What is the “Worm that does not die”?
It’s not a human soul but a “punishment worm” (be it literal or metaphoric which doesn’t die in that fire), hence it’s called a “fiery worm” too (and not that it’s immortal) as First Christianity taught this:
“… And being present at His judicial decision, all, both MEN and ANGELS and DEMONS, shall utter one voice, saying, “RIGHTEOUS is Thy JUDGMENT.” … since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal (age-during) bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal (age-during) punishment. . And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them …” – Hippolytus of Rome (AGAINST PLATO, ON THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE, Point 3)
Please allow me to quote First Christianity regarding the ‘true meaning of the worm that never dies & the fire that is not quenched’ as “no prophecy of Holy Scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).
I will quote and believe the same as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeous of Lyons as explained in detail below from their “own writings”:
“He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.” (Justin Martyr, CHAPTER LII — CERTAIN FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY, First Apology)
I repeat with EMPHASIS:
“He [Lord Jesus Christ] shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall RAISE the BODIES of ALL MEN who have lived [John 5:28 – 29], and shall clothe THOSE of the WORTHY with IMMORTALITY, and shall send those of the WICKED, endued with eternal [AGE-DURING] SENSIBILITY, into everlasting [AGE-DURING] fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” And in what kind of SENSATION and punishment the WICKED are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their WORM shall NOT REST, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED;” and THEN SHALL THEY REPENT, when it PROFITS them NOT.” (Justin Martyr, CHAPTER LII — CERTAIN FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY, First Apology)
What does it mean?
(i) Justin Martyr clearly affirms the ‘Conscious Punishment’ of the Wicked in the Lake of Fire
His Phrase: ‘SENSATION, SENSIBILITY’
(ii) Justin Martyr affirms that the Wicked Endure Punishment to that Particular AGE or AEON, AGE2.
His Phrase: ‘WICKED, endued with eternal [AGE-DURING] SENSIBILITY, into everlasting [AGE-DURING] fire’.
(iii) How Serious is this ‘continuous punishment’ which ‘lasts to that age’?
His Phrase: ‘Their WORM shall NOT REST, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED’.
(iv) What is the Purpose of the Lake of Fire?
To bring about REPENTANCE eventually.
His Phrase: ‘THEN SHALL THEY REPENT’.
(v) Does this repentance profit the wicked?
His Phrase: ‘it PROFITS them NOT’.
(vi) Does this mean that this punishment lasts forever since the repentance of the wicked does NOT profit them?
No. It means that by repenting, it does NOT stop their punishment as they MUST ENDURE till the LAST PENNY as Justin says elsewhere regarding the ‘duration of the punishment’ (Context of Duration described):
“… But there were also some private SINNERS who had committed GREAT CRIMES. And these, when they thought they were to ASCEND, the MOUTH would NOT PERMIT, but bellowed when any of those who were so INCURABLY WICKED attempted to ASCEND, UNLESS they had PAID the FULL PENALTY….” – Justin Martyr (CHAPTER XXVII – PLATO’S KNOWLEDGE OF THE JUDGEMENT, JUSTIN’S HORTATORY ADDRESS TO THE GREEKS)
Justin Martyr clearly describes the ‘Near Death Hell-like experience’ attributed to Plato’s knowledge to be similar and in agreement to the Prophets too (in the above chapter) —-> in that even toward the ‘most wicked’ men (though severe & serious) —–> it lasts only till the ‘full penalty’ after which they ‘may ascend’ (which seems to refer to the Hope of Resurrection – to be ‘made Alive in Christ’ inferred from 1 Corinthians 15:22 as a “HOPE” toward the Wicked too, Acts 24:15 as part and puzzle beyond the afterlife Judgment to the ‘last Penny’ which must be endured by these first – AGREEING BIBLICALLY to Luke 12:59).
It also means that by ‘repenting eventually’, the wicked will NOT obtain any inheritance in His Kingdom.
(vii) But isn’t the Punishment Forever upon the Wicked since their bodies are Raised as “Immortal”?
The “Wicked” are NOT raised IMMORTAL at all. This is a Popular Fallacy as even Justin’s ‘own words’ in the passage above describes as follows:
” … He shall RAISE the BODIES of ALL MEN who have lived [John 5:28 – 29], and shall clothe THOSE of the WORTHY with IMMORTALITY, …” = only the ‘Resurrection to Life’ consists of Immortality as ‘part of it’ as the phrase THOSE WORTHY (limited-ness) —-> and NOT all obtain ‘Immortality’.
The Wicked are raised to ‘age-during sensibility’ —-> hence ‘their resurrected for Judgment bodies’ last ONLY to THAT particular AGE or AEON, namely AEON2. Can you see it? as Justin contrasts and uses the ‘different’ word (namely, AEON or AGE-DURING) entirely to describe it.
How can we be sure?
“… when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint SOME to be INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL, and free from sorrow in the everlasting [AGE-DURING] and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting [AGE-DURING] punishment of fire …” (Justin Martyr CHAPTER CXVII, DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO)
Yes, only some attain IMMORTALITY and NOT all —> to live in the AEONIAN Kingdom (the Good Prepared by God for those TIMES of His KINGDOM) while the rest are in AEONIAN or AGE-DURING Chastisements accordingly (seen only when ‘literally’ translated from the original Greek – Justin and Ireneaous wrote ‘originally’ – which we can infer from the the ‘oldest surviving Latin Manuscripts’ even based on the ‘translation habits’ & the Verses in the Bible using these ‘actual Greek Words’).
