Choose the Category for Gospel and Mathematics HERE

Non Elect Salvation

Water of Life – Two References 1000 years Apart in Chiliasm Timeline and meaning of Unsaved with the Shepherd of Hermas, St. Papias and St. Irenaeous

Last Updated: 31 Oct 2022

 

 

Math Olympiad Class Advertisement

 

I Teach Math Olympiad, Add Maths or any School Math too for a Living and please WhatsApp me at  +6010 – 8803 763 to find out more and here’s my latest CV (as of 10 September 2022)  for your kind consideration:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cJU2fvEAwlXP8D18zQbVXtfV8zTEDHWC/view?usp=sharing

 

 

Facebook Link for Free Math Olympiad Classes too:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161561367422784

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

WEEKLY MATH OLYMPIAD GROUP CLASSES Online Via Zoom

 

1) Saturdays (11:45 am to 12:45 pm)

for Primary School [Ages 9 – 12]

 

2) Sundays (11:45 am to 12:45 pm)

for Secondary School [Ages 13 to 15]

 

Note: Those outside these age ranges

are welcome to join too.

Eligibility: All are Welcome

No. of students per class: limit as per Zoom

 

3) ZOOM Login Details for Online Class

 

App: Zoom

Meeting ID: 404 801 7616

Password: jonathan

 

Note: Classes are every week (once per week in the specified times)

and the first classes are on 19 and 20 March 2022 respectively.

 

4) Fee: FREE

 

(But if you can afford it, you can support by

contributing any amount directly to my bank account):

Name: Jonathan Ramachandran

Bank: Public Bank

Account Number: 4736589105 (Savings)

Reference: Math/Olympiad Class

Thank You!

 

5) Paid Classes

 

Paid one to one online Zoom Classes are also available and uses “Different Materials”.

If keen, please WhatsApp me (no calls) for more info at +6010 – 8803 763

 

6) My Latest CV for your kind consideration may be found in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eS5b0G9HTwKkITELhpUXalDbApS158m2/view?usp=sharing

 

Source Post:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/10161561367422784

 

See You there!

 

In short, there is “no” ‘Prosperity Kingdom’ now on earth by “Christ” before “He Returns” on a “White Horse”:
 
“… And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. …” (Revelation 19:11, KJV)
 
Peace to you

#BibleandChurchFathersQuoteBook

 

Latest Update: 5 Dec 2022

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Page of Contents for this #BibleandChurchFathersQuoteBook

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#SafeRouteScripturallyBook

 

Latest Update: 31 Oct 2022

 

This book is written to explain some key Christian Doctrine position we take to be Safe Scripturally highlighting the Risks with Bible Verses for those who do otherwise. This is important to as a Christian because we do not want Christ Questioning us one day regarding ‘Why we didn’t warn others?’ based on Verses below:

 

“… When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and YOU DO NOT SPEAK TO WARN THE WICKED FROM HIS WAY, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND. Nevertheless IF YOU WARN the WICKED to TURN FROM HIS WAY, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but YOU HAVE DELIVERED YOUR SOUL. …” (Ezekiel 33:8 – 9, NKJV)

 

This does not necessarily mean that the opposite positions to what we propose as the Safe Route Scripturally in this Book must we wrong but rather in some cases it could be so if God permitted it. However the risk of the opposite positions is still there because we prove our position with Bible Verses and the opposite positions usually pertain to New Modern Ways which some Christians have claimed that God told them do so especially based on the Progressive Revelation Movement which we do not support.

 

Since only God Knows whether their claims are true or not, we do not judge those Christians letting God Judge them alone. However, we also point out to them to have respect for these First Ways of the Church especially which are Written in Bible Verses because the Doctrinal Position we demonstrate is already Plainly Written in Holy Scripture and so it is already 100% Approved by New Testament Scripture and the First Churches which obeyed it are already Saved by Practicing it and that’s why we seek to Imitate Scripture likewise.  Big number of Christians following a Doctrine or believing in something is not necessarily a sign of Truth which is easy to prove for any Protestants since no matter what blessing or evangelism they claim, the Roman Catholics beat them in financial blessings to number of souls and so by that logic, does it justify Praying to Virgin Mary? So claiming such proofs is not Biblical but rather we point to Bible Verses only for each claim.

 

 

 

The free pdf may be found in link below:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HUXXa2kgpImEpVWFg4AN0SBc0x4ulSLn/view?usp=share_link

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Prosperity Testimony” – Questions to Ponder

 

A General Scenario: Imagine your country has majority of religion A and race B but a person of religion C and race D becomes its king by Democracy. So if that “king” comes and gives a testimony of his life, would you leave your religion and convert to that instead?

 

This is a reason “why” I do “not” believe in any “Prosperity” as a

“sign of truth”.

 

The “king” may be from subrace D1 while the others from his native country may be from subrace D2, D3, … where even among them they won’t support those of another subrace easily or if any from their subrace is not of the same religion of C, can you see it?

 

In fact, they won’t even allow subrace D2, D3, etc. to marry those of subrace D1 or some selected subrace only to do so. But despite such racism hidden within their own hearts even, they can be among the “richest” people in the world too. God Will Reveal everything One Day.

 

While people from race D or others wish to be “king” in the land of majority religion A and race B, in their own “native land/motherland” NO ONE from race B or others who do not believe in religion C will ever be a “king” there (in their “motherland”) by “democracy”, an irony isn’t it?

 

The only “Genuine Truth” here I see is that the people of majority religion A and race B have been able to PRACTICE JUSTICE beyond their own religion A and race B which itself puts them at a MORAL LEVEL that is UNSURPASSED by their other counterparts. The day the others can do similarly in not just “appointing a king” but also in “other matters of business and life” then they get closer to “God’s Truth”. Till then, it’s just a “prosperity game” which is an “illusion” which destroys one in the “spirit world”.

 

A similar thing can be seen in regards to “Prosperity Churches” vs “Poorer Churches” likewise in analogy.

 

That’s why Christ put the Command of PERFECTION not as “prosperity” but the CHARITY DOCTRINE:

 

“… 21JESUS said to him, “IF you want to be PERFECT, go, SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away SORROWFUL, for he had GREAT POSSESSIONS. 23Then JESUS said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is HARD for a RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 24And AGAIN I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. …” (Matthew 19:21 – 24, NKJV)

 

That’s why in CHRIST’s OWN WORDS here we see that the GREATEST NUMBER is “ZERO” for those who can do “ZERO PROSPERITY” of “… SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME. …” which I CANNOT DO (so even a scrap of heaven or at the final new earth would suffice for me) but the Greatest Fathers of the Church the world has even known (as I have quoted say in the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook) have done it remarkably. Please note that letting go of wealth and living like a hermit does NOT count much if the “wealth was left to the family” earlier as that person by relative measure did NOT give anything to the poor. I mean the best is to give some to family and according to one’s ability give to the poor as well.

 

An Edifying Comment: Can the country of origin of such persons allow those NOT of same race NOR of same religion to hold such portfolio likewise? (or will they never vote for such even if the candidate is good? NOT just in POLITICS but any field too like for example in Education even they grab the “paying teaching opportunities to themselves instead of the candidate of best qualification among them even” as that’s their “moral level even toward same race but different religion” is only at that level of “prejudice” even. So, Let all Answer God One Day).

 

Conclusion

 

You see it is People who send themselves to “Hell” (even if “Eternal so be it”) due to “their own injustice and unholiness within them” as these few points in comparison itself shows.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Especially those which affect the “future in the Spirit World and beyond” after we die toward the “Resurrection”.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christianity with St. Irenaeus of Lyons – Just Deeper – with Possibilities and Warnings

 

Here I will be quoting some quotes of St. Irenaeous which I have never quoted in any of my previous books nor write-ups even before to get deeper into First Christianity.

 

I will do it in four sections namely:

 

1) Free Will (Free Choice Quotes)

 

2) Chiliasm Timeline Quotes

 

3) Charity Doctrine Quotes

 

4) Non Elect Salvation (Believing after seeing) Possibility Quotes

 

 

Let’s repeat each of the above with the quotes themselves next.

 

1) Free Will (Free Choice Quotes)

 

  1. i) Warning that the WEDDING GARMENT is WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS without which the SPIRIT OF GOD DOES NOT REST UPON US which Irenaeous quotes for the WEDDING of the LAMB TIMELINE which is the FIRST RESURRECTION in his other quotes

 

“…  6. Still further did He also make it manifest, that we ought, after our calling, to be also adorned with WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS, so that the SPIRIT OF GOD MAY REST UPON US; for this is the WEDDING GARMENT, of which also the apostle speaks, “Not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up by immortality.” But those who have indeed been called to God’s supper, yet have not received the Holy Spirit, because of their wicked conduct “shall be,” He declares, “cast into outer darkness.” He thus clearly shows that the very same King who gathered from all quarters the faithful to the marriage of His Son, and who grants them the incorruptible banquet, [also] orders that man to be cast into outer darkness who has not on a wedding garment, that is, one who despises it. For as in the former covenant, “with many of them was He not well pleased; ” so also is it the case here, that “many are called, but few chosen.”

  1. Then, in the case of the publican, who ex celled the Pharisee in prayer, [we find] that it was not because he worshipped another Father that he received testimony from the Lord that he was justified rather [than the other]; but because with great humility, apart from all boasting and pride, he made confession to the same God. The parable of the two sons also: those who are sent into the vineyard, of whom one indeed opposed his father, but afterwards repented, when repentance profited him nothing; the other, however, promised to go, at once assuring his father, but he did not go (for “every man is a liar; ” “to will is present with him, but he finds not means to perform” ),-[this parable, I say], points out one and the same Father. Then, again, this truth was clearly shown forth by the parable of the fig-tree, of which the Lord says, “Behold, now these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig-tree, but I find none” (pointing onwards, by the prophets, to His advent, by whom He came from time to time, seeking the fruit of righteousness from them, which he did not find), and also by the circumstance that, for the reason already mentioned, the fig-tree should be hewn down. And, without using a parable, the Lord said to Jerusalem, `O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest those that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathereth her chickens trader her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house shall be left unto you desolate.” For that which had been said in the parable, “Behold, for three years I come seeking fruit,” and in clear terms, again, [where He says],” How often would I have gathered thy children together,” shall be [found] a falsehood, if we do not understand His advent, which is [announced] by the prophets-if, in fact, He came to them but once, and then for the first time. But since He who chose the patriarchs and those [who lived under the first covenant], is the same Word of God who did both visit them through the prophetic Spirit, and us also who have been called together from all quarters by His advent; in addition to what has been already said, He truly declared, “Many shall come from the east and from the west, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall go into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” If, then, those who do believe in Him through the preaching of His apostles throughout the east and west shall recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, partaking with them of the [heavenly] banquet, one and the same God is set forth as He who did indeed choose the patriarchs, visited also the people, and called the Gentiles. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 36))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103436.htm

 

Compare:

 

“… And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. …” (Revelation 19:8, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/revelation/19-8.htm

 

  1. ii) Free Will is NOT just a Doctrine in Works but also in Faith according to Irenaeous himself – so is John Calvin (Calvinism) going to be right or St. Irenaeous?

 

“… 5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee; ” thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth; ” and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.”

  1. Those, again, who maintain the opposite to these [`conclusions], do themselves present the Lord as destitute of power, as if, forsooth, He were unable to accomplish what He willed; or, on the other hand, as being ignorant that they were by nature “material,” as these men express it, and such as cannot receive His immortality. “But He should not,” say they, “have created angels of such a nature that they were capable of transgression, nor men who immediately proved ungrateful towards Him; for they were made rational beings, endowed with the power of examining and judging, and were not [formed] as things irrational or of a [merely] animal nature, which can do nothing of their own will, but are drawn by necessity and compulsion to what is good, in which things there is one mind and one usage, working mechanically in one groove (inflexibiles et sine judicio), who are incapable of being anything else except just what they had been created.” But upon this supposition, neither would what is good be grateful to them, nor communion with God be precious, nor would the good be very much to be sought after, which would present itself without their own proper endeavour, care, or study, but would be implanted of its own accord and without their concern. Thus it would come to pass, that their being good would be of no consequence, because they were so by nature rather than by will, and are possessors of good spontaneously, not by choice; and for this reason they would not understand this fact, that good is a comely thing, nor would they take pleasure in it. For how can those who are ignorant of good enjoy it? Or what credit is it to those who have not aimed at it? And what crown is it to those who have not followed in pursuit of it, like those victorious in the contest? …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103437.htm

 

“… 7. On this account, too, did the Lord assert that the kingdom of heaven was the portion of “the violent; “and He says, “The violent take it by force; ” that is, those who by strength and earnest striving axe on the watch to snatch it away on the moment. On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, “Know ye not, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest is temperate in all things: now these men [do it] that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as One beating the air; but I make my body livid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway.” This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam). And the harder we strive, so much is it the more valuable; while so much the more valuable it is, so much the more should we esteem it. And indeed those things axe not esteemed so highly which come spontaneously, as those which are reached by much anxious care. Since, then, this power has been conferred upon us, both the Lord has taught and the apostle has enjoined us the more to love God, that we may reach this [prize] for ourselves by striving after it. For otherwise, no doubt, this our good would be [virtually] irrational, because not the result of trial. Moreover, the faculty of seeing would not appear to be so desirable, unless we had known what a loss it were to be devoid of sight; and health, too, is rendered all the more estimable by an acquaintance with disease; light, also, by contrasting it with darkness; and life with death. Just in the same way is the heavenly kingdom honourable to those who have known the earthly one. But in proportion as it is more honourable, so much the more do we prize it; and if we have prized it more, we shall be the more glorious in the presence of God. The Lord has therefore endured all these things on our behalf, in order that we, having been instructed by means of them all, may be in all respects circumspect for the TIME TO COME and that, having been RATIONALLY taught to love God, we may continue in His perfect love: for God has displayed LONG-SUFFERING in the case of MAN’s APOSTASY; while man has been instructed by means of it, as also the prophet says, “THINE OWN APOSTASY shall HEAL THEE;  [Jeremiah 2:19]” God thus DETERMINING ALL THINGS BEFOREHAND [Ephesians 1:11] for the BRINGING of MAN to PERFECTION [Ephesians 1:9 – 10], for his edification, and for the revelation of His DISPENSATIONS, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the CHURCH may be FASHIONED after the IMAGE of His Son, and that MAN may FINALLY be brought to MATURITY at SOME FUTURE TIME, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103437.htm

 

Compare (Maybe this is a NON ELECT SALVATION TYPE Bible Verse?) quoted above too:

“… THINE OWN WICKEDNESS SHALL CORRECT THEE, AND THY BACKSLIDINGS SHALL REPROVE THEE:  know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts. …” (Jeremiah 2:19, KJV) Source: https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/2-19.htm

 

Note: On Page 1522 onward, I show that there are Two to FOUR Christianity Quotes by St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself using both the words CHURCH and MAN distinctly, where he refers to the CHURCH ONLY being MADE into the IMAGE of CHRIST [The SON of GOD] which is ELECT SALVATION while MAN in general being made to PERFECTION and to MATURITY (possibly SAVED) in the future AFTER JUDGMENT hence NON ELECT SALVATION if true, right? that their APOSTASY will CORRECT and HEAL them (be it if it is for all men or some men inclusive of the “NATIONS who are SAVED” earlier surely, right?)

 

 

 

iii) Free Will in Faith according to St. Irenaeous causes those who DID NOT BELIEVE to NOT PARTICIPATE in the FIRST RESURERCTION’S ROYAL WEDDING SUPPER of the LAMB

“… 3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9 but the man who does not obtain it is the cause to himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.

  1. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 39))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103439.htm

2) Chiliasm Timeline Quotes

 

  1. i) The BLESSING of FAITH PROMISE via Blessed ABRAHAM by FAITH is NOT received by ANY CHRISTIAN NOW (as the PROSPERITY GOSPEL errs claiming some of it is received now) but ONLY AFTER FIRST RESURRECTION during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of CHRIST and WEDDING of the LAMB only

“…  2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains stedfast. For thus He said: “Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even for ever.” And again He says, “Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee; ” and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: “I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates.” If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: “For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.” Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: “But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.” And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, “The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” And again, confirming his former words, he says, “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, fore-seeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.” Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 32))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103532.htm

  1. ii) FIRST RESURRECTION during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of CHRIST taught by the Earliest Champions of Faith who were direct disciples of the Apostles too

 

“… 4. And these things are bone witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled (suntetagme/na) by him. And he says in addition, “Now these things are credible to believers. And he says that, “when the traitor Judas did not give credit to them, and put the question, `How then can things about to bring forth so abundantly be wrought by the Lord? ‘the Lord declared, `They who shall come to these [times] shall see.'” When prophesying of these times, therefore, Esaias says: “The wolf also shall feed with the lamb, and the leopard shall take his rest with the kid; the calf also, and the bull, and the lion shall eat together; and a little boy shall lead them. The ox and the bear shall feed together, and their young ones shall agree together; and the lion shall eat straw as well as the ox. And the infant boy shall thrust his hand into the asp’s den, into the nest also of the adder’s brood; and they shall do no harm, nor have power to hurt anything in my holy mountain.” And again he says, in recapitulation, “Wolves and lambs shall then browse together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and the serpent earth as if it were bread; and they shall neither hurt nor annoy anything in my holy mountain, saith the Lord.” I am quite aware that some persons endeavour to refer these words to the case of savage men, both of different nations and various habits, who come to believe, and when they have believed, act in harmony with the righteous. But although this is [true] now with regard to some men coming from various nations to the harmony of the faith, nevertheless in the resurrection of the just [the words shall also apply] to those animals mentioned. For God is non in all things. And it is right that when the creation is restored, all the animals should obey and be in subjection to man, and revert to the food originally given by God (for they had been originally subjected in obedience to Adam), that is, the productions of the earth. But some other occasion, and not the present, is [to be sought] for showing that the lion shall [then] feed on straw. And this indicates the large size and rich quality of the fruits. For if that animal, the lion, feeds upon straw [at that period], of what a quality must the wheat itself be whose straw shall serve as suitable food for lions? …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 33))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103533.htm

 

 

 

 

 

iii) Earthly Jerusalem rebuilt with SINNERS and MORTALS too during the FIRST RESURRECTION and 1000 years Millennial Reign of CHRIST to fulfil JEWISH PROPHECIES

 

“… 4. Then again, speaking of Jerusalem, and of Him reigning there, Isaiah declares, “Thus saith the Lord, Happy is he who hath seed in Zion, and servants in Jerusalem. Behold, a righteous king shall reign, and princes shall rule with judgment” And with regard to the foundation on which it shall be rebuilt, he says: “Behold, I will lay in order for thee a carbuncle stone, and sapphire for thy foundations; and I will lay thy ramparts with jasper, and thy gates with crystal, and thy wall with choice stones: and all thy children shall be taught of God, and great shall be the peace of thy children; and in righteousness shalt thou be built up.” And yet again does he say the same thing: “Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and my people [a joy]; for the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Also there shall not be there any immature [one], nor an old man who does not fulfil his time: for the youth shall be of a hundred years; and the sinner shall die a hundred years old, yet shall be accursed [Isaiah 65:20]. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them themselves; and shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them themselves, and shall drink wine. And they shall not build, and others inhabit; neither shall they prepare the vineyard, and others eat. For as the days of the tree of life shall be the days of the people in thee; for the works of their hands shall endure.” …”  – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 34))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103534.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  1. iv) Earthly Jerusalem rebuilt with SINNERS and MORTALS too during the FIRST RESURRECTION and 1000 years Millennial Reign of CHRIST to fulfil JEWISH PROPHECIES happens NOT now as Roman Catholicism errs claiming the 1000 years is allegorical and happens now but rather only AFTER THE FINAL ANTICHRIST (which hasn’t occurred yet) as well as POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE TAUGHT

 

“… 1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: “When the cities” of the Gentiles “shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate.” “For, behold,” says Isaiah, “the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it.” And again he says, “Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God.” And when these things are done, he says, “God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.” “And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.” For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: “And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,” And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, “Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. …”  – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 33))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103535.htm

 

3) Charity Doctrine Quotes

 

  1. i) Absence of Charity Doctrine and LIVING a LUXURIOUS LIFE (as the PROSPERITY GOSPEL errs) can LEAD STRAIGHT to HELL as that is NOT a type of BELIEVING in CHRIST as that is equivalent to FORGETTING GOD

 

“… 3. But since the writings (literae) of Moses are the words of Christ, He does Himself declare to the Jews, as John has recorded in the Gospel: “If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me. But if ye believe not his writings, neither will ye believe My words.” He thus indicates in the clearest manner that the writings of Moses are His words. If, then, [this be the case with regard] to Moses, so also, beyond a doubt, the words of the other prophets are His [words], as I have pointed out. And again, the Lord Himself exhibits Abraham as having said to the rich man, with reference to all those who were still alive: “If they do not obey Moses and the prophets, neither, if any one were to rise from the dead and go to them, will they believe him.”

  1. Now, He has not merely related to us a story respecting a poor man and a rich one; but He has taught us, in the first place, that no one should lead a luxurious life, nor, living in worldly pleasures and perpetual feastings, should be the slave of his lusts, and forget God. “For there was,” He says, “a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and delighted himself with splendid feasts.”

Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken by Esaias: “They drink wine with [the accompaniment of] harps, and tablets, and psalteries, and flutes; but they regard not the works of God, neither do they consider the work of His hands.” Lest, therefore, we should incur the same punishment as these men, the Lord reveals [to us] their end; showing at the same time, that if they obeyed Moses and the prophets, they would believe in Him whom these had preached, the Son of God, who rose from the dead, and bestows life upon us; and He shows that all are from one essence, that is, Abraham, and Moses, and the prophets, and also the Lord Himself, who rose from the dead, in whom many believe who are of the circumcision, who do also hear Moses and the prophets announcing the coming of the Son of God. But those who scoff [at the truth] assert that these men were from another essence, and they do not know the first-begotten from the dead; understanding Christ as a distinct being, who continued as if He were impassible, and Jesus, who suffered, as being altogether separate [from Him]. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 2))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103402.htm

  1. ii) Absence of Charity Doctrine is linked to the “My House shall be called a House of Prayer Verse” which some “Priests” may profane by ignoring this Charity Doctrine Command and turn to some type of “Prosperity Lifestyle Teachings instead”

 

“…  7. But neither will these men be able to maintain that such words were uttered in an ironical manner, since it is proved to them by the words themselves that they were in earnest. For He who uttered them was Truth, and did truly vindicate His own house, by driving out of it the changers of money, who were buying and selling, saying unto them: It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves. Matthew 21:13 And what reason had He for thus doing and saying, and vindicating His house, if He did preach another God? But [He did so], that He might point out the transgressors of His Father’s law; for neither did He bring any accusation against the house, nor did He blame the law, which He had come to fulfil; but He reproved those who were putting His house to an improper use, and those who were transgressing the law. And therefore the scribes and Pharisees, too, who from the times of the law had begun to despise God, did not receive His Word, that is, they did not believe in Christ. Of these Esaias says: Your princes are rebellious, companions of thieves, loving gifts, following after rewards, not judging the fatherless, and negligent of the cause of the widows. Isaiah 1:23 And Jeremiah, in like manner: They, he says, who rule my people did not know me; they are senseless and imprudent children; they are wise to do evil, but to do well they have no knowledge. Jeremiah 4:22

 

  1. But as many as feared God, and were anxious about His law, these ran to Christ, and were all saved. For He said to His disciples: Go to the sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 10:6 which have perished. And many more Samaritans, it is said, when the Lord had tarried among them, two days, believed because of His words, and said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of your saying, for we ourselves have heard [Him], and know that this man is truly the Saviour of the world. John 4:41 And Paul likewise declares, And so all Israel shall be saved; Romans 11:26 but he has also said, that the law was our pedagogue [to bring us] to Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:24 Let them not therefore ascribe to the law the unbelief of certain [among them]. For the law never hindered them from believing in the Son of God; nay, but it even exhorted them Numbers 21:8 so to do, saying that men can be saved in no other way from the old wound of the serpent than by believing in Him who, in the likeness of sinful flesh, is lifted up from the earth upon the tree of martyrdom, and draws all things to Himself, John 12:32, John 3:14 and vivifies the dead. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 2))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103402.htm

iii) The GREATEST COMMANDMENT can ONLY be FULFILLED BEST with the Charity Doctrine Command to love one’s neighbour as one’s self to FOLLOW CHRIST and that the Charity Doctrine has a Mysterious Inheritance Promised which St. Ireneaous of Lyons calls as a share inthe portion belonging to the apostles”

 

“…  3. As in the law, therefore, and in the Gospel [likewise], the first and greatest commandment is, to love the Lord God with the whole heart, and then there follows a commandment like to it, to love one’s neighbour as one’s self; the author of the law and the Gospel is shown to be one and the same. For the precepts of an absolutely perfect life, since they are the same in each Testament, have pointed out [to us] the same God, who certainly has promulgated particular laws adapted for each; but the more prominent and the greatest [commandments], without which salvation cannot [be attained], He has exhorted [us to observe] the same in both.

… 4 … For this is what Paul says concerning these men: “For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” And how is Christ the end of the law, if He be not also the final Cause of it? For He who has brought in the end has Himself also wrought the beginning; and it is He who does Himself say to Moses, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have come down to deliver them; ” it being customary from the beginning with the Word of God to ascend and descend for the purpose of saving those who were in affliction.

  1. Now, that the law did beforehand teach mankind the necessity of following Christ, He does Himself make manifest, when He replied as follows to him who asked Him what he should do that he might inherit eternal life: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” But upon the other asking “Which? “” again the Lord replies: “Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, hon-our father and mother, and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,”-setting as an ascending series (velut gradus) before those who wished to follow Him, the precepts of the law, as the entrance into life; and What He then said to one He said to all. But when the former said, “All these have I done” (and most likely he had not kept them, for in that case the Lord would not have said to him, “Keep the commandments“), the Lord, exposing his covetousness, said to him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell all that thou hast, and distribute to the poor; and come, follow me; “promising to those who would act thus, the portion belonging to the apostles (apostolorum partem). And He did not preach to His followers another God the Father, besides Him who was proclaimed by the law from the beginning; nor another Son; nor the Mother, the enthymesis of the Aeon, who existed in suffering and apostasy; nor the Pleroma of the thirty Aeons, which has been proved vain, and incapable of being believed in; nor that fable invented by the other heretics. But He taught that they should obey the commandments which God enjoined from the beginning, and do away with their former covetousness by good works, and follow after Christ. But that possessions distributed to the poor do annul former covetousness, Zaccheus made evident, when he said, “Behold, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one, I restore fourfold.” …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 12))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103412.htm

 

  1. iv) In Matthew 5:19 – 20 Christ Says one’s righteousness will need to exceed the Pharisees in obedience to “His Commands” (not the abolished Torah parts but ‘what He Commanded and re-enforced for the New Testament’) to ENTER HEAVEN and St. Irenaeous explains next that “neither is it the utterance of one destroying the law, but of one fulfilling, extending, and affording greater scope to it.” as part of the “purification” (sanctification) of the body where in the money aspect Irenaeous clearly points this sanctification to include the Charity Doctrine Command for exceeding the Pharisees’ context

 

“… 1. And that the Lord did not abrogate the natural [precepts] of the law, by which man is justified, which also those who were justified by faith, and who pleased God, did observe previous to the giving of the law, but that He extended and fulfilled them, is shown from His words. “For,” He remarks, “it has been said to them of old time, Do not commit adultery. But I say unto you, That every one who hath looked upon a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” And again: “It has been said, Thou shalt not kill. But I say unto you, Every one who is angry with his brother without a cause, shall be in danger of the judgment.” And, “It hath been said, Thou shalt not forswear thyself. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; but let your conversation be, Yea, yea, and Nay, nay.” And other statements of a like nature. For all these do not contain or imply an opposition to and an overturning of the [precepts] of the past, as Marcion’s followers do strenuously maintain; but [they exhibit] a fulfilling and an extension of them, as He does Himself declare: “Unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” For what meant the excess referred to? In the first place, [we must] believe not only in the Father, but also in His Son now revealed; for He it is who leads man into fellowship and unity with God. In the next place, [we must] not only say, but we must do; for they said, but did not. And [we must] not only abstain from evil deeds, but even from the desires after them. Now He did not teach us these things as being opposed to the law, but as fulfilling the law, and implanting in us the varied righteousness of the law. That would have been contrary to the law, if He had commanded His disciples to do anything which the law had prohibited. But this which He did command-namely, not only to abstain from things forbidden by the law, but even from longing after them-is not contrary to [the law], as I have remarked, neither is it the utterance of one destroying the law, but of one fulfilling, extending, and affording greater scope to it.

  1. For the law, since it was laid down for those in bondage, used to instruct the soul by means of those corporeal objects which were of an external nature, drawing it, as by a bond, to obey its commandments, that man might learn to serve God. But the Word set free the soul, and taught that through it the body should be willingly purified. Which having been accomplished, it followed as of course, that the bonds of slavery should be removed, to which man had now become accustomed, and that he should follow God without fetters: moreover, that the laws of liberty should be extended, and subjection to the king increased, so that no one who is convened should appear unworthy to Him who set him free, but that the piety and obedience due to the Master of the household should be equally rendered both by servants and children; while the children possess greater confidence [than the servants], inasmuch as the working of liberty is greater and more glorious than that obedience which is rendered in [a state of] slavery.
  2. And for this reason did the Lord, instead of that [commandment], “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” forbid even concupiscence; and instead of that which runs thus, “Thou shalt not kill,” He prohibited anger; and instead of the law enjoining the giving of tithes, [He told us] to share all our possessions with the poor; and not to love our neighbours only, but even our enemies; and not merely to be liberal givers and bestowers, but even that we should present a gratuitous gift to those who take away our goods. For “to him that taketh away thy coat,” He says, “give to him thy cloak also; and from him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again; and as ye would that men should do unto you, do ye unto them: ” so that we may not grieve as those who are unwilling to be defrauded, but may rejoice as those who have given willingly, and as rather conferring a favour upon our neighbours than yielding to necessity. “And if any one,” He says, “shall compel thee [to go] a mile, go with him twain; ” so that thou mayest not follow him as a slave, but may as a free man go before him, showing thyself in all things kindly disposed and useful to thy neighbour, not regarding their evil intentions, but performing thy kind offices, assimilating thyself to the Father, “who maketh His sun to rise upon the evil and the good, and sendeth rain upon the just and unjust.” Now all these [precepts], as I have already observed, were not the injunctions] of one doing away with the law, but of one fulfilling, extending, and widening it among us; just as if one should say, that the more extensive operation of liberty implies that a more complete subjection and affection towards our Liberator had been implanted within us. For He did not set us free for this purpose, that we should depart from Him (no one, indeed, while placed out of reach of the Lord’s benefits, has power to procure for himself the means of salvation), but that the more we receive His grace, the more we should love Him. Now the more we have loved Him, the more glory shall we receive from Him, when we are continually in the presence of the Father.
  3. Inasmuch, then, as all natural precepts are common to us and to them (the Jews), they had in them indeed the beginning and origin; but in us they have received growth and completion. For to yield assent to God, and to follow His Word, and to love Him above all, and one’s neighbour as one’s self (now man is neighbour to man), and to abstain from every evil deed, and all other things of a like nature which are common to both [covenants], do reveal one and the same God. But this is our Lord, the Word of God, who in the first instance certainly drew slaves to God, but afterwards He set those free who were subject to Him, as He does Himself declare to His disciples: “I will not now call you servants, for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth; but I have called you friends, for all things which I have heard from My Father I have made known.” For in that which He says, “I will not now call you servants,” He indicates in the most marked manner that it was Himself who did originally appoint for men that bondage with respect to God through the law, and then afterwards conferred upon them freedom. And in that He says, “For the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth,” He points out, by means of His own advent, the ignorance of a people in a servile condition. But when He terms His disciples the friends of God,” He plainly declares Himself to be the Word of God, whom Abraham also followed voluntarily and under no compulsion (sine vinculis), because of the noble nature of his faith, and so became “the friend of God.” But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning (“Before Abraham was,” He says, “I am” ), but that He in His goodness might bestow eternal life upon Abraham himself, inasmuch as the friendship of God imparts immortality to those who embrace it. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 13))

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103413.htm

 

Compare: Please also notice the phrase below where God Instructs NOT just Holiness but “JUSTICE” too in this phrase:

 

“… 1Thus SAYS THE LORD: “Keep justice, and do righteousness,  …”(Isaiah 56:1)

 

Definition of JUSTICE is NOT ‘Rich Man politics games nor prosperity games to get richer’ but  rather is the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle according to CHRIST’S OWN DEFINITION in Verses below since #ALMS = #CHARITY = #FREE #GIVING or #SHARING NOT from #ChurchMoney or #Donation only but from #WhatYouHave (#Personal Possessions too) likewise, Verses:

 

“… [39Then the Lord said to him,] “Now you Pharisees make the OUTSIDE OF THE CUP and DISH CLEAN, but YOUR INWARD PART is full of [k]GREED and WICKEDNESS. 40FOOLISH ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. 42“But woe to you Pharisees! For YOU TITHE mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and PASS BY JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD These you OUGHT TO HAVE DONE, WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHERS UNDONE. 43Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the [m]best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44Woe to you, [n]scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.” …” – The GREATEST ONE, The ONLY KING, GOD in FLESH, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:39 – 45, NKJV)

 

*ALMSGIVING (#CharityDoctrineLifestyle of Sharing and Giving for FREE from WHAT YOU HAVE or with YOUR POSSESSIONS and not from “Donation money or Church money only“, please notice thesephrases” in Verses above) is the CURE of this SECOND IDOLATRY as even St. Gregory Nanzianzus’ quote above mentions clearly quoting Apostle St. Paul on it, Compare: [ From Page 1770 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ].

 

Comment: Notice that CHRIST HIMSELF SAYS that CHARITY DOCTRINE (“Alms”) CLEANS ALL (the REAL SANCTIFICATION) which even TITHE GIVING DOES NOT because it alone FULFILLS GOD’S WILL for BOTH JUSTICE and LOVE of GOD and if ‘anything else’ was important with it, CHRIST WOULD have mentioned but HE DID NOT meaning this is a MUST and ONLY THOSE WHO DO GOD’S WILL ENTER HEAVEN (Matthew 7:20 – 23 where MANY are DENIED despite Prophesying, Casting out Demons and Miracles due to LAWLESSNESS which can include THIS INWARD LAWLESSNESS NOT CLEANSED VIA ALMSGIVING – can you “see” it as it is Written?)

 

  1. v) The Original Koine Greek Bible Word according to St. Irenaeous (not me) regarding those who WILL NOT INHERIT the KINGDOM of GOD includes THOSE WHO INDULGE in LUXURY SIN too which UNFORTUNATELY is PREACHED by the PROSPERITY GOSPEL (see the RISK?)

[Please notice the word “luxuriousness,” carefully in his own words below]

“…  1. [The apostle], foreseeing the wicked speeches of unbelievers, has particularized the works which he terms carnal; and he explains himself, lest any room for doubt be left to those who do dishonestly pervert his meaning, thus saying in the Epistle to the Galatians: “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are adulteries, fornications, uncleanness, luxuriousness, idolatries, witchcrafts, hatreds, contentions jealousies, wraths, emulations, animosities, irritable speeches, dissensions, heresies, envyings, drunkenness, carousings, and such like; of which I warn you, as also I have warned you, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”  …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 11))

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103511.htm

4) Non Elect Salvation (Believing after seeing) Possibility Quotes

 

  1. i) Open Question: Is Irenaeous pointing to Non Elect Salvation hope for some heretics who are rejected due to UNBELIEF here?

“…  1. The rule of truth which we hold, is, that there is one God Almighty, who made all things by His Word, and fashioned and formed, out of that which had no existence, all things which exist. … ,-He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we shall prove. Holding, therefore, this rule, we shall easily show, notwithstanding the great variety and multitude of their opinions, that these men have deviated from the truth; for almost all the different sects of heretics admit that there is one God; but then, by their pernicious doctrines, they change [this truth into error], even as the Gentiles do through idolatry,-thus proving themselves ungrateful to Him that created them. Moreover, they despise the workmanship of God, speaking against their own salvation, becoming their own bitterest accusers, and being false witnesses [against themselves]. Yet, reluctant as they may be, these men shall one day rise again in the flesh, to confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead; but they shall not be numbered among the righteous on account of their unbelief. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 22))

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103122.htm

 

Does this phrase imply a POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION where “… Yet, reluctant as they may be, these men [HERETICS equivalent to IDOLATERS in quote prior] shall one day rise again in the flesh, to confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead; but they shall not be numbered among the righteous on account of their unbelief. …” in the sense that AFTER THEY CONFESS HIM (they could be saved perhaps?) where the phrase “… not be numbered among the righteous …” seem to point more positively to “being saved” but not in Heaven type (as that’s where the righteous dwells) so perhaps on that FINAL NEW EARTH only but never entering through the GATES into  HEAVEN? Maybe? Because St. Irenaeous quote for the absolutely damned is usually stronger and he would have used those phrases like “into the fire or death or equivalent” as in contrast the quote here seems a “little hopeful” perhaps under the single condition that these HERETICS “… confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead …” which could mean a “believing after seeing possibility” condition, right? I cannot say 100% and am neutral about it.

 

 

  1. ii) Some barbarian nations who only HEARD and believed of the VERBAL GOSPEL and are SAVED as ELECT SALVATION even though “… among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established …” according to St. Irenaeous dispelling the “myth” that Christians must belong to a “Home Church” or if “not” you are unsaved

 

“… 1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

  1. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents, have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 4)) Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103304.htm

iii) The PUNISHMENT of UNBELIEF is to MISS the FIRST RESURRECTION and 1000 years Millennial Reign of CHRIST, i.e. the phrase “times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, true Sabbath of the righteous in his own words prove in his other quotes in pages earlier  which may be compared with the one stated here as “… And he says, “the unbelievers of this world,” because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption. …” and also as “…  the unbelieving and the blinded of this world, that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come. …” in the following:

 

“… 1. As to their affirming that Paul said plainly in the Second [Epistle] to the Corinthians, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not,” and maintaining that there is indeed one god of this world, but another who is beyond all principality, and beginning, and power, we are not to blame if they, who give out that they do themselves know mysteries beyond God, know not how to read Paul. For if any one read the passage thus-according to Paul’s custom, as I show elsewhere, and by many examples, that he uses transposition of words-“In whom God,” then pointing it off, and making a slight interval, and at the same time read also the rest [of the sentence] in one [clause], “hath blinded the minds of them of this world that believe not,” he shall find out the true [sense]; that it is contained in the expression, “God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world.” And this is shown by means of the little interval [between the clause]. For Paul does not say, “the God of this world,” as if recognising any other beyond Him; but he confessed God as indeed God. And he says, “the unbelievers of this world,” because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption. I shall show from Paul himself, how it is that God has blinded the minds of them that believe not, in the course of this work, that we may not just at present distract our mind from the matter in hand, [by wandering] at large.

