “now dead” etc. which do not exist in the Original Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More linguistic details:

 

1 Peter’s 4:5’s “the dead” —> “Adjective Accusative Masculine Plural”

 

while

 

1 Peter 4:6’s “the dead” —> “Adjective Dative Masculine plural”

 

The only difference between the two dead is one is “Accusative” while the other is “Dative”. So, what does “Accusative” or “Dative” mean in Biblical Koine Greek? [These are “Cases”]

 

It seems to be a ‘grammar’ rule where the “accusative adjective” refers to a “direct object” while the “dative adjective” refers to an “indirect object”.

 

 

 

 

To quote:

 

  1. Accusative Case

 

“… A noun, pronoun, or adjective in the accusative case is mostly used as a direct object or the object of a preposition. The accusative case is the most common as it is the most general in its unaffected meaning.In both ancient and modern Greek, nouns, adjectives, verb participles, articles, and pronouns are used in the accusative case. The accusative marker used depends on gender, number, and declension. …”

 

  1. Dative Case

 

“… In dative case has functions in classical Greek. In biblical and classical Greek, the dative case was quite versatile. It took on the role of other cases such as genitive. Dative is used for indirect objects, instruments of action, and other uses. In contemporary Greek, the dative case has been replaced by the accusative, but the dative is still found in certain phrases and expression. The dative case was used regularly up until a few decades ago. In modern Greek, the accusative case of a word is used where the dative case used to be. …”

Source for both definitions above: https://www.greekboston.com/learn-speak/five-cases/

 

 

  1. What is the meaning of “Direct Object” (Accusative Cases) vs “Indirect Object” (Dative Cases)?

 

To quote:

 

Consider the sentence, “I gave Dad the newspaper.”

 

Dad = “Indirect Object” = “Dative Case”

 

Paper = “Direct Object” = “Accusative Case”

 

Source: http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson13.htm

 

This means that ‘Dative and Accusative Cases’ only point to the word as to whether it’s a ‘primary thing referred to in a sentence or a secondary thing’ (crudely speaking) where it does not change “the dead” from ‘physically’ to ‘spiritually’ or vice versa.

 

Truly God Alone knows.

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

Other Points from Church History, please consider:

1) Christ never corrected their belief in a Purgatorial Hell (Gehenna) Universalism till the last penny only as He Himself Taught that (in Matthew 5:22’s Gehenna till the last penny in Matthew 5:26) while also regarding Gehenna, Christ never corrected their belief in that the Messiah (Lord Jesus Christ Himself though they did not recognize Him then) will not only be able to Save souls from Hell now (Hades/Sheol) but also from the Final Lake of Fire (Gehenna/Second Death) later, to quote this well known Fact regarding ‘Judaism too’:

 

(i) What’s the Difference between Gehenna and Sheol (Hades)?

To quote (Page 34):

 

“Hanhart (1966:32) states that according to Jeremias, however, it is fundamental

for our understanding of the New Testament to make a sharp distinction between Hades

and Gehenna.

 

Hades is used exclusively for the interim period, Gehenna on the other side

for a state of punishment after the last judgment. In Hades, the punishment is provisional, in Gehenna eternal.”

 

(ii) Can the Messiah [Lord Jesus Christ] Save from Gehenna (the Final Judgment, Lake of Fire) itself?

To quote (Page 38):

 

“Bernard (1915:290) quotes two passages from the Bereshith Rabba to show that this idea was prominent in Jewish literature. He is, however, unsure of the dating of the literature.

 

Nevertheless, it still demonstrates the basic purpose of the descent:

 

‘When they are bound, they that are in Gehinnom, saw the light of the Messiah, they

rejoiced to receive him’; and ‘This is that which stands written, We shall rejoice and exult thee.

 

When? When the captives climb out of hell, and the Shechinah at their head.’

The only difference here is that the captives are in Gehinnom and not Sheol.”

 

Source for both Quotes are from this phD Dissertation (link below, please read it). Indeed, the phD thesis I referred to may be found in link below (image too):

https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1

I don’t subscribe to a lot of what the author deduces but it’s a good start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Blessed St. Maximus the Confessor regarding the Post Mortem Evangelization – The Gospel being Preached to the Dead even now based on 1 Peter 4:5 – 6

To Quote:

“… An elaborate teaching of the descent of Christ into Hades is found in Maximus the Confessor. In his analysis, Maximus takes as a starting point the words of St. Peter: ‘For this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit’[26].

