Matthew 25:31 – 46 Context as Judgment Day and not the Second Coming of Christ with St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr to Possibilities Uncertain

 

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#BibleandChurchFathersQuoteBook

 

Latest Update: 5 Dec 2022

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Page of Contents for this #BibleandChurchFathersQuoteBook

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#IgnoredChristianDoctrineBook

 

Latest Update: 19 February 2022

 

This book is written to look at how some Christian Doctrines are Ignored by some modern Christians as not so important.  Therefore we try our  best not to repeat the usual Doctrines which are already well Revealed and accepted across mainstream Christianity such as the Doctrine of Trinity to the Doctrine of Holiness and rather choose to Speak about the other New Testament Bible Verses which pertain to some of these Ignored Doctrines and Possibilities so that a Christian may decide his walk of faith better and not be discouraged by empty words against it sometimes (by those who preach a simplified saved by Grace Doctrine ignoring the fruits of Salvation or in some cases ignoring the Rewards Doctrine for Works as Revealed for this New Testament).

 

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#SafeRouteScripturallyBook

 

Latest Update: 31 Oct 2022

 

This book is written to explain some key Christian Doctrine position we take to be Safe Scripturally highlighting the Risks with Bible Verses for those who do otherwise. This is important to as a Christian because we do not want Christ Questioning us one day regarding ‘Why we didn’t warn others?’ based on Verses below:

 

“… When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and YOU DO NOT SPEAK TO WARN THE WICKED FROM HIS WAY, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND. Nevertheless IF YOU WARN the WICKED to TURN FROM HIS WAY, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but YOU HAVE DELIVERED YOUR SOUL. …” (Ezekiel 33:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

This does not necessarily mean that the opposite positions to what we propose as the Safe Route Scripturally in this Book must we wrong but rather in some cases it could be so if God permitted it. However the risk of the opposite positions is still there because we prove our position with Bible Verses and the opposite positions usually pertain to New Modern Ways which some Christians have claimed that God told them do so especially based on the Progressive Revelation Movement which we do not support.

 

Since only God Knows whether their claims are true or not, we do not judge those Christians letting God Judge them alone. However, we also point out to them to have respect for these First Ways of the Church especially which are Written in Bible Verses because the Doctrinal Position we demonstrate is already Plainly Written in Holy Scripture and so it is already 100% Approved by New Testament Scripture and the First Churches which obeyed it are already Saved by Practicing it and that’s why we seek to Imitate Scripture likewise.  Big number of Christians following a Doctrine or believing in something is not necessarily a sign of Truth which is easy to prove for any Protestants since no matter what blessing or evangelism they claim, the Roman Catholics beat them in financial blessings to number of souls and so by that logic, does it justify Praying to Virgin Mary? So claiming such proofs is not Biblical but rather we point to Bible Verses only for each claim.

 

 

 

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“Prosperity Testimony” – Questions to Ponder

 

A General Scenario: Imagine your country has majority of religion A and race B but a person of religion C and race D becomes its king by Democracy. So if that “king” comes and gives a testimony of his life, would you leave your religion and convert to that instead?

 

This is a reason “why” I do “not” believe in any “Prosperity” as a

“sign of truth”.

 

The “king” may be from subrace D1 while the others from his native country may be from subrace D2, D3, … where even among them they won’t support those of another subrace easily or if any from their subrace is not of the same religion of C, can you see it?

 

In fact, they won’t even allow subrace D2, D3, etc. to marry those of subrace D1 or some selected subrace only to do so. But despite such racism hidden within their own hearts even, they can be among the “richest” people in the world too. God Will Reveal everything One Day.

 

While people from race D or others wish to be “king” in the land of majority religion A and race B, in their own “native land/motherland” NO ONE from race B or others who do not believe in religion C will ever be a “king” there (in their “motherland”) by “democracy”, an irony isn’t it?

 

The only “Genuine Truth” here I see is that the people of majority religion A and race B have been able to PRACTICE JUSTICE beyond their own religion A and race B which itself puts them at a MORAL LEVEL that is UNSURPASSED by their other counterparts. The day the others can do similarly in not just “appointing a king” but also in “other matters of business and life” then they get closer to “God’s Truth”. Till then, it’s just a “prosperity game” which is an “illusion” which destroys one in the “spirit world”.

 

A similar thing can be seen in regards to “Prosperity Churches” vs “Poorer Churches” likewise in analogy.

 

That’s why Christ put the Command of PERFECTION not as “prosperity” but the CHARITY DOCTRINE:

 

“… 21JESUS said to him, “IF you want to be PERFECT, go, SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away SORROWFUL, for he had GREAT POSSESSIONS. 23Then JESUS said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is HARD for a RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 24And AGAIN I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. …” (Matthew 19:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

That’s why in CHRIST’s OWN WORDS here we see that the GREATEST NUMBER is “ZERO” for those who can do “ZERO PROSPERITY” of “… SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME. …” which I CANNOT DO (so even a scrap of heaven or at the final new earth would suffice for me) but the Greatest Fathers of the Church the world has even known (as I have quoted say in the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook) have done it remarkably. Please note that letting go of wealth and living like a hermit does NOT count much if the “wealth was left to the family” earlier as that person by relative measure did NOT give anything to the poor. I mean the best is to give some to family and according to one’s ability give to the poor as well.

 

An Edifying Comment: Can the country of origin of such persons allow those NOT of same race NOR of same religion to hold such portfolio likewise? (or will they never vote for such even if the candidate is good? NOT just in POLITICS but any field too like for example in Education even they grab the “paying teaching opportunities to themselves instead of the candidate of best qualification among them even” as that’s their “moral level even toward same race but different religion” is only at that level of “prejudice” even. So, Let all Answer God One Day).

 

Conclusion

 

You see it is People who send themselves to “Hell” (even if “Eternal so be it”) due to “their own injustice and unholiness within them” as these few points in comparison itself shows.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Especially those which affect the “future in the Spirit World and beyond” after we die toward the “Resurrection”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

St. Ambrose of Milan seems to be very CONFIDENT of SUCH NON ELECT SALVATION from the LAKE of FIRE CONTEXT as his quotes next seem to point, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Source: https://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib04.htm

 

 

Page 1867 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook .

Page 1908 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook

 

 

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“Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24 December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

 

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Short Description of Book

 

This Book explores the Bible Verses to see whether Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity can be true simultaneously in some way especially from writings of the Church Fathers who were direct disciples of the Apostles themselves or their disciples to understand this better via those writings called the Apostolic Fathers. We only quote the Apostolic Fathers Writings as modern Scholarship calls it such since these are the earliest Christian Writings known and which were accepted in First Christianity. The later fathers and Christians even if 1 million of them believe in it can err since they may be repeating what one particular church father has said or interpreted. In light of this fact, it may be best to look at these earliest and best ones known to Christianity outside the Bible.

 

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Matthew 25:31 – 46 Context as Judgment Day and not the Second Coming of Christ with St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr to Possibilities Uncertain

 

 

0) Background Information

1. i) Judgment Day is only 1000 years after the Second Coming of Christ

 

“… 11Now I SAW HEAVEN OPENED, and behold, a white horse. And HE WHO SAT on him was called FAITHFUL and TRUE, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12HIS EYES WERE LIKE A FLAME OF FIRE, and on HIS HEAD WERE MANY CROWNS. He [e]had a NAME WRITTEN THAT NO ONE KNEW EXCEPT HIMSELF.  … 19And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war AGAINST HIM WHO SAT ON THE HORSE and against His army. 20Then THE BEAST WAS CAPTURED, and WITH HIM THE FALSE PROPHET who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. THESE TWO WERE CAST ALIVE into THE LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone. … 1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is THE DEVIL AND SATAN, AND BOUND HIM FOR A THOUSAND YEARS; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE TILL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. But AFTER THESE THINGS HE MUST BE RELEASED FOR A LITTLE WHILE. … “… 7NOW WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE EXPIRED, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11THEN I SAW A GREAT WHITE THRONE and HIM WHO SAT ON IT, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. …”  (Revelation 19:11 – 12, 19 – 20, Revelation 20:1 – 3, 7 – 15, NKJV)

1. ii) There are wicked mortals in the 1000 years Millennial Reign Timeline

 

“…7NOW WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE EXPIRED, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to DECEIVE THE NATIONS which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. …” (Revelation 20:7 – 9, NKJV)

 

iii) There are righteous mortals in the 1000 years Millennial Reign Timeline

 

“… 17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the SINNER being AN HUNDRED YEARS OLD SHALL BE ACCURSED. 21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. …” (Isaiah 65:17 – 22, KJV)

 

Note: Verse 17 refers to a “start of restoration” of the Jerusalem/earth too here in the “Old earth and Old Heavens” as Revelation 20:7 – 10 prior describes too as the “this Old Earth and Heavens” only “pass away” at the end of this 1000 years (Revelation 20:11) where only “AFTER JUDGMENT DAY” the “New Heavens and New Earth” will replace these completely (Revelation 21:1).

 

“… 12looking for and hastening the COMING of the DAY OF GOD, because of which the HEAVENS will be DISSOLVED, being on FIRE, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH in which righteousness dwells. …” (2 Peter 3:12 – 13, NKJV)

 

The primary reason for this is because as 2 Peter 3:12 – 13 points clearly is that the “… NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH in which righteousness dwells. …” means that the Final New Earth and New Heavens (after Judgment Day) cannot be touched by a sinful mortal at all!

 

Can you see it?

 

Since the 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ also consists of “sinners” or mortals who are “righteous” (e.g. Isaiah 65:20 above) and also “wicked” (e.g. Revelation 20:7 – 10 In quote earlier), hence it cannot be the Context of the Final “New Heavens and New Earth” because THESE CANNOT be TOUCHED BY SINNERS/MORTALS at ALL hence only occurs “after” Judgment Day as both Revelation 21:1 and 2 Peter 3:12 – 13 refers to this Context clearly.

 

Let’s Understand each of the above claims via St. Irenaeous Teaching the same which can be the ‘Safe Route Scripturally’ here since “… knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV)

 

1) St. Irenaeous of Lyons uses Matthew 25:31 – 46 as Referring to the Context of Judgment Day only and not the Second Coming of Christ:

 

“… 2. If, however, it were truly one Father who confers rest, and another God who has prepared the fire, their sons would have been equally different [one from the other]; one, indeed, sending [men] into the Father’s kingdom, but the other into eternal fire. But inasmuch as one and the same Lord has pointed out that the WHOLE HUMAN RACE SHALL BE DIVIDED AT JUDGMENT, ” AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDETH THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS,” [Matthew 25:32] and that to some He will say, “Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you,” [Matthew 25:34] but to others, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels,” [Matthew 25:41] one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], “making peace and creating evil things,” preparing fit things for both; …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book IV, Chapter XL, Points 2-partial)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html

 

*[Emphasis Mine]

 

Comment:

 

1) The phrase “…WHOLE HUMAN RACE SHALL BE DIVIDED AT JUDMENT, …” = Final Judgment on Judgment Day

 

2) The Phrases “… ” AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDETH THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS,” [Matthew 25:32] …” or “… “Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you,” [Matthew 25:34] but to others, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels,” [Matthew 25:41]  …” = All Quoting Matthew 25:31 – 46 for the Final “Judgment DAY Context as it involves THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE“.

 

Can you please show me the reverse (with Source), namely, St. Irenaeous quoting Matthew 25:31 – 46 referring to the Second Coming of Christ at the start of the 1000 years instead as “you claim?”

 

Between your scholars and St. Irenaeous alone, I prefer St. Irenaeous ya.

This is “not” a biased statement but a cautious one because they same way ‘some of these modern scholars’ reject St. Irenaeous, we reject them back too likewise (which is fair).

Personally, the chances of St. Irenaeous making an error of doctrine here is very low as he was a hearer of St. Polycarp who in turn was Disciple of St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation.

 

The Roman Catholics/Orthodox did “not” change these “Chiliasm” Doctrine quotes because they themselves have rejected this First Christianity Doctrine Taught the Greats of the Faith In the past but somehow still have “honestly” preserved these writings which reveal it.

Logic: If someone wants to “change” a writing, they would “modify” it to represent what they believe and many of the “Chiliasm” quotes in St. Irenaeous or are preserved intact despite the official Roman Catholic Position rejected it following after Origen/Clement of Alexandria who influenced St. Augustine on this instead (as I have discussed some details in Page 89 onward in book in link below):

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

2) St. Irenaeous of Lyons for the Context that the 1000 years Millennial Reign Fulfills Jewish Prophecies as Chiliasm Doctrine Taught

 

“… 1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: “Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, “He who hath renewed the face of the earth.” He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.” And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life.” For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

 

3. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, “Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed.” But “the field is the world.” And therefore he added, “God give to thee of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of corn and wine. And let the nations serve thee, and kings bow down to thee; and be thou lord over thy brother, and thy father’s sons shall bow down to thee: cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.” If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years; and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him. Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The predicted blessing, therefore, belongs unquestionably to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous shall bear rule upon their rising from the dead; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the elders who saw John, the disciple of the Lord, related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times, and say: The days will come, in which vines shall grow, each having ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in each one of the shoots ten thousand dusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five and twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, “I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.” In like manner [the Lord declared] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear should have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds (quinque bilibres) of clear, pure, fine flour; and that all other fruit-bearing trees, and seeds and grass, would produce in similar proportions (secundum congruentiam iis consequentem); and that all animals feeding [only] on the productions of the earth, should [in those days] become peaceful and harmonious among each other, and be in perfect subjection to man.

 

4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (suntetagme/na) by him. And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, `How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ‘the Lord declared, `They who shall come to these [times] shall see.'” When prophesying of these times, therefore, Esaias says: “The wolf also shall feed with the lamb, and the leopard shall take his rest with the kid; the calf also, and the bull, and the lion shall eat together; and a little boy shall lead them. The ox and the bear shall feed together, and their young ones shall agree together; and the lion shall eat straw as well as the ox. And the infant boy shall thrust his hand into the asp’s den, into the nest also of the adder’s brood; and they shall do no harm, nor have power to hurt anything in my holy mountain.” And again he says, in recapitulation, “Wolves and lambs shall then browse together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and the serpent earth as if it were bread; and they shall neither hurt nor annoy anything in my holy mountain, saith the Lord.” I am quite aware that some persons endeavour to refer these words to the case of savage men, both of different nations and various habits, who come to believe, and when they have believed, act in harmony with the righteous. But although this is [true] now with regard to some men coming from various nations to the harmony of the faith, nevertheless in the resurrection of the just [the words shall also apply] to those animals mentioned. For God is non in all things. And it is right that when the creation is restored, all the animals should obey and be in subjection to man, and revert to the food originally given by God (for they had been originally subjected in obedience to Adam), that is, the productions of the earth. But some other occasion, and not the present, is [to be sought] for showing that the lion shall [then] feed on straw. And this indicates the large size and rich quality of the fruits. For if that animal, the lion, feeds upon straw [at that period], of what a quality must the wheat itself be whose straw shall serve as suitable food for lions? …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXIII, Points 1 – 4)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

Example Focus Quote from the above [and please note the phrase “times of the kingdom” or “appointed kingdom” as Blessed St. Irenaeous refers to the Chiliast position of the Millennial Reign when he mentions these]:

 

“… cursed shall be he who shall curse thee, and blessed shall be he who shall bless thee.”[Genesis 12:3] If any one, then, does not accept these things as referring to the appointed kingdom, he must fall into much contradiction and contrariety, as is the case with the Jews, who are involved in absolute perplexity. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years; and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

Who doubted that this is a right interpretation of these Abrahamic Promises?

“… 4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (suntetagme/na) by him. And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers.” And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, `How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ‘the Lord declared, `They who shall come to these [times] shall see.'” …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

So, let us not have the ‘faith of Judas’ in denying these things, can you see it?

 

3) St. Irenaeous of Lyons’ Quote for a Possible Second badge of Righteous to be Saved on Judgment Day as a “non-Elect Salvation” because this is 1000 years after the Christian Salvation at the Second Coming of Christ

 

1. i) St. Irenaeous of Lyons affirmed St. Justin Martyr as a faithful witness to the same Doctrine

 

“… In his book against Marcion, JUSTIN DOES WELL SAY: “I would not have believed the Lord Himself, if He had announced any other than He who is our framer, maker, and nourisher. But because the only-begotten Son came to us from the one God, who both made this world and formed us, and contains and administers all things, summing up His own handiwork in Himself, my faith towards Him is steadfast, and my love to the Father immoveable, God bestowing both upon us.” …” …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 4, Chapter VI, Point 2)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html

 

How reliable is St. Justin Martyr? Example other First Christianity quote:

 

” … And Justin of Neapolis, a man who was not far separated from the apostles either in age or excellence, says that that which is mortal is inherited, but that which is immortal inherits; and that the flesh indeed dies, but the kingdom of heaven lives. …” — From METHODIUS On the Resurrection, in Photius. (Fragment V, St. Justin Martyr’s Lost Writings)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-fragments.html

 

Note: Justin of Neapolis = Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

What does this have to do with the discussion here? I will show with a quote by St. Justin Martyr himself (who believes the same ‘Chiliasm’ Doctrine as St. Irenaeous) that “ALL CHRISTIANS/ALL the ELECT” are Saved in the Second Coming of Christ and Reign together in the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ next.

 

1. ii) St. Justin Martyr’s Quote on All Christians/Elect are Saved 1000 years Before Judgment Day and reign as “Immortals” alongside these mortals of the Millennial Reign

 

“… “… But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: ‘For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create’…For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ is connected with this subject [2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4]. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST [1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 ] would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10]; and that thereafter the GENERAL, and in short, the ETERNAL RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT of ALL MEN would LIKEWISE TAKE PLACE [Revelation 20:11 – 15, Matthew 25:31 – 46]. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36] …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, CHAPTER LXXXI)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

[Emphasis Mine throughout for clarity]

 

Comments:

 

1. Christians as Immortals here: “… Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection. [Luke 20:35 – 36] …”

 

1. All Christians Saved in the First Resurrection “… who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN OUR CHRIST [1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18, Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 ] would dwell a THOUSAND YEARS in Jerusalem [Revelation 20:4 – 10];

 

iii. St. Justin does “not” say that after this 1000 years in the “General Resurrection” or “Second Resurrection” that ‘all are tossed into the Lake of Fire’ as ‘some Christians today believe’ —> “…and that thereafter the GENERAL, and in short, the ETERNAL RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT of ALL MEN would LIKEWISE TAKE PLACE [Revelation 20:11 – 15, Matthew 25:31 – 46].  …”

 

1. The problem is St. Justin’s quote above regarding this Final Judgment of All men is neither pointing to someone saved nor all condemned. We are “not sure as his other quotes doesn’t discuss this aspect particularly. So a solution might be to go to St. Irenaeous’ quote to see whether he has quoted this “Judgment Day” Context in Detail next.

 

Before that, please also notice that just like St. Justin calls Christians as equal to “Angels” (based on Luke 20:34 – 36) it can  also mean that since Christ only becomes “One Flesh” with “All Christians” (Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32) so “only Christians/the Elect” have “Celestial/Heavenly Glory Resurrected Bodies” (“Heavenly Man” in 1 Corinthians 15:49 too)  vs the “General Resurrection Bodies may be Terrestrial only” where some may be “saved” as per the word “Terrestrial Glory” is used on ‘some’ of these in 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42.

 

 

iii) St. Irenaeous’ Judgment Day Quote that it involves the “WHOLE HUMAN RACE”

 

“… the same Lord has pointed out that the WHOLE HUMAN RACE SHALL BE DIVIDED AT JUDGMENT, ” AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDETH THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS,” [Matthew 25:32] and that to some He will say, “Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you,” [Matthew 25:34] but to others, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels,” [Matthew 25:41] one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], “making peace and creating evil things,” preparing fit things for both; …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book IV, Chapter XL, Points 2-partial)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html

 

 

Comments:

 

1. a) Since Judgment Day involves the whole human race, a possibility was discussed based on this and that Revelation 20:11 – 15 likewise must mention the whole human race in some way in link below (which may be found in Pages 567 – 568 in this book too):

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161409652112784

 

1. b) Since St. Irenaeous’ quote above points to Matthew 25:31 – 46 as referring to the “Judgment Day” Context, the “Surprised Sheep of the Nations” who are only “saved” on Judgment Day (may be highlighted in Matthew 25:31 – 46) based on the ‘Charity Doctrine’ of what one did ‘… When I was Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ and thus proves that a “Second badge of Righteous” being Saved on this Judgment Day as a “non-Elect salvation clearly” by His Mercy as possible.

 

1. c) St. Irenaeous quoting Matthew 25:31 – 46 as referring to “Judgment Day Context” also makes it “possible” that a badge of ‘Righteous and Wicked rise Simultaneously’ pointing to some non-Christians being saved vs some non-Christians being condemned during this “Second Resurrection” Timeline.

 

Based  on this possibility, the following Verses may be “literal” and pointing to the “Second Resurrection”

 

“… 28Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR IS COMING in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. …” (John 5:28 – 29, NKJV)

 

“… And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. …”(Daniel 12:2, NKJV)

 

I have discussed this “Possibility” in detail at the end of this Book but please allow me to elaborate one particular point “further” as follows here with Verse below:

 

“… the HOUR IS COMING, and NOW IS, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear WILL LIVE. …” (John 5:25, NKJV)

 

Please notice carefully that Christ Uses two Different phrases here namely:

 

1. In John 5:25, “… the HOUR IS COMING, and NOW IS, …” (“Two Different Hours” pointed to here)

 

1. In John 5:28, “… 28Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR IS COMING …” (only “one hour” pointed to here)

 

Now, since the “Context” here is “Resurrection” which only happens in the “LAST DAY” referring to the 7^th Day (Sabbath) or this 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ Timeline (as discussed in Pages 328 onward in this Book) based on Verses below too as both the First and Second Resurrections must happen within this Last Day being separated by 1000 years as Revelation 20:5 clearly points too, Verses:

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall NEVER THIRST. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

“… But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. …” (Revelation 20:5, NKJV)

Why does it matter?  Combining these Verses, it may open up the “possibility” below:

 

John 5:24 – 25 = Christians who Rise at the “hour now is” (START  hour of the LAST DAY without Judgment) to be part of the First Resurrection

 

John 5:28 – 29 = some non-Christians saved while some non-Christians condemned when they ‘rise simultaneously’ in the Second Resurrection at the “hour which is coming” on the ‘Last day’ (END HOUR of this LAST DAY, separated by 1000 years).

 

If each word is to have a meaning, the phrase ” in “… the hour is coming, and now is,…” in the Verse “… the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. …” (John 5:25, NKJV) could refer to ‘those who live or saved‘ as:

 

1. i) ‘the hour now is’ (referring to the Last Day as it’s Resurrection Context) = START of the 1000 years Millennial Reign for the First Badge of Righteous = Christian Salvation

 

1. ii) ‘the hour is coming’ (referring to the Last Day as it’s Resurrection Context) = END of the 1000 years Millennial Reign into start of Judgment Day for second badge of righteous = non-Christian Salvation for some

 

The similar phrase “… the hour is coming, and now is,…” in John 4:23 in the Context of Worshipping God in “Spirit and Truth” may thus actually point to when we are Resurrected as these two badges of righteous only fully know the truth on ‘after their Resurrection’ as ‘no one knows everything fully from here as even Blessed Apostle St. Paul himself said he sees dimly only’ (in 1 Corinthians 13:12).

 

This ‘matches well’ because in John 5:28 Christ didn’t Say  “… the HOUR IS COMING, and NOW IS, …” (as He did in John 5:25, “TWO HOURS” = “TWO RESURRECTIONS”) but only “… 28Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR IS COMING …” (“ONE HOUR” = “Second Resurrection” only).

 

So, the phrase “… the HOUR IS COMING, and NOW IS, …” (in John 5:25) may thus mean “TWO RESURRECTIONS of the RIGHTEOUS to be SAVED in TWO DIFFERENT TIMES separated by 1000 years on this LAST DAY/Millennial Reign”.

 

Similarly, the phrase  “… 28Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR IS COMING …” (in John 5:28) may thus mean the Second Resurrection hour which has a “Badge of Righteous vs Wicked” rising simultaneously.