  1. From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him. An example occurs in the [Epistle] to the Galatians, where he expresses himself as follows: “Wherefore then the law of works? It was added, until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator.” For the order of the words runs thus: “Wherefore then the law of works? Ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator, it was added until the seed should come to whom the promise was made,”-man thus asking the question, and the Spirit making answer. And again, in the Second to the Thessalonians, speaking of Antichrist, he says, “And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy him with the presence of his coming; [even him] whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders.” Now in these [sentences] the order of the words is this: “And then shall be revealed that wicked, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the presence of His coming.” For he does not mean that the coming of the Lord is after the working of Satan; but the coming of the wicked one, whom we also call Antichrist. If, then, one does not attend to the [proper] reading [of the passage], and if he do not exhibit the intervals of breathing as they occur, there shall be not only incongruities, but also, when reading, he will utter blasphemy, as if the advent of the Lord could take place according to the working of Satan. So therefore, in such passages, the hyperbatonmust be exhibited by the reading, and the apostle’s meaning following on, preserved; and thus we do not read in that passage, “the god of this world,” but, “God,” whom we do truly call God; and we hear [it declared of] the unbelieving and the blinded of this world, that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 7))

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103307.htm

[Compare from Page 2246 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there]

Please notice that UNBELIEF’s PUNISHMENT is NOT ENTERING the SABBATH REST which is metaphorically the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ as St. Papias and St. Irenaeous’ quotes at the end of this Write Up clearly Reveal together with these Bible Verses too:

 

“…1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

So I swore in My wrath,

‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

Today, if you will hear His voice,

Do not harden your hearts.”

8For if [b]Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.  …” (Hebrews 4:1 – 10, NKJV) Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/hebrews/4.htm

 

[Compare from Page 2268 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there]

(meaning this occurs during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ when the First Resurrection occurs after Christ Returns, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36 below):

 

“… Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection Over such the second death has no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED This is the first resurrection. …” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, 5, 11 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 34JESUS ANSWERED and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that AGE (Aeon/Olam), and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 20:4 – 6), NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; 36NOR CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE, FOR THEY ARE EQUAL TO THE ANGELS and ARE SONS OF GOD, being SONS OF THE RESURRECTION. …” (Luke 20:34 – 36, NKJV)

 

  1. iv) ELECT SALVATION = The HOLY SPIRIT is ONLY upon CHRISTIANS who have WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS as the Allegorical Meaning of the WEDDING GARMENT according to Irenaeous to be prepared to participate in the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ when the First Resurrection occurs after Christ Returns

 

“… 6. Still further did He also make it manifest, that we ought, after our calling, to be also adorned with WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS, so that the SPIRIT OF GOD MAY REST UPON US; for this is the WEDDING GARMENT, of which also the apostle speaks, “Not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up by immortality.” But those who have indeed been called to God’s supper, yet have not received the Holy Spirit, because of their wicked conduct “shall be,” He declares, “cast into outer darkness.” He thus clearly shows that the very same King who gathered from all quarters the faithful to the marriage of His Son, and who grants them the incorruptible banquet, [also] orders that man to be cast into outer darkness who has not on a wedding garment, that is, one who despises it. For as in the former covenant, “with many of them was He not well pleased; ” so also is it the case here, that “many are called, but few chosen.”

  1. … But since He who chose the patriarchs and those [who lived under the first covenant], is the same Word of God who did both visit them through the prophetic Spirit, and us also who have been called together from all quarters by His advent; in addition to what has been already said, He truly declared, “ Many shall come from the east and from the west, and shall recline with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall go into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” If, then, those who do believe in Him through the preaching of His apostles throughout the east and west shall recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, partaking with them of the [heavenly] banquet, one and the same God is set forth as He who did indeed choose the patriarchs, visited also the people, and called the Gentiles. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 36))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103436.htm

 

  1. v) Non Elect Salvation (Believing after seeing) Possibility Quotes by St. Irenaeous

 

“… 5. And for this purpose did the Father reveal the Son, that through His instrumentality He might be manifested to all, and might receive those righteous ones who believe in Him into incorruption and everlasting enjoyment (now, to believe in Him is to do His will); but He shall righteously shut out into the darkness which they have chosen for themselves, those who do not believe, and who do consequently avoid His light. The Father therefore has revealed Himself to all, by making His Word visible to all; and, conversely, the Word has declared to all the Father and the Son, since He has become visible to all. And therefore the righteous judgment of God [shall fall] upon all who, like others, have seen, but have not, like others, believed.

  1. For by means of the creation itself, the Word reveals God the Creator; and by means of the world [does He declare] the Lord the Maker of the world; and by means of the formation [of man] the Artificer who formed him; and by the Son that Father who begat the Son: and these things do indeed address all men in the same manner, but all do not in the same way believe them. But by the law and the prophets did the Word preach both Himself and the Father alike [to all]; and all the people heard Him alike, but all did not alike believe. And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, although all did not equally believe in Him; but all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God. Yea, even the demons exclaimed, on beholding the Son: “We know Thee who Thou art, the Holy One of God.” And the devil looking at Him, and tempting Him, said: “If Thou art the Son of God; ” –all thus indeed seeing and speaking of the Son and the Father, but all not believing [in them].

 

  1. For it was fitting that the truth should receive testimony from all, and should become [a means of] judgment for the salvation indeed of those who believe, but for the condemnation of those who believe not; that all should be fairly judged, and that the faith in the Father and Son should be approved by all, that is, that it should be established by all [as the one means of salvation], receiving testimony from all, both from those belonging to it, since they are its friends, and by those having no connection with it, though they are its enemies. … For the Son is the knowledge of the Father; but the knowledge of the Son is in the Father, and has been revealed through the Son; and this was the reason why the Lord declared: “No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; nor the Father, save the Son, and those to whomsoever the Son shall reveal [Him].” For “shall reveal” was said not with reference to the future alone, as if then [only] the Word had begun to manifest the Father when He was born of Mary, but it applies indifferently throughout all time. For the Son, being present with His own handiwork from the beginning, reveals the Father to all; to whom He wills, and when He wills, and as the Father wills. Wherefore, then, in all things, and through all things, there is one God, the Father, and one Word, and one Son, and one Spirit, and one salvation to all who believe in Him. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 6))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103406.htm

 

St. Irenaeous quote above seems to point to GOD’s JUDGMENT for UNBELIEF ONLY after the BELIEVING AFTER SEEING POSSIBILITY as per his quotes earlier highlighted as follows:

 

“… by making His Word visible to all; and, conversely, the Word has declared to all the Father and the Son, since He has become visible to all. ” = THE WORD refers to VISIBLE MANIFESTATION (so as IN FLESH) so the SON (with whom the FATHER is also known)

 

“… And therefore the righteous judgment of God [shall fall] upon all who, like others, have seen, but have not, like others, believed. …” = CONDEMNATION only seems to be pointed if all get the equal chance as per the literal “believing after seeing chance” of CHRIST VISIBLY as the quote here seems to refer to Bible Verses below (as “others” who rejected that TYPE of SEEING CHRIST in FLESH but STILL NOT BELIEVING were the “JEWS”):

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall NEVER THIRST. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

Yes, believing after Seeing Context in St. Irenaeous continuing words earlier seem to point to this POSSIBILITY (Difficult to ascertain either way, right?) especially in light of Verses above to which he is most likely referring to, highlight below:

 

“… and by the Son that Father who begat the Son: and these things do indeed address all men in the same manner, but all do not in the same way believe them. But by the law and the prophets did the Word preach both Himself and the Father alike [to all]; and all the people heard Him alike, but all did not alike believe. And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, although all did not equally believe in Him; but all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God. Yea, even the demons exclaimed, on beholding the Son: “We know Thee who Thou art, the Holy One of God.” And the devil looking at Him, and tempting Him, said: “If Thou art the Son of God; ” –all thus indeed seeing and speaking of the Son and the Father, but all not believing [in them].

…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

  1. vi) Is there a Non Elect Salvation (Believing after seeing) Possibility in quote below by St. Irenaeous which directly references the JUDGMENT DAY VERSES of Matthew 25:31 – 46?

 

“…  1. Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth” ), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it,-the ciders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavour to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples.

  1. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong, ) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 28))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103428.htm

 

Comments:

 

“… and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong, )  …” = does this refer to Christians only?

 

This phrase “… according to the class to which they belong …” seems like a RELATIVE MEASURE INDICATOR for both the “love God ” and “follow the Word of God” measurement meant in JUDGMENT DAY VERSE above.

 

So it’s possible that the CLASS to which SOME OF THEM BELONG  as St. Ireneaous points here can be a possible Non Elect Salvation  only on the FINAL NEW EARTH or getting the WATER of LIFE in that FUTURE TIME only as discussed say in Pages 2276 earlier even in light of other First Christianity quotes especially St. Athenagoras’ on Page 2253 too.

vii) Is there a Non Elect Salvation Possibility in quote below by St. Irenaeous which directly references the JUDGMENT DAY VERSES of Matthew 25:31 – 46 In the CONTEXT of toward THOSE NON-CHRISTIANS who may have done CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS toward CHRISTIANS?

 

“… 3. If, however, a comparison be instituted between us and them, [I would ask] which party shall seem to have received [their worldly goods] in the fairer manner? Will it be the [Jewish] people, [who took] from the Egyptians, who were at all points their debtors; or we, [who receive property] from the Romans and other nations, who are under no similar obligation to us? Yea, moreover, through their instrumentality the world is at peace, and we walk on the highways without fear, and sail where we will. Therefore, against men of this kind (namely, the heretics) the word of the Lord applies, which says: “Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” For if he who lays these things to thy charge, and glories in his own wisdom, has been separated from the company of the Gentiles, and possesses nothing [derived from] other people’s goods, but is literally naked, and barefoot, and dwells homeless among the mountains, as any of those animals do which feed on grass, he will stand excused [in using such language], as being ignorant of the necessities of our mode of life. But if he do partake of what, in the opinion of men, is the property of others, and if [at the same time] he runs down their type, he proves himself most unjust, turning this kind of accusation against himself. For he will be found carrying about property not belonging to him, and coveting goods which are not his. And therefore has the Lord said: “Judge not, that ye be not judged: for with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged.” [The meaning is] not certainly that we should not find fault with sinners, nor that we should consent to those who act wickedly; but that we should not pronounce an unfair judgment on the dispensations of God, inasmuch as He has Himself made provision that all things shall turn out for good, in a way consistent with justice. For, because He knew that we would make a good use of our substance which we should possess by receiving it from another, He says, “He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.” And, “For I was an hungered, and ye gave Me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink; I was naked and ye clothed Me.” And, “When thou doest thine alms [CHARITY], let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.” And we are proved to be righteous by whatsoever else we do well, redeeming, as it were, our property from strange hands. But thus do I say, “from strange hands,” not as if the world were not God’s possession, but that we have gifts of this sort, and receive them from others, in the same way as these men had them from the Egyptians who knew not God; and by means of these same do we erect in ourselves the tabernacle of God: for God dwells in those who act uprightly, as the Lord says: “Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness, that they, when ye shall be put to flight,” may receive you into eternal tabernacles.” For whatsoever we acquired from unrighteousness when we were heathen, we are proved righteous, when we have become believers, by applying it to the Lord’s advantage.

 

  1. As a matter of course, therefore, these things were done beforehand in a type, and from them was the tabernacle of God constructed; those persons justly receiving them, as I have shown, while we were pointed out beforehand in them,-[we] who should afterwards serve God by the things of others. For the whole exodus of the people out of Egypt, which took place under divine guidance, was a type and image of the exodus of the Church which should take place from among the Gentiles; and for this cause He leads it out at last from this world into His own inheritance, which Moses the servant of God did not [bestow], but which Jesus the Son of God shall give for an inheritance. And if any one will devote a dose attention to those things which are stated by the prophets with regard to the [time of the] end, and those which John the disciple of the Lord saw in the Apocalypse, he will find that the nations [are to] receive the same plagues universally, as Egypt then did particularly. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 30))

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103430.htm

 

Comments [with Emphasis Mine]:

 

“… which party shall seem to have received [their worldly goods] in the fairer manner? Will it be the [Jewish] people, [who took] from the Egyptians, who were at all points their debtors; or we [Christians], [who receive property] from the Romans and other nations [NON-CHRISTIANS], who are under no similar obligation to us?  …” = Christians receiving the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS from some NON-CHRISTIANS via willing Free Will Choice

 

“… For, because He knew that we would make a good use of our substance which we should possess by receiving it from another [from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier ], He says, “He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.” And, “For I was an hungered, and ye gave Me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink; I was naked and ye clothed Me.” And, “When thou doest thine alms [CHARITY], let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.” …” = Christians ALSO DOING the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS from THE GOODS GIVEN BY some NON-CHRISTIANS via Free Will Choice likewise fulfilling GOD’s WILL.

 

 

 

“… But thus do I say, “from strange hands,” [from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier ],  not as if the world were not God’s possession, but that we have gifts of this sort, and receive them from others [from NON-CHRISTIANS], in the same way as these men [JEWS in Analogy of the past] had them from the Egyptians who knew not God [from NON-CHRISTIANS in Analogy likewise]; and by means of these same do we erect in ourselves the tabernacle of God: for God dwells in those who act uprightly, as the Lord says: “Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness, that they, when ye shall be put to flight,” may receive you into eternal tabernacles.” For whatsoever we acquired from unrighteousness when we were heathen, we are proved righteous, when we have become believers, by applying it to the Lord’s advantage.  …” = So Christians are obliged to DO the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS from THE GOODS GIVEN BY some NON-CHRISTIANS via Free Will Choice likewise fulfilling GOD’s WILL and so perhaps those NON-CHRISTIANS may thus get a NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY since the BIBLE VERSES St. Irenaeous is referring to actually points more to NON CHRISTIANS mentioned to help on these to be SAVED on account that they helped His Brethren” (Christians), Verses below (Compare):

 

“… 31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his SHEEP from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the RIGHTEOUS WILL ANSWER Him, saying, ‘Lord, When Did We See You Hungry And Feed YOU, or THIRSTY AND GIVE YOU DRINK? 38WHEN DID WE SEE YOU A STRANGER and TAKE YOU IN, OR NAKED AND CLOTHE YOU? 39Or WHEN DID WE SEE YOU SICK, OR in PRISON, AND COME TO YOU?’ 40And THE KING WILL ANSWER and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I SAY TO YOU, INASMUCH AS YOU DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DID IT TO ME.’ 41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE.”  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:31 – 46, NKJV)

 

 

 

“… ,-[we] who should afterwards serve God by the things of others [from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier] . For the whole exodus of the people out of Egypt, which took place under divine guidance, was a type and image of the exodus of the Church which should take place from among the Gentiles [[from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier]; …” = Christians are obliged to DO the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS and OTHER MINISTRY from THE GOODS GIVEN BY some NON-CHRISTIANS

 

“… and for this cause He leads it out at last from this world into His own inheritance, which Moses the servant of God did not [bestow], but which Jesus the Son of God shall give for an inheritance. And if any one will devote a dose attention to those things which are stated by the prophets with regard to the [time of the] end, and those which John the disciple of the Lord saw in the Apocalypse, he will find that the nations [are to] receive the same plagues universally, as Egypt then did particularly. …”  = Though St. Irenaeous highlights the “plagues” here for the “nations “ which DID NOT do the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS toward CHRISTIANS (implied most likely by Context in his quote throughout here even), so the UNMENTIONED PART of the NATIONS who ARE SAVED (Revelation 21:24 – 27 in the Apocalypse) quoted in CONTEXT of MATTHEW 25:31 – 46 here could INDIRECTLY IMPLY that SOME of the NATIONS [NON-CHRISTIANS] likewise COULD BE SAVED DUE to the FRUIT of CHARITY DOCTRINE toward CHRISTIANS (getting the ‘Believing after Seeing’ possibility)?

 

Please consider this POSSIBLE “Second Resurrection” Quote likewise by him:

 

“… 1. Let our opponents-that is, they who speak against their own salvation-inform us [as to this point]: The deceased daughter of the high priest; the widow’s dead son, who was being carded out [to burial] near the gate [of the city]; and Lazarus, who had lain four days in the tomb, -in what bodies did they rise again? In those same, no doubt, in which they had also died. For if it were not in the very same, then certainly those same individuals who had died did not rise again. For [the Scripture] says, “The Lord took the hand of the dead man, and said to him, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And the dead man sat up, and He commanded that something should be given him to eat; and He delivered him to his mother.” Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 13))

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103513.htm

 

[Recall from Page 2262 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote of John 5:28 – 29 seem to point to the “Last Trumpet” (“Second Resurrection”) pointing to “hour is coming or HOUR SHALL COME” referring to John 5:28 – 29 literal simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ which is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5) WHICH SEEM TO BE EXTENDED TO THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE from ALL TIMELINES  and NOT THOSE MORTALS OF THE 1000 YEARS MILLENNIAL TIMELINE ONLY (Please read ‘his quote carefully next to note this’):

 

“… the same Lord has pointed out that the WHOLE HUMAN RACE SHALL BE DIVIDED AT JUDGMENT, “ AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDETH THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS,” [Matthew 25:32] and that to some He will say, “Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you,” [Matthew 25:34] but to others, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels,” [Matthew 25:41] one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], “making peace and creating evil things,” preparing fit things for both; …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church     (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 40)

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103440.htm

 

This simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ above MUST BE NON ELECT SALVATION if True because it is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5)  where he believed it included all the thirty, sixty and hundredfold ones in the WEDDING of the LAMB, to quote (for comparison), yes St. Irenaeous of Lyons clearly affirms that this Position is Taught by the ‘Prebysters’ whom he refers below as the DIRECT DISCIPLES of the APOSTLES ONLY:

“… And as the presbyters* say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the WEDDING. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature… For in the TIMES of the KINGDOM, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die.John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the FIRST “RESURRECTION of the JUST,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church     (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 36))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103536.htm

 

[Please notice the word WEDDING which indicates that the MARRIAGE of the LAMB with HIS CHURCH happens during CHRIST’S SECOND  COMING followed by the MILLENNIAL REIGN called the “TIMES of the KINGDOM” in his writing]

 

Please also notice that St. Irenaeous’ quote above include “ALL Christians”  because there are only three types of Christians namely, the “Thirtyfold, Sixtyfold and Hundredfold” harvest of the Gospel (Matthew 13:8) and all are mentioned in quote above to participate in the “First Resurrection only to partake of the Wedding of the Lamb” as those of the Second Resurrection 1000 years later (Revelation 20:5) will certainly “miss” this “Wedding Banquet of the Lamb” and so if anyone is saved during the “Second  Resurrection” it must be a NON ELECT SALVATION only most likely.

 

 

 

 

POSSIBILITY Summary

 

Non-Elect Salvation means they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth (i.e. the phrase “nations of those who are saved” where some/all of them may need the “leaves of the tree of life for healing”) but NO Heaven Inheritance (which is ONLY for Elect Salvation, the “Heavenly  Bride/Christians“)  but “some” from that FINAL NEW EARTH may “VISIT the BRIDE” for example the “KINGS OF THE EARTH” with CONDITION their NAMES MUST be in the LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE as these are clearly distinguished in Verses below and so it is POSSIBLE (let GOD DECIDE):

 

 

“… But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. …”1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA.  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” … In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the TREE OF LIFE, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. …” (Revelation 20:5, 11 – 15, 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27,  22:2, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

or they could be among these whom the BRIDE calls to ON THAT FUTURE TIMELINE AFTER the LITERAL WATER of LIFE is REVEALED (because no matter if this water is physical or spiritual it is ONLY Revealed AFTER JUDGMENT DAY since NO ONE CAN PARTAKE of it UNTIL they are in their FINAL RESURRECTION BODY – can you “see” it? Also it is ONLY Created on the FINAL NEW EARTH and HEAVENS and NOT during the CURRENT NEW EARTH and HEAVEN which will pass away on Judgment Day during the Second Resurrection as Revelation 21:1 indicates clearly too when the saints Reign with Him there). Here are those ‘highlighted parts’ in TIMELINE ORDER as IT IS WRITTEN (as per the CHILIASM TIMELINE Reading Employed for it “Literally” despite if it is a “material Water of life” or “Spiritual Water of life” this Context of “Time” seems to remain the “same”, can you see it?):

 

…”1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE..  … 1And he showed me a [a]pure RIVER of WATER OF LIFE, clear as crystal, proceeding from the THRONE of GOD and of the LAMB. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the TREE OF LIFE, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. 3And there shall be NO MORE CURSE, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be NO NIGHT there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. … And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27, Revelation 22:1 – 5, 17, NKJV)

 

I cannot say which is which 100% for sure and so LET GOD DECIDE ONE DAY.

 

Further POSSIBILITY claims in support of a NON ELECT SALVATION for WATER of LIFE Context and reference in Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 was discussed in Pages 2265 to 2277 in this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

 

Water of Life – Two References 1000 years Apart in Chiliasm Timeline and meaning of Unsaved with the Shepherd of Hermas, St. Papias and St. Irenaeous

 

Since “… and knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV), I am going to quote the POSSIBILITIES next with the following structure:

 

0.0) Claim

0.1) Bible Verses

0.2) First Christianity Quote for POSSIBLE Interpretation of this Prophecy in this way

 

Let’s Begin.

 

1.0) Claim: Elect Salvation AFTER the FINAL TRIBULATION when CHRIST RETURNS and CHRISTIANS GETTING the WATER OF LIFE

 

1.1) Bible Verses

 

“… 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” …” (Revelation 7:9 – 17, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/7.htm

 

1.2) First Christianity Quote for POSSIBLE Interpretation of this Prophecy in this way

 

[To quote from Pages 1148 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there]

“… for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, “For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. “But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” …”  – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD, Fragment V-Second part)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

[Please notice the word WEDDING which indicates that the MARRIAGE of the LAMB with HIS CHURCH happens during CHRIST’S SECOND  COMING followed by the MILLENNIAL REIGN called the “TIMES of the KINGDOM” in St. Papias’ writing here as well]

Yes, just like St. Irenaeous’ quotes [e.g. on Page 2186], St. Papias’ Quotes also imply that “ALL Christians”  are saved in this FIRST RESURERCTION itself because there are only three types of Christians namely, the “Thirtyfold, Sixtyfold and Hundredfold” harvest of the Gospel (Matthew 13:8) and all are mentioned in quote below (in St. Papias’ own words yet again) to participate in the “First Resurrection only to partake of the Wedding of the Lamb” as those of the Second Resurrection 1000 years later (Revelation 20:5) will certainly “miss” this “Wedding Banquet of the Lamb” and hence cannot be Christians, to quote:

“… As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions:” …” – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD, Fragment V-first part)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

2.0) Claim: NON Elect Salvation AFTER TIMES of the KINGDOM or 1000 years Millenial Reign of CHRIST and SOME NON-CHRISTIANS (if true) POSSIBLY GETTING the WATER OF LIFE  and/or the LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS WHICH OF COURSE has the SOURCE POWER from LORD JESUS CHRIST ONLY and this is the METHOD in which HE CHOOSES to ADMINISTER the POWER of HIS RESURRECTION and LIFE

 

2.1) Bible Verses in possible Consecutive Timeline Order

 

“… But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.  … 1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE..  … 1And he showed me a [a]pure RIVER of WATER OF LIFE, clear as crystal, proceeding from the THRONE of GOD and of the LAMB. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the TREE OF LIFE, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. 3And there shall be NO MORE CURSE, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be NO NIGHT there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. … And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 20:5, 11 – 15, 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27, Revelation 22:1 – 5, 17, NKJV)

 

 

2.2) First Christianity Quote for POSSIBLE Interpretation of this Prophecy in this way

 

Before that, please note that the SHEPHERD of HERMAS WRITING is SO APPROVED ACROSS FIRST CHRISTIANITY as SCRIPTURE LEVEL that it’s highly unlikely that its quotes are in error whose approval quotes itself may be seen say in Pages 1577 to 1581 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there. Let’s continue.

 

[To quote from Pages 2213 to 2216 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there]

 

If Chiliasm Timeline is True then those saved AFTER these 1000 years on JUDGMENT DAY are those who BELIEVE AFTER SEEING as even those mortals/sinners in the Millennial Reign Timeline (e.g. please see end of this Book) already KNOW CHRIST HAS RETURNED and so to be fair to ALL on JUDGMENT DAY, the “Believing AFTER SEEING POSSIBILITYseem to apply till the END of this LAST DAY = SEVENTH DAY = 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ (the “times of the kingdom”, example definition by St. Irenaeous of Lyons  please see end of this Book) be it on earth (and possibly even the Spirit World likewise for others) is POSSIBLE based on John 6:40 referring INCLUSIVE of this LAST DAY Timeline as well, right? Example Verse Quote from on Pages 1653 or Shepherd of Hermas quote from Page 1588 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, with more details there if keen:

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall NEVER THIRST. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

Comment:  John 3:14 – 15 and John 6:36 – 40 above seem to point strongly to the ‘Believing after Seeing case’ which could be available till the LAST DAY as both John 6:40 and the Shepherd of Hermas quote below seem to point for this ‘non-Elect Salvation Possibility’.

 

Here it is in two translations:

“… For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he shall not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints; but to the heathen, REPENTANCE will be POSSIBLE even to the LAST DAY. You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter II, Second Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

Comment: The “Elect Salvation” seems to have limits while the “heathen’s repentance” which must refer to a “non-Elect Salvation type” as compared and contrasted above (as even the other quote from this same Shepherd of Hermas Writing may point (please see Pages 234 to 240 in this Book if keen), seems to be available even to the LAST DAY; or am I misreading it?)

 

Note this same Shepherd of Hermas translation can be found in the official Roman Catholic Source in this link too (as I have said that it does NOT matter which source is quoted as the content is the same): https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0201.htm

 

Or in another translation:

 

3.0) Claim: The Shepherd of Hermas Teaches ELECT SALVATION vs NON ELECT SALVATION

 

“… 2[6]:4 After that thou hast made known unto them all these words, which the Master commanded me that they should be revealed unto thee, then all their sins which they sinned aforetime are forgiven to them; yea, and to all the saints that have sinned unto this day, if they repent with their whole heart, and remove double-mindedness from their heart. 2[6]:5 For the Master sware by His own glory, as concerning His elect; that if, now that THIS DAY has been set as a LIMIT, sin shall hereafter be committed, they shall not find salvation; for repentance for the righteous hath an end; the days of repentance are accomplished for all the saints; whereas for the GENTILES there is REPENTANCE UNTIL THE LAST DAY. 2[6]:6 Thou shalt therefore say unto the elders of the Church, that they direct their paths in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with abundant glory. …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

3.1) Bible Verses

 

“… For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. …” (2 Corinthians 6:2, NKJV)

 

“… 11So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” 12Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13but [b]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” ..” (Hebrews 3:11 – 15, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/hebrews/3.htm

 

Please notice that UNBELIEF’s PUNISHMENT is NOT ENTERING the SABBATH REST which is metaphorically the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ as St. Papias and St. Irenaeous’ quotes at the end of this Write Up clearly Reveal together with these Bible Verses too:

 

“…1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

So I swore in My wrath,

‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

Today, if you will hear His voice,

Do not harden your hearts.”

8For if [b]Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.  …” (Hebrews 4:1 – 10, NKJV) Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/hebrews/4.htm

3.2) First Christianity Quote for POSSIBLE Interpretation of this Prophecy in this way

 

The Definition from Pages 2092 and 2093 earlier may fit Shepherd of Hermas’ quotes here as follows which was quoted in full at the start of 3.0) earlier:

 

  1. i) Elect Salvation = Christians = His Bride Saved to Inherit the Heavens with Gradations of Thirty, Sixty and Hundredfold among them where they inherit all things but have ‘specific difference in rewards too‘ with Celestial (“Heavenly”) Final Resurrection Body sharing ONE FLESH with CHRIST in some way to inherit its Glory

 

“… 2[6]:5 For the Master sware by His own glory, as concerning His elect; that if, now that THIS DAY has been set as a LIMIT, sin shall hereafter be committed, they shall not find salvation; for repentance for the righteous hath an end; …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

 

  1. ii) Non Elect Salvation Possibility = NOT Christ’s Bride = NOT Christians so they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth with gradation and rewards among them too with Final Earthly (“Terrestrial”) Resurrection Body glory only

 

 

“… whereas for the GENTILES there is REPENTANCE UNTIL THE LAST DAY.. …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

Notice: LAST DAY = SEVENTH DAY = 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ (the “times of the kingdom”) as St. Irenaeous and St. Papias’ quotes at the end mean.

 

How do I know that this “REPENTANCE for HEATHEN/GENTILEmentioned here which is available till the LAST DAY is most likely  and not some special cases for “Elect who never heard the Gospel type” etc. ? Because the “other quotes” from this SHEPHERD of HERMAS in the CONTEXT of REPENTANCE seem to DEFINE it within ITS OWN OWRDS as such next.

 

 

[To quote from Page 1582 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

A key Reason the Shepherd of Hermas is contested again is that it Speaks of a “non Elect Salvation of a few types

 

  1. i) Roman Catholics use this to Prove Purgatory for ‘holy Catholics’ only but the Quote below for this possible non-Elect Salvation seem to include the “Unbaptized”, “the Wicked of all sorts” as long as they have “Participated in the Righteous Word” (which I think is ANY COMMAND OF CHRIST in some part of their lives) where this repentance put them in another place MORE INFERIOR (maybe that FINAL NEW EARTH but names NOT in Book of Life so CANNOT enter the CITY or in some OUTSIDE Regions as Revelation 21:9 – 10, 24 – 27 could describe).

 

“…CHAPTER VI.”As to those who were cut down and thrown far away from the tower, do you wish to know who they are? They are the sons of iniquity, and they believed in hypocrisy, and wickedness did not depart from them. For this reason they are not saved, since they cannot be used in the building on account of their iniquities. Wherefore they have been cut off and cast far away on account of the anger of the Lord, for they have roused Him to anger. But I shall explain to you the other stones which you saw lying in great numbers, and not going into the building. Those which are rough are those who have known the truth and not remained in it, nor have they been joined to the saints. On this account are they unfit for use.” “Who are those that have rents?” “These are they who are at discord in their hearts one with another, and are not at peace amongst themselves: they indeed keep peace before each other, but when they separate one from the other, their wicked thoughts remain in 15their hearts. These, then, are the rents which are in the stones. But those which are shortened are those who have indeed believed, and have the larger share of righteousness; yet they have also a considerable share of iniquity, and therefore they are shortened and not whole.” “But who are these, Lady, that are white and round, and yet do not fit into the building of the tower?” She answered and said, “How long will you be foolish and stupid, and continue to put every kind of question and understand nothing? These are those who have faith indeed, but they have also the riches of this world. When, therefore, tribulation comes, on account of their riches and business they deny the Lord.” I answered and said to her, “When, then, will they be useful for the building, Lady?”When the riches that now seduce them have been circumscribed, then will they be of use to God. For as a round stone cannot become square unless portions be cut off and cast away, so also those who are rich in this world cannot be useful to the Lord unless their riches be cut down. Learn this first from your own case. When you were rich, you were useless; but now you are useful and fit for life. Be ye useful to God; for you also will be used as one of these stones. CHAPTER VII,“Now the other stones which you saw cast far away from the tower, and falling upon the public road and rolling from it into pathless places, are those who have indeed believed, but through doubt have abandoned the true road. Thinking, then, that they could find a better, they wander and become wretched, and enter upon pathless places. But those which fell into the fire and were burned? are those who have departed for ever from the living God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed.Do you wish to know who are the others which fell near the waters, but could not be rolled into them? THESE ARE THEY WHO HAVE HEARD THE WORD, and WISH TO BE BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord; but when the chastity demanded by the truth comes into their recollection, they draw back, and AGAIN WALK AFTER THEIR OWN WICKED DESIRES.” She FINISHED her EXPOSITION of the TOWER. But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, “IS REPENTANCE POSSIBLE FOR ALL THOSE STONES WHICH HAVE BEEN CAST AWAY and DID NOT FIT INTO THE BUILDING of the TOWER, AND WILL THEY YET HAVE A PLACE IN THIS TOWER?” “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have PARTAKEN of the RIGHTEOUS WORD. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the THOUGHT of REPENTING of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart.” …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

The Possibility of non-Elect Salvation here is NOT asked for a particular group only but for ALL the rejected stones which certainly includes non-Christians too (as unbaptized to even some wicked ones mentioned consecutively as these Verses above demonstrate in “full”):

 

Also, notice that if the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory is true, then these must be placed back “into the tower” after Purgatory as that’s how they teach it but it is NOT the case here as the Salvation is NOT in the TOWER (CHURCH) after this anymore implying non-Elect Salvation only actually.

 

Can you see it?

 

The part in quote above which proves non-Elect salvation Outside the “Tower = Church” here:

 

“… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS.  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

  1. c) How do we know that the Context of “Tower” here Parabolically refers to the “Tower of Repentance”?

 

It’s Described earlier as follows ‘Tower [of Repentance]’ = ‘the Church’ = ‘the Elect Salvation’ so the Salvation described earlier must be a ‘Salvation OUTSIDE the  TOWER (Church) in ANOTHER PLACE MUCH MORE INFERIOR, hence NON-ELECT SALVATION’ if these are read ‘as it is Written’ here and ‘Compared’, to quote:

 

“…  “Many indeed shall hear, and hearing, some shall be glad, and some shall weep. But even these, if they hear and repent, shall also rejoice. Hear, then, the PARABLES of the TOWER; for I will reveal all to you, and give me no more trouble in regard to revelation: for these revelations have an end, for they have been completed. But you will not cease praying for revelations, for you are shameless. The TOWER which you see building is myself, THE CHURCH, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion. Ask, then, whatever you like in regard to the tower, and I will reveal it to you, that you may rejoice with the saints.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter III, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

 

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

 

 

 

 

 

Repeated Comment:

[To quote from Page 2215 and 2216 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

Please remember (while reading each POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION  quotes from Pages 1842 to 1886  here especially whichever points to SOME TYPE of SALVATION AFTER JUDGMENT in HADES or GEHENNA/Lake of Fire/PRISON)  or generally ANY type of SALVATION that OCCURS in the SPIRIT WORLD with JUDGMENT INCURRED must be a NON-ELECT SALVATION TYPE by my opinion based on the Shepherd of Hermas ‘s quote ‘”… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS.  …”., Please see around Page 1584 for ‘’translation source’’ and related discussion regarding this using this Shepherd of Hermas Writing which was considered as Scripture in much of First Christianity including St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself. Also such is most likely a NON EELCT SALVATION because the ELECT NEVER go through ANY such SPIRIT WORLD JUDGMENT (be it NOW in HADES NOR in GEHENNA/LAKE of FIRE) being HIS BRIDE and according to John 5:24 as well as Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 2:11.

The FIRST CHRISTIANITY QUOTES regarding NON ELECT SALVATION itself among the DOCTORS of THE CHURCH for the FIRST 700 years of CHRISTIANITY (Pages 1836 to 2091 with other FIRST CHRISTIANITY QUOTES as well from this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook) seem to show that SUCH CHRISTIANS WERE ALL SAVED with SUCH DOCTRINE even (where we only consider it as a “possibility” only).

POSSIBILITY Summary above is possible especially in light of St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr’s CHILIASM QUOTES which SEEM to POINT TO SUCH A NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY to EXIST are found in Pages 2178 to 2187 earlier of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, and hence I speculated in addition as stated above.

 

Apart from St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr’s CHILIASM QUOTES or even the DOCTORS of the CHURCH Quotes stated in Pages 1842 to 1886 earlier, or Blessed Ambrosiaster in Pages 2150 to 2157  or others too in Pages 1887 to 1904 using UNCONDEMNED WRITINGS from FIRST CHRISTIANITY only where SOME has been CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE by SOME EARLY CHRISTIANS  as per the WARNING in SCRIPTURE that “… and knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV), here is one of the EARLIEST INTERPRETATION of such a FINAL PROPHECY preserved seem to point likewise to the NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY to EXIST as described next.

If several quotes are early, which Saint is “earlier” that is more likely true,  and that’s the way I see the RULE of POSSIBILITY.

The Definition from Pages 2092 and 2093 earlier may fit Shepherd of Hermas’ quote above as follows:

 

  1. i) Elect Salvation = Christians = His Bride Saved to Inherit the Heavens with Gradations of Thirty, Sixty and Hundredfold among them where they inherit all things but have ‘specific difference in rewards too‘ with Celestial (“Heavenly”) Final Resurrection Body sharing ONE FLESH with CHRIST in some way to inherit its Glory

 

= “… The TOWER which you see building is myself, THE CHURCH, who have appeared to you now and on the former occasion. Ask, then, whatever you like in regard to the tower, and I will reveal it to you, that you may rejoice with the saints.”  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter III, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson) Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html

With this

“… 2[6]:5 For the Master sware by His own glory, as concerning His elect; that if, now that THIS DAY has been set as a LIMIT, sin shall hereafter be committed, they shall not find salvation; for repentance for the righteous hath an end; …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

  1. ii) Non Elect Salvation Possibility = NOT Christ’s Bride = NOT Christians so they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth with gradation and rewards among them too with Final Earthly (“Terrestrial”) Resurrection Body glory only

 

 

“… “REPENTANCE,” said she, “IS YET POSSIBLE, BUT IN THIS TOWER [Church, Emphasis Mine] THEY CANNOT FIND A SUITABLE PLACE. But in another and MUCH INFERIOR PLACE THEY WILL BE LAID, and that, too, ONLY WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN TORTURED AND COMPLETED THE DAYS OF THEIR SINS.  …” – Shepherd of Hermas (Chapter VII, Third Vision, Translated by another Well Known Scholar Mr. Roberts-Donaldson)

With this

“… whereas for the GENTILES there is REPENTANCE UNTIL THE LAST DAY.. …” – The Shepherd of Hermas (Vision 2, Mr. Lightfoot’s Translation)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

Notice: LAST DAY = SEVENTH DAY = 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ (the “times of the kingdom”) as St. Irenaeous and St. Papias’ quotes at the end mean.

[To quote from Page 2216 or 676 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

“… And we shall make no mistake in saying, that the final cause of an intelligent life and rational judgment, is to be occupied uninterruptedly with those objects to which the natural reason is chiefly and primaily adapted, and to delight unceasingly in the contemplation of Him who is, and of His decrees, notwithstanding that the MAJORITY OF MEN, because they are affected too passionately and too violently by things below, PASS THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT ATTAINING THIS OBJECT. For the LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE WHO FAIL OF THE END THAT BELONGS TO THEM  DOES NOT MAKE VOID THE COMMON LOT, SINCE THE EXAMINATION RELATES TO INDIVIDUALS, and the REWARD or PUNISHMENT OF LIVES ILL OR WELL SPENT IS PROPORTIONED TO THE MERIT OF EACH ….” – Blessed St. Athenagoras of Athens, In his writings he styles himself as “Athenagoras, the Athenian, Philosopher, and Christian”, in the fragments of the Christian History of Philip of Side (c. 425). Philip of Side claims that Athenagoras headed the Catechetical School of Alexandria (which is probably incorrect and contradicted by Eusebius), Athenagoras is an Ante-Nicene Christian apologist who lived during the second half of the 2nd century (c. 133 AD – c. 190 AD, ‘On the Resurrection of the Dead’ )

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0206.htm

 

The Definition from Pages 2092 and 2093 earlier may fit St. Athenagoras’ quote above as follows:

  1. i) Elect Salvation = Christians = His Bride Saved to Inherit the Heavens with Gradations of Thirty, Sixty and Hundredfold among them where they inherit all things but have ‘specific difference in rewards too‘ with Celestial (“Heavenly”) Final Resurrection Body sharing ONE FLESH with CHRIST in some way to inherit its Glory = “… and to delight unceasingly in the contemplation of Him who is, and of His decrees, … SINCE THE EXAMINATION RELATES TO INDIVIDUALS, and the REWARD or PUNISHMENT OF LIVES ILL OR WELL SPENT IS PROPORTIONED TO THE MERIT OF EACH ….” – Blessed St. Athenagoras of Athens (c. 133 AD – c. 190 AD, ‘On the Resurrection of the Dead’ )

 

  1. ii) Non Elect Salvation Possibility = NOT Christ’s Bride = NOT Christians so they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth with gradation and rewards among them too with Final Earthly (“Terrestrial”) Resurrection Body glory only “… MAJORITY OF MEN, because they are affected too passionately and too violently by things below, PASS THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT ATTAINING THIS OBJECT. For the LARGE NUMBER OF THOSE WHO FAIL OF THE END THAT BELONGS TO THEM DOES NOT MAKE VOID THE COMMON LOT, and the REWARD or PUNISHMENT OF LIVES ILL OR WELL SPENT IS PROPORTIONED TO THE MERIT OF EACH ….” – Blessed St. Athenagoras of Athens (c. 133 AD – c. 190 AD, ‘On the Resurrection of the Dead’ )

 

I cannot say which is which 100% for sure and so LET GOD DECIDE ONE DAY.