In Maximus’s view, St. Peter does not speak about the Old Testament righteous, but about those sinners who, back in their lifetime, were punished for their evil deeds:

 

Some say that Scriptures call ‘dead’ those who died before the coming of Christ, for instance, those who were at the time of the flood, at Babel, in Sodom, in Egypt, as well as others who in various times and in various ways received various punishments and the terrible misfortune of divine damnation. These people were punished not so much for their ignorance of God as for the offences they imposed on one another.

It was to them, according to [St Peter] that the great message of salvation was preached when they were already damned as men in the flesh, that is, when they received, through life in the flesh, punishment for crimes against one another, so that they could live according to God by the spirit, that is, being in hell, they accepted the preaching of the knowledge of God, believing in the Saviour who descended into hell to save the dead. So, in order to understand [this] passage in [Holy Scriptures] let us take it in this way: the dead, damned in the human flesh, were preached to precisely for the purpose that they may live according to God by the spirit[27].

 

Thus, according to Maximus’s teaching, punishments suffered by sinners ‘in the human flesh’ were necessary so that they may live ‘according to God by the spirit’. Therefore, these punishments, whether troubles and misfortunes in their lifetime or pains in hell, had pedagogical and reforming significance. Moreover, Maximus stresses that in damning them, God used not so much a religious as a moral criterion, for people were punished ‘not so much for their ignorance of God as for the offences they imposed on one another’. In other words, the religious or ideological convictions of a particular person were not decisive, but his actions with regard to his neighbours….” (Pages 3 and 4 by in the PDF as uploaded by a St. James Orthodox Church, link below):

Source for the Quote & Write Up above:

https://stjamesorthodox.org/files/articles/Bishop-Hilarion—Christ-the-Conqueror-of-Hades.pdf

3) The recent Infamous Protestant Christian Saint of India, Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh agrees to this Post-Mortem evangelization view, to quote:

  1. a) Relatively Good Atheists – an Atheist with a Reasonably Good Moral Life may be Saved in the Spirit World

“… DEATH OF A PHILOSOPHER … The soul of a German philosopher entered into the world of spirits and saw from afar the incomparable glory of the spiritual world, and the boundless happiness of its people. He was delighted with what he saw, but his stubborn intellectualism stood in the way of his entering into it, and enjoying its happiness. Instead of admitting that it was real, he argued thus with himself, “There is no doubt at all that I see all this, but what proof is there that it has objective existence, and is not some illusion conjured up by my mind? From end to end of all this scene I will apply the tests of logic, philosophy and science, and then only will I be convinced that it has a reality of its own, and is no illusion.” … . I asked one of the angels what the end of this man would be, and he replied “If this man’s life had been altogether bad, then he would at once have joined the spirits of darkness, but he is not without a moral sense, so for a very long time he will wander blindly round in the dim light of the lower parts of the intermediate state, and keep on bumping his philosophical head, until tired of his foolishness, he repents. Then he will be ready to receive the necessary instruction from the angels appointed for that purpose, and, when instructed, will he be fit to enter into the fuller light of God in the higher sphere…” – Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh

Source [Translated by Rev. T. E. Riddle of the New Zealand Presbyterian Mission, Kharar, Punjab, from Urdu into English, c. 1926]: https://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

  1. b) Relatively Good Non-Christians

A sincerely wrong non-Christian Idolater who has a reasonably sound moral compass may have a chance in the Spirit World too if he doesn’t hold too strongly to his false beliefs, to quote:

 

“… THE MANIFESTATION OF CHRIST … I saw in a vision the spirit of an idolater on reaching the world of spirits begin at once to search for his god. Then the saints said to him, “There is no god here save the One True God, and Christ, who is His manifestation.” At this, the man was a good deal astonished, but being a sincere seeker after truth, he frankly admitted that he had been in error. He eagerly sought to know the correct view of truth, and asked if he might see the Christ. Shortly after this Christ manifested Himself in a dim light to him, and to others who had newly arrived in the world of spirits, because at this stage they could not have endured a full exhibition of His glory, for His glory is so surpassing that even the angels look on Him with difficulty, and cover their faces with their wings (Isaiah 6:9). When He does reveal Himself to any one He takes into account the particular stage of progress to which that soul has attained, so He appears dimly, or in the fuller light of His glory, that the sight of Him may be endured. So, when these spirits saw Christ in this dim but attractive light, they were filled with a joy and peace, which is beyond our power to describe. Bathed in the rays of His life-giving light, and with the waves of His love, which constantly flow out from Him, flowing over them, all their error was washed away. Then with all their hearts, they acknowledged Him as the Truth, and found healing, and, bowing in lowly adoration before Him, thanked and praised Him. And the saints, who had been appointed for their instruction; also rejoiced over them. …” – Blessed Sadhu Sundar Singh