 

Does St. Irenaeous have a quote using this “same phrases”? yes as quoted next.

 

1. d) St. Irenaeous of Lyons uses the phrase “… this; for the HOUR IS COMING …” (in John 5:28)

 

“… Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XIII, Point 1)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote of John 5:28 – 29 seem to point to the “Last Trumpet” (“Second Resurrection”) pointing to “hour is coming or HOUR SHALL COME” referring to John 5:28 – 29 literal simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ which is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5).

 

The phrase “Last Trumpet” in St. Irenaeous’ usage above points to this “General Resurrection/Judgment of all Men on Judgment Day” where the word “last” also means that there must be an “earlier trumpet” blown not in the Context of Judgment but “Resurrection” purely to which it is compared which may be seen in Verses below:

 

1. The “FIRST” TRUMPET in the Context of FIRST Resurrection

 

“… 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE and REMAIN UNTIL the COMING OF THE LORD will by NO MEANS PRECEDE THOSE WHO ARE [d]ASLEEP. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD. And THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words. …” (1 Thessalonians 4:15 – 18, NKJV)

 

1. The “LAST” TRUMPET in the Context of SECOND Resurrection

 

“… 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED— 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.  …” (1 Corinthians 15:51 – 52, NKJV)

 

Is 1 Thessalonians 4:15 – 18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 52 Speaking of the ‘same trumpet’ as many Christians assume? Let’s discuss this mystery part in next page.

 

iii. This “FIRST and LAST” TRUMPET are separated by “1000 years” in the Context of Resurrection on this LAST DAY (Millennial Reign Timeline)

 

“… But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. …” (Revelation 20:5, NKJV)

 

 

1. iv) Mystery of the Last Trumpet “Possibility”

 

Firstly, we consider this “possibility” because St. Irenaeous’ quote earlier points to the usage of this Verse as referring to the Second Resurrection which is 1000 years after the First Resurrection. Common Assumption: the “Last trumpet” here is referring to the “Rapture”  since “we shall be changed” during the “First Resurrection” but is it talking about that change or something deeper? Is St. Irenaeous’ quote earlier using it on the Second Resurrection timeline as evidenced by his quoting of John 5:28 – 29 with it wrong instead?

 

Let’s Discuss this fascinating Mystery as follows assuming St. Irenaeous of Lyons is correct and that the Last Trumpet refers to the Second Resurrection:

 

1. Firstly, Let’s look at that set of Verses more closely again with Verse 50 included this time for ‘Context’:

 

“… 50Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED— 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.  …” (1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52, NKJV)

 

2. The “WE” in this Passage refers “ONLY to CHRISTIANS/ELECT”

 

3. It is “not” Written that “WE” (shall be ‘Raised incorruptible’) but only that “WE SHALL BE CHANGED”. Can you see it?

 

4. This means that “WE” at that time (already Resurrected for 1000 years, Revelation 20:4 – 6) are “BEING CHANGED” refers to “ALL CHRISTIANS” meaning it’s unlikely the “Rapture” which only the ‘alive ones are changed in twinkling of an eye’ earlier. The “we shall not asleep” may refer to some Christians undergoing first that type of change during the “Rapture” earlier drawn in analogy of comparison here. However, at the “Last Trumpet” (1000 years after Rapture), another “CHANGE” likewise seems to be echoed but this time to “ALL” CHRISTIANS which is impossible if the earlier ‘Rapture’ is meant.
5. This “BEING CHANGED” may refer actually to “OUR RESURRECTION BODIES” for Christians being Celestial/Heavenly are Changed to “Another Higher Glory” as may be mysteriously echoed as a process that never ends (as God Wills) from “GLORY to GLORY”

“… But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. …” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NKJV)

 

Sounds nice but is it supported by any authoritative First Christianity quote from this “Chiliasm” Camp? Yes, this legendary saint himself reveals this mystery likewise:

 

“… , AFTER THE SPACE OF A THOUSAND YEARS, CHANGED FROM A HUMAN AND CORRUPIBLE FORM INTO ANGELIC SIZE AND BEAUTY, where at last we virgins, when the FESTIVAL OF THE RESURRECTION IS CONSUMMATED, shall pass from the wonderful place of the tabernacle to greater and better things, ascending into the very house of God above the heavens, …” – Blessed St. Methodius of Olympus

Please consider his quote below in “full” which clearly Speaks of the “Christian/Elect Resurrection only” to undergo this “CHANGE” which ONLY TAKES PLACE at the END of the 1000 years  i.e. at the “LAST TRUMPET” when “WE SHALL BE CHANGED” as Written Twice in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, to quote:

 

“…  For I also, taking my journey, and going forth from the Egypt of this life, CAME FIRST TO THE RESURRECTION, which is the true Feast of the Tabernacles, and there having set up my tabernacle, ADORNED WITH THE FRUITS OF VIRTUE, ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE RESURRECTION, which is the DAY OF JUDGMENT, CELEBRATE WITH CHRIST THE MILLENNIUM OF REST, WHICH IS CALLED THE SEVENTH DAY, EVEN THE TRUE SABBATH. Then again from thence I, a follower of Jesus, who has entered into the heavens, Hebrews 4:14 as they also, after the rest of the Feast of Tabernacles, came into the laud of promise, come into the heavens, not continuing to remain in tabernacles — that is, my body not remaining as it was before, but, AFTER THE SPACE OF A THOUSAND YEARS, CHANGED FROM A HUMAN AND CORRUPIBLE FORM INTO ANGELIC SIZE AND BEAUTY, where at last we virgins, when the FESTIVAL OF THE RESURRECTION IS CONSUMMATED, shall pass from the wonderful place of the tabernacle to greater and better things, ascending into the very house of God above the heavens, as, says the Psalmist, in the voice of praise and thanksgiving, among such as keep holy day.  …” – Blessed St. Methodius of Olympus, bishop in Lycia. Little is known of his life. He was apparently put to death in the Diocletianic persecution. Only a small part of his extensive writing survives. The ‘Symposium [Banquet], or On Chastity’, also known as the ‘Banquet of the Ten Virgins’, extols virginity. In a treatise on the Resurrection, he took issue with Origen and upheld the identity of the resurrection body with that worn in this life. His work on Free Will is a defence of human liberty against the fatalism of the Gnostics (died c. 311 AD, Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9, Chapter 5) Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/062309.htm

 

6. The phrase “… that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; …” Written in Verse 50 here and then this change described at Judgment Day Timeline means that the “New Heavens and New Earth” are only inheritable by a CHANGE in the BODY with is NO MORE FLESH and BLOOD which St. Methodius CALLS IT ANGELIC. Can you see it?

 

7. Please notice carefully that in the First Resurrection (as per Christ’s Body too as Described in Luke 24:36 – 43), it still has “FLESH” and so “BLOOD too possibly” as per Verses below:

 

“… 36Now as they said these things, JESUS HIMSELF stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “PEACE TO YOU.” 37But they were terrified and frightened, and SUPPOSED THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE. 40[j]When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you ANY FOOD HERE?” 42So they gave Him a piece of a BROILED FISH [k]and SOME HONEYCOMB. 43And HE TOOK IT AND ATE IN THEIR PRESENCE. …” (Luke 24:36 – 43, NKJV)

 

In the Context of the First Resurrection, we (Christians) will have a Resurrected Body  with FLESH and BONES (BLOOD too) though we CANNOT DIE as Described above where as Christ Himself Demonstrated that we will EAT FOOD and Likewise.

 

So combining these Verses, we see that to “… inherit the kingdom of God; …” referring to the FINAL “NEW Earth and NEW Heavens” (Revelation 21:1) we may “not” have this “FLESH AND BLOOD” part anymore “BEING CHANGED” into “ANGELIC” Beauty of some sort at that time when the Second Resurrection happens.

Luke 20:34 – 36 may be Summarising this Change as a whole that within that AGE (AEON) of 1000 years, Christians by the end of it WILL BE CHANGED into ANGELIC BEAUTY as CHRIST HIMSELF Reveals below:

 

“… 34JESUS ANSWERED and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that AGE (Aeon/Olam), and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 20:4 – 6), NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; 36NOR CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE, FOR THEY ARE EQUAL TO THE ANGELS and ARE SONS OF GOD, being SONS OF THE RESURRECTION. …” (Luke 20:34 – 36, NKJV)

 

So Christ must be Describing this Process as a ‘whole’ as in His Resurrection He also looked Human with “FLESH and BONES” as He Himself Said (in Luke 24:39 so we will be likewise first) but could walk through walls too (John 20:24 – 29) but in the end of that AEON/AGE (referring to the 1000 years Millennial reign Context) WILL BE EQUAL TO ANGELS and ARE SONS OF GOD (in Luke 20:34 – 36 above).

8. The phrase “… , AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE …” in these Verses seems to point to a ‘SECOND RESURRECTION’ clearly. Can you see it?

The phrase “… and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE …” = Second Resurrection while in comparison “WE” (Christians/Elect/Bride) are “NOT” Raised now  as we are already Raised 1000 years earlier but are compared here to undergo that change from “no” more “flesh and blood” into “angelic beauty” when all these related Verses are taken together to see this more fully.

So, St. Ireanaeous’ quote here might be “CORRECT” all along in that this LAST TRUMPET Verse refers to the “SECOND RESURRECTION” and hence has a unique Second Badge of Righteous to be saved in a non-Elect Salvation as he quotes John 5:28 – 29 for this Timeline which means it is “LITERAL” (and since we may miss knowing it, and that’s why Christ may have pointed the “DO NOT MARVEL” part for this), Verses:

 

“… 28Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR IS COMING in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. …” (John 5:28 – 29, NKJV)

This agrees well to these set of Verses next too (which we consider as a “possibility” too because St. Irenaeous’ quote seem to point Generally and hence we may “speculate” the details), Verses:

 

“… 39ALL FLESH IS NOT THE SAME FLESH, but there is one kind [f]of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40There are also [g]CELESTIAL BODIES and [h]TERRESTRIAL BODIES; but the GLORY of the CELESTIAL is one, and the GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42So also is the RESURRECTION of THE DEAD.  …” (1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42, NKJV)

 

1. i) CELESTIAL BODIES = relates or belong to “Heavenly bodies” (Christian Resurrection Bodies)
2. ii) TERRESTRIAL BODIES = relates to “earthly bodies” (some non-Christians who are saved’s resurrection bodies)

 

Note: Now the word “Glory” in “… GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another …” (mentioned clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:40) in this Context of “Resurrection of the Dead” (1 Corinthians 15:42)  itself indicates that some of the of the TERRESTRIAL RESURRECTION BODIES are also “Saved” for it doesn’t seem logical for a body raised with “glory” to be “unsaved“. To say that this “Terrestrial Glory” ones refers to some lower Christians contradicts Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 which describes Christ Sharing One Flesh with all Christians in some way and so they must be “CELESTIAL (Heavenly) RESURRECTION GLORY Bodies only“.

 

Also, in this Same Chapter the word “we” in “…  WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE of the HEAVENLY MAN. …” (1 Corinthians 15:49) refers only to “Christians”  who are called here as “Heavenly Man” meaning “CELESTIAL (Heavenly) RESURRECTION GLORY Bodies only” again so if some Christians have only “… GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another …” (1 Corinthians 15:40) type of Resurrection Body (1 Corinthians 15:42), it’s a clear contradiction.

 

Also the phrase here in 1 Corinthians 15:42 comparing these two types of Glory of Celestial (Heavenly) Vs Terrestrial (Earthly) as “another” clearly implies that these are speaking of two classes of Resurrection Bodies distinctly where the word “Glory” indicates these are among the “saved” most likely.

Am I stretching these “possibilities” too far?

I am “not” sure but I discussed more like a brief summary in link below (or in Pages 571) of this same book:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161404805337784

 

I repeat, I could be wrong but reading these Verses literally seem to point this as a “possibility” (“not Doctrine”) and when God Reveals it One Day I accept it either way.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

Is 1 Corinthians 15:52 Speaking of a Last Trumpet at the end of the 1000 years Millennial Reign instead of the Rapture at the Second Coming of Christ?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161429161137784

 

Yes, according to Ambrosiaster:

 

“… 1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. …”

 

“… THE LAST TRUMPET is the one which is sounded when the battle is over. AFTER A THOUSAND YEARS, when the antichrist has been destroyed and THE SAVIOR HAS REIGNED, SATAN WILL BE RELEASED FROM HIS PRISON in order to lead astray the nations of Gog and Magog, who are demons, in order that they might attack the fortresses of the saints. They will fail, and when they are defeated they will SUFFER THE SAME FATE AS THE ANTICHRIST AND THE FALSE PROPHET. IT IS THEN THAT THE LAST TRUMPET WILL SOUND THE FINAL VICTORY. …” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD)

 

Source (Commentary on Paul’s Epistles 1 Corinthians 15:52):

http://catenabible.com/com/584c89a19ac03ecd4b8e5f75

 

I have discussed this in detail in pages 553 to 560 in Book titled “Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven” in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p7I45y8puwfyL4Ev1izPKvm0XQ6I551P/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

Which based on St. Irenaeous of Lyon’s usage too which may point to this same “Second Resurrection” timeline at the end of the 1000 years giving the “possibility” that a “Second Badge of Righteous” may be Saved at that time too while Christians get “Changed” into “Angelic Glory” (Details with Quotes in pages quoted), here’s St. Irenaeous’ quote without explanation for comparison (quoting the “LAST TRUMPET” Verse part too from this 1 Corinthians 15:52):

 

“… Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XIII, Point 1)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

Original Post link with explanation too:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161411664417784/

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

First Christianity – did anyone Teach Pre-tribulation Rapture Theory?

 

Question

 

Among first Christianity writings, pre-tribulation rapture theorists claim that St. Irenaeous of Lyons, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Apocalypse of Elijah taught Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine or the Didache and St. Victorinus (as per the Thesis link in Page 500 here). Is this true?

 

Reply

 

Let’s look at each quote they refer to and you can decide if it is so after considering it:

 

1) St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons is a Chiliast and did not teach any Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The false claim that he used the example of righteous Enoch to Teach Rapture is totally dubious as let’s see that passage here:

 

“… [In order to learn] that bodies did continue in existence for a lengthened period, as long as it was God’s good pleasure that they should flourish, let [these heretics] read the Scriptures, and they will find that our predecessors advanced beyond seven hundred, eight hundred, and nine hundred years of age; and that their bodies kept pace with the protracted length of their days, and participated in life as long as God willed that they should live. But why do I refer to these men? For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up. For by means of the very same hands through which they were moulded at the beginning, did they receive this translation and assumption. For in Adam the hands of God had become accustomed to set in order, to rule, and to sustain His own workmanship, and to bring it and place it where they pleased. Where, then, was the first man placed? In paradise certainly, as the Scripture declares “And God planted a garden [paradisum] eastward in Eden, and there He placed the man whom He had formed.” And then afterwards when [man] proved disobedient, he was cast out thence into this world. Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition ), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter 5, Point 1)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

Blessed St. Irenaeous is Speaking of the “Rapture” in the aspect of God can change a Body which is Alive to a New Resurrected Body “without having to die” giving the Analogy of Enoch & Elijah likewise as some doubted God’s Ability to do this as Blessed St. Paul the Apostle wrote likewise regarding this ‘Body Change’ Mystery during the ‘Great Gathering of the Elect’ (Mark 13:27, 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 52, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:40 – 44, Luke 17:26 – 36). This has nothing to do with ‘escaping the Great Tribulation’ as Blessed St. Irenaeous is not even ‘talking about that topic’ in quote above at all.

 

Did St. Ireneaous of Lyons believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

 

“… Often Irenaeus is grouped with other early church fathers as teaching historic premillennialism which maintain a belief in the earthly reign of Christ but differ from dispensational premillennialism in their view of the rapture as to when the translation of saints occurs. In Against Heresies (V.XXIX.1) he says “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'” …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus

 

In the Wikipedia Link above, it incorrectly quotes Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons as believing in a ‘Pre-Mid-Tribulation Rapture’.  Truth is, Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons only believed in post-Tribulation Rapture which is a well known fact among scholars too. Here is that quote in full:

“… 1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance-in fact, as nothing; ” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXIX, Point 1)

Translation Source:http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

The Church is clearly caught “from this” where the “this” refers to the “Final Great Tribulation” does not mean that it escapes it but Its Salvation comes suddenly during when this Tribulation occurs as Christ Returns ‘Suddenly’.

This correct context is clear from St. Irenaeous’ other writings as follows:

 

“… For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXV, Point 1)

Translation Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

Focus Phrases: “… who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. …”

 

“who have suffered tribulation” =  Those Christians who were tortured or died in the hands of the Antichrist.

 

” as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one which” =  Some Christians who are still alive* when Christ Returns to Destroy the Antichrist

 

*this existence is what both pre-trib and mid-trib believers deny because if a single Christian (Elect) is alive when Christ Returns, the only way for him to get his new resurrection body will be to undergo “rapture” which puts the rapture at the end of the 7 years or they must now assume that there are two raptures. If they say this Christian is saved later via normal death, then that he didn’t participate in the First Resurrection at all which contradicts the fact that he ‘misses’ the Wedding of the lambs (Revelation 19:6 – 10) which occurs at Christ’s Second Coming at the End of 7 Years (Revelation 19:11 – 21) followed by a gap of 1000 years as the Millennial Regin (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which means ‘this Christian’ is only saved 1000 years later in the ‘Second Resurrection’ (Revelation 20:5). This is highly unlikely because ‘every Christian’ becomes ‘One Flesh’ with Christ in some way as part of ‘His Church’ via the Resurrection and Wedding of the Lamb as Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 and since this happens at least 1000 years earlier (as Pre-Trib / Mid-Trib believers themselves claim this happens somewhere during the 7 year antichrist period), this Christian who is alive at Christ’s Second Coming ‘missed it’ which is a “contradiction” if “he is participating in a Christian (Elect) Salvation”. This fact itself dispels that St. Irenaeous’ words can be interpreted to mean either pre-trib or mid-trib rapture, which is impossible.

 

I will help break it down from quote above:

 

1) RAPTURE HAPPENS AFTER THE SECOND COMING of CHRIST which DESTROYS THE ANTICHRIST

 

“… For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;. …” (St. Irenaeous)

Comment: There is “no” mid-trib rapture mentioned by St. Irenaeous here but that this occurs only AFTER the COMING of the ANTICHRIST and Revelation 19:19 – 20 puts it at the END of the Antichrist Reign meaning St. Irenaeous’ quote below refers to the END of the Antichrist Reign during the SECOND COMING of CHRIST  (not the middle of the 3.5 years as mid-trib rapture believers claim)

 

2) and some CHRISTIANS are STILL ALIVE in the FLESH when CHRIST RETURNS to DESTROY the ANTICHRIST and the RAPTURE (is implied for them)

 

“… and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

Comment: St. Irenaeous is mentioning ‘few type of Elect/Christians’ who are to be Gathered for this “First Resurrection of the Just” (Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18) which occurs clearly at the end of this 7 years of the Antichrist Timeline, namely:

 

1. “… and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh …” = Those who are alive when Christ Returns at the end of 7 years (as discussed a page earlier, this is what both mid-trib and pre-trib position denies to exist for any elect/Christian Salvation type but St. Irenaeous clearly mention this existence = The Elect Gathered from Heaven at Christ’s Second Coming** “from the earth” as Mark 13:27 clearly Reveals (Those Christians who are still alive at this time and are awaiting Rapture to undergo the equivalent Bodily Resurrection change for them without the usual death)

 

1. “… awaiting Him from heaven …” = The Elect Gathered from Heaven at Christ’s Second Coming** from the Heavens” as Mark 13:27 clearly Reveals (those Christians who have died in the flesh and are awaiting to be Resurrected)

 

iii. “… , and who have suffered tribulation …” = either those who died in this final tribulation or are still wounded but alive under the Antichrist’s capture

 

1. “… as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one which …” = those who are alive but have somehow escaped the Antichrist’s 7 year Rule till Christ has Returned at the end of it

 

1. “… when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. …” = all of the above become Christian/Elect Salvation as St. Irenaeous only uses this phrase “crowned with incorruption” to refer to the ‘First Resurrection of the Dead’ and Rapture clearly (1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18) ushering in the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ immediately Revelation 20:4 – 6).

 

Can you see it? All those quotes above are by St. Irenaeous only and it shows that he clearly believed in Post-Tribulation Rapture only. Don’t believe the ‘Wikipedia’ —> Research its source.

 

Conclusion – Let’s Just use Christ’s Most Blessed Words only next to See this

Please consider this next set of Verses which is perhaps the clearest proof of some “Christians/Elect”  who did “not” die in the hands of the Antichrist but will survive mortally till the end of the 7 years till Christ Returns who undergo “Rapture” at the end of this 7 years only (so no mid-trib rapture either as both deny such a Christian to exist but St. Irenaeou’s quote prior and Bible Verses below point otherwise), Verses:

 

“… 24“But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING  in the CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and GATHER TOGETHER HIS [h]ELECT from the four winds, from the FARTHEST PART OF THE EARTH  to the FARTHEST PART OF HEAVEN. …” (Mark 13:24 – 27, NKJV)

 

“… 25“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth DISTRESS OF NATIONS, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26MEN’S HEART FAILING THEM FROM FEAR and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27THEN THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY. 28NOW WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO HAPPEN, LOOK UP and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR.” …” (Luke 21:25 – 28, NKJV)

Comments:

 

1) Don’t be misled by silly claims like Mark 13:24 – 27 Speaks of “Public” Second Coming of Christ at the end of 7 years while Luke 21:25 – 28 refers to “another Public” Coming of Christ at 3.5 years. Why?

 

The equivalent phrases occur in “both these Verses”  means that this is the “same” and “one Second Coming of Christ” Described in Two Verses, namely:

 

“… 26Then THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING  in the CLOUDS with great power and glory. …” (Mark 13:26) = “… 27THEN THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY …” (Luke 21:27)

 

Christ isn’t going to come ‘Twice’ in the ‘same manner’ described in these Two Verses.

 

2) Difference in Detail

 

Please don’t be misled in confusing questions like this, example (from a mid-trib believer who believes that Matthew 25:31 – 46 refers to the ‘Second Coming of Christ’ instead of ‘Judgment day’):

 

‘… Where is the judgment of Satan and death and hades being cast into Gehenna in Mathew 25 if it is the final judgement? Why is that judgment called the separation of the sheep and goats? Where are the books opened? …’

 

Reply: “…  Different Verses Reveals different details as that’s mentioned in Revelation 20:11 – 15. That’s also like asking where does Daniel 12:2 or John 5:28 – 29 mention Hades and Death cast into Gehenna if they’re referring to the Final Judgment? Or where is the Books opened mentioned in Daniel 12:2 or in John 5:28 – 29 too? Or even the word sheep used for the righteous in either Daniel 12:2 or John 5:28 – 29? …”

 

What has this to do with our consideration here?

 

Similarly, both Mark 13:24 – 27 and Luke 21:25 – 28 Speak of the Same Second Coming of Christ and so since the details recorded are different in some parts, we can Combine Scripture here to see the following details:

 

1. i) The phrase “… 24“But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION …” = This Same Second Coming of Christ happens at the end of the 7 years Antichrist Time after the Tribulation

 

1. ii) The phrase “… . 27THEN THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY .…” = It is not a “Secret” Coming but a “Public” one witnessed by those “… 26MEN’S HEART FAILING THEM FROM FEAR …” and from those referred to as “… ; and on the earth DISTRESS OF NATIONS, with perplexity, …”.