2) Unbelievers – Is their Punishment Forever?
(i) Fire NOT quenched; and the WORM that does NOT die.
Please note that the Devil (Satan) and his angels (devils) are punished longer than one AGE (or AEON), namely to the “AGES (AEONS) – plural” and this distinction is clear in Holy Scripture (e. g. Revelation 20:10).
Some men’s “smoke” (referring to their “dead bodies” or Carcasses with NO soul or NO spirit will burn to the AGES or AEONS, Revelation 14:11, Isaiah 66:24) —-> though their actual “conscious punishment” (to their SOUL lasted only to the “SINGULAR-AGE (AEON)”) as Matthew 25:46 reveals.
In contrast the Devil’s (Satan’s) TORMENT and ‘not smoke’ (different phrases – different meanings – a ‘fine detail’ for accurate exegesis) —-> lasts to the AGES (AEONS) as the ‘same phrase’ exists describing this in both Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10. Can you see the INCREDIBLE ACCURACY of Scripture?
Who claims this?
Justin Martyr himself ‘defines this’. Please consider:
“… but some injunctions and acts were likewise mentioned in REFERENCE to the MYSTERY of CHRIST, on account of the hardness of your people’s hearts. And that this is so, God makes known in Ezekiel, [when] He said concerning it: ‘If Noah and Jacob and Daniel should beg either sons or daughters, the request would not be granted them.’ And in Isaiah, of the VERY SAME MATTER He spake thus: ‘The Lord God said, they shall both go forth and look on the MEMBERS [of the BODIES] of the MEN that have TRANSGRESSED. For their WORM shall NOT die, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED, and they shall be a gazing-stock to ALL FLESH.’ So that it becomes you to ERADICATE this HOPE from YOUR SOULS, and hasten to know in what way forgiveness of sins, and a HOPE of INHERITING the PROMISED GOOD THINGS, shall be yours. But there is no other [way] than this,–to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives.”… ” (Justin Martyr, DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO, CHAPTER XLIV)
How? [all from Justin’s own words, quoted from the above]
He said concerning it —> in REFERENCE to the MYSTERY of CHRIST —> ‘If Noah and Jacob and Daniel should beg either sons or daughters, the request would not be granted them.’ —> VERY SAME MATTER —-> MEMBERS [of the BODIES] of the MEN that have TRANSGRESSED —> their WORM shall NOT die, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED —-> they shall be a gazing-stock to ALL FLESH —-> you to ERADICATE this HOPE from YOUR SOULS —> a HOPE of INHERITING the PROMISED GOOD THINGS.
What does this Passage refer to?
- a) in REFERENCE to the MYSTERY of CHRIST = To be Part of the First Resurrection (the ‘Resurrection of the Righteous’, Sheepfold1 ONLY, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) followed by the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 – 6).
- b) ‘If Noah and Jacob and Daniel should beg either sons or daughters, the request would not be granted them.’ = Only those worthy shall be part of this First Resurrection of the Righteous and ‘we as believers cannot request it on behalf of others’ (Luke 14:14, Luke 20:35 – 36).
- c) VERY SAME MATTER —-> MEMBERS [of the BODIES] of the MEN that have TRANSGRESSED —> their WORM shall NOT die, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED = Most likely the ‘pieces of the dead bodies’ of those who took the mark of the beast (inclusive, Revelation 14:11) who were destroyed when Christ Returned on the White Horse Prior to this (Revelation 19:11 – 21).
Revelation 14:10 reveals that these who receive the mark of the beast shall be tormented (with their souls, afterlife context – implied and believed to last into the next age or aeon, AGE2 as per Matthew 24:56) but the ‘smoke’ referring to these ‘pieces or parts of their bodies’ (and NOT souls) burns longer into the duration of ‘ages of Ages’ as God Wills (if we take these passages LITERALLY).
- d) they shall be a gazing-stock to ALL FLESH = The only SOULS SAVED [meaning having been Resurrection to Life in then FLESH in a BODY] are those ‘believers in Faith of Jesus Christ, Sheepfold1 (Immortals, Luke 20:35 – 36)’ + ‘alongside some mortals’ (Isaiah 65:20) who must be the ALL FLESH (some Immortal vs some mortal) during this specific Point of Time since NO other ‘flesh’ is existent (as the ‘rest of the dead have not been resurrected in the flesh yet’, Revelation 20:5).
- e) you to ERADICATE this HOPE from YOUR SOULS = As Hippolytus of Rome himself pointed out (I demonstrated in a previous post), this HOPE for some SOULS to be part of the ‘First Resurrection’ is NOT for all the dead is being referred to here (as Hippolytus quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:13’s NO HOPE to refer to the ‘First Resurrection of the Righteous’ – proving the ‘same’ context).
- f) a HOPE of INHERITING the PROMISED GOOD THINGS = Of being Part of His Royal Marriage, the First Resurrection followed by the 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ.
Really? Let’s Consider Justin again (in another passage):
“… But we will NOT receive it of all YOUR NATION; since we know from Isaiah that the MEMBERS of THOSE who have TRANSGRESSED shall be consumed by the WORM and UNQUENCHABLE FIRE, remaining IMMORTAL; so that they become a spectacle to ALL FLESH. … has shown that THOSE who were SELECTED out of every NATION have OBEYED His will through Christ,–whom He CALLS ALSO Jacob, and names Israel,–… He allots the SAME INHERITANCE to them, and does not call them by the same name; but when He says that they as GENTILES rejoice with His people, … WORTHY of knowing His will, and of inheriting His inheritance.” (Justin Martyr, CHAPTER CXXX, DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO)
- g) But we will NOT receive it of all YOUR NATION = Not all the Jews (in the flesh) are automatically resurrected to inherit the First Resurrection and His Millennial Reign
- h) since we know from Isaiah that the MEMBERS of THOSE who have TRANSGRESSED shall be consumed by the WORM and UNQUENCHABLE FIRE = as explained prior.
