Lake of Fire – Death and Hades – Second Death – Last Things
Hell – Body and Soul in relation to Death and Hades
Question
Do you worship a ‘god of death’? I worship a ‘God of the Living’.
Reply
Dude, I don’t worship a “god of death”,
I worship a God Who will Do both (i. e. Able to DESTROY both BODY and SOUL in Hell), fear Him! (Matthew 10:28) and MAKES ALIVE (1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22) later post Judgment by His TRIUMPHANT MERCY which can END any afterlife Judgment Sentence (James 2:13):
“The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol [Hell, Hades] and Raises up.” (1 Samuel 2:6, NASB)
The One Who Does BOTH is All Powerful than only being able to do ‘one of it’.
“The LORD kills and makes alive” (1 Samuel 2:6) above refers to —> Disannulling the BODY’s Covenant with DEATH (Revelation 20:14, Hosea 13:14, Isaiah 28:15 with Isaiah 28:18, 1 Corinthians 15:55).
“He brings down to Sheol [Hell, Hades] and Raises up” (1 Samuel 2:6) above refers to —> Disannulling the SOUL with SPIRIT’s Covenant with SHEOL or HADES (Luke 16:19 – 31, Matthew 10:28, Revelation 20:14, Hosea 13:14, Isaiah 28:15 with Isaiah 28:18, 1 Corinthians 15:55).
Peace to you
“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death, the Lake of Fire. And if anyone’s name was not found Written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:14 – 15, NASB)
(i) Least in the Kingdom of Heaven
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 11:11, NASB)
Who are these “least in the kingdom of the heaven(s)?”
The ‘command breakers of ALL Law and Prophets’ (Context: Matthew 5:17 – 18 prior):
“Whoever then shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach others the same, he will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever shall keep and shall teach them, he will be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.” (Matthew 5:19, BLB)
How can they be ‘greater’ than John the Baptist?
Because they are ‘sinless’ having been BORN again when they are ‘IN the Kingdom of the Heavens’ and so are greater than ‘how John the Baptist was on earth’ (being a man – having sin too).
Please note ‘carefully’ the phrase ‘born of woman’ in Matthew 11:11 which describes the ‘earthly John the Baptist’ (Context: Earth) being compared against ‘the least in the kingdom of the heavens’ (Context: anyone ‘born again – into sinlessness’ to be able to enter the Heavens already).
The ‘Law breakers’ are only allowed into the ‘kingdom of the heavens’ post Lake of Fire Judgment (Revelation 20:14 – 15) and are ‘Born Again’ after that (John 3:3 with Shepherd of Hermas 15[92]:3) being Reconciled as the ‘thirsty ones from the Lake of Fire’ (Revelation 22:17, Colossians 1:16 with Colossians 1:20, Romans 8:20 – 22 too) —> where they are admitted into being IN the Kingdom of the Heavens eventually’ (Matthew 5:19).
As explained in detail in post below, the wicked can only SEE the Kingdom of God but NOT ENTER it (Shepherd of Hermas 15[92]:3) and SEEing His Kingdom is only possible after being ‘Born Again’ (John 3:3).
So, the wicked enter His Kingdom of the Heavens eventually but will NOT ENTER into the Kingdom of God.
(ii) Kingdom of the Heavens vs Kingdom of God
The fallen believers (and wicked) do NOT enter His Kingdom of the Heavens during His Glorious Return on the White Horse to Marry His Bride (Matthew 7:21 - 23 with Matthew 25:1 - 13). Only His Church, the Bride or believers in faith enter FIRST into the Kingdom of the Heavens during this Time for His Wedding with some invited guests.
The 'Law breakers' (hence wicked) enter the Kingdom of the Heavens being IN it (Matthew 5:19) after the Lake of Fire Judgment being reconciled after being 'Born Again' into 'sinlessness' eventually as described in (i) with Verses.
Just like we on earth cannot see the 'heavens' now, neither can the wicked see the 'heavens' unless they are 'born again' as (John 3:3 with Shepherd of Hermas 15[92]:3) implies this. Special cases such as Lazarus and the rich man are to be understood in the same light such as special permission is granted on earth sometimes to see such visions too - 2 Corinthians 12:2 but it's NOT true generally for even a believer to be able to see the heavens from the earth).
The word 'heavens' is broad in its definition as even the spiritual wickedness are there currently (Ephesians 6:12, Psalm 82) and there are at least three layers of heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2).
The Center Piece of Heaven is the Kingdom of God which resides only within a believer first (being connected to it spiritually - Luke 17:21 - His Bride, Sheepfold1) and it's Climax is the Fellowship of the Saints in the 'Holy of the Holies' within the New Jerusalem of which the wicked CANNOT enter it (Revelation 21:10, 25 – 27, Revelation 21:2). The righteous ones saved from the nations (Sheepfold2) may enter into it and pay homage and bring glory to God (Revelation 21:24 - 26).
The kingdom of the heavens certainly includes the Kingdom of God but the Kingdom of God is NOT accessible to the Wicked at all. The only part of the kingdom of the heavens the wicked may come into (‘enter’ eventually by His Mercy, Matthew 5:19) is the ‘outer regions OUTSIDE His New Jerusalem’ but they will NOT inherit any of these things (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 11, Revelation 21:27, Matthew 19:23 – 24).
The ‘popular assumption’ that the Kingdom of the Heavens and the Kingdom of God are the same is NOT accurate and true partially only as described here.
“And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:23 – 24, NASB)
Please note ‘carefully’ (‘accurately’) that Lord Jesus Christ mentions BOTH the ‘Kingdom of the Heavens’ (Matthew 19:23, heavens is actually ‘plural’ in Greek here) vs the ‘Kingdom of God’ (Matthew 19:24) in Consecutive Verses above (Context) proving distinction irrefutably.
Also, some Gospel writers may have recorded only ‘some parts’ of the ‘conversation above’ (Mark 10:23 – 27, Luke 18:24 – 27) and that’s ‘why’ that ‘same account’ seems to be in ‘different’ phrases. Yes, Lord Jesus Christ must have ‘repeated’ Himself Saying the ‘same/similar’ Sentence in a few ways as the Verses quoted (in brackets too) prove.
Hence these Verses taken collectively do NOT prove that the ‘Kingdom of God’ and the ‘Kingdom of the heavens’ are ‘identical’ but rather that these have distinction though there are ‘Overlaps’ in their definitions. Indeed, the ‘slightly’ different description in each of the Gospel exists for this same incident simply because some Gospel writers are Writing the Various ‘repeats’ of this same/similar statement as our Most Blessed Saviour Uttered it.
“and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matthew 3:2, BLB)
(iii) Death vs Hades (Sheol)
Death ---> has Power over the DEAD BODY = CORPSE which SLEEPS in the Grave when we Die.
Example: (Psalm 49:14, Isaiah 66:24,Job 24:20).
Sheol (Hades) ---> has Power over their SOUL with SPIRIT
Only the righteous' 'life' or SOUL - is Saved from this and brought into the 'blessed abodes of comfort such as Abraham's Bosom, Psalm 49:15, Luke 16:22' ---> while the wicked's SOUL is brought into torments at SHEOL for JUDGMENT (Job 24:19, Psalm 49:14, Luke 16:23).
So on the Day of Judgment (Revelation 20:11 - 15, 1 Peter 4:5, Acts 17:31) ---> the first resurrection of the WICKED will be for JUDGMENT in the LAKE of FIRE (John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2) ---> where the Last Fires of Gehenna (Hell) will consume and Destroy both the BODY (Bound to DEATH) and SOUL (Bound to HADES/SHEOL) ---> as Matthew 10:28 Means Irrefutably ----> This is the SECOND DEATH ---> this is called THE DEAD being JUDGED in the FLESH (first resurrection of the wicked) in 1 Peter 4:6 referring to the SAME DEAD in 1 Peter 4:5 (Consecutive Verses) ----> the but thereafter, the 'wicked's' or 'the dead's' SPIRIT will LIVE (having the SIN in BOTH its BODY and SOUL being DESTROYED by the LAKE of FIRE Completely) ----> as the phrase "live to God in spirit" means in 1 Peter 4:6 which can only be understood when we take these Verses together.
Since, there are two deaths for the wicked, for the wicked to live again and to have the HOPE of being MADE ALIVE by CHRIST (Acts 24:15 with 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22, 1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, 1 Timothy 4:10, Romans 5:18 - 19) ---> there must be a 'second resurrection' of the wicked thereafter by the end of the next punishment age (AGE2 - Matthew 25:46, Maximum Matthew 12:32) ---> being SAVED too (1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, Titus 2:11-NASB, Luke 3:6, Isaiah 40:5) ---> so they could be resurrected as the ALL FLESH (referring to the Prophecy that ALL MANKIND in their RESURRECTED BODIES) eventually Worshiping the Lord together (in AGE3 onwards, Isaiah 66:23, Revelation 15:4, Revelation 5:12 - 13 all PROPHETICALLY mentioned in Holy Scripture, Psalm 65:2, Psalm 86:9, Ezekiel 20:40, Psalm 22:29) ---> as they see only the lifeless-corpse or carcass still in the 'unquenchable fire' (Isaiah 66:24, some 'seeing their own evil corpse being wicked earlier' - Ezekiel 36:31) including even 'he who cannot keep his SOUL alive' (destroyed in the last Fires of Gehenna or Hell at most - Matthew 10:28 earlier, implied in Prophetic Messianic Psalm 22:29 regarding Christ's Final Victory over Death - 1 Corinthians 15:26 till God becomes ALL in ALL later, 1 Corinthians 15:28 at the end of the AGES after He puts away sin completely - Hebrews 9:26 in the 'fullness of the TIMES' - Ephesians 1:9 - 10, 1 Timothy 2:6).
An Important Point in Proper Contextual Exegesis:
Apostle Paul does NOT Write about the Second Death in the Lake of Fire at all in 1 Corinthians because he is focused in the BEYOND the afterlife Judgment-part toward the END result only in that “all men who die in Adam” will be “made alive in Christ” (1 Corinthians 15:21 – 22, not immediately but post age-during Judgment in the Lake of Fire for some) —-> where “being MADE ALIVE in CHRIST” means in the FLESH of a RESURRECTED IMPERISHABLE SINLESS BODY eventually but with differing glory (1 Corinthians 15:38 – 44).
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/salvation-of-all-men-post-afterlife-judgments-must-be-saved/
To prove 'otherwise', a Bible Scholar must be able to prove contextually where in 1 Corinthians 15 apostle Paul spoke regarding the 'Lake of Fire'.
"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up." (1 Samuel 2:6, NASB)
The Verse above could be understood as follows too (in light of this discussion regarding the relationship between DEATH and HADES in relation to BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT of a 'Wicked' MAN case):
The LORD kills and makes alive ---> refers to the OLD SINFUL BODY bound to DEATH and Destroyed (as Matthew 10:28 implies) in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14) ---> being MADE ALIVE thereafter (1 Corinthians 15:22 too) as Hosea 13:14 implies as well ---> A NEW SINLESS BODY is Given after that as He Makes All things New (Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22).
He brings down to Sheol and Raises up ---> refers to the OLD SINFUL SOUL with SPIRIT bound to SHEOL or HADES where only the SOUL is DESTROYED (as Matthew 10:28 implies) in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14) ----> being Raised up to (Acts 24:15) thereafter as Hosea 13:14 implies as well ----> A NEW SINLESS SOUL is Given to the SPIRIT which LIVES to God (1 Peter 4:6) as He Makes All things New which joins to that NEW SINLESS BODY for the SECOND RESURRECTION for the Wicked (1 Corinthians 15:44).
- a) A Reliable afterlife Judgment Vision which agrees to this Exegesis may be seen from the Infamous Shepherd of Hermas Book in link below:
- b) The Explanation regarding the "Timeline" for the "ages" with regards to "Judgment" (AGE1, AGE2, AGE3) and the Salvation of ALL Men eventually may be seen in post below:
"... a wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT." (Ecclesiastes 8:5, KJV)
Salvation of All Men post Afterlife Judgments? – Must be Saved
- c) Regarding the Problem of Evil
Conclusion
Lord Jesus Christ having the KEYS of both DEATH and HADES can SAVE anyone at any time even now and from the Lake of Fire too (Revelation 1:18). To quote:
“and He Who is Living, and I did become Dead, and, lo, I am Living to the ages of the Ages. Amen! and I have the KEYS of the HADES and of the DEATH.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:18,YLT)
The time frame of “ages of the Ages” (or Forever and ever - it doesn't matter for HIS MERCY can TRIUMPH and END even the WORST afterlife Judgment Sentence with 'no mercy' first as James 2:13 implies) ---> where this time frame of “ages of the Ages” (or Forever and ever) is highlighted in the above to show that HE will use the KEYS to SAVE from those Bound to HADES and DEATH in the LAKE OF FIRE too (e.g. Revelation 14:11, Revelation 20:10 with Revelation 20:14) – Can you see it? (the phrase ‘ages of Ages’ occurs in some of these Verses quoted connecting these together)
“From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine Eyes.” – God Speaks (in Hosea 13:14, YLT)
Repentance is hid from Mine eyes = God Will NOT Change His Mind from Saving in the afterlife from both SHEOL (HADES) or DEATH as Hosea 13:14 Reveals Majestically even if when these are cast into the LAKE of FIRE for the Final SECOND DEATH (as Revelation 20:14 clearly mentions causing the Mysterious Reconciliation from the Lake of Fire toward these “thirsty ones” as Prophesied Majestically in Revelation 22:17 as well – His Bride and the Spirit calls out to these thirsty ones and only the Lake of Fire makes someone to still be thirsty, right? His Bride or Church, believers are NOT the thirsty ones for we NEVER thirst again after our Resurrection – Isn’t it obvious? Revelation 20:4 – 6, John 4:14, Luke 20:35 – 36).
If the time frame of “ages of Ages” is NOT highlighted in Verse above, God knows that some men will ‘add’ to His Holy Word by Claiming that the KEYS to UNLOCK ‘time period is only in the dispensation of Grace now or other man made limits’ which are all REFUTED by this WRITTEN phrase.
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/wicked-does-lord-jesus-christ-bring-hope-to-the-goats-too/
Please note that if “ages of the Ages” is wrong and "Forever and ever" is right, it proves that the effects of that PUNISHMENT namely that the SIN with the BODY (with DEATH in the Lake of Fire) and SIN with the SOUL (with SHEOL/HADES in the Lake of Fire too) at the SECOND DEATH will DESTROYED or CEASE to EXIST eventually (Revelation 20:14) for the 'wicked' whose names are NOT found in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 20:15). Their 'spirit' will LIVE to GOD as 1 Peter 4:6 reveals this Mystery as Described in detail in links given too and please note that this is a reason why God in His Manifold Wisdom Created 'body + soul + spirit' for a man distinctly though they may be overlaps (as 1 Thessalonians 5:23 mentions this).
"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:12, NASB)
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that LOVE HIM." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 2:9, KJV)
"I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you might bind on the earth shall have been bound in the heavens, and whatever you might loose on the earth shall have been loosed in the heavens." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:19, NASB)
So, please I beg and implore you ---> believe in Lord Jesus Christ now and INHERIT both His Kingdom of the Heavens and the Kingdom of God in its FULLEST.
P/S:
To INHERIT the MOST, we have to BELIEVE the MOST:
"Jesus answered and said to them, "THIS is the WORK of GOD, that you BELIEVE in HIM Whom He has Sent." (John 6:29, NASB)
Why?
If God Put the 'highest' rewards based on works, it would be unfair to those 'who weren't supported much or didn't have the big platforms or the money to do those good works'. Also, 'believing' the 'most' about the Gospel is the only thing both the 'poor and the rich' can be compared to in their own private lives (hence it is FAIR toward all of them).
"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" - Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:12, NASB)
More Details?
"Your COVENANT with DEATH will be CANCELED , And your PACT with SHEOL will NOT stand; When the overwhelming scourge passes through, Then you become its trampling place." (Isaiah 28:18, NASB)
Please consider link below:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-hell-and-death-hope-under-fire-mystery-resurrection-of-the-dead-three-ages-mystery/
P/S: Is Hades as an afterlife punishment region for real?
Is the Rich Man and Lazarus Story "literal" or just a parable which is to be taken "allegorically" (Luke 16:19 - 31)?
Luke 16:19 - 31 - a parable cannot use imaginary things but only things which exist.
Literal = Such an afterlife Punishment region exists in Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek).
Allegorical = The Rich Man represents Israel being well fed with Scripture while the Gentile being scarcely fed like Lazarus.
There are "Koine Greek experts" believing the Rich man and the Lazarus literally as well as allegorically too (Scripture has two meanings in such cases for example Israel as Son and Christ too in Hosea 11:1, Matthew 2:15). I'm saying both meanings are right. Only you are claiming that only one interpretation is there. Please take note "carefully".
I accept BOTH interpretation to be true. To ignore one of it, is to remain with a half truth. And thanks for the links, I have no problem with those except when it claims that it's the "only" that's right whilst rejecting the other (both the literal and allegorical are true - Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 10:1, Hebrews 8:5, Luke 24:44 - 45).
How about a 'beam in one's eye' (Matthew 7:3 - 5)?
The beam exists. Hades exists. The Description of Hades is given.
At most, the nature of the fire could be analyzed further but that it causes torment etc. in the afterlife is true.
Your argument is linguistics where the rich man and Lazarus is descriptive. It's not colloquial speech, a wrong analogy.
Do I believe in Eternal Hell?
I don't believe in eternal Hell but purgatorial hell Universalim (if I have to label myself) just like Clement of Alexandria or Gregory of Nyssa or Sadhu Sundar Singh.
Website link:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/hell-in-church-history/
Peace to you
P/S 3: God's Sovereignty - Good Triumphs over Evil
God Created evil (Isaiah 45:7) as it was separate in a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil with a choice.
Evil is against God's Will and NOT part of His Plan, hence temporal or "Vanity" (KJV, Romans 8:20).
That refers to God Overcoming Evil by Good only (James 1:13, James 1:17). God's Act is the Good only to Overcome the evil (Romans 12:21).
If evil is for Good, there's no need to overcome evil with Good (Romans 12:21).
Your idea contradicts James 1:13 too.
God Judges evil first by giving them back what they have sown (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) but Overcomes evil later with Good (Romans 12:21).
No Verse says that the evil is for Good. Working all together for Good ---> God applies His Will which is Good only to all (Isaiah 46:10).
God only does evil in Judgment by returning their evil back to them (Isaiah 3:11, Exodus 32:14, Amos 3:6).
His Sovereignty is in Knowing what evil can do (Foreknowledge) where He returns their evil back to the perpetrators in Judgment (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) and Overcomes it with Good after that to END evil till it ceases to exist (Romans 12:21) by Filling all things with Himself (Ephesians 1:23, Ephesians 4:10) Who has NO evil or Darkness in Him (1 John 1:5) and He becomes All in All (1 Corinthians 15:28).
God was never all in all at the start of creation (No verse says this) and hence Creation cannot fall anymore after He becomes all in all in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28, please note the word END in 1 Corinthians 15:24 to realize this) ----> Finally, Incorruptibility or Immortality (1 Corinthians 15:42, 53, 54).
Salvation Belongs to our God - Are we SAVED?
When we confess on earth and believe we are Saved (Romans 10:8 - 10) and experience the Power of the Age to Come (e.g. fruits of the Spirit, Hebrews 6:5). So, we are saved when we confess but we remain saved as long as we abide in Him and His Words (John 15:4).
As the Parable of the Sower also mentions, there are a few type of 'conversions' where all fails except the one who abides in His Word (Mark 4:8, Matthew 7:24).
The failed conversions (servants) become useless and is appointed a place with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46) and these fall away after being once saved before (Hebrews 6:4 - 6) whose end is through Judgment in Fire (Hebrews 10:26 - 31) because they did NOT CONTINUE to ABIDE in HIM and HIS WORDS and FALL AWAY (John 15:6).
Conclusion
"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ." (Romans 10:16 - 17, NASB)
The whole World will be evangelized even into the afterlife as well:
"But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE [inhabited] WORLD.” (Romans 10:18, NASB)
[Emphasis Mine]
“As You sent Me into the WORLD, I also have sent them into the WORLD.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:18, NASB)
“And He said to them, “Go into all the WORLD and PREACH the GOSPEL to ALL CREATION.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 16:15, NASB)
Eventually at the Restoration of All [Created] things by Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 3:21), ALL the WORLD will eventually believe in Him too - causing Salvation - as it is Prophetically mentioned in the Beautiful Conclusion Verse below:
"And without controversy Great is the Mystery of Godliness: GOD was MANIFEST in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED on in the WORLD, received up into Glory." (1 Timothy 3:16, KJV)
Regarding HOPE beyond afterlife Judgments for their end according to their works, please consider the write up below for edification:
and even this afterlife Judgment Vision testifying to this as well:
Peace to you
P/S: Does our Good Behaviour also Play a Role for our Salvation?
Our Good behavior doesn't save us but our bad behaviour can cause us to be condemned or Judged first due to Lawlessness (Matthew 7:20 - 23). Despite our Good Works, we never attain the minimum score required to enter the kingdom of the heavens by our 'own righteousness' (Matthew 5:20, Romans 3:19 - 20).
So Lord Jesus Christ being the ONLY ONE Who not only exceeded the Pharisees' righteousness but also obtained a PERFECT SCORE reveals the Righteousness of God WITHOUT ANY WORKS of the LAW (Romans 3:21) and Imputes the 'Righteousness of God' upon us believers-first in the Present Time (Romans 3:26) and ALL later too (Romans 3:22 - KJV, as it is Prophetically mentioned as a Collective Fact in this Verse through the Faith of Jesus Christ).
Yes, we are Saved by the Faith of Jesus Christ only (Romans 3:22-KJV, YLT) and we receive it now as believers in the 'present time' (Colossians 1:22, Romans 3:26) via the 'election of Grace' (Romans 11:5 - 6). We only receive the Justification by Faith of Jesus Christ in the 'present time, now' (please note these words or equivalent in the quoted Verses in brackets) if we 'believe in Him without seeing itself - faith' as apostle Paul himself concludes this Beautifully below:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the Faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the Faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” – apostle Paul (Galatians 2:16, KJV)
Firstly, please note carefully the distinction between the “Faith of Jesus Christ” [i. e. The 100% Perfect Faith of Christ] and the phrase “even we have believed in Jesus Christ” (a believer’s faith in Christ – Romans 3:26) mentioned distinctly in Verse above only in a more accurate translation.
Please also note carefully the phrase “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the Faith of Jesus Christ,” in Verse above to realize that the “works of the Law” remain separate from the “Faith of Jesus Christ” where the former ‘leads to rewards’ but only the Latter yields Salvation.
Shalom
P/S 2: Are Biblical Truths more Complex than usually Understood?
Yes:
"To whom would He teach knowledge,
And to whom would He INTERPRET the MESSAGE?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just taken from the breast?
“For He says,
‘Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little HERE, a little THERE.’” (Isaiah 28:9 - 10, NASB)
The OT is Scripture too.
People want their opinion to be right more than what's Written in the Word and hence they miss Truth often.
Another common fallacy is not taking other verses which speak about a topic and holding on to only one Verse (unless there is only one Verse for that) causing them to be unable to see the bigger and more complex picture within Holy Scripture (both the OT and NT).
Please note that the 'greatest' in the 'kingdom of the heavens are those who both 'do and teach' His Commandments and NOT against it (Matthew 5:19). However, in Matthew 18:4, Lord Jesus Christ mentions that someone as 'humble' as a 'little child' is the 'greatest' in His Kingdom. How is it so?
Simple: Because a 'little child' is a MASTER of OBEDIENCE and NEVER questions His Holy Commands. It knows of NO OPINIONS against His Ways (unless deceived by men to be likewise - Matthew 18:6) and NEITHER does it know any form of REBELLION against Him (1 Samuel 15:23) ----> that's why the Childlike Faith and Attitude as such OBEYS or KEEPS His Commandments because such a one LOVES Him (John 14:15) and FRIENDS Him too (John 15:14) ---> becoming 'among the greatest in His Kingdom of the Heavens' as the Beautiful Quote below Reveals Majestically too:
“Should I worship Him from fear of hell, may I be cast into it. Should I serve Him from desire of gaining heaven, may He keep me out. But should I worship Him from love alone, He reveals Himself to me, that my whole heart may be filled with His love and presence.” – Sadhu Sundar Singh
Are we able to have a 'faith' like that?
May God have Mercy on Whomever He Wills:
"So then it does NOT depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God Who has MERCY." - apostle Paul (Romans 9:16, NASB)
Inward Beauty
Beautiful on the Inside = Submits to God's Commands Willingly (John 14:15) like a child (Matthew 18:4).
Verses:
"In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. Your adornment must not be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear." - apostle Peter (1 Peter 3:1 - 6, NASB)
A person thus decides 'his/her inner' beauty with respect to 'how much obedience one lives to God personally in their lives'.
So, let us be 'wise' and 'obey more Verses from His Word' (e.g. 1 Corinthians 14:37) to 'increase in Inner Beauty which never fades' (1 Peter 3:4).
We decide that ----> Galatians 6:7, Revelation 22:12, Romans 2:6, but God has the Final Say in regards to the 'Resurrection of the Dead differing in Glory too' 1 Corinthians 15:38 - 42.
Wisdom - She is His First Beautiful Creation before the First Dust of the World
Verses:
"Does not wisdom call,
And understanding lift up her voice?
To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
Listen, for I will speak noble things;
And the opening of my lips will reveal right things.
For my mouth will utter truth;
And wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
“All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness;
There is nothing crooked or perverted in them.
“They are all straightforward to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
Counsel is mine and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, power is mine.
“I love those who love me;
And those who diligently seek me will find me.
The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
“From everlasting [the age] I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the FIRST DUST of the WORLD.
For he who finds me finds life
And obtains favor from the LORD.
“But he who sins against me injures himself;
All those who hate me love death.”
(Proverbs 8:1, 4, 6 - 9, 14, 17, 22 - 23, 26, 35 - 36, NASB)
Are we 'able' to 'understand'?
"Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
“So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way
And be satiated with their own devices.
“For the waywardness of the naive will kill them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them.
“But he who listens to me shall live securely
And will be at ease from the dread of evil.” (Proverbs 1:20, 28 - 29, 31 - 33, NASB)
Conclusion
God Created "her" (Wisdom) to be the Greatest Desirable thing a man can have (excluding God in Principle of 1 Corinthians 15:27 because it's in the Context of 'all creation only' and God is NOT Created):
"For wisdom is better than jewels;
And all desirable things cannot compare with her." (Proverbs 8:11, NASB)
I repeat, with EMPHASIS:
"For WISDOM is better than jewels;
And ALL DESIRABLE THINGS CANNOT COMPARE with HER." (Proverbs 8:11, NASB)
False Teaching - God is Responsible for Evil
Question
Here is an Old Testament law that says if you dig a ditch and your neighbor's ox falls into it, you are responsible to get the ox out or replace it. (Sorry, don't have the reference right now).
By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden with its beautiful fruit, God dug the ditch. I'm pretty sure He did it on purpose, and is working out His plan to get us out.
Reply
A ditch can't be seen and no one walks into a ditch after seeing it.
God didn't dig a ditch because after He created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, He WARNED them NOT to eat of it.
Digging a ditch (as you claim) would be equivalent to NOT telling them in 'advance' not to eat of it ---> which NEVER Happened.
Regarding the Historical Context of the Rich Man and Lazarus Story, here's a nice writing by brother Marc:
We can't just ignore the historical context (e.g. 2nd Temple eschatology) well-established during Christ's time which developed a radical reinterpretation of terminological concepts like "Hades" and "Gehenna" used even in common vernacular. Most religious Jewish sects (Pharisees, Essenes, etc.) minus the Sadducees believed in an afterlife & Final Judgement (with varying ideas floating around just like the early church who had ECT, annihilation, & purgatorial universalism as the big 3) so any denial of that basic fact causes issues for those who insist that "Hell" is a merely a foreign ("pagan") or incorrect interpretation imposed upon the text, specifically & especially Jesus' words about Hades & Gehenna. Some Jewish sects even believed in immortal souls but how much one wants to argue about Hellenization's influence on the Jews is a different (though not totally unrelated) discussion altogether.
The parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus was already held as a common understanding of the afterlife in Sheol/Hades based on 2nd Temple literature like 2nd Esdras, or better yet the Book of Enoch & the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the Apocrypha & even some OT books. Let's take into account that the Bible at large (being a collection of separate books) contains many layers of thought, literary device & developmental, interpretive overlap. It is multicultural & multidimensional. Nonetheless, in Peter's warning against gnostics he only mentioned private interpretation, never multiple interpretations as the issue.
The argument
about the justice of Hell can't even really be discussed or debated amongst those who don't even believe it has historical or foundational relevance to Judeo-Christian theology at the bare minimum let alone whether it exists -- at the least ECT believers have a leg to stand on in the debate against annis & PU's // all 3 of them can actually wrestle with the issue amongst one another & reason together rather than dismissing it or denigrating it to a non-issue (purely for for philosophical or emotional reasons).
Evil - Judging Evil and Overcoming Evil - FAQ
1) What is Judging Evil?
To quote:
The Judgment part is God giving back their own evil back to themselves be it here on earth or in the afterlife at Hell (Isaiah 3:11, Galatians 6:7).
For example, the ‘babies dashed on the rock Judgment’ (Psalm 137:9) is given to them ‘that did that FIRST toward OTHERS’ (Psalm 137:8) as the Consecutive Verses (in Brackets here) prove this Fact Irrefutably.
There is NOT one Case where a terrible Judgment was done toward ‘good people’ who ‘first didn’t do those type of things toward others’.
No point in arguing that those babies were innocent because so were the babies they DASHED FIRST unto the rocks (that’s the idea of Judgment – equality – eye for an eye).
That’s a great reason why Hell exists and if anyone think he has done no ‘hurt’ or evil toward others in any way, then he need not fear (if he is speaking the ‘truth’ – that DAY will DECLARE it with FIRE – 1 Corinthians 3:13).
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/evil-the-problem-of-evil/
He won’t intervene immediately is proof that He “allowed” a “vanity” of “evil” to exist in freedom on earth.
Evil is the example of ‘choices & acts against His Will are allowed temporarily’ (proving free will or creation’s choice, due to lack of a better word) —-> the ‘evil which He allows on earth during this temporal time of vanity’ (freedom to do evil). It doesn’t mean that it’s free from any consequences but rather that He had appointed a time for Judging all of it too, Ecclesiastes 3:17.
The fact that God Judges evil proves that It is NOT His Will for that evil though He allowed that evil to happen in this “vanity” but has promised deliverance from all these temporal vanity into His Good Will after Judgment, during the Remaking of all things New too (Romans 8:20 – 21).
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/mystery-free-will/
2) What is Overcoming Evil?
Conclusion
His Will is All Powerful (Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 46:10) because He Creates the knowledge of Evil & gives us the ‘will to decide opposite choices’ (Isaiah 45:7,Genesis 2:17), allows evil under fair conditions (1 Corinthians 10:13), He Judges evil (Ecclesiastes 3:17, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 31:17) and Overcomes evil by Good (Romans 12:21) & NOT that He does Evil (Psalm 5:4).
God Judges evil first by giving them back what they have sown (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) but Overcomes evil later with Good (Romans 12:21).
No Verse says that the evil is for Good. Working all together for Good (Romans 8:28) —> God applies His Will which is Good only to all (Isaiah 46:10, Ephesians 1:11).
God only does evil in Judgment by returning their evil back to them (Isaiah 3:11, Exodus 32:14, Amos 3:6).
His Sovereignty is in Knowing what evil can do (Foreknowledge) where He returns their evil back to the perpetrators in Judgment (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) and Overcomes it with Good after that to END evil till it ceases to exist (Romans 12:21) by Filling all things with Himself (Ephesians 1:23, Ephesians 4:10) Who has NO evil or Darkness in Him (1 John 1:5) and He becomes All in All (1 Corinthians 15:28).
God was never all in all at the start of creation (No verse says this - and if so, evil cannot exist in the Beginning) and hence Creation cannot fall anymore after He becomes all in all in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28, please note the word END in 1 Corinthians 15:24 to realize this) —-> Finally, Incorruptibility or Immortality (1 Corinthians 15:42, 53, 54).
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Here's an Actual Biblical Example of God OVERCOMING Evil:
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." (Genesis 50:20, NASB)
Please note carefully that 'evil is not called good in Verse above' (where both words are distinctly found). Evil is not seen as an accomplice of Good as some err by claiming this. What happened here is clear: namely that, DESPITE the EVIL DONE (by "Vanity" - Wrong Choices - AGAINST His Holy Good Will by Creation) ----> God Intervened to OVERCOME it by DOING GOOD ONLY toward Joseph in that case.
Why doesn't God Intervene in all cases 'immediately' like that? We may ask Him on Judgment Day. I'm pretty sure God has His Reasons as to 'Why' He Intervenes in some cases Immediately whilst not in others.
A reason could be "our lack of faith" (Hebrews 10:38 - 39, Psalm 44:18, Psalm 78:57) or "our refusal to repent" (Luke 13:2 - 5) or "a punishment for our own sins" (1 Corinthians 11:29 - 30, Ezekiel 18:19 - 20, Deuteronomy 24:16, Jeremiah 31:30, 1 Peter 2:20, Psalm 106:6) or "even for our own Good in the afterlife which eventually leads to a better Resurrection too of which we may not have achieved if the evil was not done to us first" (This is DEEP if you 'understand' it as these Verses point to 'His Glory' under such a reasoning - Hebrews 11:35, 2 Corinthians 12:7 and John 9:3).
"... and others were tortured, NOT accepting their RELEASE, so that they might obtain a BETTER RESURRECTION;" (Hebrews 11:35, NASB)
"For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you DO what is RIGHT and SUFFER for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God." - apostle Peter (1 Peter 2:20, NASB)
That's 'how' Good Always WINS Regardless.
P/S: Is God Responsible for Evil?
Question 1
I mean didn't God give a 'weak flesh' knowing that the 'flesh will fall into sin'?
Reply 1:
Flesh only has the ability to fall in sin if the choice of evil is given as it was in the Tree of Good and Evil. The initial flesh given to Adam and Eve had NO such weakness as God Declared that His Creation was GOOD.
After Adam and Eve CHOSE to Fall, 'their flesh' became 'corruptible by sin' (please note that the 'ability' to 'choose' between obeying God or not obeying God existed before they ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil - because God Made Man in His Image with His Ability of Choice where He NEVER falls and does EVIL being Perfect, James 1:13).
Before they Fell, the ability to CHOOSE between Good and Evil is PERFECTLY FAIR especially since God told them FIRST not to eat of that fruit agreeing to His Perfect Principle of Allowing Evil under 'Fair Conditions toward the Perpetrator' as 1 Corinthians 10:13 reveals. Only after they fell, the 'flesh' of Adam and Eve is 'weak' being 'corrupted by sin' (the choice of evil against God's Will). Hence, we are 'responsible' for 'our own sins by our own evil choices' together with any creation which influences us to do evil and JUDGMENT for it according to our roles in it comes later at the end of this age (Ephesians 6:12, Psalm 82, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Revelation 12:9).
His Foreknowledge (Acts 2:23) is used to OVERCOME evil with Good in the END by His Will which is GOOD ONLY (Romans 12:21, Ephesians 1:11) of which it may NOT be DONE YET (Isaiah 46:10, Hebrews 2:8) but WILL COME to PASS eventually (1 Corinthians 15:27 - 28) in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24) in its OWN DIVINE-KAIROIS TIMES appointed for this (1 Timothy 2:6, Hebrews 9:26, Ephesians 1:9 - 10, Acts 3:21, Revelation 21:5).
False Teaching - God is Responsible for Evil
Question 2
Here is an Old Testament law that says if you dig a ditch and your neighbor's ox falls into it, you are responsible to get the ox out or replace it. (Sorry, don't have the reference right now).
By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden with its beautiful fruit, God dug the ditch. I'm pretty sure He did it on purpose, and is working out His plan to get us out.
Reply 2:
A ditch can't be seen and no one walks into a ditch after seeing it. God didn't dig a ditch because after He created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, He WARNED them NOT to eat of it.
Digging a ditch (as you claim) would be equivalent to NOT telling them in 'advance' not to eat of it ---> which NEVER Happened.
Let us be 'careful' with our words to NOT be against God Who Alone is Perfect because if not, we may be 'knowingly or unknowingly be blaspheming against Him':
"Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed Me by acting treacherously against Me." (Ezekiel 20:27, NASB)
"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:37, NASB)
As the song goes, 'be careful little mouth what you speak...'
Death - What does it mean by Wages of Sin is Death?
Question
This verse (Romans 6:23 in image) has been a source of confusion for me If Jesus was alive in spirit how could he have died for our sins Wages of sin is death as it says in Romans. I have believed that when we die we sleep until resurrection day This made me think about who these spirits are Any help gratefully received
Reply
Body dies at Death and Sleeps in the Dust of the Earth. The Phrase SOUL SLEEPS does NOT exists in Scripture.
Death has Covenant with the Body and Shedding of Blood removes sins (not Soul or Spirit).
Judgment (Matthew 10:28) ---> Soul can die and be destroyed ---> but the spirit lives to God thereafter (1 Peter 4:6).
Soul with Spirit has Covenant with Sheol/Hades where the soul that sinneth shall suffer Judgment and Die here (be destroyed Matthew 10:28 be it in the Gehenna Fire at the Lake of Fire).
Cleansing of Soul to be Preserved only applies to the righteous.
The Resurrection or 'made alive part' applies to all eventually. The Judgment cancellation is only for believers (John 5:24).