 

Source [Translated by Rev. T. E. Riddle of the New Zealand Presbyterian Mission, Kharar, Punjab, from Urdu into English, c. 1926]:

https://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

 

 

 

 

 

4) Shepherd of Hermas Scripture

 

“… Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? These are they who have heard the word, and wish to be baptized in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and again walk after their own wicked desires.” She finished her exposition of the tower. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

So,

 

“…These are they who have heard the word, and wish to be baptized in the name of the Lord …” = Non-Christians who Heard the Gospel but never got Baptized though they may have wished to because,

 

“…but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and again walk after their own wicked desires. …” = They did not want to Believe and Practice Christianity because the Demands of Its Purity is too High and that they don’t want to abandon their past ways, i.e. they died unrepentant on earth. Can you see that the Hope of the Spirit World Salvation also includes them as part of “all these rejected stones”?

 

 

 

 

The Hope Part:

 

“… She finished her exposition of the tower. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “Is repentance possible for all those stones which have been cast away and did not fit into the building of the tower, and will they yet have a place in this tower?” “Repentance,” said she, “is yet possible, but in this tower they cannot find a suitable place. But in another and much inferior place they will be laid, and that, too, only when they have been tortured and completed the days of their sins. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have partaken of the righteous Word. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the thought of repenting of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

An Important Note: Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens is discussed further with proof quotes in link below:

 

https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/christ-centered-universalism-mystery-in-first-christianity/amp

 

 

5) The Bible Verses below may refer to this Spirit World Salvation of such non-Christians by His Grace after they had endured their Judgments there first accordingly for ‘spurning on His Word’ and ‘had rebelled against the words of God’ first:

 

“There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death, Prisoners in misery and chains, Because they had rebelled against the words of God and spurned the counsel of the Most High. Therefore He humbled their heart with labor; They stumbled and there was none to help. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble; He saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death and broke their bands apart. Let them give thanks to the LORD for His lovingkindness, And for His wonders to the sons of men!.” (Psalm 107:10 – 15, NASB)

 

The Phrase ‘Shadow of Death’ in Verses above Prove that this is the ‘Afterlife or Spirit World Context’ and so the Bible Verses above clearly Describe afterlife Salvation toward those wicked (i.e. those who rebelled against God too & went to ‘Hell-Hades’ or ‘Punishment Regions called the Shadow of Death in the above’), Verses (please note the Phrase ‘Shadow of Death’ Carefully in each of these Holy Scripture):

“19I would have been as though I had not been.

I would have been carried from the womb to the grave.

20Are not my days few?

Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,

21Before I go to the place from which I shall not return,

To the land of darkness and the shadow of death,

22A land as dark as darkness itself,

As the shadow of death, without any order,

Where even the light is like darkness.’ ” (Job 10:19 – 22, NKJV)

 

“Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?” – God Himself Defines this Context that the ‘Shadow of Death’ refers to the ‘Spirit World’ (in Job 38:17, NKJV)

 

The Phrase ‘Shadow of Death’ in Verses above Prove that this is the ‘Afterlife or Spirit World Context’ and so the Bible Verses above clearly Describe afterlife Salvation toward those wicked (i.e. those who rebelled against God too & went to ‘Hell-Hades’ or ‘Punishment Regions called the Shadow of Death in the above’) as First Christianity taught that this is the Meaning of that Biblical Phrase, to quote:

 

“… For as the Lord “WENT AWAY in the midst of the SHADOW of DEATH” [Ps. 23:4, Ps 107:10 – 15], WHERE the SOULS of the DEAD were, …” (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXI:2).

 

Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm

 

6) The Context of 1 Peter 4:5 – 6 may just be a continuation of what happened in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 till today

From the “Epistle of the Apostles”

 

“… He [Lord Jesus Christ] said unto us: Verily I say unto you, that I have obtained the whole power of my Father, that I may bring back into light them that dwell in darkness, them that are in corruption into incorruption, them that are in death into life, and that I may loose them that are in fetters. For that which is impossible with men, is possible with the Father. I am the hope of them that despair, the helper of them that have no saviour, the wealth of the poor, the health of the sick, and the resurrection of the dead…” (Epistle of the Apostles, Point 21)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apostolorum.html

 

From the “Odes of Solomon”