- i) remaining IMMORTAL = I don’t think that these ‘body parts from these carcasses’ [dead pieces with ‘no’ life in them] remain forever but rather that the word ‘Immortal’ is rendered here in the sense that ‘though the fire burns it, it never gets fully burned up, kinda like set ablaze permanently to the ages of Ages?’.
- j) has shown that THOSE who were SELECTED out of every NATION have OBEYED His will through Christ,–whom He CALLS ALSO Jacob, and names Israel, = Sheepfold1 or believers in Faith of Jesus Christ are ‘co-heirs’ (Romans 8:17).
- k) He allots the SAME INHERITANCE to them, and does not call them by the same name; but when He says that they as GENTILES rejoice with His people = Gentile believers in Christ are co-heirs with NO distinction whatsoever (Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:26 – 29).
- l) WORTHY of knowing His will, and of inheriting His inheritance = Yes, Christ Remarks likewise that ONLY those who are WORTHY (Matthew 16:24 – 25, Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26, Luke 20:35 – 36).
- m) What Happens to the Rest? They will be Rejected from the First Resurrection = the Great Denial (Matthew 7:20 – 23).
Is God Fair in this? Here’s Justin (yet again):
“… And besides, they beguile themselves and you, supposing that the everlasting [AGE-DURING, AGE1] KINGDOM will be assuredly given to those of the dispersion who are of Abraham AFTER the FLESH, although they be sinners, and faithless, and disobedient towards God, … And Ezekiel: ‘Even if Noah, and Jacob, and Daniel were to pray for sons or daughters, their request should not be granted.’ … And again Isaiah says: ‘They shall look on the CARCASSES of THEM that have TRANSGRESSED: their WORM shall NOT cease, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED; and they shall be a spectacle to ALL FLESH.’ … ‘They shall come from the east, and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.’ Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded,” that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.” (Justin Martyr, CHAPTER CXL,DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO)
- n) And besides, they beguile themselves and you, supposing that the everlasting [AGE-DURING, AGE1] KINGDOM will be assuredly given to those of the dispersion who are of Abraham AFTER the FLESH, although they be sinners, and faithless, and disobedient towards God = Just because one is ‘born a Jew in the flesh’, there is NO ‘automatic inheritance toward the Messiah’s Reign’.
- o) And Ezekiel: ‘Even if Noah, and Jacob, and Daniel were to pray for sons or daughters, their request should not be granted.’ = Even the most righteous among the Jews of the Past (Prophets too) CANNOT request this on behalf of anybody.
- p) And again Isaiah says: ‘They shall look on the CARCASSES of THEM that have TRANSGRESSED: their WORM shall NOT cease, and their FIRE shall NOT be QUENCHED; and they shall be a spectacle to ALL FLESH = Justin repeats this Point to show that ‘All Israel’ will not get this ‘automatically’ as ‘some of them belong to those who transgressed as well’ (hence such as these are ‘not resurrected during this time in the flesh’ – Revelation 20:5 & ‘their old body parts of sin’ are burning).
- q) They shall come from the east, and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven = The Gentiles who believe in Christ.
- r) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness. = the children of the Jews who are after the flesh but did NOT accept Christ are ‘rejected’.
- s) Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded,” that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be” = God Foreordained the same level of ‘free choice’ available to each man ‘fairly’ (which He Will Prove One Day) and each man chooses this ‘particular destiny’ on regards of ‘his choice in faith & works too’ which merits these rewards though the Salvation Part is His Free Gift.
(ii) Does this Disprove Universal Salvation?
I don’t think so. It only proves further that some have part in the First Resurrection while others do NOT (Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17).
The next badge of resurrection is followed by the General Judgment after these 1000 years are up (Revelation 20:5, 7, John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2).
Salvation = the SOUL or SPIRIT being MADE ALIVE in a SINLESS BODY = a FLESH which is MADE ANEW by God which is PROPHETICALLY echoed by Irenaeous toward the WHOLE HUMAN RACE (no one excluded – ‘eventually’ into the ‘future dispensations of time’ – as explained in a previous write-up):
Restoration and the Reconciliation of All Things with Mercy Triumphing and ending afterlife Judgments but only after the ‘judgment with no mercy is endured first by some – James 2:13’ (Acts 3:21, Colossians 1:20, Malachi 3:2).
“… Proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [FUTURE] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to GATHER ALL THINGS in ONE,” and to RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and THINGS UNDER the EARTH, and that every tongue should confess” to Him, …” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World, Point 1).
Please note the following ‘carefully’ in the above:
His [FUTURE] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to GATHER ALL THINGS in ONE = Includes, ‘RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE’.
What is the ‘Context’ of ‘ALL FLESH’ in the above?
RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH = the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, eventually.
Eventually? = His [FUTURE] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to GATHER ALL THINGS in ONE.
(iii) Are UNBELIEVERS are cast off to the next AGE or AEON only, AGE2 (agreeing say to Matthew 12:32) and ‘not forever’?