Resurrection is the 'redemption of the body' (Romans 8:23) where the spirit (with soul) is given a body (Hence bodily resurrection, spiritual body, 1 Corinthians 15:44) to live on earth.
Without the body, the spirit (with soul) only lives in the afterlife regions of the spirit world such as Abraham's Bosom vs Hades (Luke 16:19 - 31) or Paradise as Christ said TODAY the thief would be with Him there.
So, He cannot be sleeping for THREE DAYS because on that SAME DAY He Went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) also apart from Hades in His Spirit (1 Peter 3:18 - 19) or Soul (Acts 2:27). Only the Body SLEEPS in the Grave.
So, without the Resurrection we cannot 'live again on the Earth' but only in the afterlife abodes with our spirits (souls).
Soul is the 'memory' part of the spirit which is carried forward into the afterlife (often believed to be emotions and will too). If it is sinful (emotions and will etc.), it's DESTROYED. But the righteous souls are cleansed and so they retain 'remembrance' as Luke 16:19 - 31. The rich man's soul was still being destroyed in Hades for the sins he has done (as the soul that sinneth shall die (Ezekiel 18:20) but only the righteous' soul, God RANSOMS or REDEEMS meaning that He does NOT destroy it but cleanses it of sin - Saving it - Psalm 49:15). The 'spirits in those [afterlife] prisons' (1 Peter 3:18 - 19) are 'spirits only' whose 'soul must have been destroyed'.
Though Christ is said to have gone there with His Spirit (1 Peter 3:18), His Soul is INTACT (as evidenced in Acts 2:27) toward these '(human) spirits in prison' who disobeyed God during the Time of Noah (1 Peter 3:19 – 20) before His Resurrection in a BODY and NOT spirit (Luke 24:39). His Ascension refers to Lord Jesus Christ Returning to the Father with a RESURRECTED BODY “three days later” while earlier during the ‘three days’ He was alive in His Spirit (whilst His Body was Dead and Slept in the Tomb) in which He went both to Hades to Preach the Gospel there to the ‘spirits in prison’ (1 Peter 3:18 – 20) and also went to Paradise with the thief (Luke 23:43) probably also to the Blessed Regions such as ‘Abraham’s Bosom’ (as it is called to meet with the Old Testament Saints there such as “Abraham” who were comforted there awaiting Him to be Resurrected just “after” Him when the Three Days was completed as Matthew 27:52 reveals a little of this Mystery where they Return to the Heavens with their Resurrected Bodies too with Him).
P/S: For more details, please consider:
Peace to you
Traditions of Men - FAQ
One Question to Refute them All
'Is there a Verse for their so called claim?'
Please remember to check also:
'Does the Verse say what they claim?'
Examples:
1) Soul Sleep or Spirit Sleep Theory
Some Christians DENY the literal interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus Story (Luke 16:19 - 31) and claim that the "soul or spirit sleeps" till Judgment Day.
Here's a simple Biblical Reply:
Sorry but Christ didn't die "spiritually" for your sins as on the same day He Died, He was also in Paradise (Luke 23:43). So, claiming that Christ Slept in His Grave for 3 Days contradicts Luke 23:43 plainly and Refutes Soul Sleep or Spirit Sleep theory permanently.
Please don't continue deceiving others by quoting vain "traditions of men" which teach otherwise.
Best is, when you die you will realize that there is no 'soul sleep' but only the Body Sleeps in the Dust of the Earth as Case of Lord Jesus Christ Proves Irrefutably.
Sorry to crush your little 'no Hell' beliefs to 'pieces'. In the end, I'm 'not' the one going to Hell (if need be) because I don't contradict Luke 23:43 (for example). Also, I don't contradict the Bible when I say that there is no "soul sleep" or "spirit sleep" simply because those phrases do NOT exist in Holy Scriptures at all & those who err in that don't realize that the BODY SLEEPS is what is referred to in such cases as the Irrefutable Example of Christ Proves.
More Details:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Ironically, even Martin Luther (the Protestant reformer) and William Tyndale (the first translator of the Bible to English) also believed in this "error". Link:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/protestant-reformers-with-a-serious-doctrinal-error-soul-sleep/
Comment:
Someone remarked 'smartly':
Sorry scripture doesn't say that Jesus was dead for three days either.
Replying 'smartly':
He Rose after three days implies this (Mark 9:31, Matthew 17:23).
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40, KJV)
'Three Days in the Belly of the Earth' = afterlife Regions including Hades/Sheol (1 Peter 3:18 - 20) and even beyond into Paradise too (Luke 23:43).
Where is your Verse which says that 'Christ was not dead for three days'? Non-existent, right? Cheers.
Please explain how He was in Paradise (Luke 23:43) and in the 'heart of the earth' (Matthew 12:40) and preaching to the 'spirits in prison too' (1 Peter 3:18 - 20) which occurred upon His Death on His Cross as the phrase "He [Lord Jesus Christ]..., having been put to DEATH indeed in the FLESH, but having been MADE ALIVE in the SPIRIT," (1 Peter 3:18, BLB) means irrefutably "as it is Written".
.
DEATH indeed in the FLESH = Christ Died on His Cross and His BODY is DEAD and LIES in the TOMB. The Word FLESH implies this.
MADE ALIVE in the SPIRIT = He went into the afterlife regions with His SPIRIT and also had His SOUL into Hades/Sheol (Acts 2:27) but was NOT abandoned there as He Rose Three Days later 'Resurrecting with His BODY'.
Are you claiming Christ was not dead? That His Body was not in the Tomb for three days?
What are you talking?
Where is your Verse please?
His Body was in the Tomb which Proves that. Are you claiming that His Body was not in the Tomb for three days?
Where was His Body then?
He was in Paradise (you didn't say it). Scripture says it in Luke 23:43 and I believe Scripture and not you (your claim has 'no' Verse - end of discussion).
You may carry on if you like but I'm out since there is NO VERSE saying what you say.
2) Evil - Doesn't make sense
It is common for atheists and some Christians alike to 'claim' that since Adam and Eve did not know evil prior to eating that fruit, how can they know that it is wrong to disobey God?
Hence such proponents of this 'ear tickling' theory continue to say that 'it's not sin' therefore done by Adam and Eve when they ate of the fruit because they didn't know evil at all before eating that fruit.
Example: 'That whole tree story doesn't make sense. If eating from the tree gave them the ability to know right from wrong they couldn't have known that it was wrong to disobey God until AFTER they ate.'
Sounds 'logical'?
Only until you understand what sin is with 'other Bible Verses' too. Here's a Proper Biblical Reply:
It makes sense.
They don't know evil.
Eve reasons with the Serpent first that God told me not to eat it to which the Serpent tempts by saying that "you will be like God if you eat it".
Hence, Eve ate fully knowing and desiring to be "like God" (which is the sin prior to eating it, Genesis 3:5).
Sin is not only doing evil but also not doing the Good (James 4:17). Such is the Case here before the knowledge of evil simply because Eve did NOT do the "good" which is "not eat of it as God Commanded".
In other words, they KNOW that 'not' doing the 'Good God has Commanded' is 'wrong' even BEFORE eating of the Tree as evidenced by the phrase (Spoken by EVE) "but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die." (Genesis 3:3, NASB)
So, EVE ate it FULLY knowing that SHE WILL DIE (her own mouth condemns her; isn't it obvious as she confesses it in Genesis 3:3 before eating of it? And Still your 'theologians' are so 'blind' and 'claim' that 'she didn't know' or that 'God could have warned her more' or 'she is incapable of knowing evil or the consequences before eating of the fruit?')
The ABSURDITY in their 'strange' UNBIBLICAL (NO Verse) claims should be 'obvious' to anyone with a 'sane mind' (1 Timothy 2:14).
Many still prefer to listen to the 'Serpent':
"The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!" (Genesis 3:4, NASB)
For the Serpent (Deceiver, Revelation 12:9) also Said next,
"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God..." - the Devil speaks (in Genesis 3:5, NASB)
Please don't be so gullible and remain deceived (2 Corinthians 11:3).
More Details:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/evil-the-problem-of-evil/
Comment:
Sin is missing the mark = includes NOT obeying Him.
Eve knew she was going to DIE if she ate the fruit (as her own mouth confesses it, Genesis 3:3) but she chose to believe the Serpent who said 'you won't die' (Genesis 3:4). She KNOWS and can REASON because of the ABILITY of CHOICE (and hence to 'understand' the consequence of a choice, e.g. 'that you will DIE if you eat this fruit' was UNDERSTOOD by EVE as the Verses Prove Irrefutably - so, God is NOT responsible for Evil and each 'bears his own sins').
Where does the Bible say that Eve was innocent or didn't understand the consequences of disobeying God, your Verse please? NO Verse says that right? That's 'why' your 'dubious claim' is 'false'.
3) Greek Experts Claim
Example: There's a "Koine" Greek expert who claims that Acts 16:31 teaches that if 'you believe' ----> then your 'household is automatically saved'. He claims that the Bible teaches that.
After claiming that and believing 'soul/spirit sleep' as well as there is 'no Hell', he continues to reveal 'how he got his understanding of Scripture as follows':
'I understand why commentaries have supplanted the Holy Spirit for those who need others to agree with them, but I have found it to be simpler and far more illuminating to rely on the Holy Spirit and the original texts.'
Reply
God is asking the household and you (both) to believe to be saved collectively in Acts 16:31. No house hold Salvation is meant sir.
You and your household ----> are exhorted likewise to -----> believe and you will be saved.
It's NOT Written ---> believe ----> and you and your household will be saved.
You and your household (mentioned short like this because it is a CONVERSATION - please take note and not a theological statement)
Here's a "Koine" Greek Scholar who also reads the Koine Greek the same way I read the English translation, to quote, Benson Commentary in Link below:
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/16-31.htm
If you still read it differently, no worries. You are entitled to your opinion and One Day God Will Prove one of us right in this. So the Holy Spirit of God told you that if you believe then your household is automatically saved? (the way you claim the Greek is?)
Please be 'careful' regarding what you 'claim' in His Holy Spirit including the 'Soul Sleep' thingy that you believe. There are 'Greek experts' claiming 'opposite things' but 'never explaining the Verse which contradicts them' ---> for example, I am yet to see a 'sensible' reply from a 'soul sleep Greek expert refuting Luke 23:43 where Christ says that TODAY, referring to the SAME DAY He DIED ---> He will be in Paradise with the Thief which I repeat ---> Proves Irrefutably that He was NOT Sleeping in the Grave in His Soul/Spirit for Three Days as these 'Koine Greek experts claim' ---> only His Body was in the Tomb and hence that Proves Irrefutably that only the BODY SLEEPS in the Grave when you die. Isn't it obvious?
No matter how many 'Koine Greek experts' or 'Jewish traditions believing that you may quote' ---> Christ's ACTUAL Example of what Happened when He Died Proves 'soul/spirit sleep' to be FALSE and HELL is REAL. Last but not least, I follow the EARLIEST KOINE GREEK experts in Biblical Theology from the EARLIEST CHURCH including the Validity of the Shepherd of Hermas too as explained in links below (it's NOT 'my theory' - I provide exegesis in accordance to their 'points' respecting Earliest Church Authority - not the later authorities which erred - to prove me wrong, you must show an authority 'earlier than the one I quote' who 'preached the same as you' - can you see this Irrefutably too now?)
- a) Hell is Real
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/hell-is-real/
- b) Hell in Church History
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/hell-in-church-history/
- c) Shepherd of Hermas – Afterlife Judgment and Repentance – FAQ
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-and-repentance-faq/
- d) Shepherd of Hermas – Afterlife Judgment Visions
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-visions/
- e) Secrets of the Gospel being Preached to the Dead
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-of-the-gospel-being-preached-to-the-dead/
- f) Lake of Fire – Hell and Death – HOPE under FIRE – Mystery – Resurrection of the Dead – Three Ages Mystery
- g) Salvation of All Men post Afterlife Judgments? – Must be Saved
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/salvation-of-all-men-post-afterlife-judgments-must-be-saved/
Conclusion
All False Teachings Contradict Verses.
"He who conceals hatred has lying lips, And he who spreads slander is a fool." (Proverbs 10:18, NASB)
'If you are afraid to preach the Truth of Scripture and confront the traditions of men like Lord Jesus Christ did, you are NOT called to Preach the Gospel, remember that' - Unknown
P/S: Never believe 'liars' or 'their hearts'
"A hateful man disguises himself with his speech, but he lays up deceit in his heart." (Proverbs 26:24, NASB)
'Repent or Perish!' - Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 13:5, NASB)
Why are you 'so angry'?
My friends often ask me (Benaiah Vincent , Michael Jp , Steven Sheng, Raymond Jayraj, ... those who came for a theological discussion last Tuesday at my house) --> 'now you know guys'.
"Jon, why are you so upset with that Theological Dialogue?"
Example: Please refer to Image.
P/S: I 'erased' the name to protect the privacy of that person.
This is a reason Christianity has so many denominations against 1 Corinthians 1:10 whenever they preach with NO Verses or against the 'EARLIEST authorities of the church' (before any of their denomination existed - God didn't start saving Christians only after their denominations - let that sink in).
Eastern Christians know this—surely we know this. At the Vigil of Pascha we declare the words of St John Chrysostom:
Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. Let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free.
Comment:
It is obvious that the 'earliest' leaders of the Church 'knew more' than what they usually share especially Speaking Mysteriously of the Universal Triumph of Christ (is Reflected in their words too).
They didn't make it obvious probably because:
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:6, NASB)
Please note 'carefully' in Verse above that only 'swines' ---> 'tear you to pieces'.
We don't persecute not kill anyone who disagree with us. See the difference? We can still be friends.
Irenaeus – Truth against Heretics – Universal Salvation in Christ
Heresies are Young, Truth is Old. Example: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-of-the-gospel-being-preached-to-the-dead/
"To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places." - apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:8 - 10, NASB)
'His Truth is Older than the AGES' = mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things (Ephesians 3:9, NASB)
I repeat: 'His Truth is Older than the AGES' = MYSTERY which for AGES has been HIDDEN in God who CREATED ALL THINGS (Ephesians 3:9, NASB)
Irenaeus (160-230 CE), Prescriptions Against Heretics IV, 27:211
‘the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching (evangelizantem) His advent there also and the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him’
So, is St. Irenaeus of Lyons a heretic too? Irenaeus seems to Explain the 'Resurrection' and that Christ Descended into Hell in the 'same way too', to quote:
If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day “in the lower parts of the earth” [Eph. 4:9] ; then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples [John 20:20, 27], He thus ascended to the Father; [if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the shadow of death” [Ps. 23:4], where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.
For 'all creation' too next to be liberated from sin eventually, to quote (from this same translation source):
For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God” [Rom. 8:19-21] .
It's ALL Creation because this being BORN AGAIN part is to be shared by ALL CREATION as it is Written in the 'next Verse' Irenaeus didn't mention above (but still in Context, and please recall that the Greek Word here refers to 'birth pangs' = implies the BORN AGAIN part agreeing to the Shepherd of Hermas discussed earlier too):
"For we know that ALL CREATION has been groaning as in the PAINS of CHILDBIRTH right up to the present time." - apostle Paul (Romans 8:22, NLT)
Please also note 'carefully' that the Making of ALL [Created] Things NEW (Revelation 21:5) which Irenaeus is referring to here does NOT mean that He 'replaces' some creation but rather that He Restores that same 'evil or damaged' creation back to being GOOD ONLY as the phrase "that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition" implies irrefutably. Well, Prophecy of Scripture is indeed NOT of any 'private interpretation' as this explanation as shown (in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20).
Who might have taught St. Irenaeus of Lyons? To quote from that 'same translation source':
'Saint Irenaeus (160-202 AD) was Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lion, France). He was an early Church futher and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a hearer of Policarp, who in turn was a disciple of John the Evangelist.'
His lineage of authority seems 'reliable' as follows:
John the Evangelist (Christ's Own Disciple in the Bible, Book of John, remember?) ----> Policarp ----> Irenaeus.
Checkmate.
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
How?
After Judgment,
Only faith, Hope, Love remains in the end (1 Corinthians 13). Romans 12:21 takes place and only Good remains after MERCY Triumphs Over and ENDS any afterlife Judgment Sentence (be it 'the eternal Hell' sentence too, James 2:13) ---> as the Last Word of Judgment is MERCY to ALL eventually as well (Romans 11:32) is Prophetically Promised ---> thereafter God fills all creation with Himself, 'All in all' eventually (1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28).
Indeed.
Law and Grace - Are we mixing it up?
A brief reply in image.
I repeat, Hell is "Real"
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/hell-is-real/
If you can't believe it now, it's ok. All will believe it after they die where some will be in it (Hell) first while others may escape it as God has Mercy on whom He Wills (Romans 9:15 - 16).
Link in image
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/hell-in-church-history/
Question
Is it wrong to do good and expect rewards?
Reply
Nothing wrong in that, Christ said seek your treasure in heaven (Matthew 6:20) and gave reasons to do good work without hoping anything in return so that your reward will be great in heaven (Luke 6:35).
If you truly desire 'nothing' from God, may your wish be fulfilled to prove yourself On Judgment Day by receiving nothing too for 'your good works'.
I believe in honesty in that Luke 6:35 mentions that though we are to expect no reward on earth, we may expect it from the Father in Heaven. God is Good Indeed.
Nothing is added to the Work of Christ because our works doesn't affect Salvation which is His Work Alone.
I repeat, our works only determines Judgment vs Rewards and NOT Salvation as the Bible Teaches (Revelation 22:12, Romans 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:13).
Please understand accurately and not make false accusations as it is one of the 10 Commandments.
By the way, where are the "Verses" for each accusation or claim that you made against me? (I see NO Verses at all. Your opinion condemning me doesn't bother me).
Comment:
Romans 10:3 speaks of trying to use one's own righteousness to attain Salvation which is impossible (John 5:39).
Truth is, our righteousness is for rewards and not Salvation (Romans 2:6, Revelation 22:12).
Gentile believers are Co-heirs in Christ (Romans 8:17).
1 Corinthians 14:37 ---> Commands for Gentile believers to obey too in any of apostle Paul's Writings. Acts 15 as well.
Thank you
Shalom
P/S: Am I Perfect?
Of course not, No one is except God.
I'm just like a dog who is learning to be loyal to His Master = Lord Jesus Christ Who gives me food and everything so freely. I will try to obey despite my failures. He is Justified in Condemning me (when I break His Law) and for Forgiving me as He Wills.
I respect His Decision because I can see how evil my heart is wanting to go against His Commands due to weakness in the flesh. Nevertheless, His Word remains True and may He help us to Keep to His Will.
I Couldn't believe that some 'soul sleeping defenders' actually 'think' that 'Today' and 'To-Day' are two different words in English itself.
(Please see Image for the Actual Theological Debate - I erased the Name to protect that person).
Example:
Question 1
What is "To Day" vs "Today"? Is there such a 'punctuation in Greek'?
There was no punctuation in the Ancient Greek, from which, the scriptures were translated. It was up to the translator, as to where to place a comma. Think grammar isn't a big deal? Here is how comma placement turns truth to a lie.
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (KJV)
Reply 1
This word is a single word and there is NO Punctuation 'claim' at all here. Today has nothing to do with punctuation. What is "to day"? It's "today" in Old English (KJV). You're making a joke out of yourself. Please reply something "sensible" by respecting His Holy Word.
Question 2
What is the actual Greek Word in Concern here?
Reply 2
The Greek Word in Luke 23:43.
"Semeron" (Kooine Greek - Transliterated) = "Today" (NASB) = "To Day" (KJV - as you claim)
Question 3
What's the meaning of the Greek WORD "Semeron"?
Reply 3
The Greek Word "Semeron" (Luke 23:43) ONLY means TODAY in the Lexicon.
Question 4
What's the Old English meaning of "To Day" or "To-Day"?
Reply 4
The Old English meaning of "To Day" is "Today". It's an irony that I have to point to you the meaning of the English Word because English should be closer to 'your mother tongue or that you seem to be a native speaker in it'.
"To Day" (Old English) = "Today" (Modern English)
Question 5
The point is He told him that day. And not that he was in paradise. He told him that day. He was not in paradise that day is my point. I mean no disrespect but it is important. That's what I said.... in the tomb physical death however it doesn't prove your agenda that Jesus was in the tomb for three days and three nights. Was Jesus in paradise that day???
Reply 5
Do you have problem reading it in English?
Your point is a "lie". Lord Jesus Christ said to the thief on the Cross that he will be in Paradise the SAME DAY both of them were Crucified.
Today (Luke 23:43) = The SAME DAY they were Crucified.
So, He is in Paradise with His Spirit with Soul just like the others say in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:19 - 31, 1 Peter 3:18 - 20, Acts 2:27). Only His BODY was in the TOMB for THREE DAYS.
*Please see Image for the 'proofs' (claimed)
Conclusion
'Sorry to burst the Bubble of LIES you have been believing in'
"Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent." (Proverbs 17:28, NASB).
P/S:
I'm so sorry but it's SO FUNNY.
Is this your 'Biblical Scholars' that you follow?
Please observe 'carefully' how they 'handle or interpret the Blessed Word of God' ---> in a WRONG manner having NO Respect for it at all (arguing just 'to prove themselves right by uttering whatever LIES they can').
Martin Luther (the protestant reformer) and William Tyndale (the first translator of the Bible to English) also believed in the LIE of 'soul sleeping' though they are 'theological experts too' as it's discussed in post below:
Protestant Reformers – with a Serious Doctrinal Error – Soul Sleep
Martin Luther and William Tyndale would be 'proud of these'.
Warning: You try to 'mock' the Word of God by claiming things AGAINST Holy Scripture, you will become a 'Joke' (regardless if you are Martin Luther or William Tyndale) as this example has shown.
'Let your loyalty be to Lord Jesus Christ and NOT to Martin Luther or William Tyndale or any other man'.
I am ALLOWED by Holy Scripture to REBUKE them SEVERELY (as they are 'their leaders') as the Verse below gives me this RIGHT:
"This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth." - apostle Paul (Titus 1:13 - 14, NASB)
Question 6
The "Today" refers to His "Kingdom".
Reply 6
TODAY you will be with ME in Paradise is Written here (in Luke 23:43). Christ didn't refer to His Kingdom though they thief asked to be 'remembered' in it.
Yes, the thief asked to remembered in His Kingdom but CHRIST gave him RIGHTS to IMMEDIATELY be in PARADISE TODAY as Well (Regions 'beyond' Abraham's Bosom, Luke 16:19 - 31). The "Paradise" of God EXISTED even before His 1000 Millennial Reign is to be in the future (Genesis 3:24 as "Paradise" is where the "Tree of Life" is Located in the "Garden of Eden" - Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2).
Before Christ has Died, perhaps NO ONE could enter into "Paradise" (Genesis 3:24) itself but on that SAME DAY ( or TODAY) when He Died, Lord Jesus Christ Opened Up the entrance to "Paradise" (Luke 23:43) where some of the SAINTS of the Past obtained their "Resurrection" just AFTER Christ (Matthew 27:52 - 53) having eaten of the TREE of LIFE which is in the Midst of the "Paradise" of God where the exhortation is given to us Likewise (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2).
The First Resurrection is later for the Time Period at the End of this Age (Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 18) when His Marriage Happens with His Church (inclusive of the Old Testament Saints too, Hebrews 11:40, Revelation 19:7 - 9, Revelation 21:9) with whom He Will be coming too (Jude 1:14, Revelation 19:11 - 21) from the ENDS of the HEAVENS and EARTH too (Mark 13:27).
The Lion of Lyons Speaks:
"Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable." --- St. Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.), author of 'Against Heresies' and the 'hearer of Polycarp, the Disciple of John the Beloved of Lord Jesus Christ'
Source:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
Does a Comma make a difference in Luke 23:43?
You decide. Here are the facts:
There's no 'comma' in Greek and you cannot add that and explain it via English grammar.
Also, the WORD is still the SAME if the comma is added 'after today'as you claim.
"TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise"
NO Change in meaning.
TODAY = still the SAME DAY He and the thief were crucified on the Cross.
Looks neat, thanks for the 'comma',
What if the non-existent comma is added after Today in Luke 23:43?
Let's learn some English too:
He didn't say,
"TODAY, you will be [remembered] with me in Paradise"
but He said,
"TODAY, you will be with me in Paradise"
TODAY ----> that SAME DAY He was Crucified ---> IN Paradise = 'enter into Paradise'.
IN = enter in, or be inside of
Checkmate
Yepp. TODAY , Christ and the thief are in Paradise (in their souls, Luke 16:19 - 31 description of the afterlife). It's 'ok' if you still insist on 'soul sleep'. You can 'sleep' while we will be in Paradise and the afterlife blessed regions such as Abraham's Bosom. May it be done according to your faith. Cheers.
P/S:
A Parable CANNOT use IMAGINARY objects. Checkmate, again. So Hades must exist as it is Described in Luke 16:19 - 31 even if it has an allegorical meaning to double it.
Death has Covenant with the Body only (Psalm 49:14).
While Sheol or Hades has Covenant with the Soul/Spirit (Luke 16:19 - 31, Psalm 49:15).
That's why there is DEATH and HADES/SHEOL distinctly (not the same thing, Revelation 20:14 where the final Victory is God Redeeming From both, Hosea 13:14, Isaiah 28:15 with Isaiah 28:18, 1 Corinthians 15:55).
The Moses example highlighted just now proves this Claim 'Irrefutably'.
It's a vision at the Transfiguration which is REAL and that's REALLY MOSES and ELIJAH (Luke 9:33) just like apostle John's Vision in revelation too, at one point he speaks to the 'elder' which is REAL too (Revelation 5:5).
You may carry on 'sleeping', cheers
Question
Scripture says three days and nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.....are we to assume it means dead for that length of time
Reply
That's His Soul as St. Iraneous of Lyons explains:
"If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day “in the lower parts of the earth” [Eph. 4:9] ; then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples [John 20:20, 27], He thus ascended to the Father; [if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the shadow of death” [Ps. 23:4], where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God."
Source:
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
If you reject it, or have your 'own fake explanation', I am NOT interested.
I believe in what St, Iraneous of Lyons said in the above.
You may 'believe whatever you want'.
Cheers
Contradiction or Wisdom?
It's not a contradiction in the Bible but a 'choice' to do 'either way' (Verse in Image).
We must decide whether to answer or not as Christ also demonstrated as follows:
(i) Christ answers Pilate regarding the question 'Are you the King of the Jews?' (Matthew 27:11 in Principle of Proverbs 26:5).
(ii) Christ does NOT answer Pilate (the 'same person') when Pilate asks about the 'false' charges brought 'against Him' (Matthew 27:13 - 14 in Principle of Proverbs 26:4).
Context?
Consecutive Verses in Matthew 27:11, 13 - 14. Can you 'see' how Christ Fulfilled the Verses in Image at the 'same time' (Proverbs 26:4 - 5)?
Brilliant, isn't He?
Blessed be His Holy Name!
That's 'reality' as you cannot be 'answering all the time' or 'not answering all the time', right? Yes, the Bible's Law are 'real'.
Hell - Denying Hell?
Here are some "real" questions to ponder:
Personal logic is useless because it's an opinion.
To prove that it's not an opinion,
you need "real" Church History.
None of which you seem to have.
Please quote one example,
I implore you
instead of "repeating yourself" with "no proof".
So, all the earliest church leaders are wrong
about the existence of hell and you are right?
And Christ Spoke of an imaginary Description of Hades?
There's nothing logical in such claims.
Conclusion
The real question you should be asking is this:
Who is the "first" person to believe the same as what you believe In Church History?
For me, it's Clement of Alexandria to even Gregory of Nyssa to Isaac Of Nineveh to even Sadhu Sundar Singh. Some aspects with Iraneous and even Tertulian regarding Hell too.
If such an earliest person doesn't exist, maybe you are the first in your belief, congratulations. However, I prefer Clement of Alexandria primarily.
I don't believe in personal interpretations or your logic but Scripture and actual Church History.
If none can be quoted in the earliest church believing it as you do or charge Christ with confusing the masses with a Description of Hades which is not literal, I don't stand with you on this.
P/S: One Reliable Witness, Please:
Please quote one person in church history that believed same as you (name and date). So Christ spoke of an imaginary Hades that doesn't exist that way to confuse everybody? I will stick to that literal interpretation of Hades which was believed by non-eternal-Hell believing theologians such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen. God chose to keep it hidden and didn't want reveal it earlier (surprise!).
Someone said: Paul said that he had imparted the WHOLE counsel of God. Paul never mentioned Hell once. Curious indeed!
Reply: Apostle Paul 'skipped' the Judgment Details and Spoke of the End. He announced God's Victory over Death and Hades in the End (1 Corinthians 15:55) but never 'described' that Victory because He 'skipped' the Judgment details, proving this claim irrefutably in 'his own words'. Apostle Paul mentioned the final Judgment as 'age-during destruction' in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 proving that 'he knows about it' though 'he never explained the details' again, proving this 'Biblical Claim'.
P/S:
Death and Hades is Hell now and later too when it is thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14) proving that it exists till that Day and contains "the dead" too.
Hades described as per Luke 16:19 - 31. Your unbelief regarding it doesn't change Truth as even Clement of Alexandria and Origen believed in Purgatorial Hell Universalism as I pointed out in other posts.
Hope Beyond Hell from Syria - a 1983 Discovery
To quote:
But in 1983 Sebastian Brock discovered in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, the complete text of a group of discourses that were virtually unknown in the Byzantine and Latin Churches. Unlike the well known homilies belonging to the First Part, translated into English under the title The Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian, these other discourses had never been translated into Greek nor into any other language (except perhaps Arabic). That they existed was known to scholars, but the one extant text in Iran was lost in 1918. And then Brock made his remarkable discovery, and in 1995 he published an English translation of the text under the riveting title The Second Part. In this volume we find three homilies specifically devoted to the Last Things. These three eschatological homilies, chapters 39, 40, and 41, reveal an Isaac of Nineveh whose understanding of hell was far more original and daring than previously suspected outside the Syrian Christian world: the damned may be “scourged by the scourge of love,” but the scourging is not forever!
As we have seen, underlying Isaac’s reflections on eschatology is his fierce conviction that retributive punishment is incompatible with the God of absolute and infinite love. Our Father wills, always wills, our good. He does not inflict unnecessary pain. If he chastises, it is always with the aim of our conversion and sanctification:
For it would be most odious and utterly blasphemous to think that hate or resentment exists with God, even against demonic beings; or to imagine any other weakness, or passibility, or whatever else might be involved in the course of retribution of good or bad as applying, in a retributive way, to that glorious divine Nature. Rather, He acts towards us in ways He knows will be advantageous to us, whether by way of things that cause suffering, or by way of things that cause relief, whether they cause joy or grief, whether they are insignificant or glorious: all are directed towards the single eternal good, whether each receives judgement or something of glory from Him—not by way of retribution, far from it!—but with a view to the advantage that is going to come from all these things. …
That is how everything works with Him, even though things may seem otherwise to us: with Him it is not a matter of retribution, but He is always looking beyond to the advantage that will come from His dealing with humanity. And one such thing is this matter of Gehenna. (II.39.3,5)
And one such thing is this matter of Gehenna—even perdition is encompassed within God’s salvific plan for humanity. Even hell can be used by God for our good.
Source: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/st-isaac-the-syrian-the-triumph-of-the-kingdom-over-gehenna/
This Great Biblical Mystery is Deeper than you think, to quote (from the same source again, above):
Accordingly we say that, even in the matter of the afflictions and sentence of Gehenna, there is some hidden mystery, whereby the wise Maker has taken as a starting point for its future outcome the wickedness of our actions and wilfulness, using it as a way of bringing to perfection His dispensation wherein lies the teaching which makes wise, and the advantage beyond description, hidden from both angels and human beings, hidden too from those who are being chastised, whether they be demons or human beings, hidden for as long as the ordained period of time holds sway. (II.39.20)
Another quote:
Wacław Hryniewicz (2007) argues that Brocks translation (1995) of the Second Part of Isaac's writings on Gehenna (discovered 1983) confirm claims of earlier Universalist historians such as John Wesley Hanson (1899) that Isaac was an advocate of universal reconciliation.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_of_Nineveh
P/S: What a Coincidence?
I was born in 1983 too.
If St. Isaac the Syrian can believe and preach all these, I can do likewise and go to heaven too, right?
Are you sure that I'm the heretic in light of all these and Verses quoted in various posts?
Please 'think deeply' because One Day we are all going to Stand before Him, Blessed be His Holy Name, Lord Jesus Christ, Saviour of the World!
Age or Eternal?
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In This Verse (Matthew 28:20), the word translated as "age" is the same Greek Root Word as the one Describing the 'eternal punishment' (age-during punishment, more accurately) for the 'wicked' in Matthew 25:46.
"These will go away into eternal [age-singular] punishment,
but the righteous into eternal [age-singular] life."
- Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:46, NASB)
"teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the END of the AGE."
- Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:20, NASB)
Can you see it?
Lord Jesus Christ's OWN WORDS
Defines an 'age' (or 'aion' or 'eon' - transliterated Greek)
to have an END and NOT eternal.
P/S: World or Age
The 'scholars' claim that 'age' can sometimes mean 'world' as some translate Matthew 28:20 in that manner are all 'false' because the Greek Word for World is 'Cosmos (Kosmos)' as it occurs in John 3:16 or 1 John 2:2, Romans 1:20, Mark 16:15, 1 John 4:14 etc. To make this claim Biblically 'irrefutable', there's NO need for 'any contextual' reasons in Biblical Koine Greek to use aion (eon) to refer to 'world' as BOTH WORDS can occur in the SAME SENTENCE (proving 'no need' for such 'twisting' in 'Factual Statements') as it is Proven in Verse below:
"Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the Sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:26, NASB)
Can you see it? I repeat, with EMPHASIS:
"These will go away into eternal [AGE-singular] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [AGE-singular] life." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:46, NASB)
"Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the WORLD [Kosmos]; but now once at the consummation of the AGES [Aion-plural] He has been manifested to put away sin by the Sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:26, NASB)
The Bible Tells you the Meaning of "Age" or "Aion" by its Usage itself. The Bible Tells you the Meaning of "Age" or "Aion" by its Usage itself. The 'next age' (AGE2) is NOT eternal either as popularly erred but ENDS too (Matthew 12:32) because there are at least TWO AGES to COME (AGE2,AGE3, Ephesians 2:7). Let Scripture interpret Scripture – Clement of Alexandria
Immortality Theorem - Immortality is not age during life
Immortality - A Secret for Christians
Do you know that the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 - 6) for Christians only happens at least 1000 years before the Final Great White Throne Judgment (Matthew 25:31 - 46, Revelation 20:11 - 15) as "the dead in Christ will RISE FIRST" (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 18)?
This means that Christians (Sheepfold1) are already "Immortals" 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:4 - 6, Luke 20:36) being the "Sons of the Resurrection" and hence when they obtain "age - during life" (in AGE2, Matthew 25:46) having their names Written in the Book of Life too, it's a life of rewards in the time period of AGE2 together with Sheepfold2.
So, as a Christian, you are already an "immortal" (Luke 20:36) at least 1000 years earlier (Revelation 20:4 - 6) before Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11 - 15) itself and thus "age-during life" (in AGE2, next age, Revelation 20:11 - 15, Matthew 25:46) has nothing to do with "eternal life" being given on this Day of Judgment. Can you "understand" it irrefutably now?
"for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute." - Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 21:15, NASB)
Can you see it?
That life toward immortality transcends beyond after God becomes all in all toward all Creation later in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28) being set free from sin (vanity, futility) too sharing in this "aspect or area" of our Liberty (Romans 8:20 - 22).
Blessed be Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World!
P/S:
The rest of the dead have "no" hope (1 Thessalonians 4:13, Revelation 20:5) in being part of this First Resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 18).
Taking the Bible "as it is Written" solves these 'Deep Mysteries', doesn't it?
God is the GENIUS Indeed because 'only the Riddle Creator' Knows the Answers to His Riddles (Psalm 78:2, Matthew 13:35)
Peace to you
Please don't 'miss' out by Speaking Truthfully regarding Him:
"And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever." (Daniel 12:3, YLT)
"Purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined are MANY: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked understand, and those acting wisely do understand;" (Daniel 12:10, YLT)
"To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." (Proverbs 21:3, NIV)
Resurrection - Christians vs the Rest of the Dead
Voice of an archangel and a trumpet sounds (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at this "last trumpet" on the Day of His Return refers to the "First Resurrection" only (the 'Christian' dead only) ----> because it's this "secret" relating to the "First Resurrection" being discussed here (1 Corinthians 15:51) ----> where "the (Christian, Sheepfold1, John 10:14) dead" shall be raised incorruptible while "we the (Christian, Sheepfold1, John 10:14) who are alive shall be changed" (Context of Consecutive Verses in 1 Corinthians 15:52).
So, when it happens, Death Swallowed up in Victory applies to us, believers during this First Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:54 - 55).
Apostle Paul is highlighting (not limiting) how these Verses relate to a believer being Part of the First Resurrection and obtaining Immortality or Incorruptibility first (Luke 20:36) just prior to the 1000 year reign (where the rest of the dead is NOT referred to here yet in this highlight or secret, discussion, Revelation 20:4 - 6) which can be understood by putting these Verses in the timeline as described.
The timeline is the First Resurrection since this is the one pertaining to believers only, His Bride (Revelation 20:4 - 6).
The rest of the dead only live after the 1000 years are up (Revelation 20:5) where some of them get age-during life (Sheepfold2) vs chastisement (Goat, Wicked) for betterment ("kolasin") accordingly in the next AGE2 (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29, 1 Peter 4:6) during Judgment Day (Matthew 25:31 - 46, Revelation 20:11 - 15, 1 Peter 4:5).
