Question
Aren’t Church tithes mandatory and good since these are collected to take care of orphans & widows?
Reply
Church tithes are usually used for salaries and ‘admin costs’. The pastors I know have testified to this and this is reflected often in their own ‘transparent church budget breakdown’ too (published in their church newsletters after their annual budget – please check it out for yourselves).
Jewish tithes are used for taking care of orphans and widows, yes.
Even then, it does not justify tithing for “Gentile believers” (Acts 21:25). Tithing in the Gospels (Context) is only toward Jews where the Mosaic Law may still apply to them (Principle of Acts 21:24).
Christ never taught Tithing to a Gentile believer and the apostolic New Testament Writing only applied to Gentile believers after His Resurrection and post-Pentecost Day (Matthew 28:20, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4).
The “Gospel Writing” (Context) thus refers to ‘Israel only’ (Matthew 15:24) and so we can only understand ‘how these applies to Gentile believers’ via post-Resurrection Events (e. g. Acts of the Apostles and Apostle Paul’s Writings).
Yes, in the same breath, He said “without leaving the others undone” which includes ‘not eating pork too’ (Luke 11:42, Matthew 23:23). To understand the New Testament context, we must refer to apostle Paul’s Writings only as he is chosen of God as the apostle of the Gentiles. Apostle Paul taught giving ‘as one purposes in the heart for Gentile believers’ (2 Corinthians 9:7) but NO tithing.
One can give to church and charity without tithing.
Best is this: Earliest Church History (before 500AD) does NOT have any “Sabbath” (Colossians 2:16) or “Tithing” practice at all (in Principle of Acts 15 too).
Early Christians gathered willingly on a Sunday (“first day of the week”, not a Sabbath which is a Saturday, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Acts 20:7). Apostle Paul was known to spend his time in the Synagogues on Sabbath day to reason with the Jews (please note that apostle Paul was not gathering with Christians on this Sabbath Day, right? “Proper Biblical Context” as ‘it is Written’ – NO adding/removing from Holy Scripture, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4)
How can the ‘modern church’ suddenly invent a doctrine that did NOT exist in the entire Church History before 500 AD?, yes it’s NOT even found among the Catholics. In fact, I have never heard of the ‘tithing doctrine’ in church history till the 20th century, right?
The earliest known ‘tithing doctrine-attempt’ comes from after 500AD, to quote:
“…it was taught by the Council of Tours in A.D. 567, and in the Council of Macon in A.D. 585, a penalty of excommunication was prescribed for those who did not adhere to this ecclesiastical law”
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe
It’s NOT an official doctrine by the Catholic Church even though these councils seeked to enforce it.
Please show me the ‘first’ historical evidence (‘earliest’) of “Christian Tithing” (not ‘Jewish Judaism tithing’) which was accepted especially by the Eastern or Catholic Churches as an “official doctrine” before 500 AD?
It does NOT exist.
‘Truth is Old, Heresies are young’.
Old Testament Verses about tithing and Sabbaths refers to “Jews only” and if the earliest Gentile church never understood it to refer to them, we should not either (in Principle of Acts 21:25 too).
As Gentile believers one is only required to keep the “Commands of the Lord” as any of apostle Paul’s Inspired Writings mean that to get rewards respectively (1 Corinthians 14:37).
So, let’s not waste our time obeying things that are NOT commanded toward us (respecting the decision which even the Holy Spirit of God has approved to be “Good” – with NO further burden to be added to it – Acts 15:28) and obey the things which are actually Commanded toward us, Gentile believers (1 Corinthians 4:37) lest we put “God” to the “Test” by doing “otherwise – knowingly or unknowingly” (Acts 15:10).
‘As Gentile Believers, let’s NOT pretend to be a Jewish Believer, something we are not’
Earthly distinctions of Jewish vs Gentile believers exist (example of proof: Acts 21:24 – 25, Acts 15) but these distinctions vanish after we become “sons of God” in His Glorious Kingdom after fulfilling His Will (Galatians 3:28 – 29).
Please note carefully that the “Promise” of “Abraham” as we become “Sons of God” (Galatians 3:28) has NOTHING to do on anything received on earth (Context: Galatians 3:29 with Hebrews 11:39).
Please remember that Colossians 3:11 was Written with Colossians 2:16 too where for example the “Jewish believers can keep the Sabbath & refrain from eating pork” (implied in Acts 21:24) while “Gentile believers need not keep the Sabbath and may eat pork” (Acts 21:25, Colossians 2:16) proving that the ‘earthly distinctions’ still hold as these examples include “apostle Paul” himself (‘Irrefutable Context’).
The end doesn’t justify the means because we have a Law, God’s Law in apostle Paul’s Inspired Writings which applies to ‘any Gentile believer’ (1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, apostle Paul clearly WARNED Gentile believers to ‘do God’s Ministry in accordance to New Testament Rules in 2 Timothy 2:5’ for the best rewards (implied). Can you see it? Let’s be “Wise”.
Conclusion
My loyalty is to Lord Jesus Christ via New Testament Verses which is concreted through understanding Earliest Church History too.
“Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” – apostle Paul (2 Timothy 2:5, NASB)
‘You cannot take sides if you wish to speak the Truth’
Peace to you
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Sabbath, Food and Drinks – Optional
Question
Did Earliest Christianity observe the Sabbath?
Reply
Jewish believers observed the Sabbath, for example the sect of the “Nazaranes”.
Gentile believers did NOT observe the Sabbath at all. This Fact is testified by the earliest Church Leaders themselves (who I believe did NOT go to Hell for teaching this and they could NOT have erred in this as NONE of them as ‘Gentile believers’ observed the Sabbaths), to quote:
1) Church History
The writings of the early Christians make it clear that Christians abandoned the Jewish custom of worship on the Sabbath (seventh day) and instead held the first day, which they called the Lord’s Day, to be the sacred day of worship. One of the simplest explanations on the subject comes from Tertullian, around 200 AD:
But why is it, you ask, that we gather on the Lord’s Day to celebrate our solemnities? Because that was the way the Apostles also did.
— De Fuga in Persecutione, XIV: 11
This was not an innovation of the second century AD, as a full century earlier, (101 AD,) we find Ignatius saying:
Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day on which our life was sprung by him and his death.
— Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9
And just in case there is any confusion as to the identity of the Lord’s Day, we can turn to Justin Martyr. (140 AD)
And on the day which is called Sunday there is an assembly in the same place of all who live in cities or in country districts; and the records of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read as long as we have time.
…Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.
— Apologies 1:67
And again from Justin Martyr, we see that Christians did not keep the Jewish holy days:
We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days.
— Apologies Sec. 21
So yes, it’s clear from the historical record that the first-century Christians, such as Ignatius, had organized worship meetings on the Lord’s Day (Sunday), and that they did not consider observance of the Jewish Sabbath important, it having been fulfilled by Christ with the rest of the Law of Moses.
2) New Testament Bible Verses for Sabbaths toward Gentile Believers (‘Context’)
“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–” (Colossians 2:16, NASB)
“One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5, NASB)
Colossians 2:16 mentions that in regards to “food, drinks and Sabbaths (sacred days)” —> a ‘Gentile believer’ cannot be judged for it —> meaning that it can be observed either way —> a personal decision regarding these three topics “only” (NO adding/removing from His Word) —-> as Romans 14 describes in detail as well, for example the phrase “let each be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5) —-> which refers to the ‘opposite options’ of —–> either observing a Sacred Day such as the “Sabbath or Passover” or “NOT observing it by viewing all days are alike” —–> where Romans 14:5 confirms that both are doing it “for the Lord”.
The Bible is clear in regards to this and the danger is toward anyone enforcing their ‘choice’ as doctrine either way as Colossians 2:16 WARNS against Judging other believers in regards to this.
Please be careful lest your own Sabbath observance becomes ‘disqualified’ if you start ‘judging others who don’t do it’ against Colossians 2:16 as God has accepted both in regards to a ‘Gentile believer’s (“Context”, Romans 14:5).
3) Sabbath Day vs the First Day of the Week
The Sabbath Day (Saturday) is different from the First Day of the Week (Sunday) where earliest Christians gathered “willingly” (and NOT as a religious rite as it is recorded in the Book of Acts too). Let’s not be confused.
This is discussed further in the earlier part of post below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/tithing-and-sabbaths-for-gentile-believers/
More Details?
iii) Sabbath and Pork Dilemma for Gentile Believers
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/sabbath-and-pork-dilemma-for-gentile-believers/
4) Sabbath Observance – Do you actually observe it?
Do you actually know what it means when you claim that you “observe the Sabbath” as it is Commanded in the 10 Commandments according to the Old Testament Laws?
“Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6, NASB)
Please consider this brief list and please “think” before you dare claim any ‘actual observance’ of it.
(a) To quote a Basic Do and Don’ts on a Sabbath Day
When reading God’s word regarding the Sabbath, there appears to be a great deal of specifics concerning what He desires of His people regarding their conduct on this day. One might even call His instructions a list of “do’s and don’ts.” The following are just a few examples:
Don’t work (Ex. 20: 8, Dt. 5:13-4))
Don’t compel servants to labor on your behalf (Ex. 20:10, Dt. 5:14-5)
Don’t compel strangers to labor on your behalf. (Ex. 20:10, Dt. 5:14-5)
Don’t compel your livestock to labor (Dt. 5:14)
Don’t compel your family to labor (Ex. 20:10, Dt. 5:14-5)
Don’t prepare meals (Ex. 16:23-5)
Don’t go outside your place (Ex. 16:29)
Don’t gather your daily food (Ex. 16:22-3)
Don’t engage in business (Neh.10:31, 13:15-21)
Don’t do your own pleasure (Isa. 58:13)
Don’t speak your own words (Isa. 58:13)
Don’t think your own thoughts (Isa. 58:13)
Do assemble with God’s people (Lev. 23:1-3)
Do call the Sabbath a delight (Isa. 58:13)
Do call it honorable and holy (Isa. 58:13)
Source: https://blowthetrumpet.org/TheSabbathDosandDonts.htm
Let’s start with some basic activities from which we refrain on Shabbat:
writing, erasing, and tearing;
business transactions;
driving or riding in cars or other vehicles;
shopping;
using the telephone;
turning on or off anything which uses electricity, including lights, radios, television, computer, air-conditioners and alarm clocks;
cooking, baking or kindling a fire;
gardening and grass-mowing;
doing laundry;
The 39 Melachot
There are thirty-nine general categories of labor that are forbidden on Shabbat. Each of these categories include a range of derivative laws and activities, some of which are described in “The Shabbat Laws.” The melachot are generally divided into six groups, classified according to the Mishkan’s activities with which they are associated.
Field Work
Sowing
Plowing
Reaping
Binding Sheaves
Threshing
Winnowing
Selecting
Grinding
Sifting
Kneading
Baking
Making Material Curtains
Shearing Wool
Cleaning
Combing
Dyeing
Spinning
Stretching the Threads
Making Loops
Weaving Threads
Separating the Threads
Tying a Knot
Untying a Knot
Sewing
Tearing
Making Leather Curtains
Trapping
Slaughtering
Skinning
Tanning
Smoothing
Ruling Lines
Cutting
Making the Beams of the Mishkan
Writing
Erasing
The Putting up and Taking down of the Mishkan
Building
Breaking Down
The Mishkan’s Final Touches
Extinguishing a Fire
Kindling a Fire
Striking the Final Hammer Blow
Carrying
Source: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/484170/jewish/Shabbat-Rest.htm
Why did I quote a well known Jewish Website?
Well, you cannot be observing Sabbaths differently from the Jews , right?
There is NO change in Sabbath Related Laws (where are your New Testament Verses if this was so?) – Can you see it? Are you ‘really’ observing the Sabbath in light of all these?
Let’s NOT pretend to be something we are NOT as Gentile Believers.
5) More Earliest Church History agreeing to this Exegesis?
To quote:
The early Christian Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. did not consider the Sabbath day to be a day all Christians were obligated to observe. They gave a different testimony. While the following epistles and statements are not in Scripture and should therefore not be considered canonical, they help to provide useful historical information regarding prevalent beliefs of the early Church in its first centuries.
Ignatius was bishop of Antioch in Syria (c. 1st-2nd century A.D.) and martyred in Rome by beasts (c. 105-116 A.D.). On his way to Rome, he visited and wrote to various churches, warning and exhorting them. He also wrote ahead to Rome to Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna. Ignatius warned the Church against heresies that threatened peace and unity, he opposed Gnosticism and Docetism, and in his Epistle to Smyrna, insisted that Christ came in the flesh not just in spirit.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.)
“Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which “every tongue” believed and “was brought together” to God.” (10)
The Epistle of Barnabas was probably not authored by the Barnabas of the New Testament. The writer repudiates the claims of Jewish Christians at the time who advocated adhering to observance of the Mosiac Law. He also argued that Christ provided salvation and man is no longer bound by the Law. This letter compares holy life to unrighteousness.
Epistle of Barnabas 2:4-6 (c. 130 A.D.)
“For He has made it clear to us through all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices nor whole burnt offerings nor general offerings, saying on one occasion: ‘What is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?’ says the Lord. ‘I am full of whole burnt offerings, and I do not want the fat of lambs and blood of bulls and goats, not even if you come to appear before Me. For who demanded these things from your hands? Do not continue to trample My court. If you bring fine flour, it is in vain; incense is detestable to Me; your new moons and sabbaths I cannot stand.’ Therefore He has abolished these things, in order that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is free from the yoke of compulsion, might have its offering, one not made by man.”
Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9 (c. 130 A.D.)
“Finally, He says to them: ‘I cannot bear your new moons and sabbaths.’ You see what He means: it is not the present sabbaths that are acceptable to Me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath, after I have set everything at rest, I will create the beginning of an eighth day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven.”
The Didache or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles was an 11th century manuscript discovered by Philotheus Bryennois. It consists of various parts, starting with the Two Ways ethical instruction and including community rules for liturgical practices and leadership conduct, before ending with a short apocalyptic section. While some of the material might go back before the year 100 A.D., the current form of the document probably dates to the mid-second century at the earliest.
The Didache (or The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) 14:1 (c. 70 A.D.)
“On the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.” (12)
The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus (c. 260-339 A.D.) is probably one of the most important works on early Church history available, covering the events of its first three centuries. As one born during the early Church period, Eusebius was an able historian who had a close view of the events that helped shape the historical and theological developments of the early Church.
Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 (c. 315 A.D.)
“For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, neither do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians.” (13)
Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 27 (c. 315 A.D.)
“The Ebionites cherished low and mean opinions of Christ. For they considered Him a plain and common man, and justified only by His advances in virtue, and that He was born of the Virgin Mary, by natural generation. With them the observance of the law was altogether necessary, as if they could not be saved, only by faith in Christ and a corresponding life. These, indeed, thought on the one hand that all of the epistles of the apostles ought to be rejected, calling him an apostate from the law, but on the other, only using the gospel according to the Hebrews, they esteem the others as of little value. They also observe the Sabbath and other discipline of the Jews, just like them, but on the other hand, they also celebrate the Lords days very much like us, in commemoration of His resurrection.” (14)
Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, Chapter 23 (c. 315 A.D.)
“The churches throughout the rest of the world observe the practice that has prevailed from apostolic tradition until the present time, so that it would not be proper to terminate our fast on any other but the day of the resurrection of our Savior. Hence there were synods and convocations of the bishops on this question; and all unanimously drew up the ecclesiastical decree, which they communicated to all the churches in all places, that the mystery of our Lords resurrection should be celebrated on no other day than the Lords day.” (15)
Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (c. 178 A.D.)
“The duty of celebrating the mystery of the resurrection of our Lord may be done only on the day of the Lord.” (16)
Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) lived during the reign of Antonius Pius and suffered martyrdom in 165 A.D. during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. He was an enthusiastic evangelist of the Gospel, and after traveling widely throughout the Roman Empire settled in Rome as a Christian teacher. While there, neighboring philosophers plotted against him because of his Christian profession, brought him up before the Roman authorities, who carried out his execution by beheading him.
The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 67
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things … But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.” (17)
Some Christians would say that these epistles and statements are unreliable and reflect a general apostasy that was going on in the Church at the time. But this is the Church of which Christ said “the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.” Also, the men who wrote letters such as these to the early Christians were the type of people of whom were spoken in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11:35-40.
Many early Church leaders and followers of Christ such as Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin Martyr, to name a few, suffered severe persecution and eventual martyrdom at the hands of the Romans for spreading the Gospel of Christ. But to keep to the main point, Sabbath-keeping was not a requirement in those days for all Christians, nor was it generally observed. And this was going on long before Constantine the Great enacted his civil Sunday law.
Source: http://www.ukapologetics.net/early.htm
Conclusion
NEITHER the Bible Verses NOR the Earliest Church History proves anything from your ‘modern exegesis’. In fact, it DISPROVES it.
Peace to you
P/S: An Important question to consider in your theology
If Lord Jesus Christ were to listen to your sermon in regards to this Topic of Sabbath, in light of all these “Verses” and “Earliest Church History”, would you be considered a ‘Truth Speaker’ or a ‘liar’?
Let’s be “careful” to preach accurately based on what’s Written in Holy Scripture only and find an Earliest Church History which did the same simply because it does NOT make sense “otherwise”.
Question
Isn’t Sabbath an Eternal Law?
Reply
The main problem of such a reasoning is that it is NON existent in earliest Church History.
Secondly, Colossians 2:16 settles the Sabbath part. Colossians 2:16 touches the same three Topics (Food, Drink, Sacred Day) as Romans 14 connecting the Two. The Sacred Day in or Special Day in Romans 14 is religious festivals and Sabbaths as there are NO other days. Apostle Paul himself must be speaking of Jewish ‘special days’ as surely he cannot refer to ‘non Scriptural days at all’ which is of NO point in discussing these.
Since Sabbath is an option (Colossians 2:16 with Romans 14:5), you may observe it. I have nothing against that if ‘you are fully convinced in your own mind’ as Scripture allows that.
How about Christ and the apostles observing the Sabbath?
They were all ‘Jewish Believers’ (Acts 21:24) and thus can observe the Sabbath as opposed to Gentile believers (Acts 21:25). Please refer to Acts 15 too for a distinction in observation between Jewish believers vs Gentile believers in regards to the Law of Moses.
Sabbath – In the Old Earth and New Earth
Question
Isn’t Sabbath an Eternal Law?
Reply
The main problem of such a reasoning is that it is NON existent in earliest Church History.
Secondly, Colossians 2:16 settles the Sabbath part. Colossians 2:16 touches the same three Topics (Food, Drink, Sacred Day) as Romans 14 connecting the Two. The Sacred Day in or Special Day in Romans 14 is religious festivals and Sabbaths as there are NO other days. Apostle Paul himself must be speaking of Jewish ‘special days’ as surely he cannot refer to ‘non Scriptural days at all’ which is of NO point in discussing these.
Since Sabbath is an option (Colossians 2:16 with Romans 14:5), you may observe it. I have nothing against that if ‘you are fully convinced in your own mind’ as Scripture allows that.
How about Christ and the apostles observing the Sabbath?