 

Extension Claim: Did St. Papias also POSSIBLY Teach NON ELECT SALVATION?

[To quote from Pages 1148 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there]

“… As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: John 14:2 for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, “For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. “But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.” …”  – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD, Fragment V)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

The Definition from Pages 2092 and 2093 earlier may fit St. Papias’ quotes as follows:

 

  1. i) Elect Salvation = Christians = His Bride Saved to Inherit the Heavens with Gradations of Thirty, Sixty and Hundredfold among them where they inherit all things but have ‘specific difference in rewards too‘ with Celestial (“Heavenly”) Final Resurrection Body sharing ONE FLESH with CHRIST in some way to inherit its Glory

 

= “… As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: John 14:2 for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; …”  – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD, Fragment V)

 

  1. ii) Non Elect Salvation Possibility = NOT Christ’s Bride = NOT Christians so they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth with gradation and rewards among them too with Final Earthly (“Terrestrial”) Resurrection Body glory only

 

= “…For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. …”  – Blessed St. Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 60 AD – c. 163 AD, Fragment V)

A similar quote to the above is also found below for this part:

“… For in the TIMES of the KINGDOM, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die.John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the FIRST “RESURRECTION of the JUST,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only where it took 18 Centuries for this to happen  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter Chapter 36, Points 1 – 2, 3-partial)

Roman Catholic Source even: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103536.htm

 

Comments:

  1. Please notice the ‘similarity’ between St. Irenaeous’ quote and St. Papias’ quote where St. Papias’ quote above clearly mentions likewise that during the times of the kingdom there are still righteous men on earth but they are NOT Christ’s Bride as the WEDDING has been Complete and so the ones saved during the times of the kingdom participate only in the Second Resurrection 1000 years later at the end of this Millenial Reign (since the Bible only specifies TWO Resurrections separated by 1000 years and NO Continuous Resurrection occuring during this 1000 years either) as per Verses below:

“…Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection Over such the second death has no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED This is the first resurrection. …” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, 5, 11 – 15, NKJV)

 

With [Emphasis] for POSSIBILITY:

“…Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection [Bodily Resurrection ELECT RESURRECTION]. Over such the second death has no power [NO JUDGMENT of Lake of Fire for ELECT SALVATION], but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS [Chiliasm Timeline Position as Context is “Bodily Resurrection]    … But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN [NON – ELECT RESURRECTION ]until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED [separated by 1000 years]. This is the first resurrection. …” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, 5, 11 – 15, NKJV)

 

  1. St. Papias and St. Irenaeous are NOT saying that those righteous on earth are “immortal” but rather that they have “long life” and some may live into the Judgment Day itself possibly (if God Wills) as St. Irenaeous’ other quote below seem to imply that dying at 100 years old is considered a “sinner” (as per Isaiah 65:20) indicating prolonged life but NOT immortality as death is still implied generally for “those mortal righteous on earth” during the TIMES of the KINGDOM or 1000 years Millenial Reign of CHRIST:

”… Also there shall not be there any immature [one], nor an old man who does not fulfil his time: for the youth shall be of a hundred years; and the sinner shall die a hundred years old, yet shall be accursed [Isaiah 65:20]. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them themselves; and shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them themselves, and shall drink wine. And they shall not build, and others inhabit; neither shall they prepare the vineyard, and others eat. For as the days of the tree of life shall be the days of the people in thee; for the works of their hands shall endure. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Point 4, Chapter 34, Book 5)

Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103534.htm

Compare:  “… There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. …” (Isaiah 65:20, KJV)
Source: https://biblehub.com/isaiah/65-20.htm

iii. St. Papias uses the same phrase TIMES of the KINGDOM when these Non Elect Salvation Possibility are PROPHESIED to OCCUR (not now but) only during the 1000 years Millenial Reign of CHRIST timeline referring clearly to such righteous mortals on the earth who can only be saved during the Second Resurrection on Judgment Day as this same phrase and definition is used by St. Irenaeous himself, example quotes:

[To quote from Pages 2179 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there]

 

“… But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies, V. 30.4)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm

or this:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

[To quote from Pages 2158 and 2159 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there; please notice the phrase “times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, true Sabbath of the righteous in his own words below carefully”]

 

“… 2. And for this reason the Lord declared, When you make a dinner or a supper, do not call your friends, nor your neighbours, nor your kinsfolk, lest they ask you in return, and so repay you. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and you shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense you, but a recompense shall be made you at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:12-13 And again He says, Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29; Luke 18:29-30 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

 

  1. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed. Genesis 27:27, etc. But the field is the world. Matthew 13:38 And therefore he added, God give to you of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of grain and wine. And let the nations serve you, and kings bow down to you; and be lord over your brother, and your father’s sons shall bow down to you: CURSED SHALL BE HE WHO SHALL CURSE THEE, and BLESSED SHALL BE HE WHO SHALL BLESS THEE .” [Genesis 12:3] If any one, then, DOES NOT ACCEPT THESE THINGS AS REFERRING TO THE APPOINTED KINGDOM, he must fall into much CONTRADICTION and CONTRARIETY, as is the CASE WITH THE JEWS, who are INVOLVED IN ABSOLUTE PERPLEXITY. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years; and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him. Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The PREDICTED BLESSING, therefore, BELONGS UNQUESTIONABLY TO THE TIMES OF THE KINGDOM, when the righteous shall bear rule UPON THEIR RISING FROM THE DEAD; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the ELDERS WHO SAW JOHN, the DISCIPLE OF THE LORD, related that they had heard from him how THE LORD USED TO TEACH in regard to these times, and say: …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXIII (33), Points 2, 3-highlight)

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103533.htm

 

 

  1. Chiliasm Timeline Comment in light of these quotes too

 

 

 

  1. Since St. Irenaeous (and St. Papias) seem to believe in a NON ELECT SALVATION (only the term is not coined) as per quotes earlier, St. Irenaeous’ other quotes which survived may point to this part as follows:

[ To quote from Pages 2182 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

Where is the FIRST CHRISTIANITY CHILIASM QUOTE for this part? Please consider below where since St. Irenaeous of Lyons is quoting Luke 12:38 clearly below to refer to the 1000 years MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST (“TIMES of the KINGDOM” Timeline) so this CONTEXT APPLIES in FULL as discussed above:

“…  2. That the whole creation shall, according to God’s will, obtain a vast increase, that it may bring forth and sustain fruits such [as we have mentioned], Isaiah declares: And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every prominent hill, water running everywhere in that day, when many shall perish, when walls shall fall. And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, seven times that of the day, when He shall heal the anguish of His people, and do away with the pain of His stroke. Isaiah 30:25-26 Now the pain of the stroke means that inflicted at the beginning upon disobedient man in Adam, that is, death; which [stroke] the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers, as Isaiah again says: And you shall be confident in the Lord, and He will cause you to pass over the whole earth, and feed you with the inheritance of Jacob your father. Isaiah 58:14 This is what the Lord declared: Happy are those servants whom the Lord when He comes shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down [to meat], and will come forth and serve them. And if He shall come in the evening watch, and find them so, blessed are they, because He shall make them sit down, and minister to them; or if this be in the second, or it be in the third, blessed are they. Luke 12:37-38 Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Revelation 20:6 Then, too, Isaiah has declared the time when these events shall occur; he says: And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth. Isaiah 6:11 Then Daniel also says this very thing: And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him. Daniel 7:27 And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: And come, and stand in your lot at the consummation of the days. Daniel 12:13. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 30), Point 2)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103534.htm

[ To quote from Pages 2134 and 2135 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

Here are two mysterious quote by St. Irenaeous of Lyons which seem to point that during this LAST TRUMPET also there could be SOME SECOND BADGE of RIGHTEOUS SAVED [Hence a NON ELECT SALVATION TYPE if true] on JUDGMENT DAY:

 

“… Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church      (‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XIII, Point 1)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

 

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote of John 5:28 – 29 seem to point to the “Last Trumpet” (“Second Resurrection”) pointing to “hour is coming or HOUR SHALL COME” referring to John 5:28 – 29 literal simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ which is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5) WHICH SEEM TO BE EXTENDED TO THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE from ALL TIMELINES  and NOT THOSE MORTALS OF THE 1000 YEARS MILLENNIAL TIMELINE ONLY (Please read ‘his quote carefully next to note this’):

 

“… the same Lord has pointed out that the WHOLE HUMAN RACE SHALL BE DIVIDED AT JUDGMENT, “ AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDETH THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS,” [Matthew 25:32] and that to some He will say, “Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you,” [Matthew 25:34] but to others, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels,” [Matthew 25:41] one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], “making peace and creating evil things,” preparing fit things for both; …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church     (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book IV, Chapter XL, Points 2-partial)

Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html

 

This simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ above MUST BE NON ELECT SALVATION if True because it is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5)  where he believed it included all the thirty, sixty and hundredfold ones in the WEDDING of the LAMB, to quote (for comparison), yes St. Irenaeous of Lyons clearly affirms that this Position is Taught by the ‘Prebysters’ whom he refers below as the DIRECT DISCIPLES of the APOSTLES ONLY:

 

“… And as the presbyters* say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the WEDDING. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature… For in the TIMES of the KINGDOM, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die.John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the FIRST “RESURRECTION of the JUST,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church     (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter Chapter XXXVI, Points 1 – 2, 3-partial)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html

[Please notice the word WEDDING which indicates that the MARRIAGE of the LAMB with HIS CHURCH happens during CHRIST’S SECOND  COMING followed by the MILLENNIAL REIGN called the “TIMES of the KINGDOM” in his writing]

Please also notice that St. Irenaeous’ quote above include “ALL Christians”  because there are only three types of Christians namely, the “Thirtyfold, Sixtyfold and Hundredfold” harvest of the Gospel (Matthew 13:8) and all are mentioned in quote above to participate in the “First Resurrection only to partake of the Wedding of the Lamb” as those of the Second Resurrection 1000 years later (Revelation 20:5) will certainly “miss” this “Wedding Banquet of the Lamb” and so if anyone is saved during the “Second  Resurrection” it must be a NON ELECT SALVATION only.

 

 

Further POSSIBILITY claims in support of a NON ELECT SALVATION for WATER of LIFE Context and reference in Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17


0) Background

 

1) Non Elect Salvation Claims in St. Papias, St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr

 

2) Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 to happen on the Old Earth / Old Heavens

 

3) Water of Life reference in Revelation 21& 22 to happen on the New Earth/New Heavens

 

4) Comparison between Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 vs Revelation 21 & 22

 

5) Chiliasm Timeline Possibility Summary in regards to this “Water of Life” Context

 

Let’s repeat each of the above with supporting details and/or Page numbers in the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook where such details can be found.

 

0) Background

 

There is NOT a lot of early Christianity quotes regarding the Book of Revelation since it was Canonized later only. So the references in the 1st to 3rd Century are rare. However, some earliest known reference on it are found in the Writings of St. Papias, St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr who also happen to be very close to the Spiritual Lineage/Authority in Doctrine very close to Blessed Apostle St. John himself who wrote the Book of Revelation and so we quote them for it and they are most likely right. For example both St. Irenaeous of Lyons (disciple of St. Polycarp the direct disciple of Blessed Apostle St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, in Irenæus Haer. v. 33. 3, 4. Or ‘Against Heresies’ book which we quote often too) and Eusebius (Father of Church History, in Eusebius Hist. Eccl. iii. 39.) record in their writing that St. Papias actually wrote 5 Volumes of Books but only Fragments of which survive today. Even “Philip of Side” an early but less known Christian Historian also testified likewise that St. Papias actually wrote 5 Volumes of Books in Philippus of Side (?) Hist. Christ. Apart from that even St. Jerome of the Vulgate also Testified that that St. Papias actually wrote 5 Volumes of Books in Jerome de vir. illust. 18.

Each quote for St. Papias mentioned here and more I will do in the end but can be found in scholarly link below:

 

https://christianpublishinghouse.co/2020/06/10/papias-c-60-135-a-d-and-the-gospels-of-matthew-and-mark/

 

1) Non Elect Salvation Claims in St. Papias, St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr

 

[I am not going to repeat these quotes here as these can be found in the recent pages from  Pages 2254 to 2264 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

 

2) Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 to happen on the Old Earth / Old Heavens

 

“… 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” 13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” …” (Revelation 7:9 – 17, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/7.htm

 

 

 

3) Water of Life reference in Revelation 21& 22 to happen on the New Earth/New Heavens

 

“… 1And he showed me a [a]pure RIVER of WATER OF LIFE, clear as crystal, proceeding from the THRONE of GOD and of the LAMB. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the TREE OF LIFE, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. 3And there shall be NO MORE CURSE, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be NO NIGHT there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 5Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6And He said to me, “IT[C] IS DONE! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. 7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:1 – 8, NKJV)

 

“… But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.  … 1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE..  …  And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 20:5, 11 – 15, 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27, Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

Note: These are the onlyWater of Lifereferences found in “New Testament Scripture”. The other reference in Isaiah can refer to either of these (be it literal or allegorical) and so it does not matter.

 

4) Comparison between Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 vs Revelation 21 & 22

 

  1. i) Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 happens on the Old Earth / Old Heavens while the Water of Life reference in Revelation 21 & 22 happens on the New Earth/New Heavens

 

Proof Bible Phrases for these parts:

 

i.1) Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 happens on the Old Earth / Old Heavens

 

= “… 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” …” (Revelation 7:15 – 17, NKJV)

 

(meaning this occurs during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ when the First Resurrection occurs after Christ Returns, Revelation 20:4 – 6, Luke 20:34 – 36 below):

 

“… Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection Over such the second death has no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a THOUSAND YEARS But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED This is the first resurrection. …” (Revelation 20:4 – 7, 5, 11 – 15, NKJV)

 

“… 34JESUS ANSWERED and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that AGE (Aeon/Olam), and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 20:4 – 6), NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; 36NOR CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE, FOR THEY ARE EQUAL TO THE ANGELS and ARE SONS OF GOD, being SONS OF THE RESURRECTION. …” (Luke 20:34 – 36, NKJV)

 

How does the reference above refer to the Old Earth / Old Heavens?

 

The phrases “… day and night …” and “… the sun shall not strike them,  …” in the above indicates that this Water of Life for ELECT SALVATION indicated here by “… Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters …” happens on a place where DAY and NIGHT STILL EXISTS despite THAT PLACE is near the THRONE of GOD and HIS TEMPLE where in COMPARISON the FINAL THRONE of GOD and NEW JERUSALEM (1000 years later) DOES NOT HAVE “Day and Night” and also DOES NOT have ANY SUN anymore in it as these phrases “… 5There shall be NO NIGHT there  …” and “… They need no lamp nor light of the SUN …” in Verses later Testify below (can you see it?)

 

“… 5There shall be NO NIGHT there: They need no lamp nor light of the SUN, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 5Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6And He said to me, “IT[C] IS DONE! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Revelation 21:5 – 6, NKJV)

 

How do we know that the FIRST RESURRECTION includes ALL the ELECT from these VERSES?

 

=  “… 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”… 14And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” …” (Revelation 7:9 – 10, 14, 17, NKJV)

 

Please notice that the Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 itself proves that it can only be partaken even by CHRISTIANS (Elect Salvation) only in their FINAL RESURRECTION BODIES as these CAME OUT OF THAT GREAT FINAL TRIBULATION. Scripture does NOT Reveal thatany Christiansecretly partook of the “Water of Life” while alive in a sinful mortal body on earth disproving strongly the “allegorical” interpretation of the “Water of Life” being partaken now only allowing any “allegorical” interpretation to allow this to happen in the FINAL RESURRECTION BODY CONTEXT only (“fixed” in Verses here) with the Most Blessed Lamb of God (Lord Jesus Christ Himself Revealed to do that here).

i.2) Water of Life reference in Revelation 21 & 22 happens on the New Earth/New Heavens

 

The incident of “… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” in Revelation 21 below indicates it to happen AFTER JUDGMENT DAY where there is NO MORE NIGHT NOR SUN in that FINAL HEAVENLY NEW JERUSALEM CITY indicating that these happen in the FINAL New Earth/New Heavens:

 

“… 1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA.. … 5There shall be NO NIGHT there: They need no lamp nor light of the SUN, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 5Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6And He said to me, “IT[C] IS DONE! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. … 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … 22But I saw NO TEMPLE IN IT, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it, for the [m]glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it.” …” (Revelation 21:1, 5 – 6, 10, 22 – 26, NKJV)

 

Focus Phrases from the above for highlight:

 

“… I saw a new heaven and a new earth,   …” = FINAL New Earth/New Heavens CONTEXT

 

“… Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ….” = The FINAL New Earth has NO MORE SEA

 

“… 5There shall be NO NIGHT there …” = NO NIGHT in the FINAL NEW JERUSALEM CITY

 

“…They need no lamp nor light of the SUN…” = NO SUN in the FINAL NEW JERUSALEM CITY

 

“… SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  …” = FINAL NEW HEAVENLY JERUSALEM CITY CONTEXT

“… 22But I saw NO TEMPLE IN IT, …” = NO TEMPLE  in the FINAL New Earth/New Heavens NOR in the FINAL NEW HEAVENLY JERUSALEM CITY

 

“… 23The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine [l]in it  …” = The FINAL NEW HEAVENLY JERUSALEM CITY has NO SUN NOR MOON

 

Compare with the Old Earth / Old Heavens Verses earlier below:

 

“… 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” …” (Revelation 7:15 – 17, NKJV)

with Focus Phrases for the Verses here for highlight:

 

“… 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.  …” = TEMPLE  still existing in this Old Earth/Old Heavens in the EARTHLY REBUILT JERUSALEM CITY when the ELECT PARTAKE of this WATER of LIFE Timeline Context as St. Irenaeous of Lyons also described during the 1000 years Millennial Reign (example please see Pages 2112 and around it of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook for more details there)

 

“… before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night …” = NIGHT EXISTS in the REBUILT EARTHLY JERUSALEM CITY

 

“… before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night …” = SUN STILL EXISTS in the REBUILT EARTHLY JERUSALEM CITY for “DAY” to happen. This “Sun and Moon” still existing during the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ is Revealed also in Verse below:

 

“… Then the MOON SHALL BE CONFOUNDED, and the SUN ASHAMED, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.  …” (Isaiah 24:24, KJV)

 

Please notice the words “Sun and Moonin Verse above proving its existence at this time.

In Full:

“… 21And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22And they shall be gathered together, AS PRISONERS ARE GATHERED IN THE PIT, and shall be SHUT UP IN THE PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be VISITED .Then the MOON SHALL BE CONFOUNDED, and the SUN ASHAMED, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.  …” (Isaiah 24:21 – 24, KJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/kjv/isaiah/24.htm

 

Comment: The phrase “… and shall be SHUT UP IN THE PRISON, and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be VISITED . …” in Verses above regarding POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION I have discussed earlier say in Pages 1707 or 1802 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

  1. ii) Water of Life reference in Revelation 7 happens as an ELECT SALVATION on the CURRENT Old Earth / Old Heavens while the Water of Life reference in Revelation 21 & 22 happens as POSSIBLY a NON ELECT SALVATION on the FINAL New Earth/New Heavens

 

ELECT SALVATION getting the Water of Life CONTEXT

= “… 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” … 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” … “7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son  … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 7:9 – 10, 17, 21:7, 9 – 10, NKJV)

 

POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION getting the Water of Life CONTEXT

= “… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS.  … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. …  And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 21:6, 24 – 26, Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

Comment: The Gate in the Final New Earth seems to indicate that some may be saved on that Final New Earth only (indicating the existence of such a POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION strongly too) but never get to enter nor visit the Final Heavenly Jerusalem which connects Heaven to Earth Literally post-Judgment Day as the quoted Verses also describe this in CONTEXT around it:

 

“… 1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/21.htm

 

I mean IF EVERYONE of the “… NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED …” refers to ELECT SALVATION (as many Christians today claim), then WHY IS THERE A GATE FILTERING THOSE WHO CAN ENTER vs THOSE WHO CANNOT ENTER among those SAVED ones indicated by the phrase “… NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED  …” here (implied) in this FINAL NEW JERUSALEM HAVENLY CITY which DESCENDS and CONNECTS to that FINAL NEW EARTH LITERALLY as described here?

 

I mean IF EVERYONE of the “… NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED …” are of ELECT SALVATION on that FINAL NEW EARTH, then the GATES are NOT NECESSARY since everyone should be able to ENTER this FINAL NEW JERUSALEM HAVENLY CITY, right?

 

The GATES NOT BEING SHUT indicates that THE ELIGIBLE ONES to ENTER INTO IT (i.e. ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE) can VISIT it ANYTIME from the FINAL NEW EARTH is more likely the meaning. Likewise the “UNSAVED” being in the “LAKE of FIRECANNOT be on the FINAL NEW EARTH since it CANNOT be TOUCHED by SIN ANYMORE, right? I mean the OTHERS on the FINAL NEW EARTH who may NOT have THEIR NAMES WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE but may EXIST on this FINAL NEW EARTH may be examples of such POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION (if this interpretation true).

 

Let God Decide.

5) Chiliasm Timeline Possibility Summary in regards to this “Water of Life” Context

 

[From Page 2123 to 2125 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

Similarly the WATER of LIFE CANNOT be CHRIST because CHRIST HIMSELF INVITES SOME OTHER THAN THE BRIDE to DRINK of IT at THAT FUTURE TIME AFTER JUDGMENT DAY, highlighted Verses for this:

 

“… And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 22:17, NKJV)

 

Where possibly:

The Spirit = God

The Bride = Christians (those with Elect Salvation)

who thirsts” = those with non-Elect Salvation Possibility?

 

Comment: Please also notice that if the BRIDE (Christians, Elect Salvation) are calling to itself to drink of theWater of Life” in this AFTER JUDGMENT DAY Timeline, that implies that the SOME OF THE ELECT ARE STILL THIRSTY until then? I mean in Revelation 7 earlier we already see the Elect of “all” nations, tribe etc. partaking of the “WATER of LIFE” 1000 years earlier after that FINAL GREAT TRIBULATION when CHRIST RETURNS and it’s clearly Written that they WILL BE THIRSTY NO MORE meaning it is highly unlikely that some ELECT are STILL THIRSTY for 1000 years or DID NOT get to drink the “WATER of LIFE”, right? Please Compare these related Verses quoted below again:

 

“… 9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” … 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” …” (Revelation 7:9 – 10, 16 – 17, NKJV)

 

  1. iv) The “Overcomers” Vs the “Thirsty” ones Vs the “Damned

 

“… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Revelation 21:6, NKJV)

 

Let’s see this related Verse in full:

 

“… 5Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6And He said to me, “IT[C] IS DONE! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. 7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …” (Revelation 21:5 – 8, NKJV)

 

I find it hard to see that Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 21:7 Speak of the ‘same’ People especially with Revelation 22:17 above which seem more likely to Speak of Saved-Christians calling out to some recently saved non-Christians as per details next. Three groups of people seem to mentioned distinctly and compared here namely:

 

 

Possibility:

 

  1. i) The “Overcomers” = Christians (Elect Salvation) = “… 7He WHO OVERCOMES [d]SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. …” (Phrase in Verse above)

 

  1. ii) The “Thirsty” ones = non-Elect Salvation Possibility toward some non-Christians? = “… I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS. …” (Phrase in Verse above)

 

iii) The “Damned” = Unsaved in the Lake of Fire = “… 8But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” …”

Comment: Please notice that Revelation 21:5’s Context here shows GOD SPEAKING these things in that FUTURE TIMELINE in the CONTEXT of MAKING ALL THINGS NEW AFTER JUDGMENT DAY Results of ‘Lake of Fire’ even is REVEALED but there is a group which gets the WATER OF LIFE FREELY where “freely” indicates He has Mercy on whomever He Wills.

 

In comparison, the ‘thirsty ones’ given the ‘water of life freely’ in Revelation 21:6 most likely cannot be the same ones who “overcome” as mentioned in Revelation 21:7 as the thirsty ones sounds like they are much lower whilst the one who “overcomes must have faith” in comparison of the word “Thirsty” which indicates lack of believing as per John 7:37 – 39 too and thus may not be the same group either.

 

In light of these Verses, the “thirsty ones” could be ‘believing a little’ but not considered faith-level (for if they had faith they would have become the BRIDE, right?) while the “unbelievers” mentioned in Revelation 21:8 cast into the Lake of Fire could be those who absolutely reject everything God has Said in Christ. I mean, some could be believing some parts or WORDS of CHRIST who could come under the category of these “thirsty ones” or “those who only fully believe after seeing THE RISEN CHRIST CONTEXT” as Apostle Thomas example shows even, Verses:

 

 

“… JESUS SAID TO HIM, “Thomas, because you have SEEN ME, YOU HAVE BELIEVED. BLESSED ARE THOSE who have NOT SEEN and YET HAVE BELIEVED.” …” (John 20:29, NKJV)

 

Please also notice that the phrase “… . I will give of the fountain of the WATER OF LIFE FREELY TO HIM WHO THIRSTS.  …” (in Revelation 21:6) and “… And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” (in Revelation 22:17) seems to indicate that it is by their “own human will change/free choice” this option is  given for “repentance at that time to partake of WATER OF LIFE  this to be saved (i.e. “thirsty no more”) as these words used here indicate clearly namely “… Whoever desires …” (Free Will Choice) to “…HIM WHO THIRSTS …” (the “Unsaved”) to get it “… FREELY …” (Faith type of believing without seeing in life earlier was not a condition possibly for if not it cannot be “freely”, right? but only ‘believing after seeing invitation at that time’ instead in comparison) as even the FAITH FILLED BRIDE of CHRIST joins this CHORUS of INVITATION at that FUTURE TIME implying those saved then is most likely a POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION strongly too indicated by these Verses in the Final Book of the Bible.

 

 

Now, this is the MOST IMPORTANT point when reading all these POSSIBILITIES (which Gives ALL GLORY to GOD ALONE): NON Elect Salvation AFTER TIMES of the KINGDOM or 1000 years Millenial Reign of CHRIST and SOME NON-CHRISTIANS (if true) POSSIBLY GETTING the WATER OF LIFE  and/or the LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS WHICH OF COURSE has the SOURCE POWER from LORD JESUS CHRIST ONLY and this is the METHOD in which HE CHOOSES to ADMINISTER the POWER of HIS RESURRECTION and LIFE.

 

In Simple Words, SALVATION is BY LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE is TESTIFIED when these POSSIBILITIES are understood in FULL and this is NO WAY CONTRADICTS CHRIST’s PERFECT WORK of HIS CROSS but rather just REVEALS the POSSIBLE ENGINEERING or METHOD in which HE CHOOSES to ADMINISTER the POWER of HIS RESURRECTION and LIFE to us.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Peace to you

 

Free Will and Entering Heaven Context

 

Free Will cannot save you but it can determine the type of Salvation for if not, there wouldn’t even be three harvests of the Gospel namely thirtyfold, sixtyfold vs hundredfold which are “Reward” Level according to Christ in Matthew 19:29 below itself (please notice the Word “Hundredfold” carefully in Verse below to “realize” this and that this Reward occurs only in the REGENERATION (i.e. FIRST BODILY RESURRECTION) and NOT ON EARTH NOW as SOME PROSPERITY PASTORS DECEIVE YOU by TAKING YOUR MONEY and SHOWING IT OFF that they are chosen or getting that reward now, can you ‘see’ it?):

 

“… 27Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have LEFT ALL and FOLLOWED YOU. Therefore what shall we have?” 28So JESUS SAID TO THEM, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the REGENERATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And EVERYONE who has LEFT HOUSES or brothers or sisters or father or mother or WIFE or children or LANDS, for MY NAME’S SAKE, shall RECEIVE a HUNDREDFOLD, and INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. 30But MANY who are FIRST will be LAST, and the LAST FIRST. …” (Matthew 19:27 – 30, NKJV)

Firstly, please be very careful of so called “Christians (missionaries or otherwise)” who sometimes claim that “they are doing Gospel Work for no Reward and out of their good heart” simply because such people are “lying” and it Breaks the First Two Greatest Commands as “themselves are the IDOL for SELF” if they claim this as in comparison even Blessed Apostle St. Peter himself asks CHRIST above for “REWARDS”  in the phrase above “… See, we have LEFT ALL and FOLLOWED YOU. Therefore what shall we have?” …” where in Response to that the MOST BLESSED KING, LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF did NOT Brush it down but mentions the REWARDS they are TO GET indicating SEEKING HEAVENLY REWARD is TRUTH-SPEAKERS but SEEK NO REWARD on EARTH as He Commanded elsewhere as follows:

 

“… 34And if YOU LEND to those from whom you HOPE TO RECEIVE BACK, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35But LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, DO GOOD, AND LEND, [h]HOPING FOR NOTHING IN RETURN; and YOUR REWARD WILL BE GREAT, and YOU WILL BE SONS OF THE MOST HIGH. For He is KIND to the UNTHANKFUL AND EVIL. 36Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:27 – 36, NKJV)

Comment: Please notice that in Verses above, CHRIST HIMSELF Teaches that being “… SONS OF THE MOST HIGH …” is a REWARD for DOING THE CHARITY DOCTRINE ASPECT of GIVING MONEY to HELP even “ENEMIES” even and the Word “LEND” means but only IF NEVER ASKING it BACK and also to DO GOOD to ENEMIES (so if a so called Christian has not done this, he is NOT going to get this Reward of being “… SONS OF THE MOST HIGH …”  as ‘believing alone is not enough’) as CHRIST HIMSELF Teaches here.

 

Please remember that by “asking for Heavenly Rewards”, Blessed Apostle St. Peter was NOT Corrected by Christ as “being selfish nor as something wrong in attitude” but rather CHRIST RESPONDED in PRAISE in Verses prior too because GOD LOVES HONESTY. In fact, it was not revealed at that time that CHRIST had even another surprise waiting specifically for Blessed Apostle St. Peter and his fellow Apostles namely this (which Proves HOW MUCH GOD LOVED THEM BACK especially in regards to their “free will” choice to DO HIS WILL), i.e. their NAMES are WRITTEN on the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM CITY’s FOUNDATIONS:

“… Now the WALL OF THE CITY had TWELVE FOUNDATIONS, and on them WERE THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. …” (Revelation 21:14, NKJV)

Because if God Worked out our “reward level” in Heaven, it would be nothing short of Perfect or everybody gets “Hundredfold” Reward among Christians even. Since this is not the case, Christ’s Own Words above Reveal that this “Reward” of “Hundredfold” is by “Free Will (Choice)” of doing any of the listed things aboveas it is Written“. So the absence of Free Will Doctrine is simple namely, it can lead to “loss” of “rewards” among Christians if they are not careful.

 

Apart from that, “Entering Heaven” (the “City” = Heavenly Jerusalem City, Lowest Heaven which connects to that Final Earth) seems to be a “Reward” for “Doing His Commandments by Free Will” as the Verse below Describes again by CHRIST Himself:

 

“… 12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to GIVE TO EVERY ONE ACCORDING TO HIS WORK. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14BLESSED are those WHO DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the RIGHT to THE TREE OF LIFE, and may ENTER through the GATES INTO THE CITY. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star. …” (Revelation 22:12 – 16, NKJV)

So “not” having a proper “Doctrine on Free Will” may cause some of the “nations who are saved” case where they are on the “Final New Earth” only but cannot enter Heaven (i.e. cannot go through the gates into the City) unless their names are in the Most Blessed Lamb’s Book of Life as these Verses Describe clearly (for if “all the nations of those who are saved can enter heaven”, then there is NO NEED for ANY GATE to FILTER THEM even):

 

“… 1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/21.htm

 

Please remember that “converting many” with “no Free Will Doctrine for Reward” is not a small matter because it alone can determine whether one becomes “Least vs Great” in “Heaven” (Context) again as CHRIST Himself Teaches in Verses below since the “Teaching and Doing His Commands (which Primarily includes the “CHARITY DOCTRINE Command, please see next final point)” determines this “ Least vs Great ” in Heaven:

 

“… 19Whoever therefore BREAKS one of the LEAST of THESE COMMANDMENTS, and TEACHES men so, shall be called LEAST in the kingdom of HEAVEN; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES them, he shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of HEAVEN. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19, NKJV)

 

Please notice that “Doing His Commandsalone DOES NOT make one to get “Great Reward” in “Heaven as CHRIST Teaches above unless that SAME PERSON must FREELY TEACH others too (as the word “Teach” means) where whether or not other people obey is not your problem as that’s their free will and yours is done by obeying this. That is WHY CHRIST WARNED in Verses next as follows:

 

“… 19Whoever therefore BREAKS one of the LEAST of THESE COMMANDMENTS, and TEACHES men so, shall be called LEAST in the kingdom of HEAVEN; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES them, he shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of HEAVEN. For I say unto you, That except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS [1343 dikaiosynē] shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in NO CASE ENTER into the kingdom of HEAVEN …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19 – 20, NKJV)

 

Please note that Christ cannot be inviting them to do “God’s Will” if they cannot do it by “Choice” as that’s a fallacy as God only allows a “Choiceif it is in our “human will power” limited or imperfectly to do “His Will” which CHRIST POINTS AS HIS COMMANDS where CHARITY DOCTRINE is PRIMARY as we shall see next too and that’s why the “condition” for entering “Heaven” type of Salvation is to do “His Will” and the relative measure for it is just the ‘Pharisees’ human measure’ for us to ‘exceed’, in Verses above by Christ Himself.

 

So CHRIST requires the CHRISTIAN FILTHY RAGS to EXCEED the PHARISEES’ FILTHY RAGS in TRYING TO OBEY GOD (human FILTHY RAGS) measure only for HIM to REWARD us to ENTER HEAVEN. Can you “see” it?

 

Here is that famous Filthy Rags Verse:

“… But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. …” (Isaiah 64:6, NKJV) Source: https://biblehub.com/isaiah/64-6.htm

Compare:

 

“… And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. …” (Revelation 19:8, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/revelation/19-8.htm

 

But in the Book of Revelation the “Righteous ACTS of the SAINTS (not of Christ’s highlighted here in next Verse)” are also called as “CLEAN, FINE, BRIGHT” so perhaps this is the “ YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”: CHRIST SPEAKS earlier in Matthew 5:19 – 20 which becomes like that SIMPLY BECAUSE ONLY HIS COMMANDS (not Torah etc. but only the NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDS by HIM) CAN BECOME “CLEAN, FINE, BRIGHT” WHEN DONE as the “Righteous ACTS of the SAINTS (not Christ)” meant here as the SOURCE IS CHRIST WHEN OBEYED (the “JESUS in YOU PRINCIPLE” in that HE DOES IT THORUGH us as VESSELS whenever “… whoever HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN WHO BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” as HE SAID in Matthew 7:24 earlier. That is WHY we invite CHRISTIANS and non-CHRISTIANS to DO HIS COMMANDS especially HIS CHARITY DOCTRINE COMMANDS as JUDGMENT DAY POINTS (Matthew 25:31 – 46).

 

 

Please “remember” the WARNING in SCRIPTURE that “… and knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV)…” I have quoted the PSEUDO CHRYSOSTHOM WRITINGS (4th to 5th Century) in the end of this write up which seem to point to an equivalent CONTEXT as per the phrase POSSIBLY recorded in FIRST CHRISTIANITY preserving the meaning CHRIST MEANT for the CONTEXT of Matthew 5:19 – 20 earlier as “… Whosoever in addition to the commandments of the Law shall not fulfil My commandments, shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. …”.

 

Entering Heaven” Context is most clear in the above where Christ Himself Repeats this meaning of Entering into the Lowest Heaven (the Final New Jerusalem “City”) with the CONDITION of OBEYING HIS COMMANDS:

 

“… 14BLESSED are those WHO DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the RIGHT to THE TREE OF LIFE, and may ENTER through the GATES INTO THE CITY.. … 16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.  …” (Revelation 22:14, 16, NKJV)

 

Example Comment from Page 2166 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook (more details there):

Matthew 7:20 – 24’s End Time Christianity did “… Prophesying, Casting Out Demons, Miracles … conversions of MANY …” but Christ Says, “… I NEVER KNEW YOU …” due to LAWLESSNESS. Matthew 5:19 – 20 Christ Says one’s righteousness will need to exceed the Pharisees in obedience to “His Commands” (not the abolished Torah parts but ‘what He Commanded and re-enforced for the New Testament’).

 

If HOLINESS + BELIEVING in CHRIST was enough to ENTER HEAVEN then CHRIST Would have SAID only the “Keep the Commandments” and “Follow me part” in Verses below but HE DID NOT as He added also the CHARITY DOCTRINE part of “… “IF you want to be PERFECT, go, SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.”  ….” Specifically to INHERIT HEAVEN CONTEXT as the phrase “… and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN …” means (Can you see it?):

 

“… 16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[d] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17So He said to him, [e]“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth. What do I STILL LACK?” 21JESUS said to him, “IF you want to be PERFECT, go, SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away SORROWFUL, for he had GREAT POSSESSIONS. 23Then JESUS said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is HARD for a RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 24And AGAIN I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. …” (Matthew 19:20 – 24, NKJV)

I think it means as follows:

 

Question 1

 

“… Good[d] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” …”

 

Reply 1

For “Eternal Life” Context (i.e. “… if you want to enter into life …”), the “Holiness Commands are Sufficient” as CHRIST only Quotes these specifically:

 

“… But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth.  …”

Question 2

 

But is Holiness Command sufficient to ENTER HEAVEN and INHERIT it CONTEXT?

 

Reply 2

For PEREFECTION TYPE of SALVATION, CHRIST uses the WORD “HEAVEN” ONLY in Reply NOW meaning “Eternal Life” and “Inheriting Heaven are NOT the same thing” as one can have ETERNAL Life in the FINAL NEW EARTH possibly without even ENTERTING through the GATES into the LOWEST HEAVENLY JERUSALEM CITY which CONNECTS to that FINAL NEW EARTH as Verses prior describe (or can imply). So what’s needed for “ENTERING HEAVEN” type of Salvation?