P/S: Further Details
I see afterlife Judgment even now as Luke 16:19 - 31 mentions as even Clement of Alexandria have taught.
But some of them get to hear the Gospel and repent there as God Wiils (1 Peter 3:18 - 19) and is explained as ongoing in the Shepherd of Hermas Writing or even Clement of Alexandria or Iraneous & more recently, Sadhu Sundar Singh too. I believe that.
The wicked may not get this chance in the afterlife being reserved for punishment even in the Lake of Fire next.
The ones who get to see and believe (John 6:40, John 3:14 - 15) and be saved in the afterlife will be Sheepfold2 (John 10:16) who do NOT get any part of the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 - 6) but obtain their "Resurrection to life" based on "Good Deeds" on Judgment Day having their names in the Book of Life (Romans 2:6 - 7, Revelation 20:11 -15, John 5:28 - 29) where some of these are surprised that the Good Deeds which they have done are considered to be doing it to the Lord (Matthew 25:31 - 46).
These are NOT Saved by Good Works but by MERCY only being shown to Sheepfold2 by God and they get rewards for their good deeds accordingly.
Conclusion
The "Resurrection of the Dead" is the Topic which even the "experts in the Torah" such as the Pharisees 'failed' to "understand" & the reason for it is "not knowing Scriptures" "nor the Power of God":
"But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:29 - 30, NASB)
Here's an example (in link below) of a popular error of "soul sleeping" in regards to the "Resurrection of the Dead" Topic of which even both 'Martin Luther and William Tyndale' ("experts") erred too (if the experts of the Torah of the past can err, so can the modern experts too - please read both sides and decide for yourselves which is right? - Luke 12:57 to Luke 12:59 too, "Context" ----> 'only till the last penny' -- DEEP if you UNDERSTAND this):
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/traditions-of-men-faq/
If your Pastor says that Scripture must be interpreted with His Holy Spirit (which is True and Blessed be His Holy Spirit) ----> ask your Pastor back, "Did Martin Luther (the Protestant reformer who judged the Catholic Church to be wrong) or William Tyndale (the first translator of the Bible to English)" -----> speak by the Holy Spirit when they taught "soul sleep" and even DARED claim that the Rich Man and Lazarus Story Spoken by Lord Jesus Christ is NOT LITERAL as how the 'earliest Church leaders' (e. g. Iraneous to Clement of Alexandria to Origen, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa to even St. Isaac of Nineveh and more recently Sadhu Sundar Singh too) taught "similarly to Christ's LITERAL Interpretation of it"?
Let's learn to "think" and NOT blindly follow their 'claims' against Holy Scripture having the "real Berean Attitude - more NOBLE minded" (Acts 17:11).
Who is the "real prophet" or "spiritual Christian"?
The 'real test' to PROVE 'who is a real Christian Prophet' or a 'Spiritual Christian' is NOT 'charity works or good works' (as even Satan has plenty of that, 2 Corinthians 11:13 - 15) ----> but ONLY this VERSE DIRECTLY ---> which points to ONLY those who PREACH and ACCEPT apostle Paul's WRITTEN COMMANDS of the New Testament (e.g. 1 Corinthians 14:34 or 1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:27 - 28, 1 Corinthians 11:6 - 7, 10 etc.) ----> as the COMMANDS of THE LORD (1 Corinthians 14:37, 2 Peter 3:2) ----> to SPEAK the SAME as APOSTLE PAUL too (1 Corinthians 1:10-KJV, 1 Corinthians 11:1) are the TRUE New Testament PROPHETS and SPIRITUAL CHRISTIANS as 1 Corinthians 14:37 Reveals Irrefutably (are you going to 'follow mere men' who teach AGAINST it by quoting 'earthly NO Verse reasons as they did with "soul sleep too"?' Matthew 24:35).
No one goes to Hell by Preaching the New Testament Verses such as 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2:12 or 1 Corinthians 11:6 - 7, 10 etc., ---> 1 Corinthians 11:1, 1 Corinthians 4:16, Philippians 3:17, 1 Thessalonians 1:6, Cheers.
Isn't it more important to do "charity works" or " ministry"? (examples of 'work' or "sacrifice"? I'm pretty sure the Pharisees would have accused likewise toward Lord Jesus Christ or His Disciples too; please decide for yourselves after reading these Verses "carefully"):
"To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." (Proverbs 21:3, NIV)
"Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22, NASB)
"Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required." (Psalm 40:6, NASB)
How about believers who are too "afraid" to Judge 'which is Biblical Truth'? (and NOT spending time Judging another's personal sins & gossips but rather Searching or Judging the ACCURATE meaning of Scripture only - Acts 17:11 like the NOBLE minded Bereans pointed out earlier as well):
"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psalm 37:30, KJV)
All prophets confronted their "own" religious leaders of their time highlighting the latter's false teachings instead of 'pretending that nothing is wrong' and continuing to do 'charity works instead' and we ought to follow such Biblical Ways (Acts 7:52).
Biblical Truth points to the Irrefutable Fact that the "Resurrection of the Dead" affects ALL MEN in the CONTEXT of being "MADE ALIVE" by Lord Jesus Christ eventually even toward the WICKED too (Truly God Alone is Good to All, Romans 5:18 - 19), example:
"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the Resurrection of the Dead. For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22, NASB)
A True Teaching regarding the HOPE for the Resurrection of the Dead includes the WICKED too and keeps a 'clear conscience before men & God' and shows understanding in "accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets":
" ... I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men." - apostle Paul (Acts 24:15, NASB)
The non-Christians have "no hope" (1 Thessalonians 4:13) in the "context" of NOT being part of the BLESSED HOPE which includes of Participating in the FIRST RESURRECTION (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 18, Revelation 20:4 - 6) during "His Glorious Return" (Titus 2:13) which is "in context" of "Christ bringing SALVATION to ALL MEN eventually" (Titus 2:11) too as even the irrefutable context of consecutive verses ("Topic") in 1 Thessalonians 4 & Titus itself proves irrefutably. Are we 'able' to "understand" Holy Scripture accurately to such 'fine details'?
Example Posts (with further links inside for deeper explanation of 'details' with Verses and Reliable exegesis from 'earliest Church History' too), please consider the links below:
(i) Immortality Theorem – Immortality is not age during life
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/immortality-theorem-immortality-is-not-age-during-life/
(ii) Age or Eternal?
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/age-or-eternal/
(iii) Lake of Fire – Death and Hades – Second Death – Last Things
What is the danger of false teachings?
"Woe to you experts in the law! You have taken away the key to knowledge. You didn't go in yourselves, and you hindered those who were trying to go in." - Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:52, NASB)
P/S: How about a 'wrong concept of Hell - based evangelism?'
Did Christ say that 'at least some Gentiles now know YHWH through your evangelism' (making 'converts' or 'proselytes') which is 'better than doing nothing'?
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:15, NASB)
Example: Did the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Christ Speak of the 'same' concept of "Hell"?
To quote from the excellent write-up on ‘aionion kolasin’ by Rev. Dr John Wesley Hanson (from his book Aion-Aionous) :
Alluding to the Pharisees, he says:
“They believe that the wicked are detained in an everlasting prison [eirgmon aidion] subject to eternal punishment” [aidios timoria]; and the Essenes [another Jewish sect] “allotted to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing punishment [timoria adialeipton], where they suffer a deathless punishment, [athanaton timorian].”
"If Jesus intended to teach the doctrine held by the jews, would he not have used the terms they used? Assuredly; but He did not. He threatened age-lasting, or long-enduring discipline to the believers in endless punishment.
Aiónion was His word while theirs was aidion, adialeipton, orathanaton, — thus rejecting their doctrines by not only not employing their phraseology, but by using always and only those words connected with punishment, that denote limited suffering."
More: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/matthew-2546-punishment-of-men-aionion-kolasin/
Peace to you
Matthew 10:28 – A Note on Matthew 10:28
Two Different Things here:
"fear not" ---> the ones who kill the "body" and do nothing more.
"fear the One" ---> has the Power to Destroy both "soul ad body" in Hell (Gehenna).
The rest is just 'opinions' (not a Verse).
Regarding reading ALL of Matthew 10, here's a 'simple' exegesis:
The "fear not" is because He is telling that the Father is with them and thus "they need not fear others on earth" as the Context of Matthew 10:28 proves irrefutably where He explains that "fear the One" Who is able to destroy both BODY and SOUL in GEHENNA ONLY (that's the 'real' meaning of reading ALL of the passage).
The rest of the passage speaks of "fear not" in regards to "this life" (on earth) and NOT Gehenna (afterlife). You 'missed' the 'all' of the passage.
P/S: How to Properly Understand Hell or the Judgment of God?
He gives back their violence back to them (Isaiah 3:11). You don't understand His Judgment (exactly equal, nothing more, nothing less during Judgment in Hell, James 2:13 ---> 'Judgment with NO mercy to the one having shown no mercy').
He OVERCOMES Evil by Good (Romans 12:21) after that Judgment ---> James 2:13 ---> MERCY Triumphs (ENDS) that previous 'Judgment with no Mercy first' (all context shown 'within' the 'same Verse' itself).
Read Revelation.
Look around you, the lion tears their prey. Who Created that?
Even Nature disproves your myth that 'God never uses Violence'.
People died in the Noah's Flood, right?
So, if God didn't send that Flood? Then, that's a false teaching.
If God send the Flood, it's because their sins match that level of suffering they caused on others (in Principle of Isaiah 3:11).
Nothing 'difficult' except if you are in a 'cult'.
P/S 2:
He Himself described Luke 16:19 - 31 and Parables cannot use imaginary things implying that the Description of "Hades" (Sheol) is REAL and LITERAL.
You are right in quoting:
"I think the words of Jesus-as-He-Lived trump all the speculations of prophets."
It's ok if you still see it differently, Thanks mate, I have heard that in many ways before.
It doesn't speak of 'all' especially the 'Judgment, Hate, Wrath, Hell etc.'
They missed all that.
I prefer say Clement of Alexandria who didn't speak as thus but acknowledged Hell to as did even St, Isaac of Nineveh.
Peace
Taking Sides - Which Side are you on?
"Neither" in Principle of these Verses:
"Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?”
He said, “No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?”
The captain of the LORD’S host said to Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so." (Joshua 5:13 - 15, NASB)
Theological Joke of the Day
You are afraid to believe in Luke 16:19 - 31, that's all.
If the saints such as Clement of Alexandria (the Real KOINE GREEK EXPERT) or St. Iraneous of Lyons understood Luke 16:19 - 31 LITERALLY, no 'modern scholarship' of 'Koine Greek' can Prove otherwise, LOL - Can't you see it?
Lake of Fire - Secrets of Revelation - It is Finished!
It is Done = It is Finished (Prophetically Mentioned on the Cross too before it comes to pass even, e. g. the SUBJECTION of ALL [Created] things in LOVE to Him eventually as Hebrews 2:8 with 1 Corinthians 15:27 means as well PROPHETICALLY till God Finally becomes ALL in All in the END, 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28).
"Then He said to me, “It is Done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. " (Revelation 21:6 - 7, NASB)
(i) The "thirsty" or "failed" ones
"the one who thirsts" (Revelation 21:6) -----> The FAILED ones who have "their part in the Lake of Fire first" (Revelation 21:8) -----> "I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost." (Revelation 21:6)
(ii) The "Overcomers" or Successful ones
"He who overcomes will inherit these things" (Revelation 21:7) -----> "and I will be his God and he will be My son." (Revelation 21:7)
Conclusion
The "Bride" (Overcomers) calls out MERCY with His Spirit toward the "thirsty" ones from the "Lake of Fire" to 'drink freely from the River of Life' which flows outside too as 'a River flows':
"The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost." (Revelation 22:17, NASB)
"Without Cost" = "freeely" = "NOT earning this part by obedience or anything" to eventually 'drink from the River of Life'.
Can you see the Mercy and Perfection of God toward His Enemies too?
P/S: A Warning
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus." (Revelation 22:18 - 20, NASB)
This the HOPE of the GOSPEL toward ALL CREATION too (that He Will Set it FREE from SIN & its EFFECTS eventually as well):
“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in HOPE that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and suffers the pains of childbirth TOGETHER until now.” (Romans 8:20 – 22, NASB)
“because in Him were CREATED ALL things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and unto Him.
and by Him to RECONCILE ALL things to Himself, having made Peace by the Blood of His Cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
if indeed you continue in the faith, established and firm, and not being moved away from the HOPE of the GOSPEL that you have heard, having been Proclaimed in ALL CREATION under heaven, of which I Paul have become a minister.” (Colossians 1:16, 20, 23, NASB)
How about non-living created things? How does He Reconcile those?
Please visit the Post below:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/reconcile-all-things/
How about plants and animals as being part of all created things? Please consider the post below for further edification:
Reconcile All created things – How about Plants and Animals?
Theme: RESTORATION of All [Created] Things, post Judgment too, an example Verse:
"whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive [Lord Jesus] till times of a restitution [Restoration] of ALL [Created] things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.” (Acts 3:21, YLT)
Yes, the ‘Restoration of All things’ (Acts 3:21) is beyond Israel or Christian things only as even these examples clearly prove —> Sodom & Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of ‘eternal fire’, right (Jude 1:7)? But it is said to be ‘Restored’ at a ‘later time’ (Ezekiel 16:53)?
“But someday I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and Samaria, and I will restore you, too.” (Ezekiel 16:53, NLT)
So, the ‘Gospel being preached to all creation’ (Mark 16:15) including non-rational creation and non-living objects makes sense in that ‘His Holy Word’ for the ‘Restoration of All things’ (Acts 3:21) through the ‘being Born Again’ (John 3:3, John 3:7) past the ‘birth pang period of Judgment’ (Matthew 24:8) which affects “All Creation” too (Romans 8:22) where this ‘same All Creation’ will be ‘set Free by Him’ being Perfected & Sinless in the Glorious Liberty of the Children of God eventually (Romans 8:21) making “All things New” (Revelation 21:5) and “Beautiful” (Ecclesiastes 3:11).
Can we really understand it?
The Gospel’s Spoken Word of God Will Heal All Creation in Its Own Time as the Preaching of the Gospel to All Creation in the World implies (Mark 16:15) and His Ransom for “All” (All Creation in the World) will come to pass according to His Perfect Immutable Will being ‘Testified or a Testimony’ when it is ‘Fulfilled, Achieved, Applied’ to “All” in its own respective Divinely-appointed-Kairois (plural)-Times for this as it is Written Prophetically in 1 Timothy 2:6.
“Who did give himself a Ransom for ALL [Creation in the World, 1 John 2:2, Mark 16:15]— the Testimony in its own Times –” (1 Timothy 2:6, YLT)
[Emphasis Mine throughout]
Indeed, The Gospel is for “all creation” even if the non-rational living thing or non-living objects cannot ‘hear’ the Gospel but it is certain that the Preaching of the Gospel includes a Restoration for them as well as part of the “all created things” (as His Word by the Preaching too Will Fulfill His Will, as His Words never pass away but will accomplish the thing for which it is sent), as ‘it is written’:
“And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” (Mark 16:15, NASB)
“Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself” — Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
Is it Conciliation or Reconciliation or Both in the END?
Please consider it discussed 'later' in the write up below (question 3):
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lie-vs-truth-eternal-hell-or-universal-reconciliation-in-lord-jesus-christ/
Blessed be Lord Jesus Christ the All Overcoming Majestic Saviour of the World for His All Triumphant MERCY to ALL eventually as the 'Last or Final Word of Judgment' (Romans 11:32, James 2:13, Romans 9:15 - 16, Titus 3:5, Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, 1 Timothy 4:10).
More?
From the 'Shepherd of Hermas':
15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall SEE the kingdom of God, …”
So, SEEing His Kingdom is ONLY for those being BORN AGAIN (John 3:3). The Shepherd of Hermas implies that the WICKED will SEE His Kingdom and hence MUST be BORN AGAIN too (15[92]:3) and this is Proven Irrefutably in Verse below where being BORN AGAIN (Romans 8:20 – 21) where this aspect of the Sons of God, (His Elect – Romans 8:19) is SHARED by ALL CREATION eventually (Romans 8:22):
To Quote:
All Creation (Romans 8:22) —> will be BORN AGAIN (as the Greek Word in Romans 8:22 refers to ‘Birth Pangs’ Implying this, and has the Word ALL in front of ‘Creation’) —> in the Aspect of ‘liberty from Vanity or Decay, the corruption of sin’ causing ‘sin to cease to exist eventually’ as it is mentioned first in Immediate Consecutive Verses (Romans 8:20 – 21) —> where we, the ‘believers in faith’ (of ‘church’) are ‘more special’ inheriting more than just that (as the Verse earlier in Romans 8:19 describes the ‘rest of creation’ awaiting this).
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-visions/
How to understand Hell? Please visit link below for details:
An Important Question to Ponder
What is 'so great' about 'our love' toward 'our family, friends, church, race, creed, religion and those who love us back' (and never goes beyond it mostly, Luke 6:32) as Opposed to God's Perfect LOVE [Agape] which includes His ENEMIES as well (Matthew 5:44 - 48)?
'Die for Christ, nothing else' - Anonymous
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." - apostle John (John 15:13, NASB)
From the 'other' John 3:16
"We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." - apostle John (1 John 3:16, NASB)
Why? What is Love?
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." - apostle John (1 John 4:10, NASB)
Before you say it... Full Atonement
"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." - apostle John, again (in 1 John 2:2, NASB)
In the End, HIS LOVE (1 Corinthians 13) implies MERCY only:
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has MERCY." - apostle Paul (Romans 9:16, NASB)
Proof that Sadhu Sundar Singh (from our recent time) is a reliable Witness to this Exegesis as well as a Christian Universalist? Please consider link below, thank you:
Christ Himself is the 'Merciful One':
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:7, NASB)
A rarely known Christian Prophecy Regarding Christ Saving from Hell or the Final Judgment itself? To quote:
"After describing the destruction of the world, which Sibyl prophesies, and the consignments of the wicked to aionion torment, such as our Lord teaches in Matt. 25:46, the blessed inhabitants of heaven are represented as being made wretched by the thought of the sufferings of the lost, and as beseeching God with united voice to release them. God consents to their request, and delivers them from their torment and bestows happiness upon them." - Gary Amirault
"The "Oracles" declare: "The omnipotent, incorruptible God shall confer another favor on his worshipers, when they shall ask him. He shall save mankind from the pernicious fire and immortal (athanaton) agonies. Having gathered them and safely secured them from the unwearied flame, he shall send them, for his people's sake, into another and æonian life with the immortals on the Elysian plain, where flow perpetually the long dark waves of the deep sea of Acheron." - the Sibyline Oracles (Earliest known Christian Prophecies from that Time)
Source: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd8.html
A Glimpse into the Ancient Alexandrian School (way before any of the Denominations of Christianity today - A True Authority in Both Greek and Doctrine), to quote:
"If in this life there are so many ways for purification and repentance, how much more should there be after death! The purification of souls, when separated from the body, will be easier. We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer; to redeem, to rescue, to discipline, is His work, and so will he continue to operate after this life." - Clement of Alexandria (150 - 220)
The TRUE MEANING of 1 John 2:2 is 'not John Calvin's error-filled limited atonement' but what Clement of Alexandria himself says below - Whom do you trust? (Isn't it obvious?)
"The Lord is the propitiation, not only for our sins, that is of the faithful, but also for the whole world (I John 2:2); therefore HE truly SAVES ALL, converting some by punishments, and others by gaining their free will, so that He has the high honor that unto Him every knee should bow, ANGELS, MEN and the SOULS of those who DIED before His advent." - Clement of Alexandria (150 - 220)
So, I did NOT do any 'private interpretation' but stuck to Clement's in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20. How did you and John Calvin live up to your 'limited atonement' theory based on the quote above in regards to understanding 1 John 2:2 without doing a 'private interpretation' on it as 2 Peter 1:20 instructs?
Both quotes above are from this 'same source':
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd9.html
Sibyline Oracles - Universal Salvation - Empirical Irrefutable Evidence AGAINST the SOUL SLEEP HERESY
Please consider:
Well others with NDE experiences did see heaven or hell, try Dr. Ken Vincent's book on Christian Universalism which also disproves "Soul Sleep" proving afterlife consciousness agreeing to the Sibyline Oracles, Shepherd of Hermas visions and even Sadhu Sundar Singh recently.
I will believe these.
Thanks for sharing.
P/S:
I don't subscribe to Dr. Ken Vincent's theological points word to word but I respect his "empirical evidence" of studying "Christian Universalism" from the NDE (Near Death Experiences) which is his forte.
I believe the Shepherd of Hermas and Sadhu Sundar Singh's Vision of Heaven and Hell (similar theologically) as described in posts below:
(i) Sadhu Sundar Singh - A Christian Universalist
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/sadhu-sundar-singh-a-christian-universalist/
(ii) Shepherd of Hermas – Afterlife Judgment Visions
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-visions/
Please don't let the word "Universal" scare you since originally the "Church" was called "Catholic" which means "Universal" irrespective of denominations in the early centuries though this term today reflects the Latin fathers' denomination from Rome primarily.
(iii) The Sibyline Oracles Prophesies the Salvation from the "Lake of Fire" or "Gehenna" during the Last Great White Throne Judgment eventually by MERCY which triumphs over and ENDS afterlife Judgment Sentences in Verses below:
... Mercy redeems from death when judgment comes... (56 - 79)
380 And then will he his face turn openly
Away from them. For he to erring men
Gave, in seven ages for repentance, signs
By the hands of a virgin undefiled.(269-296.)
... And to the pious will the almighty God
405 Imperishable grant another thing,
When they shall ask the imperishable God:
That he will suffer men from raging fire
And endless gnawing anguish to be saved;
And this will he do. For hereafter he
410 Will pluck them from the restless flame, elsewhere
Remove them, and for his own people's sake
Send them to other and eternal life
With the immortals, in Elysian field, (297-322.)
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib04.htm
Please note "carefully" that the translator 'comments' next (in the source above) that this passage does teach that God Saves from the Lake of Fire or Gehenna itself ----> the translator or source comments (in their own words) ---> "this passage, which savors of a final restoration from future punishment, has been thought to be contrary to orthodox teaching" (The translator or commentator's - COMMENT part)
And since he believes in an 'eternal hell', he conveniently 'adds' or refers to a 'later addition of a comment' which is NOT part of the 'Sibyline Oracles itself' in the original manuscripts of these to try 'prove eternal Hell' out of the ORIGINAL PASSAGE above (isn't that an irony?) ----> as the translator or source comments (in their own words) ------> " we find appended to some manuscripts the following lines" (again, The translator or commentator's - COMMENT part)
Looks like the 'current orthodox faith' believes the COMMENT more than the ORIGINAL PROPHECY, isn't that an IRONY?
Isn't it obvious that the translator or a 'later copier of the text' (in "some manuscripts") ADDED the comment-part which is certainly NOT part of the ORIGINAL WORK just to 'prove eternal Hell' (is that 'honesty'? - perhaps by 'your standards' - Luke 16:10, Matthew 12:37).
Please read the ORIGINAL ONLY (as quoted above) to see that the SIBYLINE ORACLES itself PROVES IRREFUTABLY that God SAVES from GEHENNA (or the Lake of Fire) itself by HIS MERCY which TRIUMPHS over JUDGMENT agreeing to the Verses below too where ALL MEN and "believers" are distinctly mentioned (the latter being a 'subset' of the former) agreeing to our exegesis perfectly:
"For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; MERCY TRIUMPHS over JUDGMENT." (James 2:13, NASB)
"For God has shut up ALL in DISOBEDIENCE so that He may show MERCY to ALL." (Romans 11:32, NASB)
or from the other Manuscript
"For God hath concluded THEM ALL in UNBELIEF, that He might have MERCY upon ALL." (Romans 11:32, KJV)
“Who [God our Saviour] will have ALL MEN to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV)
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of THOSE that BELIEVE.” (1 Timothy 4:10, KJV)
Comment:
Apostle Paul clearly knows the meaning of “us” or “our” or “those who believe” (1 Timothy 4:10) vs “all men” (1 Timothy 2:4) & did NOT make a mistake confusing these terms and the VERB (WILL HAVE in 1 Timothy 2:4) is Reflected in the KJV translation as per the Original Koine Greek Manuscript.
"If ANYONE hears My Sayings and does NOT KEEP them, I do NOT judge him; for I did NOT come to JUDGE the World, but to SAVE the World." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:47, NASB)
Blessed be Lord Jesus Christ Who Judges to Save ONLY, the Saviour of the World!
or in the other Manuscript:
"And if ANY MAN hear My Words, and BELIEVE NOT, I JUDGE him NOT: for I came NOT to JUDGE the World, but to SAVE the World." (John 12:47, KJV)
All these Verses are true 'as it is Written' (even if 'no one knows or believes it' according to a Proper Exegesis in a 'Timeline' or Time Period with both Judgment first and Mercy which Triumphs Over and ENDS it as James 2:13 reveals Majestically as quoted prior too):
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:35, NASB)
Yes, His Blessed Words of MERCY brings PEACE (when FULLY UNDERSTOOD):
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have PEACE. In the world you have TRIBULATION, but take courage; I have OVERCOME the WORLD." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:33, NASB)
"and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 8:32, NASB)
Marantha, Even so Come, Lord Jesus.
Peace to you
Judgment = The Evil we deserve for our sins.
Mercy = God's Goodness which we don't deserve.
Catholic - Why was the Early Church called "Catholic"?
Let's Look at the Lexicographical Definition of "Catholic" in Image (from Google).
Please note the words such as "All embracing", "Universal", "All inclusive" and "Unlimited".
Perhaps the Earliest Church Doctrine was 'as such' reflecting 'these Irrefutable Biblical Principles'.
Today?
'An Irony Indeed'.
Conclusion
I could be "more Catholic" than you.
Checkmate.
Professors of Biblical Koine Greek - Whom to Follow?
Question
How do we know which Professor of Koine Greek is giving accurate Scriptural Exegesis?
Reply
For me, in order to understand any 'Prophecy' of Holy Scripture such as the 'Resurrection of the Dead' or 'things pertaining to the afterlife', it is important to have a 'reference text' from 'earliest Christianity' allowing such an exegesis in accordance to 2 Peter 1:20.
The Logic is simple: It CANNOT be that the 'modern scholarship' discovers a type of exegesis NOT found amongst the earliest Christianity. If two opposing ideas are found, I make a choice based on 'which is earlier' and also 'which authority of Doctrine' is quoted from the early church period too especially in regards to 'accepted' Writings (non-rejected by both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches) such as the Shepherd of Hermas, Sibyline Oracles and even the Writings of St. Iraneous of Lyons too. Perhaps they didn't quite 'fully understand' the Mystery found in these Texts, for example:
(i) St. Iraneous of Lyons Explains that there is NO 'soul sleep' as the Example of Lord Jesus Christ also Proves:
“If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day “in the lower parts of the earth” [Eph. 4:9] ; then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples [John 20:20, 27], He thus ascended to the Father; [if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the shadow of death” [Ps. 23:4], where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.”
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
Comment: Iraneous' Exegesis agrees perfectly with the Bible ---> as 'TODAY you will be with ME in Paradise' is Written here (in Luke 23:43). Christ didn’t refer to His Kingdom though they thief asked to be ‘remembered’ in it.
(ii) St. Iraneous of Lyons mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead and Salvation has occurred in the 'afterlife' at Hades
‘the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching (evangelizantem) His advent there also and the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him’ - Iranaeus (160-230 CE), Prescriptions Against Heretics IV, 27:211
If it happened once, can't it happen again?
The Description above is regarding the Lord's Descent and Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead (1 Peter 3:18 - 20). The 'Shepherd of Hermas' Book (which Iraneous considers as Scripture) mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead even by the apostles, hence it's NOT a one time event (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:5 - 6), to quote:
Shepherd of Hermas (1st or 2nd Century CE), Ninth Similitude IX, 16:5-7 Writes:
‘These, the apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and the faith of the Son of God, preached also… to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. Therefore, they went down with them into the water, and came up again… So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God.’
Source for that phD thesis by Marietjie du Toit (most likely an 'eternal Hell' believer):
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
I repeat, I may NOT agree with the author’s deductions on ‘who’s right or wrong’ but I stick to the historical quotes found here.
(iii) St. Iraneous of Lyons Voices in Favour of Evil being NOT eternal and NOT Immortal in men, Generally:
“Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable.” — St. Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.), author of ‘Against Heresies’ and the ‘hearer of Polycarp, the Disciple of John the Beloved of Lord Jesus Christ’
Source:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
This Statement agrees to the Bible in the Following way concerning Universal Salvation:
That life toward immortality transcends beyond after God becomes all in all toward all Creation later in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28) being set free from sin (vanity, futility) too sharing in this “aspect or area” of our Liberty (Romans 8:20 – 22).
Another Example:
It's strange that St. Iraneous of Lyons of even Clement of Alexandria and even Origen (all 'Greek Fathers' - Koine Greek experts) see it as I described the afterlife.
It doesn't matter you have 187 countries on podcast. Even 'eternal Hell' professors 'reach more than that with 'their Koine Greek professors too'.
For me, it's about following the earliest authorities of doctrine such as Clement of Alexandria, Shepherd of Hermas, Sibyline Oracles etc. which I find 'accurate'.
Perhaps because you 'reject' them, you are unable to see the Truth of Scripture as they did.
Here's an example of 'afterlife Gospel' being preached to the dead by 'earliest Christian scholars' and authorities in Greek from a 'phD' research thesis too:
Who is actually rejecting the Biblical Writing by doing so?
Example of a Response:
If your teachings are true, why is it NOT found at say Alexandria where Christian Universalism flourished.
Please quote to me one source from earliest Christianity (with Name, Date and Source text) which teaches the same as you do say in regards to 'how you view Hades'.
What doesn't make sense is that 'none of those who lived in earliest Christianity knew it' but 'NOW, your Koine Greek Professors see the truth'. Is this how you guys do your phDs?
Please.
You are the one rejecting the Biblical Writers as these MUST have understood Biblical Writers being Endorsed by the Earliest Church.
Conclusion
Some 'think' that they are 'following the Bible' but the Verses they quote such as to prove 'soul sleeping' does NOT mean that at all. For example:
This is what Scripture says too if regarding the 'afterlife', please consider:
Question
Didn’t God tell Moses that his soul will sleep at death?
Reply
That’s Moses’ body ONLY sleeping (Deuteronomy 31:16).
Didn’t Moses appear at the transfiguration proving irrefutably that his soul or spirit is NOT sleeping (Matthew 17:3)?
Which Verse in the Bible says that Moses did 'not really appear' During the Transfiguration as it is described in Matthew 17:3?
Perhaps 1 Corinthians 1:27 - 29 has been fulfilled.
Blessed be the Name of the Lord, Peace.
P/S:
Instead of saying all that, why not you prove your professorship by answering each question I asked in a professional manner. What's the point of having a professorship but you are unable to refute or answer even one of the points I made here.
Please do, I will be waiting. Remember, it is you who is 'mocking and running' down all those earliest church leaders and claiming that 'you are right'. I am defending 'their view'. And if I disagree with any of their view, I try to provide 'actual Verses' which does NOT contradict 'other Verses' pertaining to the 'same topic'.
Please 'ponder' Deeply:
Are all these earliest Christian Leaders liars (e.g. Iraneous, Clement of Alexandria) and these earliest Books all lies (Shepherd of Hermas, Sibyline Oracles)? Let's ask God on Judgment Day. You may believe 'your personal view of Hades, Soul Sleep, etc.' for now as 'you choose'.
Details Regarding the Lake of Fire:
(i) Lake of Fire – Hell and Death – HOPE under FIRE – Mystery – Resurrection of the Dead – Three Ages Mystery
(ii) Lake of Fire – Death and Hades – Second Death – Last Things
Thanks for not answering the 'actual theological points' made. and calling me Satan (or implying that).
At least, Christ answered Satan with Scripture.
Secrets of All - only God Knows - Even into the SHADOW of DEATH Afterlife Regions
"The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, But the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things." (Proverbs 15:28, NASB)
Firstly (in obdience to 2 Peter 1:20), St. Iraneous of Lyons himself hints that the "SHADOW of DEATH" refers to the 'afterlife abodes where the souls of the dead are' (agreeing to a literal interpretation of Luke 16:19 - 31 too), to quote:
"If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead ... who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the SHADOW of DEATH” [Ps. 23:4], where the SOULS of the DEAD were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven],..." - St. Iraneous of Lyons
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
Verses:
"NAKED is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has NO COVERING." (Job 26:6, NASB)
"He Revealeth the DEEP and SECRET things: He knoweth what is in the DARKNESS, and the LIGHT dwelleth with Him." (Daniel 2:22, KJV)
God Himself is the Discoverer of 'things' in the "SHADOW of DEATH" ---> and He Graciously Brings it to His LIGHT:
"He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to LIGHT the SHADOW of DEATH ." (Job 12:22, KJV)
Further, to Quote:
Please Remember that LORD JESUS CHRIST SAVES from the “SHADOW of DEATH” regions of HELL itself and will turn it into MORNING as PROPHESIED in Verse below:
“Seek HIM that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the SHADOW of DEATH into the MORNING, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is His Name:” (Amos 5:8, KJV)
So let us SEEK HIM.
Yes, He Will Change (TURN) the SHADOW of DEATH (the spiritual realm of DARKNESS), which is the DWELLING PLACE of DRAGONS (Psalm 44:19) into MORNING too (Amos 5:8) till the DRAGONS too will HONOUR Him as Prophesied Mysteriously in these less known Verses when seem together but only with JUDGMENT first (e.g. destroying Jerusalem first, Jeremiah 9:11).
Please note that the exact SAME Word in Hebrew for DRAGONS occurs in each of the quoted Verse below linking these together:
“Though thou hast sore broken us in the PLACE of DRAGONS, and covered us with the SHADOW of DEATH.” (Psalm 44:19, KJV)
“And I will make JERUSALEM HEAPS, and a den of DRAGONS; and I will make the cities of JUDAH DESOLATE, without an inhabitant.” (Jeremiah 9:11, KJV)
“The beast of the field shall HONOUR ME, the DRAGONS and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give DRINK to My people, My chosen.” (Isaiah 43:20, KJV)
Please note that even the DRAGONS will HONOUR HIM (Psalm 44:19) agreeing to the MYSTERIOUS PROPHECY (below) in that ALL CREATION (or EVERY CREATURE) will WOSHIP Him too eventually in its own ways (Philippians 2:9 – 11 too, Isaiah 45:23):
“and EVERY CREATURE that is in the HEAVEN, and in the EARTH, and UNDER the EARTH, and the things that are upon the SEA, and the ALL THINGS in THEM, heard I saying, ‘To HIM Who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might — to the ages of the Ages!” (Revelation 5:13, YLT)
The phrase “UNDER the EARTH” (Philippians 2:10) is often associated with HELL/HADES/SHEOL, right? It is said that even those from here will WORSHIP Him (Revelation 5:13) and confess that ‘Jesus is Lord’ (Philippians 2:9) eventually too (Philippians 2:11 – willingly, as God doesn’t Oath Fake Confessions to Himself, Isaiah 45:23) to the GLORY of God the FATHER as HE RECONCILES them each time this is DONE too (Colossians 1:16 with Colossians 1:20). Please note the phrase “UNDER the EARTH” which refers to HELL, right? as it is found in both Revelation 5:13 and Philippians 2:10 revealing this MAJESTIC UNIVERSAL TRIUMPH of LORD JESUS CHRIST.
To Quote:
“He, indeed, saves ALL; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so “that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things UNDER the EARTH;” Philippians 2:10 that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life.” – Clement of Alexandria (150 – 215 AD)
The phrase ‘because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert’ speaks of God RESTORATION Period POST – JUDGMENT in the LAKE of FIRE too as He MAKES ALL THINGS NEW (here’s an example of Context for Verses Speaking of this, which includes Ephraim too, remember Ephraim?):
“And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am MAKING ALL THINGS NEW.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Then He said to me, “It is Done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who THIRSTS from the spring of the WATER of LIFE without cost.
“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:5 – 9, NASB)
Please note the phrase the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES (in Revelation 21:9) to realize that His Wrath is Coming to END at that time in the LAKE of FIRE (Revelation 21:8) which is with the PURPOSE of making ALL THINGS NEW (Revelation 21:5, Revelation 21:1) where only the “sons inherit it” (Revelation 21:7) while the ‘others’ (1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10) post Judgment in the Lake of FIRE (Revelation 21:8) may be ‘least’ in His Kingdom eventually by ‘not inheriting it’ but being ‘lesser in a significant way’ (Matthew 5:19) having called out by HIS SPIRIT and the BRIDE, His CHURCH (Revelation 21:9) toward ‘these THIRSTY ones from the Lake of Fire’ to ‘drink of the WATER of LIFE FREELY’ (Revelation 22:1) and may eventually get the ‘healing from the LEAVES of the TREE of LIFE’ (Revelation 22:2) as PROPHESIED Majestically toward this END here (Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:17, Isaiah 55:1, Revelation 21:3 – 4). Can you see it?
Yes, the JUDGMENT first in the LAKE of FIRE during this NEXT AGE (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 20:11 – 15, Revelation 22:12, Daniel 12:2) for these that do NOT inherit His Kingdom being on the OUTSIDE at this time (Revelation 22:15, 1 Corinthians 6:9 – 10) as only ‘His sons’ will inherit His Kingdom (Revelation 22:14, Revelation 21:7) where a WARNING is also given in that we must be CAREFUL in interpreting the PROPHECY found in this BOOK of REVELATION in order not to be JUDGED in receiving PLAGUES or MISS his part from the TREE of LIFE (to Live to the AGE, in this AGE; Genesis 3:22) and the HOLY CITY and the things WRITTEN in this BOOK (Revelation 22:18 – 19).