Here’s a DIRECT answer to this question which proves (yet again) that the “Lake of Fire or Gehenna” Judgments (Revelation 20:11 – 15) toward “unbelieving men too” (Revelation 21:8) are to the “next (future) singular-age ONLY, Biblically in say Matthew 25:41 or Matthew 25:46 and NOT Forever as so popularly erred”.
Who says so?
The REAL Authority of Doctrine & Biblical Koine Greek itself, ‘a king of True Christian Theology’, St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself in the following ‘in his own words’ (“irrefutable”):
“… For Paul does not say, “the God of this world,” as if recognising any other beyond Him; but he confessed God as indeed God. And he says, “the unbelievers of this world,” because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption …” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 3, Point 1)
I repeat with EMPHASIS for Clarity [in Brackets too, showing the “Original Greek Word: Aeon or “age” occurring in 2 Corinthians 4:4, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 25:41 or even Matthew 12:32]
“… For Paul does not say, “the God of this world [AGE, AEON],” as if recognising any other beyond Him; but he confessed God as indeed God. And he [apostle Paul] says, “the UNBELIEVERS of this world [AGE, AEON],” because they [UNBELIEVERS] shall NOT INHERIT the FUTURE AGE [AEON] of incorruption [SINLESSNESS] …” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 3, Chapter VII, Point 1)
Indeed, in the above it is evident that (in Irenaeous’ OWN WORDS’ that:
the UNBELIEVERS of this world [AGE, AEON, AGE1] —-> because they [UNBELIEVERS] shall NOT INHERIT —–> the FUTURE AGE [AEON, AGE2] of incorruption [SINLESSNESS].
Irenaeous clearly makes a distinction and understands the CURRENT AGE (AEON, AGE1) vs the NEXT AGE (AEON, AGE2) vs the “ages to come” (e. g. Ephesians 2:7, AGE2, AGE3…) as explained in detail in earlier write ups too agreeing to all this.
If he [Irenaeous] understands it thus belonging to the “True Faith”, we shouldn’t understand it differently. Yes, NO adding NOR removing from the Blessed Word of God is seen in his ‘Genius Level Exegesis’ but ONLY EXACTLY stating Holy Scripture as “it is Written”.
Please note carefully this punishment for “unbelievers”, namely that they are cast out for EXACTLY one FUTURE AGE [or next AEON, AGE2] —-> not inheriting the “incorruption” which is being raised in a “sinless resurrection of flesh” proving again irrefutably also that the “resurrection of judgment” toward the ‘wicked’ (in John 5:28 – 29) refers to their ‘identical bodies’ still in “sin” (“corruptible”) and NOT in any form of ‘incorruptibility’ as our dear ‘eternal hell’ theologians err so easily.
3) Who is Irenaeous?
‘Irenaeus (/ɪrɪˈneɪəs/; Greek: Εἰρηναῖος Eirēnaios; c. 140 – c. 202 AD) was a Greek cleric noted for his role in guiding and expanding Christian communities in what is now the south of France and, more widely, for the development of Christian theology by combatting heresy and defining orthodoxy. Originating from Smyrna, now Izmir in Turkey, he had heard the preaching of Polycarp, who in turn was said to have heard John the Evangelist.’
4) Irenaeous affirms the Correct and Accurate reading of apostle Paul
All Translations from Book 3 are from this Source:
Example: ‘AGE-during’ or ‘AEONION’ lasting Chastisement to the AGE (or AEON) only within this ‘same chapter’ (Context).
“… know not how to read Paul. … And he says, “the unbelievers of this world,” because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption … So therefore, in such passages, the hyperbaton must be exhibited by the reading, and the apostle’s meaning following on, preserved; and thus we do not read in that passage, “the god of this world,” but, “God,” whom we do truly call God; and we hear [it declared of] the unbelieving and the blinded of this world, that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come.” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 3, Chapter VII, Point 1 & Point 2)
I repeat with EMPHASIS:
“… know NOT how to read [apostle] Paul. … And he [apostle Paul] says, “the unbelievers of THIS AGE, [AEON, AGE1],” because they shall NOT INHERIT the FUTURE AGE [AEON, AGE2] of Incorruption … So therefore, in such passages, the hyperbaton must be exhibited by the reading, and the apostle’s meaning following on, preserved; and thus we do NOT read in that passage, “the god of THIS AGE, [AEON, AGE1],” but, “God,” whom we do truly call God; and we hear [it declared of] the UNBELIEVING and the BLINDED of THIS AGE, [AEON, AGE1], that they shall NOT INHERIT the AGE [AEON, AGE2] of life which is TO COME [next AGE, next AEON, Future – AGE2].” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 3, Chapter VII, Point 1 & Point 2)
Please note that Irenaeos basically ‘repeats himself twice’ in the above that the ‘unbelieving’ of THIS CURRENT AGE, AEON1 —> shall NOT inherit ‘life’ & ‘incorruption’ in the NEXT AGE, AEON2 and that there is also at least AEON3 (based on Ephesians 2:7) proving that the next AEON2 is NOT eternal as explained by Irenaeous’ own writing too (in the previous post below – under the Topics, ‘Aeons of the Aeons – ages of Ages – St. Irenaeous of Lyons on the Eternal Age Heresy’ and ‘All Things – Aeons – Salvation of All – Secrets from St. Irenaeous of Lyons’ – for example):
The Greek Word for ‘World’ is Different, called ‘Cosmos’ (e,g. in John 3:16) and can occur in the SAME Sentence with the Greek Word AEON (or AGE) proving that the ‘man made excuse’ of sometimes needing to render the meaning of ‘AEON as WORLD’ to be completely BASELESS – ‘a man made excuse’ (supported by NON-Scriptural Sources of myths and Greek mythologies or un-inspired and un-authoritative mere ‘secular writings’ whom such ‘scholars prefer’ over Scripture and the real authorities such as Irenaeos – I prefer Irenaeous’ Exegesis – ‘Classic and Beautifully Deep’):
Which Verse is it? The FACTUAL Hebrews 9:26 (please see below).