(so collectively we can understand that this TORAH KEEPING RICH YOUNG RULER is LACKING the ENTERING AND INHERITING HEAVEN TYPE of SALVATION) as CHRIST Answers him next as follows which certainly INCLUDES the CHARITY DOCTRINE either as a MUST for ENTERING HEAVEN (by “Relative Measure” as this person had money) or it determines the HEAVEN’s GRADATION of THIRTY vs SIXTY vs HUNDRED FOLD Rewards too as the Phrase “… TREASURE IN HEAVEN  …” points to the CONTEXT of “HEAVEN ” here clearly by CHRIST:

“… 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept [g]from my youth. What do I STILL LACK?” 21JESUS said to him, “IF you want to be PERFECT, go, SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR, and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN; and come, FOLLOW ME.” 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away SORROWFUL, for he had GREAT POSSESSIONS. 23Then JESUS said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is HARD for a RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 24And AGAIN I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. …” (Matthew 19:20 – 24, NKJV)

 

Further Comments:

Please allow me to repeat this Crucial Scriptural Fact regarding ENTERING HEAVEN CONTEXT where CHRIST  (NOT me) Directly ties it up with MONEY SPENDING CONTEXT as the REASON why EVEN A TORAH KEEPING OBEDIENT RICH MAN could NOT enter HEAVEN but can be SAVED (probably in the Final New Earth, in light of the First Christianity quotes + Bible Verses earlier) where “Perfection” of “Salvation” is the “Entering Heaven type” which has three levels namely “Thirtyfold vs Sixtyfold vs Hundredfold Rewards”* which is Directly linked first to the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE ONLY BY CHRIST HIMSELF (in Verses next). I repeat: USE of EARTHLY WEALTH for the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE for the LEVEL of “TREASURE” in “HEAVENS” CONTEXT with no other righteous act in Scripture mentioned in connection with “Heaven” directly (If you find one please let me know)

Comment: Contrary to common fallacy that the claim the rich man couldn’t enter heaven because of “not keeping the 10 commandments”, CHRIST APPROVES his keeping of it because when he asked “What do I STILL LACK?CHRIST doesn’t Say he is missing anything other than the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE + FOLLOWING CHRIST (Christ does NOT lie so there’s nothing hidden further). Please notice that CHRIST DID NOT just SAY FOLLOW (believe) HIM only to get HEAVEN BUT SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED the CHARITY DOCTRINE PART of “…SELL what YOU HAVE and GIVE to the POOR,…” to attain to the PERFECTION TYPE of SALVATION to ENTER HEAVEN so that “… and YOU WILL HAVE TREASURE IN HEAVEN;  …”. Can you “see” it “as it is Written”?

 

“…  31“But SEEK HIS KINGDOM, and THESE THINGS will be ADDED TO YOU. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33“SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS and GIVE TO CHARITY; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an UNFAILING TREASURE IN HEAVEN, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS, THERE YOUR HEART WILL BE ALSO. 35“Be dressed in readiness, and KEEP YOUR LAMPS LIT. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:31 – 35, NASB) .  St. Papias’ related First Christianity quotes in Pages 1147 to 1151 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook as even St. Ireneaous concurs in Pages 2135 ors 2185 too.

 

Since “… NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV) here is a FIRST CHRISTIANITY QUOTE for this for the CLAIM that there is ENTERING HEAVEN TYPE of SALVATION vs NOT ENTERING HEAVEN TYPE of SALVATION next.

 

I’m going to quote a part of the Pseudo-Chrysostom collections which seem to explain this NON-ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY well. Again, this PROVES that SUCH AN UNDERSTANDING was in FIRST CHRISTIANITY’s ORTHODOX too and so we may contemplate it likewise (letting God Alone Decide which is it in the end).

 

“… The righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees are the commandments of Moses; but the commandments of Christ are the fulfilment of that Law. This then is His meaning; Whosoever in addition to the commandments of the Law shall not fulfil My commandments, shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. For those indeed save from the punishment due to transgressors of the Law, but do not bring into the kingdom; but My commandments both deliver from punishment, [p. 174] and bring into the kingdom. But seeing that to break the least commandments and not to keep them are one and the same, why does He say above of him that breaks the commandments, that “he shall be the least in the kingdom of heaven,” and here of him who keeps them not, that he “shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven?” See how to be the least in the kingdom is the same with not entering into the kingdom. For a man to be in the kingdom is not to reign with Christ, but only to be numbered among Christ’s people; what He says then of him that breaks the commandments is, that he shall indeed be reckoned among Christians, yet the least of them. but he who enters into the kingdom, becomes partaker of His kingdom with Christ. Therefore he who does not enter into the kingdom of heaven, shall not indeed have a part of Christ’s glory, yet shall he be in the kingdom of heaven, that is, in the number of those over whom Christ reigns as King of heaven…” – from a Pseudo-Chrysostom Manuscript (c. 4th – 5th Century)

 

Source:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/matthew-commentary/catena-aurea-on-matthew/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5

There are more details in Pages 1796 onward regarding the ‘meaning of this quote’ which is “LATE FIRST CHRISTIANITY” (4th to 5th Century) and even within this OFFICIAL ROMAN CATHOLIC BIBLE’S COMMENTARY above proving its WIDESPREADNESS too regarding such an understanding of the CONTEXT of INTERPRETATION of PROPHECY in SCRIPTURE. Can you “see” it?

 

Based on this Pseudo-Chrysostom Manuscript quote our definition of “Kingdom of Heaven” (at the start, Page 2092) can be as follows:

 

 

  1. i) Elect Salvation = Christians = His Bride Saved to Inherit the Heavens with Gradations of Thirty, Sixty and Hundredfold among them where they inherit all things but have ‘specific difference in rewards too‘ with Celestial (“Heavenly”) Final Resurrection Body sharing ONE FLESH with CHRIST in some way to inherit its Glory = “… For those indeed save from the punishment due to transgressors of the Law, but do not bring into the kingdom; but My commandments both deliver from punishment, [p. 174] and bring into the kingdom. …” – Pseudo-Chrysostom Manuscript part for this (c. 4th – 5th Century)

 

 

  1. ii) Non Elect Salvation Possibility = NOT Christ’s Bride = NOT Christians so they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth with gradation and rewards among them too with Final Earthly (“Terrestrial”) Resurrection Body glory only = “… But seeing that to break the least commandments and not to keep them are one and the same, why does He say above of him that breaks the commandments, that “he shall be the least in the kingdom of heaven,” and here of him who keeps them not, that he “shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven?” See how to be the least in the kingdom is the same with not entering into the kingdom.…. For a man to be in the kingdom is not to reign with Christ, but only to be numbered among Christ’s people; what He says then of him that breaks the commandments is, that he shall indeed be reckoned among Christians, yet the least of them. but he who enters into the kingdom, becomes partaker of His kingdom with Christ. Therefore he who does not enter into the kingdom of heaven, shall not indeed have a part of Christ’s glory, yet shall he be in the kingdom of heaven, that is, in the number of those over whom Christ reigns as King of heaven…” – Pseudo-Chrysostom Manuscript part for this (c. 4th – 5th Century)

 

 

 

Since “… NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV) here is a FIRST CHRISTIANITY QUOTE for this for the CLAIM that the CHARITY DOCTRINE is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE to INHERIT the HUNDREDFOLD TYPE of REWARD LEVEL of INHERITANCE of HEAVENS (by “Relative Measure”):

 

[To quote from Pages 2258 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook , more details there; please notice the phrases “…. he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold …”,times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, true Sabbath of the righteous in his own words below carefully”]

 

“… 2. And for this reason the Lord declared, When you make a dinner or a supper, do not call your friends, nor your neighbours, nor your kinsfolk, lest they ask you in return, and so repay you. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and you shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense you, but a recompense shall be made you at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:12-13 And again He says, Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29; Luke 18:29-30 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.

 

  1. The blessing of Isaac with which he blessed his younger son Jacob has the same meaning, when he says, Behold, the smell of my son is as the smell of a full field which the Lord has blessed. Genesis 27:27, etc. But the field is the world. Matthew 13:38 And therefore he added, God give to you of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, plenty of grain and wine. And let the nations serve you, and kings bow down to you; and be lord over your brother, and your father’s sons shall bow down to you: CURSED SHALL BE HE WHO SHALL CURSE THEE, and BLESSED SHALL BE HE WHO SHALL BLESS THEE .” [Genesis 12:3] If any one, then, DOES NOT ACCEPT THESE THINGS AS REFERRING TO THE APPOINTED KINGDOM, he must fall into much CONTRADICTION and CONTRARIETY, as is the CASE WITH THE JEWS, who are INVOLVED IN ABSOLUTE PERPLEXITY. For not only did not the nations in this life serve this Jacob; but even after he had received the blessing, he himself going forth [from his home], served his uncle Laban the Syrian for twenty years; and not only was he not made lord of his brother, but he did himself bow down before his brother Esau, upon his return from Mesopotamia to his father, and offered many gifts to him. Moreover, in what way did he inherit much corn and wine here, he who emigrated to Egypt because of the famine which possessed the land in which he was dwelling, and became Subject to Pharaoh, who was then ruling over Egypt? The PREDICTED BLESSING, therefore, BELONGS UNQUESTIONABLY TO THE TIMES OF THE KINGDOM, when the righteous shall bear rule UPON THEIR RISING FROM THE DEAD; when also the creation, having been renovated and set free, shall fructify with an abundance of all kinds of food, from the dew of heaven, and from the fertility of the earth: as the ELDERS WHO SAW JOHN, the DISCIPLE OF THE LORD, related that they had heard from him how THE LORD USED TO TEACH in regard to these times, and say: …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter XXXIII (33), Points 2, 3-highlight)

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103533.htm

 

Before your modern beliefs can be right, all these Bible Verses and First Christianity quotes must turn out wrong first. Now, what are the odds of even say St. Irenaeous of Lyons is wrong and John Calvin or even Martin Luther is right in contrast?

 

May God Help us to do His Will in regard to ENTERING HEAVEN CONTEXT as HE DID NOT just SAY BELIEVE ME and I WILL GIVE YOU HEAVEN in ANY OF THESE VERSES IN HIS OWN WORDS even as He ADDED the CONDITION of FREE WILL (CHOICE) to DO HIS CHARITY DOCTRINE COMMAND mostly with the REWARD of TREASURE in HEAVEN even.

Please remember that if Calvinism or modern Protestantism is right, we still get heaven (no loss) since every Christian is equal but if these First Christianity quotes and Bible Verses mean differently as shown (more likely as you can see), then the risk of following them is losing entering Heaven type of Salvation (which is for “Eternity”) and so to be “Safe Scripturally” that’s why we Teach these as stated.

[ To quote from Page 1905 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

Did the EARLIEST CHURCH FATHERS Teach about FREE CHOICE?

 

Yes, I have listed “Church Fathers” Quotes on “Free Choice” from Pages 932 to 949 in the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook who Teach similarly. However our “FREE CHOICE” is NOT ABSOLUTE because GOD allows a “FAIR CHOICE” of both TEMPTATION and ESCAPE to be there which can be influenced by HIS WILL, Satan and also other humans via interaction or even angels too invisible to us as I have discussed say in Page 1709 of this same book.

 

[ To quote from Page 862 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

Christ Taught it Directly in this Phrase “… YOU WERE UNWILLING …” in Verses below Generally in the Context of “not” Obeying “nor” Receiving the Message of the Prophets of God, Verses:

 

“… Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE UNWILLING. “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’ …” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:37 – 39, NASB)

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

Closeness to God Mystery via the 144000 Case

 

A lot of Christians think that if there is a “big number of converts”-via a Pastor or “big money earned” by a Church-Attendee, those are proof of being “closest to God”. Strangely, the Bible Reveals “differently” as shown next even among the Elect itself.

[to quote from Page 133 & 134 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

3) If the number of converts is meant as ‘sow and reap sparingly’, then how come the 144000 purely “Jewish Virgin Men” are the “Firstfruit” of salvation itself as mentioned in Revelation 7:1 – 10, Revelation 14:1 – 5 as in comparison of history, how many ‘preachers which big church/big conversions’ (in history) are purely “… unmarried Jewish Virgin Men …”? so the greatness in the Kingdom is “not” based on ‘number of converts’ but the ‘Level of Obedience to His New Testament Commands’ (as Matthew 5:19 – 20 Reveals).

 

God is Fair to each Christian in this way as it’s based on ‘Relative Measure’ only His Principle as elaborated in the Poor Widow’s giving example in Luke 21:1 – 4. Two people, one with 1000 converts while another with 2 converts can be equal if they work as hard for the Kingdom and keep His Commands Equally well in ‘Relative Measure’ (Let God Judge those measurements for He Alone is without Bias and will be Fair to all).

 

[to quote from Page 374 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

Please remember that even in Heaven there is order and we cannot do as we like. Here’s a gender based order even based on even whether one was married or not too which refers not to some normal salvation but the very “FIRSTFRUITS OF SALVATION” (Kind of like the very TITHES OF SALVATION, THE PUREST ONES), Verses:

 

“… 1Then I looked, and behold, [a]a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and WITH HIM ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, [b]having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. … . 3They SANG AS IT WERE A NEW SONG before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and NO ONE COULD LEARN THAT SONG except the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND who were redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones WHO WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN, FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are the ones WHO FOLLOW THE LAMB WHEREVER HE GOES. These were [c]redeemed from among men, being FIRSTFRUITS to God and to the Lamb …” (Revelation 14:1, 3 – 4, NKJV)

 

Comments: The “Firstfruits” of Salvation (Holiest lot) itself belongs to a particular 144000 “unmarried Jewish Virgin Men” likewise proving this Context for such “Eunuchs” too below*. So can any of your woman pastors in all of Christianity take a place among these 144000? Even we as males cannot unless they were chosen for this being unmarried Jewish Virgin Men”  only. So we don’t “covet” that which is not ours.

 

*Related Verses for “Eunuch” for the “Kingdom of Heaven” sake as the 144000 are such:

 

“… For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves EUNUCHS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN’S SAKE. He who is ABLE TO ACCEPT IT, LET HIM ACCEPT IT.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:12, NKJV)

 

“…  7For I WISH THAT ALL MEN WERE EVEN as I MYSELF. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8But I say to the UNMARRIED AND TO THE WIDOWS: IT IS GOOD FOR THEM IF THEY REMAIN EVEN AS I AM; 9but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. … 28 But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Nevertheless such will have TROUBLE IN THE FLESH, but I WOULD SPARE YOU. … 32But I want you to be without care. He who is UNMARRIED CARES FOR THE THINGS OF THE LORD—how he may PLEASE THE LORD. 33But HE WHO IS MARRIED CARES about the THINGS OF THE WORLD—how he may PLEASE HIS WIFE. … 38So then he who GIVES HER IN MARRIAGE DOES WELL, but he WHO DOES NOT GIVE HER IN MARRIAGE DOES BETTER. …” (1 Corinthians 7:7 – 9, 28, 32 – 33, 38, NKJV)

 

“… 1Thus SAYS THE LORD: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, For MY SALVATION IS ABOUT TO COME, And My RIGHTEOUSNESS TO BE REVEALED. 2Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,

And keeps his hand from doing any evil.” 3Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the Lord Speak, saying, “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”; NOR LET THE EUNUCH SAY, “Here I am, a dry tree.”4For THUS SAYS THE LORD: “TO THE EUNUCHS who keep my sabbaths, And CHOOSE WHAT PLEASES ME, And hold fast My covenant, 5Even to them I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE AND A NAME BETTER THAN THAT OF SONS AND DAUGHTERS; I will give [a]them AN EVERLASTING NAME That SHALL NOT BE CUT OFF. …” (Isaiah 56:1 – 5, NKJV)

 

Note: The Promises in these particular Set of Verses is “not” for every believer at that time even but only toward “EUNUCHS”.

 

The phrase “… I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE …” = Seem to Point to a “special Level of Heavenly Inheritanceabove the usual one given to other saved “… SONS AND DAUGHTERS; …”

The phrase “… I WILL GIVE IN MY HOUSE And WITHIN MY WALLS A PLACE … And A NAME …” = Seem to Point to a “special Level of Title/Rank” above the usual one given to other saved “… SONS AND DAUGHTERS; …”

The phrase “…  I will give [a]them AN EVERLASTING NAME That SHALL NOT BE CUT OFF.. …” means their above than usual Reward and Name in His Kingdom than usual one given to other saved “… SONS AND DAUGHTERS; …” is “not” a temporary reward nor a temporaryNAME GIVEN BY GOD” but a permanent and “EVERLASTING” [Olam] one.

 

Peace to you

 

Daniel 12:5 – 10

 

“… 5Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

 

7Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

 

8Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

 

9And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. …” (Daniel 12:5 – 10, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/daniel/12.htm

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Understanding Difficult POSSIBILITIES in St. Irenaeous of Lyons with other Saint Quotes

 

Focus: Non Elect Salvation POSSIBILITY Primarily with Evangelical Motivation for this.

 

Possibility” because, as you can see (after reading first please), that it’s “not” easy to ascertain either way 100% (at least not for me).

 

Evangelical Motivation for this: It’s a fact that NOT everyone is going to convert and become a Christian on earth now (even when you Preach absolute Eternal Hell Theology to them, and they reject it knowingly meaning we did NOT deceive anyone as each chooses ‘what they believe’) and those who are of such, we encourage them to do at least the CHARITY DOCTRINE Commands (“not” to manipulate them to give us business or work so that we can be rich simply because that’s what the PROSPERITY GOSPEL TEACHES and NOT US where we believe that each Christian (pastor or otherwise) must live out LIKEWISE the CHARITY DOCTRINE COMMANDS of CHRIST) meaning it is PERFECTLY Fair as what we ask the non-Christians to do to us, we as Christians also ought to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOURS to OUR ENEMIES with these CHARITY DOCTRINE COMMANDS of CHRIST as well.

Can you “see” it?

A ”religious manipulator” would “not” teach such as in such a perspective,  because such manipulators would say “Give money to their religion (or them)” but they themselves would have “no” obligation “nor” Free Will desire to do say “Charity Doctrinebeyond their own family, nor beyond their own religion/denomination/Church, nor beyond their own race etc. which WE STRONGLY OPPOSE as CHRIST TAUGHT that THE HYPOCRITE PHARISEES were likewise and we NEED to EXCEED THEIR LEVEL of “righteousness” to ENTER HEAVEN (please see St. Irenaeous’ quotes in Pages 2328 to 2330 Teaching this same way) even as most clearly depicted in CHRIST’s PARABLE of the GOOD SAMARITAN  in Luke 10:25 – 37 (example Page 2039)  where CHRIST’s CHOICE of the SAMARITAN doing those CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS  in the CONTEXT of INHERITING ETERNAL LIFE toward the “Wounded JEW” (in analogy “CHRISTIAN” who are the real “SPIRITUAL JEWS” according to Romans 2:29) is interesting as CHRIST mentioned elsewhere that SAMARITANS DO NOT KNOW GOD at all in this Verse in HIS OWN WORDS/DEFINITION as “… 22You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. …” (John 4:22, NKJV) so in analogy can imply the “POSSIBILITY” that NON ELECT SALVATION for NON-CHRISTIANS likewise for FRUIT of CHARITY DOCTRINE toward CHRISTIANS to apply) but we cannot be sure 100% because it’s hidden in the “Parable” and only God Knows.

 

Now, let me ask you in return where you don’t need to answer me but Answer God and your own conscience (if you don’t believe in God) these questions then:

 

  1. What is so good about your moral perspective of say when you receive money, work or promotion and use it for your family or your own race or your own Church only?

 

  1. What is so good about your moral perspective of say when you say all must get heaven even the wicked I mean would you even give your house for the wicked to stay with your money after they rape your wife or daughters (or even if it was not rape but willingly, meaning of fornication and adultery)?

 

iii. What is so good about your moral perspective of say when you say all must get heaven even the wicked I mean would you even give your house for the wicked to stay with your money after they use every money of theirs for themselves only seeking Prosperity Lifestyle but never helped those in need (or only helped little)?

 

  1. What is so good about your moral perspective of living a life without the CHARITY DOCTRINE if it is toward your own family only, or toward those of your own, or toward your own race only, or toward your own religion/denomination/Church only, etc.?I did “not” ask the last Question above but LORD JESUS CHRIST Himself in Verses below:

 

“… 32“But IF YOU LOVE THOSE WHO LOVE YOU, WHAT CREDIT IS THAT TO YOU? …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:32, NKJV)

 

“… WHAT DO YOU DO MORE THAN OTHERS? …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:47, NKJV)

 

“… 33And IF YOU DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO DO GOOD TO YOU, WHAT CREDIT IS THAT TO YOU?  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:33, NKJV)

 

So if God sends “people” who did NOT do any of the above to ETERNAL HELL or some of them (according to the degree in which any Practiced these Commands of His) to only a LOWER SALVATION in the FINAL NEW EARTH WITHOUT ENTERING HEAVEN (if such an interpretation is True), what is UNFAIR?

Evangelical Motivation continued for this: For those who are not going to convert and become a Christian on earth now what are we doing for them as a “Churchapart from condemning them to Hell? I mean, if there is a chance for them via this CHARITY DOCTRINE, then we rather Preach it as a “POSSIBILITY” to them so at least “we tried” based on those Bible Verses and First Christianity quotes. Without doing this “Charity Doctrine”, we also make the world a darker place to live as humans too as PROSPERITY SEEKING cases SELFISHNESS since it is motivated by life here to be enjoyed fully. We do not “trick” anyone to Eternal Hell if Eternal Hell turns out to be true either simply because we already state this too as a “POSSIBILITY” likewise and so each decision by every person who has heard us is made by “their own free will choice” only.

 

Problem: Some Christians like to quote St. Irenaeous, St. Justin, St. Clement or even St. Ignatius to prove the “Eternal Hell” Quotes and then assume that their modern denomination or Church is Teaching the “same”. The problem is obvious namely:

 

  1. Few Christians only know what St. Irenaeous, St. Justin, St. Clement or even St. Ignatius wrote in regards to Salvation for example their strong “Charity Doctrine” quotes as “Fruits for Eternal Life & Proof of Repentance” and fewer still among modern protestant Churches even Practice or Preach it or do only little in this in Relative Measure for the sole reason of belief in the “Prosperity Gospel” and so it justifies luxury living and other things which these same saints may easily condemn them to “Eternal Hell” even for.

 

  1. Who they meant as “unsaved” or “not Christian even” may refer to a “wider scope” making even a NON ELECT SALVATION definition as possible (only the term is not coined).

 

iii. I mean, if modern Christians do not want to accept even St. Irenaeous, St. Justin, St. Clement or even St. Ignatius’ other quotes from their “same writings even which they quote for the Eternal Hell part”, they should skip this too as it is only fair to “quote them for the other parts too or neither if they claim inaccuracysince the part their quoting could be inaccurate then too by fair treatment.

 

  1. If several quotes are early, which Saint is “earlier” that is more likely true, and that’s the way I see the RULE of POSSIBILITY.

 

Can you “seewhy I write all these?

 

 

Next, let’s see these Quotes by Topics/Possibilities:

 

1) Non Elect Salvation and/or Believing after seeing POSSIBILITY  with the Millennial Reign Chiliasm Timeline

 

2) Charity Doctrine for Fruit of Eternal Life by Relative Measure

 

3) CHRISTIANS CHANGE into AN ANGELIC BEAUTY MYSTERY AT THE LAST TRUMPET

 

Now let’s repeat each of the above with related FIRST CHRISTIANITY quotes Since “… NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV):

 

1) Non Elect Salvation and/or Believing after seeing POSSIBILITY  with the Millennial Reign Chiliasm Timeline

 

I am going to quote St. Ignatius of Antioch first here but please note that each of the “shorter or longer” writings as they are called today doesn’t really matter much because if his letters were not authentic, even the Eternal Hell quotes may not be authentic either as no one can be sure that even the short writings were 100% preserved due to example reasons below:

 

“…  Ever since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, the authenticity of all the Ignatian epistles has come under intense scrutiny. John Calvin called the epistles “rubbish published under Ignatius’ name.”[4]: 119  Some Protestants have tended to want to deny the authenticity of all the epistles attributed to Ignatius because they seem to attest to the existence of a monarchical episcopate in the second century. The Roman Catholic Church has long held up the authenticity of the letters from past to present.[36]

 

In 1886, Presbyterian minister and church historian William Dool Killen published an essay extensively arguing that none of the epistles attributed to Ignatius is authentic. Instead, he argued that Callixtus, bishop of Rome, forged the letters around AD 220 to garner support for a monarchical episcopate, modeling the renowned Saint Ignatius after his own life to give precedent for his own authority.[37]: 137  Killen contrasted this episcopal polity with the presbyterian polity in the writings of Polycarp.[37]: 127

 

Some doubts about the authenticity of the original letters continued into the 20th century. In the late 1970s and 1980s, the scholars Robert Joly,[38] Reinhard Hübner,[39] Markus Vinzent,[40] and Thomas Lechner[41] argued forcefully that the epistles of the Middle Recension were forgeries written during the reign of Marcus Aurelius (161–180 AD). Around the same time, the scholar Joseph Ruis-Camps published a study arguing that the Middle Recension letters were pseudepigraphically composed based on an original, smaller, authentic corpus of four letters (Romans, Magnesians, Trallians, and Ephesians). In 2009, Otto Zwierlein took up the thesis of a fake, made around 170.[42]

 

These publications stirred up tremendous, heated controversy in the scholarly community at the time,[4]: 122  but in 2017, most patristic scholars accepted the authenticity of the seven original epistles.[4]: 121ff [43][44][45] However, J. Lookadoo said in 2020 that “the debate has received renewed energy since the late 1990s and shows few signs of slowing.”[46]

 

The original texts of six of the seven original letters are found in the Codex Mediceo Laurentianus written in Greek in the 11th century (which also contains the pseudepigraphical letters of the Long Recension, except that to the Philippians),[47] while the letter to the Romans is found in the Codex Colbertinus.[12] … …”

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

 

where in comparison, St. Irenaeous’ Against Heresies Book has even a Fragment dated to circa 200 AD (as I have shown in Pages 1946 to 1949) with numerous Latin copies itself preserved very well from his timeline itself making one of the best candidates for First Christianity. So let’s see these “St. Ignatius of Antioch’s” quotes below which if it was a forgery or not by him still reveals some perspective as to what some “Orthodox Christians thought” was:

 

“… Chapter II.-Christ’s True Passion.

Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits. Now, He suffered all these things for us; and He suffered them really, and not in appearance only, even as also He truly rose again. But not, as some of the unbelievers, who are ashamed of the formation of man, and the cross, and death itself, affirm, that in appearance only, and not in truth, He took a body of the Virgin, and suffered only in appearance, forgetting, as they do, Him who said, “The Word was made flesh; ” and again, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up; ” and once more, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME [John 12:32].” The Word therefore did dwell in flesh, for “Wisdom built herself an house.” The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness [John 3:14], DREW ALL MEN to Himself for their ETERNAL SALVATION [John 12:32]. …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter II)

Source: https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

Or

 

“… Chapter I.-Reason of Writing the Epistle.

Having been informed of your godly love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of the most honourable of all names, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, the constant source of our life, and of faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred, but especially of Jesus and the Father, in whom, if we endure all the assaults of the prince of this world, and escape them, we shall enjoy God.

Having been informed of your godly love, so well-ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ. For as one who has been thought worthy of a divine and desirable name, in those bonds which I bear about, I commend the Churches, in which I pray for a union both of the flesh and spirit of Jesus Christ, “who is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe; “ by whose blood ye were redeemed; by whom ye have known God, or rather have been known by Him; in whom enduring, ye shall escape all the assaults of this world: for “He is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able.” …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter I)

Source: https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-longer.html

 

Or

“…  Chapter VIII.-Renewed Praise of the Ephesians.

Let not then any one deceive you, as indeed ye are not deceived, inasmuch as ye are wholly devoted to God. For since there is no strife raging among you which might distress you, ye are certainly living in accordance with God’s will. I am far inferior to you, and require to be sanctified by your Church of Ephesus, so renowned throughout the world. They that are carnal cannot do those things which are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual the things which are carnal; even as faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. But even those things which ye do according to the flesh are spiritual; for ye do all things in Jesus Christ. Let not then any one deceive you, as indeed ye are not deceived; for ye are wholly devoted to God. For when there is no evil desire within you, which might defile and torment you, then do ye live in accordance with the will of God, and are [the servants] of Christ. Cast ye out that which defiles you, who are of the most holy Church of the Ephesians, which is so famous and celebrated throughout the world. They that are carnal cannot do those things which are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual the things which are carnal; even as faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. But ye, being full of the Holy Spirit, do nothing according to the flesh, but all things according to the Spirit. Ye are complete in Christ Jesus, “who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.” …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter VIII)

Source: https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-longer.html

Or

“… Chapter III.-Avoid Schismatics.  Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].  Keep yourselves, then, from those evil planes which Jesus Christ does not tend, but that wild beast, the destroyer of men, because they are not the planting of the Father, but the seed of the wicked one. Not that I have found any division among you do I write these things; but I arm you beforehand, as the children of God. For as many as are of Christ are also with the bishop; but as many as fall away from him, and embrace communion with the accursed, these shall be cut off along with them. For they are not Christ’s husbandry, but the seed of the enemy, from whom may you ever be delivered by the prayers of the shepherd, that most faithful and gentle shepherd who presides over you. I therefore exhort you in the Lord to receive with all tenderness those that repent and return to the unity of the Church, that through your kindness and forbearance they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, and becoming worthy of Jesus Christ, may obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of Christ. Brethren, be not deceived. If any man follows him that separates from the truth, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God; and if any man does not stand aloof from the preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hell. For it is obligatory neither to separate from the godly, nor to associate with the ungodly. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he is not of Christ, nor a partaker of His passion; but is a fox, a destroyer of the vineyard of Christ. Have no fellowship with such a man, lest ye perish along with him, even should he be thy father, thy son, thy brother, or a member of thy family. For says [the Scripture], “Thine eye shall not spare him.” You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.” I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God; ” but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND, and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4] Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust; ” of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:44 – 48…” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, Epistle to the Philadelphians, Chapter III)
Source: https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-longer.html

 

Comment: Please notice how HARSHLY quotes some of these heretics and unbelievers in his quotes here for example in the most recent one as “… Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father …” and “… preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hellnor to associate with the ungodly  … a strange opinion, he is not of Christnor a partaker of His passion; but is a fox, a destroyer of the vineyard of ChristHave no fellowship with such a man, lest ye perish along with him, even should he be thy father, thy son, thy brother, or a member of thy family ….” referring to “…  that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them,  …” but then these SAME ONES St. Ignatius writes about then in conclusion above that since “… For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND …” so He may “… and “WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED…” toward even the “… evil and on the good …” and “… just and on the unjust …” for the SOLE REASON of “… kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators …” which is POSSIBLE to mean UNIVERSALISM eventually in some type of NON ELECT SALVATION if God Wills it though details NOT elaborated as to “how” in these quotes even but say the Apocalypse of Peter has may be able to explain the “how” part if this can be inferred from these quotes even (please see Pages 1950 to 1965). Difficult to say either way, right? This is ‘what I meant as though some harshest words are there but yet what is the need to tie it up to ALL MEN TO BE SAVED in CONTEXT of “Mankind” (includes evil and Good) here as “… For our God is a LOVER OF MANKIND …” is quoted here.

Please consider St. Ignatius’ other quote below in the CONTEXT of “REPENTANCE” as follows to see this “difficulty” further from the “short writing” which even the Roman Catholic Source recognizes:

 

“… Chapter 10. Exhortations to prayer, humility, etc

And pray without ceasing on behalf of other men. For there is in them hope of repentance that they may attain to God. See, then, that they be instructed by your works, if in no other way. Be meek in response to their wrath, humble in opposition to their boasting: to their blasphemies return your prayers; in contrast to their error, be stedfast Colossians 1:23 in the faith; and for their cruelty, manifest your gentleness. While we take care not to imitate their conduct, let us be found their brethren in all true kindness; and let us seek to be followers of the Lord (who ever more unjustly treated, more destitute, more condemned?), that so no plant of the devil may be found in you, but you may remain in all holiness and sobriety in Jesus Christ, both with respect to the flesh and spirit. …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 10)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm

Or

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-roberts.html

 

Comments:

 

  1. “… And pray without ceasing on behalf of other men …” refers to NON CHRISTIANS only

 

  1. The phrase “… For there is in them hope of repentance that they may attain to God. …” can refer to perhaps some of them repenting and becoming Christians now and/or maybe repentance toward a NON ELECT SALVATION type as say the SHEPHERD of HERMAS Writing Contrasts CLEARLY TWO TYPES OF REPENTANCE to be which is discussed in Pages 2248 to 2250 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook (with some new details updated there).

 

iii. The phrase “… See, then, that they be instructed by your works, if in no other way.  …” can be a reason also why to TEACH NON-CHRISTIANS to do the CHARITY DOCTRINE COMMAND, toward Christians and be holy, can you “see” it?

Did St. Polycarp Know, Imply or Teach NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBLY in some way?

 

St. Polycarp is one of the most accepted Church Father, example quote:

 

“… Irenaeus, who as a young man had heard Polycarp preach, described him as[24] “a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics“. Polycarp lived in an age after the deaths of the apostles, when a variety of interpretations of the sayings of Jesus were being preached. His role was to authenticate orthodox teachings through his connection with the apostle John: “a high value was attached to the witness Polycarp could give as to the genuine tradition of old apostolic doctrine”[3] “his testimony condemning as offensive novelties the figments of the heretical teachers”. Irenaeus states (iii. 3) that on Polycarp’s visit to Rome, his testimony converted many disciples of Marcion and Valentinus.  …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp

 

“…  STAND FAST, therefore, in these things, and FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD, being firm and UNCHANGEABLE IN THE FAITH, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]” Be all of you subject one to another? having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,” that YE MAY BOTH RECEIVE PRAISE FOR YOUR GOOD WORKS, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But WOE TO HIM by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among you, because he so little understands the place that was given him [in the Church]. I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. “Abstain from every form of evil.” For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others ? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen. But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord ?Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world ?” as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul laboured, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle. For he boasts of you in all those Churches which alone then knew the Lord; but we [of Smyrna] had not yet known Him. I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! And be ye then moderate in regard to this matter, and “do not count such as enemies,” but call them back as suffering and straying members, that ye may save your whole body. For by so acting ye shall edify yourselves.  …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, Consecutive Chapters CHAPTER X.–EXHORTATION TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE, CHAPTER XI.–EXPRESSION OF GRIEF ON ACCOUNT OF VALENS, though original writing did NOT come with Chapter Divisions linking these two, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

 

Comment: Even John Calvin’s (CALVINISM) REFORMED Churches struggle with this particular history regarding St. Polycarp’s quotes here because it challenges (or disproves) two assumptions of TULIP namely “no such thing as Unconditional Election” and “no denying of Free Will Doctrine to do ALMSGIVING or CHARITY DOCTRINE with CHURCH MONEYwithout which a CHURCH PASTOR (Presbyter) like VALENS described here becomes “UNSAVED” in the CONTEXT of ELECT SALVATION (as discussed in link below too where you can see the “other side of the coin” too and compare and see which is “more likely”):

 

https://reformedforhisglory.wordpress.com/2014/06/08/the-love-of-money-and-the-sin-of-valens-in-polycarps-epistle-to-the-philippians/

Note: Even the “Reformed Group” example in link above did NOT deny the Authenticity of this Letter by St. Polycarp. Perhaps they might if they see that these quotes undermine their theology, right? (human nature, isn’t it? That’s why we still consider it as “possibilities” and to be SAFE SCRIPTURALLY, we TEACH the CHARITY DOCTRINE likewise)

In light of this, do YOU THINK that PROSPERITY PASTORS or PROSPERITY CHURCHES ARE SAVED with ELECT SALVATION? Compare:

 

“… no such thing as Unconditional Election  …” = for if there was UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (as CALVINISM claims), the CHURCH PASTOR (Presbyter) like VALENS described here cannot become “UNSAVED” especially since despite any cover-up attempts by the Reformed Group article earlier (claiming “heavier sins like adultery etc but NOT WRITTEN here at all.”) the letter here by St. Polycarp DOES NOT mention ANY 10 COMMANDMENT to be BROKEN and CLEARLY Reveals the ONE AND ONLY SIN done by PASTOR VALENS (and his wife) namely COVETEOUSNESS (Love of Money/Prosperity) without DOING ALMSGIVING in CONTRAST as these phrases prove clearly:

 

“… without DOING ALMSGIVING in CONTRAST …” =  “… When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]”Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp

“… ONE AND ONLY SIN done by PASTOR VALENS (and his wife) namely COVETEOUSNESS (Love of Money/Prosperity) …” = “… I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among you, because he so little understands the place that was given him [in the Church]. I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. “Abstain from every form of evil.” For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others ? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen. …” – Blessed St. Polycarp

 

“… CHURCH PASTOR (Presbyter) like VALENS described here becomes “UNSAVED” in the CONTEXT of ELECT SALVATION  …” = “… I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! And be ye then moderate in regard to this matter, and “do not count such as enemies,” but call them back as suffering and straying members, that ye may save your whole body.  …” – Blessed St. Polycarp

 

CLEAREST CONTEXT for CONDITIONAL ELECTION is this phrase here = “… “do not count such as enemies,” but call them back as suffering and straying members, that ye may save your whole body.  …” – Blessed St. Polycarp

 

Because: “… straying members … save your whole body …” referring to both “… PASTOR VALENS (and his wife)  …” means they were part of the CHURCH BODY but now are NO MORE because they need the CONDITION OF TRUE REPENTANCE , hence CONDITIONAL ELECTION only Taught here by this phrase “… for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! …”  where the REPENTANCE here refers to DOING the CHARITY DOCTRINE to ANNUL this COVETEOUSNESS (even where no 10 Commandments were broken) by phrase “… because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]”   …”

 

I repeat, Did St. Polycarp Know, Imply or Teach NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBLY in some way here? Please consider:

 

“… I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! …” = This FALLEN PASTOR and his WIFE are NOT without repentance but may have some of it as that’s why calls him to have “true repentance

 

 

“… whom may the Lord grant true repentance! …”= is there another type of repentance? can refer to perhaps some of them repenting and becoming Christians now and/or maybe repentance toward a NON ELECT SALVATION type as say the SHEPHERD of HERMAS Writing Contrasts CLEARLY TWO TYPES OF REPENTANCE to be which is discussed in Pages 2248 to 2250 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook (with some new details updated there).

 

“… And be ye then moderate in regard to this matter, and “do not count such as enemies,” but call them back as suffering and straying members, that ye may save your whole body. …”  = St. Polycarp does NOT seem to see this FALLEN PASTOR VALENS and his WIFE as completely a HERETIC at all but sees him somewhere in between as a “heathen”:

 

“… If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen. But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord ?Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world ?” as Paul teaches …”  – Blessed St. Polycarp  = Could this “judgment as one of the heathen even being defiled with idolatry context here” mean that they can get a chance at most to be saved on that FINAL NEW EARTH if GOD DECIDES to SHOW MERCY as described say ion Pages 2347 and 2348 earlier? = NON ELECT SALVATION (if this interpretation is true)

 

St. Polycarp does NOT seem to see this FALLEN PASTOR VALENS and his WIFE as completely a HERETIC at all where in Contrast St. Irenaeous of Lyons records this encounter where calls this next person not just a HERETIC but also as “…the firstborn of Satan …” which in contrast could refer to the COMPLETELY DAMNED, example quote:

 

“… In contrast to the typical Gnostic claim to a SPECIAL REVELATORY gnosis, MARCION and his followers emphasized faith in the effect of Christ’s act. They practiced stern asceticism to restrict contact with the creator’s world while looking forward to eventual salvation in the realm of the extra-worldly God. They admitted WOMEN to the PRIESTHOOD and BISHOPRIC. The Marcionites were considered the most dangerous of the Gnostics by the established church. When Polycarp met Marcion at Rome he is said to have identified Marcion as “the firstborn of Satan.”  …”

 

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Marcionites

 

Difficult to say either way, right? Recap: “Possibility” because, as you can see that it’s “not” easy to ascertain either way 100% (at least not for me).

 

Regarding “women priests (or woman pastors)” whom only MARCION was the first known heretic by name to allow it, it doesn’t mean that he is a nice person. Can you “see” it in quote earlier? Please notice that MARCION was a HOLY-HERETIC in a way because they “… practiced stern asceticism …” but yet St. Polycarp calls him “… the firstborn of Satan …” as recorded by his hearer St. Irenaeous himself.