“whom indeed it behooves Heaven to Receive [JESUS] until the TIMES of RESTORATION of ALL THINGS, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the AGE.” (Acts 3:21, BLB)
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-hell-and-death-hope-under-fire-mystery-resurrection-of-the-dead-three-ages-mystery/
Please remember that each time you 'preach' against it, you are speaking against 'each Verse quoted here'. Let that sink in and let us be 'Wise'.
Conclusion
"Where then does wisdom come from?
And where is the place of understanding?
“Thus it is hidden from the eyes of all living
And concealed from the birds of the sky.
“Abaddon and Death say,
‘With our ears we have heard a report of it.’
“God understands its way,
And He knows its place." (Job 28:20 - 23, NASB)
Are Abaddon, Death and Hades 'imaginary figures of speech'?
Let Scripture interpret Scripture (I take these 'literally' - please note the Words Abaddon, Death and Hades 'carefully' in Verses below):
"I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:8, NASB)
"They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon." (Revelation 9:11, NASB)
"But would that GOD might speak,
And open His lips AGAINST you,
And show you the SECRETS of WISDOM!
For SOUND WISDOM has TWO sides.
Know then that God forgets a part of your iniquity.
“Can you discover the DEPTHS of God?
Can you discover the LIMITS of the Almighty?
“They are HIGH as the HEAVENS, what can you do?
DEEPER than SHEOL, what can you know?" (Job 11:5 - 8, NASB)
"The king answered Daniel and said, "Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a Revealer of Mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery." (Daniel 2:47, NASB)
P/S: One Dying Wish
I have my 'own selfish desires' but I have to see 'past beyond it when I preach His Word' (no human is perfect from this 'weakness in the flesh', Romans 6:19, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10). So, my wish in life is that you believe in Lord Jesus Christ according to Scriptures so that 'not only that you will be saved by Him' but also so that 'you may obtain as high as rewards as possible for obeying His Word' (Matthew 5:19). Nothing else matters as much since this World and its Desires ('lust') is NOT forever and 'will cease to exist' (1 John 2:17).
I often wondered what would it be like if we Worshiped God together?
P/S 2: Wisdom - Believe VERSES over Opinions
"Let the lying lips be mute, Which speak arrogantly against the righteous With pride and contempt." (Psalm 31:18, NASB)
"The tongue of the righteous is as choice silver, The heart of the wicked is worth little." (Proverbs 10:20, NASB)
Check anyone's preaching against what's "actually Written" in Holy Scripture to be more NOBLE MINDED:
"Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11, NASB)
Reply to their questions or queries regarding a theological point (if they show signs of 'asking to consider') but do NOT reply to their 'provocation and insults':
"not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing." (1 Peter 3:9, NASB)
Peace to you
Lord Jesus Christ is coming to Judge the World on Judgment Day (Verse in Image).
"because He has fixed a [Judgment] Day in which He will judge the [inhabited] world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by Raising Him from the Dead." (Acts 17:31, NASB)
[Emphasis Mine]
Lake of Fire is to the Ages - Smoke vs Torment - Ephesians 1-10 Mystery - Did Iraneous teach Eternal Hell?
Ephesians 1-10 Mystery - All Things in the Heavens and Earth as One in Him Eventually in the Dispensation of the Fullness of the Times (Verse in Image).
To Quote from St, Iraneous of Lyons:
As highlighted above, Irenaeus is considered to be the first to clearly express a recapitulation view of the atonement, although he is anticipated by Justin Martyr,[14] whom Irenaeus quotes in Against Heresies 4.6.2:
In his book against Marcion, Justin does well say: "I would not have believed the Lord Himself, if He had announced any other than He who is our framer, maker, and nourisher. But because the only-begotten Son came to us from the one God, who both made this world and formed us, and contains and administers all things, summing up His own handiwork in Himself, my faith towards Him is steadfast, and my love to the Father immoveable, God bestowing both upon us." [Emphasis added]
There follows two representative quotes from Irenaeus:
[Christ] was in these last days, according to the time appointed by the Father, united to His own workmanship, inasmuch as He became a man liable to suffering ... He commenced afresh the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam—namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God—that we might recover in Christ Jesus.
So the Syriac. The Latin has, "in seipso recapitulavit," He summed up in Himself.
He has therefore, in His work of recapitulation, summed up all things, both waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam ...the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man [born] of woman who conquered him. ... And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned, in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanquished man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm [of victory] against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death.
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory_of_atonement
What's the meaning of this?
The Famous Theologian William Barclay explains (quoted from the same source):
'Through man’s disobedience the process of the evolution of the human race went wrong, and the course of its wrongness could neither be halted nor reversed by any human means. But in Jesus Christ the whole course of human evolution was perfectly carried out and realised in obedience to the purpose of God.' - William Barclay
P/S: A Problem in Reading St. Iraneous' Against Heresies 'Correctly' Today since the Original Text in Greek is not available
Since we only seem the have the LATIN translation of St. Iraneous' Against Heresies, we get the following translation of Book 4, Chapter 28, Verse 2 in English from 'Latin':
'thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity," these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it;' - Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2 [189 A.D])
Points to Consider:
(i) Matthew 25:41, 46 is quoted
In the Bible the word is denoting a 'singular-age' ('aion or eon') but in the Latin it is translated as 'everlasting' as it is portrayed in the English Translation above.
There are also "ages to come" (AGE2, AGE3..., Ephesians 2:7) proving that the "next age" (AGE2, Matthew 25:41, 46, Matthew 12:32) CANNOT be 'an eternal age'.
Current age (Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:49) = AGE1
Next age (Matthew 25:41, 46) = AGE2
Ages to come (Ephesians 2:7) = AGE2, AGE3, ...
Each word translated as "age or ages" respectively in these quoted Verses (above) come from the same Greek root word transliterated popularly as "Aion or Eon" accordin to whether it is a singular or plural adjective/noun respectively.
(ii) Temporal vs Eternal
St. Iraneous must have gotten this phrase "not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal" ---> in comparison to the New Testament Verse below (translated 'literally'):
"we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during." (2 Corinthians 4:18, YLT)
So, again unless one can show me the exact Greek Text, the Latin must have reflected this original equivalent Koine Greek Phrase where literally ---> it refers to "things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during" (2 Corinthians 4:18, YLT)
Why is it age-during and NOT eternal?
- The Current Heavens and Earth only lasts till the END of this CURRENT AGE (e.g. Revelation 20:4 - 10).
2. The Current Heavens and Earth 'passes away' which is inclusive of the 'current unseen' (referred to in 2 Corinthians 4:18 and even 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 20:11 as 'fled away', Matthew 24:35, 2 Peter 3:10 - 12).
So, this agrees with the 'current unseen' only lasting to 'this current age' ("age-during" in 2 Corinthians 4:18 must thus be the equivalent KOINE GREEK phrase 'being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal (age-during)').
We cannot be sure either way until we see the actual Koine Greek text. However, the Biblical Text sharing the equivalent phrase points it to be 'age-during' as discussed agreeing also to the fact that the 'current things' (including the 'unseen', e.g. heaven or Hades) CANNOT remain the same as the Verses such as 2 Peter 3:10 - 13 with Revelation 20:14 implies.
- A NEW heavens and earth is created next (Revelation 21:1) which further proves that the 'unseen of the earlier heavens & earth' (2 Corinthians 4:18) lasted only till the 'end of that age' (Matthew 13:49).
- Suppose the word is eternal for argument's sake. His MERCY can TRIUMPH and END any Judgment Sentence be it even the Eternal Hell Sentence (Based on James 2:13) as it is even Described in the Sibyline Prophecies agreeing to the 'Thirsty' (from the Lake of Fire, implied as believers thirst no more) will be given the Water of Life 'freely' eventually too ('freely' denoting that NO merit is required for it but HIS GREAT MERCY only, Revelation 21:6). Please note that HIS BRIDE (the Church, Ephesians 5:25 - 32) calls out to the THIRSTY ones too (implying that these CANNOT be His CHURCH at all) in Revelation 22:17 being MERCIFUL together with HIS SPIRIT.
A lot of aspects and further quotes in great detail is discussed in post below for further edification regarding Salvation from the Lake of Fire:
- a) Lake of Fire – Hell and Death – HOPE under FIRE – Mystery – Resurrection of the Dead – Three Ages Mystery
- b) Lake of Fire – Death and Hades – Second Death – Last Things
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
My intention is "accurate" exegesis sticking to the literal words found in Holy Scripture first.
Peace to you
P/S: FAQ
1.) Body, Soul and Spirit at Death
1 Thessalonians 5:23 where body, soul and spirit are distinct.
Soul is attached to the spirit.
Also, death is body separating from soul with spirit (implied in James 2:26).
When the soul-with-spirit is with body (some of your examples), it refers to 'being alive on the earth' ----> "a living soul" (i. e. living on earth, Genesis 2:7, 1 Corinthians 15:45).
Body returns to the dust at death ('dust you are, you shall return', i. e. the body sleeps in the dust of the earth at Death, Ecclesiastes 3:20) but the 'spirit-man' or 'spirit of a man' doesn't sleep there with the body at death but MOVES as the preacher contemplated in the next consecutive Verse in Ecclesiastes 3:21 (agreeing to the phrase 'body without the spirit is dead' James 2:26 too).
So, 'the dead know nothing' (Ecclesiastes 9:5, i.e. being 'unconscious at death') refers to the 'body knowing nothing', i.e. NOT being able to perceive what's 'done on earth, under the Sun' ---> as the 'body' is referred to as 'the dead' in James 2:26 (please note this phrase 'body without the spirit is dead' [NASB], 'carefully' in this Verse to realize this often 'missed' point in some exegesis).
Even in the example of a rising of a dead body in Christ's Ministry, the "body woke up" (Luke 8:54) after the "dead little girl's spirit returned" (Luke 8:55) proving this distinction again with 'Consecutive Verses' (Context) where the 'body sleeps at death but the spirit-with-soul' moves out.
Please notice carefully that in Luke 8:54, the "body awoke from the sleep of death" (Luke 8:52 - 53) only after "the spirit returned" (implying a movement of the spirit upon death) and also that it is NOT Written that the 'spirit woke up from sleeping too' in Luke 8:55 describing this 'fine detail'.
2.) Is the Punishment in the Lake of Fire at most to the "ages" and 'not eternal' as per the literal translations (Revelation 14:11, Revelation 20:10)?
Let's see these Verses first to understand these Scriptural Details more accurately:
"Then shall He say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from Me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers [angels];" - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:41, YLT)
"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of Ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11, YLT)
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the Ages." (Revelation 20:10, YLT)
Please note that Matthew 25:41 refers to Wicked men being sent for "age-during" punishment for betterment ('kolasin' in Matthew 25:46) during the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11, Matthew 25:31) at 'Gehenna' (Matthew 10:28) in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:12 - 15).
Those among the wicked who have 'received the mark of the beast (or antichrist)' will have the 'smoke' of their torment rising to the "ages: out of the total (or bigger set) of the Ages proving that this too is 'limited' to the 'ages' where
(The larger time period of the "Ages") > (the subset time period of the "ages contained within it)
This clearly proves that the time period of the "ages" (plural in Greek) is 'limited' and NOT forever because it is 'lesser and contained within' the larger time period of the "Ages". That's what is 'literally' Written in the Original Koine Greek Bible. You don't need a phD to 'understand' this same Greek word 'aion-aionion' (singular vs plural or noun vs adjective) as it occurs in such Verses.
Please also note these two slightly DIFFERENT phrases used in Holy Scripture as follows (to 'ignore' such subtle differences is to 'ignore' a 'fine detail of Truth' meant in Scripture for Holy Scripture surely has meanings for 'each Word used'):
- i) "smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of Ages" (Revelation 14:11) ---> refers to the special subset of the Wicked who 'receive the mark of the beast and bow and worship the antichrist'
- ii) "they shall be tormented day and night" (Revelation 20:10) ---> refers to these three only, 'the beast (antichrist), the false prophet and the Satan'.
What's the difference?
The phrase in Revelation 14:11 has the word SMOKE [Transliterated Greek: "kapnos"] while the phrase in Revelation 20:10 does NOT have this Word. So, there must be a difference in regards to these two punishments which agrees to the 'other Verses' (such a Matthew 25:41).
How?
The Wicked are punished in the Lake of Fire to the 'next age only' (Matthew 25:41) in the Lake of Fire ('Gehenna') but among these, a special subset of the Wicked who have received the mark of the beast or worshiped him will have ---> their LIFELESS DEAD BODIES or CARCASSES or CORPSES (Isaiah 66:24) to burn in the 'unquenchable fire' (Matthew 3:12, Luke 3:17), Mark 9:44 - 48) to the 'next age after that' (AGE3) or 'to the ages after that' (AGE3, AGE4, etc.) which is implied by the word SMOKE in Revelation 14:11.
Yes, the SMOKE indicates that 'something has ended from the previous burning' namely that 'their spirit now lives to God' post their 'Judgment in their resurrected flesh from their Resurrection to Judgment prior' (1 Peter 4:5 - 6 with John 5:28 - 29).
Their 'lifeless dead bodies or corpses' (Isaiah 66:24) contains NO SOUL (Matthew 10:28) and these DEAD BODIES continue to BURN to the ages (Revelation 14:11) as an abhorrence to ALL Flesh referring to ALL Mankind ever created (including these punished ones too in Principle of Ezekiel 36:31, Ezekiel 20:43) sometime during AGE3 onward when ALL MEN will be SAVED by then as Prophesied in Holy Scripture (1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, Titus 2:11) where 'believers are more special for Trusting Him first' (1 Timothy 4:10).
Yes, the 'SMOKE of their torment' (Revelation 14:11) indicates that 'only their lifeless dead bodies or corpses' (Isaiah 66:24) containing NO SOUL (Matthew 10:28) which continues to burn to the 'age(s), Revelation 14:11'. It's called SMOKE in Revelation 14:11 because the SOUL has been destroyed ('cease to exist' as Matthew 10:28 implies) where the 'remaining burning only affects the sin in the body last' which may even 'cease to exist next too' being 'destroyed' (as Matthew 10:28 itself implies with Isaiah 66:24).
Indeed, the phrase 'SMOKE of their torment' itself indicates that it is 'their TORMENT which must END' because it's referred particularly as the SMOKE in Revelation 14:11. Can you see it?
As for these trio ---> Satan, Beast and the False Prophet ---> they will be TORMENTED to the "ages" ---> meaning differently from the above in that the 'smoke' is NOT mentioned here proving this distinction in Revelation 20:10. This is explained in regards to 'other Scriptural details' too in Post "a)" earlier and in the post below too:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/death-what-happens-at-death/
3.) Did the Earliest Christians understand the punishment of the Wicked to be to the "ages" only in the Lake of Fire or 'Forever'?
Let's consider these passages from an accepted Earliest Christian Prophecy (in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20) from the 'Sibyline Oracles' which is 'accepted' as true and is NON-rejected by both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches alike (except that 'they don't really believe its contents, an irony indeed):
"310 Who are to be judged at the judgment-seat,
That worthy recompense they may receive
And pay for all each did in mortal life.
And then shall all pass through the burning stream
Of flame unquenchable; but all the just
315 Shall be saved; and the godless furthermore
Shall to all AGES perish, all who did
Evils aforetime, and committed murders,
And all who are accomplices therein,
Liars and thieves, and ruiners of home," (Sibyline Oracles - Book II or Book 2, 216 - 241, Pg 48)
I repeat, please note the word "ages" [AGES, highlighted in the above] 'carefully' denoting the punishment of the Wicked in each of these Verses (translated by 'eternal Hell theologians themselves').
"125 Of drinking blood and wretched course of life.
Alas, alas for thee, thou reckless land,
Great barbarous nation; thou didst not perceive
Whence naked and unworthy thou didst come
To the sun's light, that to that place again
130 Naked thou mightest withdraw and afterwards
Come unto judgment, as unjustly judging. . . .
With hands gigantic coming from on high
Alone through all the world thou, shalt abide
Under the earth. By naphtha and asphalt
135 And brimstone and much fire thou utterly
Shalt disappear and shalt be burning dust
For AGES; and each one who sees shall hear
From Hades a great mournful bellowing" (Sibyline Oracles - Book VIII or Book 8, 61 - 82, Pg 165)
"And judgment of the immortal God (great king).
280 But when God shall change times . . .
Winter producing summer, then shall be
Oracles (all fulfilled) . . .
But when the world has perished . . .
JESUS CHRISTI SON OF GOD, SAVIOUR, CROSS.
And the earth shall perspire, when there shall be
285 The sign of judgment. And from heaven shall come
The King who for the AGES is to be,
Present to JUDGE all flesh and the whole world." (Sibyline Oracles - Book VIII or Book 8, 184 - 205, Pg 171)
"Faithful and faithless mortals shall see God
The Most High with the saints at the end of time.
290 And of men bearing flesh he judges souls
Upon his throne, when sometime the whole world
Shall be a desert and a place of thorns.
And mortals shall their idols cast away
And all wealth. And the searching fire shall burn
1295 Earth, heaven, and sea; and it shall burn the gates,
Of Hades' prison. Then shall come all flesh
Of the dead to the free light of the saints;
But the lawless shall that fire whirl round and round.
For AGES." (Sibyline Oracles - Book VIII or Book 8, 205 - 219, Pg 172)
"565 Nor sunrise; for a long day I will make.
And unto AGES there shall be the light
Longed for of the great . . .
(Christ Jesus, of AGES)" (Sibyline Oracles - Book VIII or Book 8, 404 - 427, Pg 182)
The Wicked will be eventually be 'saved' from the 'Lake of Fire' as MERCY Triumphs and ends any Judgment Sentence, even the 'worst Judgment Sentence to the one who has shown no mercy - has to be endured first' as James 2:13 Majestically Implies agreeing to the Prophecy below 'Perfectly' (Yes, MERCY to ALL the DISOBEDIENT too as apostle Paul himself Prophesied toward this end as the Last or Final Word of ALL JUDGMENT of GOD in Romans 11:32 as well):
"405 Imperishable grant another thing,
When they shall ask the imperishable God:
That he will suffer men from raging fire
And endless gnawing anguish to be saved;
And this will he do. For hereafter he
410 Will pluck them from the restless flame, elsewhere
Remove them, and for his own people's sake
Send them to other and eternal life
With the immortals, in Elysian field," (Sibyline Oracles - Book II or Book 2, 297 - 322, Pg 51)
Translation Source used for the Sibyline Oracles:
Book 2: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib04.htm
Book 8: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib10.htm
4) Who are the THIRSTY ones referred to in the Book of Revelation (Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:17)?
The Sibyline Oracles clearly mentions that the THIRSTY ones during the Final Lake of Fire Judgment (Context) are the WICKED ONLY, to quote from that 'same' eternal-hell theologian's translation (please note the phrase RAGING THIRST in the below to 'realize' this):
"370 But long worn under dark, dank Tartarus
Aloud shall they cry; and they shall repay
In cursed places thrice as much as all
The evil work they did, burned with much fire;
And all of them, consumed by RAGING THIRST
375 And hunger, shall in anguish gnash their teeth
And call death beautiful, and death shall flee
Away from them. For neither death nor night
Shall ever give them rest. And many things in vain
Will they ask of the God that rules on high,
380 And then will he his face turn openly
Away from them. For he to erring men
Gave, in seven AGES for repentance, signs
By the hands of a virgin undefiled." (Sibyline Oracles - Book II or Book 2, 269 - 296, Pg 50)
So, the THIRSTY ones whom our Blessed God Will give to Drink of the Water of Life FREELY WITHOUT any COST are the 'failed' ones (i.e. the 'wicked' as opposed to the 'overcomers in faith' - the successful ones as it is contrasted in these Consecutive Verses itself, Context: Revelation 21:6 - 7) which is Echoed as Part of HIM Who Sits on the Throne MAKING ALL THINGS NEW (Revelation 21:5). Christians or His Bride THIRST NO MORE especially since they are already Immortals being Perfected already during this time (Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 18, Luke 20:36 with John 4:13 - 14 too).
Yes, Please note that His BRIDE (or Church, Ephesians 5:23 - 32) herself calls out MERCIFULLY together with the SPIRIT of GOD toward these THIRSTY ones from the Lake of Fire (after 'their part' in it, Revelation 21:8 which is only till the 'last penny' and 'NOT forever', in this FIRE-Luke 12:49 with Luke 12:57 - 59) as it is Beautifully Prophesied in Revelation 22:17 Irrefutably agreeing to the Sibyline Prophecy Perfectly as well.
And yes, I did NO private interpretation of Scripture as you can 'see clearly now'.
Maranatha, Even so Come Lord Jesus. Amen.
'Lamb of God ... WHO ... TAKES AWAY ... the SIN of the WHOLE WORLD, thus sin will eventually cease to exist' (1 John 2:2, John 1:29, 1 John 4:14) from ALL Creation too (Romans 8:20 - 22).
Blessed be Lord Jesus Christ, the SAVIOUR of the WHOLE WORLD!
TRUE LOVE is only this:
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the Propitiation for our sins." - apostle John (1 John 4:10, NASB)
Yes,
"and He Himself is the Propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD." - apostle John (1 John 2:2, NASB)
ALL Glory to God for His Amazing Grace!
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Proverbs 4:18, NASB)
Spirit - What is the human spirit?
The Old Testament doesn't have the answers to whether the consciousness refers only to the soul being attached to the body. The New Testament proves my claims in the rich man and Lazarus story as even as a parable the description of Hades must be real as thus since parables cannot use imaginary things.
For example, if afterlife consciousness does not exist, Christ cannot use such a "non real or non-existing concept" where a soul-with-spirit 'remembers' its previous life in Hades or when upon death, the angels took the spirit-with-soul of Lazarus to Abraham's Bosom. Abraham is conscious too in the afterlife. Another example is Moses who appeared during the transfiguration and spoke with Christ proving afterlife consciousness in soul again (Luke 9:33, Matthew 17:4).
So, the only non-contradicting way to understand "the dead know nothing" concept from the Old Testament is that it is relative to 'not knowing what happens on earth' (evidenced by the phrase "under the sun" in Ecclesiastes repeatedly, 9:6 for example, establishing this often 'ignored Context' and hence these cannot be used to prove "unconsciousness" at death for the 'afterlife context' - not the 'Topic' either in such Verses- can you see it?, e. g. Ecclesiastes 3:20, Ecclesiastes 9:5) ---> from which they are separated bodily (where the "body only remains dead & unconscious, sleeping" - James 2:26) ----> the "spirit moves on, Ecclesiastes 3:21", where the spirit-with-soul is unable to see the life earth again unless special permission is granted as in the case of Prophet Samuel in the past too.
Also, the spirit which is unconscious cannot move (Luke 8:55) and Christ indirectly implies the existence of "spirits being conscious at death living in the afterlife" in Luke 24:39 implying that the 'spirit doesn't have a body of flesh & bones only except after being resurrected' also implying that the 'human spirit' is more than a 'mere breath' (1 Peter 3:18 - 20, 1 Peter 4:5 - 6). We need the 'resurrection' for our spirit-with-soul to get a redemption of the body to live on earth again in the "flesh" (Romans 8:23).
Please note that the Bible records first the 'medium's response in claiming that prophet Samuel's ghost is a god' but does NOT approve it to be true (just recording the conversation as it is, 1 Samuel 28:13). However, later Verses prove factually that it was prophet Samuel as he prophesied against king Saul and even said that 'Saul and his sons will die and be with him in the afterlife next, proving afterlife consciousness again' (1 Samuel 28:14 - 19).
Shalom
'He opened the Door to Paradise and let us in even though we didn't deserve it because of His Mercy Alone' (In Principle of Luke 23:43, Titus 3:5, Romans 3:20, Romans 3:28-the Faith of Jesus Christ Alone-Galatians 2:16, toward ALL eventually-Romans 3:22, KJV, and that's how 'all spirits' must return to God eventually as it is Prophesied in Ecclesiastes 12:7 past their 'afterlife prison sentence for some first'-1 Peter 3:18 - 20 where such will 'live to God in their spirit first eventually-1 Peter 4:5 - 6').
Elysian Field - Forgotten Mysteries - Heroes of Old
Heroes among Men vs the Titans - START of the SIXTH AGE, A look into the 'past':
To quote:
"... O first race of sixth age!
O mighty joy which I thereafter shared,...
For three kings* of great soul,
Men most just, shall distribute portions then,
And many a year rule, rendering what is just
360 To men who care for toil and deeds of love.
And earth shall glory in her many fruits
Self-growing, yielding much corn for the race.
And the foster-fathers, ageless all their days,
Shall from diseases chill and dreadful be
365 Far aloof; they shall die as fallen on sleep,
And unto Acheron in the abodes
Of Hades they shall go away, and there
Shall they have honor, since they were a race ..." - (Sibyline Oracles - Book I or Book 1, 262 - 284, Pg 28)
*Translator's note: Three kings.--The three sons of Noah
"Of blessed ones, fortunate HEROES, whom
370 The Lord of Sabaoth gave a noble mind,
And with whom always he his counsels shared.
But blessed shall they be even when they go
In Hades. And then afterward again
Oppressive, strong, another second race
375 Of earth-born men, the TITANS. All excel
In figure, stature, growth; and there shall be
One language, as of old from the first race
God in their breasts implanted. But even these,
Having a haughty heart and rushing on
380 To ruin, shall at last resolve to fight
Against the starry heaven. And then the stream
Of the great ocean shall upon them pour
Its raging waters. But the mighty Lord
Of Sabaoth though enraged shall check his wrath,
385 Because he promised that again no flood
Should be brought upon men of evil soul.
But when the great high-thundering God shall cause
The boundless swelling of the many waters--
With their waves hither and thither rising high--" - (Sibyline Oracles - Book I or Book 1, 285 - 303, Pg 29)
Example of Titans
- i) The "Emim" (Deuteronomy 2:10 - 11)
- ii) The Zuzim (Zamzummim) [Genesis 14:5, Deuteronomy 2:20–21]
iii) Og the King of Bashan ( Deuteronomy 3:11, 13)
- iv) 'Goliath' and Gang ( 2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20)
Heroes among men?
Example: the Legendary King David, Samson, Gideon...
Conclusion
The Sibyline Oracles mentions the "Elysian Fields" which denotes the Heavenly abodes made for "Heroes" in Verses below where the 'wicked' may 'live on a part of it' [please note the phrase 'them to other' in the below to 'realize' this] due to the MERCY of God as it is asked by the HEROES of GOD among MEN, HIS SAINTS too:
"405 Imperishable grant another thing,
When they shall ask the imperishable God:
That he will suffer men from raging fire
And endless gnawing anguish to be saved;
And this will he do. For hereafter he
410 Will pluck them from the restless flame, elsewhere
Remove them, and for his own people's sake
Send them to other and eternal life
With the immortals, in Elysian field," (Sibyline Oracles - Book II or Book 2, 297 - 322, Pg 51)
What's the Definition of the 'Elysian Field' based on Greek Mythology?
'The Elysian Fields, also called Elysium, is the final resting place of the souls of the heroic and the virtuous in Greek mythology and religion.' (From Wikipedia)
Please note that Greek Mythology mentions 'Apollyon' which turns out to be an 'actual angel of the abyss, a king' whose Hebrew name is Abaddon as it is mentioned in Revelation 9:11.
Amazing Mysteries where Scripture agrees to each other isn't it?
Please note that the phrase "385 Because he promised that again no flood Should be brought upon men of evil soul." Sibyline Oracles - Book I or Book 1, 285 - 303, Pg 29) ----> indicates that these TITANS and HEROES walked the EARTH 'after the Noah's Flood' agreeing to the BIBLE VERSES quoted above.
Before 'Noah's Flood', there's a Verse explaining these HEROES vs GIANTS or TITANS ('Nephilims' too):
"The NEPHILIM were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the HEROES of OLD, men of renown." (Genesis 6:4, NIV)
"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" - Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:12, NASB)
More Details? Please consider plenty of write-ups in link below (pointing to many other links explaining the details) for edification:
Reading List 1
For those who are keen to consider more details:
Example of a post discussing this Resurrection Hope toward the wicked too - part, please consider the following posts for edification (with VERSES for 'each claim made'):
1) Saviour of the World – God Will Save ALL Men eventually First
Saviour of the World – God Will Save ALL Men eventually First
2) Angry Forever? Who?
3) HOPE – means Raised to LIFE and not some to an eternal Hell
4) Sound Doctrine – Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour of All Men – Savior KING
Sound Doctrine – Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour of All Men – Savior King
5) Salvation of All Men post Afterlife Judgments? – Must be Saved
Salvation of All Men post Afterlife Judgments? – Must be Saved
6) Hell is Real
7) Atheism is Hopelessness
8) ALL are eventually SAVED
9) Bread of Life – toward Believers only or the World also, Eventually?
Bread of Life – toward Believers only or the World also, Eventually?
10) Christmas Mystery – Magi of the East
11) Gehenna – Is Salvation possible from Gehenna?
12) Swedenborg vs Sadhu Sundar Singh – Visions of Hell and Heaven
Swedenborg vs Sadhu Sundar Singh – Visions of Hell and Heaven
13) Saviour of the World – God Will Save ALL Men eventually First
Saviour of the World – God Will Save ALL Men eventually First
14) Antinomianism – Christian Liberals
15) Earth Problems – Who are the illegal immigrants?
16) LOVE – Discovering Love – What is the Width and Depth of LOVE?
LOVE – Discovering Love – What is the Width and Depth of LOVE?
17) Faith of Jesus Christ vs our faith in Jesus Christ. Which is it?
Faith of Jesus Christ vs our faith in Jesus Christ. Which is it?
18) Souls – Lost Souls?
19) Heaven and Hell – Visions & Real Visits – Knowing in PARTS
20) Ransom for Many or All?
21) Jokes in Theology – Was Paul a Universalist?
22) Sheep ONLY?
23) Son of God
24) Afterlife Judgment – to the Final Great White Throne of Judgment
Afterlife Judgment – to the Final Great White Throne of Judgment
25) Friend of His Enemies — Best Friend = Lord Jesus Christ
26) Agape Unfailing and Unending – True and Relentless LOVE of God – toward ALL MEN in Holy Scripture
Agape Unfailing and Unending – True and Relentless LOVE of God – toward ALL MEN in Holy Scripture
27) Age to Come – Life
28) Ages of the Ages or Forever and Ever – Authority in Greek?
29) Secrets of the Gospel being Preached to the Dead
30) All things Beautiful in the Ends of the Ages
Much more in Website, please click on the 'tags' ---> 'theology' and 'reason' to see more if interested, thank you.
A Bonus: Trinity – Is Trinity True?
Thank you for reading and Peace to you!
Website link for this Post:
Reading List 2
(please remember to remove "amp" from the end of each link if not viewing from mobile phone)
'The World doesn't realise that He Wins to make Everything Beautiful again, including His Enemies & that's how, Love Wins!' - Unknown
Please consider the links below for Edification regarding various aspects relating to the Depth of The Gospel which affects us All:.
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(i) The Mystery of Hell
It's important to understand about Hell simply because:
“The irony of Hell is this: Hell is often why people either believe in God or reject Him; So, are we really seeking God?” – Anonymous.
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Is God of the New Testament same as the God of the Old Testament?
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A lengthy write-up for Edification regarding "HELL" in link below (hence I refrained from posting it here).
The Mystery of Judgment and Hell Fire – Is there Biblical Hope beyond Hell?
Understanding God's Judgment & Hell - The Problem of Evil
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/how-about-judgment-why-is-there-a-hell/
https://www.google.com/amp/www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/none-can-pay-hell-eternal/
(ii) How about Visions of Hell?
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/the-truth-on-hell-by-the-vision-of-sadhu-sundar-singh/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/gospel-mystery-can-christ-save-hell/
(iii) The Importance of Preaching the Gospel in Full
FULL Truth Declaration – John the Baptist Testifies Regarding Jesus Christ
(iv) Salvation & Its relation to Faith & Works
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/justification-faith-alone/
(v) God as Savior of Israel
The Important Context of Israel first to Understand Scripture rightly:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/the-hardening-of-israel/
God NEVER Changed – The Mystery regarding the Context of Holy Scripture regarding Israel
Mysteries of Who is a God like You – His Unchanging Love remains regardless in the End
Reading List 3
(vi) God as Savior of All Men
https://www.google.com/amp/www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/save-some-men/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lord-jesus-christ-saviour-world/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/will-men-saved/
(vii) God as Savior of The World
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/many-things-belong-son-eventually/amp/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/glorious-end-christ-things/
amp/www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/end-things-beautiful/
(viii) How - Will God Save the World?
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/faith-jesus-christ/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lost-truths-faith-jesus-christ/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/faith-jesus-christ-2/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/free-will-versus-gods-will-dilemma-will-god-really-save-world/
(ix) Mysteries of God
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/reign-ages-ages-forever-ever/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/mystery-gods-sovereignty-cyrus-king-persia/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-mysteries-god/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/mysterious-question-real-faith/
(x) Scriptural Logic - "as it is written"
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/pedophilia/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lost-christianity-bible/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/all-his-word/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/divisions-my-gospel/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/reading-sides-scholars-say-regarding-god-saving-men/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/sure-context-mystery/
Conclusion
Why - will God Save All? God's Beautiful Heart
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/remade-fall-rise-grace/
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/who-is-jesus-2/
amp/www.anonymouschristian.org/christian-ebook/
What is "It" referred to in Picture?
His Will ---> to 'Save the World' (John 3:17*)
All that remains is for it to 'become true', ('come to pass', 'become a reality'), 'a testimony' ----> when "His Ransom" For "All" is applied to "All" ----> in different "times" (plural - Kairois in Greek, Divine Times) for each one's Salvation
As implied by this verse regarding His "Ransom"
"Who (Jesus) did give Himself a Ransom for All -- the testimony ("become true") in its own times ("Kairois") -- (1 Timothy 2:6)
*"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him." (John 3:17)
All His Will including other parts too will be achieved due to His Death on His Cross.
I quoted toward the 'Bigger Purpose of His Will' in John 3:17. Any part of His Will is quotable within His Work in His Cross as long as it is the "Will of God" which is to be "Fulfilled" by "Lord Jesus Christ" including Judgment too.
For example, the impact of His "Blood" on "His Cross" applying to "Reconcile All Creation" (all created things, definition context Colossians 1:16) is Revealed clearly in Colossians 1:20.
So, it's correct context.
Did Jesus Christ & Paul refer to different context when referring to the "It is Finished" Work of His "Cross"?
Absolutely not. Please consider:
In Colossians 1:20, Paul implies the same.
'saving the world' = 'reconcile all things' context by His "Blood" shed on His Cross.
Definition of which "all things"?
Colossians 1:16
One of my personal favorite
Conciliation (1 Way) vs Reconciliation (2 Ways)
Irrefutable Greek Analysis for 2 Corinthians 5:19 vs Colossians 1:20:
Lie vs Truth – Eternal Hell or Universal Reconciliation in Lord Jesus Christ?
Scripture agrees Perfectly.
Bonus (‘Last Things’ – ‘Lake of Fire Mystery’):
2) Lake of Fire – Death and Hades – Second Death – Last Things
Hell's Missed Messianic Prophecy - SHADOW of DEATH
CHRIST Saves Majestically from the Prisons of Hell too (at anytime as He Wills) to the point that even we (‘believers’) will MARVEL (John 5:20 – 21).
Firstly (in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20), St. Iraneous of Lyons himself hints that the "SHADOW of DEATH" refers to the 'afterlife abodes where the souls of the dead are' (agreeing to a literal interpretation of Luke 16:19 - 31 too), to quote:
"If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead ... who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the SHADOW of DEATH” [Ps. 23:4], where the SOULS of the DEAD were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven],..." - St. Iraneous of Lyons
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
I repeat, with emphasis for a more accurate [understanding]:
"If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead ... who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man [spirit-man or spirit of a man], leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place [e.g. Abraham’s Bosom, Luke 16:22 or Paradise, Luke 23:43]? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the SHADOW of DEATH” [Psalm. 23:4], where the SOULS of the DEAD were, yet afterwards arose in the Body, and after the Resurrection was taken up [into heaven],..." - St. Iraneous of Lyons
Another Example of Christ Saving in the Afterlife or the Spiritual Realm is seen in the Prophetic Old Testament Verses below (Thanks to Mr. Peter Cherepanov who posted it first and it caught my attention):
What a Beautiful Promise. Glory to God!
"There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the SHADOW of DEATH,
Prisoners in misery and chains,
Because THEY had REBELLED against the words of God And spurned the counsel of the Most High.
Therefore He humbled their heart with labor;
They stumbled and there was none to help.
Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He SAVED them out of their distresses.
He brought THEM OUT of DARKNESS and the SHADOW of DEATH and broke their bands apart.
Let them give thanks to the Lord for His loving KINDNESS, and for His WONDERS to the sons of MEN!" (Psalm 107:10-15, NASB)
The DARKNESS ("Outer Darkness", Matthew 8:12) and SHADOW of DEATH (Job 38:17) here refers to the AFTERLIFE Prisons and punishment Regions of Sheol/Hades which we may call as HELL (Matthew 8:12, Matthew 25:30) which will eventually be part of the SECOND DEATH in the LAKE OF FIRE too (Revelation 20:14, with Matthew 25:31 – 46 & Revelation 20:11 – 15) from which CHRIST SAVES as well as PROPHETICALLY Mentioned (Isaiah 9:2, Luke 1:79, Matthew 4:16 each containing the phrase SHADOW of DEATH – IRREFUTABLE CONTEXT).