They were all ‘Jewish Believers’ (Acts 21:24) and thus can observe the Sabbath as opposed to Gentile believers (Acts 21:25). Please refer to Acts 15 too for a distinction in observation between Jewish believers vs Gentile believers in regards to the Law of Moses.
Isn’t Ephesians 6:1 not part of the ‘three things’ only (Acts 15:29) but also a part of the Law of Moses?
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.” (Ephesians 6:1, NASB)
Only those three parts apply to the Gentile believers as Acts 15:29 mentions and NOT the other parts of the Law of Moses. The other 9 of the 10 Commandments can be seen in apostle Paul’s and rest of the New Testament Writings as well (that’s how we know that the Gentiles must obey the other 9 of the 10 Commandments).
Whatever apostle Paul quotes to WRITE becomes applicable to any Gentile believer as the ‘Commands of the Lord’ (as 1 Corinthians 14:37 implies this irrefutably). So, Ephesians 6:1 is an example of that and that’s what it means for him to be an ‘apostle of the Gentiles’.
To Prove Sabbath observance or ‘not eating pork’ for example, you must provide a Verse which apostle Paul wrote (to prove a Context to a Gentile Believer). This is ‘how exegesis is done rightly’ with ‘authority given to apostle Paul by the Blessed Lord Himself’ toward ‘Gentile believers’ in 1 Corinthians 14:37 and implied in 1 Corinthians 1:10 too as to ‘speak the SAME thing’.
Isn’t the Word, the “Torah”?
The Word is Lord Jesus Christ Who became FLESH (John 1:1, 14) and NOT the “Torah” which is only a ‘shadow’ where the ACTUAL is CHRIST (Hebrews 10:1) as the Verse below clears this Well known Fallacy in Christ’s Own Blessed Words:
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:39, NASB)
How about this Verse: “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Matthew 5:18 brother, heaven and earth have not disappeared.
You know that it includes ‘not eating pork’ right? Also that ‘one must be circumcised’ right?
Each of it NOT applying to a Gentile believer. How come?
Because the Context of Matthew 5:18 is Israel and Christ Who Fulfills it (the ‘Gentile Context’ does NOT exist as Christ was sent to the Lost Sheep of Israel only during that time). The Gentile context applies as how the ‘apostle of the Gentiles’, apostle Paul was Inspired to Reveal in the rest of the New Testament Verses. Till the ‘OLD heaven and Earth passes away part’ is explained next. Yes, Apostle Paul never taught the Gentile believers to keep the Torah beyond the 3 things from the Custom of Moses (Acts 15:29) and 9 of the 10 Commandments excluding the Sabbath (as this can be seen throughout New Testament Writings addressed to the Gentiles as well). So, they need to honour this part which pertains to them.
How about this Verse: “From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.” What Sabbath was Isaiah prophesying about (Isaiah 66:23)?
That refers to a Glorious Prophecy when the ACTUAL Meaning of the Sabbath is Fulfilled in that ALL MANKIND is SAVED and Will come to Worship Him (the ‘True Rest Promised to All Mankind’ Isaiah 66:23 with Psalm 22:29 too, which I believe to be somewhere in AGE3, since the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this Current age, AGE1 nor in the coming (next) age, AGE2 – Matthew 12:32 and there are ‘ages which are coming’ (AGE2, AGE3…) – Ephesians 2:7). It has nothing to do with the earthly Sabbath observance as the ‘earthly one’ (Colossians 2:16) is ‘just a shadow of it’ (as apostle Paul refers to it in Colossians 2:17).
All Mankind Will Worship God together when that Happens under the ‘New Heavens and Earth’ and NOT the Current ‘Old heavens and Earth’ Which do NOT last beyond this end of this current AGE1 (Context: Old Heaven and Earth -Revelation 20:4 – 11, 2 Peter 3:10, New Heavens and Earth – Revelation 21:1, 2 Peter 3:13, Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22).
Please notice that the Sabbath Observance during the NEW Heavens and the Earth (Isaiah 66:23 must refer to this) is during a Time when there shall be NO MORE SEA (implied from Revelation 21:1) and thus CANNOT refer to the current ‘earthly Sabbath’ observance even during the 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which is all still with the ‘OLD Heavens and Earth’ which only ‘fled away’ (ends) after the 1000 years are finished (Revelation 20:11) and the Great White Throne of Judgment comes next (agreeing to the order in Revelation 21:1 too).
Sabbath – Deep Meaning
The Deepest Meaning of the Sabbath is Universal Salvation for All Men eventually in Lord Jesus Christ (Isaiah 66:22 – 23).
Yes, the context of the Definition of these ‘ages’ AGE1, AGE2, AGE3 implies the Truth of AION/AIONIOS to mean “age only” when analyzed from this Context of Sabbath too which also at the same time Confirms Universal Salvation in Lord Jesus Christ when viewed in this Way as Explained in the post below (later part):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/tithing-and-sabbaths-for-gentile-believers/
How about Isaiah 66:24 and the ‘unquenchable fire’ (Context of Consecutive Verses, in Isaiah 66:22 – 24)?
Their ‘lifeless dead bodies or corpses’ (Isaiah 66:24) contains NO SOUL (Matthew 10:28) and these DEAD BODIES continue to BURN to the ages (Revelation 14:11) as an abhorrence to ALL Flesh referring to ALL Mankind ever created (including these punished ones too in Principle of Ezekiel 36:31, Ezekiel 20:43) sometime during AGE3 onward when ALL MEN will be SAVED by then as Prophesied in Holy Scripture (1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, Titus 2:11) where ‘believers are more special for Trusting Him first’ (1 Timothy 4:10).
More Details? Please consider the Write-up below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Can you see it now ‘as it is Written’?
Peace to you
Sabbath – How are there days if there’s no more sun or night?
That’s inside the New Jerusalem in Heaven which descends to the New Earth where there is NO more sun NOR night there (Revelation 21:2, Revelation 21:23) which has NO Temple too (Revelation 21:22).
Sabbath, observed on the new earth (Revelation 21:1) which has a new moon (Isaiah 66:22 – 24) which can be understood when these Verses are taken together and it refers to three different locations (new Heaven vs new Earth vs the holy city, the New Jerusalem – though there may be overlaps).
The Lamb Will be its Light (no sun) and the Moon on earth signifies the Sabbath Times (Isaiah 66:22 – 24) which can exist without a night.
Please also note carefully that “day and night” exists outside the Holy New Jerusalem to the ‘ages of Ages’ (Revelation 20:10) proving that the “day & night” can exist “without the sun” (Revelation 21:23, Revelation 22:5).
Can you see it?
Ransom for Few, Many or All?
In our exegesis,
(i) The word ‘few’ means ‘few’
The “few” refers those who enter His Kingdom during His Marriage or become His Bride (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 25:1 – 13) to be part of the “First Resurrection” (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which is NOT EVERYONE (Context of Consecutive Verses in Matthew 7:21 – 23). Please note ‘carefully’ that Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:12 have the similar phraseology ‘I never knew you’ (linking these two – ‘Context’) tying this up to the Timeline of His Return on His White Horse for Marriage with His Bride apart from Destroying the antichrist (Revelation 19).
(ii) The word ‘many’ means ‘many’ and the word ‘all’ means ‘all’
Question
Is Christ’s Ransom for Many or All?
Reply
Let’s consider the Verses first:
1) Ransom for Many – Verses
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:45, NASB)
“just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28, NASB)
“for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:28, NASB)
“so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.” (Hebrews 9:28, NASB)
2) Ransom for All
“who did give himself a ransom for all — the testimony in its own times –” (1 Timothy 2:6, YLT)
3) His Ransom for Many or All?
Explanation:
Let’s consider these set of Verses:
“Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.” (Hebrews 9:26 – 28, NASB)
What do these Verses mean?
(i) Christ’s Ransom toward the “Many”
Firstly, who are “the Many” referred to in each of the quoted Verses?
“the many” = “those who eagerly await Him” as Hebrews 9:28 reveals.
Christ’s Ransom toward the “sins of Many” is toward “those who eagerly await Him” where these will obtain “salvation without reference to sin” as Hebrews 9:28 above clearly mentions this case agreeing to the Verse below too Perfectly:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal [age-during] life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:24, NASB)
Please note that
The “salvation without reference to sin” (in Hebrews 9:28) = “does not come into [afterlife] judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (in John 5:24)
[Emphasis Mine]
(ii) How about “the rest” who are NOT part of “the many” or “those who eagerly await Him”?
Christ’s Ransom for All applies in its own Divine-Kairois (Plural) Times (1 Timothy 2:6) which is not necessarily during the ‘His Second Coming’ (a singular-time) only and it is ONLY AFTER “afterlife Judgment” first as the Consecutive Verse in Hebrews 9:27 implies.
In other words, the author of Hebrews is clearly revealing that “Generally all men need to endure afterlife Judgment after they die” (Hebrews 9:27) but “His Ransom” toward the ‘particular’ (special or highlighted) group called “the many” causes these ones to obtain a “salvation without reference to sin” (Hebrews 9:28) or “without any afterlife Judgment” (John 5:24).
But that’s not all the meaning in these Verses as the phrase “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:26) applies in CONTEXT toward “all men who needed to endure afterlife Judgment first after they die” (Hebrews 9:27) but to a particular “many” (believers only) His Ransom applies to them without them having the need to undergo any afterlife Judgment at all (Hebrews 9:28, John 5:24) as the Context of Consecutive Verses Prove Irrefutably.
In other words, His Ransom for ALL (1 Timothy 2:6) is to be understood here as to “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:26) toward the CONTEXT of “all men (or all human beings) who needed to endure afterlife Judgment first after they die” (Hebrews 9:27) but a SPECIAL group amongst these called the “MANY” (consisting of those who eagerly await His Second Coming, hence it refers to ‘believers only’) who do NOT need to undergo any afterlife Judgment at all (Hebrews 9:28, John 5:24) before His Ransom applies to them as the Context of Consecutive Verses Prove Irrefutably (in Hebrews 9:26 – 28).
So, “the rest” of the “ALL Men” must endure afterlife Judgment first (Hebrews 9:27) unlike the ‘special Many’ (or believers), who do NOT endure any afterlife Judgment at all (Hebrews 9:28) before His RANSOM applies to them too (as part of the ‘All’, 1 Timothy 2:6) —> where HIS RANSOM being APPLIED to each of the ALL (i. e. “the many” and “the rest”) in its own Divine-Kairois Times (1 Timothy 2:6) —-> causes the SAME EFFECT namely that, “their sin is put away by the sacrifice of Himself” (as Hebrews 9:26 clearly Defines this CONTEXT or Meaning First).
In the Context of “All men” (the argument holds even if the ALL in 1 Timothy 2:6 refers to “All Creation”, since “All men” would be a ‘subset of this’), and so, we see that:
ALL = “the many” + “the rest”
Or with Verses attached to it,
ALL (1 Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 9:26) = “the many” (Hebrews 9:28, John 5:24) + “the rest” (Hebrews 9:27)
Where, “the many” (Hebrews 9:28) = NO afterlife Judgment toward believers only (John 5:24, Romans 8:19)
“the rest” (Hebrews 9:27) = The ones not part of ‘the many’ (or believers) must generally endure afterlife Judgment first —–> but Mercy Triumphs and ends it later even in the worst afterlife Judgment sentence with no Mercy first (James 2:13)
ALL (Hebrews 9:26) = The sin of ALL is put away by the by the sacrifice of Himself (including the sin of all men, particularly) —-> even the sin of the Whole World too (1 John 2:2) which will eventually cease to exist when taken away fully (John 1:29, Romans 8:20 – 21) in its own Divine-Kairois Times (1 Timothy 2:6, Ephesians 1:9 – 10) and God Will become All in All Creation (1 Corinthians 15:28) causing ALL Creation to be Born Again eventually (Romans 8:22, Mark 16:15).
Truly, God Will Have ALL MEN to be Saved (1 Timothy 2:4 – KJV, implied in Hebrews 9:26 too ‘generally’) though some may have to endure afterlife Judgment first (Hebrews 9:27) but HIS MERCY will Triumph and End any afterlife Judgment Sentence (as Prophetically mentioned in James 2:13) toward ALL too (Romans 11:32) in its “own appointed times” (1 Timothy 2:6) but believers (or ‘the many’ in these Verses) are ‘more special’ (1 Timothy 4:10) for example in the aspect that ‘believers do NOT come under any afterlife Judgment Sentence at all’ (Hebrews 9:28, John 5:24).
When will His Ransom for All take away all Sin of the World till sin ceases to exist from all creation? (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, John 1:29, Romans 8:20 – 22)?
In its own Divine-Kairois Times (1 Timothy 2:6) = “consummation of the ages” (Hebrews 9:26)
Note:
“consummation of the ages” (Hebrews 9:26) = “ends of the ages” (Hebrews 9:26)
More details,
His RANSOM for ALL in its own Divine-Kairois Times (1 Timothy 2:6) = “consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:26)
Truly God is Good and All Glory to Lord Jesus Christ, our Blessed Savior of the World (1 John 4:14)!
In Short, we do NOT change any of the meaning for the words ‘few’, ‘many’ or ‘all’ and strive to Understand it with Other Scripture Speaking of the SAME Topic and Timeline ‘as it is Written’. Shalom.
Wicked – Does Lord Jesus Christ bring Hope to the Goats too?
Question
How about the goats? Aren’t they supposed to be in the Lake of Fire?
Reply
The goats will endure age-during Judgment in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11 – 15, Matthew 25:46) on Judgment Day (Matthew 25:31, Revelation 20:11, 1 Peter 4:5) in their ‘resurrected flesh’ for Judgment (John 5:28 – 29, 1 Peter 4:6 mentions ‘judged in the flesh’ meaning this) —-> but thereafter these will ‘live to God in their spirit-state’ (as 1 Peter 4:6 reveals this Mystery as the Reconciliation from the Lake of Fire as beautifully echoed in Revelation 22:17 too).
These former goats or wicked spirit will be a given a suitable spiritual body thereafter sir (1 Corinthians 15:44) as God Wills (1 Corinthians 15:38) as the Promise of Hope in being “made Alive” due to Lord Jesus Christ’s Work (1 Corinthians 15:21) applies to “all men” (1 Corinthians 15:22) including the wicked too (Acts 24:15).
The Equation for Romans 5:18 – 19 as it is Written is this:
Adam + The Many = All Men
To Quote:
Please also note these two verses below speaking this SAME BIBLICAL TRUTH:
“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN, even so through One Act of Righteousness there Resulted Justification of LIFE to ALL MEN.” (Romans 5:18, NASB)
“For as through the one man’s disobedience THE MANY were made SINNERS, even so through the Obedience of the One THE MANY will be made RIGHTEOUS.” (Romans 5:19, NASB)
The SAME ALL MEN mentioned to be condemned is the SAME ALL MEN mentioned to be eventually Justified to LIFE in Romans 5:18 without any ‘strange manipulations or explanations’.
Similarly, the SAME THE MANY which were made SINNERS is the SAME THE MANY mentioned to be MADE RIGHTEOUS eventually in Romans 5:19 agreeing to all these. The MANY is mentioned here in this verse since ALL MEN were made SINNERS through ADAM (where ADAM + THE MANY = ALL MEN who were made SINNERS).
In fact, ALL MEN condemned is mentioned in Romans 5:18 because it includes ADAM + the REST of MANKIND (the MANY). Lord Jesus Christ is OUT OF THIS EQUATION simply because HE did NOT SIN and is NOT condemned by ADAM’s sin but rather He is mentioned DISTINCTLY as the ONE through WHOM this JUSTIFICATION of LIFE and being MADE RIGHTEOUS will Happen toward ALL MEN (that is, ADAM + the MANY, where THE MANY = the REST of MANKIND excluding ADAM).
In Greek it is ‘the many’ and ‘not many’ which is mentioned in Romans 5:19 meaning that a particular ‘the many’ is referred to here namely that ‘the many’ that were made ‘sinners through Adam’ which is ‘the rest of mankind excluding Adam’, that is:
THE MANY (in Romans 5:19) = ‘the rest of mankind excluding Adam only’
ADAM is singled out since he is the CAUSE of the FALL from whom the CONDEMNATION and SIN is passed on. THE MANY is separately mentioned as part of the ALL MEN as the rest of MANKIND gets imputed with this sin/condemnation automatically as is the JUSTIFICATION of LIFE and the being MADE RIGHTEOUS in CHRIST is also PROMISED to be AUTOMATIC eventually when His Ransom applies in its OWN TIMES being a Testimony (or comes to pass, as 1 Timothy 2:6 reveals).
Source: www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/resurrection-of-the-dead-is-there-hope-for-the-wicked-too/
Conclusion
Please note that ALL FLESH in Verses below refer to ALL HUMAN BEINGS ever created having been MADE ALIVE by Lord Jesus Christ in their respective Resurrected Spiritual Bodies (Bodily Resurrection)
To quote:
Thus in light of all these Scripture we see that the “age-during life” given to “each of the ALL FLESH” mentioned in this Verse (John 17:2) must mean as follows:
(i) Life age-during in AGE1 onward is given to Sheepfold1 in the FLESH of their SINLESS RESURRECTED BODIES.
(ii) Life age-during in AGE2 onward is given to Sheepfold2 in the FLESH of their SINLESS RESURRECTED BODIES.
(iii) Life age-during in AGE3 onward is given to the formerly-Wicked post Lake of Fire Judgment in the FLESH of their SINLESS RESURRECTED BODIES (implied).
P/S: FLESH refers to a RESURRECTED BODY in these Verses (Context of afterlife and Salvation implies this). For example, the infamous Prophecy by Job that he will see God in the FLESH (or Resurrected Body)
“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my FLESH shall I see God:” (Job 19:26, KJV)
ALL Glory to Lord Jesus Christ, the Blessed Saviour of the World!
To Quote again (some details):
Consider also these Verses regarding ALL FLESH PROPHETICALLY Written toward this END [Please note the word ALL FLESH carefully in each Verse]:
“And they shall go forth, and look upon the CARCASSES of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto ALL FLESH.” (Isaiah 66:24, KJV)
“according as Thou didst give to Him authority over ALL FLESH, that — all that Thou hast given to Him — He may give to them life age-during;” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:2, YLT)
“And ALL FLESH shall see the Salvation of God.” (Luke 3:6, KJV)
“And the Glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together: for the Mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 40:5, KJV)
What do these Verses mean?
So these Verses imply that ALL FLESH (in their Respective IMPERISHABLE – SINLESS Resurrected Bodies – 1 Corinthians 15:42, 1 Corinthians 15:50, being Made Alive by Christ eventually in the END, 1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22) —-> will EXPERIENCE God’s Salvation because:
1) CARCASSES ONLY
CARCASSES = Dead Body with NO SOUL and NO SPIRIT (hence NO Conscious Torment remains)
“CARCASSES of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched” (Isaiah 66:24) = Eventually in this Fire that is NOT quenched ONLY the LIFELESS Dead Bodies remain with NO SOUL and NO SPIRIT of any man being DESTROYED because SIN DWELT there (refers to the absolute destruction of the bodies which contained sin).
2) SPIRIT lives to God post Lake of Fire Judgment
What happened to their ‘soul and spirit’?