 

Yes, MARCION himself was successful because imagine a “woman” who would “prefer the one allowing her into becoming a pastor” than a “Christianity which does NOT allow it, right?” so that’s one of the reason how MARCION got good support but “not” all women can be seduced in this way. Here is CHURCH HISTORY quotes proving that NO WOMEN PASTORS were allowed OVER MEN as per Bible Verses which even Blessed Martin Luther the First Protestant agreed (shown in Pages 1805 to 1808s of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook) where personally, to be SAFE SCRIPTURALLY I DON’T SUPPORT it but I still talk or be friends with those who have women pastors even but I do NOT submit to it at all, to quote (where please note especially St. Irenaeous’ quote later in which he specifically targets this ‘same heretic Marcion (or Marcus)’ for this Context too):

 

“…  Can women be ordained to the priesthood? This is a question that provokes much debate in our modern world, but it is one to which the Church has always answered “No.” The basis for the Church’s teaching on ordination is found in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the Church Fathers.

 

While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:1–16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:11–14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:34–38).

 

The following quotations from the Church Fathers indicate that women do play an active role in the Church and that in the age of the Fathers there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but that these women were not ordained.

 

The Fathers rejected women’s ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. This teaching has not changed.

 

Further, in 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, “Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful” (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

 

And in 1995 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching “requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25:2)” (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).

 

The following quotations from the Fathers constitute a part of the tradition on which this infallible teaching rests.

 

Irenaeus

Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

 

“When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’

 

“Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him” (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

“It is of no concern how diverse be their [the heretics’] views, so long as they conspire to erase the one truth. They are puffed up; all offer knowledge. Before they have finished as catechumens, how thoroughly learned they are! And the heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures . . . ” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 41:4–5 [A.D. 200]).

 

“It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [1 Cor 14:34–35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office” (The Veiling of Virgins 9 [A.D. 206]).

 

Hippolytus

“When a widow is to be appointed, she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named [a widow]. . . . A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with the other widows. Hands are not imposed on her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the liturgy. Ordination is for the clergy because of the liturgy; but a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all” (The Apostolic Tradition 11 [A.D. 215]).

 

The Didascalia

“For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us” (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).

 

Firmilian

“[T]here suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist” (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).

 

 

Council of Nicaea I

“Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity” (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

 

Council of Laodicea

“[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church” (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).

 

Epiphanius of Salamis

“Certain women there in Arabia [the Collyridians] . . . In an unlawful and basphemous ceremony . . . ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit” (Against Heresies 78:13 [A.D. 377]).

 

“It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess” (ibid.).

 

“From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses” (ibid.).

 

“If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good” (ibid., 79:3).

 

 

John Chrysostom

“[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature” (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).

 

The Apostolic Constitutions

“A virgin is not ordained, for we have no such command from the Lord, for this is a state of voluntary trial, not for the reproach of marriage, but on account of leisure for piety” (Apostolic Constitutions 8:24 [A.D. 400]). “Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them” (ibid., 3:16).

 

“[T]he ‘man is the head of the woman’ [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, ‘He shall rule over you’ [Gen. 3:16]. . . . But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ” (ibid., 3:9). “A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women” (ibid., 8:28).

 

Augustine

“[The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman” (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]). …”

 

Source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/women-and-the-priesthood

 

In response to the possibility in Page 2362 earlier regarding did St. Polycarp Know, Imply or Teach NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBLY in some way? Since St. Irenaeous was a hearer of this SAME St. POLYCARP, so perhaps the way St. Irenaeous looks as HERETICS below could hint to a Non Elect Salvation hope for some heretics who are rejected due to UNBELIEF here:

“…  1. The rule of truth which we hold, is, that there is one God Almighty, who made all things by His Word, and fashioned and formed, out of that which had no existence, all things which exist. … ,-He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we shall prove. Holding, therefore, this rule, we shall easily show, notwithstanding the great variety and multitude of their opinions, that these men have deviated from the truth; for almost all the different sects of heretics admit that there is one God; but then, by their pernicious doctrines, they change [this truth into error], even as the Gentiles do through idolatry,-thus proving themselves ungrateful to Him that created them. Moreover, they despise the workmanship of God, speaking against their own salvation, becoming their own bitterest accusers, and being false witnesses [against themselves]. Yet, reluctant as they may be, these men shall one day rise again in the flesh, to confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead; but they shall not be numbered among the righteous on account of their unbelief. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 22))

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103122.htm

 

Does this phrase imply a POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION where “… Yet, reluctant as they may be, these men [HERETICS equivalent to IDOLATERS in quote prior] shall one day rise again in the flesh, to confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead; but they shall not be numbered among the righteous on account of their unbelief. …” in the sense that AFTER THEY CONFESS HIM (they could be saved perhaps?) where the phrase “… not be numbered among the righteous …” seem to point more positively to “being saved” but not in Heaven type (as that’s where the righteous dwells) so perhaps on that FINAL NEW EARTH only but never entering through the GATES into  HEAVEN? Maybe? Because St. Irenaeous quote for the absolutely damned is usually stronger and he would have used those phrases like “into the fire or death or equivalent” as in contrast the quote here seems a “little hopeful” perhaps under the single condition that these HERETICS “… confess the power of Him who raises them from the dead …” which could mean a “believing after seeing possibility” condition, right? I cannot say 100% and am neutral about it.

 

 

St. Justin Martyr seems to have a broader definition of  what it means to be a “Christian”:

 

“… Chapter 5. Why, then, should this be? In our case, who pledge ourselves to do no wickedness, nor to hold these atheistic opinions, you do not examine the charges made against us; but, yielding to unreasoning passion, and to the instigation of evil demons, you punish us without consideration or judgment. For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself. And when Socrates endeavoured, by true reason and examination, to bring these things to light, and deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, by means of men who rejoiced in iniquity, compassed his death, as an atheist and a profane person, on the charge that he was introducing new divinities; and in our case they display a similar activity. For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.  Chapter 46.  But lest some should, without reason, and for the perversion of what we teach, maintain that we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius, and subsequently, in the time of Pontius Pilate, taught what we say He taught; and should cry out against us as though all men who were born before Him were irresponsible — let us anticipate and solve the difficulty. We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious. So that even they who lived before Christ, and lived without reason, were wicked and hostile to Christ, and slew those who lived reasonably. But who, through the power of the Word, according to the will of God the Father and Lord of all, He was born of a virgin as a man, and was named Jesus, and was crucified, and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, an intelligent man will be able to comprehend from what has been already so largely said.  …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church  (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, The First Apology, Chapter 5, Chapter 46 ) Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

St. Justin Martyr seems to have a broader definition of  what it means to be a “Christian”:

Highlighted from above is:

 

“… For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious. So that even they who lived before Christ, and lived without reason, were wicked and hostile to Christ, and slew those who lived reasonably..  …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

I know that many Christian scholars point the above as a “special case” for “those who never heard the Gospel before Christ’s First Advent”. However, special case or not, it proves that CHRIST’S RANSOM can APPLY in the SPIRIT WORLD or JUDGMENT DAY SALVATION  as these MUST be SAVED in that way (no time space limits). Apart from that, please consider the following phrases from above carefully too:

 

“… So that even they who lived before Christ …” =  The word “even” can indicate also that it applies now too but also in the past or only in the past, which is it?

 

“… He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists …” = The Condition to be called “Christians” is to “… live reasonably …” based on Relative Measure of Word of God Revealed to them.

 

To TRY to see more accurately whether St. Justin meant the above only for the time before Christ as a special case or even now, let’s look at his “other quote” in his own words below:

 

“… Chapter 10. Our doctrines, then, appear to be greater than all human teaching; because Christ, who appeared for our sakes, became the whole rational being, both body, and reason, and soul. For whatever either lawgivers or philosophers uttered well, they elaborated by finding and contemplating some part of the Word. But since they did not know the whole of the Word, which is Christ, they often contradicted themselves. And those who by human birth were more ancient than Christ, when they attempted to consider and prove things by reason, were brought before the tribunals as impious persons and busybodies. And Socrates, who was more zealous in this direction than all of them, was accused of the very same crimes as ourselves. For they said that he was introducing new divinities, and did not consider those to be gods whom the state recognised. But he cast out from the state both Homer and the rest of the poets, and taught men to reject the wicked demons and those who did the things which the poets related; and he exhorted them to become acquainted with the God who was to them unknown, by means of the investigation of reason, saying, That it is neither easy to find the Father and Maker of all, nor, having found Him, is it safe to declare Him to all. But these things our Christ did through His own power. For no one trusted in Socrates so as to die for this doctrine, but in Christ, who was partially known even by Socrates (for He was and is the Word who is in every man, and who foretold the things that were to come to pass both through the prophets and in His own person when He was made of like passions, and taught these things), not only philosophers and scholars believed, but also artisans and people entirely uneducated, despising both glory, and fear, and death; since He is a power of the ineffable Father, not the mere instrument of human reason.  …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church  (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, The Second Apology, Chapter 10 )

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm

Please notice these parts carefully:

 

“… but in Christ, who was partially known even by Socrates (for He was … the Word …every man, …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr = refers to the PAST TIMES CASES BEFORE CHRIST’S ADVENT in the FLESH

 

“… but in Christ, who was partially known even by Socrates (for He … is the Word who is in every man, …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr = refers to the SUCH CASES in TIMES NOW too POSSIBLY even AFTER CHRIST’S ADVENT in the FLESH

 

“… but in Christ, who was partially known even by Socrates (for He was and is the Word who is in every man, …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr = refers to the SUCH CASES BOTH in PAST TIMES BEFORE and NOW too POSSIBLY even AFTER CHRIST’S ADVENT in the FLESH

 

“…Christ who was  partially known even by Socratesin every man …”= in every human being created by Relative measure so Judgment based on this in Romans 2?

[To quote from Pages 2098 and 2099 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

  1. The phrase “… as many as have SINNED IN THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW 13(for NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED; …” (Romans 2:12 – 13) = Those who have heard of the LAW/GOSPEL are likewise JUDGED based on what they have heard and if they DO THE LAW/GOSPEL Commands, they have a ‘possibility’ to be JUSTIFIED as Verse 7 here gives the “Context for Justification” as obtaining “Eternal Life” namely, “… ETERNAL LIFE to those who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD SEEK FOR GLORY, HONOR and IMMORTALITY …” (Romans 2:7) where Verse 6 says this is based on “their deeds/works/lifestyle lived prior” as it reads “…6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: …”(Romans 2:6)

 

Can you see it?

 

“… 6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 ETERNAL LIFE to those who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD SEEK FOR GLORY, HONOR and IMMORTALITY;  … 10but glory, honor, and peace to EVERYONE WHO WORKS WHAT IS GOOD, TO THE JEW FIRST AND ALSO TO THE GREEK [Gentiles]. 11For there is NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD. …12 and as many as have SINNED IN THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW 13(for NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST IN THE SIGHT OF GOD,  BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED …” (Romans 2:6, 7, 10, 11,12, 13 NKJV)

The “… DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED …” Context for Romans 2:13 here seems to be “…6who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 ETERNAL LIFE to those who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD SEEK FOR GLORY, HONOR and IMMORTALITY …” (Romans 2:7) which clearly refers to SOME being SAVED on JUDGMENT DAY only which by CHILIASM TIMELINE CANNOT be CHRISTIANS and SO MUST BE some NON-CHRISTIANS, right?

 

As it continues in the above as “… 10but glory, honor, and peace to EVERYONE WHO WORKS WHAT IS GOOD, TO THE JEW FIRST AND ALSO TO THE GREEK [Gentiles]. 11For there is NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD. …” (indicating Universality without Partiality Judgment based on “works” before MERCY is DECIDED to be SHOWN BY GOD’S DECISION ALONE) including even of THOSE WHO HEARD the LAW (GOSPEL) too CONTEXT as the phrases for these in the above are “… and as many as have SINNED IN THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW 13(for NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST IN THE SIGHT OF GOD,  BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED …”.

So, it’s POSSIBLE, right?

 

iii. Where is the Threshold for Justification? Let God Decide since even “Christians” with terrible sins may be “saved without reward too” if they likewise have some type of ‘minimum obedience likewise’ as the ‘saved by fire case’ described in Verse below could apply likewise to either Christians or those Generally above simply because as Verse 11 here Reveals that there is NO partiality with God:

 

“… 14If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15If anyone’s WORK IS BURNED, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; but HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE.  …” (1 Corinthians 3:14 – 15, NKJV)

 

So these “Christians” with “imperfect knowledge by Relative measure” = a type of NON ELECT SALVATION I think maybe on the Final New Earth for some at least?

 

Please notice that even in the Old Covenant, the “Gentiles (Aliens/Foreigners)” can convert and become a “Proselyte” in “Judaism”* meaning this option was available even for Socrates (as St. Justin’s quote earlier rings that Socrates  was that type of a “Christianeven with “limited knowledge”; please notice the name Socrates carefully below):

 

NON ELECT SALVATION possibility = “… We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

CONDEMNED NON-CHRISTIANS are those who were HOSTILE to CHRISTIANS/CHRIST = “… and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious. So that even they who lived before Christ, and lived without reason, were wicked and hostile to Christ, and slew those who lived reasonably..  …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

This means it is likely that St. Justin is talking about NON ELECT SALVATION (only term is not coined).

 

I call the above as “NON ELECT SALVATION possibility” because SOCRATES could have converted into JUDAISM (please see quote and Bible Verses later) which was possible in the OLD TESTAMENT itself (in which case he may have merited an ELECT SALVATION) but SOCRATES DID NOT and so a similar chance can be available to NON CHRISTIANS now likewise too (IF GOD WILLS it) where the by “not” converting now into Christianity such NON CHRISTIANS could be ones who ONLY PARTIALLY OBEY SOME COMMANDS of CHRIST where St. Justin pointed to Socrates to be an example of such a one with “limited knowledge” allowed from this quote of his earlier on Page 2371 which seems to apply even now too “… but in Christ, who was partially known even by Socrates (for He was and is the Word who is in every man …” in St. Justin’s words here  (detailed in Page 2371 prior).

 

*Example Bible Verses for  SOCRATES could have converted into JUDAISM and become a “Proselyte” in “Judaism” even till Christ’s Time but SOCRATES DID NOT  part:

 

“…10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11Cretans and [d]Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”  …” (Acts 2:10 – 11, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/acts/2-10.htm

 

“… Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. …” (Acts 13:43, NKJV) Source: https://biblehub.com/acts/13-43.htm

 

Example Jewish quote even for such NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY as we can view the “share in the world to come” as referring to maybe SAVED AT MOST on the FINAL NEW EARTH but NOT inherit HEAVEN type of SALVATION (which requires believing on earth)?

 

“… In Judaism

There are two kinds of proselytes in Rabbinic Judaism: ger tzedek (righteous proselytes, proselytes of righteousness, religious proselyte, devout proselyte) and ger toshav (resident proselyte, proselytes of the gate, limited proselyte, half-proselyte).

 

A “righteous proselyte” is a gentile who has converted to Judaism, is bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish religion, and is considered a full member of the Jewish people. The proselyte is circumcised as an adult (milah l’shem giur), if male, and immerses in a mikvah to formally effect the conversion.

 

A “gate proselyte”[12] is a resident alien who lives in the Land of Israel and follows some of the Jewish customs.[10] They are not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the whole of the Torah. They are bound only to conform to the Seven Laws of Noah[10] (do not worship idols, do not blaspheme God’s name, do not murder, do not commit fornication (immoral sexual acts), do not steal, do not tear the limb from a living animal, and do not fail to establish rule of law) to be assured of a place in the world to come. …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselyte

I mean adapting that Jewish Knowledge of Righteous above which described “two classes of people”, we can match our definition on Page 2092 earlier by changing the word “Judaism” into “Christianity” to adapt it to the “New Testament” as follows:

 

  1. i) Elect Salvation = Christians = His Bride Saved to Inherit the Heavens with Gradations of Thirty, Sixty and Hundredfold among them where they inherit all things but have ‘specific difference in rewards too‘ with Celestial (“Heavenly”) Final Resurrection Body sharing ONE FLESH with CHRIST in some way to inherit its Glory = “… A “righteous proselyte” is a gentile who has converted to Christianity, is bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Christian religion, and is considered a full member of the Christian people.. …”

 

  1. ii) Non Elect Salvation Possibility = NOT Christ’s Bride = NOT Christians so they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth with gradation and rewards among them too with Final Earthly (“Terrestrial”) Resurrection Body glory only = “… A “gate proselyte”[12] is a resident alien who lives in the Land of Israel and follows some of the Christian customs.[10] They are not required to comply with the whole of the New Testament. They are bound only to conform to the Seven Laws of Noah[10] (do not worship idols, do not blaspheme God’s name, do not murder, do not commit fornication (immoral sexual acts), do not steal, do not tear the limb from a living animal, and do not fail to establish rule of law) to be assured of a place in the world to come….”

 

I am “not” saying it is so but is POSSIBLE, right?

 

(Please also check out the related BOOK of 1ENOCH quotes for FIRST CHRISTIAN JEWISH PERSPECTIVE too which may echo such a way as discussed in Pages 2103 to 2106 prior).

 

 

Example “Orthodox” quote in support of my ‘possibility claim’ above:

[To quote from Pages 1027 and 1108 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

“… According to the TEACHING of the ORTHODOX CHURCH, ALL THE DEAD, whether believers or non-believers, appear before God. Therefore, even for THOSE WHO DID NOT BELIEVE DURING THEIR LIFETIME, there is HOPE THAT THEY WILL RECOGNIZE GOD AS THEIR SAVIOR AND REDEEMER IF THEIR PREVIOUS LIFE ON EARTH LED them to this RECOGNITION …” – ArchBishop Hilarion Alfeyev

Source (Page 10):

https://stjamesorthodox.org/files/articles/Bishop-Hilarion—Christ-the-Conqueror-of-Hades.pdf

 

[To quote from Pages 2096 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

“… Also, by this which this servant dared to say, “Thou reapest where thou sowedst not,” [Matthew 25:26] we understand that the Lord accepts the good life of the Gentiles and of the Philosophers. …” –  Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD)

Source [ Patristic Bible Commentary, Catena Aurea, Matthew 25:14 – 30, P. 853 ]:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/matthew-commentary/catena-aurea-on-matthew/chapter-1/chapter-2/chapter-3/chapter-4/chapter-5/chapter-6/chapter-7/chapter-8/chapter-9/chapter-10/chapter-11/chapter-12/chapter-13/chapter-14/chapter-15/chapter-16/chapter-17/chapter-18/chapter-19/chapter-20/chapter-21/chapter-22/chapter-23/chapter-24/chapter-25

The above is not the opinion of that Servant but also that is affirmed by the Lord in that “He Reaps where He has not Sowed too” where Sowing may refer to the “Sowing of the Gospel Seed” in Verse below:

“… But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. …” (Matthew 25:26, NKJV)

Whether this refers to only the case where people never heard the Gospel or also for those who did NOT receive the Gospel (i.e. Gospel seed is “not” sown), it shows that GOD CAN SAVE in the SPIRIT WORLD/JUDGMENT DAY beyond this life too and let God Decide if HE EXTENDS this ‘same way ’to BOTH cases above or either only as a NON ELECT SALVATION.

 

St. Irenaeous of Lyons affirmed St. Justin Martyr as a faithful witness to the same Doctrine

 

“… In his book against Marcion, JUSTIN DOES WELL SAY: “I would not have believed the Lord Himself, if He had announced any other than He who is our framer, maker, and nourisher. But because the only-begotten Son came to us from the one God, who both made this world and formed us, and contains and administers all things, summing up His own handiwork in Himself, my faith towards Him is steadfast, and my love to the Father immoveable, God bestowing both upon us.” …”  – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 4, Chapter VI, Point 2)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html

 

How reliable is St. Justin Martyr? Example of another First Christianity quote:

 

St. Methodius quoting St. Justin regarding this “Resurrection Context” is clearly recorded by Christian historian St. Photius:

 

” … And JUSTIN of Neapolis, a man who was NOT FAR SEPARATED  FROM THE APOSTLES either in AGE or EXCELLENCE, says that that which is MORTAL is INHERITED, but that which is IMMORTAL INHERITS; and that the FLESH INDEED DIES, but the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN LIVES. …” — From METHODIUS On the Resurrection, in Photius. (Fragment V, St. Justin Martyr’s Lost Writings)

Roman Catholic Sourcehttps://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0132.htm

 

Note: Justin of Neapolis = Blessed St. Justin Martyr

 

METHODIUS who quotes St. Justin here is the same one [for example please see his quotes in Page 600 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook] as Blessed St. Methodius of Olympus, bishop in Lycia. Little is known of his life. He was apparently put to death in the Diocletianic persecution. Only a small part of his extensive writing survives. The ‘Symposium [Banquet], or On Chastity’, also known as the ‘Banquet of the Ten Virgins’, extols virginity. In a treatise on the Resurrection, he took issue with Origen and upheld the identity of the resurrection body with that worn in this life. His work on Free Will is a defence of human liberty against the fatalism of the Gnostics (died c. 311 AD)

So if St. Justin’s quotes in Page 2371 can be interpreted in the way that is shown, then St. Irenaeous’ quote below too can mean in the same way implying that a NON ELECT SALVATION for NON-CHRISTIANS can be possible likewise if GOD WILLS it:

 

“… 1. Now in the last days, when the fullness of the time of liberty had arrived, the Word Himself did by Himself wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, Isaiah 4:4 when He washed the disciples’ feet with His own hands. John 13:5 For this is the end of the human race inheriting God; that as in the beginning, by means of our first [parents], we were all brought into bondage, by being made subject to death; so at last, by means of the New Man, all who from the beginning [were His] disciples, having been cleansed and washed from things pertaining to death, should come to the life of God. For He who washed the feet of the disciples sanctified the entire body, and rendered it clean. For this reason, too, He administered food to them in a recumbent posture, indicating that those who were lying in the earth were they to whom He came to impart life. As Jeremiah declares, The holy Lord remembered His dead Israel, who slept in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them to make known to them His salvation, that they might be saved. For this reason also were the eyes of the disciples weighed down when Christ’s passion was approaching; and when, in the first instance, the Lord found them sleeping, He let it pass — thus indicating the patience of God in regard to the state of slumber in which men lay; but coming the second time, He aroused them, and made them stand up, in token that His passion is the arousing of His sleeping disciples, on whose account He also descended into the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9 to behold with His eyes the state of those who were resting from their labours, in reference to whom He did also declare to the disciples: Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17

  1. For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Cæsar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive, but for all men altogether, who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom. For it is truly one God who directed the patriarchs towards His dispensations, and has justified the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:30 For as in the first we were prefigured, so, on the other hand, are they represented in us, that is, in the Church, and receive the recompense for those things which they accomplished. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 22))

Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103422.htm

Comments:

 

  1. This Mystery of Christ which “… Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17 …” is as follows:

 

“… on whose account He also descended into the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9 to behold with His eyes the state of those who were resting from their labours, in reference to whom He did also declare to the disciples: Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17 …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

  1. Another Mystery of Christ which “… Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17 …” is as follows:

 

“… Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17  2. For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Cæsar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive, but for all men altogether, who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom.  …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

 

iii.  St. Irenaeous’ quote can imply NON ELECT SALVATION for NON-CHRISTIANS to be possible likewise if GOD WILLS it for those of the past = “… who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote can imply NON ELECT SALVATION for NON-CHRISTIANS to be possible likewise if GOD WILLS it for those of the present = “… For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Cæsar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote can imply NON ELECT SALVATION for NON-CHRISTIANS to be possible likewise if GOD WILLS it for those of the future = “… but for all men altogether, …, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom.…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous

 

In short, time reference words here can be compared as follows:

 

past = “… who from the beginning, For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Cæsar that Christ came …”

 

present = “…, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive …”

 

future = “… but for all men altogether,…”

 

Relative Measure” aspect of “Knowing or Believing in God” in some way for NON ELECT SALVATION type POSSIBILITY = “… according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God … and give them a place in His kingdom.…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous

 

Relative Measure” aspect of “HOLINESS (“piety”) + CHARITY DOCTRINE(justice) aspect is “Practiced” in some way for NON ELECT SALVATION type POSSIBILITY = “… according to their capacity, … , and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, …, and give them a place in His kingdom.…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous

 

Details for “HOLINESS (“piety”) + CHARITY DOCTRINE(justice) aspect DEFINITION is SCRIPTURE and with St. Irenaeous’ other quote can be seen around Page 2330 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

 

Relative Measure” aspect of “BELIEVING AFTER SEEING POSSIBILITY= “… but for all men altogether, …, according to their capacity, … and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. … and give them a place in His kingdom.…” – Blessed St. Irenaeous

 

Please compare with another St. Irenaeous’ own quote below which can mean this likewise [to quote from Page 2338 to 2339 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook with source and more related details there] where St. Irenaeous quote seems to point to GOD’s JUDGMENT for UNBELIEF ONLY after the BELIEVING AFTER SEEING POSSIBILITY as per his quotes earlier highlighted as follows:

 

“… by making His Word visible to all; and, conversely, the Word has declared to all the Father and the Son, since He has become visible to all. ” = THE WORD refers to VISIBLE MANIFESTATION (so as IN FLESH) so the SON (with whom the FATHER is also known)

 

“… And therefore the righteous judgment of God [shall fall] upon all who, like others, have seen, but have not, like others, believed. …” = CONDEMNATION only seems to be pointed if all get the equal chance as per the literal “believing after seeing chance” of CHRIST VISIBLY as the quote here seems to refer to Bible Verses below (as “others” who rejected that TYPE of SEEING CHRIST in FLESH but STILL NOT BELIEVING were the “JEWS”):

 

“… 35And JESUS said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall NEVER THIRST. 36But I said to you that YOU HAVE SEEN ME and YET DO NOT BELIEVE. 37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39This is the WILL OF THE FATHER who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP at the LAST DAY. 40And this is THE WILL OF HIM who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE; and I will RAISE HIM UP at the LAST DAY.” …” (John 6:35 – 40, NKJV)

 

Yes, believing after Seeing Context in St. Irenaeous continuing words earlier seem to point to this POSSIBILITY (Difficult to ascertain either way, right?)

 

 

 

 

If St. Ireaneous of Lyon’s quotes here can be interpreted in this way, can it also imply that the DESCENT of CHRIST into HADES “… on whose account He also descended into the lower parts of the earth,  …” (part of “… Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17  …” as he quotes this Verse while discussing these aspects) can also be in this CONTEXT of NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY FROM HADES (HELL) too since this quote in full seems to talk about both?

 

“… on whose account He also descended into the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians 4:9 to behold with His eyes the state of those who were resting from their labours, in reference to whom He did also declare to the disciples: Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see and hear what you see and hear. Matthew 13:17 2. For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Cæsar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive, but for all men altogether, who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom. For it is truly one God who directed the patriarchs towards His dispensations, and has justified the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:30 For as in the first we were prefigured, so, on the other hand, are they represented in us, that is, in the Church, and receive the recompense for those things which they accomplished. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons

To consider this “interpretation” that this NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY FROM HADES (HELL) is POSSIBLE even now, please consider these quotes [To quote from Pages 2095 and 2096 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

“… And if, like a Thomas, you were left out when the disciples were assembled to whom Christ shews Himself, when you do see Him be not faithless;4674 and if you do not believe, then believe those who tell you; and if you cannot believe them either, then have confidence in the print of the nails. If He DESCEND into HELL,4675 descend with Him. Learn to know the MYSTERIES of CHRIST THERE ALSO, what is the PROVIDENTIAL PURPOSE of the TWOFOLD DESCENT, to SAVE ALL MEN absolutely by His manifestation, OR THERE TOO ONLY THEM THAT BELIEVE ….” – Blessed St. Cyril, ArchBishop of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 313 AD – c. 386 AD, Point XXIV, Oration XLV. The Second Oration on Easter, via Philip Schaff, Page 641)

Source:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/1819-1893,_Schaff._Philip,_3_Vol_07_Cyril_Of_Jerusalem._Gregory_Nazianzen,_EN.pdf

Comment: The Word “MYSTERY” means “not every Christian will know this” while there is nothing limiting that to ‘those of the past only’ as in his sermon here as he seems to apply it to the “present” as though it is ‘still available’ at the time of Preaching” which can be PROVEN in “his own words” from another writing below:

 

“… Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves…” – Blessed St. Cyril, ArchBishop of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 313 AD – c. 386 AD, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350)).

Source: www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory/amp/

Note: The above is “Prayer for the dead” example and NOT “Prayer to the dead”.

NON ELECT SALVATION part (because some of these already DEAD or FALLEN ASLEEP ones THEY DON’T HAVE “CROWNS” and are “SINNERS”) even now in the above (highlighted):

 

“… In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves …” – Blessed St. Cyril, ArchBishop of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 313 AD – c. 386 AD)

 

 

 

 

 

This “partial knowing and obeying Christ type” that seem to be represented in some way in St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeous of Lyon’s quotes including the approved Jewish Rabbinical Tradition in some way too as described in Pages prior can also be matched with Verses below which speak of “receiving a Christian is equal to Receiving Christin some way in the Context of “Charity Doctrine” for JUDGMENT DAY (if GOD WILLS it):

[To quote from Page 2090 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

“… 31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his SHEEP from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the RIGHTEOUS WILL ANSWER Him, saying, ‘Lord, When Did We See You Hungry And Feed YOU, or THIRSTY AND GIVE YOU DRINK? 38WHEN DID WE SEE YOU A STRANGER and TAKE YOU IN, OR NAKED AND CLOTHE YOU? 39Or WHEN DID WE SEE YOU SICK, OR in PRISON, AND COME TO YOU?’ 40And THE KING WILL ANSWER and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I SAY TO YOU, INASMUCH AS YOU DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YOU DID IT TO ME.’ 41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE.”  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:31 – 46, NKJV)

 

Emphasis Mine below for this POSSIBILITY NOT DOCTRINE as I am NOT 100% SURE:

“… ‘Assuredly, I SAY TO YOU [Non Elect Salvation], INASMUCH AS YOU [Non Elect Salvation], DID IT TO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN [Elect Salvation], YOU [Non Elect Salvation], DID IT TO ME.’ …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:40, NKJV) …”

 

So since we cannot force anyone to believe, for those who do not become Christians, we encourage them strongly to DO THE CHARITY DOCTRINE especially TOWARD CHRISTIANS so that in the Worst Case Scenario at least they can appeal to GOD’S MERCY based on these VERSES on JUDGMENT DAY to do a RESPONSIBLE PREACHING.

Difficult but POSSIBLE, right?

 

[ Regarding this particular aspect of sheep of another fold, please see Pages 1780 to 1788 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook for related possibilities regarding this phrase to refer to a NON ELECT SALVATION too]

 

[To quote from Page 1651 to 1652 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

Please notice that these SHEEP have done the #CharityDoctrine toward CHRIST’S BRETHREN (or CHRISTIANS according to Matthew 12:48 – 50 in some way) where by “receiving Christians in some way, it could have been equal to receiving Christ in a lower degree” as it’s POSSIBLE based on HIS OWN WORDS below:

 

“… 46While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, HIS MOTHER AND BROTHERS, seeking to speak with Him. 47Then one said to Him, “Look, YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR BROTHERS are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “WHO IS MY MOTHER and WHO ARE MY BROTHERS?” 49And He stretched out His hand TOWARD HIS DISCIPLES and said, “HERE ARE MY MOTHER AND MY BROTHERS! 50For whoever DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven is MY BROTHER AND SISTER AND MOTHER.” …” (Matthew 12:46 – 50, NKJV)

More details around Page 625 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook too because anyone who ‘accepts a Christian’ (say even within a family or as a friend and practiced the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle toward them may be CONSIDERED as EQUIVALENT TO RECEIVING CHRIST HIMSELF, hence saved by this NON-ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY based on these next set of Verses by CHRIST HIMSELF DIRECTLY too):

 

 

“…40“He who receives you receives Me, … 41He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:40 – 42, highlighted phrases, NKJV)

 

[to quote from Page 2338 to 2339 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook with source and more related details there] where St. Irenaeous quote seems to point to NON-ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY based on CHARITY DOCTRINE done by NON CHRISTIANS toward CHRISTIANS. Comments [with Emphasis Mine]:

“… which party shall seem to have received [their worldly goods] in the fairer manner? Will it be the [Jewish] people, [who took] from the Egyptians, who were at all points their debtors; or we [Christians], [who receive property] from the Romans and other nations [NON-CHRISTIANS], who are under no similar obligation to us?  …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons  = Christians receiving the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS from some NON-CHRISTIANS

 

“… For, because He knew that we would make a good use of our substance which we should possess by receiving it from another [from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier ], He says, “He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.” And, “For I was an hungered, and ye gave Me meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink; I was naked and ye clothed Me.” And, “When thou doest thine alms [CHARITY], let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.” …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons Quoting MATTHEW 25:31 – 46 CONTEXT here = Christians ALSO DOING the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS from THE GOODS GIVEN BY some NON-CHRISTIANS via Free Will Choice likewise fulfilling GOD’s WILL.

 

“… ,-[we] who should afterwards serve God by the things of others [from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier] . For the whole exodus of the people out of Egypt, which took place under divine guidance, was a type and image of the exodus of the Church which should take place from among the Gentiles [[from NON-CHRISTIANS mentioned earlier]; …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons =  Christians are obliged to DO the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS and OTHER MINISTRY from THE GOODS GIVEN BY some NON-CHRISTIANS

 

“… and for this cause He leads it out at last from this world into His own inheritance, which Moses the servant of God did not [bestow], but which Jesus the Son of God shall give for an inheritance. And if any one will devote a dose attention to those things which are stated by the prophets with regard to the [time of the] end, and those which John the disciple of the Lord saw in the Apocalypse, he will find that the nations [are to] receive the same plagues universally, as Egypt then did particularly. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons  = Though St. Irenaeous highlights the “plagues” here for the “nations “ which DID NOT do the CHARITY DOCTRINE ACTS toward CHRISTIANS (implied most likely by Context in his quote throughout here even), so the UNMENTIONED PART of the NATIONS who ARE SAVED (Revelation 21:24 – 27 in the Apocalypse) quoted in CONTEXT of MATTHEW 25:31 – 46 here could INDIRECTLY IMPLY that SOME of the NATIONS [NON-CHRISTIANS] likewise COULD BE SAVED DUE to the FRUIT of CHARITY DOCTRINE toward CHRISTIANS (getting the ‘Believing after Seeing’ possibility)?

 

Difficult to say either way, right? Recap: “Possibility” because, as you can see that it’s “not” easy to ascertain either way 100% (at least not for me).

2) Charity Doctrine for Fruit of Eternal Life by Relative Measure

 

Recap: St. Polycarp (not me) Taught that without the CHARITY DOCTRINE whose opposite is COVETEOUSNESS (or PROSPERITY LIFESTYLE) even a PASTOR (Presbyter) and HIS WIFE were UNSAVED from the ELECT SALVATION Perspective as quoted earlier in Pages 2359 to 2362 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, (again below for highlight):

“…  STAND FAST, therefore, in these things, and FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD, being firm and UNCHANGEABLE IN THE FAITH, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When YOU CAN DO GOOD, DEFER IT NOT, because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]” Be all of you subject one to another? having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,” that YE MAY BOTH RECEIVE PRAISE FOR YOUR GOOD WORKS, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But WOE TO HIM by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among you, because he so little understands the place that was given him [in the Church]. I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. “Abstain from every form of evil.” For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others ? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen. But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord ?Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world ?” as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul laboured, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle. For he boasts of you in all those Churches which alone then knew the Lord; but we [of Smyrna] had not yet known Him. I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! And be ye then moderate in regard to this matter, and “do not count such as enemies,” but call them back as suffering and straying members, that ye may save your whole body. For by so acting ye shall edify yourselves.  …” – Blessed St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna, an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of the Blessed St. John the Apostle who wrote the Book of Revelation (c. 69 AD – c. 155 AD, Consecutive Chapters CHAPTER X.–EXHORTATION TO THE PRACTICE OF VIRTUE, CHAPTER XI.–EXPRESSION OF GRIEF ON ACCOUNT OF VALENS, though original writing did NOT come with Chapter Divisions linking these two, THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS)

Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html

 

[To quote from Pages 2327 and 2328 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]: Please notice that the OPPOSITE of COVETEOUSNESS is CHARITY DOCTRINE as not just St. Polycarp Taught this CONTEXT above in his phrases “… because “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH.” [Tobit 12:9]”  …” and  “… Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among youI exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful.If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen.  … . I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance!  …” but also his hearer St. Irenaeous himself speaks this same way as follows (please notice the words “ … the Lord, exposing his covetousness, said to him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell all that thou hast, and distribute to the poor; and come, follow me; ” … and do away with their former covetousness by good works, and follow after Christ. But that possessions distributed to the poor do annul former covetousness, Zaccheus made evident, when he said, “Behold, the half of my goods I give to the poor;  …” carefully):

 

“…  5. Now, that the law did beforehand teach mankind the necessity of following Christ, He does Himself make manifest, when He replied as follows to him who asked Him what he should do that he might inherit eternal life: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” But upon the other asking “Which? “” again the Lord replies: “Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, hon-our father and mother, and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,”-setting as an ascending series (velut gradus) before those who wished to follow Him, the precepts of the law, as the entrance into life; and What He then said to one He said to all. But when the former said, “All these have I done” (and most likely he had not kept them, for in that case the Lord would not have said to him, “Keep the commandments“), the Lord, exposing his covetousness, said to him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell all that thou hast, and distribute to the poor; and come, follow me; “promising to those who would act thus, the portion belonging to the apostles (apostolorum partem). And He did not preach to His followers another God the Father, besides Him who was proclaimed by the law from the beginning; nor another Son; nor the Mother, the enthymesis of the Aeon, who existed in suffering and apostasy; nor the Pleroma of the thirty Aeons, which has been proved vain, and incapable of being believed in; nor that fable invented by the other heretics. But He taught that they should obey the commandments which God enjoined from the beginning, and do away with their former covetousness by good works, and follow after Christ. But that possessions distributed to the poor do annul former covetousness, Zaccheus made evident, when he said, “Behold, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded any one, I restore fourfold.” …”  – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 12))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103412.htm

 

[To quote from Page 2040 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

Since the CONTEXT here is for TOBIT’S “ALMS DELIVERS FROM DEATH” perspective which St. POLYCARP himself Quotes in quote above, here are other related Verses in another translation too:

 

“…  6 Then he said to them SECRETLY: Bless ye the God of heaven, give glory to him in the sight of all that live, because he hath shewn his mercy to you. 7 For it is good to hide the secret of a king: but honourable to reveal and confess the works of God. 8 PRAYER IS GOOD WITH FASTING AND ALMS MORE THAN to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For ALMS DELIVERETH from DEATH, and the same is that which PURGETH AWAY SINS, and maketh to FIND MERCY AND LIFE EVERLASTING. … 15 For I am the angel RAPHAEL, one of the seven who stand before the Lord. …” (Bible Scripture.Net Translation, Tobit 12:6 – 9, 15)

 

Source: https://biblescripture.net/Tobias.html

 

“… 7 GIVE GENEROUSLY to anyone who faithfully obeys God. If you are stingy in giving to the poor, God will be stingy in giving to you. 8 Give according to what you have. THE MORE YOU HAVE, THE MORE YOU SHOULD GIVE. Even if you have only a little, be sure to give something. 9 This is as good as money saved. You will have your reward in a time of trouble. 10-11 TAKING CARE OF THE POOR is the kind of offering that PLEASES GOD IN HEAVEN. DO THIS, and YOU WILL BE KEPT SAFE FROM THE DARK WORLD OF THE DEAD. …” (Good News Translation, Tobit 4:7 – 11)

Source:  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit+4&version=GNT

 

We might just call this section as Prosperity Gospel vs Charity Doctrine Gospel via the Writings of St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeous of Lyons, St. Justin Martyr, St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Clement of Rome.