An Illustration will show how weak their ‘claim’ really is: The claim that ‘AEON’ can be translated as ‘WORLD’ sometimes quoting ‘poetic and secular’ Greek literature is equivalent (in analogy to this) —-> Imagine you find an ancient ‘non-literal’ phrase ‘this woman is my world (AEON)’. Then these scholars proceed to enforce it in LITERAL Bible Sentence (Factual Statements) and claim that the word ‘world’ can also mean ‘woman’ according to Context, can you see it?
That’s ‘how’ their ‘research is done’ to claim that ‘AEON means WORLD’ —> which is NOT using Bible Verses or authorities such as Irenaeos but ‘fictional and non-literal poetic writings’ being applied to ‘Factual Biblical Statements’ —> utterly ‘OUT of CONTEXT’.
To Quote (from a previous post):
Please note that the Greek Word for “world” (Kosmos) and “ages” (Aion or Eon) has nothing to do with each other in Factual Statements as it is ‘often confused in Greek literature’ (non-factual poetic writings) as both words are found in the Factual Verse below proving distinction clearly as claimed by quoting Biblical Usage “only” (sorry but I don’t believe in Greek literature quotes, especially Fictional quotes, my faith is NOT built upon its usage in FABLES or OPINION-writings):
“since it had behoved Him many times to suffer from the foundation of the WORLD [Kosmou], but now once, at the full END of the AGES [Aionon], for putting away of sin through His Sacrifice, He hath been Manifested;” (Hebrews 9:26, YLT)
If you claim otherwise, where are the VERSES proving it? (not non-literal interpreted translations, you and I know what this means)
If St. Irenaous understands (by his writing) that the usage of ‘AEON’ is ‘Age’ and that Immortality transcends as a ‘long period of AGES first’ and from ‘Age to Age’, so will we.
Conclusion – God’s Judgment is for CORRECTION and SALVATION of ALL
Here’s another one from Irenaeous in support of this (which is ‘generally in view of man’ – ‘context’):
“… For if MAN, who had been CREATED by GOD that he might live, after losing life, through being injured by the serpent that had CORRUPTED him, should NOT any more RETURN to LIFE, but should be UTTERLY [and for ever] ABANDONED to DEATH, God would [in that case] have been conquered, and the wickedness of the serpent would have PREVAILED OVER the WILL of GOD. But inasmuch as God is invincible and long-suffering, He did indeed show Himself to be long-suffering in the matter of the CORRECTION of MAN and the PROBATION of ALL, as I have already observed; and by means of the SECOND MAN did He bind the strong man, and spoiled his goods, and ABOLISHED DEATH, VIVIFYING that MAN who had been in a STATE of DEATH….” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’ Book 3, Chapter XXIII, Point 1)
For if MAN, who had been CREATED by GOD = Point to All Human Beings ever Created by God right?
CORRECTION of MAN = Points even to the ‘resurrection of Judgment’ (John 5:28 – 29) into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11 – 15) too, right?
PROBATION of ALL = Points to Times appointed for Judgment & their BETTERMENT toward ‘ALL who are evil’, right?
should NOT any more RETURN to LIFE, but should be UTTERLY [and for ever] ABANDONED to DEATH = that is, if any Man remains in an ‘eternal Hell’, right?
God would [in that case] have been conquered, and the wickedness of the serpent would have PREVAILED OVER the WILL of GOD = Irenaeous seems to Speak against the Possibility of ‘eternal Hell’ to even ‘one human being ever created’. Can you see it?
But inasmuch as God is invincible and long-suffering, He did indeed show Himself to be long-suffering in the matter of the CORRECTION of MAN and the PROBATION of ALL = Sounds like all the Judgment of God, however harsh it may be (the ‘age-during fire’ or the ‘fire to the ages of Ages’) points for the PURPOSE of CORRECTION and PROBATION, against it doesn’t support ‘eternal Hell’ at all, right?
as I have already observed; and by means of the SECOND MAN [Lord Jesus Christ] did He bind the strong man [the Devil], and spoiled his goods, and ABOLISHED DEATH [eventually Death Ceases to Exist], VIVIFYING that MAN who had been in a STATE of DEATH = Christ the Second Adam will somehow VIVIFY [All Human Beings ever created – Context defined at the start] in a NEW FLESH (sinless) eventually, right?