 

iii) The phrase “… , and GATHER TOGETHER HIS [h]ELECT from the four winds, from the FARTHEST PART OF THE EARTH  to the FARTHEST PART OF HEAVEN. …” = Some Elect are gathered from heaven (in souls/spirits who are awaiting their First Resurrection as the “Dead in Christ Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16” vs some Elect are gathered from the earth (meaning these are still alive at the end of this Antichrist’s 7 years and so may be “Raptured” soon, 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

3. iv) The phrase “… 28NOW WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO HAPPEN, LOOK UP and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR.” …” = Refers to Christians/Elect only as they are still “alive and remain” when this happens at Christ’s Second Coming at the “end of 7 year Antichrist Timeline” and are going to be “Raptured” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Their “redemption” here is referring to getting a New transformed Resurrection Body (Romans 8:23) via Rapture instead of the usual death and it is “near” means this hasn’t happened yet “contradicting both the pre-trib and mid-trib” claims that this has happened either 3.5 or 7 years “earlier” or they must now say that there are “two raptures” which itself is just as unlikely. Why is it “near”? Because as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Reveals, they may be watching the ‘Gathering of the Elect from Heaven first which is the Dead in Christ Rise First with their Resurrection Bodies’ (1 Thessalonians 4:16) to finish first as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 clearly mentions that the “Rapture” will “not precede/not go before/not happen before” this ‘Dead in Christ Rise First’. So when the Dead in Christ have all Risen, they too will change in the “Twinkling of an eye” by “rapture” into their Glorious Bodies.

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote matches this Post Tribulation Rapture understanding with Christ’s Words only above clearly.

 

 

 

More is discussed in link below:

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159508028537784

 

2) The Shepherd of Hermas

 

The ‘Escaped Elect’ Mystery in the Shepherd of Hermas, please consider: The Analogy of ‘Escape’ given in the Shepherd of Hermas is earthly escape or being preserved in the Flesh during His Return

 

Shepherd of Hermas has always been misquoted there. It is not talking about Rapture at all. He Speaks of a certain ‘tribulation’ at that time whom that person has escaped as there are many antichrists (1 John 2:18) and therefore he says that ‘warn others of a next great tribulation’ (meaning that at least two tribulations are compared in the quote you quoted), let’s look closely again:

 

“… You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord, and He will direct them. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 4, Chapter II)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

The tribulation of that time which he escaped: “… You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. …”

 

His message to the Elect next:

 

“… Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming … it will be possible for you to escape it”

 

Ah, there you have a ‘future Great Tribulation’ and the one he ‘escaped’ is a “type” (not that Final Tribulation itself) which is ‘coming’ (in the future) where ‘the Elect who escape’ are NOT ‘Pre-Tribulation’ Rapture but those who do NOT get caught by the AntiChrist/Beast being ‘alive even when He Returns’ as the explanations next will prove with “Bible Verses” too with the Apocalypse of Elijah below.

 

This agrees with the Saint Ephrem writing quoted too where the ‘escape’ is by ‘death’ (not rapture) even ‘before all these things happen’ (meaning that it does “not” occur in their lifetime):

 

“For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”  (Latin Pseudo-Ephraem)

or

“Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: ‘Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!” (Syraic Pseudo-Ephraem)

 

Source:

https://www.bible.ca/rapture-pseudo-ephraem-latin-syraic-texts.htm

 

Source Post:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159543696882784

 

Another way to view this quote is to understand that the phrase “… it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, …” is Written pointing to this phrase immediately “… and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. …” meaning that the escape spoken of is “not” being in “pre-Trib Rapture’ but in that ‘the Great Tribulation does “not” happen in their lifetime’. Can you see it?

 

In other words, the phrase “… it will be possible for you to escape it, …” points next to ‘this escape’ not described as being caught up in heaven here but as “… ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly …” meaning that the ‘… the rest of the days of your life …’ are spent on earth (not raptured into heaven) in that ‘these who escape dies a physical death (implied)’ simply because they ‘served the Lord Faithfully’ and so the reward is that ‘the Final Great Tribulation does “not” happen in their lifetime’.

 

The best Context for what the Shepherd of Hermas meant by this ‘escape of the Great Tribulation’ is most clearly seen just ‘immediately’ in the next consecutive Verses below (nothing skipped in between from the earlier quote which the ‘pre-trib rapture’ writers ‘skipped’ and so could have ‘missed’ this context clearly), to quote:

 

“… I asked her about the four colours which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, “Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters.” “Yea, Lady, said I, “make known to me what they are.” “Listen,” said she: “the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but THE GOLDEN PART ARE YOU WHO HAVE ESCAPED FROM THIS WORLD. For AS GOLD IS TESTED BY FIRE, and thus becomes useful, SO ARE YOU TESTED WHO DWELL IN IT. THOSE, THEREFORE, WHO CONTINUE STEDFAST,  and ARE PUT THROUGH THE FIRE, WILL BE PURIFIED BY MEANS OF IT. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the ELECT OF GOD WILL DWELL, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. THIS THEN IS THE TYPE OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION THAT IS TO COME. If ye wish it, it will be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before.” And saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that beast was coming. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Vision IV, Chapter III)

 

Source:

 

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

It doesn’t get any clearer than this because the Context for this definition of which “…  THIS THEN IS THE TYPE OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION THAT IS TO COME. If ye wish it, it will be nothing.  …” (which in Vision IV, Chapter II quote earlier was told as ‘escaped by the elect’) is referring to this Context as explained here as —> “… THE GOLDEN PART ARE YOU WHO HAVE ESCAPED FROM THIS WORLD.  …” (meaning escaped from “not” being polluted by this world) —> as the quote continues revealing the meaning of this as “… For AS GOLD IS TESTED BY FIRE, and thus becomes useful, SO ARE YOU TESTED WHO DWELL IN IT. THOSE, THEREFORE, WHO CONTINUE STEDFAST,  and ARE PUT THROUGH THE FIRE, WILL BE PURIFIED BY MEANS OF IT.  …” (which doesn’t sound like ‘being untested WITH FIRE indicating suffering by escaping it via pre-trib rapture’ but rather as FIRE enduring the SUFFERING for FAITH). Can you see it?

 

So the ‘escape’ meant is clearly having a ‘faith that endures to the end’ in FIRE of SUFFRERING but “not” perishing “nor” tainted with the world.

 

Are the ‘Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theorists’ ready to believe in the afterlife Salvation Hope as Described in the Shepherd of Hermas even toward the “unbaptized” in a ‘non-Elect Salvation’ as discussed in previous posts? or are they only going to believe this quote from the Shepherd of Hermas even quoting it wrongly to intend a meaning that is not taught as we have seen?

 

3) Apocalypse of Elijah

 

Did Apocalypse of Elijah teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory?

 

Each quote next is from the ‘Apocalypse of Elijah’ translation below:

http://www.3-in-1.net/Pseudepigrapha/Apocalypse%20of%20Elijah/The%20Apocalypse%20of%20Elijah.htm

 

It’s interesting how these ‘Rapture Theorists’ who earlier were all ‘Sola Scriptura’ are not quoting ‘out of the Bible Sources’ to try prove ‘Pre-Tribulation Rapture’ even believing this ‘out of the Bible Books’ contradicting their previous faith of ‘Bible only’. I was always open to any orthodox First Christianity writings, so let’s see these quotes and more:

 

1. i) Elijah and Enoch

 

Blessed Prophets Elijah and Enoch will Return to fight the Antichrist/Beast for “7 full days” (i.e. during the entire period of time the Antichrist Reigns till Christ Returns and Destroys him)

 

“… 7.Then when Elijah and Enoch hear that the shameless one has revealed himself in the holy place, they will come down and fight with him saying, … 11.you have fallen from heaven like the morning stars. you were changed, and your tribe became dark for you. 12.But you are not ashamed, when you stand firmly against God you are a devil. 13.The shameless one will hear and he will be angry, and he will fight with them in the market place of the great city. And he will spend seven days fighting with them. 14.And they will spend three and one half days in the market place dead, while all the people see them …” – Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter IV, Verses 7, 11 – 14)

 

Notice that verse 13 – 14 above agrees perfectly to Revelation 11 as follows:

 

Revelation 11:1 – 6 —> The “first three and a half days/years” Enoch & Elijah prophesy

Revelation 11:7 – 8 —> The Antichrist will kill them “mid-week”

Revelation 11:9 – 10 —> Their dead bodies remain for the “last three and a half days/years”

Revelation 11:11 – 13 –> When Christ Returns at the End of this “Seven days/years”, they are Resurrected in the First Resurrection

 

1. ii) The Great Tribulation

 

ALL the SAINTS go through the Great Tribulation in some way, some fight back but not all survive to remain alive in the flesh till the Lord Returns as the Apocalypse of Elijah itself testifies as follows:

 

“… 21.He will pursue ALL of the SAINTS. They and the priests of the land will be brought back bound. 22.He will kill them and destroy them…them. And their eyes will be removed with iron spikes. 23.He will remove their skin from their heads. He will remove their nails one by one. He will command that vinegar and lime be put in their nose. 24. Now those who are unable to bear up under the tortures of that king will take gold and flee over the fords to the desert places. They will lie down as one who sleeps. 25.The Lord will receive their spirits and their souls to Himself. 26.Their flesh will petrify. No wild animals will eat them until the last day of the great judgment. 27.And they will rise up and find a place of rest. but they will not be in the kingdom of the Christ as those who have endured because the Lord said, “I will grant to them that they sit on my right hand.” 28.They will receive favor over others, and they will triumph over the son of lawlessness. And they will witness the dissolution of heaven and earth. 29.They will receive the thrones of glory and the crowns. 30.The sixty righteous ones who are prepared for this hour will hear. 31.And they will gird on the breastplate of YHWH, and they will run to Jerusalem and fight with the shameless one, saying, “All powers which the prophets have done from the beginning you have done. But you were unable to raise the dead because you have no power to give life. Therein we have known that you are the son of lawlessness.” 32.He will hear, and he will be angry and command to kindle altars 33.And the righteous ones will be bound. They will be lifted up and burned. …” – Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter IV, Verses 21 – 33)

 

iii) Israel – Special Mercy

 

“… 1.And on that day the heart of many will harden and they will flee from him, saying, “This is not the Christ. The Christ does not kill the righteous. He does not pursue men so that he might seek them, but He persuades them with signs and wonders.” 2.On that day the Christ will pity those who are His own. And He will send from heaven his sixty-four thousand angels, each of whom has six wings. 3.The sound will move heaven and earth when they give praise and glorify. 4.Now those upon whose forehead the name of Christ is written and upon whose hand is the seal both the small and the great, will be taken up upon their wings and lifted up before his wrath. 5.Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. 6.It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments…and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them. …” – Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter V, Verses 1 – 6)

 

 

 

“27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27, NKJV)

 

” 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. … 15So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Revelation 12:6, 15 – 17 NKJV)

 

Note: The Bible Verses above correlates perfectly with the Apocalypse of Elijah where only “mid-week” as the Apocalypse of Elijah also states onward the Antichrist breaks his covenant with “Israel” (the Woman) and chases the Woman. So Revelation 12:6, 15 – 17 with Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter V, Verses 1 – 6) must Speak of the same event where “only Israel” is Spared supernaturally by God and this is the part quoted by ‘Pre-Tribulation Rapture theorists’ (ehem, ehem) without quoting these other Verses as we did and clearly failing to understand that this refers to a ‘special preservation prophecy on the nation of Israel only during this time’.

 

How do I know that it could refer to ‘Israel only’ and not the ‘pre-tribulation rapture’?

 

The Phrase “holy land” in “… 5.Then Gabriel and Uriel will become a pillar of light leading them into the holy land. …” refers to “Israel only”. The fact that Blessed archangels Gabriel and Uriel help Israel at that time to be spared of the Antichrist assault supernaturally whether or not these Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter V, Verses 1 – 6) is literal or allegorical (doesn’t matter) is seen even in Revelation 12:6, 15 – 17 and the involvement of blessed archangel Michael in the heavens during that time may be contrasted in Revelation 12:7 – 12 and Daniel 12:1 too.

 

 

The phrases “… 6.It will be granted to them to eat from the tree of life. They will wear white garments…and angels will watch over them. They will not thirst, nor will the son of lawlessness be able to prevail over them. …” —> could refer to Revelation 7:9 – 17 too where these eat of the Tree of Life later but mentioned here.

 

The fact that only Israel may be spared of the antichrist’s mayhem in Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter V, Verses 1 – 6) while the Christians in the rest of the world are going to have to endure this ‘Great Tribulation’ as descried prior in the Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter IV, Verses 21 – 33) too may be seen in Verse below as Satan gets frustrated that he ‘cannot touch the nation of Israel at that time’:

 

“17And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Revelation 12:17, NKJV)

 

The phrase “17And the dragon was enraged with the woman,” means he was angry at “Israel” but he could not touch her as Verses describe prior and so the phrase “and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring,” refers to “who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” means Satan kills/tortures Christians during the ‘Great Tribulation’ proving our interpretation right (of ‘no Pre-tribulation rapture at least not for Gentile Christians’ for sure) and consistent with the Apocalypse of Elijah too.

 

However, here is possibly a more accurate Interpretation regarding some details (below):

 

Another possible interpretation is that (Chapter V, Verses 1 – 6) in the Apocalypse of Elijah refers to the ‘Return of Christ’ itself as the ‘Gathering of the Elect’ is Described here agreeing with our exegesis with First Christianity Chiliasm quotes earlier. In other words, the phrase “… 2.On that day …” in “… 2.On that day the Christ will pity those who are His own …” refers to the Day Christ has Returned (Matthew 24:29 – 30) where only after this Second Coming, He Sends His Angels to ‘Gather His Elect’ not only from the Heavens (Matthew 24:31) but also from the Earth (Mark 13:27) where the ‘Gathering on the Earth part is described in the Apocalypse of Elijah above’ which is wrongly assumed as ‘Pre-tribulation rapture by some’ (Matthew 24:31).

 

Please note carefully that there is only ‘One Gathering of Elect in Scripture’ (1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18) and this happens ‘after the tribulation’ (Matthew 24:29) and ‘after Christ’s Second Coming’ (Matthew 24:30) as the Bible Verse in Matthew 24:31 puts this Apocalypse of Elijah’s Gathering of the Elect at ‘this time’ and on “that Day” referring to this (as described in these Verses: Mark 13:27, 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 52, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:40 – 44, Luke 17:26 – 36).

 

1. iv) Chiliasm

 

Chiliasm Doctrine is Proved in Apocalypse of Elijah in quote below too, next (please compare with Revelation 20:1 – 10 as the ‘Millennial Reign of Christ’) where the Apocalypse of Elijah explains further that Revelation 19:20 & 2 Thessalonians 2:8’s destruction of the Antichrist by Christ’s Breath could refer to Him Giving Instruction to the Newly Resurrected ‘Spiritual Immortal Bodied’ (1 Corinthians 15:44) Blessed Prophets Elijah & Enoch (Revelation 11:11 – 13) due to Participating in the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6) now ‘Slay the Antichrist by Christ’s Immortal Power’, to quote:

 

“… 32.After these things, Elijah and Enoch will come down. They will lay down the flesh of the world, and they will receive their spiritual flesh. They will pursue the son of lawlessness and kill him since he is not able to speak. 33.On that day, he will dissolve in their presence like ice which was dissolved by a fire. He will perish like a serpent which has no breath in it. 34.They will say to him, “Your time has passed by for you. Now therefore you wand those who believe you will perish.” 35.They will be cast into the bottom of the abyss and it will be closed for them. 36.On that day, the Christ, the King and all His saints will come forth from heaven. 37.He will burn the earth. He will spend a thousand years upon it. 38.Because the sinners prevailed over it, He will create a new heaven and a new earth. No deadly devil will exist in them. 39.He will rule with His saints, ascending and descending, while they are always with the angels and they are with the Christ for a thousand years. …” – Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter V, Verses 32 – 39)

 

 

 

 

 

1. v) Christ Centered Universalism

 

Here’s a part those ‘Pre-Tribulation rapture theorists’ and such Pentecostals alike do NOT quote regarding the Apocalypse of Elijah (ehem, ehem):

 

“… 27.Those who belong to the righteous and … will see the sinners and those who persecuted them and those who handed them over to death in their torments. “Then the sinners [ in torment ] will see the place of the righteous. And thus GRACE WILL OCCUR. In THOSE DAYS, that which the RIGHTEOUS will ASK for MANY TIMES WILL BE GIVEN to them. …” – Apocalypse of Elijah (Chapter V, Verses 27 – 29)

 

Comment: all prayer requests especially for the Salvation of the Damned [that the ‘Eternal Hell Sentence’ may be Cancelled by His Mercy which can Triumph Over & End any Judgment Sentence, James 2:13] may be Answered causing this Universal Salvation of ‘All Men in heaven, Earth or Hell’ agreeing to the Prophecies of the Apocalypse of Peter, Apocalypse of Elijah, Apocalypse of Zephaniah, the Christian-Jewish Sibyline Oracles, the Epistle of the Apostles, St. Julian of Norwich’s Visions & even the Visions of Sadhu Sundar Singh as it was Discussed in Previous posts.

 

Apocalypse of Elijah proves our exegesis till “Christ Centered Universalism Hope” right again instead of ‘Pre-Tribulation Rapture’ when ‘half quoted’, amazing isn’t it?

 

3) Bible Verses

 

Saved in the Flesh = Some of the Elect Being Alive on Earth when He Returns after the Great Tribulation

 

“20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Matthew 24:20 – 22, NKJV)

 

Please note carefully that Christ’s Own Words regarding this ‘Great Tribulation’ in Verses above clearly depict that “no flesh would be saved” unless ” for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened” refers to ‘being alive on earth’ as the ‘Saving is referred to the Context of flesh, i.e. being kept alive till He Returns’ and not a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is taught here as ‘no flesh is said to be changed/raptured/transformed’ yet here.

 

Such a Group of ‘Faithful Churches’ is given a Special Privilege of not going through any ‘torture or tribulation’ for their faith even in past times as the Verse below reveals:

 

“7“And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write, … 10Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:7, 10, NKJV)

 

Just like only the Church of ‘Philadelphia’ to whom the Promise of ‘Escape’ (Revelation 3:7) on earth in the flesh was given in Verse above (as they were not caught up into the heavens). So looking at Revelation 3:10 allegorically itself doesn’t prove ‘Rapture Theory’ especially due to Verse below too:

 

“8“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’” ’ (Revelation 2:8 – 11, NKJV)

 

The Verse above was written to the Church at Smyrna where like the Church at Philadelphia, no unfaithfulness of any kind is mentioned here. However unlike the church at Philadelphia, this church at Smyrna has to “suffer the tribulation in the hands of Satan till Death“.

 

 

 

If matched with the Apocalypse of Elijah prophecy prior,

 

the faithful church at Philadelphia allegorically = Israel Churches

the faithful church at Smyrna allegorically = Gentile Churches

 

So, some of the faithful Christians die at the hands of the antichrist (Revelation 7:9 – 17, Revelation 20:4 – 6) while some ‘remain alive having escaped this’ till the Day He Returns and Gathers them from the ends of the earth by sending His Holy Angels (Mark 13:27, 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 52, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:40 – 44, Luke 17:26 – 36) after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), after His Return too (Matthew 24:30) when the Trumpet is Blown (Matthew 24:31).

 

More details are discussed in links below:

 

1. i) Pre-Tribulation Rapture Impossibility?

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159456468237784

 

1. ii) Sola Scriptura – No Rapture Theory in Christianity

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159455296362784

 

iii) Overcomers without Pre-Tribulation Rapture

 

https://web.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10159459809557784

 

 

 

4) The Didache

 

“… Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, FOR YOU KNOW NOT THE HOUR IN WHICH OUR LORD WILL COME. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the CREATION of MEN COME INTO THE FIRE OF TRIAL, and MANY SHALL BE MADE TO STUMBLE AND SHALL PERISH; BUT THOSE WHO ENDURE IN THEIR FAITH SHALL BE SAVED FROM UNDER THE CURSE ITSELF. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD – YET NOT OF ALL, but as it is said: “The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.” Then shall THE WORLD SEE THE LORD COMING UPON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. …” – The Didache (Chapter 16)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

The author in his Thesis (page 500 in this book for link) says that the Didache (or Teaching of the Lord through His Twelve Apostles to the Nations) Teaches “Pre-Trib Rapture” while some claim the above quotes Teaches “Mid-Trib Rapture”.

 

Please remember to read both sides and decide for yourselves which is right as this is the ‘only Apostolic Father’s Writing’ apart from the ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ quote earlier which I have discussed few pages prior and the most powerful quote by St Irenaeous of Lyons has also already been discussed to show “Post Tribulation Rapture” only is more likely mentioned or implied in these in earlier pages here.

 

Let’s discuss this writing now.

 

 

 

1. “… but be ready, FOR YOU KNOW NOT THE HOUR IN WHICH OUR LORD WILL COME …”

 

This means that the entire Context of Chapter 16 here is discussing the One Second Coming of the Lord (not two Second Comings, one secret vs one public nor not two Public Second Comings in “plural” is found here either).

 

This matches the Post Tribulation Rapture position perfectly since we can roughly estimate the Antichrist’s time in power to some accuracy of an “hour” which is meant for us to watch out and be ready since Christ is Going to Come.

 

2. “… . For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. …”

 

The Antichrist Time is Described in full as above which must come to pass first.

 

3. “…. Then shall the CREATION of MEN COME INTO THE FIRE OF TRIAL, and MANY SHALL BE MADE TO STUMBLE AND SHALL PERISH; …” = Most People during the Reign of Antichrist will “not” be saved and perish as most people in that time will turn evil.

 

4, “… BUT THOSE WHO ENDURE IN THEIR FAITH SHALL BE SAVED FROM UNDER THE CURSE ITSELF. …”

 

The author in Thesis (Page 500) claims something non-existent here namely an exception clause (using the quote above) that somehow the above quote points to Christians being “Raptured” to “escape this final great Tribulation” via “Pre-Trib or Mid-trib Rapture”. There is “no” mention of any 3.5 years or start of 7 years or even the word “rapture” or “escape” or equivalent here making his claim doubtful.

 

What does it mean then?

 

Since this is the phrase used to prove “Pre-Trib/Mid-Trib Rapture” by this author or others when they quote the Didache, let’s consider other translations for this part to see the meaning more clearly:

 

“… 16:11 Then all created mankind shall come to the fire of testing, and many shall be offended and perish; 16:12 {but they that endure} in their faith {shall be saved} by the Curse Himself. …” Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lightfoot.html

 

“… 16:5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself. …” Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-hoole.html

 

“… 5 Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and “many shall be offended” and be lost, but “they who endure” in their faith “shall be saved” by the curse itself. …”

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html

 

It is clear that “no” Pre-Trib escape “nor” Mid-Trib escape by “Rapture” is mentioned here but only that while all mankind which is alive at that time must go through this Final Great Tribulation at that time many are going to “perish” spiritually (e.g. receive the mark of the Beast) while only “those with faith” may “be saved” but “… under the CURSE itself…” indicating  that they are “going through this Great Tribulation” regardless as well.

 

The phrase “shall be saved” refers “not” to being alive on earth or being raptured but that they are “saved spiritually” instead of perishing by siding with the Antichrist in those times.

 

The clearest proof of this meaning is by The Lord Himself in Verses below which rings very similarly, Verse next.

 

 

Saved in the Flesh = Some of the Elect Being Alive on Earth when He Returns after the Great Tribulation

 

“… 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. …” (Matthew 24:20 – 22, NKJV)

 

Please note carefully that Christ’s Own Words regarding this ‘Great Tribulation’ in Verses above clearly depict that “no flesh would be saved” unless ” for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened” refers to ‘being alive on earth’ as the ‘Saving is referred to the Context of flesh, i.e. being kept alive till He Returns’ and not a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is taught here as ‘no flesh is said to be changed/raptured/transformed’ yet here.

5. “… And third, the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD – YET NOT OF ALL, but as it is said: “The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.” Then shall THE WORLD SEE THE LORD COMING UPON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. …”

 

The First “Resurrection of the Dead” (Revelation 20:4 – 6) is clearly pointed to at the end of this Antichrist period in the ending part of quote below after the Great Tribulation and not in the “middle” nor at the “start” and the “mid-trib” and “pre-trib” believers claim here. Please notice the word “third” carefully here to see this “order of time” because all three, “pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib” refer to the “phrase Dead in Christ Rise First” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) as referring to this First “Resurrection of the Dead” (Revelation 20:4 – 6). The First “Resurrection of the Dead” in Revelation 20:4 – 6 itself already contained those “who did not take the mark of the beast and were killed by the Antichrist” and so it’s hard to see it as “rapture” as they were killed unless the rapture is only for those alive when He Returns at the end of the 7 years.

 

This “third” occurrence is not by itself as it includes the Second Coming of Christ both Publicly and Globally as the WORLD (not Christians only) will SEE HIM which itself proves the only ONE SECOND COMING of CHRIST.