 

So if all of them above wrote clearly about the Charity Doctrine Gospel as a MUST for FRUIT of REPENTANCE CONTEXT quoting BIBLE VERSES, then how is it wrong?

 

We already saw St. Polycarp of Smyrna and St. Irenaeous of Lyons’ quotes prior. Let’s see the quotes from the others next.

 

St. Justin Martyr Quotes the Charity Doctrine Gospel as part of the BAPTISM COMMAND:

 

“…  Chapter 61. Christian baptism

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. John 3:5 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. Isaiah 1:16-20.  And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed. …”  –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church  (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, The First Apology, Chapter 61 )

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Charity Doctrine Gospel part in the above: “… learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow …”

St. Justin Martyr Quotes the Charity Doctrine Gospel as part of the RELIGIOUS OBSERVATION COMMAND: which GOD THE FATHER DESIRES above “any Worship or Fasting or Sabbath Keeping or even Prayer or even building a Church (house for Him)” calling those who disobey this as TRANGRESSORS as PROPHESIED in the OT:

 

“… Chapter 37. Utterances of the Father

And that this too may be clear to you, there were spoken from the person of the Father through Isaiah the Prophet, the following words: The ox knows his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but Israel does not know, and My people has not understood. Woe, sinful nation, a people full of sins, a wicked seed, children that are transgressors, you have forsaken the Lord. And again elsewhere, when the same prophet speaks in like manner from the person of the Father, What is the house that you will build for Me? Says the Lord. The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1 And again, in another place, Your new moons and your sabbaths My soul hates; and the great day of the fast and of ceasing from labour I cannot away with; nor, if you come to be seen of Me, will I hear you: your hands are full of blood; and if you bring fine flour, incense, it is abomination unto Me: the fat of lambs and the blood of bulls I do not desire. For who has required this at your hands? But loose every bond of wickedness, tear asunder the tight knots of violent contracts, cover the houseless and naked, deal your bread to the hungry. Isaiah 1:14, Isaiah 58:6 What kind of things are taught through the prophets from [the person of] God, you can now perceive. …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church  (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, The First Apology, Chapter 37 )

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

 

Charity Doctrine Gospel part in the above: “… But loose every bond of wickedness, tear asunder the tight knots of violent contracts, cover the houseless and naked, deal your bread to the hungry. Isaiah 1:14, Isaiah 58:6  …”

 

 

 

 

 

St. Justin Martyr Quotes the Charity Doctrine Gospel as part of the BOTH the TRUE PRAYER & FASTING and CIRCUMCISION of the HEART OBSERVATION COMMAND to be NEAR to GOD:

 

“… Chapter 15. In what the true fasting consists

Justin: Learn, therefore, to keep the true fast of God, as Isaiah says, that you may please God. Isaiah has cried thus:  Shout vehemently, and do not spare: lift up your voice as with a trumpet, and show My people their transgressions, and the house of Jacob their sins. They seek Me from day to day, and desire to know My ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the judgment of God. They ask of Me now righteous judgment, and desire to draw near to God, saying, Wherefore have we fasted, and You see not? And afflicted our souls, and You have not known? Because in the days of your fasting you find your own pleasure, and oppress all those who are subject to you. Behold, you fast for strifes and debates, and smite the humble with your fists. Why do you fast for Me, as today, so that your voice is heard aloud? This is not the fast which I have chosen, the day in which a man shall afflict his soul. And not even if you bend your neck like a ring, or clothe yourself in sackcloth and ashes, shall you call this a fast, and a day acceptable to the Lord. This is not the fast which I have chosen, says the Lord; but loose every unrighteous bond, dissolve the terms of wrongous covenants, let the oppressed go free, and avoid every iniquitous contract. Deal your bread to the hungry, and lead the homeless poor under your dwelling; if you see the naked, clothe him; and do not hide yourself from your own flesh. Then shall your light break forth as the morning, and your garments shall rise up quickly: and your righteousness shall go before you, and the glory of God shall envelope you. Then shall you cry, and the Lord shall hear you: while you are speaking, He will say, Behold, I am here. And if you take away from you the yoke, and the stretching out of the hand, and the word of murmuring; and shall give heartily your bread to the hungry, and shall satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall your light arise in the darkness, and your darkness shall be as the noon-day: and your God shall be with you continually, and you shall be satisfied according as your soul desires, and your bones shall become fat, and shall be as a watered garden, and as a fountain of water, or as a land where water fails not. Isaiah 58:1-12 Circumcise, therefore, the foreskin of your heart, as the words of God in all these passages demand. …” –  Blessed St. Justin Martyr, a Great Early Christian Apologist who is a Foremost Exponent of the Divine Word, who Influenced Virtually all of subsequent Christian philosophy and Catholic theology, Martyr for Christ, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church  (c. 100AD – c. 160 AD, Dialogue with Trypho (Chapters 15))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01282.htm

Charity Doctrine Gospel part in the above: “… Deal your bread to the hungry, and lead the homeless poor under your dwelling; if you see the naked, clothe himshall give heartily your bread to the hungry, and shall satisfy the afflicted soul; …”

St. Ignatius of Antioch Quotes THOSE WITHOUT the Charity Doctrine Gospel as part of the meaning of being UNBELIEVERS in the BLOOD of CHRIST and opposed to the will of God

 

“…Chapter 6. Unbelievers in the blood of Christ shall be condemned

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12 Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.  …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

 

Charity Doctrine Gospel part in the above: “… how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.  …”

 

In the “Longer” Writing of the above same writing, it is recorded also that St. Ignatius of Antioch Quotes that the Charity Doctrine Gospel as part of the meaning of being UNBELIEVERS in the BLOOD of CHRIST and opposed to the will of God

 

The GREATEST COMMANDMENT can ONLY be FULFILLED BEST with the Charity Doctrine Command to love one’s neighbour as one’s self to FOLLOW CHRIST as St. Irenaeous taught likewise in Page 2327:

 

“… Chapter VIUnbelievers in the Blood of Christ Shall Be Condemned.

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.  Let no man deceive himself. Unless he believes that Christ Jesus has lived in the flesh, and shall confess His cross and passion, and the blood which He shed for the salvation of the world, he shall not obtain eternal life, whether he be a king, or a priest, or a ruler, or a private person, a master or a servant, a man or a woman. “He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” Let no man’s place, or dignity, or riches, puff him up; and let no man’s low condition or poverty abase him. For the chief points are faith towards God, hope towards Christ, the enjoyment of those good things for which we look, and love towards God and our neighbour. For, “Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbour as thyself.” And the Lord says, “This is life eternal, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.” And again, “A new commandment give I unto you, that ye love one another. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Do ye, therefore, notice those who preach other doctrines, how they affirm that the Father of Christ cannot be known, and how they exhibit enmity and deceit in their dealings with one another. They have no regard for love; they despise the good things we expect hereafter; they regard present things as if they were durable; they ridicule him that is in affliction; they laugh at him that is in bonds. …” – Blessed St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, nicknamed ‘God-Bearing’, An Apostolic Father being the direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. John, Martyr for Christ, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 35 AD – c. 108 AD, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6) Source: https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

 

The Greatest Commandment part in the above:  “… “Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbour as thyself.” And the Lord says, “This is life eternal, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.” And again, “A new commandment give I unto you, that ye love one another. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Do ye, therefore, notice those who preach other doctrines,They have no regard for love; …” – Blessed St. Ignatius

 

The ”same” phrase “… They have no regard for love;  …”written in the above when teaching the Greatest Commandment part in the above  is “not” let to an arbitrary definition but rather to the Charity Doctrine Gospel part in the above just earlier a little in own words as follows: “… how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.  …” – Blessed St. Ignatius

 

Can you “see” the “… They have no regard for love …” part repeated twice above from which we can see the “connection of definition to the Charity Doctrine Gospel meant”?

St. Clement of Rome Quotes the Charity Doctrine Gospel as part of the remember Remember Lot’s Wife CONTEXT during the END TIMES: [to quote from Page 19 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

“… 32Remember Lot’s wife.  …” (Luke 17:32, NKJV)

 

Problem: Please notice carefully that the only sin Lot’s wife did WAS PROSPERITY.

 

Background: Blessed Righteous Lot did “not” fit it with the People of Sodom who did “not” care about the poor and were busy in seeking and enjoying prosperity and other sins.

 

“… Chapter 11. Continuation. Lot.

On account of his HOSPITALITY AND GODLINESS, LOT WAS SAVED out of Sodom when all the country around him was punished by means of FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those who hope in Him, but gives up THOSE WHO DEPART FROM HIM TO PUNISHMENT AND TORTURE. For Lot’s wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt to this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves, and become a sign to all succeeding generations. …” – Blessed St. Clement of Rome, an Apostolic Father being a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter (c.35 AD – c. 99 AD, 1 Clement, Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 11)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

 

Notice that even St. Clement of Rome teaches that both “HOLINESS (“piety”) + CHARITY DOCTRINE(justice) are essential for FRUIT of SALVATION as per his own words “HOSPITALITY AND GODLINESS” = CHARITY DOCTRINE and HOLINESSrespectively. Details for “HOLINESS (“piety”) + CHARITY DOCTRINE(justice) aspect DEFINITION is SCRIPTURE and with St. Irenaeous’ other quote can be seen around Pages 2330 and 2380 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook too. Compare:

“… Look, this was the iniquity of your sister SODOM: She and her daughter had PRIDE, FULLNESS OF FOOD, and ABUNDANCE OF IDLENESS; NEITHER did she strengthen the hand of the POOR and NEEDY. …” (Ezekiel 16:49, NKJV)

Righteous Lot was different especially since he practiced both “Hospitality and Godliness” which are the opposite of the “sins of Sodom” revealed in Ezekiel 16:49 above. The word “Sodom” and the context of “Hospitality” ties the quote up with this Verse.

[To quote from Page 1052 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

Note: This same “1 Clement” Book quoted above as “Prophecy” was part of the “Book in the Bibles” for some “early Churches” in case you didn’t know where the later guys only were unsure while “2 Clement” quoted next is debated but yet it still shows the FIRST JEWISH CHRISTIANITY Perspective regardless. Example Quote:

 

“… The epistle was publicly read from time to time in Corinth, and by the 4th century this usage had spread to other churches. It was included in the 5th century Codex Alexandrinus, which contained the entire Old and New Testaments.[18] It was included with the Gospel of John in the fragmentary early Greek and Akhmimic Coptic papyrus designated Papyrus 6. First Clement is listed as canonical in “Canon 85” of the Canons of the Apostles, showing that First Clement had canonical rank in at least some regions of early Christendom. Ibn Khaldun also mentions it as part of the New Testament,[19] suggesting that the book may have been in wide and accepted use in either 14th century Spain or Egypt.] …” Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Clement

 

[To quote from Page 1313 and 1314 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

In First Christianity such an understanding was commonplace, example quote [From Pages 26, 34 and 59 from the #EternalHellAnnihilationUniversalismBook or Page 109 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

“… 2Clem 16:1 Therefore, brethren, since we have found no small opportunity for repentance, seeing that we have time, let us turn again unto God that called us, while we have still One that receiveth us.2Clem 16:2 For if we bid farewell to these enjoyments and conquer our soul in refusing to fulfill its evil lusts, we shall be partakers of the mercy of Jesus. 2Clem 16:3 But ye know that the DAY OF JUDGMENT cometh even now as a BURNING OVEN, and the powers of the heavens shall melt, and all the earth as lead melting on the fire, and then shall appear the secret and open works of men. 2Clem 16:4 ALMSGIVING therefore is a good thing, EVEN AS REPENTANCE FROM SIN> FASTING IS BETTER THAN PRAYER, but ALMSGIVING BETTER THAN BOTH. And LOVE COVERETH A MULTITUDE OF SINS [1 Peter 4:8], but PRAYER out of a good conscience DELIVERETH FROM DEATH. BLESSED IS EVERY MAN that is FOUND FULL OF THESE. For ALMSGIVING LIFTETH OFF THE BURDEN OF SIN. 2Clem 17:1 Let us therefore repent with our whole heart, lest any of us perish by the way. For if we have received commands, that we should make this our business, to tear men away from idols and to instruct them, how much more is it wrong that a soul which knoweth God already should perish! …” (2 Clement, Attributed to Blessed St. Clement of Rome, a direct Disciple of the Blessed Apostle St. Peter, c.35 AD – c. 99 AD) Source:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-lightfoot.html

3) CHRISTIANS CHANGE into AN ANGELIC BEAUTY MYSTERY AT THE LAST TRUMPET

 

[To quote from Page 599 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

“… 50Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.  …” (1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52, NKJV)

 

Since “… NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV), let’s see the LAST TRUMPET  Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50 Verse to refer to the “Second Resurrection” Context which is 1000 years later from the CHRISTIAN (ELECT SALVATION) where  CHRISTIANS CHANGE into AN ANGELIC BEAUTY MYSTERY can be seen with these FIRST CHRISTIANITY quotes.

 

Let’s start with Blessed Tertullian who only Teaches Two PUBLIC COMINGS of CHRIST:

 

“… Chapter 21. … The Jews, too, were well aware that Christ was coming, as those to whom the prophets spoke. Nay, even now His advent is expected by them; nor is there any other contention between them and us, than that they believe the advent has not yet occurred. For two comings of Christ having been revealed to us: a first, which has been fulfilled in the lowliness of a human lot; a second, which impends over the world, now near its close, in all the majesty of Deity unveiled; and, by misunderstanding the first, they have concluded that the second — which, as matter of more manifest prediction, they set their hopes on — is the only one. It was the merited punishment of their sin not to understand the Lord’s first advent: for if they had, they would have believed; and if they had believed, they would have obtained salvation. …” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, Apology (Tertullian), Chapter 21-partial)

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0301.htm

 

 

 

 

Blessed Tertullian who only Teaches CHILIASM TIMELINE and has some similar quotes with St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself (who is more reliable in my opinion) as even the Roman Catholics themselves did “NOT saint Tertullian” due to “some montanism” he was in:

 

“… Chapter 25. [Christ’s Millennial and Heavenly Glory in Company with His Saints]. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, let down from heaven, Revelation 21:2 which the apostle also calls our mother from above; Galatians 4:26 and, while declaring that our πολίτευμα, or citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of Ezekiel 48:30-35 and the Apostle John beheld. Revelation 21:10-23 And the word of the new prophecy which is a part of our belief, attests how it foretold that there would be for a sign a picture of this very city exhibited to view previous to its manifestation. This prophecy, indeed, has been very lately fulfilled in an expedition to the East. For it is evident from the testimony of even heathen witnesses, that in Judæa there was suspended in the sky a city early every morning for forty days. As the day advanced, the entire figure of its walls would wane gradually, and sometimes it would vanish instantly. We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake. Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process. After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment: we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels, even by the investiture of an incorruptible nature, and so be removed to that kingdom in heaven of which we have now been treating, just as if it had not been predicted by the Creator, and as if it were proving Christ to belong to the other god and as if he were the first and sole revealer of it. But now learn that it has been, in fact, predicted by the Creator, and that even without prediction it has a claim upon our faith in respect of the Creator. What appears to be probable to you, when Abraham’s seed, after the primal promise of being like the sand of the sea for multitude, is destined likewise to an equality with the stars of heavenare not these the indications both of an earthly and a heavenly dispensation? When Isaac, in blessing his son Jacob, says, God give you of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, Genesis 27:28 are there not in his words examples of both kinds of blessing? Indeed, the very form of the blessing is in this instance worthy of notice. For in relation to Jacob, who is the type of the later and more excellent people, that is to say ourselves, first comes the promise of the heavenly dew, and afterwards that about the fatness of the earth. …” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, Against Marcion, Book III, Chapter 25-partial)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03123.htm

Blessed Tertullian who only Teaches that CHRISTIANS CHANGE into AN ANGELIC BEAUTY MYSTERY AT THE LAST TRUMPET highlight from earlier part:

 

“… Chapter 25. … Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process. After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment: we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels, even by the investiture of an incorruptible nature, and so be removed to that kingdom in heavenwhen Abraham’s seed, after the primal promise of being like the sand of the sea for multitude, is destined likewise to an equality with the stars of heavenare not these the indications both of an earthly and a heavenly dispensation? …” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, Against Marcion, Book III, Chapter 25-partial)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03123.htm

 

Focus: “… CHRISTIANS CHANGE into AN ANGELIC BEAUTY MYSTERY AT THE LAST TRUMPET …” = “… After its thousand years are over,  … conflagration of all things at the judgment: we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels, …”

 

Please consider the matching with 1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52 earlier in Page 2397:

 

“…AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound,  …” = “… After its thousand years are over …” – Blessed Tertullian

 

“… and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE,  …” = “… conflagration of all things at the judgment …” – Blessed Tertullian

 

“… FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God  … 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye  … and WE SHALL BE CHANGED  …” = “… we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels …” – Blessed Tertullian

 

“… 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye  …” = “… changed in a moment …”

 

“… WE SHALL BE CHANGED …” = “… we … be changed into the substance of angels… ”

I repeat:

“… 50Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.  …” (1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52, NKJV)

 

[To quote from Page 2062 to 2063 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there]

 

The phrase “… that the FLESH INDEED DIES, but the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN LIVES.  …” attributed to St. Justin Martyr here by St. Methodius can easily mean our quote by St. Methodius where “FLESH and BLOOD CANNOT Inherit the KINGDOM of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50’s CONTEXT) is quoted by St. Methodius prior to only refer to this CHANGE from FLESH and BLOOD Resurrection for CHRISTIANS at the FIRST RESURRECTION where AFTER the THOUSAND YEARS, i.e. on JUDGMENT DAY (combining with the 1Enoch Quote which seems to match this well) where the HONOUR AND GLORY of the LIGHT OF DAYS Rests upon them and they BECOME ANGELIC BEAUTY with NO MORE FLESH AND BLOOD anymore (as St. Justin calls it here “FLESH INDEED DIES“) but they INHERIT the KINGDOM of HEAVEN (only CHRISTIANS INHERIT HEAVEN being IMMORTALS as the phrase “which is IMMORTAL INHERITS;” agrees too), LIVING ON in IT as in ANGELIC FORM (as the phrase “…but the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN LIVES. …” matches as well from this) as CHRIST’S WORDS Seem to Echo in Luke 20:34 – 36 too (all quoted next) and this is very likely true because “… NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV) and so these FIRST CHRISTIANITY GIANTS of FAITH’s Quotes here seem to seal this meaning (interpretation). Please consider his quote below in “full” which clearly Speaks of the “Christian/Elect Resurrection only” to undergo this “CHANGE” which ONLY TAKES PLACE at the END of the 1000 years  i.e. at the “LAST TRUMPET” when “WE SHALL BE CHANGED” as Written Twice in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 1 Corinthians 15:52, to quote:

 

“…  For I also, taking my journey, and going forth from the Egypt of this life, CAME FIRST TO THE RESURRECTION, which is the true Feast of the Tabernacles, and there having set up my tabernacle, ADORNED WITH THE FRUITS OF VIRTUE, ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE RESURRECTION, which is the DAY OF JUDGMENT, CELEBRATE WITH CHRIST THE MILLENNIUM OF REST, WHICH IS CALLED THE SEVENTH DAY, EVEN THE TRUE SABBATH. Then again from thence I, a follower of Jesus, who has entered into the heavens, Hebrews 4:14 as they also, after the rest of the Feast of Tabernacles, came into the laud of promise, come into the heavens, not continuing to remain in tabernacles — that is, my body not remaining as it was before, but, AFTER THE SPACE OF A THOUSAND YEARS, CHANGED FROM A HUMAN AND CORRUPIBLE FORM INTO ANGELIC SIZE AND BEAUTY, where at last we virgins, when the FESTIVAL OF THE RESURRECTION IS CONSUMMATED, shall pass from the wonderful place of the tabernacle to greater and better things, ascending into the very house of God above the heavens, as, says the Psalmist, in the voice of praise and thanksgiving, among such as keep holy day.  …” – Blessed St. Methodius of Olympus, bishop in Lycia. Little is known of his life. He was apparently put to death in the Diocletianic persecution. Only a small part of his extensive writing survives. The ‘Symposium [Banquet], or On Chastity’, also known as the ‘Banquet of the Ten Virgins’, extols virginity. In a treatise on the Resurrection, he took issue with Origen and upheld the identity of the resurrection body with that worn in this life. His work on Free Will is a defence of human liberty against the fatalism of the Gnostics (died c. 311 AD, Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9, Chapter 5)  Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/062309.htm

 

“… 50Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.  …” (1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52, NKJV)

 

The phrase “… that FLESH AND BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God; …” Written in 1 Corinthians 15:50 (Verse 50) here and then this change described at Judgment Day Timeline means that the “New Heavens and New Earth” are only inheritable by a CHANGE in the BODY with is NO MORE FLESH and BLOOD which St. Methodius CALLS IT ANGELIC. Can you see it? [More related details in Pages 599 to 602 if keen]

 

Luke 20:34 – 36 may be Summarising this Change as a whole that within that AGE (AEON) of 1000 years, Christians by the end of it WILL BE CHANGED into ANGELIC BEAUTY as CHRIST HIMSELF Reveals below:

 

“… 34JESUS ANSWERED and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that AGE (Aeon/Olam), and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 20:4 – 6), NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; 36NOR CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE, FOR THEY ARE EQUAL TO THE ANGELS and ARE SONS OF GOD, being SONS OF THE RESURRECTION. …” (Luke 20:34 – 36, NKJV)

 

So Christ must be Describing this Process as a ‘whole’ as in His Resurrection He also looked Human with “FLESH and BONES” as He Himself Said (in Luke 24:39 so we will be likewise first) but could walk through walls too (John 20:24 – 29) but in the end of that AEON/AGE (referring to the 1000 years Millennial reign Context) WILL BE EQUAL TO ANGELS and ARE SONS OF GOD (in Luke 20:34 – 36 above).

Note: Regarding POSSIBLE NON ELECT SALVATION Belief in Tertullian, please recall that he believed in “PURGATORY” and also that “Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture” in Pages 1578 to 1691 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook where his belief in “Purgatory” may have been misguided since the “Shepherd of Hermas points that those who undergo such afterlife Judgments may NOT be ELIGIBLE for ELECT SALVATION anymore” and not understanding this may have limited his view in that only Christians are saved or thus he may have missed the NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY which can be seen even from the SHEPHERD of HERMAS itself which I have detailed especially in Pages 2248 to 2250 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook (with some new details updated there). Here is Tertullian’s Purgatory Quote:

 

“… Chapter 35 …    Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term adversary to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as the accuser of the brethren, Revelation 12:10 or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?…” – Blessed Tertullian, Father of Latin Christianity, Founder of Western Theological Scholarship, c. 155 AD – c. 240 AD, A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter 35-partial)

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0310.htm

 

The reason why I mention “Roman Catholic Source” is not because I am a Roman Catholic (but am a Protestant) but even your “King James Bible” was translated based on “the Original Manuscripts’ Copies” which are “preserved by the Roman Catholics. And so, if you can believe that God preserved even Scripture to their hands, then it is safe to consider even these writings as authentic likewise. Can you see it?

 

 

 

 

 

In light of even Blessed Tertullian who only Teaches that CHRISTIANS CHANGE into AN ANGELIC BEAUTY MYSTERY AT THE LAST TRUMPET (i.e. AFTER the THOUSAND YEARS Millennial Reign of Christ during the First Resurrection of Christians), then since St. Irenaeous of Lyons quote next also uses this SAME PHRASE “… by the LAST TRUMPET …” referring to this same Verse in 1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52 earlier, St. Irenaeous of Lyons quote next “… , that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as …” seems to have a  POSSIBLE “Second Badge of Righteous Saved” during the “Second Resurrection” Quote in quote next which could refer to the “… and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE,  …” part (in 1 Corinthians 15:50 – 52, NKJV) where some could have the NON ELECT SALVATION part described as “ …; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, …” below:

[To quote from Page 2344 to 2348 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

“… 1. Let our opponents-that is, they who speak against their own salvation-inform us [as to this point]: The deceased daughter of the high priest; the widow’s dead son, who was being carded out [to burial] near the gate [of the city]; and Lazarus, who had lain four days in the tomb, -in what bodies did they rise again? In those same, no doubt, in which they had also died. For if it were not in the very same, then certainly those same individuals who had died did not rise again. For [the Scripture] says, “The Lord took the hand of the dead man, and said to him, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And the dead man sat up, and He commanded that something should be given him to eat; and He delivered him to his mother.” Again, He called Lazarus “with a loud voice, saying, Lazarus, come forth; and HE that WAS DEAD came forth bound with bandages, feet and hands.” This was SYMBOLICAL of that MAN who had been BOUND in SINS. And therefore the Lord said, “Loose him, and let him depart.” As, therefore, THOSE who were HEALED were MADE WHOLE in THOSE MEMBERS which had in TIMES PAST been AFFLICTED; and the DEAD ROSE in the IDENTICAL BODIES, their limbs and bodies receiving health, and that life which was granted by the Lord, who prefigures eternal things by temporal, and shows that it is He who is Himself able to extend BOTH HEALING and LIFE to HIS HANDIWORK, that His words concerning its [future] RESURRECTION may also be believed; so also at the END, when the Lord utters His voice “by the LAST TRUMPET,” [1 Corinthians 15:52] the dead shall be raised, as He Himself declares: “The HOUR SHALL COME, in which ALL THE DEAD which are in the TOMBS shall hear the voice of the Son of man, and shall come forth; those that have DONE GOOD to the RESURRECTION of LIFE, and those that have DONE EVIL to the RESURRECTION of JUDGMENT.” [John 5:28 – 29] …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 13))

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103513.htm

 

[Recall from Page 2262 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

St. Irenaeous’ quote of John 5:28 – 29 seem to point to the “Last Trumpet” (“Second Resurrection”) pointing to “hour is coming or HOUR SHALL COME” referring to John 5:28 – 29 literal simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ which is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5) WHICH SEEM TO BE EXTENDED TO THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE from ALL TIMELINES  and NOT THOSE MORTALS OF THE 1000 YEARS MILLENNIAL TIMELINE ONLY (Please read ‘his quote carefully next to note this’):

 

“… the same Lord has pointed out that the WHOLE HUMAN RACE SHALL BE DIVIDED AT JUDGMENT, “ AS A SHEPHERD DIVIDETH THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS,” [Matthew 25:32] and that to some He will say, “Come, ye blessed of My Father, receive the kingdom which has been prepared for you,” [Matthew 25:34] but to others, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which My Father has prepared for the devil and his angels,” [Matthew 25:41] one and the same Father is manifestly declared [in this passage], “making peace and creating evil things,” preparing fit things for both; …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church     (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 40)

Roman Catholic Source:  https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103440.htm

 

This simultaneous resurrection of a ‘Second Badge of Righteous to be Saved’ above MUST BE NON ELECT SALVATION if True because it is clearly 1000 YEARS AFTER the FIRST RESURRECTION of CHRISTIANS (Revelation 20:5)  where he believed it included all the thirty, sixty and hundredfold ones in the WEDDING of the LAMB, to quote (for comparison), yes St. Irenaeous of Lyons clearly affirms that this Position is Taught by the ‘Prebysters’ whom he refers below as the DIRECT DISCIPLES of the APOSTLES ONLY:

 

“… And as the presbyters* say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the WEDDING. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature… For in the TIMES of the KINGDOM, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die.John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the FIRST “RESURRECTION of the JUST,” and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church     (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 36))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103536.htm

 

[Please notice the word WEDDING which indicates that the MARRIAGE of the LAMB with HIS CHURCH happens during CHRIST’S SECOND  COMING followed by the MILLENNIAL REIGN called the “TIMES of the KINGDOM” in his writing]

 

Please also notice that St. Irenaeous’ quote above include “ALL Christians”  because there are only three types of Christians namely, the “Thirtyfold, Sixtyfold and Hundredfold” harvest of the Gospel (Matthew 13:8) and all are mentioned in quote above to participate in the “First Resurrection only to partake of the Wedding of the Lamb” as those of the Second Resurrection 1000 years later (Revelation 20:5) will certainly “miss” this “Wedding Banquet of the Lamb” and so if anyone is saved during the “Second  Resurrection” it must be a NON ELECT SALVATION only most likely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

POSSIBILITY Summary

 

Non-Elect Salvation means they can be saved probably on at most the Final New Earth (i.e. the phrase “nations of those who are saved” where some/all of them may need the “leaves of the tree of life for healing”) but NO Heaven Inheritance (which is ONLY for Elect Salvation, the “Heavenly  Bride/Christians“)  but “some” from that FINAL NEW EARTH may “VISIT the BRIDE” for example the “KINGS OF THE EARTH” with CONDITION their NAMES MUST be in the LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE as these are clearly distinguished in Verses below and so it is POSSIBLE (let GOD DECIDE):

 

 

“… But THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT LIVE AGAIN until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. … 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. …”1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA.  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE. …” … In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the TREE OF LIFE, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. …” (Revelation 20:5, 11 – 15, 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27,  22:2, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

 

or they could be among these whom the BRIDE calls to ON THAT FUTURE TIMELINE AFTER the LITERAL WATER of LIFE is REVEALED (because no matter if this water is physical or spiritual it is ONLY Revealed AFTER JUDGMENT DAY since NO ONE CAN PARTAKE of it UNTIL they are in their FINAL RESURRECTION BODY – can you “see” it? Also it is ONLY Created on the FINAL NEW EARTH and HEAVENS and NOT during the CURRENT NEW EARTH and HEAVEN which will pass away on Judgment Day during the Second Resurrection as Revelation 21:1 indicates clearly too when the saints Reign with Him there). Here are those ‘highlighted parts’ in TIMELINE ORDER as IT IS WRITTEN (as per the CHILIASM TIMELINE Reading Employed for it “Literally” despite if it is a “material Water of life” or “Spiritual Water of life” this Context of “Time” seems to remain the “same”, can you see it?):

 

…”1Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was NO MORE SEA..  ” … Come, I will show you the [g]BRIDE, the LAMB’S WIFE.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and SHOWED ME THE [H]GREAT CITY, the [I]HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN from God,  … … 24And the NATIONS [N]OF THOSE WHO ARE SAVED shall walk in its light, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH bring their glory and honor [o]into it. 25Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into [p]it. 27But there shall by no means enter it anything [q]that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but ONLY THOSE WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE..  … 1And he showed me a [a]pure RIVER of WATER OF LIFE, clear as crystal, proceeding from the THRONE of GOD and of the LAMB. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the TREE OF LIFE, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS. 3And there shall be NO MORE CURSE, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be NO NIGHT there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. … And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY. …” – Blessed Apostle St. John (Revelation 21:1, 9 – 10, 24 – 27, Revelation 22:1 – 5, 17, NKJV)

 

I cannot say which is which 100% for sure and so LET GOD DECIDE ONE DAY.

 

Further POSSIBILITY claims in support of a NON ELECT SALVATION for WATER of LIFE Context and reference in Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 was discussed in Pages 2265 to 2277 in this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

 

St. Irenaeous of Lyons Declares that Lord Jesus Christ is God

“… 6. … And through the Word Himself who had been made visible and palpable, was the Father shown forth, although all did not equally believe in Him; but all saw the Father in the Son: for the Father is the invisible of the Son, but the Son the visible of the Father. And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God. …” – Blessed St. Irenaeous of Lyons, a Hearer of Blessed St. Polycarp who is an Apostolic Father being the Disciple of Blessed St. John who wrote the Book of Revelation, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church, Latest Doctor of the Church in 2022 only  (c. 130 AD – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 6 – partial))

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103406.htm

 

Please notice that St. Irenaeous of Lyons declares that Lord Jesus Christ is God not in some generic sense but in this:

 

“… for the Father is the invisible of the Son,  …” = The Son and Father Exist Equally for if the Son was ‘Created later’ by the Father (as some claim) then this phrase  is void for those times when the Son hasn’t existed which is a contradiction according to St. Irenaeous’ quote here. Can you “see” it?

 

“… but the Son the visible of the Father …” = Equally this phrase shows something like the “if and only if” clause in Math where the claim works both ways as St. Irenaeous’ quote here in the Context of Lord Jesus Christ as VISIBLE GOD who became more VISIBLE to us WHEN HE BECAME FLESH as St. Irenaeous of Lyons writes (not me) that this CONTEXT is for “…for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God …” in the above. Can you really “see” it?

 

Compare [Emphasis Mine]:

“… He [Lord Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, …  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. …” (Colossians 1:15, 18 NKJV)

Note: “FirstbornContext = Risen from the dead and NOT point of existence

 

“… firstborn over all creation …” (Verse 15) = “… the firstborn from the dead, …” (Verse 18)

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Closer to God = #CharityDoctrine + Love according to Origen

 

Source:

 

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/pfbid02Vc2NCDmAJc6U31hjnBsRFNa9DSEWMpDqmRmbaochVpk7YhtatmbrjWpcF52Ys6oCl

 

Please notice that even Origen himself Teaches that the “path” or way to get “Closer to God” is inclusive of the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle in quote in image where the last phrase there captures it as the  “Charity” part where BOTH “Charity and Love” are mentioned and so it’s NOT a translation of Óld English’s Charity = Love case here. Can you “see” it?

 

 

#Charity = #CharityDoctrine = #CharityDoctrineLifestyle

 

Also Origen’s commentary regarding the “Song of Solomon” or Song of Songs” is important because he was the ”first” to view it allegorically as between ”Christ and His Church” in the ”Bridegroom and Bride” sense before any modern commentators copied the idea likewise either directly or indirectly through others, example quote:

 

“… The Christian church’s interpretation of the Song as evidence of God’s love for his people, both collectively and individually, BEGAN WITH ORIGEN. Over the centuries the emphases of interpretation shifted, first reading the Song as a depiction of the love between Christ and Church, …

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Songs

 

Please note that even Blessed Martin Luther, the First Protestant Champion of Faith did “not” see “Blessed Origen of Alexandria” as a ‘heretic’ even if the former believed in Eternal Hell while the latter in Universalism as per example quote  from Page 992 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ‘[more details there] ‘ïn Martin Luther’s own words” as follows:

 

“… For the opinion that GOD COULD NOT HAVE CREATED MAN to be REJECTED and CAST AWAY into ETERNAL TORMENT IS HELD AMONG US ALSO, as it was at all times by some of the most renowned people, such as Origen and his kind.  …” – Blessed Martin Luther, The First Champion of the Protestant Faith, (letter to “Hans von Rechenberg”)

 

Source (Page 14):

https://www.amazon.com/Larger-Hope-Universal-Reformation-Nineteenth/dp/1498200400

 

Who was Origen?

 

Blessed Origen of Alexandria, the Great but surprisingly Modest Exegete of the Eastern Church, “Nicknamed: Admantius or Man of Steel”, Tortured and Martyred for Christ who also was used by God to decide which of the available six Hebrew Bible Variants called the Hexapla was to be used for the Christian Church

(c. 184 AD – c. 253 AD)

 

Origen was not a normal Church Father either because he lived out the penniless Charity Doctrine Command of Christ for “Perfection” in Matthew 19 to being an Eunuch for the Kingdom of Heaven;’s sake too as Christ Mentioned in Matthew 19 also and even died a Martyr for Christ in the end but due to some ”errors in theology relating to some type of transmigration doctrine of souls and extreme universalism” he was condemned as even Professor Philip Schaff* (whom I quote often) said this regarding him:

 

“… Professor Schaff* on Origen

The historian Schaff declares: “It is impossible to deny a respectful sympathy to this extraordinary man, who, with all his brilliant talents, and a host of enthusiastic friends and admirers, was driven from his country, stripped of his sacred office, excommunicated from a part of the church, then thrown into a dungeon, loaded with chains, racked by torture, doomed to drag his aged frame and dislocated limbs in pain and poverty, and long after his death to have his memory branded, his name anathematized, and his salvation denied; but who, nevertheless, did more than all his enemies combined to advance the cause of sacred learning, to refute and convert heathens and heretics, and to make the church respected in the eyes of the world. Origen was the greatest scholar of his age, and the most learned and gracious of all the ante-Nicene fathers. Even heathens and heretics admired or feared his brilliant talents. His knowledge embraced all departments of the linguistics, philosophy and theology of his day. With this he united profound and fertile thought, keen penetration, and glowing imagination. As a true divine he consecrated all his studies by prayer, and turned them, according to his best conventions, to the service of truth and piety.”3 …”

 

Source: https://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd10.html

 

*Protestant Historian Professor Philip Schaff, Professor of Church History and Biblical Literature in the German Reformed Theological Seminary

 

Hey, Origen taught even Mathematics and secular Academic at Alexandria (in case you didn’t know).

 

Likewise: I do “not” think that Origen is unsaved even if he was wrong on some extreme Universalism points.

 

Please remember that Origen of Alexandria” is Church Fathers APPROVED by the FIRST PROTESTANT FATHERS in their BOOK OF CONCORD too (hence he must be saved even if his Universalism Quotes here are in error, right? Same goes to ORIGEN too who was a Universalist), example approval quote, please notice his name mentioned carefully:

 

“… The Lutheran Church did not start in the 1500s, but is the continuation of the one catholic (universal) Church, including everyone who taught and believed the one catholic faith. In The Book of Concord, the Early Church fathers are referenced and quoted in every confessional document (except the Small Catechism). Here are all the ones mentioned: … Justin Martyr, IRENAEUS, and TERTULLIAN from the second century. ORIGEN, Cyprian, Anthony of Egypt, ATHANASIUS, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, HILARY OF POITIERS, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, and Leo I covered the third, fourth, and fifth centuries .Gregory I, Bede, and John of Damascus from the sixth, seventh, and eighth centuries. These men taught and wrote throughout  . … The Christian faith did not originate with us. The Christian faith is handed on from one generation of saints to the next, as each generation holds to Scripture. There is so much we can learn from the faithful teachers of the ancient Church, for we are all part of the same catholic Church. They should not be strangers to us. If we are truly Lutheran, then they are truly our fathers. …”

Source:  https://lutheranreformation.org/history/lutherans-early-church-fathers/

 

In First Christianity, Örigen’s defenders were the best of Orthodox in their times even if they didn’t agree to all of his theology. Example quote:

 

Even the Roman Catholic Church’s Best feel the Zeal of both Origen and Pamphilus for the Gospel, to quote from Page 951 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook (more details there):

 

“… Origen, most modest of writers, hardly ever alludes to himself in his own works; but Eusebius has devoted to him almost the entire sixth book of “Ecclesiastical History”. Eusebius** was thoroughly acquainted with the life of his hero; he had collected a hundred of his letters; in collaboration with the martyr Pamphilus he had composed the “Apology for Origen”; he dwelt at Caesarea where Origen’s library was preserved, and where his memory still lingered; if at times he may be thought somewhat partial, he is undoubtedly well informed. We find some details also in the “Farewell Address” of St. Gregory Thaumaturgus to his master, in the controversies of St. Jerome and Rufinus, in St. Epiphanius (Haeres., LXIV), and in Photius (Biblioth. Cod. 118)… ”

 

Source: http://catholicencyclopedia.newadvent.com/cathen/11306b.htm

 

** Who is Ëusebius” mentioned above?

Blessed Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and  Father of Church History

(c. 260/265 – 30 May 339), also known as Eusebius Pamphili .

 

Now what did the “Father of Church Historydirectly say regarding “Origen”?