Irenaeous continues from the ‘above’ passage after explaining some details in support of this (within this ‘same topic’ – ‘context’) next as follows:
“… Wherefore also He [God] drove him [MAN] out of Paradise, and removed him [MAN] far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some venture to assert, but because He pitied him [MAN], [and did NOT desire] that he [MAN] should continue a sinner for ever, NOR that the SIN which surrounded him should be IMMORTAL, and EVIL INTERMINABLE and IRREMEDIABLE. But He [God] set a BOUND to his [STATE of] SIN, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease, putting an END to it by the DISSOLUTION of the FLESH, which should take place in the earth, so that MAN, CEASING at length to live to SIN, and dying to it, might begin to live to God…
-indicating that SIN, which was set up and SPREAD out AGAINST MAN, and which rendered him subject to DEATH, should be DEPRIVED of ITS POWER, along with DEATH, which rules [over MEN]; and that the lion, that is, ANTICHRIST, rampant AGAINST MANKIND in the latter days, should be TRAMPLED DOWN by Him [Lord Jesus Christ]; and that He should bind “the dragon, that old serpent” and SUBJECT him to the power of man, who had been conquered so that ALL his MIGHT should be TRODDEN DOWN. Now ADAM had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, ADAM received NEW LIFE; and the LAST ENEMY, DEATH, is DESTROYED, which at the first had taken possession of MAN. Therefore, WHEN MAN has been LIBERATED, “what is written shall COME to PASS, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death sting? ” This could not be said with JUSTICE, if THAT MAN, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For HIS SALVATION is DEATH’s DESTRUCTION. When therefore the Lord VIVIFIES MAN, that is, ADAM, DEATH is at the same time DESTROYED” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’ Book 3, Chapter XXIII, Point 6, Point 7)
Examples from Irenaeous quote above (which pertains to ‘man generally’ – again):
- a) that he [MAN] should continue a sinner for ever, NOR that the SIN which surrounded him should be IMMORTAL, and EVIL INTERMINABLE and IRREMEDIABLE —-> Doesn’t Sound Consistent with the ‘eternal Hell’ argument that ‘sin & evil’ exists eternally locked up somewhere for ‘some men’?
- b) But He [God] set a BOUND to his [STATE of] SIN, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease = the Word BOUND itself indicates a ‘limited punishment & existence in sin’, e.g. ‘age-during punishment & dying in their sins, and NOT forever’.
- c) putting an END to it [the ‘state of sin in MAN’] by the DISSOLUTION of the FLESH, which should take place in the earth, so that MAN, CEASING at length to live to SIN, and dying to it, might begin to live to God… = The Phrase ‘Dissolution of the FLESH’ Sounds like ‘BODY + SOUL being DESTROYED in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire’ (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 20:11 – 15) —-> which causes ‘CEASING at length to live to SIN, and dying to it, might begin to live to God’ —> sounds like the ‘spirit is saved and is living to God explanation given in earlier posts, LITERALLY’ (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5).
- d) indicating that SIN, which was set up and SPREAD out AGAINST MAN, and which rendered him subject to DEATH, should be DEPRIVED of ITS POWER, along with DEATH, which rules [over MEN]; = God’s Will Points to BOTH SIN and DEATH to NOT last ‘forever’, right?
- e) and that the lion, that is, ANTICHRIST, rampant AGAINST MANKIND in the latter days, should be TRAMPLED DOWN by Him [Lord Jesus Christ]; and that He should bind “the dragon, that old serpent” and SUBJECT him to the power of man, who had been conquered so that ALL his MIGHT should be TRODDEN DOWN. = Even the Deeds of the Antichrist (the ‘most powerful evil of all’) should NOT last ‘forever’, right?
Irenaeous Beautifully Reveals that CHRIST will be TRIUMPHANT —-> till even the ‘antichrist’ and ‘ALL the MIGHT’ of the ‘dragon’ (or ‘satan’ too) MUST END —> being TRODDEN DOWN —> and ‘not last forever in some way’, e.g. in an ‘eternal Hell’, right?
- f) Now ADAM had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, ADAM received NEW LIFE; and the LAST ENEMY, DEATH, is DESTROYED, which at the first had taken possession of MAN. Therefore, WHEN MAN has been LIBERATED, “what is written shall COME to PASS, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death sting? ” This could not be said with JUSTICE, if THAT MAN, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For HIS SALVATION is DEATH’s DESTRUCTION = Adam’s SALVATION is Certain.
- g) Who is ADAM being referred to in these passages here by Irenaeous?
Does it refer to ADAM only?
When therefore the Lord VIVIFIES MAN, that is, ADAM, DEATH is at the same time DESTROYED = All the above Points to ALL MEN being SAVED eventually by God (1 Timothy 2:4 – KJV) till they all become SINLESS.
Please read ‘carefully’ the ‘last line’ above and ‘realize’ that the ‘only context’ here is:
the Lord VIVIFIES MAN —-> refers IRREFUTABLY to —-> ADAM.
Can you see it?
MAN (ALL Men or ALL Human Beings ever Created) = ADAM in Irenaeous’ Explanation above (‘his own definition and usage’). Shocked?
Beautiful, isn’t it?
the Lord VIVIFIES MAN (Adam) till ‘DEATH is at the same time DESTROYED’ = Points to EVERY HUMAN BEING ever Created to eventually Receive a NEW RESURRECTED FLESH eventually (John 17:2, 1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22).
“For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our HOPE on the LIVING GOD, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of believers.” – apostle Paul (1 Timothy 4:10, NASB)
‘believers are a more special subset for believing in Him first’, yes —-> but, God WILL SAVE ALL MEN eventually.
Can you see it now?
Peace to you
P/S: Is this ‘Real Doctrine’?