 

Please notice that the phrase “… YOU KNOW NOT THE HOUR IN WHICH OUR LORD WILL COME. …” is often used by both “Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib believers” to sound  an alarm that there is a “Secret” Coming of Christ or that a Coming of Christ which only ‘believers can see’ as the “rapture” but however, this idea is “not” supported at all by the Didache here since at the start it quoted this phrase to entirely mean that this points to the PUBLIC SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AT THE END OF 7 YEARS which the WORLD will SEE on the CLOUDS too, please consider the Didache below for these quotes at “its start” = “its end” below:

“… Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, FOR YOU KNOW NOT THE HOUR IN WHICH OUR LORD WILL COME. …” = “… Then shall THE WORLD SEE THE LORD COMING UPON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. …”

 

This matches the “Bible Verses” below Perfectly for the One Second Coming of Christ and only after that, the “Gathering of the Elect” = “dead in Christ Rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) + “those alive raptured” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) occurs “after the Tribulation” when the “whole WORLD Sees Christ Coming in the CLOUDS”, Verses:

 

“… 24“But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26Then THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING  in the CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27And then He will send His angels, and GATHER TOGETHER HIS [h]ELECT from the four winds, from the FARTHEST PART OF THE EARTH  to the FARTHEST PART OF HEAVEN. …” (Mark 13:24 – 27, NKJV)

 

“… 25“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth DISTRESS OF NATIONS, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26MEN’S HEART FAILING THEM FROM FEAR and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27THEN THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY. 28NOW WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO HAPPEN, LOOK UP and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR.” …” (Luke 21:25 – 28, NKJV)

 

 

Also as usual, the “Pre-Trib , Mid-Trib  or Post-Trib” Rapture believers also have another Problem when they quote this “Didache” namely, they “don’t believe the other parts”. Here are two intriguing parts of the Didache which may be equally true (whose discussions I have done in  the previous Book on pages specified) which may be downloaded for free-pdf in link below:

 

“Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24 December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

 

1. i) Charity Doctrine Lifestyle as “Ransom for your Sins”

[Discussed in Page 34, similar quote in Epistle of Barnabas in Page 77 of book in link above]

 

Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Specifically “Almsgiving/Alms” or “Money to help others Financially” to be forgiven or as “RANSOM” for “JUDGMENT of SINS” (related to the ‘Alms Delivers from Death’ concept which is discussed at the end of this Book in Appendix III)

 

“… Be not a stretcher forth of the hands to receive and a drawer of them back to give. If you have anything, THROUGH YOUR HANDS YOU SHALL GIVE RANSOM FOR YOUR SINS. Do not hesitate to give, nor complain when you give; for you shall know who is the good repayer of the hire. Do not turn away from him who is in want; rather, share all things with your brother, and do not say that they are your own. …” – The Didache  or the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations (Chapter 4)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

The Idea of “Alms/Mercy Shown” as “Fruit of Salvation” and not “Cause of Salvation” in “that Day” was discussed in link below (or more detail in Pages 562  of this book):

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161404426322784

1. ii) Post-Mortem Salvation

[Discussed in Pages 35 to 37 of book in link on Page 530 above at the start]

 

Some may be only Saved in the Spirit World Judgment now after the PAY the LAST PENNY

 

“… Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. WOE to HIM WHO RECEIVES; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who RECEIVES NOT having NEED shall PAY the PENALTY, why he received and for what. And coming into CONFINEMENT, he shall be EXAMINED concerning the THINGS which he HAS DONE, and he shall NOT ESCAPE from THERE until he PAYS back the LAST PENNY. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let YOUR ALMS sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give…” – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (1st Century, Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

How about the Apostles’ Ranking in Heaven?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161407106762784

 

Example Question

 

Were the Apostles Virgins?

 

Reply

 

The Apostles (lived like virgins) after they “left wife” as Apostle Peter himself said he “LEFT ALL” in Matthew 19:27 (and hence could “not” be in marriage relations anymore) as Christ Affirmed the LEFT WIFE part clearly in Matthew 19:29 (amongst even leaving LANDS, HOUSES, PARENTS, CHILDREN for GOSPEL WORK in some way) and are even higher than these 144000 as they get the “Twelve Thrones” (Matthew 19:28) and their names Written in the very Foundation of Heaven itself by GOD HIMSELF (Revelation 21:14). These Verses:

 

“…27Then PETER ANSWERED  and said to Him, “See, we have LEFT ALL and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” 28So JESUS SAID to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on TWELVE THRONES, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has LEFT HOUSES or BROTHERS or SISTERS or FATHER or MOTHER [h]or WIFE or CHILDREN or [i]LANDS, for My name’s sake, shall receive a HUNDREFOLD, and inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the LAST FIRST. …” (Matthew 19:27 – 30, NKJV)

 

Please notice carefully the word “HUNDREDFOLD” (in Matthew 19:29) above (in comparison to thirty of sixty fold which must be lesser leaving of these things as per Matthew 13:8) and in Matthew 19:30 above CHRIST Reveals the MYSTERY that this is how the FIRST (on earth) will be LAST (in ranking in heaven) while the LAST (on earth) may become FIRST (in ranking in Heaven) as the Context is Gradation (the word “Hundredfold“) with respect to the Context of “RENUNCIATION for the Gospel in some way only” (as CHRIST Didn’t Speak of any other acts in these Verses clearly) ‘as it is Written’.

 

“…Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the NAMES of the TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. …” (Revelation 21:14, NKJV)

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Charity Doctrine and Mercy link on Judgment Day

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161404426322784

 

In Verses below please notice carefully that Blessed Apostle St. Paul clearly speaks of “God’s Mercy” to be Granted on “that Day” referring to “Judgment Day Context” toward Blessed Onesiphorus for the sole reason that Blessed Onesiphorus Practiced the ‘CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE’ toward Apostle St. Paul himself by providing for his needs as evidenced clearly by these phrases “…FOR HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME,…” and “…and YOU KNOW VERY WELL HOW MANY WAYS HE MINISTERED [d]TO ME at Ephesus  …” below ‘as it is Written’:

 

“… 16The LORD GRANT MERCY to the HOUSEHOLD OF ONESIPHORUS, FOR HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME, and was not ashamed of my chain; … 18The LORD GRANT TO HIM that HE MAY FIND MERCY FROM THE LORD IN THAT DAY—and YOU KNOW VERY WELL HOW MANY WAYS HE MINISTERED [d]TO ME at Ephesus….” (2 Timothy 1:16, 18,  NKJV)

 

Comments:

 

1) The phrase “… IN THAT DAY …” = ‘Judgment Day’

 

2) The phrase “… HE MAY FIND MERCY FROM THE LORD IN THAT DAY …” = Obtaining Mercy on ‘Judgment Day’

 

3) The phrase “… and YOU KNOW VERY WELL HOW MANY WAYS HE MINISTERED [d]TO ME …” = Charity Doctrine Lifestyle lived by Blessed Onesiphorus toward Blessed Apostle St. Paul

 

 

4) The phrase “… 16The LORD GRANT MERCY to the HOUSEHOLD OF ONESIPHORUS …” = This Mercy on “that Day” Context (Judgment Day) may not just be limited to Blessed Onesiphorus but also toward “his household/family” simply because his contributions are from family income too who supported him and thus were considered giving to Blessed Apostle St. Paul.

 

5) The phrase “… FOR HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME, and was not ashamed of my chain …” = Blessed Onesiphorus provided for Blessed Apostle St. Paul by refreshing him via Providence of needs which is the CHARITY DOCTRINE as the REASON FOR MERCY TO BE GRANTED ON JUDGMENT DAY or “in that Day” CONTEXT as so clearly Written here.

 

6) If Blessed Onesiphorus was saved without the need of doing any Charity Doctrine (as most likely Blessed Onesiphorus was dead when this happened and that’s why Blessed Apostle St. Paul is Speaking of “Mercy to Blessed Onesiphorus may be Granted by God on THAT DAY referring to JUDGMENT DAY Context only” here as many scholars have noted too), then why is Blessed Apostle St. Paul clearly refering to “Mercy” to be “only shown for the sole reason” (as no other reason or religious acts of Blessed Onesiphorus is mentioned in Scripture here either be it praying/fasting or Church gathering etc. as these are accepted only in proportion of the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle Lived’ only first) as these Verses themselves clearly only “repeat twice” that the “reason for Mercy” to be Granted is ONLY THE CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE, to repeat this in highlight below:

 

1. i) First mention of the Charity Doctrine as the Reason for God’s Mercy to be Shown on “Judgment Day” (“in that Day” Context)

 

The phrase: “… FOR HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME …” (2 Timothy 1:16, NKJV)

 

1. ii) Second mention of the Charity Doctrine as the Reason for God’s Mercy to be Shown on “Judgment Day” (“in that Day” Context)

 

The phrase: “… and YOU KNOW VERY WELL HOW MANY WAYS HE MINISTERED [d]TO ME at Ephesus….” (2 Timothy 1:18, NKJV)

 

Note: you can check that all Bible translations read the ‘same meaning’ for these set of Verses in “Judgment Day” (“in that Day”) Context to be “shown Mercy” based on this “CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE first” in link below:

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/1-18.htm

 

Since Blessed Onesiphorus must be one of the 5 Wise Virgins with “oil” in Matthew 25:1 – 13, it’s most likely the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle as explained in an earlier Post in link below as First Christianity including Blessed Martin Luther the First Protestant has agreed too as the meaning of this Parable:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161389068392784/

 

7) If Blessed Onesiphorus was saved without the “fruit” (not cause) of the “Charity Doctrine Lifestyle”, why does Blessed Apostle St. Paul (the Real Inspired Author of Grace Alone) emphasising “only” that point repeatedly here in the context of “Mercy” shown on “Judgment Day” (“in that Day”) with nothing else mentioned regarding Blessed Onesiphorus as to whether his Eschatological understandings were perfect or whether he tithed, he prayed or fasted much, or spoke in tongues or cast out demons or prophesied or did miracles or attended church etc.?

 

Also, the Actual Judgment Day Description by Christ in Matthew 25:31 – 46 —> I have repeated many times in the Book and so I am “not” repeating it here but it clearly depicts the ‘Charity Doctrine only’ yet again agreeing in context perfectly. Indeed, the Judgment Day Verses (in Matthew 25:31 – 46) mentioning only “‘Charity Doctrine aspect of Almsgiving only”‘ (no prayer/fasting mentioned) as our Response to ‘… When I was Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless …’ may finally be Understood as ”Éxceeding the Righteousness of the Pharisees to Enter Heaven'” as these Verses collectively Reveal ”as it is Written”.

 

Why deny all these Bible Verses?

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

So ‘Charity Doctrine clearly affects “God’s Mercy” in the “Judgment Day Context” and since the Bible Verses must agree, the “Mercy which Triumphs over Judgment” (and ends it on ‘Judgment Day Context’ for if Judgment still remains then Mercy has ‘not’ Triumphed over it) must thus be toward those who have Practiced the ‘CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE’ , Verses:

 

“… 13For JUDGMENT IS WITHOUT MERCY to the ONE WHO HAS SHOWN NO MERCY. MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT. 14What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM? 15If a BROTHER OR SISTER IS NAKED AND DESTITUTE OF DAILY FOOD, 16and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do NOT GIVE THEM THE THINGS WHICH ARE NEEDED FOR THE BODY, WHAT DOES IT PROFIT? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does NOT HAVE WORKS, IS DEAD. …” (James 2:13 – 17, NKJV)

 

Comments:

 

1) Did you notice that MERCY ends JUDGMENT in Verses above is in the Context of Mercy referring to “Mercy which one has shown in life prior first based on the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE LIVED ONLY FIRST“?

 

2) The “only” Works of Faith which can end Judgment Day condemnation here are described as the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE ONLY as these phrases mean “… CAN FAITH SAVE HIM? 15If a BROTHER OR SISTER IS NAKED AND DESTITUTE OF DAILY FOOD, 16and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do NOT GIVE THEM THE THINGS WHICH ARE NEEDED FOR THE BODY, WHAT DOES IT PROFIT? …”.

 

3) Other Works of faith are possible be it praying, fasting, church attendance etc. but NOT WRITTEN here because until the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE IS PRACTICED FIRST, nothing else matters as Judgment is only Triumphed by “the Level of Mercy one lived in life prior first” as these Bible Verses (not my opinion clearly Teach here “as it is Written”).

 

 

4) This is “not” Salvation by Works but rather the “Fruit” of Salvation which will be evidenced in any person’s life whom “God Saves” and thus “Common Ground” toward all who are Saved by Mercy on Judgment Day via this Charity Doctrine Fruit also implies that this must be “the oil” the Wise Virgins had as First Christianity Taught likewise.

 

5) Apostle St. Paul won’t be asking for “Mercy” to be shown to Blessed Onesiphorus due to the latter’s “Charity Doctrine Lifestyle” unless it is “possible” based on this on “Judgment Day” and that’s why we consider the “possibility” that even Possibly some non-Christians may be shown this same Mercy if they were kind to Christians likewise by practicing the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle toward Christians too. So we can ask but let God Alone Decide in the end which makes no one a heretic here.

 

I didn’t hide any details which May point to another context when quoting 2 Timothy 1:16, 18 earlier as you can see in full in “Consecutive Verses” below too:

 

“…  12For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him UNTIL THAT DAY. 13HOLD FAST THE PATTERN OF SOUND WORDS which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14That GOOD THING WHICH WAS COMMITTED TO YOU, KEEP BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells in us. 15This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16The LORD GRANT MERCY to the HOUSEHOLD OF ONESIPHORUS, FOR HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18The LORD GRANT TO HIM THAT HE MAY FIND MERCY FROM THE LORD IN THAT DAY—and YOU KNOW VERY WELL HOW MANY WAYS HE MINISTERED [d]TO ME AT EPHESUS. …” (2 Timothy 1:12 – 18, NKJV)

 

Comment:

 

Verse 13 above Speaks clearly that the Sign of the Most Blessed HOLY SPIRIT of God is clearly to KEEP THESE SOUND WORDS which Includes (but not limited to) Verses 16  and 18 here which clearly Teach the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE as the FRUIT OF SALVATION for MERCY to be SHOWN ON JUDGEMENT DAY ( “in that Day”).

 

So any True Church of Christ which is led by the Most Blessed Holy Spirit of God should likewise “Keep by the Holy Spirit” these “Pattern of Sound Words” which in the First and Foremost Context they were Written here refers to this CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE for MERCY on JUDGMENT DAY instead of Verse 15 type of Judas-Christians who in comparison abandoned Apostle St. Paul by “not” doing this Charity Doctrine Lifestyle to him as Blessed Onesiphorus clearly did as the Bible is so clear on these meanings as “no” difficulties of translation or anything like that appears in these Verses “as it is Written”.

 

Please note that Verse 12 mentions ( “UNTIL that Day”) together with Verse 18 “THAT HE MAY FIND MERCY FROM THE LORD IN THAT DAY”  refers most likely to “Judgment Day” simply because ‘Christians are the “GREAT” on “Judgment Day” (while the saved non-Christians could  be “the SMALL” who are saved on this day while “THE DEAD” only are JUDGED who are “STANDING” indicating consciousness in their ‘Resurrection for Judgment Bodies’ which are the unsaved non-Christian ) in Verses below:

 

“… And I saw THE DEAD, SMALL and GREAT, STANDING BEFORE GOD, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And THE DEAD WERE JUDGED according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. …” (Revelation 20:12, NKJV)

So possibly,

 

1. The CHRISTIANS = THE GREAT here (as in front of God, an unsaved dead being called great seems unlikely, the BRIDE the LAMB’S WIFE Revelation 21:8 – 10, Overcomers Revelation 21:7, CELESTIAL/HEAVENLY GLORY Resurrection Bodies 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42, who come for REWARD and not JUDGMENT John 5:24 – 25, and SHINE Daniel 12:3)

 

1. The SMALL = Saved non-Christians (from the NATIONS who are SAVED Revelation 21:24 – 27 from the [New] EARTH with TERRESTRIAL/EARTHLY GLORY Resurrection Bodies 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42 who have DONE GOOD (‘FRUIT’ not cause of Salvation, John 5:28 – 29) for ETERNAL LIFE (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46) who may be THIRSTY ONES given the WATER OF LIFE FREELY (Revelation 21:6) as even THE BRIDE or CHRISTIANS CALL OUT TO THEM ON THAT DAY after JUDGMENT DAY in the NEW HEAVENLY JERUSALEM TIMELINE (in REVELATION 22:17 Mysteriously) where THIRSTY can also indicate BELIEVING AFTER SEEING (based on John 7:37 – 39) and John 6:36 – 40 especially JOHN 6:40 on the LAST DAY.

iii. The DEAD = Unsaved non-Christians (‘…  THE DEAD WERE JUDGED …’) into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8) who are only resurrected  for Judgment for doing evil (John 5:29)  hence EVERLASTING SHAME & PUNISHMENT in FIRE (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46).

 

 

 

 

Regardless, Charity Doctrine is Truly a Doctrine for the Church of Christ in the Context of Finding MERCY on JUDGMENT DAY as the FRUIT OF SALVATION according to 2 Timothy 1:18 itself.

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

Possibility for Hope for Some non-Christians in the Second Resurrection Discussion

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161404805337784

 

Question

 

Judgement Day is only for the >>Unsaved and Sinners and the Demon Seeds.

 

For the Righteous are Rapture 1,000 + years before the Great White Throne Judgement Days…

 

So if you found your Soul at the Great White Throne at the Judgement Day that meant you were Never Saved

 

For you did not receive your First Resurrection/Rapture when Jesus return ….

 

Reply

 

Firstly, Regardless of Eschatologies, the Mercy to be saved on “that Day” as Apostle St. Paul Writes is clearly based on Charity Doctrine in 2 Timothy 1:16 – 18 as was discussed in an earlier post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161404426322784/

 

 

 

As regards to Eschatology,

 

Some seemed to be saved only on Judgment Day as per details below:

 

 

1) The Surprised Sheep of the “nations/Gentiles” based on the “Charity Doctrine of what one did ‘… when I was Hungry, Thirsty, Naked, Homeless,…’ are clearly Saved on Judgment Day only (as described in Matthew 25:31 – 46)  which  occurs 1000 years after the First Resurrection and Rapture (Matthew 25:1 – 13).

 

Please take note that it’s highly unlikely that Matthew 25:1 – 13 and Matthew 25:31 – 46 Speaks of the “same timeline”.

 

Also, the Millennial Reign Jews which consists of “sinners” too on the earth at that time (e.g. Isaiah 65:20, KJV) are only saved on Judgment Day based on their works/”fruit” as Matthew 25:14 – 30 Describes.

 

So, it’s unlikely that all three passages in Matthew 25 namely Matthew 25:1 – 13, Matthew 25:14 – 30 and Matthew 25:31 – 46  Speak of only the Christian Salvation but rather may be indicating the 1000 years timeline as per the Chiliasm Doctrine in First Christianity which seems to match it best.

 

2) Revelation 21:24 – 27 mentions “nations who are saved” which only occurs post-judgment Day because Revelation 21:27 refers to this as “those whose names are in the Book of Life” referring to Revelation 20:11 – 15’s Judgment Day Timeline as Christians or “the Bride” are clearly mentioned to be different in Revelation 21:9 – 10 here.

 

3) Both John 5:28 – 29 and Daniel 12:2 seem to Speak of a righteous rising from the dead simultaneously with the wicked. If literal, this cannot refer to the Christian Resurrection because Christians only Rise alone according to Revelation 20:5 or Revelation 20:7 which implies that the Second Resurrection is 1000 years later and could have a second badge of righteous likewise.

 

In comparison, in these same chapters the Christian Salvation may have been Described in John 5 in John 5:24 – 25 without Judgment while in Daniel 12 as the “Wise who start to Shine like the Heavens with those who convert others to righteousness as the stars” at that time as Written in Daniel 12:3 instead.

 

Possibility here:

 

Daniel 12:2 = some non-Christians saved while some non-Christians condemned when they ‘rise simultaneously’ in the Second Resurrection

 

 

Daniel 12:3 = the Christians who are “Wise who start to Shine like the Heavens with those who convert others to righteousness as the stars” at that time during this Second Resurrection Timeline as they are already saved 1000 years earlier.

 

and likewise

 

John 5:24 – 25 = Christians who Rise at the “hour now is” (First hour of the Last Day without Judgment) to be part of the First Resurrection

 

 

John 5:28 – 29 = some non-Christians saved while some non-Christians condemned when they ‘rise simultaneously’ in the Second Resurrection at the “hour which is coming” on the ‘Last day’ (end of this day, separated by 1000 years).

 

 

 

 

If each word is to have a meaning, the phrase ” in “… the hour is coming, and now is,…” in the Verse “… the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. …” (John 5:25, NKJV) could refer to ‘those who live or saved‘ as:

 

1. i) ‘the hour now is’ (referring to the Last Day as it’s Resurrection Context) = START of the 1000 years Millennial Reign for the First Badge of Righteous = Christian Salvation

 

1. ii) i) ‘the hour is coming’ (referring to the Last Day as it’s Resurrection Context) = END of the 1000 years Millennial Reign into start of Judgment Day for second badge of righteous = non-Christian Salvation for some

 

The similar phrase “… the hour is coming, and now is,…” in John 4:23 in the Context of Worshipping God in “Spirit and Truth” may thus actually point to when we are Resurrected as these two badges of righteous only fully know the truth on ‘after their Resurrection’ as ‘no one knows everything fully from here as even Blessed Apostle St. Paul himself said he sees dimly only’ (in 1 Corinthians 13:12).

 

4) Some who are “thirsty” (thirsty most likely refers to not believing fully yet as per John 7:37 – 39 in comparison) are given the Water of Life only on Judgment Day as Revelation 21:6 Writes. It’s unlikely that Christians saved 1000 years earlier (as you claim too) are still thirsty for 1000 years as Christians thirst no more upon their Resurrection as implied clearly in the same John 7:37 – 39 itself.

 

Please note that the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which all Christians participate according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 18 in one Gathering of the Elect happens on  the “Old Earth and Heavens” which is 1000 years before Judgment Day (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7, Revelation 20:11 – 15).

 

In comparison, the ‘thirsty ones’ given the ‘water of life freely’ in Revelation 21:6 most likely cannot be the same ones who “overcome” as mentioned in Revelation 21:7 as the thirsty ones sounds like they are much lower whilst the one who “overcomes must have faith” in comparison of the word “Thirsty” which indicates lack of believing as per John 7:37 – 39 too and thus may not be the same group either.

In 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42, it’s clear that there are two types of Resurrection bodies mentioned in the Context of the Resurrection of the Dead (1 Corinthians 15:42) namely the “Celestial” (Heavenly) Vs the “Terrestrial” (Earthly) of which I conjecture that the  Celestial one refers to Christians only because only they become one flesh with Christ (as Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 Reveals) while the rest are only earthly bodies as Christ does “not” become One Flesh with them as it’s only towards His Bride.

 

Please also notice very carefully in 1 Corinthians 15:40 that two types of “Glory” are mentioned for the final Resurrection Bodies namely “but the GLORY of the CELESTIAL is one,” Vs ” and the GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another.” (in 1 Corinthians 15:40).

 

Now the word “Glory” in “… GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another …” (mentioned clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:40) in this Context of “Resurrection of the Dead” (1 Corinthians 15:42)  itself indicates that some of the of the TERRESTRIAL RESURRECTION BODIES are also “Saved” for it doesn’t seem logical for a body raised with “glory” to be “unsaved“. To say that this “Terrestrial Glory” ones refers to some lower Christians contradicts Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32 which describes Christ Sharing One Flesh with all Christians in some way and so they must be “CELESTIAL (Heavenly) RESURRECTION GLORY Bodies only“.

 

Also, in this Same Chapter the word “we” in “…  WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE of the HEAVENLY MAN. …” (1 Corinthians 15:49) refers only to “Christians”  who are called here as “Heavenly Man” meaning “CELESTIAL (Heavenly) RESURRECTION GLORY Bodies only” again so if some Christians have only “… GLORY of the TERRESTRIAL is another …” (1 Corinthians 15:40) type of Resurrection Body (1 Corinthians 15:42), it’s a clear contradiction.