As Explained prior, in the Lake of Fire which contains the Fires of Gehenna (from Hades, Revelation 20:14) —> causes the Second Death toward the BODY + SOUL only belonging to these WICKED (Matthew 10:28) —> Man is made up of Body + Soul + Spirit distinctly though there may be overlaps (1 Thessalonians 5:23 reveals this distinction) —->so the wicked is Resurrected in a PERISHABLE FLESH first for JUDGMENT in the LAKE of FIRE which is DESTROYED, hence perishable (John 5:28 – 29) —> but their SPIRIT is SAVED because it LIVES to GOD after this Judgment in the Lake of Fire (1 Peter 4:6).
This SPIRIT may be given a SPIRITUAL BODY (1 Corinthians 15:44) as the General Context of the Resurrection of the Dead (1 Corinthians 15:21) applies toward ALL MEN eventually (1 Corinthians 15:49) in their ‘own order (or time, implied in 1 Corinthians 15:23)’ as the HOPE for the Wicked too (Acts 24:15) toward this END for ALL MEN to be MADE ALIVE by CHRIST (1 Corinthians 15:22).
MADE ALIVE by CHRIST (1 Corinthians 15:22) = In an Imperishable Sinless Body (1 Corinthians 15:42, 1 Corinthians 15:50).
Is there Hope beyond the Lake of Fire as Described Earlier? Yes, to quote:
Reconciliation from the Lake of Fire is Prophetically mentioned in the Mysterious Verse below (after their Judgment first in the Lake of Fire, ‘their part’ in Revelation 21:8):
“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” (Revelation 22:17, NASB)
Please note that the ‘Bride’ (His Church, believers) are calling out to the “thirsty” ones (from the ‘lake of Fire’, post Judgment) to be ‘relieved of their thirst’ (as ONLY those being punished in the Lake of Fire can feel thirsty, right?). Believers can never thirst in the afterlife (John 6:35, John 4:14) and thus cannot be the ones referred to in the verse above (Revelation 22:17) especially since ‘all believers of faith’ are His BRIDE (mentioned distinctly in Revelation 22:17).
3) ALL FLESH together = ALL MANKIND in their IMPERISHABLE RESURRECTED BODIES of differing Glory accordingly (1 Corinthians 15:35 – 49)
Hence the quoted Verses referring to ALL FLESH (all men ever created being in their respective resurrected bodies) SEE the SALVATION of God and in Isaiah 66:24 —> some of them also look at their FORMER CARCASS or DEAD BODY in sin being destroyed in the ‘unquenchable Lake of Fire’ —> they ‘loathe their past self in that body’ (because now they are SAVED in an IMPERISHABLE Resurrected Body HATING SIN too) as it is PROPHETICALLY Revealed in Verses above agreeing in PRINCIPLE in Verse below (toward such amongst these):
“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.” (Ezekiel 36:31, NASB)
So, Isaiah 66:24 must refer PROPHETICALLY to somewhere a Time in AGE3 because only then ALL FLESH (All Mankind ever Created are SAVED being Resurrected in an Imperishable Sinless Body too).
Source: www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/salvation-of-all-men-post-afterlife-judgments-must-be-saved/
To Quote (also):
Keys’ are for ‘Unlocking’ Verses:
“I will give you the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you BIND on earth shall have been BOUND in heaven, and whatever you LOOSE on earth shall have been LOOSED in heaven.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:19, NASB)
“and He Who is Living, and I did become Dead, and, lo, I am Living to the ages of the Ages. Amen! and I have the KEYS of the HADES and of the DEATH.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:18,YLT)
The time frame of “ages of the Ages” is highlighted in the above to show that HE will use the KEYS to SAVE from those Bound to HADES and DEATH in the LAKE OF FIRE too (e.g. Revelation 14:11, Revelation 20:10 with Revelation 20:14) – Can you see it? (the phrase ‘ages of Ages’ occurs in some of these Verses quoted connecting these together)
“From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine Eyes.” – God Speaks (in Hosea 13:14, YLT)
Repentance is hid from Mine eyes = God Will NOT Change His Mind from Saving in the afterlife from both SHEOL (HADES) or DEATH as Hosea 13:14 Reveals Majestically even if when these are cast into the LAKE of FIRE for the Final SECOND DEATH (as Revelation 20:14 clearly mentions causing the Mysterious Reconciliation from the Lake of Fire toward these “thirsty ones” as Prophesied Majestically in Revelation 22:17 as well – His Bride and the Spirit calls out to these thirsty ones and only the Lake of Fire makes someone to still be thirsty, right? His Bride or Church, believers are NOT the thirsty ones for we NEVER thirst again after our Resurrection – Isn’t it obvious? Revelation 20:4 – 6, John 4:14, Luke 20:35 – 36).
If the time frame of “ages of Ages” is NOT highlighted in Verse above, God knows that some men will ‘add’ to His Holy Word by Claiming that the KEYS to UNLOCK ‘time period is only in the dispensation of Grace now or other man made limits’ which are all REFUTED by this WRITTEN phrase.
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/afterlife-salvation-mysteries/
Truly, God Alone is both Good (Mark 10:18) and Perfect (Matthew 5:48)!
“You have heard … hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies …” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:43 – 44, BLB)
Please note the phrase “But I say to you” carefully in Verses above which proves that God Will CANCEL every HATE YOUR ENEMY concept(including Judgment) eventually and Replace it with LOVE YOUR ENEMIES and that’s why He Commands us to Demonstrate that on earth itself. The LOVE here is AGAPE = The Highest LOVE of GOD.
Truly:
“But LOVE ye your ENEMIES, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; … HE is KIND unto the UNTHANKFUL and to the EVIL.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:35, KJV)
Amazing Love Indeed!
Here’s a Nice Poem:
“He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!”
So rang Tertullian’s sentence, on the side
Of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried, —
“Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave
Who sins, once washed by the baptismal wave!”
So spake the fierce Tertullian.
But she sighed,The infant church, of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord’s yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eye suffused, but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd’s hasty image drew,
And on His shoulders, not a lamb, a kid.” (by Matthew Arnold)
*A Kid = a young goat.
A Little ‘Rarely Known History of the Church’, please consider (to quote):
Testimony of the Catacombs.
An illuminating side-light is cast on the opinions of the early Christians by the inscriptions and emblems on the monuments in the Roman Catacombs.12 It is well known that from the end of the First to the end of the Fourth Century the early Christians buried their dead, probably with the knowledge and consent of the pagan authorities, in subterranean galleries excavated in the soft rock (tufa) that underlies Rome.
These ancient cemeteries were first uncovered A.D. 1578. Already sixty excavations have been made extending five hundred and eighty-seven miles. More than six, some estimates say eight, million bodies are known to have been buried between A.D. 72 and A.D. 410.
Eleven thousand epitaphs and inscriptions have been found; few dates are between A.D. 72 and 100; the most are from A.D. 150 to A.D. 410. The galleries are from three to five feet wide and eight feet high, and the niches for bodies are five tiers deep, one above another, each silent tenant in a separate cell. At the entrance of each cell is a tile or slab of marble, once securely cemented and inscribed with name, epitaph, or emblem.
Haweis beautifully says in his “Conquering Cross:” “The public life of the early Christian was persecution above ground; his private life was prayer underground.” The emblems and inscriptions are most suggestive. The principal device, scratched on slabs, carved on utensils and rings, and seen almost everywhere, is the Good Shepherd, surrounded by his flock and carrying a lamb. But most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at the early date regarded as the objects of the Savior’s solicitude, after departing from this life.
Source: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
Never Forget.
(John 12:32) —> ALL MEN.
The Word “Draw” in Greek here is the same Word used for ‘fishing’ hence Lord Jesus Christ is implying that He is the Great Fisher of ALL MEN (none will be lost eventually).
Let us speak ‘Worthily’ of Him. Please. Think.
Spiritual Secrets – Communion of the Saints
Moses had an actual ‘spiritual experience’ with the ‘righteous spirits’ belonging to the “general assembly” in heaven and “church of the firstborn” (yes, firstborn from the dead being resurrected ‘after’ Christ e. g. Matthew 27:52 – 53) —> part of the ‘Communion of the Saints’ as God Willed (as it is described in Verses below):
“And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” But you have come to Mount Zion and to the City of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Sprinkled Blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.” (Hebrews 12:21 – 24, NASB)
The Apostles Creed mentions this Mystery too as follows:
“I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints”
Catholic = In the Apostles Creed, the phrase “Catholic Church” means “Universal Church” which includes all churches and not the ‘Modern post Constantine Catholic Denomination from Rome only’.
Sadhu Sundar Singh discusses a little regarding this “Communion of Saints” which he encountered in his own spiritual visions too as the image shows (Pg 73, Chapter 6 on the ‘Maharishi’, Sundar Singh by Dr. AJ Appasamy, Published by the Lutterworth Press, Cambridge in 1958).
Please note ‘carefully’ that Sadhu Sundar Singh’s spiritual visions agree to both the Shepherd of Hermas Book and Sibyline Oracles Perfectly as you may consider the posts below collectively to ‘understand’ this Biblical Mystery – Isn’t it Astounding?
Peace to you when this Happens:
“And all thy sons are taught of Jehovah, And ABUNDANT is the PEACE of thy sons.” (Isaiah 54:13, YLT)
P/S: An Important Question to Ponder
How do we expect to have any part of the “Communion of the Saints” from the spiritual world (e. g. in sharing of Wisdom as God Wills to Reveal the meaning of His Word through their writings & supernaturally giving us the “understanding” of Scripture as well) —> if we “don’t believe” in the “Communion of the Saints” itself?
We only receive what we believe by Faith based on what’s Found in Holy Scripture (“not” based on our imaginations or fantasies with “no” Verses).
1) Sadhu Sundar Singh – A Christian Universalist
2) Shepherd of Hermas – Afterlife Judgment Visions
3) Shepherd of Hermas – Afterlife Judgment and Repentance – FAQ
Shepherd of Hermas – Afterlife Judgment and Repentance – FAQ
4) Sibyline Oracles Mystery Match with Bible Verses Perfectly – Last Prophecies
Sibyline Oracles Mystery Match with Bible Verses Perfectly – Last Prophecies
5) Last Things – Lake of Fire
6) Last Afterlife Secrets – God SAVES from HELL
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/last-afterlife-secrets-god-saves-from-hell/
7) The True Meaning of Sabbath – All Men Saved Eventually to Worship God Together
Veneration of Mary? What Nonsense is this?
Self Contradicting Christianity – Simply Claiming the Saints on their Side.
For Example, Please consider the Famous Quote in Image.
Now, here’s a point to ponder:
‘Justin Martyr did not venerate Mary, opps. No such thing exists in his writings.’
What does it mean?
‘It means that ‘your lips honor Christ’ but your life does NOT when you venerate Mary as even Justin did NOT do it.’
Can you see it?
Some claim the saints to teach the things which they may have never taught such as in this case (Justin never wrote on Venerating Mary in any way) or due to ‘bad translations’ such as the word ‘age-during fire’ (e.g. Polycarp used it just as Iraneous or even Clement of Alexandria) which is ‘age -during fire, not eternal as Latin or English translations err/add’.
Can you ‘really’ see it now?
Isn’t it Written in the 10 Commandments (the 3rd Commandment) that thou shall NOT bear a false witness? (e.g. by claiming or implying these saints to teach something which they NEVER taught – Please, let that ‘sink’ in)
P/S: This is what Justin Martyr and Iraneous actually wrote regarding Mary:
St. Justin Martyr (d.165), the early Church’s first great apologist, describes Mary as the “obedient virgin” through whom humanity receives its Savior, in contrast to Eve, the “disobedient virgin,” who brings death and disobedience to the human race:
(The Son of God) became man through the Virgin that the disobedience caused by the serpent might be destroyed in the same way in which it had originated. For Eve, while a virgin incorrupt, conceived the word which proceeded from the serpent, and brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary was filled with faith and joy when the Angel Gabriel told her the glad tidings…. And through her was he born…. (3)
St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d.202), great defender of Christian orthodoxy, establishes Mary as the New Eve who participates with Jesus Christ in the work of salvation, becoming through her obedience the “cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race”:
Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race…. And so it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by Mary’s obedience. For what the virgin Eve bound fast by her refusal to believe, this the Virgin Mary unbound by her belief.
Can’t you see that it has NOTHING to do with VENERATING Mary but rather each are describing a ‘Theological Point’ and honouring Mary’s Obedience to God (nothing less, nothing more)?
How can you infer from that to ‘build an altar for Mary’ and even say that ‘she receives prayer’ and even acts as a mediator of some sort between you and Christ (which are all NOT Written in the above – Isn’t it obvious?)
‘Your own heroes whom you revere will CONDEMN you for quoting them to teach the things which they NEVER taught in Principle of John 5:45, Good luck’ – Anonymous
“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:45, NASB)
P/S 2: Here’s an example of the ‘other side of the coin’ where using these ‘same quotes’, the writer ‘claims’ that both Justin Martyr and Iraneous ‘venerated Mary’.
http://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mary_early_church_miravalle.htm
Decide for yourselves which is based on ‘what they wrote only’.
Pointless – Man Made Rules
Verses (in image too):
“If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?” – apostle Paul (Colossians 2:20 – 22, NASB)
Context: the phrase “in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?” (Verse 22) —> implies that it is “pointless” (NO benefit especially spiritually into the ‘afterlife’) to hold on to such ‘man made rules’ (e. g. in ‘popular culture’).
The ‘Real Rules’ to obey as a Gentile Believer is anything WRITTEN in apostle Paul’s Inspired Writings (1 Corinthians 14:37 defines these as the “Commands of the Blessed Lord”) and we are also COMMANDED to SPEAK the SAME things in 1 Corinthians 1:10 lest we become a ’cause of divisions by doing otherwise’ (Danger of being Judged on Judgment Day – unless God has Mercy on Whomever He Wills, Romans 9:15 – 16).
Conclusion
As Christians, there is more to the Gospel than charity works only and we ought to grow in His Word & preachers should focus more on ‘Word & Doctrine’ which is ‘more special than other ministries by elders’ as it is implied clearly in Verse below as it is Written (please don’t ‘miss’ out and regret in the afterlife by having a wrong focus of works only without “His Word”):
“Let the ELDERS that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, ESPECIALLY they who labour in the WORD and DOCTRINE.” – apostle Paul (1 Timothy 5:17, KJV)
Or, in another translation:
“The ELDERS who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, ESPECIALLY those who work hard at PREACHING and TEACHING.” – apostle Paul (1 Timothy 5:17, NASB)
Every Christian has a fair chance at it as God is NO respector of persons (Romans 2:11, Acts 10:34).
“For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” – apostle Paul (Romans 1:16, NASB)
We need to have more faith and perseverance like apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 11:1) whose faith is ‘Legendary’ as it is Described in Verses below & History proved it thereafter in him laying down his life for Lord Jesus Christ (no Wonder God Chose apostle Paul – some things can only be “understood” retrospectively):
“And now, behold, bound by the Spirit, I am on my way to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit solemnly testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me. “But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the Gospel of the Grace of God.” – apostle Paul (Acts 20:22 – 24, NASB)
P/S: What does this Verse mean?
“for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29, NASB)
What God has given cannot be changed. God does that so that NO EVIL can ever OVERCOME GOOD in any way in the END for He Will Restore All according to HIS HOLY WILL only (Acts 3:21).
Here’s an analogy to understand it, please consider:
An Elephant may be bigger and stronger than a Lion. But even if an Elephant managed to kill a Lion, the Elephant does NOT become the king of the jungle. The Dead Lion remains a Dead King while the Elephant remains an Elephant only.
A ‘Kingly’ Example from the Bible where ONLY the Kings who Served their people well are honoured, please consider these Verses:
“He hath made the world as a wilderness, And his cities he hath broken down, Of his bound ones he opened not the house. All kings of nations — all of them, Have lain down in honour, each in his house, And — thou hast been cast out of thy grave, As an abominable branch, raiment of the slain, Thrust through ones of the sword, Going down unto the sons of the pit, As a carcass trodden down.Thou art not united with them in burial, For thy land thou hast destroyed, Thy people thou hast slain, Not named to the age is the seed of evil doers.” (Isaiah 14:17 – 20, YLT)
Because of such a FAIR and JUST GOD, it will come to Pass also that:
“All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth” – from king David to other kings among men (Psalm 138:4, NASB)
Parental Duty – To be Considered Good in the Eyes of God
“Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.” (Ephesians 6:1, NASB)
Please note that Ephesians 6:1 says to “obey your parents in the Lord” and NOT blind obedience, i. e. “obey your parents in whatever they say”.
Meaning?
We are to obey them when they teach something in accordance to the Word of God only (Bible). For example: A parent may require a child to work more and bring more income back to be a ‘good son’ but this is NEVER Written in the Bible as a duty of son (NO Verse says this). If somebody claims otherwise, please show me the Verse?
In fact, the “opposite” is Commanded or Written in the Bible (Proverbs 13:22, Verse in Image – please ponder deeply to realize this as God’s Word does NOT take sides).
Here’s an illustration:
A father was trying to send indirect messages to his son to go to work to ‘earn big money’ for ‘his own good & future’, —-> the son replied with the Verse in Image.
The father is DISOBEYING God when he does something equivalent to the above (whether intentionally or not) simply because there is NO VERSE (I repeat, NO VERSE) which demands a duty of a son to provide ‘inheritance and wealth to the parents’ (can you see it?) —> so by doing so, a parent ends up PROVOKING the child as per this Verse which WARNS against such behaviour, “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger,…” (Ephesians 6:4, NASB).
In the Old Testament, Abraham, Isaac etc. followed this Rule and only took care of their aged parent with the inheritance and wealth which the parent’s provided first. Isn’t this obvious from Scripture itself? Some worked ‘extra’ like Jacob for the sake of ‘his own life’ or ‘for his own wife’ as the case of Laban reveals. Let’s NOT twist any of these Biblical examples to mean something that is NOT.
If we follow God’s Perfect Law as per Verse in Image (Proverbs 13:22), everyone will only marry when they can provide as thus to each of their children thus eliminating poverty – Can you see that poverty and all that is NEVER God’s Will if only we ‘took the Verses such as these in regards to marriage seriously’?
Our own parents and forefathers are the cause of inheritance or poverty as it’s their duty to provide to their children likewise as it will be our duty too likewise if we marry and have children.
If you and I cannot provide to that extent, we should have lesser children and provide to that extent or if really can’t, then best is to not have kids in marriage or don’t marry at all than to profane the Name of God each time we fail to fulfill our own duty (‘as though God asked them to marry and have kids without providing thus’ – people blame God for their own mistakes, very few are matured enough to realize this obvious truth).
Ask yourself, “did God ask you to marry and have kids?” If yes, how come you couldn’t see these Verses which God Spoke in regards to your duty as a parent? Now, did God really Speak to you?
Reality: Despite all these errors, God has Mercy and let’s us live and provides good things though we are wrong. These things do not prove that we were right when we fail to fulfill our duties according to the Verses.