“… THEY thus WANDER from the TRUTH, because THEIR DOCTRINE DEPARTS from Him who is truly God, being IGNORANT that His only-begotten Word, Who is ALWAYS PRESENT with the HUMAN RACE, united to and mingled with His OWN CREATION, according to the Father’s pleasure, and who became flesh, is Himself Jesus Christ our Lord, who did also suffer for us, and rose again on our behalf, and who will come again in the glory of His Father, to RAISE UP ALL FLESH, and for the MANIFESTATION of SALVATION, and to apply the RULE of JUST JUDGMENT to ALL who were MADE by Him. There is therefore, as I have pointed out, one God the Father, and one Christ Jesus, who came by means of the whole DISPENSATIONAL ARRANGEMENTS [connected with Him], and GATHERED TOGETHER ALL THINGS in Himself. But in every respect, too, He is man, the formation of God; and thus He took up man into Himself, the invisible becoming visible, the incomprehensible being made comprehensible, the impassible becoming capable of suffering, and the Word being MADE MAN, thus SUMMING UP ALL THINGS in Himself: so that as in super-celestial, spiritual, and invisible things, the Word of God is supreme, so also in things visible and corporeal He might possess the supremacy, and, taking to Himself the pre-eminence, as well as constituting Himself Head of the Church, He might DRAW ALL THINGS to Himself at the PROPER TIME.” (Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’ Book 3, Chapter XVI, Point 6)
Please note ‘carefully’ (from the above):
Who is ALWAYS PRESENT with the HUMAN RACE —->
to RAISE UP ALL FLESH [“anew” eventually in ‘sinless-ness’ right?] = for the MANIFESTATION of SALVATION = the RULE of JUST JUDGMENT to ALL who were MADE by Him.
At Different [Future] Times according to His Will (1 Timothy 2:6):
the whole DISPENSATIONAL ARRANGEMENTS [connected with Him], and GATHERED TOGETHER ALL [Created] THINGS in Himself [Ephesians 1:9 – 10] —-> thus SUMMING UP ALL [Created] THINGS in Himself (Colossians 1:16, 20) —-> He might DRAW ALL [Created] THINGS to Himself at the PROPER TIME (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28).
Example for the Subset of All Creation —-> ALL MEN or ALL Human Beings ever created, right?
The Beautiful Prophecy by our Most Blessed Saviour Himself (‘Irrefutable’):
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW [Drag, Fish out] ALL MEN to Myself.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:32, BSB)
All Glory to God – LITERALLY.
Judge not, what’s the meaning?
Please allow me to quote St. Irenaeous himself:
“… therefore has the Lord said: “Judge not, that ye be not judged: for with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged.” [The meaning is] not certainly that we should not find fault with sinners, nor that we should consent to those who act wickedly; but that we should not pronounce an unfair judgment on the dispensations of God, inasmuch as He has Himself made provision that all things shall turn out for good, in a way consistent with justice…” (Irenaeous of Lyons, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 4, Chapter XXX, Point 3).
Please remember these four points whenever ‘we claim that we are not judging others’:
(i) Christ Who Spoke “judge not” Himself Demonstrated that the Pointed out Errors and Wickedness (e. g. To the Pharisees or the ‘common adulteress by asking her to sin no more after exercising Mercy’ —-> as Irenaeous’ Exegesis above agrees Perfectly).
(ii) Well, many theologians who disagree with say Irenaeous say that “Irenaeous is wrong” and at the same claim that they “judge not” – Aren’t such ones ‘contradicting themselves’ in ‘plain hypocrisy’?
(iii) The opponents of Irenaeous cannot bring this charge of ‘hypocrisy’ upon Irenaeous simply because Irenaeous says openly that he will point out the errors in Theology and sins of wickedness which are not taught in the Bible.
It’s only ‘hypocritical’ if Irenaeous subscribes to the ‘popular misled definition of judge not’ —-> to which he implies, ‘that’s NOT what our Blessed Lord meant’.
In light of this, we may be the ‘real modern Pharisees’ ourselves as ‘our own definition’ which we ascribe to the phrase ‘Judge not’ may ‘condemn us by our own words’ – Deep if we ‘realize it’.
(iv) Irenaeous (having been pass down the ancient apostolic authority) defines the “judge not – in the above to refer to two things” ——> namely that, ‘Just Judgment must be Spoken in a Context of TURNING ALL THINGS to GOOD eventually’ —–> and also that ‘We must Judge the Dispensations of God’ rightly, i. e. with ‘no errors in Doctrine – if possible’ (e. g. Regarding Time & Judgment correctly – Ecclesiastes 8:5).
We only need to fear if we judge ‘wrongly’ (1 Corinthians 5:13, 1 Corinthians 5:10) and not when we judge ‘rightly’ (1 Corinthians 5:12, 1 Corinthians 5:11) – Indeed, let God Alone Decide that One Day (John 7:24), while in the meantime please consider:
“Whoso KEEPETH the COMMANDMENT shall feel NO EVIL thing: and a WISE man’s HEART discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT.” (Ecclesiastes 8:5, LJV)
Peace to you
P/S: A Scriptural Example of Judging ‘Wrongly’ vs Judging ‘Rightly’ in New Testament Times
(i) Judging ‘WRONGLY’ —> Judging NON-Christians, ‘Outsiders’:
“I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did NOT at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But those who are OUTSIDE [the NON-Christians], God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES [Christians]” – apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:9, 10, 13, NASB)
(ii) Judging ‘RIGHTLY’ —-> Judging CHRISTIANS ONLY, ‘Insiders’:
“But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any SO-CALLED BROTHER [or CHRISTIAN] if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with JUDGING OUTSIDERS [i.e. NON-Christians]? Do you not JUDGE THOSE who are WITHIN the CHURCH [i.e. Christians]?” – apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 5:11 – 12, NASB)
(iii) What’s the Biblical Logic?
We only Judge those who ‘bear the same name as us, e.g. Christians’ —> because ‘if they preach something wrong, it gives us the bad name collectively too’.