 

Also the phrase here in 1 Corinthians 15:42 comparing these two types of Glory of Celestial (Heavenly) Vs Terrestrial (Earthly) as “another” clearly implies that these are speaking of two classes of Resurrection Bodies distinctly where the word “Glory” indicates these are among the “saved” most likely.

 

 

 

The Bible Verses in Revelation 21:24 – 27 also matches where they are called “NATIONS WHO ARE SAVED who have KINGS OF THE EARTH” (where the word “earth” refers to “Terrestrial” clearly in Revelation 21:24 – 27) and they visit the “Bride” (Heavenly/Celestial Christians, Revelation 21:9 – 10) through the Gates of that Heavenly Jerusalem which occurs clearly after Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 – 15) when the Book of Life is Revealed (Revelation 21:27) which seem to point to these two “saved” groups as different.

 

Also Revelation 22:17 is the strongest evidence that these “thirsty ones” who are given the ‘Water of life freely’ at that time which is after Judgment Day as it’s only on the New Earth and Heavens (Revelation 21:1)  most likely cannot be Christians simply because “the Bride” (or Christians themselves) are calling toward them to take the Water of Life freely in Revelation 22:17  literally.

 

I could be wrong but reading these Verses literally seem to point this as a “possibility” and when God Reveals it One Day I accept it either way.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

A Rare Faith among Men – Mystery of Faith of Eunuchs in the Kingdom of Heaven

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161415395902784

 

1) Why is this important?

 

Perhaps (if not us), someone might be called to live such a life of faith for Christ whose faith is “not” normal but Described Mysteriously in Verses below that it’s even Greater than that of the usual “sons and daughters”, Verses (which are Written in the ‘Context of Final Salvation‘ and ‘God’s Righteousness to be Revealed’):

 

 

“…  1Thus SAYS THE LORD:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,

For MY SALVATION IS ABOUT TO COME,

And My RIGHTEOUSNESS TO BE REVEALED.

2Blessed is the man who does this,

And the son of man who lays hold on it;

Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

3Do not let the son of the foreigner

Who has joined himself to the Lord

Speak, saying,

“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;

NOR LET THE EUNUCH SAY,

“Here I am, a dry tree.”4For THUS SAYS THE LORD:

“TO THE EUNUCHS who keep my sabbaths,

And CHOOSE WHAT PLEASES ME,

And hold fast My covenant,

5Even to them I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE

And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE AND A NAME

BETTER THAN THAT OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS;

I will give [a]them AN EVERLASTING NAME

That SHALL NOT BE CUT OFF. …” (Isaiah 56:4 – 5, NKJV)

 

 

Comments:

 

0) Context: The Promises in these particular Set of Verses is “not” for every believer at that time even but only toward “EUNUCHS” (i.e. those who have Renounced Marriage for God in some way to Serve Him or some via Castrations) as God Himself Sets this Context in the Opening Lines here as “… 4For thus says the Lord: TO THE EUNUCHS  …”

 

1. The phrase “… BETTER THAN THAT OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS; …” seems to point to a really great inheritance in the Kingdom beyond the usual “sons and daughters of God (implied)”.

 

2. The phrase “… I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE …” = Seem to Point to a “special Level of Heavenly Inheritance” above the usual one given to other saved “… SONS AND DAUGHTERS; …”

 

3. The phrase “… I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE And WITHIN MY WALLS … And A NAME …” = Seem to Point to a “special Level of Title/Rank” above the usual one given to other saved “… SONS AND DAUGHTERS; …”

 

4. The phrase “… I will give [a]them AN EVERLASTING NAME That SHALL NOT BE CUT OFF. …” means their above than usual Reward and Name in His Kingdom than the usual “… Sons and daughters …” is “not” a temporary reward nor a temporary “NAME GIVEN BY GOD” but a permanent and “EVERLASTING” one.

 

 

 

5. These Hidden Mysteries may have been known in the “Priestly” Context too in the Old Covenant itself even before these Verses in Isaiah were Written as per Verses below “in Principle” (or even “allegorically“):

 

“… And the PRIEST ANSWERED David and said, “There is NO COMMON BREAD on hand; but there is HOLY BREAD, if the young men have AT LEAST KEPT THEMSELVES FROM WOMEN.” …” (1 Samuel 21:4, NKJV)

 

2) Perhaps this has been echoed in this “Wisdom of Solomon” book likewise as God Quotes the Context of “… I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE …” (in Isaiah 56:5) as follows:

 

“… [14] And BLESSED IS THE EUNUCH, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for UNTO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN THE SPECIAL GIFT OF FAITH, and an INHERITANCE IN THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD more acceptable to his mind. …” (Wisdom of Solomon 3:14, KJV)

 

Source:

 

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

Another related Quote:

 

“… [1] BETTER IT IS TO HAVE NO CHILDREN, AND TO HAVE VIRTUE: for the MEMORIAL THEREOF IS IMMORTAL: because it is known with God, and with men. [2] When it is present, men take example at it; and when it is gone, they desire it: it weareth a crown, and triumpheth for ever, having gotten the victory, STRIVING FOR UNDEFILED REWARDS. ….” (Wisdom of Solomon 4:1 – 2, KJV)

 

Source:

 

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/wisdom.html

 

 

3) Does it apply in the New Covenant?

 

This applied in the “Old Covenant” and similarly may be echoed in Principle in the New Covenant too (“not” according to the abolished parts of course but in obedience to the New Testament Verses) as Christ Himself may have Pointed to such a case in Verses below:

 

 

“… For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. He who is ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:12, NKJV)

 

 

4) Is that the Reason why Blessed Apostle St. Paul himself echoed that “… He WISHED ALL MEN were LIKE THAT? …” Verses (for if there was “no” difference in a Heavenly or Spiritual Perspective, he may not have wished it):

 

 

“…  7For I WISH THAT ALL MEN WERE EVEN as I MYSELF. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8But I say to the UNMARRIED AND TO THE WIDOWS: IT IS GOOD FOR THEM IF THEY REMAIN EVEN AS I AM; 9but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. … 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have TROUBLE IN THE FLESH, but I WOULD SPARE YOU. … 32But I want you to be without care. He who is UNMARRIED CARES FOR THE THINGS OF THE LORD—how he may PLEASE THE LORD. 33But HE WHO IS MARRIED CARES about the THINGS OF THE WORLD—how he may PLEASE HIS WIFE. … 38So then he who GIVES HER IN MARRIAGE DOES WELL, but he WHO DOES NOT GIVE HER IN MARRIAGE DOES BETTER. …” (1 Corinthians 7:7 – 9, 28, 32 – 33, 38, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

5) The “Firstfruits” of Salvation (Holiest lot) itself belongs to a particular 144000 “unmarried Jewish Virgin Men” likewise proving this Context for such “Eunuchs” too:

 

“… 1Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and WITH HIM ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, [b]having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. … . 3They SANG AS IT WERE A NEW SONG before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and NO ONE COULD LEARN THAT SONG except the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND who were redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones WHO WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN, FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are the ones WHO FOLLOW THE LAMB WHEREVER HE GOES. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb …” (Revelation 14:1, 3 – 4, NKJV)

 

6) The “Septuagint” reads the “same” meaning this Scripture is 100% True and Preserved

 

“… 4Thus SAITH THE LORD TO THE EUNUCHS, as many as shall keep my sabbaths, and CHOOSE THE THINGS WHICH I TAKE PLEASURE IN, and take hold of my covenant; 5I will GIVE TO THEM IN MY HOUSE and WITHIN MY WALLS AN HONOURABLE PLACE, BETTER THAN SONS AND DAUGHTERS: I will give them AN EVERLASTING NAME, and IT SHALL NOT FAIL. …” (Isaiah 56:4 – 5, Brenton Septuagint Translation)

Source: https://biblehub.com/sep/isaiah/56.htm

 

7) Example First Christianity Quotes

 

“… Now any one may object to this interpretation, and may give another which harmonizes with the rule of faith. For as the ark was to have rooms not only on the lower, but also on the upper storeys, which were called ” third storeys,” that there might be a habitable space on the third floor from the basement, some one may interpret these to mean the three graces commended by the apostle, — ^faith, hope, and charity. Or even more suitably they may be supposed to represent those THREE HARVESTS IN THE GOSPEL, THIRTYFOLD, SIXTYFOLD, AN HUNDREDFOLD, — CHASTE MARRIAGE DWELLING IN THE GROUND FLOOR, CHASTE WIDOWHOOD IN THE UPPER, AND CHASTE VIRGINITY IN THE TOP STOREY. Or any better interpretation may be given, so long as the reference to this city is maintained…” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Book XV, ‘City of God’, Page 99)

Source: https://archive.org/stream/cityofgodvolumet009439mbp/cityofgodvolumet009439mbp_djvu.txt

Or

 

“… For there are TWO WAYS IN LIFE, as touching these matters. The one the more moderate and ordinary, I mean MARRIAGE; THE OTHER ANGELIC AND UNSURPASSED, NAMELY VIRGINITY. Now if a man choose the way of the world, namely marriage, he is not indeed to blame; yet HE WILL NOT RECEIVE SUCH GREAT GIFTS AS THE OTHER. For he will receive, since he too BRINGS FORTH FRUIT, NAMELY THIRTYFOLD. But if a man embrace the holy and unearthly way, even though, as compared with the former, it be rugged and hard to accomplish, yet it has the more wonderful gifts: for IT GROWS THE PERFECT FRUIT, NAMELY AN HUNDREDFOLD…”  – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, Letter XLVIII.—Letter to Amun4583. Written before 354 AD via Philip Schaff, Pages 971 – 972)

 

Source:

 

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/1819-1893,_Schaff._Philip,_3_Vol_04_Athanasius,_EN.pdf

 

Or

 

“… And again THE LORD SAYS: Let the one who has married not be cast out, and let the one who HAS NOT MARRIED NOT MARRY. He who has confessed that he will NOT MARRY ACCORDING to HIS DECISION OF EUNUCHHOOD, LET HIM REMAIN UNMARRIED….” – Blessed St. Clement of Alexandria, Head of the Cathecathical School At Alexandria (c. 150 AD – c. 215 AD, Miscellanies 3.15)

 

Source for the “Agrapha ” Quote above (Agrapha Quote refers to ‘not’ in Bible Quote but attributed to Christ especially via Church Fathers):

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20080215124232/http://www.textexcavation.com/agrapha.html

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

If such a unique Reward occurred for those Eunuchs of the Old Testament, Christ Reassuring that there are Eunuchs likewise for the “Kingdom of Heaven” in the New Covenant allows such a “Reward in His Kingdom’s Inheritance” to be likewise applied to those who live by this Gift of Faith by God toward them.

 

I just find these Verses fascinating indeed and am intrigued much by it.

 

Please notice that Christ Himself Warned that “not” all are able to accept this Truth regarding “Eunuchs for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN” but it’s True regardless because He Himself Said it below, I repeat:

 

“… [11But He said to them], “ALL CANNOT ACCEPT THIS SAYING, but ONLY THOSE TO WHOM IT HAS BEEN GIVEN: 12For there are [c]eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. HE WHO IS ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:11 – 12, NKJV)

 

The “Definition of Eunuch” as Christ Himself Uses the Koine Greek Word above may be seen in the Bible Dictionary below which includes the “being Unmarried Context” too as a type of it, to quote:

 

“… Definition: a eunuch

Usage: (a) a chamberlain, keeper of the bed-chamber of an eastern potentate, eunuch, (b) a eunuch, castrated person, or ONE WHO VOLUNTARILY ABSTAINS FROM MARRIAGE. …”

 

Source:

 

https://biblehub.com/greek/2135.htm

 

So even if we couldn’t accept it, we need to Preach it for someone who could be “GIVEN” to “ACCEPT THIS Mysterious DOCTRINE for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE” as Christ Teaches above.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Mystery of Our own righteousness vs God’s Righteousness with Emphasis on the Life of Blessed Charles Spurgeon the Prince of Preachers

 

Bible Verses:

 

“… 2For I bear them witness that they have a ZEAL FOR GOD, but NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE. 3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. …” (Romans 10:2 – 3, NKJV)

 

 

Context/Meaning:

 

1) Salvation is only by Christ’s Righteousness and by Believing in Him.

 

2) The “your righteousness” Christ Spoke of in Matthew 5:19 – 20 determines ‘your reward level in the Kingdom of Heaven (for those saved)’ as it depends on “Obeying God’s Commands”.

 

3) In principle of Romans 10:2 which states “…  zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. …” if applied to “your righteousness” for ‘reward level in Heaven not Salvation’ (Matthew 5:19 – 20), then those faith that “… deny Written Commands …” may be doing “… their own righteousness instead of submitting to God’s Righteousness …” as some New Testament Verses have warned regarding “being crowned” (as finishing the race of faith itself doesn’t necessarily mean being “crowned”) unless one runs according to the “RULES specified in WRITTEN SCRIPTURE” as per Verses below:

 

 

 

1. i) No ‘Race of Faith’ is “Crowned” unless it’s “according to the Rules” or if they Teach against Scripture, it’s to the “… RUIN OF THE HEARERS. …” and the Context here is “God’s Commands in Action” (not ‘eschasthalogy’ or anything else), Verses:

 

“… 5And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is NOT CROWNED unless he COMPETES ACCORDING to THE RULES. … 14REMIND them of THESE THINGS, charging them before the Lord not to [d]strive about words to no profit, to the RUIN OF THE HEARERS. … ” (2 Timothy 2:5, 14, NKJV)

 

1. ii) There is “no” Race of Faith based on ‘obeying or doing things beyond what is Written only’ in New Testament Scripture:

 

“… that you may learn in us NOT TO THINK BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. … 14I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16Therefore I URGE YOU, IMITATE ME. 17For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH. …” (1 Corinthians 4:4, 14 – 17, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

 

Examples:

 

1) Fearing God

 

Those who “Fear God” will do two things namely, “Give Alms” (Charity Doctrine) + “Pray Always”, Verses:

 

“… 1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]Regiment, 2a DEVOUT MAN and ONE WHO FEARED GOD with all his household, who GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY to the people, and PRAYED TO GOD ALWAYS  …” (Acts 10:1 – 2, NKJV)

 

Comment: A True “Fear God Doctrine” will likewise Teach both aspects above namely:

 

1. GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY (Charity Doctrine Lifestyle)
2. PRAYED TO GOD ALWAYS

 

Nothing else is mentioned in these Verses meaning these are the “First Definitions” of “Fearing God” which the “Bible has approved its Meaning as it is Written“.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Disobedience

 

Inability to Obey (“Keep” His Words or Keep “His Sayings”) may cause “Many” to be “Denied” from the “First Resurrection” as it’s LAWLESSNESS despite “Converting that same Many based on Casting out Demons, Prophesying and Miracles in His Name“, Verses:

 

“… 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22MANY will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’ 24“Therefore WHOEVER HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN WHO BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” (Matthew 7:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

3) Holy Spirit

 

The Sign of the Most Blessed Holy Spirit is “how much of His Commands we can keep” and ‘not’ everyone has the ‘other Gifts’ where the Greatest Gift is “Love” (Agape in Action), Verses:

 

“… 27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are ALL WORKERS OF MIRACLES? 30DO ALL HAVE GIFTS OF HEALINGS? DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the [i]best gifts. And YET I SHOW YOU A MORE EXCELLENT WAY*. …” (1 Corinthians 12:27 – 30, NKJV)

 

*of “Agape” (Love of God) as 1 Corinthians 13 Revealed next to Verses above while in Verses below it’s the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’:

 

 

“… 16By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN. 17But WHOEVER HAS THIS WORLD’S GOODS, and SEES HIS BROTHER IN NEED, AND SHUTS UP HIS HEART FROM HIM, HOW DOES THE LOVE OF GOD ABIDE IN HIM? 18My little children, let us NOT LOVE IN WORD or IN TONGUE, BUT IN DEED AND IN TRUTH …” (1 John 3:10 – 18, NKJV)

 

“… 13HOLD FAST The PATTERN OF SOUND WORDS which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14That good thing which was committed to you, KEEP BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells in us. …” (2 Timothy 1:13 – 14, NKJV)

 

Comment: If ‘Casting out Demons, Miracles, Prophecies’ were keeping His Commandments, then it “contradicts” 1 Corinthians 12:27 – 30 above which states that these “Gifts” (though Good) but are “not” for all believers (meaning it cannot be the Commandments meant for every believer).

 

 

Comment: If some claim some new ways against ‘Written Scripture Rules’, “no” need to be harsh in condemning them either because we are “not” sure if God Showed them a ‘new way‘ and so better not to judge (Matthew 7:1 – 2).

 

But we remind them also “not” to force “nor” disturb us to “accept their new ways” simply because the “First Way of Scripture by obeying these Quotes New Testament Verses is already approved by God 100% and has ZERO CONDEMNATION if we obey it”, examples:

 

1. ‘women pastors presiding over their men’ against 1 Timothy 2:12

 

“… 10but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12And I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMAN TO TEACH OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE. …” (1 Timothy 2:10 – 12, NKJV)

 

 

or No silence of women in their congregations against 1 Corinthians 14:34

 

“… 34WOMEN  SHOULD REMAIN SILENT IN THE CHURCHES. They are NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK, but must be in SUBMISSION, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is DISGRACEFUL FOR A WOMAN TO SPEAK IN THE CHURCH. 36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a PROPHET or otherwise GIFTED BY THE SPIRIT, let them ACKNOWLEDGE that what I am WRITING to you is the LORD’S COMMAND. 38But IF ANYONE IGNORES THIS, THEY WILL THEMSELVES BE IGNORED …” (1 Corinthians 14:34 – 38, NIV)

 

Comment: These I have discussed in Pages 440 to 466 in this Book quoting the best Protestants including Blessed Martin Luther (the First Protestant),  Blessed John Calving (Founder of 5-Point Calvinism/Tulips Doctrine), Blessed John Wesley (Founder of Methodism) and even Blessed Charles Spurgeon (Prince of Preachers).

 

Please allow me to quote “Blessed Charles Spurgeon” alone here for a short example quote here (more quotes are in those pages mentioned):

 

“… But this commitment also meant that in areas where Scripture was clear, Spurgeon dared not trespass, no matter where his enlightened culture was going. In his sermon, “The Head of the Church,” Spurgeon declared,

 

When we meet together in church-meeting we cannot make laws for the Lord’s kingdom; we dare not attempt it. Such necessary regulations as may be made for carrying out our Lord’s commands, to meet for worship, and to proclaim the gospel, are commendable, because they are acts needful to obedience to his highest laws; but even these minor details are not tolerable if they clearly violate the spirit and mind of Jesus Christ. . . . Law-making in the church was finished in that day when the curse was pronounced on him who should take from or add to the word of God. Christ alone is the legislator of his church—none but he . . . has left to us his Statute-book, sufficient to guide us in every dilemma. …

 

or

 

Spurgeon believed that the preaching of the Word in the gathering of the church was restricted to men, along with the office of elders and deacons. At the same time, his predominant emphasis was on calling women to engage in ministry in all the other ways that were available to them.

 

When it came to the gathering of the church, Spurgeon believed that, according to Scripture, women were not to preach. Preaching on Matthew 8:14, 15, “First Healing and the Service,” Spurgeon commends the example of Peter’s mother-in-law:

 

But notice that what this good woman did was very appropriate. Peter’s wife’s mother did not get out of bed and go down the street and deliver an address to an assembled multitude. Women are best when they are quiet. I share the apostle Paul’s feelings when he bade women be silent in the assembly. Yet there is work for holy women, and we read of Peter’s wife’s mother that she arose and ministered to Christ. She did what she could and what she should. She arose and ministered to him. Some people can do nothing that they are allowed to do, but waste their energies in lamenting that they are not called on to do other people’s work. Blessed are they who do what they should do. It is better to be a good housewife, or nurse, or domestic servant, than to be a powerless preacher or a graceless talker. …”

 

Source (via Mr. Alex DiPrima is the Senior Pastor of Emmanuel Church in Winston Salem, NC. He holds a PhD from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in historical theology with an emphasis in the ministry of Charles Spurgeon & Mr. Geoff Chang serves as an assistant professor of church history and historical theology and is also the curator of the Spurgeon Library at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary):

 

https://www.9marks.org/article/charles-spurgeon-womens-ministry-and-female-preachers/

 

 

Why?

 

Because despite teaching all these ‘strict Doctrine’, historical records Testify that Blessed Charles Spurgeon was used to do Miracles by God more than others and SO THEIR CLAIMS of HAVING SOME SPECIAL GIFTS only if WE DENY THESE BIBLE VERSES IS BASELESS (and hence the title ‘Prince of Preachers’ was conferred to him on account of his most widespread influence till today in Protestantism too), to quote:

 

1. a) Charles Spurgeon may have been used by GOD to HEAL MORE PEOPLE in MIRACLES despite all these ‘STRICT DOCTRINES he Preached and Believed’, to quote:

 

“… “Yet, NO MAN PROBABLY, IN ENGLAND or in AMERICA, IN THIS CENTURY, HAS EVER HEALED SO MANY PEOPLE as did MR. SPURGEON, although he was not himself a physician and never wrote prescriptions. He felt that there was UNEXPLAINABLE MYSTERY ABOUT THE WHOLE MATTER. Yet, he asserted that there was SOME POWER CONNECTED WITH PRAYER which ought to be used when persons were in pain and could be relieved by it.” from “The Life of Charles Haddon Spurgeon” by Russell H. Conwell. …”

 

Source (with more details):  https://www.healingandrevival.com/BioCHSpurgeon.htm

 

1. b) Charles Spurgeon Taught that ANY CHRISTIAN can Baptize not just particular chuches/pastors/denominations:

 

“… Oh, I would that the church could hear the Savior addressing these words to her now, for the words of Christ are living words, not having power in them yesterday alone, but today also. The injunctions of the Savior are perpetual in their obligation, they were not binding upon merely apostles, but upon us also, and upon EVERY CHRISTIAN does this yoke fall, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING THEM in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”  …” – Blessed Charles Spurgeon (Prince of Preachers, On April 21, 1861, Charles Spurgeon delivered a sermon titled “The Missionaries’ Charge and Charter” (#383) addressing the core of the missionary task.)

 

Source:

https://www.abwe.org/blog/charles-spurgeon-how-fulfill-great-commission-troubled-times

 

1. c) Charles Spurgeon was “never” officially a “an ordained pastor nor priest” for any denomination

 

“… Baptists had a long tradition of ordaining ministers, for example, but Spurgeon managed to get his church to omit this step—he never was ordained. He campaigned arduously to do without the customary title, Reverend, and he eventually succeeded in replacing it with Pastor. …”

 

Source: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-29/what-did-spurgeon-believe.html

 

1. d) Charles Spurgeon is the No.1 most influential Christian History apart from Bible ones

 

“… Charles Haddon Spurgeon is history’s most widely read preacher (apart from the biblical ones). Today, there is available more material written by Spurgeon than by any other Christian author, living or dead. …”

 

Source: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-29/charles-h-spurgeon-did-you-know.html

 

1. e) Charles Spurgeon didn’t believe in Speaking in Tongues nor in Progressive Revelations

 

Charles Spurgeon is a little harsh in his words toward those who speak in tongues but we need “not” judge either way (just using this to prove that true Men of God didn’t endorse it at all too throughout the Protestant Reformation), example in link below:

 

“… “I have heard many fanatical persons say the Holy Spirit revealed this and that to them. Now that is very generally revealed nonsense. The Holy Ghost does not reveal anything fresh now. He brings old things to our remembrance. “He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have told you.” The canon of revelation is closed; there is no more to be added. God does not give a fresh revelation, but he rivets the old one. When it has been forgotten, and laid in the dusty chamber of our memory, he fetches it out and cleans the picture, but does not paint a new one. There are no new doctrines, but the old ones are often revived. It is not, I say, by any new revelation that the Spirit comforts. He does so by telling us old things over again; he brings a fresh lamp to manifest the treasures hidden in Scripture; he unlocks the strong chests in which the truth had long lain, and he points to secret chambers filled with untold riches; but he coins no more, for enough is done. Believer! there is enough in the Bible for thee to live upon for ever.” …” – Blessed Charles Spurgeon (Prince of Preachers)

 

Source (official Spurgeon Pages):

 

https://hearspurgeon.com/5-2

 

or

 

https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/the-comforter/

 

We can be neutral and not support either Christianity in this Context if we are not sure as discussed in detail in post below to be ‘safe’ and ‘not accidentally speak any Blasphemy to the Holy Spirit’ either way:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10160853112937784

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

iii. Post Tribulation  Rapture

 

Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther, John  Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, William Tyndale, John Wesley and others all taught “post-tribulation rapture only likewise” link:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10160859868082784

or

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10160859818692784

 

 

I have discussed the quotes from these ‘same Protestant Founders’ in Pages 224 to 230 (from free pdf Book titled’ Christian Perfection’) below quoting in detail these “Post-Tribulation Rapture” quotes by these greats in those pages:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QUjb1K0SLoxJ6E3Zo5oWY0_RH8FCPloP/view?usp=sharing

 

Also, Logic: Please read both sides before deciding your belief/faith accordingly for reward if right One Day by God as per post in link below:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161407047987784

 

Background: In the Thesis below (on Pages 83/72 till Pages 96/85), the author seems to propose some type of “Pre-Tribulation/Mid-Tribulation Rapture” theory by quoting some early Christian Writings which we have quoted too (and you may ‘compare both and decide for yourselves which is right’):

 

https://digitalshowcase.oru.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cotm_pub

 

Note: The other parts of the Thesis is irrelevant as if these earliest writings (especially St. Irenaeous’ Teach differently), what are the chances that others are going to be right? Safe Route: I follows St. Irenaeous’ in this too as usual.