 

“…Eusebius says that his life is worthy of being recorded from “his tender infancy.” Even when a child “he was wholly borne away by the desire of becoming a martyr,” and so divine a spirit did he show, and such devotedness to his religion, even as a child, that his father, frequently, “when standing over his sleeping boy, would uncover his breast, and as a shrine consecrated by the Divine Spirit, reverently kiss the breast of his favorite offspring. As his doctrine so was his life; and as his life, so also was his doctrine.” His Bishop, Demetrius, praised him highly, till “seeing him doing well, great and illustrious and celebrated by all, was overcome by human infirmity,” and maligned him throughout the church.  …”

Source: https://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd10.html

Example of Origen’s impact on the “Bible Canon” may be seen in link below:

http://www.ntcanon.org/Origen.shtml

Even the Roman Catholics know and acknowledge Origen’s illustrious history and life for the Gospel as recorded by Blessed Eusebius, as demonstrated in links below:

  1. i) Origen’s father was “Leonides” a Great Martyr for Christ

 

“… Chapter 1. The Persecution under Severus. When Severus began to persecute the churches, glorious testimonies were given everywhere by the athletes of religion. This was especially the case in Alexandria, to which city, as to a most prominent theater, athletes of God were brought from Egypt and all Thebais according to their merit, and won crowns from God through their great patience under many tortures and every mode of death. Among these was Leonides, who was called the father of Origen, and who was beheaded while his son was still young. How remarkable the predilection of this son was for the Divine Word, in consequence of his father’s instruction, it will not be amiss to state briefly, as his fame has been very greatly celebrated by many  …” – Blessed Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and  Father of Church History, Church History (Book VI),  (c. 260/265 – 30 May 339), also known as Eusebius Pamphili
Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250106.htm

Comment: Blessed Origen did NOT come from some “Prosperity family” and hoped for “Universalism” which included even “his father’s murderers” while he lived penniless and as an eunuch and in poverty and even died a martyr with torture as we saw earlier. Can you “see” it? That’s why I still treat some of his points as a “possibility”.

  1. ii) Origen’s Eunuch for the Kingdom of Heaven deed

 

“…Chapter 8. Origen’s Daring Deed.

  1. At this time while Origen was conducting catechetical instruction at Alexandria, a deed was done by him which evidenced an immature and youthful mind, but at the same time gave the highest proof of faith and continence. For he took the words, There are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake, Matthew 19:12 in too literal and extreme a sense. And in order to fulfill the Saviour’s word, and at the same time to take away from the unbelievers all opportunity for scandal — for, although young, he met for the study of divine things with women as well as men, — he carried out in action the word of the Saviour. …” – Blessed Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and Father of Church History, Church History (Book VI),  (c. 260/265 – 30 May 339), also known as Eusebius Pamphili

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250106.htm

 

iii) Blessed Eusebius records that Bishop of Alexandria, Demetrius became “jealous” of Origen but Origen was well received and even ordained by the Bishops in the Regions of “Palestine” (Jerusalem, Israel) where the “Gospel was born”

 

“…Chapter 8. Origen’s Daring Deed. …   4. Such was he at that time. But soon afterward, seeing that he was prospering, and becoming great and distinguished among all men, the same Demetrius, overcome by human weakness, wrote of his deed as most foolish to the bishops throughout the world. But the bishops of Cesarea and Jerusalem, who were especially notable and distinguished among the bishops of Palestine, considering Origen worthy in the highest degree of the honor, ordained him a presbyter.

  1. Thereupon his fame increased greatly, and his name became renowned everywhere, and he obtained no small reputation for virtue and wisdom. But Demetrius, having nothing else that he could say against him, save this deed of his boyhood, accused him bitterly, and dared to include with him in these accusations those who had raised him to the presbyterate. …”– Blessed Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea and Father of Church History, Church History (Book VI), (c. 260/265 – 30 May 339), also known as Eusebius PamphiliRoman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250106.htm

 

The rest you can read in link above which is “plenty”.

 

Here’s one of the most Mysterious part as even St. Gregory of Neocaesarea wrote a DEFENSE and TRIBUTE for HIS MASTER ORIGEN, to quote from Page 848 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook since even Charismatics Quote Gregory of Neocaesarea or Gregory the Miracle-Worker – but do they really know him?

 

Gregory Neocaesarea (AD 213-270)

 

Consider these words from church historian, Justo Gonzalez, as he chronicles some of the things that took place in the life of Gregory Neocaesarea.

 

‘The most famous of these workers of miracles was Gregory Thaumaturgus – a name that means “wonderworker.” He was from the region of Pontus, and had been converted through the learned witness of Origen. But upon returning to Pontus and becoming bishop of Neocaesarea, his great evangelistic success was due, not to his theological arguments, but to the miracles that he was said to perform. These were mostly miracles of healing, but we are also told that he could control the course of a river in flood, and that the apostles and the Virgin appeared to him and guided his work.’ (Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Volume 1: The Early Church to the Dawn of the Reformation, p99)

 

Source:  https://continuationism.com/2010/05/16/the-charismata-in-church-history/

 

Note: Don’t worry there was “no” Prayer to Virgin Mary in either that vision nor in his writings. If someone says otherwise, ask them “where”? as I have already discussed this aspect in Page 850 to 852 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

3) Who Baptized and Taught him?

 

The Great Blessed Origen of Alexandria himself where despite Origen had some weird doctrine later on Blessed St. Gregory the Miracle Worker defended his master to the end:

 

“… Gregory was born to a pagan family in Neocaesarea in Pontus (northeastern Asia Minor, modern Turkey). He took the name Gregory after his conversion and baptism at Caesarea in Palestine under the influence of Origen, an outstanding early theologian and teacher of the Church. After a time as a student of Origen, he returned to his hometown, and around AD 240 became bishop of the city. He gained a reputation as a miracle worker and was known by the name Thaumaturgus (“wonder-worker”).

 

As a pupil of Origen, Gregory continued to expound Origen’s ideas. This third century creed by Gregory of Neocaesarea is preserved in a biography of him written by Gregory of Nyassa. It emphasizes the eternal divinity of Jesus as the Son of God, without addressing what exactly distinguishes the Son from the Father. Origen had strongly affirmed the eternity of Jesus as the Son of God while at the same time tending to subordinate the Son to God the Father. Gregory follows Origen on the first point, but does not deal with the subordination theme. …”

 

Source: https://www.crivoice.org/creedgregory.html

 

or

 

“… In his panegyric on Origen, Gregory describes the method employed by that master to win the confidence and esteem of those he wished to convert; how he mingled a persuasive candour with outbursts of temper and theological argument put cleverly at once and unexpectedly. Persuasive skill rather than bare reasoning, and evident sincerity and an ardent conviction were the means Origen used to make converts. … Before leaving Palestine, Gregory delivered in presence of Origen a public farewell oration in which he returned thanks to the illustrious master he was leaving. This oration is valuable from many points of view. As a rhetorical exercise it exhibits the excellent training given by Origen, and his skill in developing literary taste and the amount of adulation then permissible towards a living person in an assembly composed mostly of Christians, and Christian in temper. …”

 

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Thaumaturgus

 

‘… Any Friend of Christ is a Friend of Mine …’

 

Peace to you

 

 

Source for Assemblies of God (AOG)’s Belief part:

https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/Reformed-Theology-Response-of-the-AG-Position-Paper

Peace to you

 

 

 

 

Principal Atheism Argument Refuted

 

A similar answer to ‘… How can God allow children to suffer in this World? …’

 

Fast Reply: Suddenly the “non Charity Doctrine practicing atheists” and those “who exploit the parents of such children in cheap labour from those marginalized communities who have no choice” are “suddenly” all interested in “children suffering” where after this question they will be “feasting on expensive prosperity meals everyday (not once in a while but as long as they can afford it)”. Can you “see” it?

 

Once I heard a question like this from a former student who was involved in making friends and mixing with ‘Gangsters’:

 

“… Why did God make my mother poor and we to suffer? …”

 

Replies:

 

  1. God did not do it. It was a “Free Will” choice by your grandparents who either did not provide or abandoned her like that as God’s Command for marriage providence was always as follows:

 

“…  A GOOD MAN leaves an INHERITANCE to his CHILDREN’S CHILDREN, …” (Proverbs 13:22, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/proverbs/13-22.htm

 

So based on these “Bible Verses“, are were they “good parents“?

 

Also let us remember that your grandparents and your mother did “not” believe in the “Christian God” either “nor” obeyed Him and so how it is His Fault then? Now, even  for the cases where such believe in the “Christian God”, if they did NOT obey this Verse, it’s still “not” God’s Fault as they “disobeyed it by their own free choice“. Can you “see” it?

 

  1. Does it apply in the New Testament? Yes, Verse:

 

“… For the CHILDREN OUGHT NOT TO LAY UP FOR THE PARENTS, BUT THE PARENTS FOR THE CHILDREN. …” (2 Corinthians 12:14, NKJV)

 

Source:https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/12-14.htm

 

 

  1. Regarding the part where “they suffered” due to “racism” or even “by others” did you notice that most of them who made them suffer were also “from their own race” (proving that racism is not the only factor) and by “others” (some of whom are the same religion as you meaning religious beliefs are not a factors always either) as even “Atheists” can give them “low pay and use them to work in their business” for the ‘sake of prosperity for their own families’ (where the fair pay would be what you would have paid if it was you or your own son/daughter if they were disadvantaged in life and had to work this labour likewise instead).

 

Can you “see” the real problem which is “free choice” and “prosperity” doctrine?

 

I mean because of belief in “prosperity” doctrine (no matter one believes  in God or not or in any religion), being “richwhilst doing so makes them “feel” like they are “blessed by God” and the “poor working for them are the cursed ones“.

 

Can you “see” it?

 

That is why within my own religion of Christianity, we oppose the “Prosperity Gospel” vehemently for reasons such as this as the “promotion/money” you get could be a “racial bias to other unfair factors” which taking it you may have robbed another person who was more deserving of it in your place of work itself.

 

Another example: Two people can sell the same thing, example a “house”. Even if you are approached by a person of a different race as the agent, you may eventually find within that company a person who is of the “same race/same Church” or even a “female” to do the sale as opposed to the “male agent” earlier. I mean by “precedence” of principle you should have taken that male agent as he approached you first. However, you did these latter approach based on your “personal bias and free choice” and then the successful agent will claim this as “God’s Blessing in his or her’s own religion in the name of prosperity“.

 

So does the above example which can be made analogous to ‘any other business cases likewise’ look like “God’s Blessing” to you? It looks more to me that such “Prosperity” Method takes HIS MOST HOLY NAME in VAIN Breaking the 3rd Greatest Commandment and so it’s worse than even “murder or adultery” which are further down the list (Can you “really” see it?)

 

“… You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain….” (Exodus 20:7, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/exodus/20-7.htm

 

 

Regarding suffering when we are the authours of our own “evil choices” in ways of “prosperity seeking like the above making unfair decisions toward others to feed your own family” or simply giving birth to one broken family to another doesn’t count to anything as this Verse Warned of “Suffering for our own faults“:

 

“… For what credit is it if, WHEN YOU ARE BEATEN FOR YOUR FAULTS, YOU TAKE IT PATIENTLY? But when YOU DO GOOD AND SUFFER, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God …” (1 Peter 2:20, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/2-20.htm

 

[ To quote from Pages 367 and 368 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook  or Pages 24 to 25 of the #CharityDoctrineBook, more details there if you are keen] such “rich” will have “nosuffering in their lives with plenty of “health and wealth” because if they suffered here they ‘could repent’ which is ‘blocked out for them’ so they cannot see they’re wrong (as most people think that when you have ‘health and wealth, God is with you which is FALSE’ according to these BIBLE VERSES even as they ‘practiced such evil’ but yet the “Prosperity” they can have is “… EVEN MORE THAN HEART COULD WISH…”):

 

 

“… But RUTHLESS men RETAIN RICHES …” (Proverbs 11:16, NKJV)

 

Yes, Strangely, these Bible Verses also describe that the “WICKED” have “NO PANGS in their DEATH” meaning they “die peacefully” and “have healthy bodies prior too”, Verses:

 

“… 3For I was envious of the boastful,

When I saw the PROSPERITY OF THE WICKED.

4For there are NO [A]PANGS IN THEIR DEATH,

But their strength is firm.

5They are NOT IN TROUBLE AS OTHER MEN,

NOR ARE THEY PLAGUED LIKE OTHER MEN.

6Therefore pride serves as their necklace;

Violence covers them like a garment.

7THEIR [B]EYES BULGE WITH ABUNDANCE;

THEY HAVE MORE THAN HEART COULD WISH. … 17Until I went into the sanctuary of God;

Then I UNDERSTOOD THEIR END.

18Surely You set them in slippery places;

YOU CAST THEM DOWN TO DESTRUCTION.

19Oh, how they are brought to desolation, as in a moment!

They are utterly CONSUMED WITH TERRORS.

” (Psalm 73:3 – 7, 17 – 19 NKJV)

 

Source:  https://biblehub.com/nkjv/psalms/73.htm

 

Note: Verses 17 – 19 describe their “end” where it is “Hell“. Can you “see” it? No one can “trick God” in any way.

 

One of the classical linguistic style of Rhetoric Speech to create a ‘Catchy Phrase’ is to “merge opposite statements”. Example:

 

“… If you don’t believe in God that’s okay because He does not believe in you either. …”

 

 

Peace to you

 

To quote from Page 1788 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, more details there if keen regarding the “Book of Wisdom” (quoted in image) and more:

 

Remember Blessed St. Melito of Sardis whom we quoted earlier (around Page 1728 onward of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ) where he was used by God to determine the Old Testament canon for CHRISTIANS where a particular book in concern which is included seems to be “Wisdom” which Protestants vehemently disagree.

 

I am “NOT” Roman Catholic but the image is and its quote is good. I mean, you only “quote Protestant Christians is it?” You have never quoted atheists to even those of other religion on “good quotes”? Sure? Example: “Cleanliness is next to Godliness” phrase is NOT found in the Bible but have you used it or believe it or don’t?

 

Also the “Roman Catholics did not create this Book of Wisdom” but it was in the “Jewish Septuagint” where they took it from meaning it is “true” independently of Roman Catholicism or the image itself (but I include the image to show ‘how to separate the fact from the added parts’). Can you “understand”?

 

 

Peace to you

 

 

I am not creating a Drama but please consider carefully unless you are right 100%

[To quote from Page 341 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

Also, as long as our speculations are “not Doctrine” but a “possibility” only which does “not” contradict any of the New Testament Commands, it is safe and any error is “human error” only because we “never claimed God told it or equivalent”. Please remember that claiming “God told me is very dangerous as even the case of Ananias just lying about keeping some money back went to Hell straight for lying to the Holy Spirit“, Verses:

“… 3But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. …” (Acts 5:3 – 5, NKJV)

 

Now, which sounds more serious, “Ananias just lying about keeping a part of money [NOT even all the money, please notice carefully] from the “sale of a land belonging to him” vs say the “Prosperity Gospel claim that even a Pastor can take “extravagant” salaries from “Church Money” even to “not doing much Charity Doctrine with Church Money by Relative Measure” to even “Prophesying that Mr. X and Ms. Y are going to be “rich” or equivalent all relating to “money” and CLAIMING the MOST BLESSED HOLY SPIRIT TOLD SO DIRECTLY TO THEM in EACH CASE. Can you “see” the “risk”? I mean if the MOST BLESSED HOLY SPIRIT TOLD SO DIRECTLY TO THEM in EACH CASE turns out to be true,Great is their Reward in Heaven’ but if “not” or even if it was “false” for “one case” just like Ananias, what does the “Probability” to become “saved” look like?

 

Statistics doesn’t fare well either in favour of them as remember all the “President Trump Prophecies” which “failed” and “many prophets of that same camp with big women pastors etc.” all claimed first that the MOST BLESSED HOLY SPIRIT TOLD SO DIRECTLY TO THEM in EACH CASE likewise?  Example: If you want to have a “woman pastor” go ahead but don’t use it as a Doctrine to shut us out who disagree especially by claiming that the MOST BLESSED HOLY SPIRIT TOLD SO DIRECTLY TO THEM that they are to be ordained which IF TRUE is OKAY but if NOT true, does it sound like a “lesser” sin than Ananias’?


Also please remember that during Watchnight Service of 2019 plenty of PROSPERITY PROPHECIES were claimed for Year 2020 BUT NONE CAME to PASS DUE TO COVID-19 (except probably for some rich who made money out of that pandemic), remember?  That’s why I am still NEUTRAL as I am NOT ready to RISK committing ANY BLASPHEMY AGAINST the MOST BLESSED HOLY SPIRIT of GOD either way. That’s why I had to leave your Church and NOT OATH to these Beliefs (included) unless if you allow me to serve without TAKING OATH to these then I will gladly will but I won’t participate in your women pastor authority but I won’t cause trouble as I AM NEUTRAL. Peace to you

 

 

 

 

 

Apostolic Command of the REAL PREACHING of the GOSPEL – REMEMBER the POOR MYSTERY as the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/pfbid02LYHh7X2WVX4YMgQCsM2XskzhhGzFBnJ48HFn74EbifWpkiS4HNXhoXkdrb3fk6tBl

 

 

 

Firstly, I am “not” Roman Catholic but Mr. Roger Federer is*. What I am highlighting is that since Catholicism has a strong #CharityDoctrine Teaching, it’s output by individuals are “Big” in Charity Doctrine.

 

*Example Link:

 

https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tennis/news/Roger_Federer/57903/roger-federer-my-children-s-birth-was-the-highlight-of-my-life-/

This is what the “Prosperity Gospel” blocks, i.e. money given to the Poor in big amounts because they do “not” see any “religious value” in it as much as “enjoying prosperity”. You see I have attended even big local Prosperity Churches and since all Churches (especially big ones) eventually reveal their “budget” in their newsletter or equivalent, you can literally see the “Relative Measure” of “Money” spent on “Charity”. Can you “see” the “evidence”?

 

Also most Church Members do “not” give beyond 10% either and anything extra they give is “only to pastors personally” because they  “assume” that ‘giving to pastors’ will merit a “greater financial blessing in return” in their lives than if they gave the “same money to Charity or even the poor”.  I once had a “Good Leader” in some regards but he kept repeating to me that “10% is God’s and the rest is mine” quite often.

 

Do you really think this is what the BIBLE TEACHES? Where is the Verse?

 

The Strange thing is that in the VERY BIBLE VERSE they are quoting for the 10% Obligation Taught by CHRIST HIMSELF, HE is actually TEACHING the #CharityDoctrine in that SAME SET OF VERSES as MORE IMPORTANT to FULFILL BOTH JUSTICE and LOVE of GOD and ALSO CHRIST INSTRUCTS the PRIESTS (“Pharisees” here in analogy) and every BELIEVER to DO IT (no special exceptions):

 

 

“… [39Then the Lord said to him,] “Now you Pharisees make the OUTSIDE OF THE CUP and DISH CLEAN, but YOUR INWARD PART is full of [k]GREED and WICKEDNESS. 40FOOLISH ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? 41But rather GIVE ALMS of [l]SUCH THINGS AS YOU HAVE; then indeed ALL THINGS ARE CLEAN TO YOU. 42“But woe to you Pharisees! For YOU TITHE mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and PASS BY JUSTICE and the LOVE of GOD These you OUGHT TO HAVE DONE, WITHOUT LEAVING THE OTHERS UNDONE. 43Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the [m]best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44Woe to you, [n]scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.” …” – The GREATEST ONE, The ONLY KING, GOD in FLESH, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:39 – 45, NKJV)

 

 

 

 

“….  6If anyone DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you abide in Me, and MY WORDS ABIDE IN YOU, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10If YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, YOU WILL ABIDE IN MY LOVE, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13GREATER LOVE HAS NO ONE THAN THIS, THAN TO LAY DOWN ONE’S LIFE FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14You are My friends IF YOU DO WHATEVER I COMMAND YOU.  …” (John 15:6 – 14, NKJV)

 

[To quote from Page 647 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook regarding the Real Good Fight of Faith for the “Rich” so by “Relative Measure” where Apostle St. Paul talks about “giving money to the poor” like this as a “must FRUIT for ETERNAL LIFE“]

 

The ‘Greatest Useless Wrangling’ (1 Timothy 6:5 – 8.) is Probably “#Prosperity Talk” (note that “Desire to be Rich” is different from the “Love of Money” as both lead to “Destruction/Perdition” according to 1 Timothy 6:9 – 10 here) while the Most Useful Doctrine for the Believing Rich to attain to “Eternal Life” is the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle (in 1 Timothy 6:17 – 19 in comparison is Taught here) as these Verses in “1 Timothy” (yet again) Reveal as the True #FightTheGoodFightofFaith Context (1 Timothy 6:12) meant in Scripture (which is only seen when these consecutive Verses are quoted in “full”):

 

“… 5[b]useless wranglings of men of CORRUPT MINDS and DESTITUTE OF THE TRUTH, who suppose that GODLINESS IS A MEANS OF GAIN. [c]FROM SUCH WITHDRAW YOURSELF. 6Now GODLINESS WITH CONTENTMENT IS GREAT GAIN. 7For we brought nothing into this world, [d]and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8And HAVING FOOD AND CLOTHING, WITH THESE WE SHALL BE CONTENT. 9But THOSE WHO DESIRE TO BE RICH fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10For the LOVE OF MONEY is a ROOT OF ALL KINDS OF EVIL, for which some have STRAYED FROM THE FAITH in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH, LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. “… 17COMMAND THOSE WHO ARE RICH in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18Let THEM DO GOOD, that they be RICH IN GOOD WORKS, READY TO GIVE, WILLING TO SHARE, 19storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that THEY MAY LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE….” (1 Timothy 6:5 – 12, 17 – 19 NKJV)

 Guess who is Preaching this SAME CONTEXT for these SAME SET OF VERSES below?

 

 

[To quote from Page 1315 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

“… 2. Wherefore He who inspired you with this thought is assuredly doing what He promised to His disciples when they were grieved, not for themselves, but for the whole human family, and were despairing of the salvation of any one, after they heard from Him that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. He gave them this marvellous and merciful reply: The things which are impossible with men are possible with God. Matthew 19:21-26 He, therefore, with whom it is possible to make even the rich enter into the kingdom of heaven, inspired you with that devout anxiety which makes you think it necessary to ask my counsel on the question how you ought to pray. For while He was yet on earth, He brought Zaccheus, Luke 19:9 though rich, into the kingdom of heaven, and, after being glorified in His resurrection and ascension, He made many who were rich to despise this present world, and made them more truly rich by extinguishing their desire for riches through His imparting to them His Holy Spirit. For how could you desire so much to pray to God if you did not trust in Him? And how could you trust in Him if you were fixing your trust in uncertain riches, and neglecting the wholesome exhortation of the apostle: Charge them that are rich in this world that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy; that they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate, laying up in store for themselves a good foundation, that they may lay hold on eternal life? 1 Timothy 6:17-19 …” – Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, who influenced virtually all of subsequent Western philosophy and Catholic theology, as well as a significant amount of Protestant theology, Approved Church Father in the First Lutheran Father’s Book of Concord, Venerated in the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church (c. 354 AD – c. 430 AD, Point 2, Chapter 1, Letter 130 (A.D. 412))

 

Roman Catholic Source: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102130.htm

 

The reason why I mention “Roman Catholic Source” is not because I am a Roman Catholic (but am a Protestant) but even your “King James Bible” was translated based on “the Original Manuscripts’ Copies” which are “preserved by the Roman Catholics. And so, if you can believe that God preserved even Scripture to their hands, then it is safe to consider even these writings as authentic likewise. Can you see it?

 

So if we Preach likewise this #CHARITYDOCTRINE in the CONTEXT of ETERNAL LIFE for RICH CHRISTIANS quoting 1 Timothy 6:17 – 19 like St. Augustine of Hippo himself does here,
we won’t go to Hell either as a “false teacher”
, right?

 

Also some Prosperity Churches also remove the poor by “rules”. Example: They do “not” allow the poor to play music in their service by putting harsh rules where I know of a man rejected by them based on these “auditions” but what they do “not” know is one of their biggest “regional cell leader” was even “this same man’s student in bass playing itself but he could play” (can you see it?). So it’s not the skill but just personal bias and manipulations that were present which cannot be seen unless one tests it. Also some prosperity Churches even demand that “you must be able to read music notes etc.” claiming that by doing so they are giving “highest quality worship” to God. So, God does NOT like the ‘lesser skilled bass players’  to ‘not so sweet voices’ to Worship Him is it? It’s obvious that the poor are automatically thrust out unless of course you can afford such expensive music courses prior. Is this CHRISTLIKE?

 

What type of “converts” are in these “Churches” if they “support all these”? Perhaps that’s why “many” will be denied on that Day as CHRIST Prophesied in Matthew 7:20 – 24 due to LAWLESSNESS where one of the GREATEST LAWLESSNESS is PARTIALITY which ALONE is enough TO MAKE EVEN A CHRISTIAN UNSAVED as Blessed Apostle St. James WARNED in James 2:9 below:

 

[To quote from Page 1635 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

Some only secretly help their “own” race or family only or equivalent and that’s “not” Charity Doctrine but ‘condemnable under injustice and partiality’ (Let God Judge, we warn ‘generally’ and let each ‘examine himself’)

 

Yes “Partiality” (Racism within to anything equivalent of Nepotism too) is NOT a small sin according to James 2:9 in a few translations below

 

King James Bible
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

New King James Version
but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

New American Standard Bible
But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators.

Source: https://biblehub.com/james/2-9.htm

 

“… [And He said to them] , “You are THOSE WHO JUSTIFY YOURSELVES before men, but GOD KNOWS YOUR HEARTS. For WHAT IS HIGHLY ESTEEMED AMONG MEN IS AN ABOMINATION IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. …”  – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 16:15, NKJV)

 

Why?

 

  1. iv) No one “KNOWS GOD” until one “knowsthe #CharityDoctrine as God Himself Taught it

(i.e. HE HIMSELF PUT this #CharityDoctrineLifestyle as the CONDITION of KNOWING HIMso how can someone even “think” that “they know Him” even when they DO NOT even HAVE A DOCTRINE on this? Are they GREATER than GOD and CHRIST WHO DEMANDED this likewise earlier in Luke 11:39 – 35? Is your loyalty to “Church” or “CHRIST/GOD as HE SAYS in these Bible Verses” quoted?)

 

“… 15“Do you become a king because you are competing in cedar? Did your father not eat and drink And DO JUSTICE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS? Then it was well for him. 16“HE PLED THE CAUSE OF THE AFFLICTED and THE POOR, then it was well. IS THAT NOT WHAT IT MEANS TO KNOW ME?” DECLARES THE LORD. 17“But your eyes and your heart Are intent only upon your own dishonest gain, And on shedding innocent blood, And on practicing oppression and extortion.” … And YOU WILL SEEK ME AND FIND ME when YOU SEARCH FOR ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART. …” (Jeremiah 22:15 – 17, 29:13, NASB)

 

Please don’t forget “‘relative measure” because ‘God Himself Measures’ for if not, He Wouldn’t have Said so as per Verses below (where it’s not the number of people affected by it or anything as the case of the poor widow’s giving may have fed few if any but yet was ‘most):

 

“… [1And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2and He saw also a CERTAIN POOR WIDOW putting in two mites.][a] 3So He said, “TRULY I say to you that this POOR widow has put in MORE THAN ALL; 4for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings [b]for God, but she OUT OF HER POVERTY PUT IN ALL THE LIVELIHOOD THAT SHE HAD.” …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 21:1 – 4, NKJV)

Blessed are the Churches and Christians who live the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle . Even your sins are covered from Judgment if you love like this (again, CHRIST HIMSELF TAUGHT THIS DIRECTLY as follows)

 

 

“… And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “LOVE will COVER a MULTITUDE OF SINS.” …”(1 Peter 4:8, NKJV)

 

 

“… Therefore I say to you, HER SINS, which are MANY, ARE FORGIVEN, for SHE LOVED MUCH. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 7:47, NKJV)

 

“… But LOVE COVERS ALL SINS. …” (Proverbs 10:12, NKJV)

 

 

This agrees with the Apostolic Decision of apart from Preaching the Gospel, it only works if they “remember the poor” which is nothing else than doing the “Charity Doctrine”, Verse:

 

“… 7But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10They [The PILLARS, APOSTLES] DESIRED ONLY that we should REMEMBER THE POOR, the very thing which I also was eager to do. …” (Galatians 2:7 – 10, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/galatians/2.htm

 

Notice the Verses above are the Bible Verses regarding where the GOSPEL PREACHING of JEWS vs GENTILES and abolishing of TORAH parts which are NOT required was discussed (in Galatians) but the #CHARITYDOCTRINE is mentioned within this most PIVOTAL APOSTOLIC AGREEMENT in SCRIPTURE ITSELF. Can you “see” it?

 

Please notice the phraseDesired Onlyregarding the #CharityDoctrineLifestyle of “REMEMBERING THE POORwhich the BLESSED APOSTLES of the LAMB themselves Teach here in the Famous “Preach the Gospel Verse” (CONTEXT) where they  DID NOT add any “give to the pastor or we (apostles) to get greater financial blessing or equivalent but just the general POOR”. Can you “really” see this APOSTOLIC COMMAND?

 

Giving to the Poor is equivalent to Giving to God, Verse:

 

“… He who has PITY ON THE POOR LENDS TO THE LORD, And He will pay back what he has given. …” (Proverbs 19:17, NKJV)

 

“… He who has a GENEROUS EYE WILL BE BLESSED, For he GIVES OF HIS BREAD TO THE POOR. …” (Proverbs 22:9, NKJV)

 

Please remember that by “asking for Heavenly Rewards”, Blessed Apostle St. Peter was NOT Corrected by Christ as “being selfish nor as something wrong in attitude” but rather CHRIST RESPONDED in PRAISE in Verses prior too because GOD LOVES HONESTY. In fact, it was not revealed at that time that CHRIST had even another surprise waiting specifically for Blessed Apostle St. Peter and his fellow Apostles namely this (which Proves HOW MUCH GOD LOVED THEM BACK especially in regards to their “free will” choice to DO HIS WILL), i.e. their NAMES are WRITTEN on the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM CITY’s FOUNDATIONS:

“… Now the WALL OF THE CITY had TWELVE FOUNDATIONS, and on them WERE THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB. …” (Revelation 21:14, NKJV)

 

[Recap from Page 2303 onward of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ]

 

Free Will cannot save you but it can determine the type of Salvation for if not, there wouldn’t even be three harvests of the Gospel namely thirtyfold, sixtyfold vs hundredfold which are “Reward” Level according to Christ in Matthew 19:29 below itself (please notice the Word “Hundredfold” carefully in Verse below to “realize” this and that this Reward occurs only in the REGENERATION (i.e. FIRST BODILY RESURRECTION) and NOT ON EARTH NOW as SOME PROSPERITY PASTORS DECEIVE YOU by TAKING YOUR MONEY and SHOWING IT OFF that they are chosen or getting that reward now, can you ‘see’ it?):

 

 

“… 27Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have LEFT ALL and FOLLOWED YOU. Therefore what shall we have?” 28So JESUS SAID TO THEM, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the REGENERATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And EVERYONE who has LEFT HOUSES or brothers or sisters or father or mother or WIFE or children or LANDS, for MY NAME’S SAKE, shall RECEIVE a HUNDREDFOLD, and INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. 30But MANY who are FIRST will be LAST, and the LAST FIRST. …” (Matthew 19:27 – 30, NKJV)

 

Because if God Worked out our “reward level” in Heaven, it would be nothing short of Perfect or everybody gets “Hundredfold” Reward among Christians even. Since this is not the case, Christ’s Own Words above Reveal that this “Reward” of “Hundredfold” is by “Free Will (Choice)” of doing any of the listed things aboveas it is Written“. So the absence of Free Will Doctrine is simple namely, it can lead to “loss” of “rewards” among Christians if they are not careful.

 

Peace to you

 

 

 

It is well known also that BLESSED TERTULLIAN did NOT BELIEVE in WOMAN PASTORS either (as shown in example Page 2365 earlier) and in fact WARNED STRICTLY AGAINST it (why does number of conversions matter since even with “women pastors” they cannot convert more than the “Roman Catholics + Orthodox” in terms of numbers even till today, please see example statistics in Page 1001 earlier where these CONVERSION PRAYERS to VIRGIN MARY seems MORE ANSWERED? They CANNOT ask us BACK THE SAME QUESTION because we DO NOT believe in NUMBER OF CONVERSIONS but DEGREE OF ACCURACY as Discussed say in Pages 2431 – 2433 or 1796, 657, and most detailed in 648 to 653 earlier.)

So, it’s not just BLESSED TERTULLIAN vs Ms Kathryn Kuhlman or even Ms Choo Thomas (Ms Choo Nam) but also

How about BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER the FIRST PROTESTANT vs Ms Kathryn Kuhlman or even Ms Choo Thomas (Ms Choo Nam) or even more accurately

How about ALL OF FIRST CHRISTIANITY till the 19th Century including PROTESTANTS vs Ms Kathryn Kuhlman or even Ms Choo Thomas (Ms Choo Nam) on THESE TOPICS? PROVEN in PAGES NEXT.

 

 

BLESSED TERTULLIAN did NOT BELIEVE in PROSPERITY GOSPEL either which just like women pastors DID NOT EXIST until the 19th Century:

 

“…Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, or seed faith)[A] is a religious belief among some Protestant Christians that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one’s material wealth.[1] Material and especially financial success is seen as a sign of divine favor. Prosperity theology has been criticized by leaders from various Christian denominations, including within some Pentecostal and charismatic movements, who maintain that it is irresponsible, promotes idolatry, and is contrary to the Bible.[2] Secular as well as some Christian observers have also criticized prosperity theology as exploitative of the poor. The practices of some preachers have attracted scandal and some have been charged with financial fraud. It was during the Healing Revivals of the 1950s that prosperity theology first came to prominence in the United States, although commentators have linked the origins of its theology to the New Thought movement which began in the 19th century. The prosperity teaching later figured prominently in the Word of Faith movement and 1980s televangelism. In the 1990s and 2000s, it was adopted by influential leaders in the Pentecostal movement and charismatic movement in the United States and has spread throughout the world. Prominent leaders in the development of prosperity theology include Benny HinnE. W. Kenyon,[4] Oral Roberts,[5] A. A. Allen,[6] Robert Tilton,[7] T. L. Osborn,[8] Joel OsteenCreflo Dollar,[9] Kenneth Copeland,[10] Reverend Ike,[11] and Kenneth Hagin.[12]  …”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

 

In short, all the earliest Christians never knew of such a “Will of God” called “Prosperity Gospel”.

 

Can you “see” it?

 

In contrast, the CHARITY DOCTRINE to NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY is found abundantly in First Christianity quotes and even among the DOCTORS of the CHURCH before 700 AD as I have shown in this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

 

 

 

 

How about BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER the FIRST PROTESTANT vs Ms Kathryn Kuhlman or even Ms Choo Thomas (Ms Choo Nam) regarding these:

 

  1. BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER believed in POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE only while Ms Kathryn Kuhlman or even Ms Choo Thomas (Ms Choo Nam) claimed that the HOLY SPIRIT/SPIRIT of PROPHECY TAUGHT them that there is PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE

 

  1. BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER believed that the HOLY SPIRIT NEVER ALLOWED WOMEN to be PASTORS while Ms Kathryn Kuhlman or even Ms Choo Thomas (Ms Choo Nam) claimed that the “Holy Spirit” said “can have women pastors now”.

 

iii. Strangely BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER even allowed considering NON-ELECT SALVATION/UNIVERSALISM as a POSSIBILITY as I have detailed in Page 1804 onward in this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook.

 

If these DIFFERENCES are NOT a BIG DEAL, then why AM I STILL BANNED from SERVING AT CHURCH if I believe the same as BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER, BLESSED TERTULLIAN and practically every CHURCH FATHER and CHRISTIAN before the 19th Century in regards to these TOPICS/DOCTRINAL POINTS? Also you don’t want to “hire”  us into your homeschool or ministries based on this reason, then we will be gladly persecuted for righteousness’ sake (Matthew 5:10 – 12) for all of First Christianity till 19th Century is with us on this (even some modern Christians too) but don’t complain if the unbelievers discriminate you likewise in the secular world because you did the same to “Christians like us even” where we never treated you like this in “Job Context” as I teach Math even those who believe in Women Pastors without discrimination. I mean if these same CHURCH FATHERS to FIRST CHRISTIANS till the 19th Century were alive today and taught the same as us, you would have discriminated them likewise, can you see it? Recap:

 

 

Regarding quotes on POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE, NO WOMEN PASTOR ALLOWED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT or even ALLOWING NON-ELECT SALVATION/UNIVERSALISM as a POSSIBILITY please find it quoted next again from previous pages proving WE CAN CONTEMPLATE LIKEWISE since BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER cannot be unsaved, right? So since “… Obedience is better than Sacrifice …” (1 Samuel 15:22), we never speculated beyond what was allowed by him even:

1) BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER quote on POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE

 

[From Pages 1816 and 1817 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

is MARTIN LUTHER the FIRST SPIRIT LED PROTESTANT himself did NOT believe in it NOR CONSIDER PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE as ANY POSSIBILITY as he BELIEVED ONLY in POST -TRIBULATION RAPTURE only here (can you “see” it?):

“… Paul writes these words to comfort Christians who were troubled about what would take place at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. Shall all rise together? Shall those LIVING ON THE EARTH at the last day meet Christ before others? These and like thoughts worried them. Here Paul answers them by saying that Christ would take ALL HIS BELIEVERS TO HIMSELF at THE SAME TIME, …” – Blessed Martin Luther, Reformation Founder, First Champion of the Protestant Faith (Commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4)

Source:

https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/luther/living_and_dead_when_christ_returns.htm

* This epistle text you will find richly expounded in “The Explanation of Certain Epistles,” which appeared on special occasions. [The Miscellaneous Sermons of the Year 1532.

 

Yes, Martin Luther teaches only ‘one gathering of the elect at the same time which occurs during the First Resurrection of the Dead’ and there’s no CHRISTIAN left behind and saved at the end of the 7 year Antichrist Period as the PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE POSITION CLAIMS.

 

Please remember that the PASTORAL SEAT and MINISTRY you have today was obtained through GOD WORKING through these same CHURCH FATHERS to FIRST CHRISTIANS till the 19th Century who taught the same as us in these Topics/Doctrine, and NOT the other way around but today you discriminate us, an irony isn’t it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER quote on NO WOMEN PASTOR ALLOWED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

[From Pages 1805 and 1807 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

“… It is, however, true that the Holy Spirit has excepted women, children, and incompetent people from this function, but chooses (except in emergencies) only competent males to fill this office, as one reads here and there in the epistles of St. Paul that a bishop must be pious, able to teach, and the husband of one wife – and in 1 Corinthians 14:34 he says, ‘The women should keep silence in the churches’. In summary, it must be a competent and chosen man. Children, women, and other persons are not qualified for this office, even though they are able to hear God’s word, to receive baptism, the sacrament, absolution, and are also true, holy Christians, as St. Peter says …” – Blessed Martin Luther, Reformation Founder, First Champion of the Protestant Faith (1 Pet 3:7 – Luther’s Works, American Edition 41:154, 155).

This is not a one off quote by Blessed Martin Luther as more is quoted on 1805 and 1807 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook where he repeated it as “important”.