It’s similar to Solomon being born to Bathsheba even though King David committed both a murder and an adultery (2 of the Ten Commandments broken there) to marry Bathsheba. Yes, Bathsheba is NOT God’s Will for king David who lusted after her but regardless as king David repented, God did a Good of Solomon to be born later even though marrying Bathsheba is WRONG and NEVER His Holy Will.
God’s Will is like this: king Solomon would be born even to king David’s first wife even if he did NOT marry Bathsheba. God is NOT mocked by our errors and sins which are ours to bear.
The Word of God Stands Perfect and is NO respecter of any persons. Verses for this Truth (as opposed to following popular man made culture against it which caused the ‘poverty’ in the World – How is it God’s Fault when we DISOBEYED His Perfect Principles? Let’s ‘think’ first, our failures caused that poverty):
“House and wealth are an inheritance from fathers, …” (Proverbs 19:14, NASB)
“A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, …” (Proverbs 13:22, NASB)
Blessed be the Name of the LORD!
HalleluYah!
P/S: How can God teach a man to be against his father (if the father is wrong)? Here’s a Verse (in the Context of Speaking Gospel Truth which includes BIBLICAL TRUTHS ONLY):
“For I came to turn a man against his father, … ” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:35, CSB)
What’s the Logic in that?
God’s Word does NOT teach ‘nepotism’ or partiality of any kind because if a person is ‘wrong’ (even if it’s our father or mother), they are ‘wrong’ and God’s Word teaches Truth only (Romans 2:11, Acts 10:34). If a parent has fulfilled his duty in this somewhat, then ‘Well Done!’
Do NOT despise the Word of God and Forget His Law because:
“The wicked shall be turned into Hell (Sheol/Hades), and all the nations that forget God.” (Psalm 9:17, KJV)
Let’s NOT be deceived by ‘sweet talks’ with NO Verses claiming ‘otherwise’ (with NO responsibility from ‘parent toward their kids’ kind of talk):
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,” – apostle Paul (2 Timothy 4:3, NASB)
Promise – Live Long?
Question
“Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;” (Ephesians 6:2, KJV)
“Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.” (Exodus 20:12, KJV)
Your mother seems to have died young (age 60). Does it mean that she did not honour her parents and hence did not attain the promise of long life (as per the Verses above)?
Reply
Well it could be true if other factors are held constant. For example, people can also die young due to other causes (e.g. martyrdom, accident, dishonoring the Lord’s Communion – 1 Corinthians 11:30 etc.). So, I cannot be sure of the exact cause.
I could die young too for the aforementioned causes or even due to dishonoring my parents. I accept the decision of the Blessed LORD regardless for He is Justified in Condemning me (I have many other reasons due to my various sins for which I should die young).
Conclusion
Our loyalty is to God and NOT our parents or any other ‘creation’. So, Blessed be the Name of the LORD in His Judgment too (He knows exactly ‘why’ in each case and will reveal it on that Day – Luke 8:17, Matthew 10:26, Romans 2:16).
“Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.” – apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 4:5, NASB)
“For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.” (Ecclesiastes 12:14, NASB)
Our Duty is to be Preach Biblical Truths and Obey it (in Principle of Matthew 5:19).
His Holy Word vs Opinions of Men
Question
I don’t believe in the Bible Verses but only Christ as Logos.
Reply
The Word or Logos Himself (John 1:1) Who Became FLESH (John 1:14) referred to the “Torah” (Matthew 5:17) and Chose parts of it to apply to any Gentile believer through the apostle of the Gentiles, apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37) in New Testament Writings.
The apostle of the Jews, apostle Peter did likewise in the context of the Jews too (2 Peter 3:2).
Example of an actual observance proving distinction between ‘Jewish believers’ (Acts 21:24) vs ‘Gentile believers’ (Acts 21:25) can be seen in the Consecutive Verses in Acts 21:24 – 25 respectively.
Between ‘actual Verses’ and ‘your own words’, I prefer Verses. Shalom.
P/S: He revealed to you differently than 1 Corinthians 14:37 as He did to apostle Paul?
Commands of the Blessed Lord by Christ (E.g. in 1 Corinthians 14:37) —> anything Christ Says will Last (e.g. verse in Image Matthew 24:35).
Matthew 24:35 says HIS WORDS —> anything He Spoke or Inspired say apostle Paul to Write (1 Corinthians 14:37) or through the other apostles too (2 Peter 3:2).
A Famous Example:
Perhaps this might help (already researched earlier):
To Quote:
8) Regarding 1 Corinthians 14:34
Some ‘American scholars’ think that 1 Corinthians 14:34 should not be in the Bible due to ‘two dots’ added by some Italian monks (?) in ‘later centuries’. Their PhD analysis is that these ‘Italian monks’ aren’t sure if 1 Corinthians 14:34 belonged to the Bible or not and so they put the ‘two-dot-marker’ on ‘some few manuscripts’. Do you want to believe that?
Who are these Italian monks to decide that after the earliest copies of the manuscripts were Written? What they don’t tell you is:
There are NO manuscripts that omit the verses.
But yet, some Christians just love to ‘believe these American Scholars’ with a PhD. Can you see the absurdity?
Further, if their claim is true and you accept it (they call it ‘new scholarship’), then why all translations of the Bible still has 1 Corinthians 14:34 in it? This is because all the ‘earliest’ and ‘accepted copyist manuscripts’ have this verse.
Can’t you see that even ‘their two-dot manuscripts’ still have this verse and was NEVER removed by these Italian monks itself? If you believe them, please tear out 1 Corinthians 14:34 from your Bibles, if you ‘dare’.
Truth is, these Italian monks were not trying to remove the 1 Corinthians 14:34 verse as FALSELY claimed by your ‘American PhD scholars’ which is especially proven since these manuscripts still contain that verse only with ‘two-dots’ beside it, right? Are you ‘blind’? These Italian monks ‘moved’ the verse from place of verse 34 and wasn’t sure if need to put it near verse 40 (or something equivalent to that) and thus that’s why they added the ‘two-dots’ which indicate that ‘they moved the verse’. Can’t you see?
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/female-roles-strange-modern-teachings-faq-women-leadership/
Does it contradict apostle Paul’s Teachings elsewhere?
NO, not at all.
Explanation
That’s another ‘common fallacy’ by ‘self contradicting’ interpretations.
We have no such problems. To quote:
(iv) Examples
Church Order (1 Corinthians 14:33 – 34, 40).
Rule for men (1 Corinthians 11:4, 7, 14).
Rule for women (1 Corinthians 11:5, 6, 13, 15).
Speaking in tongues in a church gathering (1 Corinthians 14:19, 23, 26, 27 – 33).
Different rule for Male vs Female generally (1 Timothy 2:12) vs in church gatherings too (1 Corinthians 14:34).
Different rule for Jewish believers (Acts 21:24) vs Gentile believers (Acts 21:25).
(v) How about Galatians 3:28?
Apostle Paul wrote Galatians 3:28 and each of the quoted Verses above too. For example, please believe in both 1 Timothy 2:12 and Galatians 3:28 and not in misquoting Galatians 3:28.
It’s simple really. Apostle Paul did NOT write Galatians 3:28 to cancel 1 Corinthians 14:34 nor to cancel 1 Timothy 2:12. Do you dare claim that he meant that? Before you answer, please remember that “liars” go to the “Lake of Fire”, right (Revelation 21:8)?
Apostle Paul Wrote Galatians 3:28 in the “afterlife context” of being “sons of God” to “inherit His Kingdom” of which no distinction remains between Male vs Female or Jew vs Gentile etc. among “believers” as the Context of Consecutive Verses in Galatians 3:26 – 27, 29 clearly imply irrefutably in Verses below:
“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” – apostle Paul (Galatians 3:26 – 29, NASB)
In other words, the Topic being discussed when apostle Paul wrote Galatians 3:28 is certainly NOT church leadership for women NOR Jew-Gentile obedience in regards to the Torah and hence we should NOT quote it to such Topics to which the Bible did NOT refer to when a Verse was Written to be “Truthful with NO Twisting at all”.
Please, let us be “truthful and wise” when quoting “Verses” in “Correct Context” as it is Written toward the Topic in Discussion ‘only’ and NOT quoting it contradictingly AGAINST other Written Verses.
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/law-of-god-law-of-moses-torah-law-of-christ/
Gehenna – Is there Hope beyond it?
Firstly, note that both the 70AD and 587BC events are true and represent the ‘earthly shadow’ of Gehenna but NOT the actual spiritual reality of Gehenna which is the Lake of Fire (in Principle of Hebrews 10:1, Colossians 2:17, John 1:45, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:27).
So, to speak of half of it (e. g. The 70AD Theory) is to know a half truth but missing out on the deeper spiritual reality spoken of in Holy Scripture.
Let’s begin, from an earlier write up:
Secrets from the Wise Jews may be seen as follows:
(i) What’s the Difference between Gehenna and Sheol (Hades)?
To quote (Page 34):
“Hanhart (1966:32) states that according to Jeremias, however, it is fundamental
for our understanding of the New Testament to make a sharp distinction between Hades
and Gehenna.
Hades is used exclusively for the interim period, Gehenna on the other side
for a state of punishment after the last judgment. In Hades, the punishment is provisional, in Gehenna eternal.”
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/gehenna-is-salvation-possible-from-gehenna/
To quote further:
The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible known as Targums supply the term “Gehinnom” frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase “second death”, as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of “Gehenna” to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses “where their worm does not die”.[20]
Example – Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Bereshith 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Bereshith 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year. There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[21] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.
Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
(vi) If their concept of Gehenna is wrong, Christ wouldn’t have mentioned it.
But does it mean that Rabbinical Judaism got the facts regarding Gehenna right?
The Rabbinical writings contain some truth but they missed some part of it.
That’s why when Lord Jesus Christ spoke of Gehenna, He is referring to what they know but corrected their understanding of it and revealed more details as it is Written in New Testament verses.
Some ‘secrets’ regarding Gehenna in the Context of Universal Reconciliation in Christ (Colossians 1:16, Colossians 1:20) may only be known through His Prophets (or Saints) as Amos 3:7 mentions in New Testament times (Colossians 1:26). Yes, the secrets revealed in New Testament times includes the fact that the ‘Gentiles are co-heirs in Christ’ (Colossians 1:27) and that God Will Reconcile All Created things (Colossians 1:16) back to Himself too eventually (Colossians 1:20) as the Context of Consecutive Verses in Colossians implies irrefutably as it is Written Majestically in Holy Scripture as well.
Source:
There is there Hope beyond Gehenna as it is even mentioned in Rabbinical Judaism similar to the Sibyline Oracles Prophecy too, to quote:
To quote (Page 38):
“Bernard (1915:290) quotes two passages from the Bereshith Rabba to show that this idea was prominent in Jewish literature. He is, however, unsure of the dating of the literature.
Nevertheless, it still demonstrates the basic purpose of the descent:
‘When they are bound, they that are in Gehinnom, saw the light of the Messiah, they
rejoiced to receive him’; and ‘This is that which stands written, We shall rejoice and exult thee.
When?
When the captives climb out of hell, and the Shechinah at their head.’
The only difference here is that the captives are in Gehinnom and not Sheol.”
P/S:
Source for both Quotes are from this phD Dissertation (link below, please read it). Indeed, the phD thesis I referred to may be found in link below:
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
Here’s a Word of Wisdom when reading such ‘Research’:
‘Focus on their facts, and not their interpretation or acceptation of it’
Peace to you
All Men – All Humanity?
Sometimes the answers are in Verses we have never seen before. Example (a Prophetic Psalm below concerning ALL MEN – ‘Context’):
“O You who hear prayer, to You ALL MEN come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, You FORGIVE them.” (Psalm 65:2 – 3, NASB)
“O Thou that hearest prayer, unto Thee shall ALL FLESH come; Iniquities prevail against me: as for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, Thou shalt PURGE them AWAY.” (Psalm 65:2 – 3, KJV)
“Hearer of prayer, to Thee ALL FLESH cometh. Matters of iniquities were mightier than I, OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, — Thou dost COVER THEM.” (Psalm 65:2 – 3, YLT)
“O Thou that hearest prayer, unto Thee doth ALL FLESH come. The tale of iniquities is too heavy for me; As for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, Thou wilt PARDON them.” (Psalm 65:3 – 4, JPS Tanakh 1917)
ALL FLESH = ALL MEN = ALL HUMANITY in their ‘Resurrected Sinless Bodies eventually’. Remember the discussions regarding it in other posts (example the one below, in regards to this with respect to AGE1, AGE2 and AGE3)?
Peace to you
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Yes, God does NOT Change. He NEVER Changed.
P/S: The ‘Worm that Dieth Not’
A Preterist View is limited to the earthly mirror only (Principle of Hebrews 10:1, Colossians 2:17).
For example, by quoting Isaiah 66:24 in ‘regards to the Worm that Dieth not’ & linking it to the 70AD Timeline, the Preterist View ‘misses’ the ‘New Heavens & New Earth’ (Context of Timeline, Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1) and the entire exegesis does NOT fit in the right Timeline in regards to the ‘actual prophecy’ meant which is the ‘Lake of Fire’ (Gehenna).
Too much to explain here, please consider the two posts below (the first discusses the Sabbath Relevance in regards to the Salvation of All Men while the Second Discusses further into the Details as how the Modus Operandi of the Last Prophecy regarding the Lake of Fire can be understood in the Context of the Salvation All Men using ancient Christian-Judaism texts).
Peace to you
1) https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/tithing-and-sabbaths-for-gentile-believers/
2) https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp – Eternal Hell, Annihilation or Universal Restoration?
Introduction
The writings of Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp are the most reliable early church writings which are respected and accepted by all churches in general.
Now, which view of Hell did they teach – Eternal Hell, Annihilation or Universal Restoration?
The Problem with Christian websites quoting them to ‘prove the same stance with them’ often do it in English hence NOT letting you see the ‘actual’ Greek Word used in their writings. The common word in their writings is the same Greek Word use for punishment in the New Testament (e.g. Matthew 25:46, Jude 1:7), namely “aion” or “eon” (noun or adjective) meaning ‘age-during literally’ (a singular age, as there are plural-ages to come too proving this distinction irrefutably, e. g. Ephesians 2:7).
Example (you don’t need to be a Greek Scholar to study a single word aion-eon and its derivations):
“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal [age-during] punishment” (Second Clement 5:5, 150AD).
Can you see it? There’s a dilemma in the translation as whether ‘eternal punishment’ or ‘age-during punishment’ is referred to in the above since Clement of Rome (in the above) must have used the ‘same’ phraseology of ‘aionion kolasin’ in Greek (Matthew 25:456 or equivalent) agreeing with New Testament (NT) Inspired Writings.
Here’s a serious question to ponder (which may explain ‘why’ this analysis is important or are we wasting our time —> One of the 10 Commandments mentions that we should NOT bear a false witness, and hence after reading this brief write up, please decide the danger as to whether we have interpreted them & their doctrine correctly or have erred as per the Latin fathers of the Church, where the Greek fathers such as Clement of Alexandria seem to to point to a different understanding using these ‘same phraseology’ too [during the parallel Timeline next, e.g. Tertullian vs Clement of Alexandria] – Shocking, isn’t it?)
Another Example:
Eternal Hell/Annihilation Theologians may quote:
“Theophilus of Antioch, 181AD “Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal [age-during] punishments and to obtain the eternal [age-during] good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting [age-during] fire” (To Autolycus 1:14)
[Emphasis Mine throughout this Writing]
Please note that the Greek Word for ‘Immortality or Incorruptibility’ (e.g. in 1 Corinthians 15) as it is found in quote above too has NEVER been used to describe the duration of any ‘afterlife Judgment’ in the Bible and is NOT from the Greek Word “Aion or Eon” proving further distinction on the ‘fine details’ (in case you didn’t realize this well known fact).
What is the “[age-during, and NOT eternal] good things of God” which is mentioned in the above?
It refers to the Coming First Resurrection to live in this Renewed Old Earth under this present Old Heavens (Revelation 20:4 – 6) during His Millennial Reign for 1000 years. This Reign is NOT eternal and the good things from this OLD earth is NOT eternal since at the end of this age (after the 1000 years are up), the Great White Throne of Judgment takes place next (Revelation 20:11 – 15) and thereafter a NEW heaven and a NEW earth with NO sea too will be made for us to dwell (Revelation 21:1).
Holy Scripture itself proves the existence of ‘non eternal but age-during good things which last to the end of this current age only in the OLD earth & OLD heavens’ (2 Corinthians 4:18) because that’s the ‘first reward’ we receive upon the ‘Resurrection of the Just’ during the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ. Even St. Iraneous explained this distinction in ‘against Heresies’ that the ‘General Resurrection’ (Chapter 35, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 – 29) is 1000 years later than this ‘First Resurrection’ (called the ‘times of the kingdom’, Chapter 34, Revelation 20:4 – 6) proving distinction though he did not go into much details for the ‘General Resurrection’. To quote:
(i) First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – 17)
“Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.” Then, too, Isaiah has declared the TIME when THESE EVENTS shall OCCUR; he says: “And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth.” Then Daniel also says this very thing: “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting [age-during till the end of this age during the LAST DAY for 1000 years, Daniel 7:27], and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: “And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days.” – (Iraneous, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34:2)
(ii) General Resurrection (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 – 29)
The GENERAL RESURRECTION is only AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM (1000 years Millennial Reign for the ‘First Resurrection’) toward the NEW Earth
“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the NEW earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, “I saw a Great White Throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the [OLD] earth fled away, and the [OLD] heavens; and there was no more place for them.” And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the judgment, mentioning “the dead, great and small.” … Lake of Fire, the second death.” Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal [age-during] fire. “And if any one,” it is said, “was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.”… “For there shall be a NEW heaven and a NEW earth; and there shall be NO remembrance of the FORMER, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.” Now this is what has been said by the apostle: “For the fashion of this world passeth away.” To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, “[OLD] Heaven and [OLD] earth shall PASS AWAY.” When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new [426-427] Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image-that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” – (Iraneous, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35:2)
Please note that in the above that there are ‘two Jerusalems’ spoken of namely that the ‘earthly Jerusalem’ (Image, Shadow on the OLD Earth during the 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ) vs the ‘Jerusalem from above’ (Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:2, Actual – Substance in Christ) which descends upon the NEW Earth only (Revelation 21:1, consecutive Verse prior) proving the exegesis Principle of Hebrews 10:1 and Colossians 2:17 via Iraneous own writing above.
How do we know that the “everlasting fire” in the earlier quote by Theophilus is more accurately “age-during fire” since it must use the same Greek Phrase in NT (say in Matthew 18:8)? Because Theophilus of Antioch also wrote the below (hardly quoted by any eternal Hell/annihilation theologians, though they know that such a quote exists – a Universalist Quote):
“And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled…just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. –Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
Source:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
This Proves that Theophilus of Antioch did NOT understand ‘age-during punishment’ as ‘forever’ but ‘only till the last penny’ within the ‘appointed time period of an age’.