 

If really keen, please read around Page 500 in free book in link below where I discuss these other quotes likewise as well (and you can compare both sides):

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kz5fi19txCkQOdmPX5bJ0UwNWV6ZhgVR/view?usp=sharing

 

 

1. Absence of the Charity Doctrine

 

Some Christians have ‘no Charity Doctrine to fulfill the Justice and Love of God part against Luke 11:39 – 42’s Christ Exhortation to do so as He Commanded “…These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone …” which I have discussed throughout these quoted books in links even with Bible Verses.

 

Here is Blessed Charles Spurgeon (the ‘Prince of Preachers’ himself whom we quoted in “point ii earlier”) in “Action” regarding this “Charity Doctrine”, to quote:

 

“… In 1876, 22 years after becoming pastor, Spurgeon published “The Metropolitan Tabernacle: Its History and Work”.[18] His intention stated in the preface is to give a ‘printed history of the Tabernacle’.The book has 15 chapters and of these 5 are given over to what he called ‘Societies and Institutions’.

 

Metropolitan Tabernacle Almshouse

The Five Chapters are:

 

1. The Almshouses. Explaining how the New Park Street Chapel site was sold to allow the Tabernacle to build an Almshouse and school.

 

 

Stockwell_Orphanage_1876

xiii. The Stockwell Orphanage. This opened for 240 boys in 1867 (and later for girls in 1879). These orphanages continued in London until they were bombed in the Second World War. The inspiration for starting an orphanage came from a visit with George Muller.[19][20][21] The orphanage changed its name to Spurgeon’s Child Care in 1937,[22] and again in 2005 to Spurgeons.[23][24] Spurgeon was linked more with the Stockwell orphanage than any other Metropolitan Tabernacle endeavour. There are probably four reasons for this:

 

1. It was a large set of buildings in London occupying four acres. 2. There was an annual fundraiser at which Spurgeon chose to celebrate his birthday,[25] and often the laying of a foundation stone.[26] The event was called ‘one of the largest bazaars and fancy fairs ever held in South London’[27] – in one day 1,000 was raised [28] – a lot considering entry was sixpence.[29] Spurgeon accepted money gifts for his birthday, which all went to the orphanage.[30] 3. The Orphanage choir and bell ringers performed concerts to fundraise [31] 4. It had such a large operating budget compared with other Tabernacle activities.

 

xiiv. The Colportage Association. Colporters were employed to take Bibles, good books and periodicals for sale, from house to house. They also were involved in visiting the sick and holding meetings.

 

105. Other Institutions Connected with the Tabernacle. Here Spurgeon describes 21 other ‘Institutions’. Two examples are: The Ordinance Poor Fund which distributed money amongst poor members of the church of about £800 annually, and the Ladies’ Benevolent Society. This group made clothing for the poor and ‘relieved’ them, with an income of £105.

 

Eight years later at Spurgeon’s fiftieth birthday celebration an updated list of ‘Societies and Institutions’ was read out.[32] With Spurgeon’s strong encouragement and support the 24 groups listed in ‘The Metropolitan Tabernacle: Its History and Work’, had become 69. Before they are read out Spurgeon says: “I think everybody should know what the church has been moved to do, and I beg to say that there are other societies besides those which will be mentioned, but you will be tired before you get to the end of them.” and finishes after the list by saying: “We have need to praise God that he enables the church to carry on all these institutions.”

 

…

 

Spurgeon had one Infirmary built, at the Stockwell Orphanage. However, he also recognised that the poor had limited access to health care and so was also an enthusiastic supporter of the Metropolitan Hospital Sunday Fund. He left us this quote:[35]

 

 

The Stockwell Orphanage Infirmary

 

We must have more hospitals. I do not know whether we shall not be obliged to make the Government spend something in this direction. I don’t believe in the Government doing anything well. I generally feel sorry when anything has to be left to the Government. I don’t mean this Government in particular, but any Government which may be in office for the time being. It is six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. I have a very small opinion of the whole lot. There are some things which we should try ourselves to do as long as ever we can; but if we are driven up a corner, it may come to what I fear. Bones must be set, and the sick must be cared for; the poor must not be left to die, in order not to have to go to the Government for help. So let us all try to give what we can. It is your duty to give, not merely as Christians, but as men. I like the Hospital Sunday movement, for all Christian people can meet, as we are met here to-night, on one platform.

 

…”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon

 

 

4) Written Commandments

 

Any walk of being “Closer to God” involves more of “His Commands” as the Sign of “His Love” (and so the reverse may be true in that the ‘inability to keep the “Written” Commands of the Lord, e.g. 1 Corinthians 14:37 may be dangerous or lacks love back toward God, Let God Decide), Verses:

 

“… IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP [Obey] MY COMMANDMENTS. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:15, NKJV)

 

“… 23JESUS ANSWERED and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will KEEP MY WORD; and MY FATHER WILL LOVE HIM, and WE WILL COME TO HIM and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM. 24He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. …” (John 14:23 – 24, NKJV)

 

“… 19Whoever therefore BREAKS one of the LEAST of THESE COMMANDMENTS, and TEACHES men so, shall be called LEAST in the kingdom of HEAVEN; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES them, he shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of HEAVEN. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19, NKJV)

 

“… 46“But WHY DO YOU CALL ME ‘LORD, LORD,’ and NOT DO THE THINGS WHICH I SAY? 47Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:46 – 48, NKJV)

 

“… 18And JESUS CAME AND SPOKE TO THEM, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. …” (Matthew 28:18 – 20, NKJV)

 

“… 13MAKING THE WORD OF GOD OF NO EFFECT THROUGH YOUR TRADITION which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:13, NKJV)

 

Not all Disobedience to the “Written Word” Leads to “Denial” as ‘there is a sin NOT leading to Death’ (which is difficult to expound because the “Written” Bible Verses didn’t expound further) and so let’s just Warn people based on Verses above and ‘Let God Alone do the Judging part’, Verses:

 

“… 16If anyone SEES HIS BROTHER SINNING A SIN WHICH DOES NOT LEAD TO DEATH, HE WILL ASK, and HE WILL GIVE HIM LIFE FOR THOSE WHO COMMIT SIN NOT LEADING TO DEATH. THERE IS SIN LEADING TO DEATH. I do NOT say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and THERE IS SIN NOT LEADING TO DEATH. …” (1 John 5:16 – 17, NKJV)

 

Your Job is Done after ‘Preaching the Bible Verses’ for “His Commands” part:

 

“… When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and YOU DO NOT SPEAK TO WARN THE WICKED FROM HIS WAY, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND. Nevertheless IF YOU WARN the WICKED to TURN FROM HIS WAY, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but YOU HAVE DELIVERED YOUR SOUL. …” (Ezekiel 33:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Antichrist’s Deception will “not” be in smart-words but SIGNS and WONDERS and against NEW TESTAMENT TRADITIONS

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161428100167784

 

Bible Verses:

 

“… 7For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is ACCORDING TO THE WORKING OF SATAN, WITH ALL POWER, SIGNS, AND LYING WONDERS, 10and WITH ALL UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this reason God will send them STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE, 12that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. …” (2 Thessalonians 2:7 – 12, NKJV)

 

1. What are the Methods the “Antichrist” (the “son of Lawlessness”) use to deceive?

 

“… ACCORDING TO THE WORKING OF SATAN, WITH ALL POWER, SIGNS, AND LYING WONDERS,  …”

 

2. Will the Antichrist Preach ‘holiness or good works or righteousness’ to deceive? It doesn’t seem so as he will use “unrighteousness”:

 

“… 10and WITH ALL UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION …”

 

3. This Final Antichrist Time and Deception is called the “STRONG DELUSION THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE, ” and those who fall for it “… had PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. …” either secretly or publicly.

 

 

4. The Book of Revelation even shows that during the last 42 months (3.5 years) of his reign, the “Beast” (Antichrist) will even seem like to have “Risen from the dead” (though he didn’t really die) deceiving many where the “saints” will lose to him being persecuted and killed for their faith (Verses):

 

“… The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as if it HAD BEEN MORTALLY WOUNDED, and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED. And ALL THE WORLD MARVELED and FOLLOWED THE BEAST. 4So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and THEY WORSHIPED THE BEAST, SAYING, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” 5And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to [c]CONTINUE FOR FORTY-TWO MONTHS. 6Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7It was granted to him to MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS AND TO OVERCOME THEM. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8All who DWELL ON THE EARTH WILL WORSHIP HIM, WHOSE NAMES HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN in the BOOK OF LIFE of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. HERE IS THE [E]PATIENCE AND THE FAITH OF THE SAINTS. …” (Revelation 13:3 – 10, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

 

Did Blessed Apostle St. Paul Write in this same set of Consecutive Verses (same Topic, same Context) regarding how to “not” fall into the Antichrist’s “lie” and “deception” in 2 Thessalonians 2 itself?

 

Yes, he did but strangely some preachers only Preach the Verses above without mentioning the Verses below which were Written in the Bible during this discussion as follows:

 

“… 13But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning CHOSE YOU FOR SALVATION THROUGH [g]SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT and BELIEF IN THE TRUTH, 14to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, STAND FAST AND HOLD THE TRADITIONS WHICH YOU WERE TAUGHT, WHETHER BY WORD OR OUR [H]EPISTLE. 16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17comfort your hearts and [i]ESTABLISH YOU IN EVERY GOOD WORD AND WORK. …” (2 Thessalonians 2:13 – 17, NKJV)

Comments:

 

1) Salvation is by “Sanctification and belief in Truth”

 

“… CHOSE YOU FOR SALVATION THROUGH [g]SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT and BELIEF IN THE TRUTH …”

 

2) The “Truth” by which these True Christians who don’t fall into the deceptions of the “son of Lawlessness or Antichrist” described in earlier verses including the “…  11And for this reason God will send them STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE,…” is Described here as follows

 

“… 15Therefore, brethren, STAND FAST AND HOLD THE TRADITIONS WHICH YOU WERE TAUGHT, WHETHER BY WORD OR OUR [H]EPISTLE. …”

 

Can you see it please as “it is Written”?

 

Those who don’t fall for the lies/delusions of signs and wonders too are the same ones who will hold to the “Truth” Described here as the WRITTEN in EPISTLES (LETTERS) or VERBAL New Testament TRADITIONS which some Churches today don’t obey as I have discussed that regardless if ‘God showed them new modern ways’, I do “not” need to follow them but rather it’s safer to follow the WRITTEN NEW TESTAMENT TRADITIONS which is already 100% Accepted and Approved by God as detailed out in pages 587 to 602 in this book itself  (the free pdf book in link below titled “Mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven”):

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p7I45y8puwfyL4Ev1izPKvm0XQ6I551P/view?usp=sharing

 

In short, the “Truth” is “not” described here as some abstract Eschatologies nor as some ‘new unwritten ways’ but simply as the NEW TESTAMENT TRADITIONS which refers to GOD’S COMMANDS such as HOLINESS + the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE (with PRAYER too) or even CHURCH ORDER COMMANDS for both the GATHERING ASPECT and also AUTHORITY ASPECT as many New Testament Verses Testify clearly as “it is Written“.

 

“… 13HOLD FAST The PATTERN OF SOUND WORDS which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14That good thing which was committed to you, KEEP BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells in us. …” (2 Timothy 1:13 – 14, NKJV)

 

Regarding the “VERBAL” TRADITIONS which Apostle Paul mentions here to keep, the Roman Catholics/Orthodox often use this same Verse to claim ‘Praying to Virgin Mary + other things’. However, I beg to differ. For me, I only accept the “VERBAL TRADITIONS” which are “NOT” Written in New Testament Traditions only if they are found AMONG THE APOSTOLIC FATHRES’S WRITINGS which certainly includes the CHARITY DOCTRINE as discussed in the other book titled “Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24 December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

*Please note that NONE of them have Written the ‘Pray to Virgin Mary Tradition’ and the APOSTOLIC FATHER’S WRITINGS COULD NOT have MISSED ANY ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE especially when taken COLLECTIVELY – also this missing part of ‘Pray to Virgin Mary Tradition’ itself proves that the Roman Catholics/Orthodox did “NOT” tamper with it as someone only changes something to look more like their beliefs. Can you see it?

 

3) Another sign of those “sanctified and believe in the Truth” to be saved is clearly described here as they will be busy in  “… 17comfort your hearts and [i]ESTABLISH YOU IN EVERY GOOD WORD AND WORK. …” meaning “Good Works and Good Words (e.g. the ‘Charity Doctrine Lifestyle’ in action and encouraging others to do it) is OBEYING or FULFILLING these part of Verses too.

 

May God keep us Safe from the Delusions of the Antichrist.

 

 

Peace to you

 

Knowledge increases Rewards but Salvation is always evidenced by its “Fruit” namely “Good Works + Holiness” together by “relative measure” as John the Baptist himself declared “bear fruits worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:8, Matthew 3:8).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mystery of the Twelve Mountains in the Shepherd of Hermas – The Twelve Type of Christians

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161431786292784

 

“…  I said, “explain to me the POWER AND THE ACTIONS of EACH ONE OF THE MOUNTAINS, that every soul, trusting in the Lord, and hearing it, may GLORIFY HIS GREAT, and MARVELLOUS, and GLORIOUS NAME.” “Hear,” he said, “THE DIVERSITY OF THE MOUNTAINS and OF THE TWELVE NATIONS. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XVIII)

 

0) Introduction

 

I have explained in detail regarding the “Shepherd of Hermas” Writing how it was Scripture in much of First Christianity and today it’s one of the “Apostolic Fathers’ Writing” in pages 61 to 71 in the Book titled “Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24

December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

In the “Ninth Similitude”, we find an interesting description of the “Twelve Mountains” where it parabolically describes the “Different types of Christians who will inherit a place in the Tower of Repentance or Elect Salvation”. Let’s look at each separately and briefly below (more details for each class of Christians described in the mentioned link):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) 1st & 2nd Mountain

 

“… “From the FIRST MOUNTAIN, which was black, they that believed are the following: apostates and blasphemers against the Lord, and betrayers of the servants of God. TO THESE REPENTANCE IS NOT OPEN; but death lies before them … And from the SECOND MOUNTAIN, which was bare, THEY WHO BELIEVED ARE THE FOLLOWING: hypocrites, and teachers of wickedness. And these, accordingly, are like the former, NOT HAVING ANY FRUITS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; for as their mountain was destitute of fruit, so also such men have a name indeed, but are empty of faith, and there is no fruit of truth in them. THEY INDEED HAVE REPENTANCE in their power, if they repent quickly;  … “Why, sir,” I said, “have these repentance, but the former not? for their actions are nearly the same.” “On this account,” he said, “have these repentance, because they did not blaspheme their Lord, nor become betrayers of the servants of God; but ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR DESIRE OF POSSESSIONS THEY BECAME HYPOCRITICAL, and EACH ONE TAUGHT ACCORDING TO THE DESIRES OF MEN THAT WERE SINNERS. But they will suffer a certain punishment; and repentance is before them, because they were not blasphemers or traitors. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XIX)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

2) 3rd Mountain

 

“… And from THE THIRD MOUNTAIN, which had thorns and thistles, THEY WHO BELIEVED are the following. There ARE SOME OF THEM RICH, and others IMMERSED IN MUCH BUSINESS. The thistles are the rich, and the thorns are they who are immersed in much business. Those, [accordingly, who are entangled in many various kinds of business, do not ] cleave to the servants of God, but wander away, being choked by their business transactions; and the rich cleave with difficulty to the servants of God, FEARING LEST THESE SHOULD ASK SOMETHING OF THEM. Such persons, accordingly, shall have DIFFICULTY IN ENTERING THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But to all these repentance, and that speedy, is open, in order that what they did not do in former times they may make up for in these days, and DO SOME GOOD, AND THEY SHALL LIVE UNTO GOD. But if they abide in their deeds, they shall be delivered to those women, who will put them to death. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XX)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

3) 4th Mountain

 

“… And from the FOURTH MOUNTAIN, which had much grass, the upper parts of the plants green, and the parts about the roots withered, and some also scorched by the sun, THEY WHO BELIEVED are the following: THE DOUBTFUL, AND THEY WHO HAVE THE Lord UPON THEIR LIPS, BUT HAVE HIM NOT IN THEIR HEART. On this account their foundations are withered, and have no strength; and their words alone live, while their works are dead. Such persons are [neither alive nor ] dead. They resemble, therefore, the waverers: for the wavering are neither withered nor green, being neither living nor dead. For as their blades, on seeing the sun, were withered, so also the wavering, when they hear of affliction, on account of their fear, worship idols, and are ashamed of the name of their Lord. Such, then, are neither alive nor dead. But these also may yet live, if they repent quickly; and if they do not repent, they are already delivered to the women, who take away their life. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXI)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

4) 5th Mountain

 

“… And from the FIFTH MOUNTAIN, which had green grass, and was rugged, THEY WHO BELIEVED are the following: BELIEVERS, INDEED, BUT SLOW TO LEARN, and OBSTINATE, and PLEASING THEMSELVES, wishing to know everything, and knowing nothing at all. On account of this obstinacy of theirs, understanding departed from them, and foolish senselessness entered into them. And they PRAISE THEMSELVES AS HAVING WISDOM, and desire to become teachers, although destitute of sense. On account, therefore, of this loftiness of mind, many became vain, exalting themselves: for SELF-WILL AND EMPTY CONFIDENCE IS A GREAT DEMON. Of these, accordingly, MANY WERE REJECTED, but SOME REPENTED AND BELIEVED, and subjected themselves to those that had understanding, knowing their own foolishness. And to the REST OF THIS CLASS REPENTANCE IS OPEN; FOR THEY WERE NOT WICKED, BUT RATHER FOOLISH, and without understanding. If these THEREFORE REPENT, THEY WILL LIVE UNTO GOD; but IF THEY DO NOT REPENT, they shall have their dwelling with the women who wrought wickedness among them. …”  – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXII)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

5) 6th Mountain

 

“… “And those from the SIXTH MOUNTAIN, which had clefts large and small, and decayed grass in the clefts, WHO BELIEVED, were the following: they who occupy the small clefts are those WHO BRING CHARGES AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, and by reason of their slanders have decayed in the faith. MANY OF THEM, HOWEVER, REPENTED; and the REST ALSO WILL REPENT WHEN THEY HEAR MY COMMANDMENTS, FOR THEIR SLANDERS ARE SMALL, and they will quickly repent. But they who occupy the large clefts are persistent in their slanders, and vindictive in their anger against each other. These, therefore, were thrown away from the tower, and rejected from having a part in its building. Such persons, accordingly, shall have difficulty in living. If our God and Lord, who rules over all things, and has power over all His creation, does not remember evil against those who confess their sins, but is merciful, does man, who is corruptible and full of sins, REMEMBER EVIL AGAINST A FELLOW-MAN, AS IF HE WERE ABLE TO DESTROY OR TO SAVE HIM? I, the angel of repentance, say unto you, As many of you as are of this way of thinking, lay it aside, and REPENT, AND THE LORD WILL HEAL YOUR FORMER SINS, IF YOU PURIFY YOURSELVES FROM THIS DEMON; BUT IF NOT, YOU WILL BE DELIVERED OVER TO HIM FOR DEATH. …”  – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXIII)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

6) 7th Mountain

 

“… And THOSE WHO BELIEVED FROM the SEVENTH MOUNTAIN, on which the grass was green and flourishing, and the whole of the mountain fertile, and every kind of cattle and the fowls of heaven were feeding on the grass on this mountain, and the grass on which they pastured became more abundant, were the following: THEY WERE ALWAYS SIMPLE, AND HARMLESS, and BLESSED, BRINGING NO CHARGES AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, but always rejoicing greatly because of the servants of God, and BEING CLOTHED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT of THESE VIRGINS, AND ALWAYS HAVING PITY on EVERY MAN, AND GIVING AID FROM THEIR OWN LABOUR TO EVERY MAN, WITHOUT REPROACH AND WITHOUT HESITATION. The Lord, therefore, seeing their simplicity and all their meekness, multiplied them amid the labours of their hands, and gave them grace in all their doings. And I, the angel of repentance, say to you who are such, CONTINUE TO BE SUCH AS THESE, and YOUR SEED WILL NEVER BE BLOTTED OUT; FOR THE LORD HAS MADE TRIAL OF YOU, AND INSCRIBED YOU IN THE NUMBER OF US, and THE WHOLE OF YOUR SEED WILL DWELL WITH THE SON OF GOD; FOR YE HAVE RECEIVED OF HIS SPIRIT. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXIV)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

Comment: This is a heavy emphasis on the “Charity Doctrine Lifestyle“.

7) 8th Mountain

 

“… And THEY WHO BELIEVED FROM THE EIGHTH MOUNTAIN, where were the many fountains, and where all the creatures of God drank of the fountains, WERE THE FOLLOWING: APOSTLES, and TEACHERS, WHO PREACHED TO THE WHOLE WORLD, and WHO TAUGHT SOLEMNLY AND PURELY THE WORD OF THE LORD, and DID NOT AT ALL FALL INTO EVIL DESIRES, but walked always in righteousness and truth, according as they had received the Holy Spirit. SUCH PERSONS, therefore, SHALL ENTER IN WITH THE ANGELS. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXV)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

 

8) 9th Mountain

 

“… “And THEY WHO BELIEVED FROM THE NINTH MOUNTAIN, which was deserted, and had in it creeping things and wild beasts which destroy men, were the following: they who had the stains as servants, WHO DISCHARGED THEIR DUTY ILL, and WHO PLUNDERED WIDOWS AND ORPHANS OF THEIR LIVELIHOOD, AND GAINED POSSESSIONS FOR THEMSELVES FROM THE MINISTRY, WHICH THEY HAD RECEIVED. If, therefore, THEY REMAIN under the dominion of the SAME DESIRE, they are dead, and THERE IS NO HOPE OF LIFE FOR THEM; BUT IF THEY REPENT, and FINISH THEIR MINISTRY IN A HOLY MANNER, THEY SHALL BE ABLE TO LIVE. …  These, accordingly, are mutilated in their faith, on account of the deeds which they have done in themselves; yet some repented, and were saved. And the rest, who are of such a character, can be saved if they repent; but if they do not repent, they will perish with those women, whose strength they have assumed. …”  – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXVI)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

 

 

 

9) 10th Mountain

 

“… And FROM THE TENTH MOUNTAIN, where were TREES WHICH OVERSHADOWED CERTAIN SHEEP, THEY WHO BELIEVED WERE THE FOLLOWING: BISHOPS GIVEN TO HOSPITALITY, who always GLADLY RECEIVED INTO THEIR HOUSES the servants of God, without dissimulation. And the BISHOPS NEVER FAILED TO PROTECT, BY THEIR SERVICE, THE WIDOWS, and THOSE WHO WERE IN WANT, and always maintained a holy conversation. All these, accordingly, SHALL BE PROTECTED BY THE LORD FOR EVER. They who DO THESE THINGS ARE HONOURABLE BEFORE GOD, and THEIR PLACE IS ALREADY WITH THE ANGELS, if they remain to the end serving God. …”  – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXVII)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

Comment: This also is a heavy emphasis on the “Charity Doctrine Lifestyle“.