The New and Old Testament Verses must be "combined" to see the bigger details of the same topic when it occurs at both places (in principle of Isaiah 28:9 - 10 with regards to the Context of the WORD of GOD, Isaiah 28:13 - Can you see it?).
How is God Good if there is a Hell? Because Hell gives you back ‘your evil’ (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) but He eventually Saves you from Hell itself as Promised in the Quoted Verses.
“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him Greater Works than these, so that you will marvel. “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” – Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:20 – 21, NASB)
For example, these Amazing Old Testament Verses quoted a part in the New Testament regarding Christ Proves that:
Lord Jesus Christ SAVES from the afterlife Prisons of HELL itself even toward those who had rebelled against Him prior in life as it is Written Majestically.
Truly HE is the Prison-Shaking SAVIOUR!
Blessed be the Majestic Savior of the World
The Place where we get ‘what we deserve’ is called ‘Hell’ while the place where we get ‘what we don’t deserve’ is called ‘Heaven’.
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“…Freely you received, freely give.” – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:8, NASB)
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All men will be Saved - Really, Eventually?
Question
Who are the all men in 1 Timothy 2:1, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 4:10 (same author, same inspired letter, context)?
Example of an eternal Hell theologian's reply:
1 Tim 2:1 Regarding men who are prayed for by the church "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks" in thier day to day scope. 1 Tim 2:4 Regarding men who are "saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (Which is a different scope)
1 Tim 4:10 Regarding believing men "specially of those that believe. " (Which is what the church is praying that all men would do, although they don't)
Our Reply:
I will believe that the all men in 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 Timothy 2:1 are all same, it's all men.
In 1 Timothy 2:1, we offer thanks on behalf of them because as priests of God, that's our role as "believers".
Please don't forget that "those who believe" (or believers) are distinctly mentioned in 1 Timothy 4:10 proving that "all men" is "all men" as "it is Written".
Also, these are "Factual" statements and NOT 'everyday language' or 'colloquial conversation' NOR any 'idiomatic speech at all' which implies that "all men" is "all men" as "it is Written".
If you still see it differently, it's okay.
I see that the Sibyline Oracles agrees to this, perfect!
Why does apostle Paul mentions kings etc. in 1 Timothy 2?
Because he is giving examples of the all men to pray for inclusive of them but not limited to them.
Same all men (1 Timothy 2:4 and 1 Timothy 4:10)
If apostle Paul wanted to refer to believers only among all men, he could have used "those who believe in 1 Timothy 4:10" which he did NOT.
And God's Will be Done.
Amen.
Mine is the 'same all men'. Yes, that's perfect consistency. Thanks for the compliment sir.
A common accusation by eternal Hell theologians toward us is that 'the Bible contradicts you' (they 'say').
Our reply:
Not if you take "all" Verses sir. Then it contradicts you.
Conclusion
God Saves all men eventually (Verb 'will have'-KJV in 1 Timothy 2:4) but believers (a subset) are more special (1 Timothy 4:10) and thus we ought to "pray and give thanks" to God for Promising this toward "all men" as His priests (1 Timothy 2:1) where all these will come to pass ("testified or a testimony") in its own Divine-Kairois Times (plural, 1 Timothy 2:6) and NOT all men saved at the same time as Described prior with Verses agreeing to the Sibyline Oracles as well 'Perfectly'.
How about hermeneutics?
Ever heard of church history sir?
In accordance to 2 Peter 1:20, please Show me (Name and date) of the "First Christian Writing" which agrees to your hermeneutics, please thank you
Peace to you
P/S: Shine like Stars - Heavenly Lights
"so that you may always prove yourselves to be blameless and spotless--irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as heavenly lights in the world," - apostle Paul (Philippians 2:15,
Weymouth New Testament)
'Remember this difference: Diamonds reflect while Stars Shine'
Oh I thought a moment ago you were into Iraneous too. Please be careful since what they are quoting may actually be God's Word and NOT what you believe. It's all BIBLE BASED.
Remember the "all men" vs "believers" in 1 Timothy 2:4. 2:1, 4:10 and 2:6?
Try John 12:32 too which contains the word "all men" directly from our Blessed Saviour's Mouth. The Word translated as "draw" is the 'same Greek Word used for dragging a net in fishing' (against the Will of the Fish, right? Please, let that 'sink' in every-time you think about 'free will' or 'man's will' or the need to make a 'choice').
Blindness and Judgment is Temporary to the 'age or ages' even. But 'all men' is 'all men' in John 12:32 and Christ says that He Will Achieve DRAWING ALL MEN back to Himself after being 'Lifted Up' (Resurrected to the Heavens) agreeing to 1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, 1 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:11, even Colossians 1:16 with Colossians 1:20 too.
The same word translated as 'draw' (more accurately, "drag" in Greek) in John 12:32 includes the cases where it is AGAINST the PERSON or OBJECT's WILL in Verses such as John 21:6, John 21:11, Acts 16:19, Acts 21:30, James 2:6 (i.e. Irrefutably disproving the 'availability' claim or that 'a choice must be made by creation') and PROVES further that God's WILL OVERCOMES and SAVES ALL MEN eventually in the END (Isaiah 46:10, 1 Timothy 2:4-KJV, 1 Timothy 4:10).
MERCY to ALL eventually
Firstly, Verse 11 - 12 (in James 2, Context) speaks of a person 'though preaching right' (e.g. says 'don't commit adultery') but does 'not practice it' (i.e. 'commits murder instead') in the context of the 'whole law' too (Verse 10).
So, apostle James is reminding such persons that 'by BOTH SPEAKING and ACTING properly', we belong to the class of persons who will be judged by the 'Law of Liberty' ---> Verse "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:12, NASB).
Next, apostle James warns 'why' we should 'speak properly' to 'remain being Judged by the Law of liberty' (and not be condemned with the world, implied first in James 2:12) in the next Verse as follows:
Kinda like, apostle James is saying that 'if you don't act like you preach' (James 2:12) ---> and you continue in adultery and those sins (James 2:11) in regards to the 'Whole Law' too (James 2:10) ---> then you will face 'Judgment without Mercy first' in the afterlife (NO more place in the 'Law of Liberty', implied) as James 2:13 WARNS first (in agreement to a 'believer' receiving the 'same condemnation as per the 'unbelievers' in Principle of Luke 12:46) ---> but it does NOT end there as MERCY still TRIUMPHS (ends, NASB) or REJOICES AGAINST (KJV) that 'afterlife Judgment Sentence' which must be endured first for such 'unrepentant transgressors' (second part of James 2:13). The 'Context' is 'Clear' from the 'Consecutive Verses' itself.
"For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13, NASB)
"For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment." (James 2:13, KJV)
First part of James 2:13 speaks of Judgment with no mercy to the one having shown no mercy ----> refers to "afterlife Judgment" (Isaiah 3:11, Galatians 6:7, Hebrews 9:27).
Second part of James 2:13 ---> apostle James reminds that Judgment doesn't have the final say ----> Mercy will Rejoice Over that 'same afterlife-Judgment' mentioned first in James 2:13 ending it (when Mercy will be shown, the 'triumph, NASB') ----> cause of "rejoicing AGAINST it" (KJV).
This agrees to apostle Paul's conclusions of all Judgment of God in Romans 11:32 that ALL the DISOBEDIENT will be shown MERCY too eventually.
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." (Romans 11:32, NASB)
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all." (Romans 11:32, KJV)
In the end When Mercy is shown, we are saved (Romans 9:15 - 16).
So, when MERCY finally reaches "all" as Promised (Romans 11:32), Afterlife Judgments END and "rejoicing" begins (James 2:13).
It is Written. Irrefutable.
Be Glad. Peace to you.
P/S: Maybe?
God Does NOT Write "maybe's" but only what He will Accomplish when it depends only on Him Fulfilling it (with "no" Creation's will or role) as the Context of Mercy Warrants (Romans 9:16 with Isaiah 46:10) toward "ALL in disobedience" (Romans 11:32, NASB) or from the 'other Manuscript' toward "ALL in unbelief too" (Romans 11:32, KJV) as the Final Word on All Judgment of God (as Romans 9 - 11 Describe prior and 'ends' in Romans 11:32 - Can you see it? Proper Context 'as it is Written only') agreeing to James 2:13 (discussed above as well). Consistent Scriptural Exegesis (Perfect).
HalleluYah!
How about the Greek? Please consider the link below, thank you:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/aorist-mercy-predestination-creations-choice-vs-gods-will/
Comment:
Okay let's not insult each other because your own words can condemn you (Matthew 12:36 - 37, 1 Peter 3:9, Romans 12:17). Cheers mate, relax take it easy.
God Alone decides Mercy (Romans 9:16) and He is NOT going to Fail (Romans 3:3 - 4) because of our unbelief or disobedience though we will be Judged in Hell first for that if need be (Romans 11:32), Blessed be His Holy Name for He is Justified in Condemning me!
May God have Mercy on us (Romans 9:15)
"Accept the troubles that come to you as good, knowing that nothing happens without God." - The Didache
Example:
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake." - Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 6:22, NASB)
How about sin and its relation to body and soul?
Sin causes Bodily Death and implies the Soul to Die too eventually (Romans 6:23).
Verses:
Soul that sinneth shall die too (Ezekiel 18:20).
Body dies ---> to Dust (Ecclesiastes 3:20)..
Soul dies ---> eventually at Gehenna, Lake of Fire (as Christ said that BOTH BODY and SOUL can be DESTROYED at GEHENNA, Matthew 10:28)
For the righteous their 'soul' is 'ransomed' from 'Sheol' itself as Psalm 49:15 reveals (so it does NOT die, e.g. Abraham and Lazarus in Luke 16:19 - 31).
Christ's Soul did NOT die as for the Case of righteous, His SOUL is RANSOMED too (Acts 2:27 proves this).
Thus, only for the righteous, 'our souls don't get destroyed at Gehenna' like Christ's and is 'ransomed' (Psalm 49:15). So, just like Christ Died only in the 'Body', the righteous 'die' in the body too as His Full Ransom applies only to the 'righteous, many' including for the 'Forgiveness of sins' (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:28) hence 'believers don't come into any afterlife Judgment at all' (John 5:24).
As for the Wicked, this 'forgiveness does NOT apply' and 'they may pay in the Gehenna Final Fire' (Luke 12:49) but only 'till the last penny only' (Later Consecutive Verses, Luke 12:57 - 59) and both their soul and body can be destroyed at Gehenna eventually (Matthew 10:28) ----> and they only 'live with their spirits first post this Final Judgment' (1 Peter 4:5 - 6) ----> as only by MERCY which ENDS that afterlife Judgment Sentence (James 2:13, Romans 11:32) ----> His Ransom for being 'Made Alive Sinless part' (Context: 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) applies to the 'Wicked' too as a 'Hope' (Acts 24:15) ---> for their 'spirit' to be given a 'bodily resurrection' as 'spirit + body = spiritual body' (1 Corinthians 15:44) too ---> as that's how He puts away sin by the Sacrifice of Himself by Making them 'sinless' to ALL eventually (Hebrews 9:26, 1 Timothy 2:6) as the 'wicked or the rest of creation' only share this part/area or 'aspect' of the GLORIOUS LIBERTY (from sin, 'decay' or 'vanity' being SINLESS again) as it is Prophesied Majestically toward ALL Creation in 'Birth Pangs' (implying being BORN AGAIN eventually, in Romans 8:22) with Romans 8:20 - 21 (Consecutive Verses, Context).
Sibyline Oracles – Can it be Trusted?
Canonical is only ---> Inspired Writing.
These are Prophetic Writings which Describe the Understanding of Earliest Christians and are not inspired Writing. But that doesn't prove it wrong at all.
It's amazing how Scripture agrees to that as I pointed out.
Talking about which 'ancient Christian Books' should be 'Canonized' or not, please don't forget that, Martin Luther (1483–1546) moved seven Old-Testament books (Tobit, Judith, 1-2 Maccabees, Book of Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch).
Who gave that rights to Martin Luther? See the problem here?
Here are some 'famous' Christians from the earliest times who 'quote the Sibyl', to quote:
"That use of the Sibylline Oracles was not always exclusive to Christians is shown by an extract from Book III concerning the Tower of Babel as quoted by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, in the late 1st century AD.
The Christian apologist Athenagoras of Athens, writing A Plea for the Christians to Marcus Aurelius in ca. AD 176, quoted the same section of the extant Oracles verbatim, in the midst of a lengthy series of classical and pagan references including Homer and Hesiod, and stated several times that all these works should already be familiar to the Roman Emperor.
The sibyls themselves, and the so-called Sibylline oracles, were often referred to by other early Church fathers; Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch (ca. 180), Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200), Lactantius (ca. 305), and Augustine (ca. 400), all knew various versions of the pseudo-Sibylline collections, quoted them or referred to them in paraphrase, and were unreluctant to Christianize them, by as simple means as inserting "Son of God" into a passage, as Lactantius:
"The Erythraean Sibyl" in the beginning of her song, which she commenced by the help of the Most High God, proclaims the Son of God as leader and commander of all in these verses:
All-nourishing Creator, who in all
Sweet breath implanted, and made God the guide of all.
Some fragmentary verses that do not appear in the collections that survive are only known because they were quoted by a Church Father. Justin Martyr (ca. 150), if he is truly the author of the Hortatory Address to the Greeks, gives such a circumstantial account of the Cumaean sibyl that the Address is quoted here at the Cumaean sibyl's entry. The Catholic Encyclopedia states, "Through the decline and disappearance of paganism, however, interest in them gradually diminished and they ceased to be widely read or circulated, though they were known and used during the Middle Ages in both the East and the West." Thus, a student may find echoes of their imagery and style in much early medieval literature.
These books, in spite of their pagan content, have sometimes been described as part of the Pseudepigrapha. They do not appear in the canonical lists of any Church."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibylline_Oracles
Conclusion
I guess we have to quote the passage above from Wikipedia in 'full' (and not part of it only as you have done) to see that only the 'later Catholic Church' rejected it while their 'earliest saints' (Justin Martyr, Augustine) used it ---> as the phrase in the 'Catholic Encyclopedia' ---> " they ceased to be widely read or circulated, though they were known and used during the Middle Ages in both the East and the West." The accusation of the Catholic church that it contains 'paganism' is an 'opinion'. I prefer to stick to the facts and as I read it, I find NO contradiction to any Bible Verse. If you find one, please let me know, thank you.
Shalom
Final Irrefutable Conclusion
AGE During LIFE to ALL FLESH in John 17:2:
Since NO PROPHECY of Holy Scripture is of any private interpretation, in 'obedience' to 2 Peter 1:20, I see that the following Conclusion matches the 'Sibyline Oracles Prophecy' (as shown in Images – below, later-next) PERFECTLY.
"according as Thou didst give to Him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to Him -- He may give to them life age-during;" - Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:2, YLT)
Thus in light of all these Scripture we see that the "age-during life" given to "each of the ALL FLESH" mentioned in this Verse (John 17:2) must mean as follows:
(i) Life age-during in AGE1 onward is given to Sheepfold1 in the FLESH of their SINLESS RESURRECTED BODIES.
(ii) Life age-during in AGE2 onward is given to Sheepfold2 in the FLESH of their SINLESS RESURRECTED BODIES.
(iii) Life age-during in AGE3 onward is given to the formerly-Wicked post Lake of Fire Judgment in the FLESH of their SINLESS RESURRECTED BODIES (implied).
P/S: FLESH refers to a RESURRECTED BODY in these Verses (Context of afterlife and Salvation implies this). For example, the infamous Prophecy by Job that he will see God in the FLESH (or Resurrected Body)
"And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my FLESH shall I see God:" (Job 19:26, KJV)
Please note that the 'Sibyline Oracles' is part of an accepted Book both within Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox churches and has NEVER been rejected as false in the entire History of Christianity itself. Either they just didn't understand it or did not believe it fully.
Peace to you
Truly, All Glory to Lord Jesus Christ the Blessed Saviour of ALL MEN! (as Prophesied Beautifully by apostle Paul too in Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 2:4-KJV toward this SAME END as it is described in 1 Timothy 4:10 as well).
"and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;" - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:32, NASB)
ALL Glory to Lord Jesus Christ, the Blessed Saviour of the World!
Sibyline Oracles Mystery Match with Bible Verses Perfectly - Last Prophecies is demonstrated in Images below for Edification.
Gehenna - Is there Hope beyond it?
Firstly, note that both the 70AD and 587BC events are true and represent the 'earthly shadow' of Gehenna but NOT the actual spiritual reality of Gehenna which is the Lake of Fire (in Principle of Hebrews 10:1, Colossians 2:17, John 1:45, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:27).
So, to speak of half of it (e. g. The 70AD Theory) is to know a half truth but missing out on the deeper spiritual reality spoken of in Holy Scripture.
Let's begin, from an earlier write up:
Secrets from the Wise Jews may be seen as follows:
(i) What’s the Difference between Gehenna and Sheol (Hades)?
To quote (Page 34):
“Hanhart (1966:32) states that according to Jeremias, however, it is fundamental
for our understanding of the New Testament to make a sharp distinction between Hades
and Gehenna.
Hades is used exclusively for the interim period, Gehenna on the other side
for a state of punishment after the last judgment. In Hades, the punishment is provisional, in Gehenna eternal.”
Source: https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/gehenna-is-salvation-possible-from-gehenna/
To quote further:
The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible known as Targums supply the term “Gehinnom” frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase “second death”, as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of “Gehenna” to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses “where their worm does not die”.[20]
Example – Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t. Bereshith 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b. Bereshith 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year. There are also four people who do not get a share in Olam Ha-Ba.[21] Those people are Doeg the Edomite, Ahitophel, Balaam, and Gehazi.
Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
(vi) If their concept of Gehenna is wrong, Christ wouldn’t have mentioned it.
But does it mean that Rabbinical Judaism got the facts regarding Gehenna right?
The Rabbinical writings contain some truth but they missed some part of it.
That’s why when Lord Jesus Christ spoke of Gehenna, He is referring to what they know but corrected their understanding of it and revealed more details as it is Written in New Testament verses.
Some ‘secrets’ regarding Gehenna in the Context of Universal Reconciliation in Christ (Colossians 1:16, Colossians 1:20) may only be known through His Prophets (or Saints) as Amos 3:7 mentions in New Testament times (Colossians 1:26). Yes, the secrets revealed in New Testament times includes the fact that the ‘Gentiles are co-heirs in Christ’ (Colossians 1:27) and that God Will Reconcile All Created things (Colossians 1:16) back to Himself too eventually (Colossians 1:20) as the Context of Consecutive Verses in Colossians implies irrefutably as it is Written Majestically in Holy Scripture as well.
Source:
There is there Hope beyond Gehenna as it is even mentioned in Rabbinical Judaism similar to the Sibyline Oracles Prophecy too, to quote:
To quote (Page 38):
“Bernard (1915:290) quotes two passages from the Bereshith Rabba to show that this idea was prominent in Jewish literature. He is, however, unsure of the dating of the literature.
Nevertheless, it still demonstrates the basic purpose of the descent:
‘When they are bound, they that are in Gehinnom, saw the light of the Messiah, they
rejoiced to receive him’; and ‘This is that which stands written, We shall rejoice and exult thee.
When?
When the captives climb out of hell, and the Shechinah at their head.’
The only difference here is that the captives are in Gehinnom and not Sheol.”
P/S:
Source for both Quotes are from this phD Dissertation (link below, please read it). Indeed, the phD thesis I referred to may be found in link below:
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
Here’s a Word of Wisdom when reading such ‘Research’:
‘Focus on their facts, and not their interpretation or acceptation of it’
Peace to you
All Men - All Humanity?
Sometimes the answers are in Verses we have never seen before. Example (a Prophetic Psalm below concerning ALL MEN - 'Context'):
"O You who hear prayer, to You ALL MEN come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, You FORGIVE them." (Psalm 65:2 - 3, NASB)
"O Thou that hearest prayer, unto Thee shall ALL FLESH come; Iniquities prevail against me: as for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, Thou shalt PURGE them AWAY." (Psalm 65:2 - 3, KJV)
"Hearer of prayer, to Thee ALL FLESH cometh. Matters of iniquities were mightier than I, OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, — Thou dost COVER THEM." (Psalm 65:2 - 3, YLT)
"O Thou that hearest prayer, unto Thee doth ALL FLESH come. The tale of iniquities is too heavy for me; As for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, Thou wilt PARDON them." (Psalm 65:3 - 4, JPS Tanakh 1917)
ALL FLESH = ALL MEN = ALL HUMANITY in their 'Resurrected Sinless Bodies eventually'. Remember the discussions regarding it in other posts (example the one below, in regards to this with respect to AGE1, AGE2 and AGE3)?
Peace to you
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Yes, God does NOT Change. He NEVER Changed.
P/S: The 'Worm that Dieth Not'
A Preterist View is limited to the earthly mirror only (Principle of Hebrews 10:1, Colossians 2:17).
For example, by quoting Isaiah 66:24 in 'regards to the Worm that Dieth not' & linking it to the 70AD Timeline, the Preterist View 'misses' the 'New Heavens & New Earth' (Context of Timeline, Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1) and the entire exegesis does NOT fit in the right Timeline in regards to the 'actual prophecy' meant which is the 'Lake of Fire' (Gehenna).
Too much to explain here, please consider the two posts below (the first discusses the Sabbath Relevance in regards to the Salvation of All Men while the Second Discusses further into the Details as how the Modus Operandi of the Last Prophecy regarding the Lake of Fire can be understood in the Context of the Salvation All Men using ancient Christian-Judaism texts).
Peace to you
1) https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/tithing-and-sabbaths-for-gentile-believers/
2) https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp - Eternal Hell, Annihilation or Universal Restoration?
Introduction
The writings of Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp are the most reliable early church writings which are respected and accepted by all churches in general.
Now, which view of Hell did they teach - Eternal Hell, Annihilation or Universal Restoration?
The Problem with Christian websites quoting them to 'prove the same stance with them' often do it in English hence NOT letting you see the 'actual' Greek Word used in their writings. The common word in their writings is the same Greek Word use for punishment in the New Testament (e.g. Matthew 25:46, Jude 1:7), namely "aion" or "eon" (noun or adjective) meaning 'age-during literally' (a singular age, as there are plural-ages to come too proving this distinction irrefutably, e. g. Ephesians 2:7).
Example (you don't need to be a Greek Scholar to study a single word aion-eon and its derivations):
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal [age-during] punishment" (Second Clement 5:5, 150AD).
Can you see it? There's a dilemma in the translation as whether 'eternal punishment' or 'age-during punishment' is referred to in the above since Clement of Rome (in the above) must have used the 'same' phraseology of 'aionion kolasin' in Greek (Matthew 25:456 or equivalent) agreeing with New Testament (NT) Inspired Writings.
Here's a serious question to ponder (which may explain 'why' this analysis is important or are we wasting our time ---> One of the 10 Commandments mentions that we should NOT bear a false witness, and hence after reading this brief write up, please decide the danger as to whether we have interpreted them & their doctrine correctly or have erred as per the Latin fathers of the Church, where the Greek fathers such as Clement of Alexandria seem to to point to a different understanding using these 'same phraseology' too [during the parallel Timeline next, e.g. Tertullian vs Clement of Alexandria] - Shocking, isn't it?)
Another Example:
Eternal Hell/Annihilation Theologians may quote:
"Theophilus of Antioch, 181AD "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal [age-during] punishments and to obtain the eternal [age-during] good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting [age-during] fire" (To Autolycus 1:14)
[Emphasis Mine throughout this Writing]
Please note that the Greek Word for 'Immortality or Incorruptibility' (e.g. in 1 Corinthians 15) as it is found in quote above too has NEVER been used to describe the duration of any 'afterlife Judgment' in the Bible and is NOT from the Greek Word "Aion or Eon" proving further distinction on the 'fine details' (in case you didn't realize this well known fact).
What is the "[age-during, and NOT eternal] good things of God" which is mentioned in the above?
It refers to the Coming First Resurrection to live in this Renewed Old Earth under this present Old Heavens (Revelation 20:4 - 6) during His Millennial Reign for 1000 years. This Reign is NOT eternal and the good things from this OLD earth is NOT eternal since at the end of this age (after the 1000 years are up), the Great White Throne of Judgment takes place next (Revelation 20:11 - 15) and thereafter a NEW heaven and a NEW earth with NO sea too will be made for us to dwell (Revelation 21:1).
Holy Scripture itself proves the existence of 'non eternal but age-during good things which last to the end of this current age only in the OLD earth & OLD heavens' (2 Corinthians 4:18) because that's the 'first reward' we receive upon the 'Resurrection of the Just' during the 1000 year Millennial Reign of Christ. Even St. Iraneous explained this distinction in 'against Heresies' that the 'General Resurrection' (Chapter 35, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29) is 1000 years later than this 'First Resurrection' (called the 'times of the kingdom', Chapter 34, Revelation 20:4 - 6) proving distinction though he did not go into much details for the 'General Resurrection'. To quote:
(i) First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17)
"Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION." Then, too, Isaiah has declared the TIME when THESE EVENTS shall OCCUR; he says: "And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth." Then Daniel also says this very thing: "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting [age-during till the end of this age during the LAST DAY for 1000 years, Daniel 7:27], and all dominions shall serve and obey Him." And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: "And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days." - (Iraneous, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34:2)
(ii) General Resurrection (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29)
The GENERAL RESURRECTION is only AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM (1000 years Millennial Reign for the 'First Resurrection') toward the NEW Earth
"And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the NEW earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, "I saw a Great White Throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the [OLD] earth fled away, and the [OLD] heavens; and there was no more place for them." And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the judgment, mentioning "the dead, great and small." ... Lake of Fire, the second death." Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal [age-during] fire. "And if any one," it is said, "was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire."... "For there shall be a NEW heaven and a NEW earth; and there shall be NO remembrance of the FORMER, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation." Now this is what has been said by the apostle: "For the fashion of this world passeth away." To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, "[OLD] Heaven and [OLD] earth shall PASS AWAY." When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord's disciple, says that the new [426-427] Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image-that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation." - (Iraneous, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35:2)
Please note that in the above that there are 'two Jerusalems' spoken of namely that the 'earthly Jerusalem' (Image, Shadow on the OLD Earth during the 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ) vs the 'Jerusalem from above' (Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:2, Actual - Substance in Christ) which descends upon the NEW Earth only (Revelation 21:1, consecutive Verse prior) proving the exegesis Principle of Hebrews 10:1 and Colossians 2:17 via Iraneous own writing above.
How do we know that the "everlasting fire" in the earlier quote by Theophilus is more accurately "age-during fire" since it must use the same Greek Phrase in NT (say in Matthew 18:8)? Because Theophilus of Antioch also wrote the below (hardly quoted by any eternal Hell/annihilation theologians, though they know that such a quote exists - a Universalist Quote):
"And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
Source:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
This Proves that Theophilus of Antioch did NOT understand 'age-during punishment' as 'forever' but 'only till the last penny' within the 'appointed time period of an age'.
In the Bible, we know that the 'aiōniou fire' in Jude 1:7 toward Sodom is NOT eternal since the Bible also Prophesies a Restoration toward the 'fallen Sodom' in Ezekiel 16:53 (as per the 'fallen Israel' - Context of Ezekiel 16 which will be Restored too till 'all Israel are Saved from their sins as well' - Romans 11:26 - 27 in regards to this Mystery or Secret of Judgment, Romans 11:25, in Principle of the RESTORATION of ALL THINGS, and 'not Israel or believing things only' as it is Majestically Prophesied in Acts 3:21).
Apostle Paul echoes a Triumph of Mercy ending Judgment likewise as the Final Word (Last Word of Judgment) in Conclusion in Romans 11:32 toward 'ALL the Disobedient (NASB)' or 'ALL in Unbelief (KJV)' too. So, [all afterlife] Judgment must be understood in the Context of the Mystery or Secret (Romans 11:25) of MERCY Triumphing or Rejoicing against Judgment (e.g. 'ALL Israel will eventually be SAVED from their SINS too' - Romans 11:26 - 27), ending the Judgment Sentence as 'the gift & calling of God is Irrevocable' (Romans 11:29) as even apostle James echoed similarly 'that an [afterlife] Judgment without Mercy must be endured first before this happens' in James 2:13 (agreeing with the Sibyline Oracles and Shepherd of Hermas too as we have seen in earlier posts).
Let's focus more on Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp as the views of others are 'later' and may not matter much as the 'earliest ones take precedence'. It is very easy to 'misunderstand' what they wrote without considering 'all that they wrote' as it will be demonstrated here. All quotes of 'Hell' are from the link below (unless specified otherwise):
http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm
"155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the Grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal [age-during] life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal [age-during] and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3)."
So, you may decide in the end whether they meant say 'eternal punishment' or 'age-during punishment' after reading this write up in full please (before deciding anything), I implore thee, thank you. Let's Begin.
Is there a Difference of Inheritance in the Heavens?
Yes, even for the righteous there is a distinction of inheritance.
Before that, please consider a famous fallacy arising from NOT understanding the definition of 'heaven' in the following quote (often used to prove 'soul sleep'):
"For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians." – Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, 80:9)
What did Justin mean when he says "... who say ...their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians?
Doesn't that plainly contradict Luke 16:19 - 31?
Not really. What Justin Martyr means as heaven is far more complex than 'what we assume' to be. Firstly, Luke 16:19 - 31 mentions of "Paradise" into which the "souls of the righteous go" and NOT heaven. Yes, "heaven" and "Paradise" are different as the Writings of Iraneous & even Papias reveal below (and Justin must be speaking from this 'same knowledge too'):
Yes, this definition of 'heaven(s)' may be more complex than usually assumed, to quote:
'A fragment from the early 2nd century of one of the lost volumes of Papias, a Christian bishop, expounds that "heaven" was separated into three distinct layers. He referred to the first as just "heaven", the second as "paradise", and the third as "the city". Papias taught that "there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce a hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold' (Papias, Fagments 5:1)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity
This explanation is further proven True as Lord Jesus Christ went to "Paradise" on the "same" Day He Died with His SOUL (Disproving the Soul Sleep Theory that His Soul Slept in the Grave for Three Days, Luke 23:43) but after He Resurrected Gloriously, i.e. Three Days later, He Ascended to the Father in a RESURRECTED BODY into the "Heavens" eventually (John 20:17, Mark 16:19, Acts 1:2 - 3, Acts 1:9 - 11, Ephesians 4:9 - 10).
This means that when we die, as Christians, with 'our soul we will enter Paradise' immediately (as per Luke 16:19 - 31) and await the 'redemption of the body' (Romans 8:23) to enter 'heaven' later when He Returns during the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 - 6). Yes, a soul with spirit can live in the afterlife abodes or regions such as 'Abraham's Bosom' or Paradise (Luke 16:19 - 31, Revelation 6:10) or be gathered in the New Jerusalem City for the Wedding (Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:2, Revelation 19:7 - 9) but to 'live on earth again or to enter higher into the heavens', we need to partake of the Resurrection First (Revelation 20:4 - 6, Hebrews 11:39 - 40, Hebrews 12:21 - 24).
Example:
"we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." - apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 5:8, NASB)
So, the phrases in Verse above may mean as follows:
'absent from the body' = Bodily Death = Soul with Spirit separates from the Body where the latter sleeps in the dust of the earth.
'to be at home with the Lord' = Soul with Spirit enters the abodes of the righteous
The 'Unconscious' Part of being 'dead' refers to the 'body primarily' and in the context of NOT knowing anything that is 'done under the sun' (earthly context - not speaking of afterlife unconsciousness in Ecclesiastes itself). Example of a good post explaining this, please consider:
Please note that the Twenty Four Elders may be in the Heavens (in the Throne Room of God Itself, Revelation 4:4, Revelation 4:10, Revelation 11:16, Revelation 19:4) because these may be the WORTHY SAINTS of the past who may already obtained their RESURRECTION in the BODY just 'after' Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:52 - 53) who may be the ones that 'sit on the thrones' during the First Resurrection for Christians itself (Revelation 20:4 - 6).
Please note 'carefully' that we explained earlier how St. Iraneous when speaking of the wicked must have meant the following (where most of our popular theological misunderstanding is due to viewing body, soul & spirit with no distinction or mixing these up causing contradictions in such exegesis):
(1) Conscious Punishment and Annihilation
The Annihilation part is usually signified by phrases such as 'cease to exist' or 'to the end' or 'die' or 'death' while the Conscious Torment part is signified by 'phrases describing the suffering or agony'.
What suffers and is annihilated eventually?
The 'Body + Soul' of the Wicked ---> Suffers in accordance to one's own sins first (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11) and then are annihilated or 'cease to exist' later (Matthew 10:28); and NOT the spirit which lives to God thereafter post afterlife Judgment (1 Peter 4:5 - 6).
Example quotes which actually refer to the BODY or SOUL or BOTH to be ANNIHILATED as per Matthew 10:28 - Biblical Ground:
"our interests are in jeopardy,-the salvation, I mean, of your SOULS; and unless you give yourselves to seek to know the Supreme God, a cruel death awaits you when freed from the bonds of body, not bringing sudden ANNIHILATION, but destroying by the bitterness of its grievous and long-protracted punishment" - (Arnobius' second book of Against the Heathen, 330 AD)
Note: "... SOULS ... cruel death ... ANNIHILATION..."
"The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment." (Pseudo-Barnabas, c. 70-130 AD)
Note: "... eternal [age-during?] death ..." (where the SOUL dies, Ezekiel 18:20).
"You should fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the eternal fire. It will afflict those who are committed to it even to the end." (Letter to Diognetus, c. 125-200)
Note: "... fear what is truly death... eternal [age-during] fire ... afflict ... even to the end" (the word 'end' refers to the 'true death' or ceasing to exist part of the Body + Soul in the 'age-during fire').
"Sinners will be consumed because they sinned and did not repent." (Shepherd of Hermas, c. 150)
Note: "Sinners ... CONSUMED ..." (refers to the Body + Soul ceasing to exist).
"Those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death. However, those who have known God and have seen his mighty works, but still continue in evil, will be chastised doubly, and will die forever." (Shepherd of Hermas, c. 150)
Note: " ... chastised doubly ... die forever [to the age?]" (refers to the level of punishment received and the word 'die' refers to 'body + soul' which endures these punishments to cease to exist).
"We believe...that every man will suffer punishment in eternal fire according to the merits of his deed. ... Sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up." (Justin Martyr, c. 160)
Note: "... punishment in eternal [age-during] fire according to the merits of his deed ..." (refers to the wicked receiving back according to what they have sown only, Galatians 6:7).
"Hell [Gehenna] is a place where those who have lived wickedly are to be punished." (Justin Martyr, c. 160)
Note: Gehenna as the Lake of Fire definition (refuting the earthly mirror only claim by the 70AD and 587BC proponents or equivalent).
"Some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire." (Justin Martyr, c. 160)
Note: "... punished unceasingly into judgment..." (refers to the continual nature of the punishment in that there is NO rest day or night when it takes place - not hinting on the duration of the entire punishment which is to the age as Verses and other quotes clearly prove).
"We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil." (Athenagoras, c. 175)
Note: " ... worse life, one in fire ... For animals perish and are annihilated... we would wish to do evil" (Points to the meaning of 'perish' in the context of being 'annihilated' where animals cease to exist entirely, hinting on the 'body + soul' of the wicked ceasing to exist entirely as well after Judgment in 'fire', echoed in analogy toward those who wish to continue in 'doing evil').
"Eternal fire is prepared for sinners. The Lord has plainly declared this and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it." (Irenaeus, c. 180)
Note: "Eternal fire ... rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it" (Points to the Usage of Scripture to understand its meaning, for example the 'eternal fire' in Jude 1:7 is not forever as Sodom is Promised to be Restored later too, Ezekiel 16:53 pointing it to mean 'age-during more accurately').
"All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery." (Clement of Alexandria, c. 195; from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
Note: The Post Nicene Era (325AD - 451AD) copyist fragment of Clement of Alexandria (150AD - 215 AD) above if true, has an error namely that 'souls are not immortal' as these can be destroyed in Gehenna or Lake of Fire (Matthew 10:28).
Probably Clement was beginning an argument as to the common Greek assumption that 'souls are immortal' and illustrating the point (or contradiction) above of which we only have a 'fragment of it'. In other words, Clement could be pointing out the error that by 'assuming that the souls of the wicked are immortal', then the implication is that 'Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery'. Hence, the conclusion must be that the SOULS of the WICKED are NOT Immortal but can be DESTROYED (as per Matthew 10:28 - proving again that God is Good in Destroying these Souls of the Wicked so that He can raise their 'spirit' up to new life as explained in the Restoration Part next).
Here are 'other Fragment Writings belonging to Clement of Alexandria' which Proves that He did NOT teach an 'Immortal Soul Concept' as per the Greeks, to quote:
"... For He said again, that the SOUL never returns a second time to the body in this life; and that which has become ANGELIC does not become unrighteous or evil, so as not to have the opportunity of again sinning by the assumption of flesh; but that in the RESURRECTION the SOUL returns to the BODY, and both are joined to one another according to their peculiar nature, adapting themselves, through the composition of each, by a kind of congruity like a building of stones... SALVATION of your SOULS. Hence it appears that the SOUL is NOT naturally IMMORTAL; but is made immortal by the Grace of God..." (Clement of Alexandria, Fragments)
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html
So, the fragment above appears to agree with the explanation given earlier in that Clement sees that the SOUL itself needs SALVATION and hence if the wicked have immortal souls by nature, it is impossible for them to have an end to their misery (and hence the converse must be true, in that the wicked must have non-immortal souls which is for their good as they can be 'made new' post 'destruction'). Also, the only way a SOUL can be IMMORTAL (as it is with the case of Christians) is that it may be SAVED by the Grace of God making it 'sinless' or as Clement says, 'angelic'.