In the Bible, we know that the ‘aiōniou fire’ in Jude 1:7 toward Sodom is NOT eternal since the Bible also Prophesies a Restoration toward the ‘fallen Sodom’ in Ezekiel 16:53 (as per the ‘fallen Israel’ – Context of Ezekiel 16 which will be Restored too till ‘all Israel are Saved from their sins as well’ – Romans 11:26 – 27 in regards to this Mystery or Secret of Judgment, Romans 11:25, in Principle of the RESTORATION of ALL THINGS, and ‘not Israel or believing things only’ as it is Majestically Prophesied in Acts 3:21).
Apostle Paul echoes a Triumph of Mercy ending Judgment likewise as the Final Word (Last Word of Judgment) in Conclusion in Romans 11:32 toward ‘ALL the Disobedient (NASB)’ or ‘ALL in Unbelief (KJV)’ too. So, [all afterlife] Judgment must be understood in the Context of the Mystery or Secret (Romans 11:25) of MERCY Triumphing or Rejoicing against Judgment (e.g. ‘ALL Israel will eventually be SAVED from their SINS too’ – Romans 11:26 – 27), ending the Judgment Sentence as ‘the gift & calling of God is Irrevocable’ (Romans 11:29) as even apostle James echoed similarly ‘that an [afterlife] Judgment without Mercy must be endured first before this happens’ in James 2:13 (agreeing with the Sibyline Oracles and Shepherd of Hermas too as we have seen in earlier posts).
Let’s focus more on Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp as the views of others are ‘later’ and may not matter much as the ‘earliest ones take precedence’. It is very easy to ‘misunderstand’ what they wrote without considering ‘all that they wrote’ as it will be demonstrated here. All quotes of ‘Hell’ are from the link below (unless specified otherwise):
http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm
“155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp “Fixing their minds on the Grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal [age-during] life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal [age-during] and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).”
So, you may decide in the end whether they meant say ‘eternal punishment’ or ‘age-during punishment’ after reading this write up in full please (before deciding anything), I implore thee, thank you. Let’s Begin.
Is there a Difference of Inheritance in the Heavens?
Yes, even for the righteous there is a distinction of inheritance.
Before that, please consider a famous fallacy arising from NOT understanding the definition of ‘heaven’ in the following quote (often used to prove ‘soul sleep’):
“For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians.” – Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 80:9)
What did Justin mean when he says “… who say …their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians?
Doesn’t that plainly contradict Luke 16:19 – 31?
Not really. What Justin Martyr means as heaven is far more complex than ‘what we assume’ to be. Firstly, Luke 16:19 – 31 mentions of “Paradise” into which the “souls of the righteous go” and NOT heaven. Yes, “heaven” and “Paradise” are different as the Writings of Iraneous & even Papias reveal below (and Justin must be speaking from this ‘same knowledge too’):
Yes, this definition of ‘heaven(s)’ may be more complex than usually assumed, to quote:
‘A fragment from the early 2nd century of one of the lost volumes of Papias, a Christian bishop, expounds that “heaven” was separated into three distinct layers. He referred to the first as just “heaven”, the second as “paradise”, and the third as “the city”. Papias taught that “there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce a hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold’ (Papias, Fagments 5:1)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity
This explanation is further proven True as Lord Jesus Christ went to “Paradise” on the “same” Day He Died with His SOUL (Disproving the Soul Sleep Theory that His Soul Slept in the Grave for Three Days, Luke 23:43) but after He Resurrected Gloriously, i.e. Three Days later, He Ascended to the Father in a RESURRECTED BODY into the “Heavens” eventually (John 20:17, Mark 16:19, Acts 1:2 – 3, Acts 1:9 – 11, Ephesians 4:9 – 10).
This means that when we die, as Christians, with ‘our soul we will enter Paradise’ immediately (as per Luke 16:19 – 31) and await the ‘redemption of the body’ (Romans 8:23) to enter ‘heaven’ later when He Returns during the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 – 6). Yes, a soul with spirit can live in the afterlife abodes or regions such as ‘Abraham’s Bosom’ or Paradise (Luke 16:19 – 31, Revelation 6:10) or be gathered in the New Jerusalem City for the Wedding (Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:2, Revelation 19:7 – 9) but to ‘live on earth again or to enter higher into the heavens’, we need to partake of the Resurrection First (Revelation 20:4 – 6, Hebrews 11:39 – 40, Hebrews 12:21 – 24).
Example:
“we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” – apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 5:8, NASB)
So, the phrases in Verse above may mean as follows:
‘absent from the body’ = Bodily Death = Soul with Spirit separates from the Body where the latter sleeps in the dust of the earth.
‘to be at home with the Lord’ = Soul with Spirit enters the abodes of the righteous
The ‘Unconscious’ Part of being ‘dead’ refers to the ‘body primarily’ and in the context of NOT knowing anything that is ‘done under the sun’ (earthly context – not speaking of afterlife unconsciousness in Ecclesiastes itself). Example of a good post explaining this, please consider:
Please note that the Twenty Four Elders may be in the Heavens (in the Throne Room of God Itself, Revelation 4:4, Revelation 4:10, Revelation 11:16, Revelation 19:4) because these may be the WORTHY SAINTS of the past who may already obtained their RESURRECTION in the BODY just ‘after’ Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:52 – 53) who may be the ones that ‘sit on the thrones’ during the First Resurrection for Christians itself (Revelation 20:4 – 6).
Please note ‘carefully’ that we explained earlier how St. Iraneous when speaking of the wicked must have meant the following (where most of our popular theological misunderstanding is due to viewing body, soul & spirit with no distinction or mixing these up causing contradictions in such exegesis):
(1) Conscious Punishment and Annihilation
The Annihilation part is usually signified by phrases such as ‘cease to exist’ or ‘to the end’ or ‘die’ or ‘death’ while the Conscious Torment part is signified by ‘phrases describing the suffering or agony’.
What suffers and is annihilated eventually?
The ‘Body + Soul’ of the Wicked —> Suffers in accordance to one’s own sins first (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) and then are annihilated or ‘cease to exist’ later (Matthew 10:28); and NOT the spirit which lives to God thereafter post afterlife Judgment (1 Peter 4:5 – 6).
Example quotes which actually refer to the BODY or SOUL or BOTH to be ANNIHILATED as per Matthew 10:28 – Biblical Ground:
“our interests are in jeopardy,-the salvation, I mean, of your SOULS; and unless you give yourselves to seek to know the Supreme God, a cruel death awaits you when freed from the bonds of body, not bringing sudden ANNIHILATION, but destroying by the bitterness of its grievous and long-protracted punishment” – (Arnobius’ second book of Against the Heathen, 330 AD)
Note: “… SOULS … cruel death … ANNIHILATION…”
“The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.” (Pseudo-Barnabas, c. 70-130 AD)
Note: “… eternal [age-during?] death …” (where the SOUL dies, Ezekiel 18:20).
“You should fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the eternal fire. It will afflict those who are committed to it even to the end.” (Letter to Diognetus, c. 125-200)
Note: “… fear what is truly death… eternal [age-during] fire … afflict … even to the end” (the word ‘end’ refers to the ‘true death’ or ceasing to exist part of the Body + Soul in the ‘age-during fire’).
“Sinners will be consumed because they sinned and did not repent.” (Shepherd of Hermas, c. 150)
Note: “Sinners … CONSUMED …” (refers to the Body + Soul ceasing to exist).
“Those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death. However, those who have known God and have seen his mighty works, but still continue in evil, will be chastised doubly, and will die forever.” (Shepherd of Hermas, c. 150)
Note: ” … chastised doubly … die forever [to the age?]” (refers to the level of punishment received and the word ‘die’ refers to ‘body + soul’ which endures these punishments to cease to exist).
“We believe…that every man will suffer punishment in eternal fire according to the merits of his deed. … Sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up.” (Justin Martyr, c. 160)
Note: “… punishment in eternal [age-during] fire according to the merits of his deed …” (refers to the wicked receiving back according to what they have sown only, Galatians 6:7).
“Hell [Gehenna] is a place where those who have lived wickedly are to be punished.” (Justin Martyr, c. 160)
Note: Gehenna as the Lake of Fire definition (refuting the earthly mirror only claim by the 70AD and 587BC proponents or equivalent).
“Some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire.” (Justin Martyr, c. 160)
Note: “… punished unceasingly into judgment…” (refers to the continual nature of the punishment in that there is NO rest day or night when it takes place – not hinting on the duration of the entire punishment which is to the age as Verses and other quotes clearly prove).
“We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil.” (Athenagoras, c. 175)
Note: ” … worse life, one in fire … For animals perish and are annihilated… we would wish to do evil” (Points to the meaning of ‘perish’ in the context of being ‘annihilated’ where animals cease to exist entirely, hinting on the ‘body + soul’ of the wicked ceasing to exist entirely as well after Judgment in ‘fire’, echoed in analogy toward those who wish to continue in ‘doing evil’).
“Eternal fire is prepared for sinners. The Lord has plainly declared this and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it.” (Irenaeus, c. 180)
Note: “Eternal fire … rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it” (Points to the Usage of Scripture to understand its meaning, for example the ‘eternal fire’ in Jude 1:7 is not forever as Sodom is Promised to be Restored later too, Ezekiel 16:53 pointing it to mean ‘age-during more accurately’).
“All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery.” (Clement of Alexandria, c. 195; from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
Note: The Post Nicene Era (325AD – 451AD) copyist fragment of Clement of Alexandria (150AD – 215 AD) above if true, has an error namely that ‘souls are not immortal’ as these can be destroyed in Gehenna or Lake of Fire (Matthew 10:28).
Probably Clement was beginning an argument as to the common Greek assumption that ‘souls are immortal’ and illustrating the point (or contradiction) above of which we only have a ‘fragment of it’. In other words, Clement could be pointing out the error that by ‘assuming that the souls of the wicked are immortal’, then the implication is that ‘Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery’. Hence, the conclusion must be that the SOULS of the WICKED are NOT Immortal but can be DESTROYED (as per Matthew 10:28 – proving again that God is Good in Destroying these Souls of the Wicked so that He can raise their ‘spirit’ up to new life as explained in the Restoration Part next).
Here are ‘other Fragment Writings belonging to Clement of Alexandria’ which Proves that He did NOT teach an ‘Immortal Soul Concept’ as per the Greeks, to quote:
“… For He said again, that the SOUL never returns a second time to the body in this life; and that which has become ANGELIC does not become unrighteous or evil, so as not to have the opportunity of again sinning by the assumption of flesh; but that in the RESURRECTION the SOUL returns to the BODY, and both are joined to one another according to their peculiar nature, adapting themselves, through the composition of each, by a kind of congruity like a building of stones… SALVATION of your SOULS. Hence it appears that the SOUL is NOT naturally IMMORTAL; but is made immortal by the Grace of God…” (Clement of Alexandria, Fragments)
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html
So, the fragment above appears to agree with the explanation given earlier in that Clement sees that the SOUL itself needs SALVATION and hence if the wicked have immortal souls by nature, it is impossible for them to have an end to their misery (and hence the converse must be true, in that the wicked must have non-immortal souls which is for their good as they can be ‘made new’ post ‘destruction’). Also, the only way a SOUL can be IMMORTAL (as it is with the case of Christians) is that it may be SAVED by the Grace of God making it ‘sinless’ or as Clement says, ‘angelic’.
The earlier quote also does NOT agree to Clement’s Universalist quotes which questions its reliability such as (from the same source above):
“Ver. 2. “And not only for our sins,”–that is for those of the faithful,–is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, “but also for the whole world.” He, indeed, SAVES ALL; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so “that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;” that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life.” (Clement of Alexandria, Fragments)
How about St. Iraneous regarding refuting the Soul Sleep heresy & revealing more in his writings than often understood?
The Logic is simple: It CANNOT be that the ‘modern scholarship’ discovers a type of exegesis NOT found amongst the earliest Christianity. If two opposing ideas are found, I make a choice based on ‘which is earlier’ and also ‘which authority of Doctrine’ is quoted from the early church period too especially in regards to ‘accepted’ Writings (non-rejected by both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches) such as the Shepherd of Hermas, Sibyline Oracles and even the Writings of St. Iraneous of Lyons too. Perhaps they didn’t quite ‘fully understand’ the Mystery found in these Texts, for example:
(a) St. Iraneous of Lyons Explains that there is NO ‘soul sleep’ as the Example of Lord Jesus Christ also Proves:
“If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day “in the lower parts of the earth” [Eph. 4:9] ; then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples [John 20:20, 27], He thus ascended to the Father; [if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the shadow of death” [Ps. 23:4], where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.”
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
Comment: Iraneous’ Exegesis agrees perfectly with the Bible —> as ‘TODAY you will be with ME in Paradise’ is Written here (in Luke 23:43). Christ didn’t refer to His Kingdom though they thief asked to be ‘remembered’ in it.
(b) St. Iraneous of Lyons mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead and Salvation has occurred in the ‘afterlife’ at Hades
‘the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching (evangelizantem) His advent there also and the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him’ – Iranaeus (160-230 CE), Prescriptions Against Heretics IV, 27:211
If it happened once, can’t it happen again?
The Description above is regarding the Lord’s Descent and Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead (1 Peter 3:18 – 20). The ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book (which Iraneous considers as Scripture) mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead even by the apostles, hence it’s NOT a one time event (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:5 – 6), to quote:
Shepherd of Hermas (1st or 2nd Century CE), Ninth Similitude IX, 16:5-7 Writes:
‘These, the apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and the faith of the Son of God, preached also… to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. Therefore, they went down with them into the water, and came up again… So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God.’
Source for that phD thesis by Marietjie du Toit (most likely an ‘eternal Hell’ believer):
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
I repeat, I may NOT agree with the author’s deductions on ‘who’s right or wrong’ but I stick to the historical quotes found here.
(c) St. Iraneous of Lyons Voices in Favour of Evil being NOT eternal and NOT Immortal in men, Generally:
“Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable.” — St. Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.), author of ‘Against Heresies’ and the ‘hearer of Polycarp, the Disciple of John the Beloved of Lord Jesus Christ’
Source:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
This Statement agrees to the Bible in the Following way concerning Universal Salvation:
That life toward immortality transcends beyond after God becomes all in all toward all Creation later in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28) being set free from sin (vanity, futility) too sharing in this “aspect or area” of our Liberty (Romans 8:20 – 22).
Source:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/resurrection-christians-vs-the-rest-of-the-dead/
(2) Universal Reconciliation and Restoration
“whom indeed it behooves Heaven to receive [Lord Jesus Christ] until the TIMES of RESTORATION of ALL [Created] THINGS, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.” (Acts 3:21, BLB)
All Creation, really? How about plants or animals or the cockroach? It’s explained in detail in write up below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/reconcile-all-created-things-how-about-plants-and-animals/
The explanation in write up above is in principle of St. Iraneous’ own words in considering such details as follows, to quote (refuting ‘strong annihilation – theory’ in his own words, implying that ‘nothing ceases to exist in its essence of life’ —-> please note the phrase ‘NEITHER is the SUBSTANCE NOR the ESSENCE of the CREATION ANNIHILATED’):
“For since there are real men, so must there also be a real establishment (plantationem), that they vanish not away among non-existent things, but progress among those which have an actual existence. For neither is the substance nor the essence of the creation annihilated (for faithful and true is He who has established it), but “the fashion of the world passeth away;” that is, those things among which transgression has occurred, since man has grown old in them.
And therefore this [present] fashion has been formed temporary, God foreknowing all things; as I have pointed out in the preceding book, and have also shown, as far as was possible, the cause of the creation of this world of temporal things. But when this [present] fashion [of things] passes away, and man has been renewed, and flourishes in an incorruptible state, so as to preclude the possibility of becoming old, [then] there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, in which the new man shall remain [continually ], always holding fresh converse with God. And since (or, that) these things shall ever continue without end, Isaiah declares, “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I do make, continue in my sight, saith the Lord, so shall your [428-429] seed and your name remain…” (Iraneous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter 36:1)
“These, if they will, may go Christ’s way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice.” –Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
What is ‘heaven’, again? The quote from the Fragment of Papias must ring true as St. Iraneous himself seems to mention it thus in his own writing below, to quote:
“… And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.
[They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father,” (Iraneous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter 36: 1 – 2)
How about the Bible giving HOPE toward those who did not keep His Command or Law or Prophets?
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen. Whoever then shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach others the same, he will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever shall keep and shall teach them, he will be called great in the kingdom of the heavens. For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:17 – 20, BLB)
Firstly, we know from apostle Paul’s Writings that the challenge Christ issued in that —> ‘unless your righteousness shall abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heaven’ (in Matthew 5:20 above) —> was NEVER attained by any human being as it is Written —–> “because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight…” (Romans 3:20, NASB) and this aspect of Salvation regarding the Faith of Jesus Christ unto Salvation (for us to obtain the ‘Righteousness of God through Him only’ – Romans 3:21 – 22 toward ALL and ‘those who believe’ too, is explained in post below):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/faith-jesus-christ-2/
Thus, the Verse in Matthew 5:19 may be seen as including all men including the ‘ones who break His Commands too to be in His Kingdom of the Heavens – eventually by His Mercy which is Promised to ALL the Disobedient/Unbelieving too, Romans 11:32, applying post [afterlife Judgment Sentencing first] – James 2:13’ (in the Context of breaking any Law & Prophets, as Matthew 5:17 – 18 mentions first) towards being in ‘a part of heaven designated for the formerly-wicked vs the righteous’ (making sense of the ‘plural-heavens’ found in this Verse in actual Biblical Koine Greek which is OUTSIDE the Holy City – Revelation 22:15 & them NOT inheriting the Kingdom of God which is the ‘Inner Heavens’, you may say that this is only for the ‘Hundrendfold ones’ explained prior – 1 Corinthians 6:9 – 11) where this region of the heavens where the formerly-wicked dwell after being reconciled from the Lake of Fire (‘the thirsty or failed ones’- Revelation 21:6) toward whom the Immortal-non-Thirsty-Perfected Bride (His Church – Overcomers, Revelation 21:7) also calls out too (in Revelation 22:17) to be Reconciled and Drink of the River of Life FREELY (unmerited, unearned favour) which flows OUTSIDE the Holy City itself agreeing to both the Details found in both the Shepherd of Hermas and the Sibyline Oracles as it is Explained in Detail in the later parts of the Post below as well (agreeing to Colossians 1:16, 20):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
How about St. Iraneous in regards to Universal Restoration?
To Quote (albeit lengthy):
“… and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, “For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” For in the times of the kingdom, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die. “But when He saith, All things shall be subdued unto Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”
John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first “resurrection of the just,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision].