 

Personally I stay neutral toward those who do this Modern Way but I do NOT practice it letting God Decide their way if right or wrong to reward or judge accordingly by His Decision because I prefer to choose the Safe Route Scripturally which already allowed the “no women pastors” way regardless, example Verses:

“… 10but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12And I DO NOT PERMIT A WOMAN TO TEACH OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE. …” (1 Timothy 2:10 – 12, NKJV)

3) BLESSED MARTIN LUTHER quote on ALLOWING NON-ELECT SALVATION/UNIVERSALISM as a POSSIBILITY

 

[From Pages 2411 or 992 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook]

 

Please note that even Blessed Martin Luther, the First Protestant Champion of Faith did “not” seeBlessed Origen of Alexandria” as a ‘heretic’ even if the former believed in Eternal Hell while the latter in Universalism as per example quote  from Page 992 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook ‘[more details there] ‘ïn Martin Luther’s own words” as follows:

 

“… For the opinion that GOD COULD NOT HAVE CREATED MAN to be REJECTED and CAST AWAY into ETERNAL TORMENT IS HELD AMONG US ALSO, as it was at all times by some of the most renowned people, such as Origen and his kind.  …” – Blessed Martin Luther, The First Champion of the Protestant Faith, (letter to “Hans von Rechenberg“)

Source (Page 14):

https://www.amazon.com/Larger-Hope-Universal-Reformation-Nineteenth/dp/1498200400

 

 

 

 

Mystery of the Morning Star – Is believing enough to attain to it?

 

Source Post:

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.ramachandran/posts/pfbid024KM33v99AdJLowjZAp1n3Vm2LkMmCGJUNPDDsAAKAzLM3PDwSDHDq4w3yyGihvjFl

 

Firstly, What did Lord Jesus Christ Say regarding the “Morning Star”?

 

Why? because we can have our own “denominational theology” but if it did NOT include WHAT CHRIST SAID in FULL, there is a RISK we may NOT attain to it.

 

CHRIST Requires these as Conditions to attain to the “Morning Star when He addressed the “Church at Thyatira” meaning it was Written to “believers only” (“Faith” as a must condition first but not all those in faith seem to approved to get this “Morning Star” Promise as He Reveals in His Own Words below, in “full”):

 

“… 18“And to the [h]angel of the CHURCH IN THYATIRA write, ‘These things SAYS the SON OF GOD, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19“I know YOUR WORKS, LOVE, [i]SERVICE, FAITH, and your [j]PATIENCE; and as for YOUR WORKS, THE LAST ARE MORE THAN THE FIRST. 20Nevertheless I have [k]a FEW THINGS AGAINST YOU, because you allow [l]that WOMAN JEZEBEL, who CALLS HERSELF a PROPHETESS, [m]to teach and seduce MY SERVANTS TO COMMIT SEXUAL IMMORALITY and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21And I gave her time to [n]REPENT of her sexual immorality, and she did NOT REPENT. 22Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they REPENT of [o]their deeds. 23I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH, and ALL THE CHURCHES SHALL KNOW that I am He who searches[p] the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS. 24“Now to you I say, [q]and TO THE REST IN THYATIRA, as many as DO NOT HAVE THIS DOCTRINE, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I [r]will put on you NO OTHER BURDEN. 25But hold fast what you have till I come. 26And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I WILL GIVE POWER OVER THE NATIONS— 27‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father; 28and I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR. 29“He who has an ear, let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES.” ’ …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 2:18 – 29, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/2.htm

 

Comments:

 

1) CHRIST Says that to ATTAIN to the “Morning Star” He is “not” looking for “simple faith” nor for “faith alonebut a “faith with all these WORKS too” and this privilege was only addressed to “Churches” (or “Christians only”):

 

“… 19“I know YOUR WORKS, LOVE, [i]SERVICE, FAITH, and your [j]PATIENCE; and as for YOUR WORKS, THE LAST ARE MORE THAN THE FIRST.26And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I WILL GIVE POWER OVER THE NATIONS28and I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR. 29“He who has an ear, let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ

 

2) CHRIST’s Requirements for Christians Chosen for the “Morning Star” are

 

  1. WORKS
  2. LOVE

iii. SERVICE

  1. FAITH
  2. PATIENCE
  3. Even MORE WORKS by “Relative Measure” as HE Repeats Mysteriously above this phrase: “… and as for YOUR WORKS, THE LAST ARE MORE THAN THE FIRST…”

 

Please notice that “Faithis mentioned as No. 4 by CHRIST HIMSELF and HE did NOT mention “Faith Alone” NOR was Impressed by it “alone”.

 

3) CHRIST’s Requirements for Christians Chosen for the “Morning Starto have the “CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE” is clear in HIS OWN WORDS above because

 

#CharityDoctrineLifestyle = WORKS of LOVE and SERVICE (inclusive of it, but not limited to it necessarily) – can you see it? Example Verse using say the EXACT KOINE GREEK WORD Translated as “SERVICE” above in this CONTEXT, compare:

 

“… 19“I know YOUR WORKS, LOVE, [i]SERVICE [1248 [e] diakonian διακονίαν], FAITH, and your [j]PATIENCE; and as for YOUR WORKS, THE LAST ARE MORE THAN THE FIRST  …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 2:19, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/revelation/2-19.htm

 

“… 27And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to SEND RELIEF [1248 [e] diakonian διακονίαν] to the brethren dwelling in Judea.  30This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. …” (Acts 11:27 – 29, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/acts/11-29.htm

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/acts/11.htm

 

Relative Measure” word for this #CharityDoctrine part in last Verse above: “…  each according to his ability …” in “… each according to his ability, determined to SEND RELIEF [1248 [e] diakonian διακονίαν] to the brethren dwelling in Judea. …”.

 

Question to Ponder: If your Church only focuses on “singing songs, worship, homeschool ministry for ONLY THOSE WHO CAN PAY, or Bible Courses for ONLY THOSE WHO CAN PAY or for ONLY THOSE WHO ARE MEMBERS of YOUR CHURCH, with NO FREE SHARING OPEN to the PUBLIC (either ONLINE or OFFLINE) even in regards to FREE TUITION or SPONSORED by CHURCH to the POOR”, do you think that the SAME LORD JESUS CHRIST here as strict as He is in Revelation 2 earlier would endorse it?

 

I speak of “FREE TUITION or SPONSORED by CHURCH to the POOR” because if you can muster MONEY for PAID HOMESCHOOL for the RICH in the NAME of EVANGELISM, doesn’t it seem BIBLICAL that GOD WILL ASK this too for the POOR likewise? What is there to not being able to afford when it’s only marker pen, a few hours in a room at Church or even to pay a teacher to do it with all those PROFITS from the RICH? GOD will ASK THIS because YOU USED HIS NAME to CREATE a HOMESCHOOL, can you see it?

 

 

I mean if you created homeschool via secular means maybe the money is all yours but since these Homeschools are created in LORD JESUS CHRIST’s NAME, everything that is DONE IN HIS NAME is REQUIRED to be ALSO to be SHARED to the POOR by RELATIVE MEASURE as so many Verses Testify, can you see it? In Fact, if using HIS NAME, HE ACTUALLY REQUIRES it to be GIVEN FOR FREE (as “Perfection” but since we are NOT perfect, at least some PROFIT earned by USING HIS NAME MUST GO for ALL THESE as SOME CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ACTUALLY DO THAT which is GREAT!):

 

“…  FREELY YOU HAVE RECEIVED, FREELY GIVE. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:8, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-8.htm

 

Regarding those who think that the “poor” don’t deserve to be “included” because this “hard work money is only for “their children” (ehem ehem, after abusing ‘other poor’ at workplace to earn more or earning salary by racial bias differences even)” , please remember that these “same Judgment (of your words)back to you just “condemned you” likewise since CHRIST REQUIRED this GIVE to CHARITY as the TRANSACTION for “TREASURE in HEAVENS LEVEL” as “part of SEEK HIS KINGDOM too” in Verses below meaning if they DID NOT WORK HARD at GIVING TO CHARITY (by “Relative Measure” likewise, then it is FAIR if we (including me) DO NOT INHERIT HEAVEN at all or INHERIT a SMALL PORTION of it LIKEWISE, can you “really see” it?)CHRIST Teaches this below plainly “not” me):

 

“…  31“But SEEK HIS KINGDOM, and THESE THINGS will be ADDED TO YOU. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33“SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS and GIVE TO CHARITY; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an UNFAILING TREASURE IN HEAVEN, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For WHERE YOUR TREASURE IS, THERE YOUR HEART WILL BE ALSO. 35“Be dressed in readiness, and KEEP YOUR LAMPS LIT. …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 12:31 – 35, NASB)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nasb_/luke/12.htm

 

 

 

4) What did CHRIST WARN against the CHURCH here which was so close to attaining to the MORNING STAR?

 

“… I have [k]a FEW THINGS AGAINST YOU, because you allow [l]that WOMAN JEZEBEL, who CALLS HERSELF a PROPHETESS… 23I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH, and ALL THE CHURCHES SHALL KNOW that I am He who searches[p] the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS.. 24“Now to you I say, [q]and TO THE REST IN THYATIRA, as many as DO NOT HAVE THIS DOCTRINE, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I [r]will put on you NO OTHER BURDEN…..” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ

 

Regarding who is the JEZEBEL and not, it’s best not to comment but the #SafeRouteScripturally here is to OBEY HIS COMMANDS here rather than indulge in what “some prophetess claim” here and there of which CHRIST does NOT point as any reward either even if they are right in these Verses itself nor does He Give a comparison to any ‘real prophetess’ in this Church either meaning these are not important at all even if right and if wrong can lead to hell straight as He Warned here.

 

Please notice also that the CHILDREN of JEZEBEL are NOT unbelievers but those CHRISTIANS who HAD FAITH as in the start HE CALLS all of them as a whole as the “… CHURCH IN THYATIRA …” (including JEZEBEL’s CHILDREN inside this Church) but here CHRIST Rejects them and also mentions this phrase “… TO THE REST IN THYATIRA, …” distinguishing these CHRISTIANS into TWO CLASSES namely “those who approve JEZEBEL” vs “those who do NOT approve JEZEBEL”. Can you see it? This Proves “Conditional Election” for the “Morning Star” Elect Salvation Context. Whether these FALLEN CHRISTIANS can be saved after that “great tribulation” only GOD KNOWS and having “faith alone” did NOT merit them the “Morning Star” NOR the escape of PUNISHMENT for those FALLEN CHRISTIANS here. Can you see it? Christ does “not” call them “unbelievers” but part of the “Church at THYATIRA ” split to two classes.

 

As the last line SAYS “… hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES …” which included even those who FOLLOWED AFTER JEZEBEL and JEZEBEL herself as CHRIST CALLS BOTH to REPENT meaning they are still part of “His CHURCH” but rejected if they do NOT repent in HIS OWN WORDS here as “… you allow [l]that WOMAN JEZEBEL, who CALLS HERSELF a PROPHETESS, [m]to teach and seduce MY SERVANTS TO COMMIT SEXUAL IMMORALITY and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21And I gave her time to [n]REPENT of her sexual immorality, and she did NOT REPENT. 22Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they REPENT of [o]their deeds. 23I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH, and ALL THE CHURCHES SHALL KNOW that I am He who searches[p] the minds and hearts. …”.

5) What is the “Morning Star” Promise?

 

The most Probable meaning by the earliest Fathers of the Church is that it refers to either the FIRST RESURRECTION and/or the LEVEL of REWARD and FINAL RESURRECTION BODY GLORY  in the FIRST RESURRECTION as per example quotes below:

 

“… As I also have received of my Father: and I will give him the morning star.

 

 Origen

 

Or do we not read that Isaiah says of one of them, ‘How did Lucifer fall, the one who rose in the morning?’ That Lucifer, without a doubt, had a throne in the heavens until he became a fugitive angel. If I should conquer him and set him under my feet, if I should deserve that the Lord Jesus ‘crush Satan under my feet,‘ I shall deserve as a consequence to receive the place of Lucifer in heaven. [Hom. on Joshua 1.6]

_____________________________________________________________

 

St. Victorinus

 

And I will give him the morning star. To wit, the first resurrection. He promised the morning star, which drives away the night, and announces the light, that is, the beginning of day.

____________________________________________________________

 

Tyconius

 

It is appropriate that we understand the morning star to represent both Christ and the 2nd resurrection, because His appearance scatters the darkness of error and the worldly shadows of the night are put to flight by the approaching resurrection. For as this star brings an end to the night, so also does it mark the beginning of the day.

__________________________________________________________

 

 

Oecumenius

 

The prophet says of the Assyrian, that is, Satan, “How did the morning star which rises early in the morning fall from heaven?(Is. 14:12)” So he now calls him the morning star: he says, “I will make Satan subject to my servants.” This is similar to what was said by the apostle: “God will soon crush Satan under your feet,(Rom. 16:20)” and “You will trample the lion and the serpent underfoot.(Ps. 90:13)

_____________________________________________________________

 

St. Andrew of Caesarea

 

Morning star or, it says, the one about whom Isaiah was saying, How did he fall from heaven, the bright rising morning star?,(Is 14:12-15) whom he promised he will hand over to be crushed under the feet of the saints (Rom 12:20). Or it is the One who brings light, as has been said by the blessed Peter, dawning in the hearts of the faithful,(2Pt 1:19) the well-known illumination of Christ. Also John the Baptist and Elijah the Tishbite are designated light bearers. For the one, John is discerned as the Forerunner of the first rising of the Sun of Righteousness, and the other is the Forerunner of the second. With them, the victors over the devil will have their part, we believe. It is not surprising that we have taken this as referring to two things totally contradictory to each other. For we learn from the divine Scriptures that the lion of Judah is the Christ,(Gn 49:9-10) and the lion from Bashan is the Antichrist.(Dt 33:22) According to what is meant, it is this or the other. It the morning star also implies both the dawn of the future day, by which the darkness of the present life will be covered, and also its messenger bringing the good news of this dawn.

For it the dawn of the future day goes before the Sun of Righteousness, appearing to the saints and scattering the gloom of the present life, by whose rays may we also be illuminated by the good will of the Father with the All-Holy Spirit, to whom glory belongs unto the ages. Amen.

__________________________________________________________

 

Apringius of Beja

 

And I will give him the morning star, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, whom evening never overtakes, but who is eternal light, and who is Himself always in light. Or, another interpretation: He promises the morning star, namely, the first resurrection; the resurrection is the morning star which causes night to flee and announces the light.

_____________________________________________________________

St. Bede

 

star. Christ is “the morning star,” Who promises and reveals to the saints the eternal light of life, when the night of the world is past.

____________________________________________________________

 

Bulus al-Bushi

 

His saying “Even as I received from the Fathersignifies that by becoming incarnate He became the first born and the source of all the blessings. This is similar to what the apostle says. His statement “I shall give him the star which rises in the morning” means the knowledge that removes from us the darkness of error, a knowledge which precedes the rising of holiness in our hearts.

____________________________________________________________

 

Joannes Gagneus

By the morning star we may understand either Christ, or the clear knowledge of divine things, which Peter calls the day-star: ‘Whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day- dawn and the day-star arise in your heart,’ 2 Peter 1: 19.

 

____________________________________________________________

 

Fr. Robert Witham

 

To every such faithful servant, I will give the morning star, another expression to signify eternal light, or eternal happiness. (Witham)

 

…”

Source:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/revelation/catena-commentary-on-revelation/chapter-2/2-1/2-2/2-3/2-4/2/2-6/2-7/2-8/2-9/2-10/2-11/2-12/2-13/2-14/2-15/2-16/2-17/2-18/2-19/2-20/2-21/2-22/2-23/2-24/2-25/2-26/2-27/2-28

Why is First Christianity Quotes regarding “Prophecy Context” important?

 

“… knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/2_peter/1.htm

 

In Light of this Definitions that “Morning Star” Promise has to do with the “First Resurrection Glory and Inheritance”, that’s why CHRIST HIMSELF is the BRIGHT MORNING STAR and HIS BRIDE will be LIKE HIM as HE ONLY SHARES HIS FLESH (being ONE FLESH) with them as these Verses Beautifully Declare:

 

“… just as CHRIST also LOVED the CHURCH and gave Himself for her, 26that He might [g]SANCTIFY and cleanse her with the washing of water BY THE WORD, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. … and the TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 32This is a GREAT MYSTERY, but I speak CONCERNING CHRIST AND THE CHURCH …” (Ephesians 5:25 – 27, 31 – 32, NKJV)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/ephesians/5.htm

 

“… 16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star… And the SPIRIT and the BRIDE say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And LET HIM WHO THIRSTS COME. Whoever desires, let him TAKE THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY.  …” (Revelation 22:16 – 17, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/22.htm

 

“… Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has NOT YET BEEN REVEALED WHAT WE SHALL BE, but we know that WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS. …” (1 John 3:2, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/1_john/3-2.htm

 

More First Christianity Quotes regarding this aspect was discussed say in Pages 2100 and 2101 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook which we quote here (more details in related pages there):

 

“… Those who are WISE shall shine Like the BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT, And THOSE WHO TURN MANY to RIGHTEOUSNESS Like the STARS forever and ever. 4“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” …” (Daniel 12:3 – 4, NKJV based on the Masoretic Text)

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/daniel/12.htm

 

“…  3And the WISE SHALL SHINE as the BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT, and SOME OF THE MANY RIGHTEOUS as the STARS FOR EVER and EVER. 4And thou, Daniel, close the words, and seal the book to the time of the end; until many are taught, and knowledge is increased. …” (Daniel 12:3 – 4, Brenton Septuagint Translation, based on the Septuagint or LXX) Source: https://biblehub.com/sep/daniel/12.htm

 

I repeat for focus:

 

“…  And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, SOME to EVERLASTING LIFE, SOME to SHAME and EVERLASTING CONTEMPT. Those who are WISE shall shine Like the BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT, And THOSE WHO TURN MANY to RIGHTEOUSNESS Like the STARS forever and ever. 4“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. …” (Daniel 12:2 – 4, NKJV)

 

Please notice carefully the following Comments:

 

  1. Verse 2 Describes this event to happen during the “Second Resurrection” (Judgment Day Timeline) which is 1000 after the Christian Resurrection meaning the righteous who rise simultaneously with the wicked may “not” be Christians. The Christians are described in Verse 3 as two types namely the “Wise” and the “turn many to righteousness types” who SHINE with HEAVENLY light as per the “HEAVENS” and “STARS” respectively (a clear distinction made in Scripture). This SHINE like HEAVENS and/or STARS [i.e. as these are “Heavenly” Bodies in Analogy] and thus can be the CHANGE from HUMAN FORM to ANGELIC FORM as St. Methodius’ quote (possibly from St. Justin Martyr actually) is being described here as discussed in Pages 2055 to 2091 earlier of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook with other details.
  2. Convert Many (“Win souls”)

 

‘… Shine like the STARS …’ Levels

 

  1. Those who are WISE (Theologically more accurate) = Original Word = Insight (Context Knowledge)

 

‘… Shine like the FIRMAMENTS (HEAVENS*) …’

 

*Note: The Word “Firmament” refers to the “HEAVENS or FOUNDATION OF HEAVENS” which is WAY BRIGHTER than the STARS’ Glory where all these are in the Context of “Celestial (Heavenly) Glory referring to the Final Resurrection Body of Christians’ as Revealed in 1 Corinthians 15:39 – 42 clearly as ‘it is Written’ as related details are discussed in Page 2061 earlier.

 

  1. Please also notice carefully that the Septuagint Reads slightly differently for Daniel 12:3 – 4 (and it is well documented too that the Septuagint has been more accurate than the Masoretic based on New Testament Quotations itself*) where only “some of the righteous” shine like “stars” (not all the righteous) implying that the “shine like stars ones” (are Christians having Celestial/Heavenly Resurrection Body, due to sharing One Flesh with Lord Jesus Christ being His Bride/Wife Allegorically) while in contrast the “righteous that do NOT shine like stars” (could refer to the Terrestrial/Earthly Resurrection bodies of the saved non-Christians from among the “nations who are saved” as discussed in many pages of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook).

 

This is “not” my biased opinion as even this First Christianity Quote Explains this position clearly commenting on Daniel 12:3 likewise from Pages 1261 to 1263 or even more details around Page 2157 too respectively since “… NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV), right?:

 

 

“… Verses 1-3. “But at that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who stands for the children of thy people, and a time shall come such as never occurred from the time that nations began to exist even unto that time. And at that time shall thy people be saved, even everyone who shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, that they may behold it always. But THOSE WHO ARE INSTRUCTED SHALL SHINE AS THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT; and they that INSTRUCT MANY AS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, AS THE STARS FOR ALL ETERNITY.” Up until this point Porphyry somehow managed to maintain his position and impose upon the credulity of the naive [reading imperitis for imperitus] among our adherents as well as the poorly educated among his own. But what can he say of this chapter, in which is described the resurrection of the dead, with one group being revived for eternal life and the other group for eternal disgrace? He CANNOT EVEN SPECIFY WHO THE PEOPLE were under Antiochus WHO SHONE LIKE THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT, AND THOSE OTHERS WHO SHONE LIKE THE STARS FOR ALL ETERNITY. … BUT THE TEACHERS SHALL RESEMBLE THE VERY HEAVENS, and THOSE WHO HAVE INSTRUCTED OTHERS SHALL BE COMPARED TO THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE STARS. For it is not enough to know wisdom unless one also instructs others; and the tongue of instruction which remains silent and edifies no one else can receive no reward for labor accomplished. This passage is expressed by Theodo-tion and the Vulgate edition [of the Septuagint] in the following |147 fashion: “And those who understand shall shine forth like the radiance of the firmament, and many of the righteous like the stars forever and ever.” MANY PEOPLE OFTEN ASK whether a LEARNED SAINT AND AN ORDINARY SAINT shall both enjoy the SAME REWARD AND ONE AND THE SAME DWELLING-PLACE IN HEAVEN. Well then, the statement is made here, according to Theodotion’s rendering, that THE LEARNED WILL RESEMBLE THE VERY HEAVENS, whereas THE RIGHTEOUS WHO ARE WITHOUT LEARNING are ONLY COMPARED TO THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE STARS. And so the difference between LEARNED GODLINESS and MERE GODLY RUSTICITY SHALL BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HEAVEN AND THE STARS. …” – Blessed St. Jerome of the Vulgate, Second Latin Doctor of the Church who did the First Official Translation of the Bible out of Its Original Languages into Latin, Priest, Confessor, Secretary to Pope Damasus I (c. 347 AD – c. 420 AD, Commentary of Daniel 12:3)

Source: https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_daniel_02_text.htm

Here’s a strange First Christianity Quote which actually Taught both the SALVATION from HELL type of QUOTE whilst also TEACHING DANIEL 12:3’s type of WISDOM which SHINES like the HEAVENS as OPPOSED to the LESSER WISDOM of CONVERSIONS shining like the STARS only in COMPARISON even in the CONTEXT of the #CHARITYDOCTRINE Practice too as IMPORTANT for GREATER GLORY, to quote:

 

“… The prophet Joel also predicted this phenomenon so that one cannot doubt the fulfillment of a fact attested by several witnesses. “And the sun,” he says, “will be changed into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible DAY of the LORD’s COMING.” (Joel 2:31) . As far as the literal meaning of these words indicates, they seem to be more fitting for the SECOND ADVENT, for then the Lord will manifest himself publicly to ALL MEN, to the testimony of Scripture: “Then every eye will see him, and all the tribes of the earth and those who have crucified him will strike their breast.” (Rev. 1:7) … So the prophet foretold that the Savior would take care of their infirmities, and this prophecy is fulfilled in his time, as we see in the Gospel: “He really has borne our torpor, of our sufferings.” (Isa. 1:4) All these predictions have received their consummation and fulfillment in the Savior’s passion, and thus the SALVATION of the HUMAN RACE has been done in a true way for those who were on EARTH or in HELL, for the prophecy of Zachariah embraces both of them at once. On earth, men have been freed from the oppression of their enemies by the intervention of the mercy of God, and in HELL THEY were DELIVERED from the SORROWS THEY ENDURED. Indeed, all those who hoped in Christ who had been Promised to them awaited the coming of Him Who was to triumph over DEATH and DELIVER THEM from HELL. This is why Zechariah says: “To fulfill His mercies toward our fathers.” (Luke 1:72) But if it is understood that THIS SALVATION must also come in the SECOND ADVENT, t, but it is especially in the second that the sun will be covered with darkness and the moon will not give its light, how to admit that the light of the sun and the moon will shine more brightly in the day when God will visit his people, since, in one as in the other time when the deliverance of this people begins and ends, we read that not only the light of the sun and the moon will be weakened, but that these stars will be completely obscured. We must therefore understand that the SUN and THE MOON represent the saints here, just as in another place they are compared to the STARS of HEAVEN [Daniel 12:3], to the testimony of the Apostle St. Paul, who declares that the saints shine in this world like the stars of the faith. [Philippians 2:15] We also read in the Gospel that the righteous will shine like the sun (Matt. 13:43), because THE LORD COMPARES GOOD WORKS TO LIGHT. “May your light,” he says, “shine before men, so that when you see your good works they will glorify your Father, who is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:16) Therefore those who have abandoned all their goods to follow the Lord, owe to their justice and holiness, to be compared to the sun and the moon seven times brighter. “There is no one,” says the Savior, “who has left either his house, or his wife, or his children, or his fields, which has received seven times as much in this world.” (Luke 18:29) Now those who receive here seven times as much honor will be in the other life seven times brighter than the rest, that is, their resurrection will be like the sun and the moon and the resurrection of others like the stars. The glory of the saints who receives here seven times of brilliance, will receive seven times more in the resurrection, that is to say, that he who has here below the brightness of the moon will receive in the other life the brightness of the sun, and the one here below as bright as the sun will shine seven times brighter in the other life. The prophet Isaiah therefore rightly uses the comparison of the sun and the moon to predict the increase of the glory of the saints. If indeed our Lord is called the sun of righteousness, and the saints must be like him, to the testimony of the apostle St. John: “When he appears, we shall be like him.” (1 Jn. 3:2) The prophet is right in comparing the saints with the sun, but pointing out that the brightness of the sun is seven times greater than that of the moon. When he predicts that the light of the moon will have the same brightness as that of the sun, but that the sunlight will be seven times brighter, he wants us to understand that the light of the moon will become seven times brighter to match that of the sun, that is, the moon will be as bright as the sun is now. Although the application of this comparison of the stars to the saints is in the opposite direction, yet it brings out in part the increase of their glory, that is to say, after the increase of the light of the sun and the moon, and the distance that will exist between one saint and another after they have received their reward will be as great as that which separates them in the present life. … ” – Blessed Ambrosiaster (literally in Latin: “would-be Ambrose”), Roman Clergy active at Rome during the reign of Pope Damasus (c.366 AD – c. 384 AD, Written c. 366 – c. 384, Reply to Question 105, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke)

Source:

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/luke-commentary/ambrosiaster-questions-and-answers-on-the-gospel-of-luke

6) Add to your Faith [to quote from Page 55 of the #IgnoredChristianDoctrine Book]

 

“… According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the KNOWLEDGE OF HIM  that hath CALLED US TO GLORY AND VIRTUE: (4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (5) And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH VIRTUE; and TO VIRTUE KNOWLEDGE; (6) And TO KNOWLEDGE TEMPERANCE; and TO TEMPERANCE PATIENCE; and TO PATIENCE GODLINESS; (7) And TO GODLINESS BROTHERLY KINDNESS; and TO BROTHERLY KINDNESS CHARITY [Love]. 8For IF THESE THINGS ARE YOURS AND ABOUND, you will BE NEITHER [e]BARREN NOR UNFRUITFUL in the KNOWLEDGE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST . 9For HE WHO LACKS THESE THINGS IS SHORT SIGHTED, EVEN TO BLINDNESS, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10Therefore, brethren, BE EVEN MORE DILLGENT TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE, FOR IF YOU DO THESE THINGS YOU WILL NEVER STUMBLE; 11FOR SO AN ENTRANCE WILL BE SUPPLIED TO YOU ABUNDANTLY into the EVERLASTING KINGDOM of OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST… 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the DAY STAR [“Morning Star”] ARISE IN YOUR HEARTS: 20Knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY OF THE SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION . 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost….” (2 Peter 1:3-11, 19 – 21, KJV )

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/kjv/2_peter/1.htm

 

Please notice how Blessed Apostle St. Peter himself Teaches in the CONTEXT of “… and the DAY STAR [“Morning Star”] ARISE IN YOUR HEARTS …:” above that such a FAITH will comprise of two major elements namely inclusive of the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE of GOOD WORKS of LOVE & BROTHERLY KINDNESS to keeping with the RULE that “NO PROPHECY OF THE SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION” as it is Written here.

 

Can you “see” it?

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion – “Will of Godto Enter Heaven

 

This is the “Will of God in CHRIST’s OWN WORDS to ENTER the KINGDOM of HEAVEN, please compare:

 

“… 14Because NARROW is the gate and DIFFICULT is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW WHO FIND IT.   … 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT IS CUT DOWN and THROWN INTO THE FIRE. 20Therefore BY THEIR FRUITS you will know them. 21“NOT EVERYONE who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22MANY will say to Me IN THAT DAY, ‘Lord, Lord, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN YOUR NAME, CAST OUT DEMONS IN YOUR NAME, and DONE MANY WONDERS IN YOUR NAME?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’ 24“Therefore whoever HEARS THESE SAYINGS OF MINE, and DOES THEM, I will liken him to a WISE MAN WHO BUILT HIS HOUSE ON THE ROCK: …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:14, 18 – 24, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/matthew/7-1.htm

 

Notice that the REJECTED ONES will CLAIM CONVERSIONS EXCUSE and that THEY ARE MANY and CLAIM PROPHECY, CAST OUT DEMONS and MIRACLES GIFT while the ACCEPTED ONES in CONTRAST CHRIST clearly POINTS them toward those WHO DO HIS SAYINGS (i.e. HIS NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDS meaning the first group will reject this but focus on gifts).

 

The Idea that “Pentecostal Gifts Doctrine” are ELEMENTARY or BASIC MILK DOCTRINE is echoed even by Witness Lee as shown in Pages 2478 and 2488 earlier but more so from this BIBLE VERSE itself which in COMPARISON clearly REVEALS that the CHARITY DOCTRINE is part of “MEAT DOCTRINE for MATURED CHRISTIANS ONLY” here (more details for this discussion aspect in Pages 32, 253,  earlier):

 

“… 1Therefore, LEAVING THE DISCUSSION OF THE ELEMENTARY PRINCIPLES OF CHRIST, let us GO ON TO [a]PERFECTION, NOT laying again the FOUNDATION of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS  and OF FAITH TOWARD GOD, 2of the DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS, of LAYING OF HANDS, of RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, and of ETERNAL JUDGMENT. 3And THIS [b]we will do IF GOD PERMITS. … 9But, beloved, we are confident of BETTER THINGS  CONCERNING YOU, YES, THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we speak in this manner. 10For God is not unjust to forget YOUR WORK and [d]LABOR OF LOVE which you have shown toward His name, IN THAT YOU HAVE MNISTERED TO THE SAINTS, and DO MINISTER. 11And WE DESIRE THAT EACH ONE OF YOU SHOW THE SAME DILLIGENCE TO THE FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTIL THE END, 12that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience INHERIT the promises. …” (Hebrews 6:1 – 3, 9 – 12, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/hebrews/6.htm

In short, IF GOD’s OWN WORD has CALLED these DOCTIRNES as BASIC MILK/ELEMENTARY DOCTRINE = “… NOT laying again the FOUNDATION of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS  and OF FAITH TOWARD GOD, 2of the DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS, of LAYING OF HANDS, of RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, and of ETERNAL JUDGMENT. …” (Hebrews 6:1 – 3), then who can speak against it?

 

The phrase “… let us GO ON TO [a]PERFECTION,…” in the above later clearly refers to the “CHARITY DOCTRINE ONLY” as those Verses did NOT end there but GOD’s WORD Revealed FURTHER this MATURED DOCTRINE next for PERFECTION as “… 9But, beloved, we are confident of BETTER THINGS  CONCERNING YOU, YES, THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we speak in this manner. 10For God is not unjust to forget YOUR WORK and [d]LABOR OF LOVE which you have shown toward His name, IN THAT YOU HAVE MNISTERED TO THE SAINTS, and DO MINISTER. 11And WE DESIRE THAT EACH ONE OF YOU SHOW THE SAME DILLIGENCE TO THE FULL ASSURANCE OF HOPE UNTIL THE END, 12that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience INHERIT the promises. …” (Hebrews 6: 9 – 12, NKJV)

Charity Doctrine part in Verses above = “… LABOR OF LOVE which you have shown toward His name, IN THAT YOU HAVE MNISTERED TO THE SAINTS, and DO MINISTER ….”

 

This CORRELATES well with CHRIST’s OWN WORDS when HE SPOKE of “PERFECTION” (MATURITY of FOLLOWING HIM) TYPE includes the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE, to quote from Page 2541 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook:

 

Some Christians err by thinking “Love cannot speak like that” and says “things about money and prosperity” which “they want to hear” but here is LOVE HIMSELF as a PERSON, none other than the MOST BLESSED ONE, LORD JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF TELLING THIS SAME THING to the RICH MAN (from Page 489 of the #SafeRouteScripturallyBook):

 

(yes What is True Biblical Love? Love Looks at you in the eye and Tells you this):

 

“… Then JESUS, LOOKING at him, LOVED him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, SELL WHATEVER YOU HAVE and GIVE TO THE POOR, and you will have TREASURE in HEAVEN; and come, TAKE UP THE CROSS, and FOLLOW ME.” …” (Mark 10:21, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/mark/10-21.htm

 

Yes, please notice the phrase “LOVED him” in the above when CHRIST SPOKE this. So it’s okay if they HATE us or DISCRIMINATE us even among CHRISTIANS for Speaking this because that’s the CARRY the CROSS CHRIST MEANT in VERSES above which INCLUDED the CHARITY DOCTRINE LIFESTYLE of “… SELL WHATEVER YOU HAVE and GIVE TO THE POOR, and you will have TREASURE in HEAVEN; and come, TAKE UP THE CROSS, and FOLLOW ME.” …” in HIS OWN WORDS ABOVE.

 

So WHAT TO DO to ENTER Heaven?

 

“… [18“And to the [h]angel of the CHURCH IN THYATIRA write], ‘These things SAYS the SON OF GOD, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19“I know YOUR WORKS, LOVE, [i]SERVICE, FAITH, and your [j]PATIENCE; and as for YOUR WORKS, THE LAST ARE MORE THAN THE FIRST.. … as they say, I [r]will put on you NO OTHER BURDEN. 25But hold fast what you have till I come. 26And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I WILL GIVE POWER OVER THE NATIONS— 27‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father; 28and I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR. 29“He who has an ear, let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES.” ’ …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 2:18 – 19, 24 – 29, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/2.htm

 

 

 

 

 

So, CHRIST’s Requirements for Christians Chosen for the “Morning Star” to ENTER HEAVEN are

 

  1. WORKS
  2. LOVE

iii. SERVICE

  1. FAITH
  2. PATIENCE
  3. Even MORE WORKS by “Relative Measure” as HE Repeats Mysteriously above this phrase: “… and as for YOUR WORKS, THE LAST ARE MORE THAN THE FIRST…”

 

We know that these “Works” are measured by “Relative Measure” as per Verse below from this same chapter from this Book of Revelation by CHRIST HIMSELF too:

 

“… “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. …” (Revelation 2:9, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/revelation/2-9.htm

 

In “full”, the message was this to get theCROWN OF LIFE Promiseand NOT be “HURT” by the “SECOND DEATH”:

 

“… 8“And to the [d]angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9“I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan n. 10Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.  11“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ …” – The KING, Most Blessed Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 2:8 – 11, NKJV)

 

Source: https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/2.htm

Comment: Please notice the phrase “Poverty” carefully in the above which refers to “poor literally, financially on earth” but are “rich” (with treasure in heavens, implied by contrast here, e.g. Luke 12:31 – 24) by CHRIST HIMSELF which is implied by “Relative Measure” clearly.

 

Mysteriously, the phrase “… NOT be “HURT” by the “SECOND DEATH“…” in Verse above has been interpreted by some great Christians such as Blessed Watchman Nee, Father of Pentecostal Christianity in China to refer that “such FALLEN CHRISTIANS are SAVED but they DO NOT ENTER HEAVEN NOR ARE CROWNED but SAVED onlyin Page 2509 where possibly this COULD BE A NON ELECT SALVATION among the final nations who are saved on the FINAL NEW EARTH ONLY (as I conjecture further if this is true) in light of First Christianity Quotes from the DOCTORS of the CHURCH and others as well say in Pages 2092 onward of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook for details“.

 

In short: The interesting thing here is that Watchman Nee BELIEVED that SALVATION CAN OCCUR even AFTER the LAKE OF FIRE JUDGMENT but they LIMITED IT TO FALLEN CHRISTIANS ONLY. But in light of say First Christianity Quotes of especially say St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeous of Lyons or even the Shepherd of Hermas, other Church Fathers to the Rabbinical Judaism quotes too as I have quoted in Pages 2350 to 2408 earlier (which has the most interesting quotes in the entire book for this discussion in my opinion), it is thus possible that may have limited this for Christians only while this POSSIBILITY could actually be the NON ELECT SALVATION part if we are right. Since only God Knows, let GOD DECIDE.

 

 

Recap: The “Rule of Possibility” from Page 2251 of this #SafeRouteScripturallyBook, (example):

 

Apart from St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr’s CHILIASM QUOTES or even the DOCTORS of the CHURCH Quotes stated in Pages 1842 to 1886 earlier, or Blessed Ambrosiaster in Pages 2150 to 2157  or others too in Pages 1887 to 1904 using UNCONDEMNED WRITINGS from FIRST CHRISTIANITY only where SOME has been CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE by SOME EARLY CHRISTIANS  as per the WARNING in SCRIPTURE that “… and knowing this first, that NO PROPHECY of SCRIPTURE is of ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, …” (2 Peter 1:20, NKJV), here is one of the EARLIEST INTERPRETATION of such a FINAL PROPHECY preserved seem to point likewise to the NON ELECT SALVATION POSSIBILITY to EXIST as described next.

If several quotes are early, which Saint is “earlier” that is more likely true,  and that’s the way I see the RULE of POSSIBILITY. Peace to you

 

Anonymous Christian

Jonathan Ramachandran is founder at AnonymousChristian.org which serves as a Christian Blog discussing the Greater Hope of Biblical Christian in Christ Alone. He is also an IMO (International Math Coach) and a featuring Guitarist for many bands.

Recent Posts

Dialogues – FAQ and Doctrine to Possibilities

Latest Update: 9 Jan 2023 Math Olympiad Class Advertisement (21 Dec 2022) For enquiries of classes, please WhatsApp me at… Read More

2 months ago

Bible and Church Fathers Quotes for Charity Doctrine

  Math Olympiad Class Advertisement (21 Dec 2022)   For enquiries of classes, please WhatsApp me at +6010 – 8803… Read More

3 months ago

Mystery of the Marriage of Christ and His Church through the Eyes of the Direct Disciples of the Apostles only

Last Updated: 4 Sep 2022     Math Olympiad Class Advertisement   I Teach Math Olympiad, Add Maths or any… Read More

7 months ago

Earning Salvation Fallacy and God’s Commands by Faith Mystery to the Endless Beauty of His Written Word

Last Updated: 3 July 2022     Math Olympiad Class Advertisement   I Teach Math Olympiad, Add Maths or any… Read More

10 months ago

FAQ on Charity Doctrine to OSAS and NON-ELECT SALVATION Possibility

Last Updated: 15 March 2022     Math Olympiad Class Advertisement   I Teach Math Olympiad, Add Maths or any… Read More

11 months ago

Possible Implications of NON-ELECT SALVATION Doctrine based on 2 ESDRAS and FIRST CHRISTIANITY

Last Updated: 26 February 2022     Math Olympiad Class Advertisement   I Teach Math Olympiad, Add Maths or any… Read More

12 months ago