 

10) 11th Mountain

 

“… And FROM THE ELEVENTH MOUNTAIN, where were trees full of fruits, adorned with fruits of various kinds, THEY WHO BELIEVED were the following: THEY WHO SUFFERED FOR THE NAME of THE SON OF GOD, and who also SUFFERED CHEERFULLY with their whole heart, and laid down their lives.” “Why, then, sir,” I said, “do all these trees bear fruit, and SOME OF THEM FAIRER THAN THE REST? “Listen,” he said: “all who once suffered for the name of the Lord are honourable before God; and of all these the sins were remitted, because they suffered for the name of the Son of God. And why their fruits are of various kinds, and some of them superior, listen. All,” he continued, “who were brought before the authorities and were examined, and did not deny, BUT SUFFERED CHEERFULLY–THESE ARE HELD IN GREATER HONOUR WITH GOD, AND OF THESE THE FRUIT IS SUPERIOR; but ALL WHO WERE COWARDS, AND IN DOUBT, and who REASONED IN THEIR HEARTS WHETHER THEY WOULD DENY OR CONFESS, AND YET SUFFERED, OF THESE THE FRUIT IS LESS, BECAUSE THAT SUGGESTION CAME INTO THEIR HEARTS; for that suggestion–that a servant should deny his Lord–IS EVIL. Have a care, therefore, ye who are planning such things, lest that suggestion remain in your hearts, and ye perish unto God. And ye who suffer for His name ought to glorify God, because He deemed you worthy to bear His name, that all your sins might be healed. [Therefore, rather deem yourselves happy], AND THINK THAT YE HAVE DONE A GREAT THING, IF ANY OF YOU SUFFER on account of God. The Lord bestows upon you life, and YE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, FOR YOUR SINS WERE HEAVY; BUT IF YOU HAD NOT SUFFERED FOR THE NAME OF THE LORD, YE WOULD HAVE DIED TO GOD ON ACCOUNT OF YOUR SINS. These things I say to you who are hesitating about denying or confessing: acknowledge that ye have the Lord, lest, denying Him, ye be delivered up to prison. If the heathen chastise their slaves, when one of them denies his master, what, think ye, will your Lord do, who has authority over all men? Put away these counsels out of your hearts, that you may live continually unto God. …”  – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXVIII)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

Comment: Not every martyrdom is great as some Christians had to die as martyrs because that’s the only way they could have borne the “fruit” unto salvation as their sins were too great as these phrases from the above clearly means: ‘… AND THINK THAT YE HAVE DONE A GREAT THING, IF ANY OF YOU SUFFER on account of God. The Lord bestows upon you life, and YE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, FOR YOUR SINS WERE HEAVY; BUT IF YOU HAD NOT SUFFERED FOR THE NAME OF THE LORD, YE WOULD HAVE DIED TO GOD ON ACCOUNT OF YOUR SINS.  …’

 

11) 12th Mountain

 

“… “And THEY WHO BELIEVED FROM THE TWELFTH MOUNTAIN, which was white, are the following: they are as infant children, IN WHOSE HEARTS NO EVIL ORIGINATES; NOR DID THEY KNOW WHAT WICKEDNESS IS, but ALWAYS REMAINED AS CHILDREN. Such accordingly, without doubt, DWELL IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, BECAUSE THEY DEFILED IN NOTHING THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD; but THEY REMAINED LIKE CHILDREN ALL THE DAYS OF THEIR LIFE in the SAME MIND. All of you, then, who shall remain stedfast, and BE AS CHILDREN, WITHOUT DOING EVIL, WILL BE MORE HONOURED THAN ALL WHO HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED; for all infants are honourable before God, and ARE THE FIRST PERSONS WITH HIM. BLESSED, then, are YE WHO PUT AWAY WICKEDNESS FROM YOURSELVES, and PUT ON INNOCENCE. As the first of all will you live unto God.” After he had finished the similitudes of the mountains, I said to him, “Sir, explain to me now about the stones that were taken out of the plain, and put into the building instead of the stones that were taken out of the tower; and about the round stones that were put into the building; and those that still remain round.” …”  – Shepherd of Hermas (Ninth Similitude, CHAPTER XXVIII)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

Conclusion

 

The Greatest ones are those of the “TWELFTH MOUNTAIN” type as the Shepherd of Hermas Says, “… BE AS CHILDREN, WITHOUT DOING EVIL, WILL BE MORE HONOURED THAN ALL WHO HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED; for all infants are honourable before God, and ARE THE FIRST PERSONS WITH HIM. …”.

 

How to do this? The Shepherd Answers above in the next line above “… BLESSED, then, are YE WHO PUT AWAY WICKEDNESS FROM YOURSELVES, and PUT ON INNOCENCE. …”.

 

Regardless of whether one accepts the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture or not (Let God Reveal it One Day), it certainly correlates well with many Bible Verses and all the above are “righteous words” indeed.

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Remarks – Deeper Insights or “Possibilities” based on the Bible with the Shepherd of Hermas

 

1) The Shepherd of Hermas Quote regarding the Eleventh Mountain seem to point not just to martyrdom but also the general “suffering” for Christ to be categorised into two categories namely, those that willingly suffer (great fruits/rewards/glory) Vs those who are forced to or have to to be saved (lesser fruits/lesser glory/lesser rewards) because the latter is said to be “with much sin” and thus “without such suffering” they “cannot be saved” since they have “no” willing “fruits” in their lives implying for example that these could be living “selfish lifestyles prior”.

 

Please also note that a willing “laying down of life” which is the opposite of the “selfish lifestyle” is clearly revealed as the “Charity Doctrine Lifestyle” in 1 John 3:16 – 18 which marks it to be possibly equal to the willing martyrdom as 1 John 3:16 clearly calls it as “laying down our lives” = “willing martyrdom”.

 

Based on 1 John 3:16 – 18 itself, it’s best to self test again to see that a person who would willingly die in martyrdom type would generally be the same Christian who would love the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle suffering for the benefit of others willingly likewise (please remember “Relative Measure” as per the case of the Poor Widow with Two coins (Luke 21:1 – 4) and also that to him “more is given, more is required” (Luke 12:46 – 48) before flattering oneself unduly). Verses:

 

“… 10In this the CHILDREN OF GOD and THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL are manifest: Whoever DOES NOT PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS is not of God, NOR IS HE WHO DOES NOT LOVE HIS BROTHER. 11For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? BECAUSE HIS WORKS WERE EVIL AND HIS BROTHER’S RIGHTEOUS. … 16By this WE KNOW LOVE, because He laid down His life for us. And we also OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BRETHREN. 17But WHOEVER HAS THIS WORLD’S GOODS, and SEES HIS BROTHER IN NEED, AND SHUTS UP HIS HEART FROM HIM, HOW DOES THE LOVE OF GOD ABIDE IN HIM? 18My little children, let us NOT LOVE IN WORD or IN TONGUE, BUT IN DEED AND IN TRUTH …” (1 John 3: 10 – 12, 16 – 18, NKJV)

 

 

This Principle of getting more abundant Glory by seeking to do “more of His Commands Willingly” especially those Commands (which does “not” affect your Salvation) and so to do it benefits others such as “Love your enemies type beyond same family , same church, same denomination, same race etc.” (versus some Commands which Christians keep just to save themselves from Hell) merits GREATER GLORY as per this Shepherd of Hermas Quote below too (hence it’s in Context within this same Writing too), to quote:

 

“… I said to him, “Sir, I do not see the meaning of these similitudes, nor am I able to comprehend them, unless you explain them to me.” “I will explain them all to you,” he said, “and whatever I shall mention in the course of our conversations I will show you. [Keep the commandments of the Lord, and you will be approved, and inscribed amongst the number of those who observe His commands.] AND IF YOU DO ANY GOOD BEYOND WHAT IS COMMANDED BY GOD, YOU WILL GAIN FOR YOURSELF MORE ABUNDANT GLORY, and WILL BE MORE HONOURED BY GOD THAN YOU WOULD DO OTHERWISE. If, therefore, in keeping the commandments of God, you do, in addition, these services, you will have joy if you observe them according to my command.” …” Shepherd of Hermas (Fifth Similitude, CHAPTER III)

 

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

Example of Commands which are NOT MANDATORY but OPTIONAL which can refer to the “GOOD” which are “not Commands (Mandatory)” but done “WILLINGLY”:

 

1. i) Voluntary Poverty for the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle

 

“… 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth. What do I still lack?”21JESUS said to him, “If you want to be PERFECT, GIVE to the POOR, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, FOLLOW ME.” …” (Matthew 19:20 – 21, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

1. ii) The Eunuch type of Faith

 

“… For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. He who is ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:12, NKJV)

 

“… 7For I WISH THAT ALL MEN WERE EVEN as I MYSELF. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8But I say to the UNMARRIED AND TO THE WIDOWS: IT IS GOOD FOR THEM IF THEY REMAIN EVEN AS I AM; 9but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. … 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have TROUBLE IN THE FLESH, but I WOULD SPARE YOU. … 32But I want you to be without care. He who is UNMARRIED CARES FOR THE THINGS OF THE LORD—how he may PLEASE THE LORD. 33But HE WHO IS MARRIED CARES about the THINGS OF THE WORLD—how he may PLEASE HIS WIFE. … 38So then he who GIVES HER IN MARRIAGE DOES WELL, but he WHO DOES NOT GIVE HER IN MARRIAGE DOES BETTER. …” (1 Corinthians 7:7 – 9, 28, 32 – 33, 38, NKJV)

 

 

“TO THE EUNUCHS who keep my sabbaths,

And CHOOSE WHAT PLEASES ME,

And hold fast My covenant,

5Even to them I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE

And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE AND A NAME

BETTER THAN THAT OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS;

I will give [a]them AN EVERLASTING NAME

That SHALL NOT BE CUT OFF. …” (Isaiah 56:4 – 5, NKJV)

 

This was discussed in detail in Pages 579 to 586 in this Book.

Note: Nothing wrong in “SEEKING for GLORY and IMMORTALITY and HONOUR” except that don’t seek it from men on earth but on “Judgment Day” from God and thus keep away from man-made doctrines which run down the encouragement to “not” bother about these non-mandatory commands/willing commands as listed above as ‘the loss of it would be eternal’ (so may God Help us to be Wise) in doing what we can BY HIS GRACE ONLY:

 

“… ETERNAL LIFE to those who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD SEEK FOR GLORY, HONOR and IMMORTALITY; …” (Romans 2:7, NKJV)

 

As long as we remember that any Good Act we could do is by “God” Working it through us, there will be “no” self-righteousness (as self-righteousness is assuming that we are doing the Good Works instead of admitting that GOD IS THE ONE DOING IT THORUGH US, the “Jesus in You” Principle) as Revealed in example Verse below:

 

“… for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO for His good pleasure. …” (Philippians 2:13, NKJV)

 

2) A Racist Christians self test

 

To see whether we are Racist Christians within, let us examine ourselves by asking for example if we will accept our sons/daughters to marry someone of a different race that person was a believer and not wicked (all other factors held constant). Apart from this, some people could be Racist within where they only help those of their own race/own family or even only try to evangelize their own race etc. Perhaps that’s why this type of Christians are actually forced to be saved only via martyrdom as the Shepherd of Hermas Quote may match in that if let in a free country, they will live racistly as Christians too. Not all are like that and blessed are those who are not racist within who if they suffer willingly, great is their glory.

 

3) The Shepherd of Hermas Quotes on the Twelve Mountains need not to be viewed as separate classes only as the wise thing to do would be to try to do the “best acts” of each class which is highly regarded before God to Please Him.

 

For example, imagine a Christian who is like a child within (as per the Twelfth Mountain description in this Shepherd of Hermas, e.g. Matthew 18:4 – 5, Mark 9:34 – 37, Mark 10:36 – 45)  who chooses to live out the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle (as per the Seventh & Tenth Mountain description in this Shepherd of Hermas, e.g. 1 John 3:16 – 18, Acts 2:44 – 46, Acts 4:32, Galatians 2:10, Matthew 19:21 – 24, Luke 10:25 – 37, Luke 12:31 – 34, Luke 11:39 – 42 etc.) but does “not” Judge others who differ from his ways by even supporting and helping those different views Christians on things which they agree instead of being schismatic (as per the seventh mountain ones, Matthew 7:1 – 2, 1 Corinthians 4:5) who if suffer willingly for the Gospel in some way to fulfil Its Commands may thus attain to greater rewards or glory, seeking Heavenly Rewards instead of earthly ones (as per the Description of the Eleventh Mountain ones in this Shepherd of Hermas, Matthew 5:47, Luke 6:32, Luke 6:33, as the “Great Reward” in Luke 6:35, as set your mind on “Heavenly things not earthly”-Colossians 3:2, which primarily Includes the Charity Doctrine Lifestyle part of Seeking His Kingdom by “Sell what you have and Give to Charity” as Christ Himself Taught in Luke 12:31 – 34 for one’s “Heart” is not determined by smooth words in glorifying God but in this Charity Doctrine as Christ Says your heart is in Heaven if your treasure is in Heaven in these Verses as “no” man can do a new way of seeking His Kingdom against what Christ has Clearly Specified in these Verses as “it is Written”).

 

4) This same Shepherd of Hermas also has a non-Elect Salvation taught clearly which is outside this ‘Christian or Elect Tower of Repentance’ as I have discussed in detail in pages 64 to 68 in the Book titled “Eternal Hell Annihilation and Universalism in Christianity – Can all three be true A Look with the Apostolic Fathers” (Completed 24

December 2021) in pdf (free download/viewing) in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N5bK-LoBAg4VQN8eLtVWsqkQyoGE0Ad_/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Is converting Souls more important or Teaching Accurate Doctrine?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161407047987784

 

Question

 

NOTE: Remember our JOB is to win souls to Christ, not religious arguments.

 

Reply

 

Not really accurate as we are called to do both, please consider this “Bible Verse”:

 

“… Those who are WISE shall shine Like the BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT, And THOSE WHO TURN MANY to RIGHTEOUSNESS Like the STARS forever and ever. …” (Daniel 12:3, NKJV)

 

Comments:

 

1. Convert Many (“Win souls“)

 

‘… Shine like the STARS …’ Levels

 

2. Those who are WISE (Theologically more accurate) = Original Word = Insight (Context Knowledge)

 

‘… Shine like the FIRMAMENTS (HEAVENS*) …’

 

*Note: The Word “Firmament” refers to the “HEAVENS or FOUNDATION OF HEAVENS” which is WAY BRIGHTER than the STARS‘ Glory where all these are in the Context of “Celestial (Heavenly) Glory referring to the Final Resurrection Body of Christians‘ as Revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42 clearly as ‘it is Written‘.

 

First Christianity Taught likewise as discussed in Source post in link below (with more details too):

https://www.facebook.com/651792783/posts/10161253065962784/

 

 

Example: Christ Himself had only “12 Apostles” at the highest levels or the “Firstfruit” of Salvation refers to purely “unmarried Jewish Virgin Men only” (Revelation 7:1 – 10, Revelation 14:1 – 5) as the “Firstfruits” indicates the holiest lot which has nothing to do with number of converts as ‘how many unmarried Jewish Virgin Men from history even are known to have big number of converts or pastor mega churches’?

 

 

 

 

 

END

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

OSAS and NON-ELECT SALVATION Possibility with the Possible Scripture Shepherd of Hermas and Beyond

 

1) What is OSAS?

 

OSAS stands for “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrinal stance where it was Preached like the great late evangelist Mr. Billy Graham. It basically means that if you have believed in Christ (be Saved), no matter what you sin after that, you will eventually be saved where they quote Bible Verses such as “… whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life …” (John 3:16) making the claim of Salvation based on “FAITH ALONE” (Sola Fide). The extremes of OSAS clearly points that the “WORKS of SIN” does not affect the Final Salvation at all despite one may be punished in this life (or in the afterlife via “Saved by Fire”?). Based on this, they encourage anyone to just believe (or try to believe) so that they could be hope for them.  However, other Christians oppose this position mainly based on the fact that Hebrews 10 or Matthew 22 (as just discussed in last chapter) points to the rejection of MANY and FEW SAVED based on THEIR WORKS. But as we have seen on Page 122 earlier, the Context for “Few Saved” can also refer to the First Resurrection number meaning some could be Saved during the Second Resurrection which can include ‘fallen Christians’ who could be “SAVED by FIRE” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15) as per First Christianity’s Chiliasm Champion  of Faith’s quote below which refers to this TIMELINE of between the FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION (1000 years Time Period, Revelation 20:5) where some can be “SAVED after this LAKE of FIRE” destroying THEIR WORKS OF SIN (possibly a type of non-Elect Salvation), to quote these:

 

1. i) Saved by Fire

 

“… 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.  …” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

1. ii) The “Fire” in “Saved by Fire” referred to is the “Lake of Fire” Context

 

“… 13each ONE’S WORK will become clear; FOR THE DAY WILL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT WILL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; and THE FIRE WILL TEST EACH ONE’S WORK, of what sort it is. 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.” (1 Corinthians 3:13 – 15, NKJV)

Note: Either way, there is “loss” despite “being saved” if we end up “saved by fire” where this “Fire” refers to the “Lake of Fire” Context simply because it refers to the “FIRE which is to be REVEALED on THAT DAY (when He Returns or perhaps Judgment Day 1000 years later, no one knows which for sure) in Verses above for ‘this Salvation case’ (most likely non-Elect Salvation I think).

 

iii) First Christianity Quote for Salvation of “Saved by Fire” referring to the “Lake of Fire” Context

 

“… “OUR SAVIOUR has appointed TWO KINDS of RESURRECTION in the APOCALYPSE. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION,’ for such COME TO GRACE WITHOUT JUDGMENT. As FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT COME TO THE FIRST, but are reserved unto the SECOND RESURRECTION, THESE SHALL BE DISCIPLINED UNTIL THEIR APPOINTED TIMES, BETWEEN THE FIRST AND THE SECOND RESURRECTION.” …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD)

 

Source: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ambrose    or

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose#

 

1. iv) Existence of OSAS Christians

 

“… 67. There are SOME, indeed, WHO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT ABANDON the NAME OF CHRIST, and WHO ARE BAPTIZED in his laver in the Church, who are NOT CUT OFF FROM IT BY SCHISM or HERESY, WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE THUS, and are STILL CATHOLICS, ARE DECEIVED, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. For the divine Scripture, when consulted, answers differently. Moreover, I have written a book about this question, entitled Faith and Works,142 in which, with God’s help, I have shown as best I could that, according to Holy Scripture, the faith that saves is the faith that the apostle Paul adequately describes when he says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but the faith which works through love.”143 But if faith works evil and not good, then without doubt, according to the apostle James “it is dead in itself.”144 He then goes on to say, “If a man says he has faith, yet has not works, can his faith be enough to save him? …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Point 67, “Faith and Works”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

 

Comments:

 

1. OSAS Type of Doctrine

 

“… 67. There are SOME, indeed, WHO BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT ABANDON the NAME OF CHRIST, and WHO ARE BAPTIZED in his laver in the Church, who are NOT CUT OFF FROM IT BY SCHISM or HERESY, WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. …”

 

1. Please notice carefully that St. Augustine believed in the CHARITY DOCTRINE as a MUST FOR REPENTANCE and ALSO FOR JUDGMENT of SINS to be REMOVED, his quote here (which many protestants deny but CHRIST TAUGHT it clearly in LUKE 11:39 – 45 in this Context too):

 

“… WHO MAY THEN LIVE IN SINS HOWEVER GREAT, NOT WASHING THEM AWAY BY REPENTANCE, NOR REDEEMING THEM BY ALMS –and WHO OBTINATELY PERSEVERE IN THEM TO LIFE’S LAST DAY …”

Please notice the Relative Measure of ability to do REPENTANCE and ALMS (= Charity Doctrine) till the ‘last day’ of one’s earthly life  in St. Augustine’s phrase above proving he believed in it as he contrasts the OSAS type of Christians to DENY THESE.

 

 

 

iii. Some Type of Salvation (possibly non-Elect) is believed by such OSAS Christians even in the Context of LAKE of FIRE quoting 1 Corinthians 3:15’s Context likewise here

“… – EVEN THESE WILL STILL BE SAVED, “THOUGH AS BY FIRE.” [1 Corinthians 3:15] THEY BELIEVE THAT SUCH PEOPLE WILL BE PUNISHED BY FIRE, PROLONGED IN PROPORTION TO THEIR SINS, BUT STILL NOT ETERNAL. …”

 

1. Please notice carefully that even St. Augustine (as strict as he is portrayed) does NOT call these Christians (Catholic means ‘Universal Christians’) as believing in HERESY NOR SCHISM but are STILL SAVED regardless proving clearly that even if errors in Doctrine are made about these areas NO ONE IS A HERETIC

 

“… BUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE THUS, and are STILL CATHOLICS, ARE DECEIVED, as it seems to me, by a kind of merely human benevolence. …”

1. v) Existence of UNIVERSALIST Christians in First Christianity

 

“… “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. …” — St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.)

Source: https://www.mercyuponall.org/tag/church-fathers/

 

or

“… Yet even in his wrath–his wrath resting on them–he does not “shut up his mercy.” This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. … Now, if this wrath were all there is in man’s damnation, and even if it were present only in the slightest degree conceivable–still, to be lost out of the Kingdom of God, to be an exile from the City of God, to be estranged from the life of God, to suffer loss of the great abundance of God’s blessings which he has hidden for those who fear him and prepared for those who hope in him240 –this would be a punishment so great that, if it be eternal, no torments that we know could be compared to it, no matter how many ages they continued. …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Points 112 – 113, CHAPTER XXIX. “The Last Things”, Enchiridion).

Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/augustine_enchiridion_02_trans.htm

Note: St. Augustine of Hippo himself affirms in his own words here that we may contemplate such a possibility described above as “not Denying Holy Scripture” (and hence we are not heretics) even though he believed in Eternal Hell for the Wicked.

 

Also the “Opinion of St. Augustine” is very important indeed simply because even Blessed John Calvin (Founder of the Reformed Church Protestants) himself learnt his theology from St. Augustine’s Writings. Example quote:

 

“…  Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings  …” – Blessed John Calvin, Protestant Reformer Theologian (Creator of the Five Point Calvinism or Tulips Doctrine for Protestanism)

Source: Calvin, John. A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God. in Calvin, John (1987). Calvin’s Calvinism. Translated by Henry Cole. Grandville, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association. p. 38

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinian_Calvinism

 

1. vi) St. Ambrose’s Quotes detailing the Lake of Fire understanding as Salvation is Possible from there? You decide, example discussion in support of it is as follows:

 

St. Ambrose defined Luke 12:49 to refer to the Final Lake of Fire/Gehenna Judgment as the Final Baptism of Fire on that Day toward the Wicked or Fallen Believers too where the sin or the work of the flesh:

 

“… I came to set the earth on fire, and what is my will, if not that finally it lights up? [Luke 12:49] I must be baptized with a baptism, and what is my torment as long as it is not accomplished! ” Higher up, He has kept us vigilant, waiting at all times for the coming of the Lord Savior, lest by slackening, by negligence, by differing from day to day his work, such, preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all, in the form of a general precept; but the theme of the following comparison seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them. But as the profit is thin, and the merit is low, when it is the fear of the punishment which prevents from going astray, since the charity and the love have a superior dignity, the Lord sharpens our zeal to deserve its favor and we are inflamed with the desire to acquire God, saying, “I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;… They have thus taught with evidentness what is the action of this fire, which enlightens the intimate of the heart. For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:49 – 50)

Source:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrose-on-luke-12

 

 

Proof Phrase that this Refers to the Final Lake of Fire Judgment toward those Christians who are treated as Unbelievers (Luke 12:46) from the above by St. Ambrose himself: “… I came to set the earth on fire … preceded by the day of the future judgment or by his own death, lose the reward of his management. It was addressed to all… seems to be proposed to the bishops, that is to say, to the bishops, to let them know that they will have to undergo a severe punishment later, if, occupied with the pleasures of the century, they neglected to govern the house of the Lord and the people entrusted to them … I have come to set fire to the earth,” not certainly the fire that consumes the goods, but the one that produces the good will, which makes the vases of and from the house of the Lord, consuming the hay and the straw (I Cor. iii. 12ff., 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15), devouring all the gangue of the age, amassed by worldly pleasure, the work of the flesh that is to perish;…”.