For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son; subsequently bestowing in a paternal manner those things which neither the eye has seen, nor the ear has heard, nor has [thought concerning them] arisen within the heart of man, For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father’s will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, “which the angels desire to look into;” and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of Which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature (facturam), that is, to what had been moulded (plasma), and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.” (Iraneous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter 36: 2 – 3)
Translation Source used for Iraneous’ ‘Against Heresies’:
http://www.textexcavation.com/irenaeusah5.html#chapter36
An Example (in Context, Consecutive Verses) —> A Secret referred to in Colossians 1:26 is that ‘believing Gentiles are co-heirs in Christ’ (Colossians 1:27) and also that HE will RECONCILE (both ways, meaning in Greek) ALL [Created] THINGS back to HIMSELF as it is Written (in Colossians 1:16 – Definition with Colossians 1:20 – Action), to Quote:
“because in Him were CREATED ALL THINGS in the heavens and upon the earth, the VISIBLE and the INVISIBLE, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; ALL [Created] THINGS have been CREATED through Him and unto Him. and by Him to RECONCILE ALL [Created] THINGS to Himself, having made PEACE by the BLOOD of His CROSS through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.” – apostle Paul (Colossians 1:16, 20, BLB)
We know that ALL CREATED THINGS (Definition: Colossians 1:16) will be RECONCILED (two ways) back to Lord Jesus Christ eventually by His BLOOD (Colossians 1:20, Context: Consecutive Verses) as even this “rarely known fragment” of St. Iraneous of Lyon’s writing itself PROVES IRREFUTABLY that this Universal Reconciliation Exegesis is the Biblical One (quoted from some of the most respected church historians below):
Schaff admits that the opinions of Irenaeus are doubtful from his (Schaff’s) orthodox standpoint and says: 12 “In the fourth Pfaffian fragment ascribed to him (Stieren I, 889) he says that ‘Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil—-and to reconcile all things– from Col. i:20–that there may be an end of all impurity.’
This passage, like I. Cor. xv:28, and Col. i:20, looks toward universal restoration rather than annihilation,” but good, orthodox Dr. Schaff admits that it, like the Pauline passages, allows an interpretation consistent with eternal punishment. (See the long note in Stieren.)
Dr. Beecher writes that Irenæus “taught a final restitution of all things to unity and order by the annihilation of all the finally impenitent. The inference from this is plain. He did not understand aionios in the sense of eternal; but in the sense claimed by Prof. Lewis, that is, ‘pertaining to the world
to come,'” not endless. Irenæus thought “that man should not last forever as a sinner and that the sin which was in him might not be immortal and infinite and incurable.”
Bunsen’s View. Says Bunsen: “The eternal decree of redemption, is, to Irenæus, throughout, an act of God’s love. The atonement, is, according to him, a satisfaction paid, not to God, but to the Devil, under whose power the human mind and body were lying. But the Devil himself only serves God’s purpose, for nothing can resist to the last, the Almighty power of divine love, which works not by constraint (the Devil’s way) but by persuasion.13 The different statements of Irenæus are hard to reconcile with each other, but a fair inference from his language seems to be that he hovered between the doctrines of annihilation and endless punishment, and yet leaned not a little hopefully to that of restoration. He certainly says that death ends sin, which forecloses all idea of endless torments. It is probable that the fathers differed, as their successors have since differed, according to antecedent and surrounding
influences, and their own idiosyncrasies. Of Christian writers up to date, all assert future punishment, seven apply the word rendered everlasting (aionios) to it; three, certainly did not regard it as endless, two holding to annihilation and one to universal restoration. Remembering, however, the doctrine of Reserve, we can by no means be certain that the heathen words used denoting absolute endlessness were not used “pedagogically,” to deter sinners from sin.
The Wicked’s General Resurrection in the ‘Flesh’ (John 5:28 – 29) in their ‘Body, Soul and Spirit’ (1 Thessalonians 5:23) on Judgment Day (before the Great White Throne, 1 Peter 4:5) —-> causes their FLESH to be DESTROYED when JUDGED in the FLESH (1 Peter 4:6) —> which refers to both their BODY and SOUL which contained SIN to eventually CEASE to EXIST as the word being DESTROYED means (Matthew 10:28) —> but their ‘Spirit’ will ‘live to God’ (1 Peter 4:6) which is to be understood as the ‘Made ALIVE Part’ which applies to ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22) as apostle Paul skipped this Judgment part never mentioning Lake of Fire in 1 Corinthians 15 at all —> where these formerly wicked may be given a ‘spirit + body = spiritual body’ (resurrected bodily – sinless, as the HOPE toward them too, Acts 24:15) as Promised to include ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22, Romans 5:18 – 19, 1 Timothy 2:4 – KJV, Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 4:10) but ‘differing in glory & substance too’ (1 Corinthians 15:38 – 49).
Regarding the Greek Word ‘Conciliation’ (as an ‘ambassador’ – one way offering) vs ‘Reconciliation’ (as a two way reality eventually), please consider the following analysis as quoted in link below (by an expert too – question 3 in link below):
The Word “NOW, PRESENT TIME” (Colossians 1:22) to you (believers, Colossians 1:21) being reconciled (on earth in this life, right?) speak thus.
The HOPE (please note the word HOPE in Colossians 1:23) of the Gospel (beyond this life, implied, 1 Corinthians 15:19 too) —> ‘that you have heard’ (Colossians 1:23, NASB) —> as it was described prior in Colossians 1:16 with Colossians 1:20 [with NO IF’s meaning that it is a HOPE which will take place eventually] —> where this HOPE includes the GOSPEL which will be PREACHED or PROCLAIMED to ALL CREATION (Mark 16:15), yes please note the phrase “proclaimed in all creation” (Colossians 1:23, NASB) as apostle mentions this as part of the HOPE (not yet Done in full but will be Done as it is Written, hence a certain HOPE with NO ifs mentioned together with it) —> agreeing to the GOSPEL being PREACHED or PROCLAIMED to the DEAD too (1 Peter 4:6) —> so that ALL CREATION will be SET FREE into the GLORIOUS LIBERTY of the CHILDREN of GOD too eventually (Romans 8:20 – 22).
Other Related Verses are quoted above to explain this HOPE further toward ALL Creation as it is Written agreeing with ALL THINGS CREATED being RECONCILED to HIM as Prophesied here (in this HOPE) in Colossians 1:16 & Colossians 1:20 as well in the FULLNESS of the TIMES (Ephesians 1:10) for His RANSOM to be applied to ALL eventually (1 Timothy 2:6) causing ALL things to be RESTORED (Acts 3:21) and MADE NEW too (Revelation 21:5) to achieve this till God becomes ALL in all eventually (1 Corinthians 15:28).
Conclusion
St. Iraneous of Lyons (being a hearer of Polycarp who was the disciple of apostle John & also who quotes Justin Martyr in his own writings), being endorsed as the author chosen to write ‘against heresies’ could not have erred in teaching all three views of Hell (eternal conscious torment, annihilation and universal restoration).
It is clear from the explanation above that St. Iraneous of Lyons is clearly a Christ Centered Universalist where he speaks of the ‘body + soul’ to be annihilated only after a period of ‘conscious torment’ during Judgment as he cannot be teaching that the ‘spirit ceases to exist’ or ‘eternal hell’ which contradicts ‘Matthew 10:28’ and his own quote that ‘Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil—-and to reconcile all things– from Col. i:20–that there may be an end of all impurity.’
We have grossly misunderstood the early church fathers by misquoting and misunderstanding their explanations especially when ‘we don’t quote them in full’ or ‘when we quote them in English translations as opposed to the original Biblical Koine Greek’ as well as ‘when we think it refers to body + soul + spirit’ where punishment only refers to ‘body + soul’ even when it is not written in their writings as Christ Himself Defined ONLY those two to be Destroyed (‘cease to exist’) in Gehenna (or Lake of Fire) in Matthew 10:28 (Let’s not add to His Word, right?) but it doesn’t end there as after the Judgment in the ‘resurrected flesh for Judgment’ (John 5:28 – 29, 1 Peter 4:5), the wicked’s “spirit” (distinct from body + soul, definition 1 Thessalonians 5:23) will LIVE to God post this [afterlife] Judgment as the next Consecutive Verse (Context) in 1 Peter 4:6 prove Irrefutably ‘as it is Written’.
This ‘formerly wicked-spirit’ which ‘lives to God’ (please note the word LIVES in 1 Peter 4:6 which ties it up to being made ALIVE in 1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22) to obtain a HOPE in the Resurrection of being made ALIVE (yes, NOT the ‘resurrection of Judgment earlier’, each being distinct, Acts 24:15) is explained in apostle Paul’s Inspired Writings in that these must ‘obtain a sinless spiritual body too thereafter’ (1 Corinthians 15:44) which is Promised to ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22, 1 Corinthians 15:48 – 49 including the Wicked, Acts 24:15) which marks the Full Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1 – 2, in Principle of Romans 4:5 too where we obtain a righteousness without works by believing in ‘God Justifying the Ungodly or Wicked’ according to Scripture).
How do I know that the definition of Body, Soul and Spirit in a Man is distinct as thus allowing for such an interpretation?
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” – apostle Paul (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NASB)
Body, Soul Spirit – What are those in a Man?
To quote:
“The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved.” – Justin Martyr (Chapter 10 – The body saved, and will therefore rise, On the Resurrection)
Source:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm
Is the Soul Immortal? The soul is mortal just like the body according to Justin agreeing in that both the BODY and SOUL can be DESTROYED (i.e. CEASE to EXIST) as it is Declared by our Blessed Saviour Himself in regards to Gehenna (or Lake of Fire, in Matthew 10:28), to quote:
“But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.” – Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Tyrpho)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
P/S: God is Good even toward the Wicked
The SPIRIT will be SAVED by GOD after this ‘Resurrection for Judgment in the FLESH for the Dead/Wicked’ (as John 5:28 – 29 mentions these wicked to be ‘resurrected for Judgment’ while Revelation 20:11 – 15 calls these wicked as ‘the dead’ before His Great White Throne as does 1 Peter 4:5 – 6 refer to these ‘resurrected wicked for Judgment’ as ‘the dead’ as well – please note ‘carefully’).
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY both SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna].” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NASB)
“who [the wicked] will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and THE DEAD. For to this end the Gospel was proclaimed even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God” (1 Peter 4:5 – 6, BLB)
So,
‘JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH’ (1 Peter 4:6) = ‘The Wicked or the Dead’ being Judged in their Resurrected for Judgment-Body in Gehenna of the Lake of Fire (1 Peter 4:5, John 5:28 – 29, Revelation 20:11 – 15) where at most both the BODY and SOUL is DESTROYED (i.e. ‘cease to exist’, Matthew 10:28)
It does NOT end there as:
‘but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God’ (1 Peter 4:6) = these formerly-wicked live in the spirit-state to God first post this Final Judgment.
A Word of Biblical Wisdom
“Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.” (Proverbs 9:8, kjv)
The Final Prophecy:
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN to Myself.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:32, BSB)
God does NOT Fail or write ‘vain attempts’; He Speaks what He Will Fulfill. Let’s have a ‘little faith’.
A Good Discussion Read (in link below):
A Word of Biblical Wisdom
“Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.” (Proverbs 9:8, kjv)
The Final Prophecy:
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN to Myself.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:32, BSB)
God does NOT Fail or write ‘vain attempts’; He Speaks what He Will Fulfill. Let’s have a ‘little faith’.
A Good Discussion Read (in link below):
Authorities in Doctrine – Sabbath, Tithing and the Law of Moses
Question
How to understand what apostle Paul meant in Verse below?
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” – apostle Paul (Colossians 2:16, KJV)
Reply
This time I will quote St. Justin Martyr (100AD to 165AD) and St. Irenaeous of Lyons (140AD to 202AD) regarding this Topic and we ‘preach the SAME thing’ (as per principle on 1 Corinthians 1:10-KJV too).
It CANNOT be that these two earliest saints (after the apostles of Christ & their direct prebysters themselves) could have ‘misunderstood’ this Topic.
Please consider:
1) Justin’s Dialogue with the Jew-Trypho
All quotes from Justin are from the Translation Source below:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
Trypho: ‘If, then, you are willing to listen to me (for I have already considered you a friend), first be circumcised, then observe what ordinances have been enacted with respect to the Sabbath, and the feasts, and the new moons of God; and, in a word, do all things which have been written in the law: and then perhaps you shall obtain mercy from God’
Trypho: ‘But this is what we are most at a loss about: that you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified, you yet expect to obtain some good thing from God, while you do not obey His commandments. Have you not read, that soul shall be cut off from his people who shall not have been circumcised on the eighth day?’
(i) Justin claims that the Sabbath of the New Covenant are NOT the current earthly sabbaths as it is observed by Jews or Christians now.
Justin: “I also adduced another passage in which Isaiah exclaims: “‘Hear My words, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, … You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.”
(ii) Justin affirms that that we do NOT observe those rites which do not harm us,– speaking of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts.
Justin: “For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,–namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us,–I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?”
(iii) Justin implies that there is NO Circumcision, NO Sabbaths NOR Tithes even for Gentile Believers (Gentile Christians)
Justin: “This circumcision is not, however, necessary for all men [including Gentiles], but for you [Jews] alone … Noah was the beginning of our race; yet, uncircumcised, along with his children he went into the ark. Melchizedek, the priest of the Most High, was UNCIRCUMCISED; to whom also Abraham the first who received circumcision after the flesh, gave TITHES, and he blessed him: after whose order God declared, by the mouth of David, that He would establish the everlasting priest.
Therefore to YOU [Jews] ALONE this circumcision was necessary, in order that the people may be no people, and the nation no nation; as also Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, declares. Moreover, all those RIGHTEOUS MEN already mentioned, though they kept NO SABBATHS, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses, under whom your nation appeared unrighteous and ungrateful to God, making a calf in the wilderness: wherefore God, accommodating Himself to that nation, enjoined them also to offer sacrifices, as if to His name, in order that you might not serve idols. Which precept, however, you have not observed; nay, you sacrificed your children to demons. And you were commanded to keep Sabbaths, that you might retain the memorial of God. For His word makes this announcement, saying, ‘That ye may know that I am God who redeemed you.’.”
Justin confirms in the above that the believing Jews may continue to ‘keep the Law of Moses’ (Acts 21:24) but the Gentile believers observe ‘no’ such thing (Acts 21:25) beyond the Decision of the Apostolic Council in Acts 15.
Please notice carefully that Justin implies that there is NO Sabbaths NOR Tithes observance for ‘Gentile believers’ (or all men in general) and though he quotes Melchizedek in the above passage, he NEVER uses ‘Melchizedek receiving tithes from Abraham to enforce tithing doctrine toward Gentile believers’ as some Modern Denominations do.
Can you REALLY see who is teaching ‘falsely’ now? Shocked?
(iv) Justin explains that there is NO such thing as an ETERNAL LAW regarding ENFORCING the LAW of MOSES Contents such as Sabbaths, Circumcision, Tithing etc., Generally.
Justin: “Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye pay TITHE of mint and rue… For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done FOOLISHLY in ADDING some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements’.”
Justin: “But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd…. Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or Of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham.”
(v) Justin explains that even if the Jewish believers (i.e. those ‘who are descended from Jacob’ in the flesh) fail to comply by the Law of Moses, they will still get Salvation due to believing in Christ.
Justin: “I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts.”
(vi) Trypho accuses Justin of ‘skipping’ the Sabbath (or Law observing Scripture) to fit his own interpretation.
Trypho: “Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: ‘If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'”
Justin: “For they are all gone aside,’ He exclaims, ‘they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. … So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it…. He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His…. Or why did He not teach those–who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths–to keep these institutions?”
(vii) Justin explains the ‘Sunday’ (the ‘Day after the Sabbath’) to be different and NOT the same in which Christians may willingly gather (NOT a religious obligation).
Justin: “the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, … He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, … The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first.”
(viii) Trypho asks if Gentile-Christians who observe the Sabbath etc. will be saved or not?
Trypho: “But if some one, knowing that this is so, after he recognises that this man is Christ, and has believed in and obeys Him, wishes, however, to observe these [institutions], will he be saved?”
Justin replies ‘his opinion’ under the condition that ‘if such a weak Gentile Christian doesn’t try to enforce such observance upon others’:
Justin: “In my opinion, Trypho, such an one will be saved, if he does not strive in every way to persuade other men,–I mean those Gentiles who have been circumcised from error by Christ, to observe the same things as himself, telling them that they will not be saved unless they do so. This you did yourself at the commencement of the discourse, when you declared that I would not be saved unless I observe these institutions.”
Justin is questioned regarding ‘his opinion’ above in that a Gentile believer who keeps the Law of Moses in some way (e.g. the ‘Messianic Jews’) may be saved too.
Trypho: “Why then have you said, ‘In my opinion, such an one will be saved,’ unless there are some who affirm that such will not be saved?”
Justin: “But if, Trypho,” I continued, “some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them.
But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved.
Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved, and especially those who have anathematized and do anathematize this very Christ in the synagogues, and everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire. For the goodness and the loving-kindness of God, and His boundless riches, hold righteous and sinless the man who, as Ezekiel tells, repents of sins; and reckons sinful, unrighteous, and impious the man who fails away from piety and righteousness to unrighteousness and ungodliness. Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, ‘In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you.’ ”
(ix) Who is the Weak vs Strong Gentile Christian?
Justin mentions that such Gentile Christians who keep the Law of Moses are not ‘strong Christians as they claim’ but are actually ‘weak Christians’ (please don’t get angry as it is NOT my words, but Justin’s).
Justin: “But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people’s hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho,” I continued, “some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them.”
2) St. Irenaeous of Lyons
All quotes from Iraneous are from the Translation Source below:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
Question
What does this Verse mean then if it does not refer to Sabbath Observance for Gentile Christians?
“So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.” (Hebrews 4:6, NASB)
Reply
This ‘Sabbath’ time refers to the Last Day of this Age when His 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ is Established here on this [Old] Earth itself (Revelation 20:4 – 6) as Irenaeous himself explains below:
Irenaeous: “And for this reason the Lord declared, “When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.” And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world [age] an hundred-fold, and in that [age] to come he shall inherit eternal [age-during] life.” For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the TRUE SABBATH of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.”
Irenaeous: “Now, in the preceding book I have shown that all the disciples of the Lord are Levites and priests, they who used in the temple to profane the SABBATH, but are blameless. Promises of such a nature, therefore, do indicate in the clearest manner the feasting of that creation in the kingdom of the righteous, which God promises that He will Himself serve.”
So it is clear that the Sabbath referred to in Hebrews 4:6 is certainly NOT your weekly Saturday/Sunday gathering.
[emphasis mine at times for clarity]
P/S: Does your church teach the ‘same’ regarding this Topic in regards to Justin and Irenaeous?
If all these are NOT important, why did Justin and Irenaeous write so much in regards to this Topic as opposed to the ‘Topic of Prosperity now on Earth – the Practical Life stuff’ (which is more popularly preached in ‘sermons’ in churches today) but these Heroes of Faith never discussed such Topics at all? Shocked again?
Please ponder a moment: Could they have gotten this ‘simple’ Topic Wrong and you are right when you teach contrarily to this? (both quoting these ‘same’ Verses?)
Did you notice that the Verses in 1 Corinthians 14:37, Acts 21:24 – 25, Acts 15, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:7 all point to Justin and Irenaeous being right?
I will believe your ‘modern interpretation’ if you can quote saints earlier than Justin & Irenaeous who are ‘bigger’ authorities in doctrine than them speaking the ‘same’ as you do from any ‘writing’. It doesn’t exist, right? See the problem here?
An Important Comment: Age-during or Eternal?