“… Sheol saw me and was shattered, and Death ejected me and many with me. I have been vinegar and bitterness to it, and I went down with it as far as its depth. Then the feet and the head it released, because it was not able to endure my face. And I made a congregation of living among his dead; and I spoke with them by living lips; in order that my word may not be unprofitable. And those who had died ran towards me; and they cried out and said, Son of God, have pity on us. And deal with us according to Your kindness, and bring us out from the bonds of darkness. And open for us the door by which we may come out to You; for we perceive that our death does not touch You. May we also be saved with You, because You are our Savior. Then I heard their voice, and placed their faith in my heart. And I placed my name upon their head, because they are free and they are mine.Hallelujah…” (Odes of Solomon 42:11 – 20)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/odes.html

Note: Hades (Greek) = Sheol (Hebrew) = Hell now (in English)

St. Cyril of Alexandria fully affirms that the Context of 1 Peter 3:19 – 20 refers to Christ Saving in Hell toward the Wicked too, to quote:

“… What occasion will we still have for weeping? On the contrary, will not what has happened to us, thanks to the Savior, cause us boundless rejoicing? He it was Who showed the way of salvation not only to us, but also went as herald to the once disobedient spirits of the underworld, as Peter says (1 Pet. 3:19-20). For it would not have done for His loving-kindness to be shown only to some; the manifestation of the gift had to extended to all of nature. For He spoke opportunely through the Prophets, “One part shall be rained upon, and the part on which I shall not rain shall be dried up.” (Amos 4:7) But the word which befits the Savior is: “Come to me, all you who labor and are weary, and I will give you rest.” (Mt. 11:28) Having proclaimed His message, then, to the spirits in the underworld and having said to those in fetters, “Come forth!” and to those in darkness, “Show yourselves!” (cf. Isa. 49:9) He raised up the temple of Himself in three days, (cf. Jn. 2:19) and renewed for nature even the ascent into heaven, presenting Himelf to the Father as a kind of first-fruits of humanity, having endowed those on earth with a share of the Spirit as a pledge of grace. (cf. 2 Cor. 5:5) (Festal Letter 2.8) …” …” – Blessed St. Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria, Titles: The Pillar of Faith; Seal of all the Fathers; Bishop, Confessor, and Doctor of the Church (c. 376 AD – c. 444 AD)

Source: https://classicalchristianity.com/category/holyfathers/post-mortem/

And how reliable is he?

 

“… St. Cyril received an important recognition of his preachings by the Second Council of Constantinople (553 d.C.) which declared: St. Cyril who announced the right faith of Christians” (Anathematism XIV, Denzinger et Schoenmetzer 437). …”

 

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria

 

7) The Preaching of the Gospel in Hades was not only for the Righteous but also for the Wicked or “unjust” spirits of the past but only after they underwent their ‘afterlife Judgment’ & were ‘not disobedient anymore’. So, this itself is proof that the Gospel was Preached to those once disobedient in Hades & the one who got the interpretation right above (St. Clement of Alexandria) in accordance to what is Written in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 above Reveals that Christ’s Saving Power in Hades is not a one time event but is ‘always at work’ (especially toward some fallen Christians & non-Christian good as the Visions of Swedenborg or more accurate interpretations in the Spirit World Visions of the late Sadhu Sundar Singh clearly agree as discussed in previous posts):

 

“… “it is evident that those, too, who were outside of the Law, having lived rightly, in consequence of the peculiar’ nature of the voice, though they are in HADES and in ward, on hearing the voice of the Lord, whether that of His own person or that acting through His apostles, with all speed turned and believed. For we remember that the Lord is “the power of God,” and power can never be weak. So I think it is demonstrated that the God being good, and the Lord powerful, they save with a righteousness and equality which extend to ALL that TURN to Him, WHETHER HERE or ELSEWHERE. For it is not here alone that the active power of God is beforehand, but it is EVERYWHERE and is ALWAYS at WORK…” – Blessed St. Clement of Alexandria, Head of the First Christian Bible School at Alexandria (c.150 AD – c. 215 AD, Stromata, Book 6, Chapter VI)

Translation Source:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-stromata-book6.html

 

8) Note: Such a final chance given by God is uttered Mysteriously in the Prophecy of the Book of Enoch too where such may be ‘Saved with no honour’ (hence not referring to the Christian Salvation or ‘the Elect’ in Verse below) on Judgment Day either toward those in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) or prior or both, to quote:

 

“1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect, And the light of days shall abide upon them, And glory and honour shall turn to the holy, 2 On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits: And He will cause the others to witness (this) That they may repent And forgo the works of their hands. 3 They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits, Yet through His name shall they be saved, And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them, For His compassion is great. 4 And He is righteous also in His judgement, And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself: At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him. 5 And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.” (Book of Enoch, Chapter 50)

 

Translation Source: http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2126

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

Anonymous Christian

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