 

 

Indeed, you can clearly see that St. Ambrose reveals that some Christian leaders or bishops are punished as unbelievers (Luke 12:46) in the Lake of Fire Context (hence the current purgatory is not enough) during the future Day of Judgment in a fire which produces ‘good will’ as he even quotes 1 Corinthians 3:12 implying that 1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15 may be applied to mean Salvation from the Lake of Fire, yes “even so through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15) toward such fallen-believers who are deemed equal to unbelievers who have ‘equal sentences’ (Luke 12:46) proving our Context Claim Right Again. Can you see it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless, the “wicked” are said to be in the lake of Fire only till the last penny (not forever but an Aeonian Sentence which is proportioned according to their sin) as St. Ambrose’s commentary on Verses 58 – 59 prior clearly prove as follows:

 

“… It will be the same at the end of time: the angels will come to separate the wicked from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. … On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

Christ Himself is the “Fire” through which they are Saved (1 Corinthians 3:11 – 15) as St. Ambrose Revealed above:

 

“… For this reason perhaps the Lord will come into the fire (see Is., LXVI, 15; 16): to consume all the vices at the moment of the resurrection, to fill by his presence the desires of each one, and to project the light on merits and mysteries….” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (Commentary on Luke 12:49, highlighted)

 

Strangely, the Commentary for Luke 12:46 – 48 is missing in the link above. Did St. Ambrose not write it or was it lost in history?

 

Two Ways Sin is Diminished in the ‘Prison’ of the Lake of Fire

 

Bible Verses:

 

 

“… For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent. …” – Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:58 – 59, NASB)

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. a) 1st & 2nd Way Combined (the Last Baptism of Fire which applies to All Human Being either in this life or next – Mark 9:49, Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17):

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. Now it is the custom, as we remember, to give a bath to the baths: by presenting it, everyone obtains the faculty of bathing there; so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. On the other hand, the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

1. b) 1st Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either the wrong is redeemed at the price of charity, … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

1. c) 2nd Way highlighted:

 

“…Likewise here: either … or the punishment diminished according to the appreciation of the wrong. … so, here, to be purified, because the sin of each is purified by the kind of transaction described above… the guilty person is tortured and tortured as long as he has not served the sentence of the error committed…” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Commentary on Luke XII, Verses Luke 12:58 – 59, highlighted)

 

 

I repeat: Though I argue as though St. Ambrose must have believed like this, I am “not” Saying that this must be it but as a “possibility” only these days since no one can say for sure. So for Truth’s sake, I present the evidence for such claims accordingly from Orthodox First Christianity and not by quoting heretics.

 

 

 

vii) St. Ambrose of Milan himself could have been an Universalist

 

St. Augustine’s Teacher and Converter, St. Ambrose of Milan himself may have believed in Universalism too, Example Quotes:

 

 

“… 167. How, then, will they be brought into subjection? In the way that the Lord Himself has said. “Take My yoke upon you.” It is not the fierce that bear the yoke, but the humble and the gentle. This clearly is NON BASE SUBJECTION for MEN, but a GLORIOUS ONE: “that in the NAME of JESUS EVERY KNEE should bow, of things in heaven and things beneath; and that EVERY  TONGUE should CONFESS that JESUS IS LORD in the Glory of God the Father.” But for this reason all things were not made subject before, for they had not yet received the wisdom of God, not yet did they wear the easy yoke of the Word on the neck as it were of their mind. “But as many as received Him,” as it is written, “to them gave He power to become the sons of God.” 168. Will any one say that Christ is now made subject, because MANY have BELIEVED? Certainly NOT. For Christ’s subjection lies NOT in a FEW but in ALL. For just as I do not seem to be brought into subjection, if the flesh in me as yet lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, although I am in part subdued; so because the WHOLE CHURCH is the one body of Christ, we DIVIDE CHRIST as long as the HUMAN RACE DISAGREES. Therefore Christ is not yet made subject, for His members are not yet brought into subjection. But when we have become, not many members, but one spirit, then He also will become subject, in order that through His subjection   “God may be ALL and IN ALL.”  …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: Selected Works and Letters, Book V Prologue, Points 167 – 168,  Page 720)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

 

 

 

 

“… Let us then shortly sum up our CONCLUSION on the whole matter. A unity of power puts aside all idea of a degrading subjection. His giving up of power, and His victory as conqueror won over death, have not lessened His power. Obedience works out subjection. Christ has taken obedience upon Himself, obedience even to taking on Him our flesh, the cross even to gaining our salvation. Thus where the work lies, there too is the Author of the work. When therefore, all things have become subject to Christ, through Christ’s obedience, so that ALL bend their knees in His name, then He Himself will be ALL in ALL. For NOW, since ALL do NOT BELIEVE, ALL do NOT seem to be in SUBJECTION. But WHEN ALL have BELIEVED and DONE the will of God, then Christ will be ALL and in ALL. And when Christ is all and in all, then will God be all and in all; for the Father abides ever in the Son. How, then, is He shown to be weak, Who redeemed the weak? …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Selected Works and Letters, Page 726, Chapter 15, Point 182)

 

Source:

 

https://archive.org/stream/St.AmbroseSelectedWorksAndLetters/st_ambrose_selected_works_and_letters_djvu.txt

 

 

“… This is that peace above all peace which shall be granted AFTER the THIRD SHAKING of the heaven, the sea, the earth and the dry land, when He shall DESTROY ALL PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS [Ephesians 6:12, Colossians 2:15, Isaiah 24:21]. For HEAVEN and EARTH shall PASS AWAY [Revelation 21:1],306 and ALL  the FASHION of this WORLD [1 Corinthians 7:31, 1 John 2:17]; … And thus there will be peace over all, the passions of the body offering no resistance, and the UNBELIEVING mind NO OBSTACLE [Romans 3:3 – 4], that CHRIST may be ALL in ALL [1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28], offering in SUBJECTION to the Father the HEARTS of ALL MEN [1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10] …”  – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, LETTER XXX, AMBROSE TO IRENAEUS, GREETING, Point 14)

 

Source:

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/ambrose_letters_03_letters21_30.htm

 

 

“… Paul makes a prayer for himself when he says: ‘That God may open the ‘door of his Word for me to announce the MYSTERY of CHRIST.‘ 15 Appropriate for the occasion was the substance of his prayer. In preaching the Gospel he was clearly chosen to be the one who opened the door of the Word, from which issued the SALVATION of the GENTILES and LIFE itself for ALL PEOPLE. … [Salvation for Which People? Context: All Men = the Whole Human Race as St. Ambrose explains just three points later as follows] … You are instructed above all to pray for the people, that is, for ALL MEN [1 Timothy 2:1], 28 for all members of your family, which is a conspicuous sign of mutual love. If you make a petition for yourself, then you pray merely for your own satisfaction. If everyone were thus to make a petition just for himself, he would become, not a petitioner, but an intercessor for favors. We conclude, therefore, that a petition for oneself is restricted to the person petitioning, whereas a PETITION for ALL MEN INCLUDES ONESELF, as you are a part of that number. Hence, great is the recompense wherein ALL MEN are accorded the benefits acquired by the prayers of each individual of the group. In this there is no question of presumption. Rather, it is much more the reflection of a humble heart, bestowing benefits more abundantly. …” – Blessed Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan, the first Great Latin Doctor of the Church, Converter, Baptizer and Teacher of St. Augustine of Hippo  (c. 340 AD – c. 397 AD, Ambrose: fathers of the church, Gain and Abel, Points 36, 39, Chapter 9 Page 392, 395)

 

Source:

https://archive.org/stream/fathersofthechur027571mbp/fathersofthechur027571mbp_djvu.txt

 

Again, no one can say for certain if St. Ambrose of Milan was a Universalist or not but it certainly “possible” in light of all these quotes from his writings. As I said, we consider these as a “possibility” since no one knows for sure.

 

 

Comment: So John 3:16 can include such ones too, right? If not, then this Verse Speaks of a possible “non-Elect Salvation” and Let God Decide one day which is the case. Now even if the Context of Verses above Speaks of a “Fallen Christian” (Luke 12:46 – 48), his portion (final fate) is said to be EQUAL to UNBELIEVERS (Luke 12:46) meaning that these Verses could likewise all point to the NON-ELECT SALVATION of SAVED BY FIRE (1 Corinthians 3:15) making OSAS and possibly Christ Centered Universalism true likewise for “RANSOM for ALL” (e.g. 1 Timothy 2:6) may point really to “… ALL MEN to be SAVED …” eventually (1 Timothy 2:4) and hence PRAYERS and THANKSGIVINGs are made for ALL MEN in light of this Hope (1 Timothy 2:1) though some “BY [Lake of Fire] FIRE” only if these are understood in this way which is “possible” too as demonstrated via St. Ambrose of Milan’s quotes itself here.

“… 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; … 4Who will have ALL MEN to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. … 6Who gave himself a RANSOM for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME[s]. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. …” (1 Timothy 2:1, 4, 6 – 7, KJV)

 

2) St. Athanasius and RANSOM for ALL Meaning

St. Athanasius seems to understand that Christ’s “Ransom for ALL” includes even to the JEWS who DID NOT BELIEVE in HIM on earth too in the context of “SALVATION for ALL” eventually (if this is what he meant below, difficult, right?)

 

“… He it is that was crucified before the sun and all creation as witnesses, and before those who put Him to death: and by His death has SALVATION  come to ALL, and ALL CREATION  been RANSOMED. He is the Life of all, and He it is that as a sheep yielded His body to death as a substitute, for the SALVATION  of ALL, even though the Jews believe it not…” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, Point 7, S:37. PSALM XXII. 16, &C. MAJESTY OF HIS BIRTH AND DEATH. CONFUSION OF ORACLES AND DEMONS IN EGYPT)

 

Source: https://www.ecatholic2000.com/fathers/untitled-820.shtml#_Toc390306303

 

1. ii) St. Athanasius and NON-ELECT Salvation POSSIBILITY

 

This Context is strong because we know that St. Athanasius most likely believed in some type of non-Elect Salvation FROM HADES too based on his quote below (pointing to BELIEVING after SEEING POSSIBILITY as discussed in earlier Books)

 

“… And if a man has gone down even to HADES, and stands awestruck before the heroes who have descended thither, regarding them as gods, still he may see the fact of Christ’s resurrection and His victory over death, and reason from it that, of all these, He alone is very Lord and God. For the Lord touched all parts of creation, and freed and undeceived them all from every deceit. As St. Paul says, “Having put off from Himself the principalities and the powers, He triumphed on the cross,”(Col. 2. 15) so that no one could possibly be any longer deceived, but everywhere might find the very Word of God. For thus man, enclosed on every side by the works of creation and everywhere-in heaven, in HADES, in men and on the earth, beholding the unfolded Godhead of the Word, is no longer deceived concerning God, but worships Christ alone, and through Him rightly knows the Father. On these grounds, then, of reason and of principle, we will fairly silence the Gentiles in their turn. But if they think these arguments insufficient to confute them, we will go on in the next chapter to prove our point from facts. … ” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, ‘On the Incarnation’, , Ibid, Chapter 7/ Section 45)

 

Translation Source:

https://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.7.htm

 

iii) St. Athanasius’ Approval of the Shepherd of Hermas for ‘Greater Accuracy’

 

Now, since St. Athanasius also ACCEPTED the SHEPHERD of HERMAS WRITING QUOTED EARLIER in the CONTEXT of NON-ELECT SALVATION as TRUTH (even if not at the Level of Canonical Scripture) as he says to “GREATER ACCURACY in regards to the DOCTRINE of PIETY” (his own words testify as follows):

 

“… These are the springs of salvation, in order that he who is thirsty may fully refresh himself with the words contained in them. In them alone is the doctrine of piety proclaimed. Let no one add anything to them or take anything away from them… But for the sake of greater accuracy I add, being constrained to write, that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” – Blessed St. Athanasius the Great, the Father of Orthodoxy, Patriarch of Alexandria and Champion of Trinity, Doctor of the Church and Confessor, Coptic Pope (c. 296 AD – c. 373 AD, The 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE))  Source: http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml

 

Note: Quoting the later councils and all that doesn’t matter so much because they all quote St. Athanasius for the 27 Book New Testament as even the Protestants do. I know of no earlier leader of the church to mention such number of books but may list more too or less too or not mention some too. I have discussed these same quotes and more on Page 179 onward in this Book.

A keen eye would notice that for St. Athanasius at that time even, the “Book of Esther” was “outside of the Bible” (just like the Shepherd of Hermas or others mentioned in his quote above) but today is one of the 66 books meaning these other books also could be likewise in his quote above: “…that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd.  …”

 

*Shepherd = Shepherd of Hermas (in quote above)

 

St. Athanasius clearly points that each of these listed books are “accepted” while he states as “Apocrypha”  in his usage here “NOT” referring to these books but ‘other fake books made by heretics’ (which are “not” listed here meaning what is “not” listed could be potentially from heretical sources). That quote from above:

 

“…And although, beloved, the former are in the canon and the latter serve as reading matter, yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics, who write them down when it pleases them and generously assign to them an early date of composition in order that they may be able to draw upon them as supposedly ancient writings and have in them occasion to deceive the guileless. …” …”

 

Comments, please consider these phrases carefully:

 

1) “… the former are in the canon  …” = 27 New Testament Books (Accepted)

 

2) “… and the latter serve as reading matter, …” = “… .that there are also other books besides these, which have not indeed been put in the canon, but have been appointed by the Fathers as reading-matter for those who have just come forward and which to be instructed in the doctrine of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon, the Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobias, the so-called Teaching [Didache] of the Apostles, and the Shepherd [of Hermas]. …” (Accepted)

 

3) “… yet mention is nowhere made of the apocrypha; rather they are a fabrication of the heretics …” = Books which are “not” listed above (Rejected).

 

4) Shepherd of Hermas and NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY

 

1. i) Firstly, each is given a Relative Measure of Faith according to GRACE GIVEN

 

“… For I say, through the GRACE GIVEN to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A MEASURE OF FAITH. …” (Romans 12:3, NKJV)

Comment: The phrase “… as GOD HAS DEALT TO EACH ONE A MEASURE OF FAITH. …” in the above itself proves that ‘Christianity will have differences In Doctrine where we could get some parts right others wrong or vice versa’ but yet CAN BE SAVED (room for error is there). If there is “no” rooms for Doctrinal Errors, then there wouldn’t be a “measure” of “faith” but “equal” measure of “faith” to all which is NOT what’s Written here. So, regarding ‘who is right doctrinally, let God Decide One Day and Reward accordingly’.

 

We use the “Shepherd of Hermas” Writing because in the last section prior, we already showed that St. Athanasius the Great himself proves it as “True” in the Context of “GREATER ACCURACY” in ‘his own words’. So this could be a Doctrinal “Possibility” since we are not sure 100%. Please bear in mind that this Shepherd of Hermas was considered Scripture by many Champions of Faith in early Christianity even as discussed say in Pages 61 to 63 in the free #EternalhellAnnihilationandUniversalismBook while in Pages 64 to 68 the NON-ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY is DICUSSED to INCLUDE EVEN THE UNBAPTIZED Persons (that’s why this must be a NON-ELECT SALVATION if True) as it is PLACED OUTSIDE the TOWER (which is the CHURCH). Example quotes:

 

1. a) Shepherd of Hermas was considered Scripture by these First Christianity Greats of Faith

 

Shepherd of Hermas which was considered Scripture-Level in First Christianity by even St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Hearer/Disciple of St. Polycarp an apostolic father being the direct disciple of Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation) , Tertullian (father of Latin Christianity), Pope Callixtus I (Head of the entire Roman Catholic Church in his time in First Christianity), St. Clement of Alexandria (head of the Cathecatical School of Alexandria) and even the First Bibles of Christianity (the Muratorian or Roman Canon in the West & the Codex Claromontanus Canon in the East) while Eusebius (father of Church History) and St. Athanasius the Great (father of orthodoxy & Champion of Trinity) approved of its use for catechumens

Please be careful of some Protestant attitude to simply claim some very rough language against the ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book because if on Judgment Day it turns out to be “Scripture”, condemning any Scripture could be liable to the “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” which has “no” forgiveness either in this age nor in the age to come:

“… Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:32, NKJV)

 

1. b) Shepherd of Hermas non-Elect Salvation Quotes

 

“… “Now the other stones which you saw cast far away from the tower, and falling upon the public road and rolling from it into pathless places, are those who have indeed believed, but through doubt have abandoned the true road. Thinking, then, that they could find a better, they wander and become wretched, and enter upon pathless places. But those which fell into the fire and were burned? are those who have departed for ever from the living God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed. Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [of Repentance*] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

The part in quote above which proves non-Elect salvation Outside the “Tower = Church” here: “… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS.  …”.

 

1. c) How do we know that the Context of “Tower” here Parabolically refers to the “Tower of Repentance”? It’s Described earlier as follows ‘Tower [of Repentance]’ = ‘the Church’ = ‘the Elect Salvation’ so the Salvation described earlier must be a ‘Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER (Church) in ANOTHER PLACE MUCH MORE INFERIOR, hence NON-ELECT SALVATION’ if these are read ‘as it is Written’ here and ‘Compared’, to quote:

 

“…  “Many indeed shall hear, and hearing, some shall be glad, and some shall weep. But even these, if they hear and repent, shall also rejoice. Hear, then, the PARABLES of the TOWER; for I will reveal all to you, and give me no more trouble in regard to revelation: for these revelations have an end, for they have been completed. But you will not cease praying for revelations, for you are shameless. The TOWER which you see building is myself, THE CHURCH, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion. Ask, then, whatever you like in regard to the tower, and I will reveal it to you, that you may rejoice with the saints.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter III, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

1. ii) Born Again Bible Verses

 

“… 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” …” (John 3:3 – 6, NKJV)

 

iii) Shepherd of Hermas Born Again Quotes

 

“… 13[90]:5 “Listen,” saith he. “The name of the Son of God is great and incomprehensible, and sustaineth the whole world. If then all creation is sustained by the Son [of God], what thinkest thou of those that are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk according to His commandments? 13[90]:6 Seest thou then what manner of men He sustaineth? Even those that bear His name with their whole heart. He Himself then is become their foundation, and He sustaineth them gladly, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.” 15[92]:1 “Declare to me, Sir,” say I, “the names of the virgins, and of the women that are clothed in the black garments.” “Hear,” saith he, “the names of the more powerful virgins, those that are stationed at the corners. 15[92]:2 The first is Faith, and the second, Continence, and the third, Power, and the fourth, Long-suffering. But the others stationed between them have these names–Simplicity, Guilelessness, Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding, Concord, Love. He that beareth these names and the name of the Son of God shall be able to enter into the kingdom of God. 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall see the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.” …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, Chapter 13 to 15, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

 

Or

 

“CHAPTER XIV … Listen,” he said: “the name of the Son of God is great, and cannot be contained, and supports the whole world. If, then, the whole creation is supported by the Son of God, what think ye of those who are called by Him, and bear the name of the Son of God, and walk in His commandments? do you see what kind of persons He supports? Those who bear His name with their whole heart. He Himself, accordingly, became a foundation to them, and supports them with joy, because they are not ashamed to bear His name.”  CHAPTER XV.  “Explain to me, sir,” I said, “the names of these virgins, and of those women who were clothed in black raiment.” “Hear,” he said, “the names of the stronger virgins who stood at the comers. The first is Faith, the second Continence, the third Power, the fourth Patience. And the others standing in the midst of these have the following names: Simplicity, Innocence, Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding, Harmony, Love. He who bears these names and that of the Son of God will be able to enter into the kingdom of God. Hear, also,” he continued, “the names of the women who had the black garments; and of these four are stronger than the rest. The first is Unbelief, the second: Incontinence, the third Disobedience, the fourth Deceit. And their followers are called Sorrow, Wickedness, Wantonness, Anger, Falsehood, Folly, Backbiting, Hatred. The servant of God who bears these names shall see, indeed, the kingdom of God, but shall not enter into it.” “And the stones, sir,” I said, “which were taken out of the pit and fitted into the building: what are they?” “The first,” he said, “the ten, viz, that were placed as a foundation, are the first generation, and the twenty-five the second generation, of righteous men; and the thirty-five are the prophets of God and His ministers; and the forty are the apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.” “Why, then, sir,” I asked, “did the virgins carry these stones also through the gate, and give them for the building of the tower?” “Because,” he answered, “these were the first who bore these spirits, and they never departed from each other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits remained with them until their falling asleep. And unless they had had these spirits with them, they would not have been of use for the building of this tower.” …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, Chapter 13 to 15, Mr. Donaldson’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

1. iv) SEE His Kingdom – POSSIBLE MEANING

 

 

 

“… Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. …” (John 3:3, NASB)

 

“… 15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall SEE the kingdom of God, …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Parable 9, 15[92]:3, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

 

 

So, SEEing His Kingdom is ONLY for those being BORN AGAIN (John 3:3). The Shepherd of Hermas implies that the WICKED [FALLEN CHRISTIAN or ‘Servants of God’ who WORE THESE BLACK GARMENTS of sin] will SEE His Kingdom and hence MUST be BORN AGAIN too and be “Saved” as per the NON-ELECT Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER most likely (as per quote i) earlier) if “these Verses are compared as it is Written”.

 

Notice that the Shepherd of Hermas clearly mentions that these can SEE the KINGDOM (being BORN AGAIN) but CANNOT ENTER IT implying a SALVATION OUTSIDE the TOWER (Kingdom of God) even if SAVED.

 

This is Possible based on Verses below where being BORN AGAIN (Romans 8:20 – 21) where this aspect of the Sons of God, (His Elect – Romans 8:19) is SHARED by ALL CREATION eventually (Romans 8:22):

 

 

“… 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. …” (Romans 8:19 – 22, NKJV)

 

All Creation (Romans 8:22) —> will be BORN AGAIN (as the Greek Word in Romans 8:22 refers to ‘Birth Pangs’ Implying this, and has the Word ALL in front of ‘Creation’) —> in the Aspect of ‘liberty from Vanity or Decay, the corruption of sin’ causing ‘sin to cease to exist eventually’ as it is mentioned first in Immediate Consecutive Verses (Romans 8:20 – 21) —> where we, the ‘believers in faith’ (of ‘church’) are ‘more special’ inheriting more than just that (as the Verse earlier in Romans 8:19 describes the ‘rest of creation’ awaiting this).

 

In comparison, those who enter the Kingdom of God (Christians) must be BORN BOTH OF WATER and SPIRIT (Keep Repentance and His Commands).

 

1. V) This NON-ELECT Salvation OUTSIDE the TOWER includes even the UNBAPTIZED who SINNED LIKEWISE and so in light of the SAME PORTION with UNBELIEVERS for FALLEN CHRISTIANS, this NON-ELECT Salvation TYPE may be POSSIBLE for such too:

 

“… THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER  THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

“… 45But IF THAT SERVANT SAYS in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and WILL CUT HIM IN TWO AND APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. 47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone TO WHOM MUCH IS GIVEN, FROM HIM MUCH WILL BE REQUIRED; and TO WHOM MUCH HAS BEEN COMMITTED, OF HIM THEY WILL ASK THE MORE.  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:45 – 48, NKJV)

 

Conclusion

It is certainly “Possible” for such Worst Case Scenarios even and so Let God Decide One Day and I just present it as a “Possibility” only for this “Non-Elect Salvation” for both the sinning Fallen Christian and sinning unbelievers’ same portion of Judgment likewise and whatever God Decides One Day, we accept it.

 

 

Peace to you

 

Thank You!