Both Justin and Irenaeous wrote in Koine Greek as per the New Testament Inspired Writing. So, Last but not least, please note that in the same breath, Justin calls these ‘eternal ordinances’ to be NOT observed anymore (implied) in his own words. Is this a contradiction? NO, simply because the actual Greek Word is ‘Aion or Eon’ or its Hebrew equivalent is ‘Olam’ which is ‘pertaining to the age’ or ‘to the age’ only where sometimes it is errorneously translated also as ‘world to come’ (instead of the correct, ‘age to come’).
Can you see that the LITERAL ‘age-during’ meaning of ‘aion or eon’ is established here by ‘Justin or Irenaeous own usage’ itself in their own writings implying that when these apply this word for the punishment of the Wicked (e.g. ‘age during chastisement’ in Matthew 25:46 using this same Greek word), it does NOT mean ‘eternal Hell or everlasting punishment’ but to that ‘particular age ONLY’.
Let’s not teach against these ‘actual authorities of doctrine’ lest we become ‘deceivers & impostors’ as it was Prophesied by the apostle of the Gentiles himself:
“But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” – apostle Paul (2 Timothy 3:13, NASB)
How am I the heretic if it is your church which teaches contrary to both Justin and Irenaeous regarding this Topic as well?
Who is the real Christian now?
As Charles Spurgeon said, ‘Discernment is not knowing between right & wrong but rather in knowing between right and almost right’.
In light of all these quotes & teachings by Justin & Irenaeous himself, is your ‘popular modern denomination’ (even though it may have 60 million converts or so) right or even ‘saved’? Please ponder ‘deeply’ before calling me a ‘heretic’.
Shalom
Two Resurrections – Man as Sheepfold1, Sheepfold2 and the Wicked
1) First Resurrection – Resurrection of the Just
Resurrection of the Just (His Bride, believers in Faith only, Sheepfold1 in John 10:14 – Revelation 20:4 – 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – 17) who come under NO afterlife Judgment (John 5:24) having been Judged on earth itself during their temporal lives prior (Hebrews 12:6, Revelation 3:19, Proverbs 3:12).
2) Second Resurrection – General Resurrection
General Resurrection toward Sheepfold2 in John 10:16 & the wicked (Revelation 20:7, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 – 29) followed by the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11 – 15, Romans 2:5 – 8,) to the Jew first (Matthew 25:14 – 30, Romans 2:9 – 12, Romans 2:17 – 25) and Gentile next (Matthew 25:31 – 46, Romans 2:13 – 16, Romans 2:26 – 29).
Against Heresies (Example):
“Irenaeus declares that the Antichrist’s future three-and-a-half-year reign, when he sits in the temple at Jerusalem, will be terminated by the second advent, with the resurrection of the just, the destruction for the wicked, and the millennial reign of the righteous. The general resurrection and the judgment follow the descent of the New Jerusalem at the end of the millennial kingdom.”
Source:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Irenaeus#Time.2C_Times_and_Half_a_Time
Conclusion
“Why should any living mortal, or any man, Offer complaint in view of his sins?” (Lamentations 3:39, NASB)
How do we know that the ‘General Resurrection’ which is after about 1000 years from the First Resurrection contains Sheepfold2 to mean the ‘righteous who did NOT believe in Lord Jesus Christ during their earthly lives prior’?
Two ancient quotes prove this Irrefutably (below, one from Justin Martyr & the other from Shepherd of Hermas which reveals that to such a ‘righteous who did not believe in Christ on Earth prior, these will believe Him in the afterlife AFTER Seeing Him’ or ‘hearing about Him there’, agreeing to the Mystery in John 3:14 – 15 and John 6:40), please consider:
1) Justin Martyr implies the existence of Sheepfold2.
(i) A Quote:
‘In the early Church, Justin Martyr, a Church Father, taught that those who lived according to the logos are Christians, though they might not know about Jesus Christ.’
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_of_the_unlearned
(ii) From Justin’s own writing in his own words revealing this ‘secret’:
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
“But lest some should, without reason, and for the perversion of what we teach, maintain that we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius, and subsequently, in the time of Pontius Pilate, taught what we say He taught; and should cry out against us as though all men who were born before Him were irresponsible–let us anticipate and solve the difficulty.
We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious.
So that even they who lived before Christ, and lived without reason, were wicked and hostile to Christ, and slew those who lived reasonably. But who, through the power of the Word, according to the will of God the Father and Lord of all, He was born of a virgin as a man, and was named Jesus, and was crucified, and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, an intelligent man will be able to comprehend from what has been already so largely said. And we, since the proof of this subject is less needful now, will pass for the present to the proof of those things which are urgent.” – Justin Martyr (Chapter 46, CHAPTER XLVI — THE WORD IN THE WORLD BEFORE CHRIST)
Comment: Please note carefully the words such as ‘atheists’, ‘barbarians’ etc. to realize this fact.
Christian Theologians often remark that ‘this is for those before Christ’ and Justin refers to them as an example, yes. He does NOT limit it as per their claim. That’s a lie and it is EASILY REFUTED by Justin’s own words in the above (translation). How?
Justin’s quote ‘So that even they who lived before Christ … And we, since the proof of this subject is less needful now, will pass for the present to the proof of those things which are urgent’ —> means that he quotes ‘famous good people – generally’ such as Socrates etc. to be ‘saved’ to ‘prove his Biblical claim’.
Also, Justin’s quote ‘We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious.’ —> Justin is claiming the Salvation of Sheepfold2 in a ‘General Manner’ first here as he only describes the ‘example proof’ part next evidenced by the phrase ‘So that even they who lived before Christ..’ to ‘prove his general claim toward those of the past too’.
This proves that Justin is claiming the Salvation of Sheepfold2 in a ‘General Manner’ as per apostle Paul’s Revelation of the Judgment of God in Romans 2 itself agreeing to Lord Jesus Christ’s OWN WORDS in John 5:28 – 29, that these are those ‘who did GOOD deeds’ and Matthew 25:31 – 46 as well describes them as having done GOOD DEEDS only (yes, there is NO mention of ‘belief in Christ during the Great White Throne Judgment’ in Revelation 20:11 – 15, Matthew 25:31 – 46, Romans 2 and John 5:28 – 29 which Describe this ‘General Resurrection’ – where ‘obedience’ is measured with respect to GOOD DEEDS only & NOT belief at all – let’s NOT add to His Word, and this Proves that Justin Martyr is right).
2) The Shepherd of Hermas Book implies the existence of Sheepfold2 also.
The Description above is regarding the Lord’s Descent and Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead (1 Peter 3:18 – 20). The ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book (which Iraneous considers as Scripture) mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead even by the apostles, hence it’s NOT a one time event (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:5 – 6), to quote:
Shepherd of Hermas (1st or 2nd Century CE), Ninth Similitude IX, 16:5-7 Writes:
‘These, the apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and the faith of the Son of God, preached also… to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. Therefore, they went down with them into the water, and came up again… So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God.’
Source for that phD thesis by Marietjie du Toit (most likely an ‘eternal Hell’ believer):
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
Comment: I repeat, I may NOT agree with the author’s deductions on ‘who’s right or wrong’ but I stick to the historical quotes found here. Please note that in the quote above, the Shepherd of Hermas Book mentions that this Preaching is done by the ‘apostles and teachers’ (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:6 in that the ‘Gospel is indeed Preached to the Dead’) and it is NOT the Christ’s First Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead as 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 mentions proving Irrefutably that it was NOT a ‘one time occurrence only toward those who existed before Christ’ (as so easily & popularly erred against these TRUE & EARLIEST AUTHORITIES of Doctrine).
Can you SEE it now?
“Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6, NASB)
P/S: The ‘First and Best’ of Christians know this Mystery or Secret
Example: Sadhu Sundar Singh
It is well known that Sadhu Sundar Singh mentioned regarding “Hindu Saints” who have believed in Lord Jesus Christ in the ‘afterlife’ after enduring some Judgment for their ‘unbelief’ first (Hebrews 9:27) as illustrated in his visions of heaven and hell (in link below):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/sadhu-sundar-singh-a-christian-universalist/
Please note that Sadhu Sundar Singh’s visions are consistent with the Shepherd of Hermas afterlife Vision. These are Consistent with Christ Centered Universalism, for example:
All ‘Verses’ Quoted here are from this free online Translation of the Shepherd of Hermas (in link below) unless otherwise stated:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html
Example: Christians who backslide from the Truth – the Rejected Stones
Bible Verses:
“So then, you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:20 – 23, NASB)
“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES” (Hebrews 10:26 – 27, NASB)
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4 – 6, NASB)
26[103]:6 “And this I say not in reference to these days, that a man after denying should receive repentance; for it is impossible for him to be saved who shall now deny his Lord; but for those who denied Him long ago repentance seemeth to be possible. If a man therefore will repent, let him do so speedily before the tower is completed; but if not, he shall be destroyed by the women and put to death.” (Shepherd of Hermas)
What is meant by “no repentance is possible after death” for ‘such Christians’ described in Verses above?
To quote from the Shepherd of Hermas (‘not’ my opinion – please take note):
7[15]:3 But the others, which are near the waters and yet cannot roll into the water, wouldest thou know who are they? These are they that heard the word, and would be baptized unto the name of the Lord. Then, when they call to their remembrance the purity of the truth, they change their minds, and go back again after their evil desires.”
7[15]:4 So she finished the explanation of the tower.
7[15]:5 Still importunate, I asked her further, whether for all these stones that were rejected and would not fit into the building of the tower that was repentance, and they had a place in this tower. “They can repent,” she said, “but they cannot be fitted into this tower.
7[15]:6 Yet they shall be fitted into another place much more humble, but not until they have undergone torments, and have fulfilled the days of their sins. And they shall be changed for this reason, because they participated in the Righteous Word; and then shall it befall them to be relieved from their torments, if the evil deeds, that they have done, come into their heart; but if these come not into their heart, they are not saved by reason of the hardness of their hearts.”
The Shepherd of Hermas clearly reveals that “no repentance is possible” links to them NOT being part of the ‘tower of repentance’ which describes the HIGHER INHERITANCE LOT which is ‘only for believers in faith who obey His Commands’ (1 John 2:4, John 14:15).
The Shepherd of Hermas also describes that ‘these fallen believers of faith’ —> “Yet they shall be fitted into another place much more humble, but not until they have undergone torments, and have fulfilled the days of their sins.”
The Duration of their afterlife Judgment or Punishment is ’till the last penny only and NOT forever’, comparison phrases:
“And they shall be changed for this reason, because they participated in the Righteous Word; and then shall it befall them to be relieved from their torments, if the evil deeds, that they have done, come into their heart; but if these come not into their heart, they are not saved by reason of the hardness of their hearts.” [7[15]:6, Shepherd of Hermas] = “the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.” (Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 12:46, 57 – 59, NASB)
Source:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-visions/
Example, to quote (regarding afterlife Judgment and Repentance – Mystery of the Gospel being Preached to the Dead, 1 Peter 3:18 – 19, 1 Peter 4:5 – 6):
15[92]:2 “It was necessary for them,” saith he, “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life.
15[92]:3 So these likewise that had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. For before a man,” saith he, “has borne the name of [the Son of] God, he is dead; but when he has received the seal, he layeth aside his deadness, and resumeth life.
15[92]:4 The seal then is the water: so they go down into the water dead, and they come up alive. “thus to them also this seal was preached, and they availed themselves of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.”
15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching.
15[92]:6 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive.
15[92]:7 So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. For this cause also they came up with them, and were fitted with them into the building of the tower and were builded with them, without being shaped; for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal. Thou hast then the interpretation of these things also.” “I have, Sir,” say I.
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html
Comment:
The phrase “for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal” together with the phrase “came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God” with the phrase “others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive” ——> with the phrase “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life” —> seem to point 🤔 to “the Sheepfold2” (John 10:16) which refers to the “righteous in good works (e. g. John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2) who died without believing in Christ” but believed in Him ‘after seeing Him, John 6:40 (in the afterlife too, implied in John 3:14 – 15)’ as it is Discussed in Great Detail in Posts below regarding this Mystery for Edification:
Source:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-free-translation-secrets/
More details in line with this exegesis: Sheep and Goats – FAQ
Peace to you & Christ Triumphant!
Blessed be His Most Holy Name for His Unfathomable LOVE!
Lake of Fire Or Gehenna Final Judgment – Afraid or Not Afraid?
Introductory Question (rephrased)
Are you preaching fear based religion? Doesn’t that cause people to go mental?
Introductory Reply
Fear has its Purpose for Judgment.
You don’t need to be mental about it. Fear trains us to keep away from danger (its purpose). So, when we learn to ‘keep away from danger’ (being in a safe place such as ‘abiding in His Love’- John 15:9 which is in the Context of Obeying His Commands – John 15:10, Context of Consecutive Verses), fear comes to an ‘end’ (in Principle of 1 John 4:18 with John 14:15 or John 15:14 too).
For example in nature, when we see a lion, we run away (quoted in Principle of Romans 1:20 in that ‘His Attributes’, e.g. ‘fear when we see the lion (danger)’ is clearly seen & understood from nature as well).
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” – apostle Paul (Romans 1:20, NASB)
So, fear keeps us from sinning (and is a punishment for those who continue to sin, 1 John 4:18) but toward others, the particular ‘fear of God’ becomes the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7) and wisdom (Proverbs 9:10), who thereafter keep from sinning due to Love are being Perfected (1 John 4:18, John 14:15).
God created both the Lion and the Lamb.
Question
Doesn’t the Bible Teach “do not be afraid” cancelling out the “be afraid” part proving that God doesn’t Judge because He Loves all?
Reply
1 Corinthians 13 clearly mentions that His Love does NOT rejoice in evil. It’s Written in Scripture that His Judgment is done for the Purpose of Love too (that is to correct us as the Greek Word kolasin in ‘kolasin aionion’ or ‘age-during chastisement’ in Matthew 25:46 means).
The Word “Kolasin” is two edged meaning both ‘Retribution followed by Betterment’ (“Chastisement”) during Judgment where the ‘Retribution’s level of Pain’ is according to what one has done toward others only (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7, Judging Evil – Principle of ‘eye for an eye’, Luke 12:59’s till the Last Penny) which is followed by ‘His Refiner’s Fire which Purges or Purifies as well Medicinally thereafter’ (Malachi 3:2, Mark 9:49, the ‘Overcoming Evil with Good’ part – Romans 12:21).
Please note that the “worm does not die & the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:48) is Written in the Context of “Everyone will be salted with Fire” (Mark 9:49) which is for “Good” (Mark 9:50, proving the ‘Overcoming Evil context which is Good only’ – Romans 12:21) as the Context of Consecutive Verses in Mark Prove but this Fire ‘does NOT harm Sheepfold1 in any way as it does toward the rest’ (Revelation 20:6) and only ‘refines the quality of their work’ (1 Corinthians 3:13 toward the Work built on the Foundation of Lord Jesus Christ – 1 Corinthians 3:12 where the work is measured against the Gospel – 1 Corinthians 3:11, toward others too Romans 2:16).
Regarding being afraid vs not being afraid, please consider the following contextual argument:
To say that ‘we don’t need to fear God’ based on the ‘do not be afraid Verses’ is inaccurate & a popular fallacy by some preachers.
Here is what’s actually Written ‘accurately’:
“And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, BLB)
Please read Matthew 10 carefully where
(i) Do not be afraid – Earthly Context
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and can do nothing more.
Means that it refers to not being afraid on earth in one’s temporal life toward others (context) as the phrase ‘kill the body and do nothing more refers to earth only’.
(ii) Be afraid – Afterlife Context
But rather be afraid of Him Who is able to Destroy both Body and Soul in Gehenna (Lake of Fire).
Body and Soul (and not ‘body only’) can only be destroyed after the ‘resurrection for Judgment’ for the wicked (John 5:28 – 29) proving afterlife Context of Judgment in the flesh in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire.
Peace
Conclusion
1) Fate of the Wicked or Goats
Who are the ‘Wicked’ or ‘Goats’ reserved for the Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment during His Great White Throne Judgment in regards to their ‘resurrection of Judgment in the flesh’ (John 5:28 – 29) where both ‘body + soul only will have tribulation and be destroyed’ (Matthew 10:28, Romans 2:9) toward “the dead” (Revelation 20:11 – 15, 1 Peter 4:5, Romans 2, Matthew 24:31 – 46) but these formerly wicked will live first in their spirit-state (1 Peter 4:6) post this Judgment (1 Peter 4:5) where their spirit will only be saved in the Day of Lord Jesus post this ‘destruction of the flesh’ (1 Corinthians 5:5)?
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8, NASB)
Please note that those “unbelieving” in verse above is well deserved to be in the Lake of Fire since they refuse to believe in Him when the Gospel is Preached to them in the afterlife too (in Principle of the Mystery echoed in John 3:14 – 15, John 6:40 in the Context of ‘believing after seeing possibility’ – see point 4 below in regards to the ‘Gospel Preached to the Dead’).
2) What’s the meaning of the ‘Resurrection of Judgment’ for the Wicked (John 5:28 – 29) in the “flesh” (body + soul + spirit)?
To quote, a Definition first (by Justin Martyr, an early authority of doctrine):
Body, Soul Spirit – What are those in a Man?
To quote:
“The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved.” – Justin Martyr (Chapter 10 – The body saved, and will therefore rise, On the Resurrection)
Source:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm
Is the Soul Immortal? The soul is mortal just like the body according to Justin agreeing in that both the BODY and SOUL can be DESTROYED (i.e. CEASE to EXIST) as it is Declared by our Blessed Saviour Himself in regards to Gehenna (or Lake of Fire, in Matthew 10:28), to quote:
“But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.” – Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Tyrpho)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
More Details in regards to this?
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/last-afterlife-secrets-god-saves-from-hell/
3) What is the meaning of the Resurrection of Judgment toward the Destruction of the flesh?
Verses:
“and He gave Him authority to EXECUTE JUDGMENT, because He is the Son of Man. “Do NOT MARVEL at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the GOOD DEEDS to a Resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the EVIL DEEDS to a Resurrection of JUDGMENT.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:27 – 29, NASB)
“who [speak EVIL] will give account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. For to this end the GOSPEL was proclaimed even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God.” – apostle Peter (1 Peter 4:5 – 6, BLB)
“I have decided to deliver such a one to SATAN for the DESTRUCTION of HIS FLESH, so that HIS SPIRIT may be SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus.” – apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 5:5, NASB)
The “destruction of the flesh” (1 Corinthians 5:5) during the ‘Judgment in the flesh after the resurrection (body + soul + spirit), for Judgment toward the wicked’ (John 5:28 – 29) refers to their ‘body + soul only being destroyed or cease to exist during this Gehenna or Lake of Fire Final Judgment’ (so let’s be afraid of God! Matthew 10:28, 1 Peter 4:5) where their ‘spirit will be saved, yes they live in the spirit state first’ (1 Peter 4:6) on the Day of Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 5:5).