The earlier quote also does NOT agree to Clement's Universalist quotes which questions its reliability such as (from the same source above):
"Ver. 2. "And not only for our sins,"--that is for those of the faithful,--is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, "but also for the whole world." He, indeed, SAVES ALL; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so "that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;" that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life." (Clement of Alexandria, Fragments)
How about St. Iraneous regarding refuting the Soul Sleep heresy & revealing more in his writings than often understood?
The Logic is simple: It CANNOT be that the ‘modern scholarship’ discovers a type of exegesis NOT found amongst the earliest Christianity. If two opposing ideas are found, I make a choice based on ‘which is earlier’ and also ‘which authority of Doctrine’ is quoted from the early church period too especially in regards to ‘accepted’ Writings (non-rejected by both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches) such as the Shepherd of Hermas, Sibyline Oracles and even the Writings of St. Iraneous of Lyons too. Perhaps they didn’t quite ‘fully understand’ the Mystery found in these Texts, for example:
(a) St. Iraneous of Lyons Explains that there is NO ‘soul sleep’ as the Example of Lord Jesus Christ also Proves:
“If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day “in the lower parts of the earth” [Eph. 4:9] ; then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples [John 20:20, 27], He thus ascended to the Father; [if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “went away in the midst of the shadow of death” [Ps. 23:4], where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.”
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
Comment: Iraneous’ Exegesis agrees perfectly with the Bible —> as ‘TODAY you will be with ME in Paradise’ is Written here (in Luke 23:43). Christ didn’t refer to His Kingdom though they thief asked to be ‘remembered’ in it.
(b) St. Iraneous of Lyons mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead and Salvation has occurred in the ‘afterlife’ at Hades
‘the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching (evangelizantem) His advent there also and the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him’ – Iranaeus (160-230 CE), Prescriptions Against Heretics IV, 27:211
If it happened once, can’t it happen again?
The Description above is regarding the Lord’s Descent and Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead (1 Peter 3:18 – 20). The ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book (which Iraneous considers as Scripture) mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead even by the apostles, hence it’s NOT a one time event (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:5 – 6), to quote:
Shepherd of Hermas (1st or 2nd Century CE), Ninth Similitude IX, 16:5-7 Writes:
‘These, the apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and the faith of the Son of God, preached also… to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. Therefore, they went down with them into the water, and came up again… So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God.’
Source for that phD thesis by Marietjie du Toit (most likely an ‘eternal Hell’ believer):
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
I repeat, I may NOT agree with the author’s deductions on ‘who’s right or wrong’ but I stick to the historical quotes found here.
(c) St. Iraneous of Lyons Voices in Favour of Evil being NOT eternal and NOT Immortal in men, Generally:
“Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable.” — St. Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.), author of ‘Against Heresies’ and the ‘hearer of Polycarp, the Disciple of John the Beloved of Lord Jesus Christ’
Source:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
This Statement agrees to the Bible in the Following way concerning Universal Salvation:
That life toward immortality transcends beyond after God becomes all in all toward all Creation later in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24 – 28) being set free from sin (vanity, futility) too sharing in this “aspect or area” of our Liberty (Romans 8:20 – 22).
Source:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/resurrection-christians-vs-the-rest-of-the-dead/
(2) Universal Reconciliation and Restoration
"whom indeed it behooves Heaven to receive [Lord Jesus Christ] until the TIMES of RESTORATION of ALL [Created] THINGS, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." (Acts 3:21, BLB)
All Creation, really? How about plants or animals or the cockroach? It's explained in detail in write up below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/reconcile-all-created-things-how-about-plants-and-animals/
The explanation in write up above is in principle of St. Iraneous' own words in considering such details as follows, to quote (refuting 'strong annihilation - theory' in his own words, implying that 'nothing ceases to exist in its essence of life' ----> please note the phrase 'NEITHER is the SUBSTANCE NOR the ESSENCE of the CREATION ANNIHILATED'):
"For since there are real men, so must there also be a real establishment (plantationem), that they vanish not away among non-existent things, but progress among those which have an actual existence. For neither is the substance nor the essence of the creation annihilated (for faithful and true is He who has established it), but "the fashion of the world passeth away;" that is, those things among which transgression has occurred, since man has grown old in them.
And therefore this [present] fashion has been formed temporary, God foreknowing all things; as I have pointed out in the preceding book, and have also shown, as far as was possible, the cause of the creation of this world of temporal things. But when this [present] fashion [of things] passes away, and man has been renewed, and flourishes in an incorruptible state, so as to preclude the possibility of becoming old, [then] there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, in which the new man shall remain [continually ], always holding fresh converse with God. And since (or, that) these things shall ever continue without end, Isaiah declares, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I do make, continue in my sight, saith the Lord, so shall your [428-429] seed and your name remain..." (Iraneous, 'Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter 36:1)
"These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice." --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
What is 'heaven', again? The quote from the Fragment of Papias must ring true as St. Iraneous himself seems to mention it thus in his own writing below, to quote:
"... And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.
[They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father," (Iraneous, 'Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter 36: 1 - 2)
How about the Bible giving HOPE toward those who did not keep His Command or Law or Prophets?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen. Whoever then shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach others the same, he will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever shall keep and shall teach them, he will be called great in the kingdom of the heavens. For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:17 - 20, BLB)
Firstly, we know from apostle Paul's Writings that the challenge Christ issued in that ---> 'unless your righteousness shall abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heaven' (in Matthew 5:20 above) ---> was NEVER attained by any human being as it is Written -----> "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight..." (Romans 3:20, NASB) and this aspect of Salvation regarding the Faith of Jesus Christ unto Salvation (for us to obtain the 'Righteousness of God through Him only' - Romans 3:21 - 22 toward ALL and 'those who believe' too, is explained in post below):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/faith-jesus-christ-2/
Thus, the Verse in Matthew 5:19 may be seen as including all men including the 'ones who break His Commands too to be in His Kingdom of the Heavens - eventually by His Mercy which is Promised to ALL the Disobedient/Unbelieving too, Romans 11:32, applying post [afterlife Judgment Sentencing first] - James 2:13' (in the Context of breaking any Law & Prophets, as Matthew 5:17 - 18 mentions first) towards being in 'a part of heaven designated for the formerly-wicked vs the righteous' (making sense of the 'plural-heavens' found in this Verse in actual Biblical Koine Greek which is OUTSIDE the Holy City - Revelation 22:15 & them NOT inheriting the Kingdom of God which is the 'Inner Heavens', you may say that this is only for the 'Hundrendfold ones' explained prior - 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11) where this region of the heavens where the formerly-wicked dwell after being reconciled from the Lake of Fire ('the thirsty or failed ones'- Revelation 21:6) toward whom the Immortal-non-Thirsty-Perfected Bride (His Church - Overcomers, Revelation 21:7) also calls out too (in Revelation 22:17) to be Reconciled and Drink of the River of Life FREELY (unmerited, unearned favour) which flows OUTSIDE the Holy City itself agreeing to both the Details found in both the Shepherd of Hermas and the Sibyline Oracles as it is Explained in Detail in the later parts of the Post below as well (agreeing to Colossians 1:16, 20):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/lake-of-fire-death-and-hades-second-death-last-things/
How about St. Iraneous in regards to Universal Restoration?
To Quote (albeit lengthy):
"... and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." For in the times of the kingdom, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die. "But when He saith, All things shall be subdued unto Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first "resurrection of the just," and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision].
For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son; subsequently bestowing in a paternal manner those things which neither the eye has seen, nor the ear has heard, nor has [thought concerning them] arisen within the heart of man, For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father's will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, "which the angels desire to look into;" and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of Which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature (facturam), that is, to what had been moulded (plasma), and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God." (Iraneous, 'Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter 36: 2 - 3)
Translation Source used for Iraneous' 'Against Heresies':
http://www.textexcavation.com/irenaeusah5.html#chapter36
An Example (in Context, Consecutive Verses) —> A Secret referred to in Colossians 1:26 is that ‘believing Gentiles are co-heirs in Christ’ (Colossians 1:27) and also that HE will RECONCILE (both ways, meaning in Greek) ALL [Created] THINGS back to HIMSELF as it is Written (in Colossians 1:16 – Definition with Colossians 1:20 – Action), to Quote:
“because in Him were CREATED ALL THINGS in the heavens and upon the earth, the VISIBLE and the INVISIBLE, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; ALL [Created] THINGS have been CREATED through Him and unto Him. and by Him to RECONCILE ALL [Created] THINGS to Himself, having made PEACE by the BLOOD of His CROSS through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.” – apostle Paul (Colossians 1:16, 20, BLB)
We know that ALL CREATED THINGS (Definition: Colossians 1:16) will be RECONCILED (two ways) back to Lord Jesus Christ eventually by His BLOOD (Colossians 1:20, Context: Consecutive Verses) as even this "rarely known fragment" of St. Iraneous of Lyon's writing itself PROVES IRREFUTABLY that this Universal Reconciliation Exegesis is the Biblical One (quoted from some of the most respected church historians below):
Schaff admits that the opinions of Irenaeus are doubtful from his (Schaff's) orthodox standpoint and says: 12 "In the fourth Pfaffian fragment ascribed to him (Stieren I, 889) he says that 'Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil----and to reconcile all things-- from Col. i:20--that there may be an end of all impurity.'
This passage, like I. Cor. xv:28, and Col. i:20, looks toward universal restoration rather than annihilation," but good, orthodox Dr. Schaff admits that it, like the Pauline passages, allows an interpretation consistent with eternal punishment. (See the long note in Stieren.)
Dr. Beecher writes that Irenæus "taught a final restitution of all things to unity and order by the annihilation of all the finally impenitent. The inference from this is plain. He did not understand aionios in the sense of eternal; but in the sense claimed by Prof. Lewis, that is, 'pertaining to the world
to come,'" not endless. Irenæus thought "that man should not last forever as a sinner and that the sin which was in him might not be immortal and infinite and incurable."
Bunsen's View. Says Bunsen: "The eternal decree of redemption, is, to Irenæus, throughout, an act of God's love. The atonement, is, according to him, a satisfaction paid, not to God, but to the Devil, under whose power the human mind and body were lying. But the Devil himself only serves God's purpose, for nothing can resist to the last, the Almighty power of divine love, which works not by constraint (the Devil's way) but by persuasion.13 The different statements of Irenæus are hard to reconcile with each other, but a fair inference from his language seems to be that he hovered between the doctrines of annihilation and endless punishment, and yet leaned not a little hopefully to that of restoration. He certainly says that death ends sin, which forecloses all idea of endless torments. It is probable that the fathers differed, as their successors have since differed, according to antecedent and surrounding
influences, and their own idiosyncrasies. Of Christian writers up to date, all assert future punishment, seven apply the word rendered everlasting (aionios) to it; three, certainly did not regard it as endless, two holding to annihilation and one to universal restoration. Remembering, however, the doctrine of Reserve, we can by no means be certain that the heathen words used denoting absolute endlessness were not used "pedagogically," to deter sinners from sin.
The Wicked's General Resurrection in the 'Flesh' (John 5:28 - 29) in their 'Body, Soul and Spirit' (1 Thessalonians 5:23) on Judgment Day (before the Great White Throne, 1 Peter 4:5) ----> causes their FLESH to be DESTROYED when JUDGED in the FLESH (1 Peter 4:6) ---> which refers to both their BODY and SOUL which contained SIN to eventually CEASE to EXIST as the word being DESTROYED means (Matthew 10:28) ---> but their 'Spirit' will 'live to God' (1 Peter 4:6) which is to be understood as the 'Made ALIVE Part' which applies to ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) as apostle Paul skipped this Judgment part never mentioning Lake of Fire in 1 Corinthians 15 at all ---> where these formerly wicked may be given a 'spirit + body = spiritual body' (resurrected bodily - sinless, as the HOPE toward them too, Acts 24:15) as Promised to include ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22, Romans 5:18 - 19, 1 Timothy 2:4 - KJV, Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 4:10) but 'differing in glory & substance too' (1 Corinthians 15:38 - 49).
Regarding the Greek Word 'Conciliation' (as an 'ambassador' - one way offering) vs 'Reconciliation' (as a two way reality eventually), please consider the following analysis as quoted in link below (by an expert too - question 3 in link below):
The Word “NOW, PRESENT TIME” (Colossians 1:22) to you (believers, Colossians 1:21) being reconciled (on earth in this life, right?) speak thus.
The HOPE (please note the word HOPE in Colossians 1:23) of the Gospel (beyond this life, implied, 1 Corinthians 15:19 too) —> ‘that you have heard’ (Colossians 1:23, NASB) —> as it was described prior in Colossians 1:16 with Colossians 1:20 [with NO IF’s meaning that it is a HOPE which will take place eventually] —> where this HOPE includes the GOSPEL which will be PREACHED or PROCLAIMED to ALL CREATION (Mark 16:15), yes please note the phrase “proclaimed in all creation” (Colossians 1:23, NASB) as apostle mentions this as part of the HOPE (not yet Done in full but will be Done as it is Written, hence a certain HOPE with NO ifs mentioned together with it) —> agreeing to the GOSPEL being PREACHED or PROCLAIMED to the DEAD too (1 Peter 4:6) —> so that ALL CREATION will be SET FREE into the GLORIOUS LIBERTY of the CHILDREN of GOD too eventually (Romans 8:20 – 22).
Other Related Verses are quoted above to explain this HOPE further toward ALL Creation as it is Written agreeing with ALL THINGS CREATED being RECONCILED to HIM as Prophesied here (in this HOPE) in Colossians 1:16 & Colossians 1:20 as well in the FULLNESS of the TIMES (Ephesians 1:10) for His RANSOM to be applied to ALL eventually (1 Timothy 2:6) causing ALL things to be RESTORED (Acts 3:21) and MADE NEW too (Revelation 21:5) to achieve this till God becomes ALL in all eventually (1 Corinthians 15:28).
Conclusion
St. Iraneous of Lyons (being a hearer of Polycarp who was the disciple of apostle John & also who quotes Justin Martyr in his own writings), being endorsed as the author chosen to write 'against heresies' could not have erred in teaching all three views of Hell (eternal conscious torment, annihilation and universal restoration).
It is clear from the explanation above that St. Iraneous of Lyons is clearly a Christ Centered Universalist where he speaks of the 'body + soul' to be annihilated only after a period of 'conscious torment' during Judgment as he cannot be teaching that the 'spirit ceases to exist' or 'eternal hell' which contradicts 'Matthew 10:28' and his own quote that 'Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil----and to reconcile all things-- from Col. i:20--that there may be an end of all impurity.'
We have grossly misunderstood the early church fathers by misquoting and misunderstanding their explanations especially when 'we don't quote them in full' or 'when we quote them in English translations as opposed to the original Biblical Koine Greek' as well as 'when we think it refers to body + soul + spirit' where punishment only refers to 'body + soul' even when it is not written in their writings as Christ Himself Defined ONLY those two to be Destroyed ('cease to exist') in Gehenna (or Lake of Fire) in Matthew 10:28 (Let's not add to His Word, right?) but it doesn't end there as after the Judgment in the 'resurrected flesh for Judgment' (John 5:28 - 29, 1 Peter 4:5), the wicked's "spirit" (distinct from body + soul, definition 1 Thessalonians 5:23) will LIVE to God post this [afterlife] Judgment as the next Consecutive Verse (Context) in 1 Peter 4:6 prove Irrefutably 'as it is Written'.
This 'formerly wicked-spirit' which 'lives to God' (please note the word LIVES in 1 Peter 4:6 which ties it up to being made ALIVE in 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) to obtain a HOPE in the Resurrection of being made ALIVE (yes, NOT the 'resurrection of Judgment earlier', each being distinct, Acts 24:15) is explained in apostle Paul's Inspired Writings in that these must 'obtain a sinless spiritual body too thereafter' (1 Corinthians 15:44) which is Promised to ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22, 1 Corinthians 15:48 - 49 including the Wicked, Acts 24:15) which marks the Full Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1 - 2, in Principle of Romans 4:5 too where we obtain a righteousness without works by believing in 'God Justifying the Ungodly or Wicked' according to Scripture).
How do I know that the definition of Body, Soul and Spirit in a Man is distinct as thus allowing for such an interpretation?
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” – apostle Paul (1 Thessalonians 5:23, NASB)
Body, Soul Spirit - What are those in a Man?
To quote:
"The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved." - Justin Martyr (Chapter 10 - The body saved, and will therefore rise, On the Resurrection)
Source:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm
Is the Soul Immortal? The soul is mortal just like the body according to Justin agreeing in that both the BODY and SOUL can be DESTROYED (i.e. CEASE to EXIST) as it is Declared by our Blessed Saviour Himself in regards to Gehenna (or Lake of Fire, in Matthew 10:28), to quote:
"But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished." - Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Tyrpho)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
P/S: God is Good even toward the Wicked
The SPIRIT will be SAVED by GOD after this 'Resurrection for Judgment in the FLESH for the Dead/Wicked' (as John 5:28 - 29 mentions these wicked to be 'resurrected for Judgment' while Revelation 20:11 - 15 calls these wicked as 'the dead' before His Great White Throne as does 1 Peter 4:5 - 6 refer to these 'resurrected wicked for Judgment' as 'the dead' as well - please note 'carefully').
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY both SOUL and BODY in HELL [Gehenna]." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, NASB)
"who [the wicked] will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and THE DEAD. For to this end the Gospel was proclaimed even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God" (1 Peter 4:5 - 6, BLB)
So,
'JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH' (1 Peter 4:6) = 'The Wicked or the Dead' being Judged in their Resurrected for Judgment-Body in Gehenna of the Lake of Fire (1 Peter 4:5, John 5:28 - 29, Revelation 20:11 - 15) where at most both the BODY and SOUL is DESTROYED (i.e. 'cease to exist', Matthew 10:28)
It does NOT end there as:
'but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God' (1 Peter 4:6) = these formerly-wicked live in the spirit-state to God first post this Final Judgment.
A Word of Biblical Wisdom
"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." (Proverbs 9:8, kjv)
The Final Prophecy:
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN to Myself.” - Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:32, BSB)
God does NOT Fail or write 'vain attempts'; He Speaks what He Will Fulfill. Let's have a 'little faith'.
A Good Discussion Read (in link below):
666 - The Number of the Beast - Antichrist
"Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six." - apostle John (Revelation 13:18, NASB)
What's the number of the beast?
"1. Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),-I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one.
[I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.]
Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number.
Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them.
Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall.
Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.
- These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.
This, too, the apostle affirms: "When they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them." And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein." This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.
- It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved.
For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (Euanqas) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it.
Then also Lateinos (Lateinos) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence].
Teitan too, (Teitan, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels e and i), among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation.
Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed.
And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan."
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.
- But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period.
But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed.
But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." - St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter XXX.-Although Certain as to the Number of the Name of Antichrist, Yet We Should Come to No Rash Conclusions as to the Name Itself, Because This Number is Capable of Being Fitted to Many Names. Reasons for This Point Being Reserved by the Holy Spirit. Antichrist's Reign and Death)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
Conclusion
We Should Come to No Rash Conclusions as to the Name Itself, Because This Number is Capable of Being Fitted to Many Names.
Gehenna - Lake of Fire - Future Prophecy or 70AD Theory?
Gehenna does NOT refer to the 70AD and 587BC analogies.
Prophecy of Scripture is of NO private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). You continue in error, with all due respect, you will reap what you sow in the afterlife.
What is Gehenna? (NOT my opinion - that's the difference; you guys are too obsessed in 'creating a name for yourselves' by having the attitude of rejecting the early church writings & some even questioning the inerrant nature of the Bible just to 'create your own ear tickling theories' - my duty is to warn you - NO phD's can change history), to quote:
"And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the NEW earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, "I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them." And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning "the dead, great and small." "The sea," he says, "gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover," he says, "the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the LAKE of FIRE, the second death." Now this is what is called GEHENNA, which the Lord styled eternal [age-during] fire. "And if any one," it is said, "was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire." - St. Ireneous of Lyons ('Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter 35:2)
Please note carefully in the above that the GEHENNA or LAKE of FIRE (the Second Death) ---> is on the NEW earth (which has NO Sea, Revelation 21:1 - 2) and hence cannot be the 70AD timeline - isn't this point itself irrefutable?. Yes, all these occurs only AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM (as St. Iraneous' Writings Prove above - he is right & the theologians you follow are wrong).
Here are some interesting quotes proving the 'same meaning' of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire as the Last Judgment especially in regards to the question,
'Is the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) eternal?'
Canon Farrar's "Eternal Hope." (He gives in a note these testimonies to prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of endless duration).
Asarath Maamaroth, f. 35, 1: "There will hereafter be no
Gehenna."
Jalkuth Shimoni, f. 46, 1: "Gabriel and Michael will open the
eight thousand gates of Gehenna, and let out Israelites and righteous Gentiles."
A passage in Othoth, (attributed to R. Akiba) declares that Gabriel and Michael will open the forty thousand gates of Gehenna, and set free the damned,
and in Emek Hammelech, f. 138, 4, we read: "The wicked stay
in Gehenna till the resurrection, and then the Messiah, passing through it redeems them." See Stephelius' Rabbinical Literature.
Why did these Jewish Rabbis use the Term "Gehenna" which already had an earthly meaning as to a specific physical location In Israel? Simply because they didn't have an equivalent word to denote the 'spiritual truth' of an 'afterlife punishment region for the Final Judgment itself', to quote:
Rev. Dr. Wise, a learned Jewish Rabbi, says: "That the ancient Hebrews had no knowledge of Hell is evident from the fact that their language has no term for it. When they in after times began to believe in a similar place they were obliged to borrow the word 'Gehinnom,' the valley of Hinnom,' a place outside of Jerusalem, which was the receptacle for the refuse of the city-a locality which by its offensive smell and sickening miasma was shunned, until vulgar superstition surrounded it with hob-goblins. Haunted
places of that kind are not rare in the vicinity of populous cities. In the Mishna of the latest origin the word Gehinnom is used as a locality of punishment for evil-doers, and hence had been so used at no time before the third century, A. D."
From the time of Josephus onwards, there is an interval of about a century, from which no Jewish writings have descended to us. It was a period of dreadful change with that ruined and distracted people. This explains 'why' Josephus and Philo did not use it to describe future punishment.
Please note that Lord Jesus Christ employing the same term Gehenna when teaching afterlife Judgments in the Gospel approves the Jewish Definition but not necessarily all their facts regarding it where Christ Corrects and Reveals further, for example in Matthew 10:28 our Blessed Saviour Reveals that "Gehenna" is the Place where both "Body & Soul" can be "destroyed" (or 'cease to exist') which clearly points to the 'afterlife context' as He also mentions in the same breath (in this Verse) that 'do not be afraid of those who can kill the body & do nothing more' (meaning that 'any earthly death, e.g. the 70AD destruction' can only destroy the 'body only' & 'not the soul' - can you see it? Yes, Christ compares that the 'soul can be destroyed too' - in Matthew 10:28 together with the 'body for resurrection of Judgment toward the wicked - John 5:28 - 29' proving that this "Gehenna" refers to the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:11 - 15 making this Point Irrefutable with Scripture itself).
Peace to you
Source:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/was-gehenna-uses-in-jesus-days-to-denote-hell/
Here is another quote which proves 'Gehenna' on the 'same timeline' (i.e. 'after the thousand year Millennial Reign of Christ’) as claimed:
Commodianus (c.240 A.D.) alludes to Revelation 3:14
"There will be no succour nor ship of the sea. Amen flames on the nations, and the Medes and Parthians burn for a thousand years, as the hidden words of John declare. For then after a thousand years there are delivered over to Gehenna; and he whose work they were, with them are burnt up. (Instructions of Commodianus ch.43 p.211)
Source:
https://www.biblequery.org/Bible/BibleCanon/EarlyChristianNTGridReferences.html
Sorry to be 'harsh' but this Verse prompts me be like that toward 'leaders':
"This testimony is true. For this reason REPROVE them SEVERELY so that they may be sound in the faith," - apostle Paul (Titus 1:13, NASB)
In Short,
'Repent or perish' & 'may God have Mercy on whom He Wills'
Apostle Paul did NOT mention Gehenna (or the Lake of Fire) simply because he wrote the END while Gehenna is a means to the end, not the end itself in that all who die in Adam will be made alive by Christ ---> even towards Universal Reconciliation via the Lake of Fire (or Gehenna itself) as the Sibyline Prophecies Reveal this 'same truth as well' ("again").
Last but not least, please consider Revelation 20:11 – 15 which Speaks of His Great White Throne of Judgment - Linking these Verses to the same Timeline, yes. Matthew 25:31 & Daniel 7:9 – 10 too. Yes, the Lake of Fire or Gehenna happens only 'after the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ' (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7)
All Men- Preterism - 1 Week Daniel Prophecy of the Antichrist
1) Hope for All Men in Lord Jesus Christ?
"All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will worship before You." (Psalm 22:27, NASB)
Please note that Psalm 22 is a Messianic Psalm meaning that it Prophetically Speaks of the Fulfillment of the Works of Lord Jesus Christ eventually.
How about the one whose SOUL is destroyed in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire ('not' alive - Mark 8:36 with Matthew 10:28)?
2 Verses later we find the answer of Universal Reconciliation towards such ones too (God is Perfectly Good, yes toward "ALL"):
"All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive." (Psalm 22:29, NASB)
Note, Last Line: Yes, "Even he who cannot keep his soul alive".
Yep, "Even HE who CANNOT keep his SOUL ALIVE".
2) Refuting Preterism
Using the Bible only Refutation of Preterism or 70AD Theory, please consider:
Last but not least, please consider Revelation 20:11 – 15 which Speaks of His Great White Throne of Judgment - Linking these Verses to the same Timeline, yes. Matthew 25:31 & Daniel 7:9 – 10 too. Yes, the Lake of Fire or Gehenna happens only 'after the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ' (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7).
I repeat, "the Lake of Fire or Gehenna happens only 'after the 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ' (Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:7)".
Further Refutation of Preterism by using the 'First Resurrection' vs the 'General Resurrection' Verses:
Daniel 12:2 or John 5:28 - 29 refers to the 'rest of the dead' (Revelation 20:5) which is after the 1000 years only, called the 'General Resurrection' in St. Irenaeous's Writing too in this same way.
The first resurrection is different (and only involves believers) and is 1000 years ahead on this Last Day (Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17) taking note of the words 'hour now is' vs 'hour is coming' (in John 5:25) to see these two start & end hours which are separated by a 1000 years on this last day of this age.
To ignore this is to miss the Prophetic meanings implied by the different phrases 'hour now is' and 'how is coming' both of which refers to the Last Day of this age simply because the Resurrection is only then (Revelation 20). We know that the age is split to days as per the phrase 'Day of the Age' in 2 Peter 3:18 (YLT).
It's explained in detail in my Lake of Fire Post below:
3) The Missing 1 Week Prophecy in Daniel regarding the Antichrist or Beast
St. Iranaeous of Lyons refers to the Antichrist or the Beast as the same thing. He also affirms that NO 70AD preterism theory exists as he mentions that these prophecies regarding Gehenna (or Lake of Fire) are yet to be fulfilled in his infamous book 'against heresies' especially in Book 5 (please read and see).
Here is a brief but comprehensive explanation of the Missing 1 Week Daniel Prophecy:
This Generation - Preterism? - 1 Week Daniel Prophecy
This generation that He quoted spanned from Abel to Zechariah too (Luke 11:51).
This Generation shall not pass away (Luke 21:32) ---> refers to them and their children who approve such heresies & acts against God ---> upon whom the Judgment of God Will Come and Fulfill within this [OLD] Earth and Heavens (Luke 21:33).
Till all is accomplished when He Returns and Establishes His Millennial Reign, such a wicked generation will be wiped out from the earth (fulfilling His Judgment - Luke 21:32 - 33).
How about Christ saying that 'there are those standing here who will not taste death' till they SEE the 'Son of Man Coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28)'?
Explanation with Bible Verses:Apostle John SAW the Son of Man Coming in His Kingdom (Revelation 19:11 – 16) in the Visions given (as it is recorded in the Book of Revelation) and probably so did others who were present there (in Matthew 16:28) too likewise (but it was not recorded) ‘before they died’.
Another example, apostle Paul testifies of a man (be it himself or another) who had such “Christ’s Kingdom of Heaven experience” agreeing to all this in Verses below too: “Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.” – apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 12:1 – 4, NASB)
So, they all SAW Christ Coming in His Kingdom (in Visions too) before they DIED where at least we know that apostle John's Visions are clearly recorded in the Book of Revelation. No Contradictions here.
How about the missing 1 Week in the Infamous Daniel Prophecy?
The missing 1 week of Daniel is the 7 year (day) reign of the antichrist, also called the 'beast' as per St. Irenaeous exegesis' (Revelation 11:2, :9 - 11).
The missing 1 week in Daniel is seen as follows (by scholars - a well known fact) - Here's the Math:
- i) 70 weeks = 7 x 70 days = 490 years in human time
This 490 years is split to:
69 weeks = representing 483 years from the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 445 B.C (Nehemiah 2:1 - 8).
69 Weeks = Using the Jewish custom of a 360-day year, 483 years after 445 B.C. places us at A.D. 30.
So there remains exactly 1 Week (representing 7 years) for the Fulfillment of rebuilding the Temple and it did NOT get fulfilled in 70AD Theory where the exact OPPOSITE happens, the Temple gets DESTROYED (Matthew 24:2).
- ii) The 1 'missing' Week in Daniel represent 7 days which is seen as 7 years to rebuild the Temple (Daniel 9:27).
Since till today, the Temple hasn't been Rebuilt, it cannot refer to any time period of the past (70AD or otherwise). It must refer to the time in the 'future' as the Biblical Context is 'rebuilding of the Temple' MUST HAPPEN to tie it up to this Prophecy 'correctly' and 'wrong otherwise'.
iii) Book of Revelation Prophesies that this Rebuilding of the Temple has to do with the Time of the Antichrist or the Beast
Yes, even St. Iraneous explained it thus in his book 'against heresies' where the 'abomination of desolation' (Matthew 24:15) will set himself up 'as god' in this 'rebuilt Temple' whom the Lord will Destroy during His Coming on the White Horse (Revelation 19:11 - 21, 2 Thessalonians 2:8).
- iv) Reign of the Antichrist or the Beast for 1 week (7 years, Daniel 9:27).
- a) The first 3 and a half days of the missing 1 week left to rebuild the Temple
The first half of the 3 and a half years (Revelation 11:2 for 1260 days speaking against the antichrist - His Two Witnesses - Revelation 11:3) = First Part of the 3 and half days/years of the 1 week of Daniel, under this mapping of values ---> for 42 months = (3 years - 36 months) + (half year - 6 months)
Th Beast or the Antichrist only rises at the end of this first 3 and a half days/years to KILL the two Witnesses (Revelation 11:7).
- b) The second 3 and a half days of the missing 1 week
The dead bodies of these Two Witnesses (prior) will lie scattered for the next second time period of 3 and a half years/days (Revelation 11:9) where it is Prophesied that at the end of this 1 week (i.e. 'after this [second] 3 and a half days) these ones will Rise (Revelation 11:11) which signifies the Time of Christ's Return (Revelation 11:12 - 13). Revelation 11:14 onward then returns to explain from the middle of this 3 and a half days time period.
The second half of the antichrist's reign - 3 and a half years (or 1260 days, Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:12, or 42 months- Revelation 13:5) or = Time, times and half a time (Daniel 7:25) till Christ Appears in Revelation 19:11 onward.
1260 days = 3 and a half years = (3 x 360) + (180).
42 months = 3 and a half years = 42 x 30 = 1260 days.
Time = 1 year/day, Times = 2 years/2 days and ‘half a Time’ = ‘half a year/day’.
I see NO Preterism. It all adds up Perfect, Mathematically & other Bible Scholars preach this same truth as well. Shalom.
4) NO Private Interpretation
Resurrection is coming alive with a Body. Ephesians 2:4 - 7 speak of us dwelling with our souls after we die whilst awaiting the resurrection or 'redemption of our bodies' (Romans 8:23) that is when we are 'absent from the body' (dead and in soul state) but 'at home in the Lord' (present in spirit with soul in the afterlife abodes - such as Luke 16:19 - 31 literally in Abraham's Bosom, for example) as 2 Corinthians 5:8 mentions.
Yes, ‘Soul is for dwelling in the afterlife abodes’ vs 'spiritual body post Resurrection later' (for earth & heavens).
Please note that this explanation agrees to St. Iraneous or Lyons or even Justin Martyr as quoted in a previous write up too (below) for edification:
Please show me who is the first Preterist in Church History? See the Problem with the Preterism View (which is disobedient to 2 Peter 1:20)? I choose to believe the exegesis of say St, Iranaeous of Lyons.
5) Is the Rich Man and Lazarus Story just a Parable (Luke 16:19 – 31)?
Christ Resurrected in a Physical Body. This is the meaning of Resurrection, no other teaching is true. Simple, the alternate explanations does not explain the case of Christ whom we will follow too as per His Resurrection meaning.
I'm not following Augustine. Even Clement of Alexandria and St. Iraneous of Lyons and Justin Martyr taught the same as I mentioned in regards to souls in the afterlife abodes proving the literal meaning of Luke 16:19 - 31 via their quotes too.
A parable cannot use imaginary things proving that the literal meaning of Luke 16:19 - 31 holds true regardless of its allegorical meaning (which can be true too).
For example, the Hosea 11:1 mentions "Son" as "Israel" but Matthew 2:15 refers it refers it to Lord Jesus Christ where BOTH the LITERAL and ALLEGORICAL meaning are TRUE. To ignore one of it, is to believe a half-truth.
6) Day of the Age
"and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him is the glory both now, and to the Day of the Age! Amen." - apostle Peter (2 Peter 3:18, YLT)
Day of the Age = Most Likely the 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ on the Last Day of this Age (Revelation 20:4 - 6) for the 'worthy believers in faith' (Luke 20:35 - 36).
Well, a Day is like 1000 years, right (2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4)?
First Resurrection vs the General Resurrection – Timeline – Justin and Irenaeous
Firstly, is there a difference between body, soul and spirit in a man?
"The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved." - Justin Martyr (Chapter 10 - The body saved, and will therefore rise, On the Resurrection)
1) Is Iraneous wrong?
No, Iraneous is right. Your assumption that there is only one resurrection is the problem.
Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:31, John 5:28 - 29 all speak of His Return on His Great White Throne and Speak of the General Resurrection as St. Irenaeous calls it thus.
His Return on the White Horse is different and a thousand years earlier (Revelation 19:11) which is followed by the First Resurrection for a thousand year reign (Revelation 20:4 - 6).
The phrase in Revelation 20:5 and 7 regarding the rest of the dead only being raised a thousand years later proves that there are two Resurrections as St. Irenaeous calls the former as the "First Resurrection" (during the start 'hour now is' on the Last Day, John 5:25 for life only) and the second after the 1000 years as the "General Resurrection" (during the end 'hour is coming' on this same Last Day, John 5:25, 28 - 29 some to life & others to Judgment).
The usual theologians were unable to understand this clear literal description and distinction (because it doesn't agree with their preconceived notions) and therefore dismiss all these obvious facts and just say it's "symbolic".
So convenient but I will stick to Iraneous.
2) Are there two resurrections spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15, one for the natural body and the other for the spirit body?
Firstly, if your claim is true, please explain how and when did Lord Jesus Christ have two Resurrections, one for a natural body and the other for a spiritual body?
If it didn't happen to Christ, it won't happen to us because He is our Pre-eminence and Firstborn from the Dead.
1 Corinthians 15 doesn't speak of two resurrections. It speaks of two types of bodies, natural body (which we have now, perishable in sin) vs spiritual body which is the body like Christ (perfect, imperishable).
That's why the apostle speaks of the transition of this mortal to put on immortality.
The spiritual body is the bodily resurrection which is perfect and immortal while the earlier body was mortal and perishable.
3) Isn't there a resurrection in Revelation 10?
Please show me which verse in Revelation 10 speak of a resurrection?
Explanation
"Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets." (Revelation 10:5 - 7, NASB)
"Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed." (Daniel 12:5 - 7, NASB)
'Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm." (Revelation 11:15 - 19, NASB)
These Verses are prophetic.
Revelation 10:5 - 7 Speaks of the Mystery which will be Fulfilled after the Seventh angel sounds (a Prophetic statement where in Verse 7 it's clear that it has not sounded yet).
Daniel 12:5 - 7 Speaks Prophetically about the second half 3 and a half days/years/times reign of the Antichrist being Prophesied (Daniel 12:11).
Revelation 11:15 - 19 Speaks of Fast Forward of a Time after the Second half 3 and a half days/years/times of the Antichrist when the body of the Two Witness has been laying there for that whole time (context: Revelation 11:11, the time AFTER this second half 3 and a half days) linking it to Revelation 19:11 where a Glimpse of the First Resurrection and Judgment of that time is Revealed in Revelation 11:15 - 19, Revelation 19:11 to 20:4 - 6, Matthew 7:21 - 23, Matthew 25:1 - 13 links to this time period of His Return on a White Horse which is different and ahead of the Great White Throne of Judgment by 1000 years (Revelation 20:5, 7).
The phrase "I never knew you" links Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:12 to this event and Judgment of Rejection of the foolish virgins due to Lawlessness at His Return on the White Horse for His Marriage too with His Bride as not everyone enter the kingdom of the heavens during this time (Matthew 7:21 - 23, Matthew 25:1 - 13).
4) What are the Different Events at the Last Day of this Age to the End of this Age, next?