The Bible is Perfectly Teaching that —-> ‘a human being can only Judge those with the SAME RELIGION as himself’ (1 Corinthians 15:11 – 12) and we CANNOT Judge other human beings from ‘other religions, if we are NOT part of that religion’ (implied in 1 Corinthians 15:10, 13) by apostle Paul himself.
Is the ‘Church’ Practicing this?
Evil – Doctrinal Errors and A Psychological Fallacy
Brian and theologians in his ‘thought pattern’ often appeal to ‘difficult judgment’ Verses such as ‘babies dashed upon the rock or God ordered the genocide of certain races including the slaughter of their women & children or in taking these as slaves’ —–> during Old Testament Judgment times, to claim that ‘Scripture must be fallible because they cannot believe that God Ordered or Allowed such EVIL in JUDGMENT’.
Here’s a simple Logical Explanation to why God ‘Created EVIL of JUDGMENT’ (based on Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6):
I have no problem with all That. It’s called judgment where one only receives what they have done.
The Judgment part is God giving back their own evil back to themselves be it here on earth or in the afterlife at Hell (Isaiah 3:11, Galatians 6:7).
For example, the ‘babies dashed on the rock Judgment’ (Psalm 137:9) is given to them ‘that did that FIRST toward OTHERS’ (Psalm 137:8) as the Consecutive Verses (in Brackets here) prove this Fact Irrefutably.
There is NOT one Case where a terrible Judgment was done toward ‘good people’ who ‘first didn’t do those type of things toward others’.
No point in arguing that those babies were innocent because so were the babies they DASHED FIRST unto the rocks (that’s the idea of Judgment – equality – eye for an eye).
That’s a great reason why Hell exists and if anyone think he has done no ‘hurt’ or evil toward others in any way, then he need not fear (if he is speaking the ‘truth’ – that DAY will DECLARE it with FIRE – 1 Corinthians 3:13).
If any man thinks those Judgment were cruel on Judgment Day —> for argument sake —> suppose his daughter is raped and killed or smashed as a baby on the rock, would he be ‘happy’ to ‘forgive the perpetrators’ just like that?
If he says yes, may time be turned around and him be the one that is ‘raped’ and ‘smashed’ unto the rock (God can turn back time – and make you the ‘substitute’ – we shall ask Him on Judgment Day).
For an even more in depth Discussion covering almost all Verses which Speak of these, please consider:
SIBYL and HYSTASPES – Mystery of what actually did Hystaspes Say?
To Quote (in the Context of Christian Theology – I quote Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria below):
The following texts refer to Hystaspes and may thus be quoted with confidence as excerpts from the oracles of Hystaspes:
(1) Justin Martyr (ca. 150 C.E.), Apology I, 20, 1 (ed. J. K. Th. von Otto, p. 62; cf. Bidez and Cumont, II, p. 361), Greek: “And both the Sibyl and Hystaspes have said that the extermination of the corrupt will happen by fire.”
(2) Clement of Alexandria (ca. 190 C.E.), Stromata VI, 5, 1 (ed. O. Stählin, p. 453; cf. Bidez and Cumont, II, pp. 362-63), Greek, quoting an apocryphal speech by Paul: “Grasp also the Hellenic books, recognize the Sibyl more perfectly . . . , and grasp and read Hystaspes, and you will find the Son of God described much more distinctly and clearly, and how against Christ many kings will fight, hating him and those who bear his name, and his followers, and the suffering [of Christ] and his coming.”
Is Clement of Alexandria mentioning a Secret that apostle Paul tried to say in regards to Hystaspes when he writes, ‘quoting an apocryphal speech by Paul’?
Is that why Justin Martyr (knowing this) also quotes Hystaspes in a ‘Universal Salvation’ manner —-> saying, ‘extermination of the corrupt will happen by fire’ —> which refers to the extermination of the ‘corrupt’ (sin & evil) —> as even the SIBYL quoted together in the above obviously taught Universal Salvation (proving this Context Stronger), to quote:
“… for a long day will God make.
And to the pious will the almighty God
405 Imperishable grant another thing,
When they shall ask the imperishable God:
That he will suffer men from raging fire
And endless gnawing anguish to be saved;
And this will he do. For hereafter he
410 Will pluck them from the restless flame, elsewhere
Remove them, and for his own people’s sake
Send them to other and eternal life
With the immortals, in Elysian field,” (Sibyline Oracles, Book II, 297-322, p. 51)
I repeat with Emphasis:
“… for a long day will God make.
And to the pious will the Almighty God
405 Imperishable grant another thing,
When they shall ask the imperishable God:
That He [God] will suffer [SAVE] men from RAGING FIRE
And ENDLESS GNAWING ANGUISH to be SAVED;
And THIS WILL HE [God] DO. For hereafter He [God]
410 Will PLUCK THEM [Wicked] from the RESTLESS FLAME, elsewhere REMOVE THEM [Wicked, the ‘thirsty’ from the ‘Lake of Fire’], and for His own people’s sake [His Bride, Revelation 22:17] Send them to OTHER [Outside Regions of the Kingdom of the Heavens, Matthew 5:19] and eternal [AGE -DURING, Fulfilling John 17:2 toward ALL MEN or ALL FLESH] life With the Immortals [Revelation 20:4 – 6], in Elysian field,” (Sibyline Oracles, Book II, 297-322, p. 51)
Peace to you
P/S 2: A Typical Banning from a Christian Group for not agreeing with ‘their own private interpretation’ is illustrated in Images too.