The actual person to whom apostle Paul gave up and judged toward this Final Gehenna Judgment in the Lake of Fire due to his wickedness and attitude of unrepentance prior (implied) caused apostle Paul to ‘Prophesy’ this ‘Final Judgment’ on him in 1 Corinthians 5:5 but later as some scholars say that ‘this sinful believer repented’ & hence that prophesied Judgment is cancelled (2 Corinthians 2:6 – 8).
Yes, apostle Paul distinctly mentions the existence in the ‘spirit state’ (proving the distinction of body + soul + spirit in a Man, generally in 1 Thessalonians 5:23) by the phrase ‘his spirit’, referring to the ‘wicked or fallen believer’s spirit’ in 1 Corinthians 5:5 which may be Saved on the Day of Lord Jesus (a specific future Time Period or Interval).
4) Gospel Preached to the Dead
Gospel is Preached to the Dead toward who are ‘not wicked’ but are of ‘Sheepfold2’ where though these did ‘not’ believe in Lord Jesus Christ during their earthy lives prior, they lived relatively-in-a-good manner agreeing to Gospel Principles. Hence, to them a chance may be given according to God’s Decision (no one can trick God).
Example of the past ‘(human) spirits in prison’ surviving in their ‘spirit state’ after the ‘destruction of their soul in Hades prior’ (implied toward these formerly disobedient ones fron the Time of Noah) is seen in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 where Lord Jesus Christ Descended & Preached the Gospel to them to be “Saved” if they received Him as even St. Irenaeous Reveals this rarely understood truth:
‘the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching (evangelizantem) His advent there also and the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him’ – St. Irenaeus of Lyons (160-230 CE), [Prescriptions Against Heretics IV, 27:211]
Source & more proofs regarding this from earliest authorities of doctrine:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-of-the-gospel-being-preached-to-the-dead/
This is NOT a one time occurence of the ‘Gospel being Preached to the Dead’ for those ‘before Christ only’ as popularly erred as even the Shepherd of Hermas Writing (which is next to New Testament Scripture, meaning that it is ‘higher’ than any early church leaders’ writing even endorsed by Pope Callixtus I, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeous too as ‘Scripture’) which reveals further that this ‘Gospel Preaching to the Dead’ was done next by the 40 apostles + teachers too after they died, to quote:
“15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching.” (Shepherd of Hermas Book)
Source:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-and-repentance-faq/
To Prove that the ‘Shepherd of Hermas Book’ cannot be taken word to word as Scripture, one has to quote a proper authority in Doctrine ‘before Pope Callixtus I, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeous’ as authority is by Precedence —-> which doesn’t exist. Can you see this Truth Irrefutably now? —–> This is in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20 when it relates to the meaning of Bible Verses such as 1 Peter 4:6 which proves the Shepherd of Hermas Verse above to be TRUE in that the ‘Gospel being Preached to the Dead’ is NOT a one time event (the first time was 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 by our Most Blessed Savior Himself).
Apostle Peter Reveals further that the “Gospel is Preached to the Dead” likewise in 1 Peter 4:6, generally causing the ‘spirit to be saved in that these live to God after the destruction or Judgment in the flesh where at most body + soul may be destroyed in the Final Judgment (Matthew 10:28) when He Returns to Judge the living and the dead’ (proving the Timeline of 1 Peter 4:5 to refer to the Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment – Revelation 20:11 – 15, Revelation 21:8) where these ‘spirits belonging to the formerly wicked’ may also ‘live or be saved’ likewise (1 Peter 4:6) in the Day of Lord Jesus (as apostle Paul Prophesied in 1 Corinthians 5:5 regarding this rarely known Mystery in regards to the Judgment of the Wicked or Fallen believers who share the ‘same fate in regards to the Final Judgment’, Luke 12:46).
So, 1 Corinthians 5:5 gives a rare glimpse of how apostle Paul understood the Final Gehenna Judgment in the Lake of Fire in the “resurrected flesh for Judgment” (John 5:28 – 29) toward the “unrepentant believers who share the same fate as the wicked” (Luke 12:46) in this ‘unkindled Lake of Fire of the Second Death’ (Context: Luke 12:49 first) which is only ’till the last penny, signifying an end’ (Luke 12:59) according to the ‘measurable punishments of few vs many’ and NOT ‘infinite or endless’ (in Luke 12:47 – 48) implying ‘limitedness again justly and NOT eternal Hell or everlasting punishment in any way’ which Christ Himself Implies as “Right” (Luke 12:57 toward the ‘punishment lasting till the last penny only’ in analogy of afterlife-Judgments in Luke 12:58 – 59 as the Context of Consecutive Verses prove Irrefutably).
5) My understanding
Based on the Verses and explanations above by early church authorities, I understand the quoted Verses as follows [with my emphasis – added for edification]:
I repeat the Verses above with [my emphasis for clarity – in brackets]:
“and He gave Him authority to EXECUTE JUDGMENT, because He is the Son of Man. “Do NOT MARVEL at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs [those who are NOT part of the First Resurrection, Revelation 20:5] will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the GOOD DEEDS [who believe after seeing Him, John 6:40 or hearing the Gospel in the afterlife, John 3:14 – 15 with 1 Peter 4:6] to a Resurrection of LIFE [toward Sheepfold2 as Sheepfold1 has Resurrected 1000 years earlier, Revelation 20:4 – 6], those who committed the EVIL DEEDS [against the Gospel, Romans 2:16] to a Resurrection of JUDGMENT [toward the Wicked, Romans 2:5 – 11].” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:27 – 29, NASB)
“who [speak EVIL] will give account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. For to this end [Purpose] the GOSPEL was proclaimed [Preached] even to THE DEAD [in the Afterlife Regions, e.g. Hades], so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH [body + soul destroyed in Gehenna as per Matthew 10:28 OR their soul destroyed there now with their spirit having the potential of being saved from the prisons of Hades as per 1 Peter 3:18 – 20], but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God [either ‘after enduring the Judgment for their unbelief & sins for Sheepfold2 in Principle of Hebrews 9:27 as it is possible now as per the case in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20 as Christ has Come’ or for the ‘wicked only post Lake of Fire Judgment as the Context of 1 Peter 4:5 warrants’ meaning that apostle Peter is implying that even in the ‘worst case scenario of Last Gehenna Judgment, their spirit will live after the ‘body + soul is destroyed’ in Judgment in the future Resurrected flesh or ‘if the soul dies and is destroyed in the current Hades Judgment’].” – apostle Peter (1 Peter 4:5 – 6, BLB)
“I have decided to deliver such a one to SATAN [now, for afterlife Judgment in Hades, Luke 16:19 – 31] for the DESTRUCTION of HIS FLESH [the person gets punished bodily till he dies on earth while his soul gets destroyed or dies at Hades eventually], so that HIS SPIRIT may be SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus [his spirit is saved on that particular Day of either His Advent on a White Horse or His Advent on His Great White Throne or the a Day after the Lake of Fire ‘age-during chastisement – Matthew 25:46’ – I can’t be sure of ‘which Day’ – where this fallen believer may have to wait in whatever state or regions as per the ‘formerly disobedient (human) spirits in prison’ in the past too from the time of Noah who waited for Christ’s First Advent in 1 Peter 3:18 – 20′].” – apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 5:5, NASB)
6) Age-During Punishment vs Age-During Rewards
[The Popular error and fallacy is to translate this Greek Word Aion or Eon as ‘eternal’ and claim that ‘these early church leaders taught eternal Hell’]
Question
So, did these early church leaders mean ‘age-during’ or ‘eternal’ where each employs the same Greek term ‘aion or eon’?
Explanation
Example of Early Church Leaders Quotes:
“He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal [age-during] sensibility, into everlasting [age-during] fire with the wicked devils.” – Justin Martyr (First Apology 52)
Please note that the word ‘Immortality’ and ‘age-during’ which is translated as ‘eternal’ in such quotes exist in the above within the ‘same sentence’ (Yes, ‘Immortality or Incorruptibility’ is a different Greek word as found in 1 Corinthians 15 or in the ‘same sentence’ with ‘age-during life’ proving that these two are DIFFERENT WORDS which exists in the Bible Verse in Romans 2:7 itself – in case you didn’t ‘realize it’).
Meaning?
eternal [age-during] sensibility into everlasting [age-during] fire = Resurrected for Judgment (John 5:28 – 29) to endure to the age for their body + soul where this ‘sensibility’ or ‘consciousness’ lasts only till when the ‘body (Romans 6:23) + soul (Ezekiel 18:4)’ which sinned ‘dies’ (yes, each component as the Verses imply) or ‘ceases to exist’ or ‘destroyed’ (Matthew 10:28) proving by usage here itself that ‘age-during is NOT eternal’.
As explained earlier, Justin and Irenaeous own quotes itself explains them to refer to the annihilation of the ‘body + soul’ which proves that they never understood the meaning of ‘Aion or Eon’ to mean ‘eternal’ but ‘age-during only’ as per their own words below:
(i) Justin on the Annihilation of Body + Soul agreeing to Matthew 10:28
“But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.” – Justin Martyr (Fifth Chapter on the Dialogue)
Comment:
Justin clearly believed that at death the soul goes to an intermediate place to await resurrection and judgment. Once again, we defer our discussion of this point until later. For now it will suffice to say that Justin also, just as clearly, believed in the annihilation of the wicked. He mentions the fact that only some worthy souls “never die”. Others, he says, exist only “so long as God wills them to exist and undergo punishment.” To put this the other way around, Justin must mean that after a time of punishment, when God no longer wills the wicked to live, they will simply cease to exist. Justin does elsewhere suggest that the period of conscious punishment of the wicked is quite long, being “not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years” , but longer. The wicked do however, eventually die.
Source:
https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/justin-martyr-immortality-soul/
(ii) Irenaeous on the Annihilation of Body + Soul agreeing to Matthew 10:28
“It is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved … [who] shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it … deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever … shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.” (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Against Heresies)
We reject the quotes which are NOT written in Greek because it disagrees to the actual word found in New Testament Scripture (our Immovable Base).
Comment:
Taken at face value, Irenaeus seems to be saying that although God would that the saved live forever, everlasting life will be withheld from the unsaved. Conditionalists today could hardly put it more clearly, that whereas “continuance … [and] length of days for ever and ever” will be gifted to the redeemed of God, those who reject him will not receive “continuance … [and] length of days for ever and ever.” The only alternative is that they will die, never to live again. Consequently, as the New Catholic Encyclopea reads, “From time to time there has recurred the idea of conditional immortality … Irenaeus said that the soul is not immortal by nature, but it can become immortal if it lives according to God’s law.”
Source:
http://rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/03/deprived-of-continuance-irenaeus-the-conditionalist/
Who is right then?
Firstly, we reject the quotes which are NOT written in Greek because it disagrees to the actual word found in New Testament Scripture (our Immovable Base).
How do I know that it’s age-during and NOT eternal as per the ‘Professor of Koine Greek’s claim’?
Let’s call the current age as AGE1 which has an end (Matthew 13:49). So, does the next age have an end too or is it eternal?
Simple, I will use the Bible ONLY to refute this. Please note that the ‘same root Greek Word Aion or Eon’ exists in both Matthew 25:46 (as a ‘singular age’) and Ephesians 2:7 (as a ‘plural – ages’). Can you see it?
This means that the ‘next age to come’ (AGE2) —> where the righteous gain rewards of inheritance (Luke 18:30) while the wicked gain their part in the Lake of Fire (Matthew 25:46) —-> is NOT eternal simply because —> there are “ages to come” (Ephesians 2:7, call it AGE2, AGE3, etc.).
So for AGE3 to exist (implied by the Plural in Ephesians 2:7), the next age or AGE2 must END. Since Matthew 25:46 refers to the punishment in AGE2, this punishment or life is NOT eternal either. The life spoken of in AGE2 toward the righteous transcends further to greater Glory and sometimes unrevealed things (in Principle of 1 Corinthians 2:9 & John 17:3 in Context of John 17:2 toward ALL FLESH too – Shocked? There’s more).
Ever wondered what’s your best professor’s argument against the claim above?
The cannot refute it and so they claim that the ‘ages to come’ is just a ‘figure of speech denoting the richness’. I mean, ‘seriously, a professor of linguistics?’ Can’t you see that Ephesians 2:7 is a FACTUAL Statement and NOT a linguistic fantasy you claim it to be?
Do you dare claim that the phrase ‘ages to come’ in Ephesians 2:7 is just a ‘linguistic fantasy’ which does ‘not prove the existence of at least two other ages to come’ as per the LITERAL meaning of this FACTUAL Verse?
Are you sure that in the presence of our Blessed Saviour, Lord Jesus Christ —> apostle Paul is going to say, ‘well done, professor; you understood my figure of speech to mean that there are NO ages to come’? Let’s be ‘wise’.
“who [Sheepfold1] may not receive back manifold more in this time [Times of the Kingdom during His 1000 years Millennial Reign on the Last Day of this Current AGE1 itself – Revelation 20:4 – 6] , and in the coming age [AGE2], life age-during [in AGE2].” – Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 18:30, YLT)
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during [in AGE2], but the righteous to life age-during [in AGE2].” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:46, YLT)
“so that in the AGES to COME [Future Ages, Plural in Koine Greek implying at least TWO future ages, AGE2, AGE3], He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” – apostle Paul (Ephesians 2:7, NASB)
Surprisingly, St. Irenaeous seems to teach implying ‘age by age reward too’ (from this AGE1 to AGE2, next) agreeing to this exegesis Perfectly, to quote:
” … at the Resurrection of the Just [First resurrection, Revelation 20:4 – 6].” And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world [age, AGE1] an hundred-fold, and in that [age] to come [AGE2] he shall inherit eternal [age-during] life [in AGE2 as well].” For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day [Last Day of this AGE1, called the ‘Day of the Age’ – 2 Peter 3:18 using YLT Translation] ,…” – St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Chapter 32:2, Against Heresies)
7) Last Day and its Two Prophesied Resurrections
The Last Day is when all Resurrection happens for all men (some to life while others to Judgment in the ‘flesh’ or ‘resurrected body’ where the ‘soul gets a body’ —> where only for those inheriting the ‘resurrection to life’ during this specific Last Day Time Period, these obtain the ‘spiritual body to live on earth’ too chiefly, 1 Corinthians 15:44 of ‘differing Glory’, as God Wills 1 Corinthians 15:38 – 49).
In John 5:25, Christ mentions two hours relating to the Last Day since these prophesied resurrection (Daniel 12:2 or Revelation 20:4 – 6) only happens on the Last Day –> the “hour now is” and “hour is coming” where
“hour now is” (John 5:25 only) = start hour at the Last Day (First Resurrection only, Revelation 20:4 – 6 toward Sheepfold1- John 10:14 called the ‘Resurrection of the Just’, Luke 14:14 and NOT the ‘resurrection of the Just and unjust’ which is next).
“hour is coming” (John 5:28 – 29) = end hour of this same Last Day (the resurrection where both the remaining righteous of Sheepfold2-John 10:16 and the wicked are raised simultaneously, John 5: 28 – 29, Daniel 12:2).
In Acts 24:15, apostle Paul shares the ‘SAME Hope’ in the Pharisees where they believed in the Daniel 12:2 resurrection where the ‘just and the unjust’ (i.e. the General Resurrection as Irenaeous calls it) where both the ‘remaining righteous and wicked from the tombs’ get resurrected simultaneously (agreeing to John 5:28 – 29) which does NOT refer to the First Resurrection (which refers only to His Bride, Revelation 20:4 – 6) as this was only revealed in obvious detail after Christ was Manifested.
This HOPE is for ‘the remaining all men’ (Acts 24:15) but to be part of the First Resurrection is a ‘hope ONLY for the believers of faith, Sheepfold1’ (as 1 Thessalonians 4:13 proves Irrefutably as it refers to the First Resurrection implicitly in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – 17 next in the Context of Consecutive Verses).
Also, St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself (who was a hearer of Polycarp the disciple of John who wrote the Book for Revelation) says this same thing regarding the Two Resurrections with a Gap of about 1000 years as mentioned in Revelation 20: 5 to which your exegesis contradicts all this.
So, Irenaeous (third from John who wrote the Book of Revelation) did not understand the 70AD theory? Isn’t that a Joke? I cannot accept such absurdities. Sorry.
Daniel’s Prophecy comes in Pieces where it must be harmonized with New Testament Verses as already demonstrated in my posts.
The 70AD Theorists or Preterists completely ignore the phrases ‘hour now is’ vs ‘hour is coming’ in regards to the Two resurrections for the righteous itself (implied in John 5:25 for Sheepfold1 vs Sheepfold2 respectively) with the 1000 year gap mentioned in Revelation between these Two Resurrections (the First Resurrection vs the General Resurrection – Revelation 20:5), in which Irenaeous does NOT err. You guys erred, big time.
Here’s a one line refutation of Preterism type Universalism which assumes that there is only one resurrection of the dead: ‘Explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13 only please in which the rest of the dead have NO Hope?’
How do we explain that Biblically with Verses?
Please explain only using 1 Thessalonians 4 itself if possible regarding which NO Hope is being referred to in the context of the ‘resurrection of the dead’ since it is pointed to ‘the dead’ in HOPE of a Particular type of Resurrection (a simple and obvious implication) where 1 Thessalonians 4:14 – 17 itself points to this HOPE being only fulfilled when ‘all believers’ are ‘numbered’.
Here’s a non-contradictory explanation:
Yes, the rest of the dead have NO Hope (you ignore this Verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:13) which points to a particular Resurrection only (1 Thessalonians 4:14 – 17), the First Resurrection which comprises of ‘believers in faith only’ (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which refutes the ‘just and unjust resurrection simultaneously in Daniel 12:2 or John 5:28 – 29’ (the General Resurrection) implying that these are Two Different Resurrections as Irenaeous himself explained being separated by 1000 years (Revelation 20:5).
Yes, what is this HOPE reserved ‘only for the believers in faith’ (Sheepfold1) as per 1 Thessalonians 4:13?
Hoping for the First Resurrection which can only be fulfilled when ‘all believers of faith are numbered’ (1 Thessalonians 4:14 – 17, Hebrews 11:39 – 40, Revelation 20:4 – 6) in which the rest of the dead cannot be part of it (Revelation 20:5).
Here’s a word of Wisdom:
To ignore the ‘little things’ causes us to ‘miss the big things’.
I don’t agree with you and will stick to Irenaeous and the ‘little details’ pointed out here with NO contradictions. Thanks for sharing your view though (for comparison).
8) God’s Judgment till the Victory of Universal Reconciliation
“A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth Judgment unto Victory.” (Matthew 12:20, KJV)
God’s Righteous Judgment is to END all evil and to RECONCILE ALL CREATION (Colossians 1:16) back to HIMSELF eventually (Colossians 1:20).
This is what it means to speak of ‘Righteous Judgment’:
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:24, KJV)
The ‘Inescapable Love of God’ (as Professor Thomas Talbott calls it) is described by Irenaeous himself, to quote:
In the fourth Pfaffian fragment ascribed to St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Stieren I, 889), Irenaeous says that ‘Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil—-and to reconcile all things– from Col. i:20–that there may be an end of all impurity.’
Source and further discussion:
God’s Justice is Good & Logical.
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