Please note the following carefully this "distinction" in the Chronological Timeline Order as listed below (a lot of theological confusion is due to not understanding this "difference" & treating it to mean the same event in some way creating 'contradictions'):
- a) His Second Coming on a White Horse and the First Resurrection
His Return on the White Horse to Judge the Antichrist & for His Marriage (Revelation 19:7 - 21, Matthew 7:21 - 23, Matthew 25:1 - 13, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17) which is followed by the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 - 6).
The Beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet who deceived the people during this time (Revelation 19:17 - 19, Revelation 19:21, Daniel 7:21, Daniel 7:25) receive their sentencing first being cast alive into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20) when Christ Returns on His White Horse (Revelation 19:11 - 16, Daniel 7:22, Daniel 7:26).
Satan who deceived them & gave power to both the Beast and the false prophet was bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1000 years (Revelation 20:1 - 3) so that he does not influence the Millennial Reign of Christ except for one last deception at the end after the 1000 years are completed (Revelation 20:3, Revelation 20:7 - 10).
- b) 1000 Years Millennial Reign of Christ
The First Resurrection is followed by His 1000 years Millennial Reign of Christ (Daniel 7:22, Daniel 7:27) during this Last Day (Revelation 20:5, 7, Luke 20:35 - 36, Matthew 25:14 - 30, Daniel 7:13 - 14, Daniel 7:18).
Matthew 25:14 - 30 speaks of reward & judgment according to how well the "mortals" (or 'sinners', Isaiah 65:20) during this Time did during His Reign. Please note that His Bride (Church, believers in Faith) are already Immortals during this time & do not die nor marry anymore (Luke 20:35 - 36, Revelation 20:4 - 6) and live alongside those 'mortal sinners' who marry & live and die as usual (Isaiah 65:20).
These sinners will be allowed one last deception by Satan when these 1000 years are completed (Revelation 20:7) and they will gather for battle surrounding the City (Revelation 20:8) but they will be defeated by the "Fire" from Heaven (Revelation 20:9) and the Devil (Satan) who deceived them receives his sentence in the Lake of Fire first even before the Great White Throne of Judgment toward men (Revelation 20:10, Daniel 7:11 - 12).
- c) General Resurrection and Final Judgment on His Great White Throne
His Great White Throne of Judgment toward Gehenna or the Lake of Fire after the 1000 years are up (Revelation 20:11 - 15, Matthew 25:31 - 46, Daniel 7:9 - 10).
5) How Will the Final Judgment be for the Wicked?
The Wicked will be Resurrected in the "flesh" (with body + soul + spirit) for Judgment first (John 5:28 - 29) followed by the Annihilation of both body and soul only (Matthew 10:28, Mark 8:36, Ezekiel 18:4) because the 'body which sinned must die' (Romans 6:23) and also 'the soul which sinned must die too' (Ezekiel 18:20) as the Judgment in the "flesh" which applies especially during Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment (1 Peter 4:5) but the formerly-wicked-spirit will be saved thereafter (1 Peter 4:6) where it will be made Alive in Christ (Acts 24:16, 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) in a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44) accordingly (1 Corinthians 15:38 - 49, Psalm 22:29).
6) Annihilation - Justin Martyr
It is true that Justin Martyr taught annihilation of the wicked but not that the wicked cease to exist (as popularly erred) but rather in that both the 'body + soul only' is annihilated eventually after enduring a period of an 'aion or age' consciously during the afterlife punishment in the Lake of Fire (as the word 'destroyed' means this in Matthew 10:28 which refer to body + soul only, and NOT the 'spirit' - please note this 'carefully'), to quote:
Justin and Annihilationism (Eventually)
In the fifth chapter of his Dialogue, Justin himself, having admitted that the soul is not immortal, says:
“But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.”
Justin clearly believed that at death the soul goes to an intermediate place to await resurrection and judgment. Once again, we defer our discussion of this point until later. For now it will suffice to say that Justin also, just as clearly, believed in the annihilation of the wicked. He mentions the fact that only some worthy souls “never die”. Others, he says, exist only “so long as God wills them to exist and undergo punishment.” To put this the other way around, Justin must mean that after a time of punishment, when God no longer wills the wicked to live, they will simply cease to exist. Justin does elsewhere suggest that the period of conscious punishment of the wicked is quite long, being “not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years” , but longer. The wicked do however, eventually die.
Source:
https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/justin-martyr-immortality-soul/
7) Annihilation - St. Irenaeous of Lyons
To Quote:
Deprived of continuance
It’s important to remember that conditionalism is not only a positive affirmation of what awaits the lost—annihilation—but also a denial that their fate includes life. Contrary to the traditional view of hell in which they will live forever in torment,17 the doctrine of conditional immortality holds that the unredeemed will die, perish, be destroyed. With that in mind, consider these words from Irenaeus:18
"It is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved … [who] shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it … deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever … shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Against Heresies)
Taken at face value, Irenaeus seems to be saying that although God would that the saved live forever, everlasting life will be withheld from the unsaved. Conditionalists today could hardly put it more clearly, that whereas “continuance … [and] length of days for ever and ever” will be gifted to the redeemed of God, those who reject him will not receive “continuance … [and] length of days for ever and ever.” The only alternative is that they will die, never to live again. Consequently, as the New Catholic Encyclopea reads, “From time to time there has recurred the idea of conditional immortality … Irenaeus said that the soul is not immortal by nature, but it can become immortal if it lives according to God’s law.”
Source:
http://rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/03/deprived-of-continuance-irenaeus-the-conditionalist/
8) How to Understand both Justin Martyr and Irenaeous correctly?
As you read early church history, you will realize that (especially Irenaeous) has been quoted to teach 'all three views of Hell' (eternal conscious torment, annihilation and also universal restoration - please see link below).
How is this possible?
This is because the phrases which describe conscious toment teach conscious torment (true) while the phrases which teach the annihilation of the wicked are also true (where these ONLY refers to the 'body + soul' being destroyed in Hell and NOT the spirit, Matthew 10:28) implying also that the phrases which prove Universal Restoration are also True at the same time (where the 'formerly-wicked-spirit' will live to God first in the 'spirit' state - 1 Peter 4:6 after having its body + soul destroyed during the Final Gehenna Judgment in the Lake of Fire - 1 Peter 4:5 in the "resurrected flesh" first - John 5:28 - 29).
Hence, our misunderstanding of these authoritative and earliest church leaders is due to the fact that 'we pick and choose their quotes and tailor our own interpretations to suit our preconceived notions' instead of taking each quote 'literally' and realize that in light of Holy Scripture such as Psalm 22:29 that God Restores even the one who soul has 'died' (annihilated, destroyed, Ezekiel 18:4 with Matthew 16:26 & Matthew 10:28) back to Him eventually in the context of ALL MEN (i.e. every human being ever created as the phrase 'ALL who go down to the dust' in Psalms 22:29 clearly warrants Irrefutably as the Final Implication of the Work of His Cross since Psalm 22 is a Prophetic Messianic Psalm making this Context True & Irrefutable as it is Written).
In light of all this, the early church leaders are right in their quotes and it does NOT contradict Christ Centered Universalism at all if we understand these correctly as the case of St. Irenaeous of Lyons prove (since he has been quoted by scholars of all three schools of Hell - eternal conscious torment, annihilation & Universal Reconciliation) making him the 'Reliable Witness' (whom every Christian trusts) making this exegesis True instead of claiming in a contradictory manner that his quotes only meant one of it which is NOT True (let's not lie, right?).
Yes, this is the ONLY way to Understand all of St. Irenaeous' quotes in a non-contradictory manner as explained further in post below:
Peace to you
Please remember that we are affirming what the scholars and these church leaders (Justin Martyr and Irenaeous) wrote & not picking and choosing quotes as we like but explaining how it can all be harmonized with Scripture.
“ALL the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, ALL those who go down to the DUST will bow before Him, EVEN HE who CANNOT keep his SOUL ALIVE.” (Messianic Psalm, Psalm 22:29, NASB)
Comment:
Please note the Word ALL ‘carefully in this Verse (Psalm 22:29) to Realize the ‘Context’ of the Work of His Cross – especially the phrase ‘ALL those who go down to the DUST’ = ‘ALL MEN or ALL Human beings ever Created’ – Can you ‘See’ this Glorious Truth of Scripture?)
‘EVEN HE who CANNOT keep his SOUL ALIVE’ (Psalm 22:29) = ‘Who lost their souls – Mark 8:36 which DIE eventually – Ezekiel 18:4, where these SOULS get DESTROYED or ANNIHILATED during the Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment’ (Matthew 10:28)
November 5, 2018 in Malaysia - I just heard that
Tribute - Gary Amirault of www.tentmaker.org has passed away earlier today.
He wrote his own Testimonial in advance (in link below):
http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/GaryAmirault.html
"A friend loves at all times,..." (Proverbs 17:17, NASB)
He is very kind with his words, here is an example of an actual conversation between us in 2015 (from him) - in Image.
He is an inspiration!
See ya at Home One Day!
I learnt a lot from Gary Amirault. I mean, "a lot".
Thank You Lord Jesus Christ for Gary Amirault.
Heavenly Secrets - Kingdom of the Heavens
"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" - Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:12, NASB)
This Mystery is Greater than usually understood:
"Other seeds fell into the Good Soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.” And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear. And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the Mystery of the Kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND,” - Lord Jesus Christ (Mark 4:8 - 9, 11 - 12, NASB)
Let's Begin.
0) Not Everyone enter the Kingdom of the Heavens
"NOT EVERYONE saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens. MANY will say to Me in THAT the DAY, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working LAWLESSNESS.’." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:21 - 23, NASB)
Please note that this REJECTION signified by the phrase "NOT EVERYONE" will "enter into the kingdom of the heavens" is not for all time (as popularly erred in exegesis) but rather for the particular entrance to His Kingdom of the Heavens on THAT [Particular] DAY when He Returns on His White Horse (Revelation 19:11) to Marry HIS BRIDE (Marriage of the Lamb, Prophesied in Revelation 19:7 - 10) as the 'foolish virgins who also call Him Lord, Lord are REJECTED' being found 'lawless & unworthy to be His Bride' (Matthew 25:1 - 12).
Yes, to be counted 'worthy' to be His Bride & be part of the First Resurrection and become Immortals (Revelation 20:4 - 6, Romans 8:19, Luke 20:35 - 36) which follows next after His Return of the White Horse (Revelation 19:11), we need to OBEY His Commands (Luke 6:46, 1 Corinthians 14:37, John 14:15, John 15:14, 1 John 2:4 - example: Acts 21:24 - 25, Acts 15, Colossians 2:16 with 'Gentile vs Jewish believer distinctions', Galatians 2:7).
In Short, the phrase “I never knew you” links Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:12 to this event and Judgment of Rejection of the foolish virgins due to Lawlessness at His Return on the White Horse for His Marriage too with His Bride as not everyone enter the kingdom of the heavens during this time (Matthew 7:21 – 23, Matthew 25:1 – 13).
Timeline Context of Consecutive Verses (Matthew 24 - 25), please consider:
"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3, NASB)
How?
- i) Matthew 24:4 - 28
Perilous and Tribulation Times before His Second Coming on a White Horse (Matthew 24:4 - 28).
This includes both:
The first part of the 3 and a half days/times/years of the Antichrist Time period (Revelation 11:2 - 3) till the Two Witnesses are Killed by the Beast or Antichrist as Irenaeous calls it thus in 'Against Heresies' (Revelation 11:7).
vs
The second part of the 3 and a half days/times/years of the Antichrist Time period as well (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:12, Revelation 13:5 all the way to Revelation 18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:11 - 12).
Just after when the Two Witnesses are killed, Israel (the Woman) will be supernaturally protected from the Devil's Schemes (Revelation 12:1 - 5) where she will be 'safe' for the entire second half of the 3 and a half years/times/days reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:13 - 16).
Yes, there will be a War in Heaven (Revelation 12:7 - 12) and since Satan being defeated cannot touch the 'Woman (Israel)' during this 'Second half period of the Antichrist Time' (Revelation 12:13 - 16), he turns and attacks 'her children' (Christians instead causing a great persecution - Revelation 12:11, Revelation 12:17) and the 'rest of mankind too' (Revelation 12:1 - 10).
This chaos and evil continues (Revelation 12:11 till Revelation 18) till Christ Returns and Destroys the Antichrist (Revelation 19:11 - 21, 2 Thessalonians 2:8).
This is the last 'missing' disjoint period of 1 week from 30 AD (7 days or 7 year reign of the Antichrist - Daniel 9:27) of the Infamous 70 week split to 69 weeks + 1 Week, in the Daniel Prophecy (Daniel 9:24 - 27).
Yes, the 1 week 'Antichrist Period' is disjoint and mentioned separately (Daniel 9:27) where the other '69 weeks as per the calculation illustrated in the earlier post' refers to the 69 x 7 = 483 years from the command to “restore and rebuild Jerusalem” which was given by King Artaxerxes of Persia c. 445 B.C (Nehemiah 2:1 – 8).
This disjoint 1 week mentioned clearly in Daniel 9:27 clearly disproves the 70AD Theory again in that the Timeline does NOT continue from 30AD to 70AD. Yes, the Timeline is only until 30AD for the 69 weeks (or 483 years) as the Calculation show this.
The reason for this Disjoint 69 weeks + 1 week ending at 30AD because Christ Halted the 'Rebuilding efforts' (toward 'full specifications & function') by Prophesying (in about 30AD) during His Ministry that 'the Destruction of the Temple' (opposite to the 'Context of Rebuilding the Temple in Daniel's Prophecy', Daniel 9:24 - 27) is to be underway as per Matthew 24:2. Can you see it?
Comments (from a previous post for edification):
Please note that the Beast or the Antichrist only rises at the end of this first 3 and a half days/years to KILL the two Witnesses (Revelation 11:7). The dead bodies of these Two Witnesses (prior) will lie scattered for the next second time period of 3 and a half years/days (Revelation 11:9) where it is Prophesied that at the end of this 1 week (i.e. ‘after this [second] 3 and a half days) these ones will Rise (Revelation 11:11) which signifies the Time of Christ’s Return (Revelation 11:12 – 13). Revelation 11:14 onward then returns to explain from the middle of this 3 and a half days time period.
These Verses are prophetic.
Revelation 10:5 – 7 Speaks of the Mystery which will be Fulfilled after the Seventh angel sounds (a Prophetic statement where in Verse 7 it’s clear that it has not sounded yet).
Daniel 12:5 – 7 Speaks Prophetically about the second half 3 and a half days/years/times reign of the Antichrist being Prophesied (Daniel 12:11).
Revelation 11:15 – 19 Speaks of Fast Forward of a Time after the Second half 3 and a half days/years/times of the Antichrist when the body of the Two Witness has been laying there for that whole time (context: Revelation 11:11, the time AFTER this second half 3 and a half days) linking it to Revelation 19:11 where a Glimpse of the First Resurrection and Judgment of that time is Revealed in Revelation 11:15 – 19, Revelation 19:11 to 20:4 – 6, Matthew 7:21 – 23, Matthew 25:1 – 13 links to this time period of His Return on a White Horse which is different and ahead of the Great White Throne of Judgment by 1000 years (Revelation 20:5, 7).
- ii) Matthew 24:29 - 30
His Second Coming on a White Horse on the Day of His Return (Matthew 24:29 - 30).
iii) Matthew 24:31 - 41
His Marriage with His Bride, His Church or the Elect of God (Matthew 24:31 - 41).
iii) Matthew 24:42 - 51
Judgment at this Time - His Rejection of the Foolish Virgins who Failed to be His Bride together with the unbelievers (Matthew 24:42 - 51).
- iv) Matthew 25:1 - 12
He does NOT change His Decision for His Choice of His Wise Virgin-Bride because only His Bride (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17, not being Lawless (Matthew 7:21 - 23), LOVES Him back which is Proven by her obeying His Commands (John 14:15). No Man wishes to marry someone who does not love him back (quoted in Principle, Revelation 19:7 - 9), hence He says, "I never knew you" (Matthew 25:1 - 13).
Please note that we do NOT earn His Love by obeying His Commands because He even Loves His Enemies too (Matthew 5:44). By obeying His Commands, we prove our Love to Him (John 14:15) and those who don't obey Him don't love Him back (John 15:14, Luke 6:46). So, the reward is way greater and incomparable (the hundredfold) toward those who 'love Him (God)' back (John 8:51, John 14:23, John 5:24, 1 Corinthians 2:9) being Part of the First Resurrection (Luke 20:35 - 36), being the Immortals (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6) during His 1000 years on this 'Day of this Age' (2 Peter 3:18 - YLT) - Millennial Reign next in the current [Old] Earth and [Old] Heavens too (Revelation 20:4 - 6).
- v) Matthew 25:14 - 30
He signifies going to a far away country (for His Marriage with His Bride in the [Old] Heavens with Selected Worthy guests only, Matthew 25:14) leaving the [Old] Earth to the hands of the 'Jews' (slaves - mortal sinners, Matthew 25:15, Isaiah 65:20)' to prove themselves during this Last Day of this AGE for 1000 years in the Millennial Reign of Christ (Matthew 25:16 - 18) to fulfill the Famous Jewish Oracles (Prophesies regarding the Restoration of Israel under the Messiah) where at the end of this 1000 years He will Return to Judge these 'Jews' first on Judgment Day (Matthew 25:19 - 30).
- vi) Matthew 25:31 - 46
Yes, only after the 1000 years are finished, He Returns this Time on His Great White Throne (Matthew 25:31) to Judge All Mankind from the rest of the 'nations' (Gentiles) on 'Judgment Day' (Matthew 25:32 - 46) too (Acts 17:31).
I repeat (with Consecutive Verses from Revelation and Daniel too - Please note that the Consecutive Verses in Daniel 7 are Written in 'Reverse' timeline order - Amazing, isn't it?)
Before and During the Antichrist Times (Matthew 24:4 - 28, Daniel 11, Revelation 11 - 18).
First half of the Antichrist's Reign (Matthew 24:4 - 14, Revelation 11:2 - 3, Daniel 7:19) till the Two Witnesses are Killed (Revelation 11:7).
War in Heaven in the Middle of the Antichrist's Reign (Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12: 7 - 12) after the Antichrist sets himself up as 'god' being the 'abomination in desolation' (Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - please note the phrase 'MIDDLE of the WEEK' in Daniel 9:27 'carefully' to 'realize' this).
Second half of the Antichrist's Reign (Matthew 24:16 - 29, Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:12, Revelation 13:5 all the way to Revelation 18, Daniel 7:20 - 21, Daniel 7:23 - 25, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:6 - 7, Daniel 12:11 - 12).
Christ's Glorious Return (Matthew 24:30 - 31, Revelation 19:11 - 21, Daniel 7:26, Daniel 7:13).
Christ's Marriage with His Bride (Matthew 24:32 - 51 and Matthew 25:1 - 13, Revelation 19: 7 - 10).
Christ's 1000 years Millennial Reign with His Bride (Matthew 25:14 - 30, Revelation 20:4 - 6, Daniel 7:22, Daniel 7:27, Daniel 7:14, Daniel 7:18) where Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit during this entire Time Period (Revelation 20:1 - 3).
Judgment Day (Matthew 25:31 - 46, Revelation 20:11 - 15, Daniel 7:9 - 12) after the 1000 years Millennial Reign is over (Revelation 20:7 - 10).
Yes, the Timeline Context of Consecutive Verses (Matthew, Daniel & Revelation agree Perfectly as illustrated above). Can you see it now?
1) Heaven or Heavens?
It's mostly plural in the New Testament Usage:
"and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matthew 3:2, BLB)
2) Hope for ALL CREATION
Does ALL CREATION include even the 'enemies of God' in its Biblical Definition (especially in the Irrefutable Context of Consecutive Verses)? Yes, please consider:
Kingdom of the Heavens is the Broadest Definition which includes the Whole World because the Reign of the Heavens will Include over ALL CREATION (Mark 16:15, Colossians 1:23 - Prophetic, Romans 1:20) including the ENEMIES of God too (1 Corinthians 15:25 - 26) in the END (1 Corinthians 15:24) where these too will be SUBJECTED to Him eventually (1 Corinthians 15:27 - 28), meaning that 'even the enemies of God will cease to be enemies eventually' being part of the ALL [Created] THINGS being SUBJECTED to Him eventually as Prophesied Beautifully toward this END (1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28) which will be Fulfilled in is OWN APPOINTED TIMES (1 Timothy 2:6, Ephesians 1:9 - 10) as He Brings about the RESTORATION [Apocatastasis - in Greek] of ALL [Created] THINGS as it was Prophesied from the 'age' by His holy prophets (Acts 3:21).
When this Prophetic HOPE of the GOSPEL applies to ALL CREATION (including non-living and non-rational creation) eventually (Colossians 1:23, Mark 16:15) it will HEAL them & PERFECT them setting them FREE from the BONDAGE of DECAY (sin and its effects) into the GLORIOUS LIBERTY or FREEDOM (only sharing in this aspect/area/topic) of the 'sons of God' (the Church/His Bride, Romans 8:19), meaning that ALL CREATION being in BIRTH PANGS will be BORN AGAIN eventually (Romans 8:22) into this HOPE (Romans 8:20 - 21) via His "Two Way RECONCILIATION" (Colossians 1:20) which is Prophesied Majestically to come to Pass toward ALL CREATED THINGS (Colossians 1:16) where 'believers' (a special subset, 1 Timothy 4:10) are the only ones 'Reconciled' to Him NOW in the PRESENT TIME on EARTH itself (Colossians 1:21 - 22).
3) HOPE for All Men
Will everyone be Saved & enter into the kingdom of the heavens? Yes, "eventually".
Does this HOPE include the WICKED or UNGODLY from among ALL MEN too? Can God be that Good & Perfect? Yes.
I mean, is there Hope for All including the 'enemies' (i.e. including the ones who break His Commands too) to be IN His Kingdom of the Heavens Eventually? Yes & it is Mercifully Prophesied in Verse below in LOVE:
"Whoever then shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach others the same, he will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever shall keep and shall teach them, he will be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19, NASB)
The word 'IN' in Matthew 5:19 signifies that the 'command breakers of ALL Law and Prophets, Context Matthew 5:17 - 18' will ENTER and be INSIDE of the Kingdom of Heavens eventually in whatever location they are permitted to enter, as God Wills (Matthew 5:19).
Well, LOVE (Agape = God's Divine LOVE, Highest) is the Bond of Perfection (Colossians 3:14) & its Fruit such as MERCY can Triumph over any afterlife Judgment Sentence (being AGAINST even the 'eternal Hell sentence with no mercy first' which we may deserve & endure till the last penny first, Luke 12:59) ENDING it eventually (in Principle of James 2:13).
Does this Glorious HOPE of the Gospel in regards to be MADE ALIVE (after the 'resurrection for judgment' first for some- John 5:28 - 29, where both body + soul will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, Gehenna - Matthew 10:28 & their 'spirit' will be part of the 'resurrection of the dead toward being MADE ALIVE' - Context: 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) include ALL MEN even the WICKED too post that [Final Afterlife] Judgment in the Lake of Fire? Yes:
"having a HOPE in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - apostle Paul (Acts 24:15, NASB)
I repeat [with emphasis mine throughout this write up too]:
"having a HOPE in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection [to life, Context: apostle Paul's own words in 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22 toward ALL who die in Adam which is ALL men who will be MADE ALIVE, i.e. be Resurrected to LIFE in Christ too] of both the righteous and the WICKED." - apostle Paul (Acts 24:15, NASB)
Are we really 'able' to 'see' which resurrection 'apostle Paul was referring to' (resurrection for Judgment or Resurrection to Life)?
Some Christians are 'unaware' that many branches of Judaism do NOT have a concept of eternal Hell at all (agreeing to the 'Context' of 'which HOPE' is apostle Paul referring to in Acts 24:15 above) & also that Judaism Generally has some form of Universalism toward ALL MEN except for a 'few enemies of the Jews such as Hitler to be annihilated' (an exception clause created by them which is biased toward Jew-Haters in an attempt to frighten anti-Semitics, but this 'exception clause' is a 'man-made addition' which is NOT Written in Scripture).
Example for ALL MEN (All Human Beings), it is Prophesied Majestically as follows:
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [drag, fish-out] ALL MEN to Myself.” - Lord Jesus Christ (John 12:32, BSB)
Yes, 'believers' (His Church) are a more 'special subset out of the ALL MEN' for 'believing & obeying Him first':
"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have FIXED our HOPE on the Living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of believers." - apostle Paul regarding this HOPE (1 Timothy 4:10, NASB)
Please notice that in 1 Timothy 4:10,
- a) as 'Saviour of especially believers' ---> God Saves all believers which is His Work Alone.
So, likewise in Perfect analogy by usage in this Verse (without adding/removing anything - CONSISTENT linguistics with NO Manipulation), we find also the following meaning 'literally':
- b) as 'Saviour of ALL MEN' ---> God Saves ALL MEN too eventually.
Salvation of ALL MEN is His Work Alone as apostle Paul explains 'what he meant in his own words' in this 'same letter' using the 'all men' phrase as follows in regards to this 'same Topic' as 'God our Saviour' (Irrefutable Context - the VERB in Greek denoting WILL HAVE is Translated Well in the KJV making the meaning even more clearer):
"Who [God our Saviour - 1 Timothy 2:3 first] will have ALL MEN to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 24 - KJV)
So, we ought to give thanks for ALL MEN (as apostle Paul gives an example of some 'subset out of the ALL MEN' in 1 Timothy 2:1) being 'priests of God' (His Church, Revelation 20:4 - 6) in knowing this Fact Prophetically making 'sense that our prayers for the Salvation of ALL MEN will eventually be Fulfilled in THAT DAY (John 14:13 being Prophesied with John 16:23, a specific Time for the Fulfillment of ALL our Requests eventually post-afterlife Judgment too which was according to the Will of God, James 4:3 with 1 John 3:22, 1 John 5:14)'.
We only know this things more in THAT DAY when all these Prophecies are being fulfilled:
"In THAT DAY you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ASK the Father for ANYTHING in My name, He WILL GIVE it to you. In THAT DAY you will ask in My Name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;" - Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:23, 26, NASB)
"In THAT DAY you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:20, NASB)
For example, John 14:13 with John 16:23, 26 allows His Believers (His Church, His Bride, Revelation 21:7 - Overcomes) to ask God to even Save from the Lake of Fire (Revelation 22:17) toward the 'thirsty-failed-wicked ones' (Revelation 21:6) as Part of HIS WILL to Make ALL [Created] THINGS NEW (Context: Revelation 21:5 first) agreeing Perfectly to His Unchangeable Principle in 1 John 5:14 as even the Ancient Christian-Judaism Sibyline Prophesies also Reveals Beautifully (post below):
4) Kingdom of the Heavens
Kingdom of the Heavens = Kingdom of God + Paradise + City of the New Jerusalem + Outside the City Regions + New Earth + New Heavens
How is God Just if the wicked also get the same things as the righteous eventually?
This is a popular FALSE accusation. The Wicked do NOT get the same things as per the righteous at all. Even among the righteous there is distinction in rewards and glory according to what each has done only even in regards to the 'spiritual body's glory as well' (1 Corinthians 15:38 - 49).
The Wicked do NOT inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10) and only the righteous inherit the kingdom (Matthew 25:34, 1 Corinthians 6:11).
Even among the righteous, there is a difference in the level of inheritance (hundredfold vs sixty fold vs thirty fold - as per Mark 4:8, implied even in Matthew 5:19).
We know that Mark 4:8 ONLY refers to the RIGHTEOUS due to the phrase 'Good Soil' in this Verse itself. A righteous one is one who 'believes in faith' (Romans 1:17) and that's why for 'his faith' the 'thief on the cross received the sixty fold reward of Paradise' (Luke 23:43).
How do I know that the thief on the cross received a sixty fold reward of Paradise? Please consider the explanation below:
Mark 4:11 - 12 reveals literally that in regards to the Topic of the 'Kingdom of God' such as the 'thirty-sixty-hundredfold' inheritance (Mark 4:8 - 9 - Context of Consecutive Verses), as only the disciples knew 'secret things' (NOT revealed to others, implying that these are NOT Written in Mark 4 itself). Hence, it is valid that we look for earliest 'reliable' Christian Writings (if it exists) to see if any early church leaders 'knew it'.
Is there such a Writing which may reveal this Secret in regards to the Differences in the Kingdom of God? Yes, please consider:
‘A fragment from the early 2nd century of one of the lost volumes of Papias, a Christian bishop, expounds that “heaven” was separated into three distinct layers. He referred to the first as just “heaven”, the second as “paradise”, and the third as “the city”. Papias taught that “there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce a hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold’ (Papias, Fagments 5:1)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Christianity
and this too:
"… And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.
[They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.”
For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father,” (Iraneous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book 5, Chapter 36: 1 – 2)
Please note that Mark 4:11 defines the Definition of the 'Kingdom of God' to be a specific inheritance for 'believers only' to whom the 'Good Soil' refers to who produce either a thirtyfold, sixtyfold or hundredfold (in Mark 4:8) gaining the reward of City, Paradise or Heaven respectively as per Papias and Irenaeous' revelation of this secret. This proves that a different level of reward exists among those who believe too.
What's the difference between the Kingdom of God & the Kingdom of the Heavens or even Paradise or the City of the New Jerusalem?
Kingdom of God = Heaven + Paradise + New Jerusalem City
Hence, the Kingdom of God (in Full, reward for the Hundredfold believers) consists of all three Heavens, Paradise and the Great City.
This 'Kingdom of God' will NOT be inherited by the wicked at all (1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10) and its Power begins on this [Old] Earth itself within 'believers' (Luke 17:21). The Wicked will be 'outside' the Great City of the New Jerusalem even (Revelation 22:15) where these after their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8) will be able to drink of the River of Life freely which must flow 'outside' to these regions (a 'river flows') as Revelation 22:17 Mercifully Prophesies as well toward 'anyone who thirsts' as God Gives this Gift of Life in sinless-ness eventually FREELY (unmerited, unearned, undeserved - Revelation 21:6).
Yes, the non-thirsty Overcomers (believers) get an 'Inheritance' even toward all things beyond just being 'sinless & saved' (Contrasted in Revelation 21:7). That's why believers have 'living water' from 'within them' (John 7:38) as part of the 'kingdom of God within you' (so, they don't drink it 'externally' - Luke 17:21).
In light of all these, the Kingdom of the Heavens consists of the 'Kingdom of God' (which refers to Heaven, Paradise & the City in its Manifestation of Location later) which is for 'those who obey His Commands, being 'great' in Matthew 5:19 ----> while on the 'outside of the Kingdom of God' we find the 'other parts of the Earth & other unnamed regions (as there may be) - for those who break His Commands, being 'least' in Matthew 5:19'.
Kingdom of the Heavens = 'inside the Kingdom of God regions' + 'outside the Kingdom of God regions'
Where,
'inside the Kingdom of God regions' = Heaven (Hundredfold believers), Paradise (Sixtyfold believers), City (Thirtyfold believers) referring only to the believers ('Good Soil') in Mark 4:8 - 12, where one from the higher regions may go to any of the lower regions even into the outside but not vice versa, (I believe it like that).
'outside the Kingdom of God regions' = for the formerly-wicked to dwell (other parts of the Earth & other unnamed regions)
The 'outside the Kingdom of God regions' is also Spoken of ("implied") in the Shepherd of Hermas Book, to quote:
15[92]:3 Hear,” saith he, “likewise the names of the women that wear the black garments. Of these also four are more powerful than the rest; the first is Unbelief; the second, Intemperance; the third, Disobedience; the fourth, Deceit; and their followers are called, Sadness, Wickedness, Wantonness, Irascibility, Falsehood, Folly, Slander, Hatred. The servant of God that beareth these names shall SEE the kingdom of God, but shall NOT ENTER into it.” (Shepherd of Hermas)
Source and further explanations regarding the meaning of the above (in link below):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-visions/
P/S: The Gospel Reveals
Lord Jesus Christ Reveals in His Gospel the things pertaining to the End of Time which was 'sealed' in Daniel's Times too (hence we cannot find the answer in the Old Testament alone whilst ignoring the New Testament Verses):
"But as for you, Daniel, Conceal these Words and Seal up the Book until the End of Time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase." (Daniel 12:4, NASB)
What's the advantage to believe all these?
Most of the Verse quoted here relate to the PROPHECY found in Holy Scripture (future things) and some writings of the most respected early church leaders of their time (e.g. Papias, Irenaeous - righteous men) in regards to these things.
Hence the Verse below mentions the 'Reward' (most likely in the afterlife) for ACCEPTING these men as BOTH (as 'prophets' & as 'righteous men') instead of 'opposing them' (as some Rebellious Christianity does - of which we STRONGLY DISAGREE with such behaviour - please, be wise as I'm pretty sure that Papias, Irenaeous are very close to Lord Jesus Christ & will be in the Heavens post Resurrection):
"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:41, NASB)
We also get this RARELY known RIGHTEOUSNESS without WORKS when we believe in God JUSTIFYING the WICKED (or UNGODLY) too as Prophesied in LOVE by Holy Scripture (God does NOT Change & His Perfect LOVE does NOT Fail NOR End, 1 Corinthians 13 toward His ENEMIES too - Irrefutable, - Matthew 5:44 as He will CANCEL all 'hate your enemy - Judgment Concept & Sentences' eventually (Matthew 5:43) as it was with the Old Testament after these are Fulfilled (Hebrews 8:13), Context of Consecutive Verses in Matthew 5:43 - 44, Irrefutable, yet again):
"But to the one who does NOT WORK, but believes in Him who JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY [Wicked], his FAITH is credited as RIGHTEOUSNESS," - apostle Paul (Romans 4:5, NASB)
Let's 'not' miss out the 'fuller rewards' in light of all these 'Bible Verses'. Do not lose heart even if you fall because:
"Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time." (Daniel 11:35, NASB)
Peace to you
Authorities in Doctrine - Sabbath, Tithing and the Law of Moses
Question
How to understand what apostle Paul meant in Verse below?
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" - apostle Paul (Colossians 2:16, KJV)
Reply
This time I will quote St. Justin Martyr (100AD to 165AD) and St. Irenaeous of Lyons (140AD to 202AD) regarding this Topic and we 'preach the SAME thing' (as per principle on 1 Corinthians 1:10-KJV too).
It CANNOT be that these two earliest saints (after the apostles of Christ & their direct prebysters themselves) could have 'misunderstood' this Topic.
Please consider:
1) Justin's Dialogue with the Jew-Trypho
All quotes from Justin are from the Translation Source below:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
Trypho: 'If, then, you are willing to listen to me (for I have already considered you a friend), first be circumcised, then observe what ordinances have been enacted with respect to the Sabbath, and the feasts, and the new moons of God; and, in a word, do all things which have been written in the law: and then perhaps you shall obtain mercy from God'
Trypho: 'But this is what we are most at a loss about: that you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified, you yet expect to obtain some good thing from God, while you do not obey His commandments. Have you not read, that soul shall be cut off from his people who shall not have been circumcised on the eighth day?'
(i) Justin claims that the Sabbath of the New Covenant are NOT the current earthly sabbaths as it is observed by Jews or Christians now.
Justin: "I also adduced another passage in which Isaiah exclaims: "'Hear My words, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, ... You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure."
(ii) Justin affirms that that we do NOT observe those rites which do not harm us,-- speaking of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts.
Justin: "For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,--namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us,--I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?"
(iii) Justin implies that there is NO Circumcision, NO Sabbaths NOR Tithes even for Gentile Believers (Gentile Christians)
Justin: "This circumcision is not, however, necessary for all men [including Gentiles], but for you [Jews] alone ... Noah was the beginning of our race; yet, uncircumcised, along with his children he went into the ark. Melchizedek, the priest of the Most High, was UNCIRCUMCISED; to whom also Abraham the first who received circumcision after the flesh, gave TITHES, and he blessed him: after whose order God declared, by the mouth of David, that He would establish the everlasting priest.
Therefore to YOU [Jews] ALONE this circumcision was necessary, in order that the people may be no people, and the nation no nation; as also Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, declares. Moreover, all those RIGHTEOUS MEN already mentioned, though they kept NO SABBATHS, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses, under whom your nation appeared unrighteous and ungrateful to God, making a calf in the wilderness: wherefore God, accommodating Himself to that nation, enjoined them also to offer sacrifices, as if to His name, in order that you might not serve idols. Which precept, however, you have not observed; nay, you sacrificed your children to demons. And you were commanded to keep Sabbaths, that you might retain the memorial of God. For His word makes this announcement, saying, 'That ye may know that I am God who redeemed you.'."
Justin confirms in the above that the believing Jews may continue to 'keep the Law of Moses' (Acts 21:24) but the Gentile believers observe 'no' such thing (Acts 21:25) beyond the Decision of the Apostolic Council in Acts 15.
Please notice carefully that Justin implies that there is NO Sabbaths NOR Tithes observance for 'Gentile believers' (or all men in general) and though he quotes Melchizedek in the above passage, he NEVER uses 'Melchizedek receiving tithes from Abraham to enforce tithing doctrine toward Gentile believers' as some Modern Denominations do.
Can you REALLY see who is teaching 'falsely' now? Shocked?
(iv) Justin explains that there is NO such thing as an ETERNAL LAW regarding ENFORCING the LAW of MOSES Contents such as Sabbaths, Circumcision, Tithing etc., Generally.
Justin: "Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye pay TITHE of mint and rue... For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done FOOLISHLY in ADDING some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements'."
Justin: "But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd.... Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or Of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham."
(v) Justin explains that even if the Jewish believers (i.e. those 'who are descended from Jacob' in the flesh) fail to comply by the Law of Moses, they will still get Salvation due to believing in Christ.
Justin: "I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts."
(vi) Trypho accuses Justin of 'skipping' the Sabbath (or Law observing Scripture) to fit his own interpretation.
Trypho: "Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: 'If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'"
Justin: "For they are all gone aside,' He exclaims, 'they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. ... So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it.... He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His.... Or why did He not teach those--who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths--to keep these institutions?"
(vii) Justin explains the 'Sunday' (the 'Day after the Sabbath') to be different and NOT the same in which Christians may willingly gather (NOT a religious obligation).
Justin: "the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, ... He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, ... The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first day after the Sabbath, remaining the first of all the days, is called, however, the eighth, according to the number of all the days of the cycle, and [yet] remains the first."
(viii) Trypho asks if Gentile-Christians who observe the Sabbath etc. will be saved or not?
Trypho: "But if some one, knowing that this is so, after he recognises that this man is Christ, and has believed in and obeys Him, wishes, however, to observe these [institutions], will he be saved?"
Justin replies 'his opinion' under the condition that 'if such a weak Gentile Christian doesn't try to enforce such observance upon others':
Justin: "In my opinion, Trypho, such an one will be saved, if he does not strive in every way to persuade other men,--I mean those Gentiles who have been circumcised from error by Christ, to observe the same things as himself, telling them that they will not be saved unless they do so. This you did yourself at the commencement of the discourse, when you declared that I would not be saved unless I observe these institutions."
Justin is questioned regarding 'his opinion' above in that a Gentile believer who keeps the Law of Moses in some way (e.g. the 'Messianic Jews') may be saved too.
Trypho: "Why then have you said, 'In my opinion, such an one will be saved,' unless there are some who affirm that such will not be saved?"
Justin: "But if, Trypho," I continued, "some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them.
But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved.
Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved, and especially those who have anathematized and do anathematize this very Christ in the synagogues, and everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire. For the goodness and the loving-kindness of God, and His boundless riches, hold righteous and sinless the man who, as Ezekiel tells, repents of sins; and reckons sinful, unrighteous, and impious the man who fails away from piety and righteousness to unrighteousness and ungodliness. Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, 'In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you.' "
(ix) Who is the Weak vs Strong Gentile Christian?
Justin mentions that such Gentile Christians who keep the Law of Moses are not 'strong Christians as they claim' but are actually 'weak Christians' (please don't get angry as it is NOT my words, but Justin's).
Justin: "But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people's hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho," I continued, "some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them."
2) St. Irenaeous of Lyons
All quotes from Iraneous are from the Translation Source below:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
Question
What does this Verse mean then if it does not refer to Sabbath Observance for Gentile Christians?
"So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God." (Hebrews 4:6, NASB)
Reply
This 'Sabbath' time refers to the Last Day of this Age when His 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ is Established here on this [Old] Earth itself (Revelation 20:4 - 6) as Irenaeous himself explains below:
Irenaeous: "And for this reason the Lord declared, "When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just." And again He says, "Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world [age] an hundred-fold, and in that [age] to come he shall inherit eternal [age-during] life." For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the TRUE SABBATH of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes."
Irenaeous: "Now, in the preceding book I have shown that all the disciples of the Lord are Levites and priests, they who used in the temple to profane the SABBATH, but are blameless. Promises of such a nature, therefore, do indicate in the clearest manner the feasting of that creation in the kingdom of the righteous, which God promises that He will Himself serve."
So it is clear that the Sabbath referred to in Hebrews 4:6 is certainly NOT your weekly Saturday/Sunday gathering.
[emphasis mine at times for clarity]
P/S: Does your church teach the 'same' regarding this Topic in regards to Justin and Irenaeous?
If all these are NOT important, why did Justin and Irenaeous write so much in regards to this Topic as opposed to the 'Topic of Prosperity now on Earth - the Practical Life stuff' (which is more popularly preached in 'sermons' in churches today) but these Heroes of Faith never discussed such Topics at all? Shocked again?
Please ponder a moment: Could they have gotten this 'simple' Topic Wrong and you are right when you teach contrarily to this? (both quoting these 'same' Verses?)
Did you notice that the Verses in 1 Corinthians 14:37, Acts 21:24 - 25, Acts 15, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:7 all point to Justin and Irenaeous being right?
I will believe your 'modern interpretation' if you can quote saints earlier than Justin & Irenaeous who are 'bigger' authorities in doctrine than them speaking the 'same' as you do from any 'writing'. It doesn't exist, right? See the problem here?
An Important Comment: Age-during or Eternal?
Both Justin and Irenaeous wrote in Koine Greek as per the New Testament Inspired Writing. So, Last but not least, please note that in the same breath, Justin calls these 'eternal ordinances' to be NOT observed anymore (implied) in his own words. Is this a contradiction? NO, simply because the actual Greek Word is 'Aion or Eon' or its Hebrew equivalent is 'Olam' which is 'pertaining to the age' or 'to the age' only where sometimes it is errorneously translated also as 'world to come' (instead of the correct, 'age to come').
Can you see that the LITERAL 'age-during' meaning of 'aion or eon' is established here by 'Justin or Irenaeous own usage' itself in their own writings implying that when these apply this word for the punishment of the Wicked (e.g. 'age during chastisement' in Matthew 25:46 using this same Greek word), it does NOT mean 'eternal Hell or everlasting punishment' but to that 'particular age ONLY'.
Let's not teach against these 'actual authorities of doctrine' lest we become 'deceivers & impostors' as it was Prophesied by the apostle of the Gentiles himself:
"But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." - apostle Paul (2 Timothy 3:13, NASB)
How am I the heretic if it is your church which teaches contrary to both Justin and Irenaeous regarding this Topic as well?
Who is the real Christian now?
As Charles Spurgeon said, 'Discernment is not knowing between right & wrong but rather in knowing between right and almost right'.
In light of all these quotes & teachings by Justin & Irenaeous himself, is your 'popular modern denomination' (even though it may have 60 million converts or so) right or even 'saved'? Please ponder 'deeply' before calling me a 'heretic'.
Shalom
Two Resurrections - Man as Sheepfold1, Sheepfold2 and the Wicked
1) First Resurrection - Resurrection of the Just
Resurrection of the Just (His Bride, believers in Faith only, Sheepfold1 in John 10:14 - Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17) who come under NO afterlife Judgment (John 5:24) having been Judged on earth itself during their temporal lives prior (Hebrews 12:6, Revelation 3:19, Proverbs 3:12).
2) Second Resurrection - General Resurrection
General Resurrection toward Sheepfold2 in John 10:16 & the wicked (Revelation 20:7, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29) followed by the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11 - 15, Romans 2:5 - 8,) to the Jew first (Matthew 25:14 - 30, Romans 2:9 - 12, Romans 2:17 - 25) and Gentile next (Matthew 25:31 - 46, Romans 2:13 - 16, Romans 2:26 - 29).
Against Heresies (Example):
"Irenaeus declares that the Antichrist's future three-and-a-half-year reign, when he sits in the temple at Jerusalem, will be terminated by the second advent, with the resurrection of the just, the destruction for the wicked, and the millennial reign of the righteous. The general resurrection and the judgment follow the descent of the New Jerusalem at the end of the millennial kingdom."
Source:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Irenaeus#Time.2C_Times_and_Half_a_Time
Conclusion
"Why should any living mortal, or any man, Offer complaint in view of his sins?" (Lamentations 3:39, NASB)
How do we know that the 'General Resurrection' which is after about 1000 years from the First Resurrection contains Sheepfold2 to mean the 'righteous who did NOT believe in Lord Jesus Christ during their earthly lives prior'?
Two ancient quotes prove this Irrefutably (below, one from Justin Martyr & the other from Shepherd of Hermas which reveals that to such a 'righteous who did not believe in Christ on Earth prior, these will believe Him in the afterlife AFTER Seeing Him' or 'hearing about Him there', agreeing to the Mystery in John 3:14 - 15 and John 6:40), please consider:
1) Justin Martyr implies the existence of Sheepfold2.
(i) A Quote:
'In the early Church, Justin Martyr, a Church Father, taught that those who lived according to the logos are Christians, though they might not know about Jesus Christ.'
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_of_the_unlearned
(ii) From Justin's own writing in his own words revealing this 'secret':
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
"But lest some should, without reason, and for the perversion of what we teach, maintain that we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius, and subsequently, in the time of Pontius Pilate, taught what we say He taught; and should cry out against us as though all men who were born before Him were irresponsible--let us anticipate and solve the difficulty.
We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious.
So that even they who lived before Christ, and lived without reason, were wicked and hostile to Christ, and slew those who lived reasonably. But who, through the power of the Word, according to the will of God the Father and Lord of all, He was born of a virgin as a man, and was named Jesus, and was crucified, and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, an intelligent man will be able to comprehend from what has been already so largely said. And we, since the proof of this subject is less needful now, will pass for the present to the proof of those things which are urgent." - Justin Martyr (Chapter 46, CHAPTER XLVI -- THE WORD IN THE WORLD BEFORE CHRIST)
Comment: Please note carefully the words such as 'atheists', 'barbarians' etc. to realize this fact.
Christian Theologians often remark that 'this is for those before Christ' and Justin refers to them as an example, yes. He does NOT limit it as per their claim. That's a lie and it is EASILY REFUTED by Justin's own words in the above (translation). How?
Justin's quote 'So that even they who lived before Christ ... And we, since the proof of this subject is less needful now, will pass for the present to the proof of those things which are urgent' ---> means that he quotes 'famous good people - generally' such as Socrates etc. to be 'saved' to 'prove his Biblical claim'.
Also, Justin's quote 'We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious.' ---> Justin is claiming the Salvation of Sheepfold2 in a 'General Manner' first here as he only describes the 'example proof' part next evidenced by the phrase 'So that even they who lived before Christ..' to 'prove his general claim toward those of the past too’.
This proves that Justin is claiming the Salvation of Sheepfold2 in a 'General Manner' as per apostle Paul's Revelation of the Judgment of God in Romans 2 itself agreeing to Lord Jesus Christ's OWN WORDS in John 5:28 - 29, that these are those 'who did GOOD deeds' and Matthew 25:31 - 46 as well describes them as having done GOOD DEEDS only (yes, there is NO mention of 'belief in Christ during the Great White Throne Judgment' in Revelation 20:11 - 15, Matthew 25:31 - 46, Romans 2 and John 5:28 - 29 which Describe this 'General Resurrection' - where 'obedience' is measured with respect to GOOD DEEDS only & NOT belief at all - let's NOT add to His Word, and this Proves that Justin Martyr is right).
2) The Shepherd of Hermas Book implies the existence of Sheepfold2 also.
The Description above is regarding the Lord’s Descent and Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead (1 Peter 3:18 – 20). The ‘Shepherd of Hermas’ Book (which Iraneous considers as Scripture) mentions that the Gospel is Preached to the Dead even by the apostles, hence it’s NOT a one time event (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:5 – 6), to quote:
Shepherd of Hermas (1st or 2nd Century CE), Ninth Similitude IX, 16:5-7 Writes:
‘These, the apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and the faith of the Son of God, preached also… to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. Therefore, they went down with them into the water, and came up again… So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God.’
Source for that phD thesis by Marietjie du Toit (most likely an ‘eternal Hell’ believer):
https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/27130/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1
Comment: I repeat, I may NOT agree with the author’s deductions on ‘who’s right or wrong’ but I stick to the historical quotes found here. Please note that in the quote above, the Shepherd of Hermas Book mentions that this Preaching is done by the 'apostles and teachers' (agreeing to 1 Peter 4:6 in that the 'Gospel is indeed Preached to the Dead') and it is NOT the Christ's First Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead as 1 Peter 3:18 - 20 mentions proving Irrefutably that it was NOT a 'one time occurrence only toward those who existed before Christ' (as so easily & popularly erred against these TRUE & EARLIEST AUTHORITIES of Doctrine).
Can you SEE it now?
"Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar." (Proverbs 30:6, NASB)
P/S: The 'First and Best' of Christians know this Mystery or Secret
Example: Sadhu Sundar Singh
It is well known that Sadhu Sundar Singh mentioned regarding "Hindu Saints" who have believed in Lord Jesus Christ in the 'afterlife' after enduring some Judgment for their 'unbelief' first (Hebrews 9:27) as illustrated in his visions of heaven and hell (in link below):
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/sadhu-sundar-singh-a-christian-universalist/
Please note that Sadhu Sundar Singh's visions are consistent with the Shepherd of Hermas afterlife Vision. These are Consistent with Christ Centered Universalism, for example:
- Shepherd of Hermas regarding 'no afterlife repentance is possible'
All ‘Verses’ Quoted here are from this free online Translation of the Shepherd of Hermas (in link below) unless otherwise stated:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html
Example: Christians who backslide from the Truth – the Rejected Stones
Bible Verses:
“So then, you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:20 – 23, NASB)
“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES” (Hebrews 10:26 – 27, NASB)
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4 – 6, NASB)
26[103]:6 “And this I say not in reference to these days, that a man after denying should receive repentance; for it is impossible for him to be saved who shall now deny his Lord; but for those who denied Him long ago repentance seemeth to be possible. If a man therefore will repent, let him do so speedily before the tower is completed; but if not, he shall be destroyed by the women and put to death.” (Shepherd of Hermas)
What is meant by “no repentance is possible after death” for ‘such Christians’ described in Verses above?
To quote from the Shepherd of Hermas (‘not’ my opinion – please take note):
7[15]:3 But the others, which are near the waters and yet cannot roll into the water, wouldest thou know who are they? These are they that heard the word, and would be baptized unto the name of the Lord. Then, when they call to their remembrance the purity of the truth, they change their minds, and go back again after their evil desires.”
7[15]:4 So she finished the explanation of the tower.
7[15]:5 Still importunate, I asked her further, whether for all these stones that were rejected and would not fit into the building of the tower that was repentance, and they had a place in this tower. “They can repent,” she said, “but they cannot be fitted into this tower.
7[15]:6 Yet they shall be fitted into another place much more humble, but not until they have undergone torments, and have fulfilled the days of their sins. And they shall be changed for this reason, because they participated in the Righteous Word; and then shall it befall them to be relieved from their torments, if the evil deeds, that they have done, come into their heart; but if these come not into their heart, they are not saved by reason of the hardness of their hearts.”
The Shepherd of Hermas clearly reveals that “no repentance is possible” links to them NOT being part of the ‘tower of repentance’ which describes the HIGHER INHERITANCE LOT which is ‘only for believers in faith who obey His Commands’ (1 John 2:4, John 14:15).
The Shepherd of Hermas also describes that ‘these fallen believers of faith’ —> “Yet they shall be fitted into another place much more humble, but not until they have undergone torments, and have fulfilled the days of their sins.”
The Duration of their afterlife Judgment or Punishment is ’till the last penny only and NOT forever’, comparison phrases:
“And they shall be changed for this reason, because they participated in the Righteous Word; and then shall it befall them to be relieved from their torments, if the evil deeds, that they have done, come into their heart; but if these come not into their heart, they are not saved by reason of the hardness of their hearts.” [7[15]:6, Shepherd of Hermas] = “the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.” (Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 12:46, 57 – 59, NASB)
Source:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-visions/
- Sheepfold2 in the Shepherd of Hermas
Example, to quote (regarding afterlife Judgment and Repentance – Mystery of the Gospel being Preached to the Dead, 1 Peter 3:18 – 19, 1 Peter 4:5 – 6):
15[92]:2 “It was necessary for them,” saith he, “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life.
15[92]:3 So these likewise that had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. For before a man,” saith he, “has borne the name of [the Son of] God, he is dead; but when he has received the seal, he layeth aside his deadness, and resumeth life.
15[92]:4 The seal then is the water: so they go down into the water dead, and they come up alive. “thus to them also this seal was preached, and they availed themselves of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.”
15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching.
15[92]:6 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive.
15[92]:7 So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. For this cause also they came up with them, and were fitted with them into the building of the tower and were builded with them, without being shaped; for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal. Thou hast then the interpretation of these things also.” “I have, Sir,” say I.
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html
Comment:
The phrase “for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal” together with the phrase “came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God” with the phrase “others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive” ——> with the phrase “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life” —> seem to point 🤔 to “the Sheepfold2” (John 10:16) which refers to the “righteous in good works (e. g. John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2) who died without believing in Christ” but believed in Him ‘after seeing Him, John 6:40 (in the afterlife too, implied in John 3:14 – 15)’ as it is Discussed in Great Detail in Posts below regarding this Mystery for Edification:
Source:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-free-translation-secrets/
More details in line with this exegesis: Sheep and Goats – FAQ
Peace to you & Christ Triumphant!
Blessed be His Most Holy Name for His Unfathomable LOVE!
Lake of Fire Or Gehenna Final Judgment - Afraid or Not Afraid?
Introductory Question (rephrased)
Are you preaching fear based religion? Doesn't that cause people to go mental?
Introductory Reply
Fear has its Purpose for Judgment.
You don't need to be mental about it. Fear trains us to keep away from danger (its purpose). So, when we learn to 'keep away from danger' (being in a safe place such as 'abiding in His Love'- John 15:9 which is in the Context of Obeying His Commands - John 15:10, Context of Consecutive Verses), fear comes to an 'end' (in Principle of 1 John 4:18 with John 14:15 or John 15:14 too).
For example in nature, when we see a lion, we run away (quoted in Principle of Romans 1:20 in that 'His Attributes', e.g. 'fear when we see the lion (danger)' is clearly seen & understood from nature as well).
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." - apostle Paul (Romans 1:20, NASB)
So, fear keeps us from sinning (and is a punishment for those who continue to sin, 1 John 4:18) but toward others, the particular 'fear of God' becomes the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7) and wisdom (Proverbs 9:10), who thereafter keep from sinning due to Love are being Perfected (1 John 4:18, John 14:15).
God created both the Lion and the Lamb.
Question
Doesn't the Bible Teach "do not be afraid" cancelling out the "be afraid" part proving that God doesn't Judge because He Loves all?
Reply
1 Corinthians 13 clearly mentions that His Love does NOT rejoice in evil. It's Written in Scripture that His Judgment is done for the Purpose of Love too (that is to correct us as the Greek Word kolasin in 'kolasin aionion' or 'age-during chastisement' in Matthew 25:46 means).
The Word "Kolasin" is two edged meaning both 'Retribution followed by Betterment' ("Chastisement") during Judgment where the 'Retribution's level of Pain' is according to what one has done toward others only (Galatians 6:7, Isaiah 3:11, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7, Judging Evil - Principle of 'eye for an eye', Luke 12:59's till the Last Penny) which is followed by 'His Refiner's Fire which Purges or Purifies as well Medicinally thereafter' (Malachi 3:2, Mark 9:49, the 'Overcoming Evil with Good' part - Romans 12:21).
Please note that the "worm does not die & the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) is Written in the Context of "Everyone will be salted with Fire" (Mark 9:49) which is for "Good" (Mark 9:50, proving the 'Overcoming Evil context which is Good only' - Romans 12:21) as the Context of Consecutive Verses in Mark Prove but this Fire 'does NOT harm Sheepfold1 in any way as it does toward the rest' (Revelation 20:6) and only 'refines the quality of their work' (1 Corinthians 3:13 toward the Work built on the Foundation of Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Corinthians 3:12 where the work is measured against the Gospel - 1 Corinthians 3:11, toward others too Romans 2:16).
Regarding being afraid vs not being afraid, please consider the following contextual argument:
To say that 'we don't need to fear God' based on the 'do not be afraid Verses' is inaccurate & a popular fallacy by some preachers.
Here is what's actually Written 'accurately':
"And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, BLB)
Please read Matthew 10 carefully where
(i) Do not be afraid - Earthly Context
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and can do nothing more.
Means that it refers to not being afraid on earth in one's temporal life toward others (context) as the phrase 'kill the body and do nothing more refers to earth only'.
(ii) Be afraid - Afterlife Context
But rather be afraid of Him Who is able to Destroy both Body and Soul in Gehenna (Lake of Fire).
Body and Soul (and not 'body only') can only be destroyed after the 'resurrection for Judgment' for the wicked (John 5:28 - 29) proving afterlife Context of Judgment in the flesh in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire.
Peace
Conclusion
1) Fate of the Wicked or Goats
Who are the 'Wicked' or 'Goats' reserved for the Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment during His Great White Throne Judgment in regards to their 'resurrection of Judgment in the flesh' (John 5:28 - 29) where both 'body + soul only will have tribulation and be destroyed' (Matthew 10:28, Romans 2:9) toward "the dead" (Revelation 20:11 - 15, 1 Peter 4:5, Romans 2, Matthew 24:31 - 46) but these formerly wicked will live first in their spirit-state (1 Peter 4:6) post this Judgment (1 Peter 4:5) where their spirit will only be saved in the Day of Lord Jesus post this 'destruction of the flesh' (1 Corinthians 5:5)?
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8, NASB)
Please note that those "unbelieving" in verse above is well deserved to be in the Lake of Fire since they refuse to believe in Him when the Gospel is Preached to them in the afterlife too (in Principle of the Mystery echoed in John 3:14 - 15, John 6:40 in the Context of 'believing after seeing possibility' - see point 4 below in regards to the 'Gospel Preached to the Dead').
2) What's the meaning of the 'Resurrection of Judgment' for the Wicked (John 5:28 - 29) in the "flesh" (body + soul + spirit)?
To quote, a Definition first (by Justin Martyr, an early authority of doctrine):
Body, Soul Spirit – What are those in a Man?
To quote:
“The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved.” – Justin Martyr (Chapter 10 – The body saved, and will therefore rise, On the Resurrection)
Source:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm
Is the Soul Immortal? The soul is mortal just like the body according to Justin agreeing in that both the BODY and SOUL can be DESTROYED (i.e. CEASE to EXIST) as it is Declared by our Blessed Saviour Himself in regards to Gehenna (or Lake of Fire, in Matthew 10:28), to quote:
“But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.” – Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Tyrpho)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
More Details in regards to this?
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/last-afterlife-secrets-god-saves-from-hell/
3) What is the meaning of the Resurrection of Judgment toward the Destruction of the flesh?
Verses:
"and He gave Him authority to EXECUTE JUDGMENT, because He is the Son of Man. “Do NOT MARVEL at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the GOOD DEEDS to a Resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the EVIL DEEDS to a Resurrection of JUDGMENT." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:27 - 29, NASB)
"who [speak EVIL] will give account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. For to this end the GOSPEL was proclaimed even to THE DEAD, so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH, but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God." - apostle Peter (1 Peter 4:5 - 6, BLB)
"I have decided to deliver such a one to SATAN for the DESTRUCTION of HIS FLESH, so that HIS SPIRIT may be SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 5:5, NASB)
The "destruction of the flesh" (1 Corinthians 5:5) during the 'Judgment in the flesh after the resurrection (body + soul + spirit), for Judgment toward the wicked' (John 5:28 - 29) refers to their 'body + soul only being destroyed or cease to exist during this Gehenna or Lake of Fire Final Judgment' (so let's be afraid of God! Matthew 10:28, 1 Peter 4:5) where their 'spirit will be saved, yes they live in the spirit state first' (1 Peter 4:6) on the Day of Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 5:5).
The actual person to whom apostle Paul gave up and judged toward this Final Gehenna Judgment in the Lake of Fire due to his wickedness and attitude of unrepentance prior (implied) caused apostle Paul to 'Prophesy' this 'Final Judgment' on him in 1 Corinthians 5:5 but later as some scholars say that 'this sinful believer repented' & hence that prophesied Judgment is cancelled (2 Corinthians 2:6 - 8).
Yes, apostle Paul distinctly mentions the existence in the 'spirit state' (proving the distinction of body + soul + spirit in a Man, generally in 1 Thessalonians 5:23) by the phrase 'his spirit', referring to the 'wicked or fallen believer's spirit' in 1 Corinthians 5:5 which may be Saved on the Day of Lord Jesus (a specific future Time Period or Interval).
4) Gospel Preached to the Dead
Gospel is Preached to the Dead toward who are 'not wicked' but are of 'Sheepfold2' where though these did 'not' believe in Lord Jesus Christ during their earthy lives prior, they lived relatively-in-a-good manner agreeing to Gospel Principles. Hence, to them a chance may be given according to God's Decision (no one can trick God).
Example of the past '(human) spirits in prison' surviving in their 'spirit state' after the 'destruction of their soul in Hades prior' (implied toward these formerly disobedient ones fron the Time of Noah) is seen in 1 Peter 3:18 - 20 where Lord Jesus Christ Descended & Preached the Gospel to them to be "Saved" if they received Him as even St. Irenaeous Reveals this rarely understood truth:
‘the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching (evangelizantem) His advent there also and the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him’ - St. Irenaeus of Lyons (160-230 CE), [Prescriptions Against Heretics IV, 27:211]
Source & more proofs regarding this from earliest authorities of doctrine:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-of-the-gospel-being-preached-to-the-dead/
This is NOT a one time occurence of the 'Gospel being Preached to the Dead' for those 'before Christ only' as popularly erred as even the Shepherd of Hermas Writing (which is next to New Testament Scripture, meaning that it is 'higher' than any early church leaders' writing even endorsed by Pope Callixtus I, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeous too as 'Scripture') which reveals further that this 'Gospel Preaching to the Dead' was done next by the 40 apostles + teachers too after they died, to quote:
"15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching." (Shepherd of Hermas Book)
Source:
www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/shepherd-of-hermas-afterlife-judgment-and-repentance-faq/
To Prove that the 'Shepherd of Hermas Book' cannot be taken word to word as Scripture, one has to quote a proper authority in Doctrine 'before Pope Callixtus I, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeous' as authority is by Precedence ----> which doesn't exist. Can you see this Truth Irrefutably now? -----> This is in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20 when it relates to the meaning of Bible Verses such as 1 Peter 4:6 which proves the Shepherd of Hermas Verse above to be TRUE in that the 'Gospel being Preached to the Dead' is NOT a one time event (the first time was 1 Peter 3:18 - 20 by our Most Blessed Savior Himself).
Apostle Peter Reveals further that the "Gospel is Preached to the Dead" likewise in 1 Peter 4:6, generally causing the 'spirit to be saved in that these live to God after the destruction or Judgment in the flesh where at most body + soul may be destroyed in the Final Judgment (Matthew 10:28) when He Returns to Judge the living and the dead' (proving the Timeline of 1 Peter 4:5 to refer to the Final Gehenna or Lake of Fire Judgment - Revelation 20:11 - 15, Revelation 21:8) where these 'spirits belonging to the formerly wicked' may also 'live or be saved' likewise (1 Peter 4:6) in the Day of Lord Jesus (as apostle Paul Prophesied in 1 Corinthians 5:5 regarding this rarely known Mystery in regards to the Judgment of the Wicked or Fallen believers who share the 'same fate in regards to the Final Judgment', Luke 12:46).
So, 1 Corinthians 5:5 gives a rare glimpse of how apostle Paul understood the Final Gehenna Judgment in the Lake of Fire in the "resurrected flesh for Judgment" (John 5:28 - 29) toward the "unrepentant believers who share the same fate as the wicked" (Luke 12:46) in this 'unkindled Lake of Fire of the Second Death' (Context: Luke 12:49 first) which is only 'till the last penny, signifying an end' (Luke 12:59) according to the 'measurable punishments of few vs many' and NOT 'infinite or endless' (in Luke 12:47 - 48) implying 'limitedness again justly and NOT eternal Hell or everlasting punishment in any way' which Christ Himself Implies as "Right" (Luke 12:57 toward the 'punishment lasting till the last penny only' in analogy of afterlife-Judgments in Luke 12:58 - 59 as the Context of Consecutive Verses prove Irrefutably).
5) My understanding
Based on the Verses and explanations above by early church authorities, I understand the quoted Verses as follows [with my emphasis - added for edification]:
I repeat the Verses above with [my emphasis for clarity - in brackets]:
"and He gave Him authority to EXECUTE JUDGMENT, because He is the Son of Man. “Do NOT MARVEL at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs [those who are NOT part of the First Resurrection, Revelation 20:5] will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the GOOD DEEDS [who believe after seeing Him, John 6:40 or hearing the Gospel in the afterlife, John 3:14 - 15 with 1 Peter 4:6] to a Resurrection of LIFE [toward Sheepfold2 as Sheepfold1 has Resurrected 1000 years earlier, Revelation 20:4 - 6], those who committed the EVIL DEEDS [against the Gospel, Romans 2:16] to a Resurrection of JUDGMENT [toward the Wicked, Romans 2:5 - 11]." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:27 - 29, NASB)
"who [speak EVIL] will give account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and THE DEAD. For to this end [Purpose] the GOSPEL was proclaimed [Preached] even to THE DEAD [in the Afterlife Regions, e.g. Hades], so that they might be JUDGED indeed according to men in the FLESH [body + soul destroyed in Gehenna as per Matthew 10:28 OR their soul destroyed there now with their spirit having the potential of being saved from the prisons of Hades as per 1 Peter 3:18 - 20], but they might LIVE in the SPIRIT according to God [either 'after enduring the Judgment for their unbelief & sins for Sheepfold2 in Principle of Hebrews 9:27 as it is possible now as per the case in 1 Peter 3:18 - 20 as Christ has Come' or for the 'wicked only post Lake of Fire Judgment as the Context of 1 Peter 4:5 warrants' meaning that apostle Peter is implying that even in the 'worst case scenario of Last Gehenna Judgment, their spirit will live after the 'body + soul is destroyed' in Judgment in the future Resurrected flesh or 'if the soul dies and is destroyed in the current Hades Judgment']." - apostle Peter (1 Peter 4:5 - 6, BLB)
"I have decided to deliver such a one to SATAN [now, for afterlife Judgment in Hades, Luke 16:19 - 31] for the DESTRUCTION of HIS FLESH [the person gets punished bodily till he dies on earth while his soul gets destroyed or dies at Hades eventually], so that HIS SPIRIT may be SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus [his spirit is saved on that particular Day of either His Advent on a White Horse or His Advent on His Great White Throne or the a Day after the Lake of Fire 'age-during chastisement - Matthew 25:46' - I can't be sure of 'which Day' - where this fallen believer may have to wait in whatever state or regions as per the 'formerly disobedient (human) spirits in prison' in the past too from the time of Noah who waited for Christ's First Advent in 1 Peter 3:18 - 20']." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 5:5, NASB)
6) Age-During Punishment vs Age-During Rewards
[The Popular error and fallacy is to translate this Greek Word Aion or Eon as 'eternal' and claim that 'these early church leaders taught eternal Hell']
Question
So, did these early church leaders mean 'age-during' or 'eternal' where each employs the same Greek term 'aion or eon'?
Explanation
Example of Early Church Leaders Quotes:
"He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal [age-during] sensibility, into everlasting [age-during] fire with the wicked devils." - Justin Martyr (First Apology 52)
Please note that the word 'Immortality' and 'age-during' which is translated as 'eternal' in such quotes exist in the above within the 'same sentence' (Yes, 'Immortality or Incorruptibility' is a different Greek word as found in 1 Corinthians 15 or in the 'same sentence' with 'age-during life' proving that these two are DIFFERENT WORDS which exists in the Bible Verse in Romans 2:7 itself - in case you didn't 'realize it').
Meaning?
eternal [age-during] sensibility into everlasting [age-during] fire = Resurrected for Judgment (John 5:28 - 29) to endure to the age for their body + soul where this 'sensibility' or 'consciousness' lasts only till when the 'body (Romans 6:23) + soul (Ezekiel 18:4)' which sinned 'dies' (yes, each component as the Verses imply) or 'ceases to exist' or 'destroyed' (Matthew 10:28) proving by usage here itself that 'age-during is NOT eternal'.
As explained earlier, Justin and Irenaeous own quotes itself explains them to refer to the annihilation of the 'body + soul' which proves that they never understood the meaning of 'Aion or Eon' to mean 'eternal' but 'age-during only' as per their own words below:
(i) Justin on the Annihilation of Body + Soul agreeing to Matthew 10:28
"But I do not say, indeed, that all souls die; for that were truly a piece of good fortune to the evil. What then? The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished." - Justin Martyr (Fifth Chapter on the Dialogue)
Comment:
Justin clearly believed that at death the soul goes to an intermediate place to await resurrection and judgment. Once again, we defer our discussion of this point until later. For now it will suffice to say that Justin also, just as clearly, believed in the annihilation of the wicked. He mentions the fact that only some worthy souls “never die”. Others, he says, exist only “so long as God wills them to exist and undergo punishment.” To put this the other way around, Justin must mean that after a time of punishment, when God no longer wills the wicked to live, they will simply cease to exist. Justin does elsewhere suggest that the period of conscious punishment of the wicked is quite long, being “not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years” , but longer. The wicked do however, eventually die.
Source:
https://www.afterlife.co.nz/articles/justin-martyr-immortality-soul/
(ii) Irenaeous on the Annihilation of Body + Soul agreeing to Matthew 10:28
"It is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved … [who] shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it … deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever … shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.” (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, Against Heresies)
We reject the quotes which are NOT written in Greek because it disagrees to the actual word found in New Testament Scripture (our Immovable Base).
Comment:
Taken at face value, Irenaeus seems to be saying that although God would that the saved live forever, everlasting life will be withheld from the unsaved. Conditionalists today could hardly put it more clearly, that whereas “continuance … [and] length of days for ever and ever” will be gifted to the redeemed of God, those who reject him will not receive “continuance … [and] length of days for ever and ever.” The only alternative is that they will die, never to live again. Consequently, as the New Catholic Encyclopea reads, “From time to time there has recurred the idea of conditional immortality … Irenaeus said that the soul is not immortal by nature, but it can become immortal if it lives according to God’s law.”
Source:
http://rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/03/deprived-of-continuance-irenaeus-the-conditionalist/
Who is right then?
Firstly, we reject the quotes which are NOT written in Greek because it disagrees to the actual word found in New Testament Scripture (our Immovable Base).
How do I know that it's age-during and NOT eternal as per the 'Professor of Koine Greek's claim'?
Let's call the current age as AGE1 which has an end (Matthew 13:49). So, does the next age have an end too or is it eternal?
Simple, I will use the Bible ONLY to refute this. Please note that the 'same root Greek Word Aion or Eon' exists in both Matthew 25:46 (as a 'singular age') and Ephesians 2:7 (as a 'plural - ages'). Can you see it?
This means that the 'next age to come' (AGE2) ---> where the righteous gain rewards of inheritance (Luke 18:30) while the wicked gain their part in the Lake of Fire (Matthew 25:46) ----> is NOT eternal simply because ---> there are "ages to come" (Ephesians 2:7, call it AGE2, AGE3, etc.).
So for AGE3 to exist (implied by the Plural in Ephesians 2:7), the next age or AGE2 must END. Since Matthew 25:46 refers to the punishment in AGE2, this punishment or life is NOT eternal either. The life spoken of in AGE2 toward the righteous transcends further to greater Glory and sometimes unrevealed things (in Principle of 1 Corinthians 2:9 & John 17:3 in Context of John 17:2 toward ALL FLESH too - Shocked? There's more).
Ever wondered what's your best professor's argument against the claim above?
The cannot refute it and so they claim that the 'ages to come' is just a 'figure of speech denoting the richness'. I mean, 'seriously, a professor of linguistics?' Can't you see that Ephesians 2:7 is a FACTUAL Statement and NOT a linguistic fantasy you claim it to be?
Do you dare claim that the phrase 'ages to come' in Ephesians 2:7 is just a 'linguistic fantasy' which does 'not prove the existence of at least two other ages to come' as per the LITERAL meaning of this FACTUAL Verse?
Are you sure that in the presence of our Blessed Saviour, Lord Jesus Christ ---> apostle Paul is going to say, 'well done, professor; you understood my figure of speech to mean that there are NO ages to come'? Let's be 'wise'.
"who [Sheepfold1] may not receive back manifold more in this time [Times of the Kingdom during His 1000 years Millennial Reign on the Last Day of this Current AGE1 itself - Revelation 20:4 - 6] , and in the coming age [AGE2], life age-during [in AGE2]." - Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 18:30, YLT)
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during [in AGE2], but the righteous to life age-during [in AGE2]." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 25:46, YLT)
"so that in the AGES to COME [Future Ages, Plural in Koine Greek implying at least TWO future ages, AGE2, AGE3], He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." - apostle Paul (Ephesians 2:7, NASB)
Surprisingly, St. Irenaeous seems to teach implying 'age by age reward too' (from this AGE1 to AGE2, next) agreeing to this exegesis Perfectly, to quote:
" ... at the Resurrection of the Just [First resurrection, Revelation 20:4 - 6].” And again He says, “Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world [age, AGE1] an hundred-fold, and in that [age] to come [AGE2] he shall inherit eternal [age-during] life [in AGE2 as well].” For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day [Last Day of this AGE1, called the 'Day of the Age' - 2 Peter 3:18 using YLT Translation] ,..." - St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Chapter 32:2, Against Heresies)
7) Last Day and its Two Prophesied Resurrections
The Last Day is when all Resurrection happens for all men (some to life while others to Judgment in the 'flesh' or 'resurrected body' where the 'soul gets a body' ---> where only for those inheriting the 'resurrection to life' during this specific Last Day Time Period, these obtain the 'spiritual body to live on earth' too chiefly, 1 Corinthians 15:44 of 'differing Glory', as God Wills 1 Corinthians 15:38 - 49).
In John 5:25, Christ mentions two hours relating to the Last Day since these prophesied resurrection (Daniel 12:2 or Revelation 20:4 - 6) only happens on the Last Day --> the "hour now is" and "hour is coming" where
"hour now is" (John 5:25 only) = start hour at the Last Day (First Resurrection only, Revelation 20:4 - 6 toward Sheepfold1- John 10:14 called the 'Resurrection of the Just', Luke 14:14 and NOT the 'resurrection of the Just and unjust' which is next).
"hour is coming" (John 5:28 - 29) = end hour of this same Last Day (the resurrection where both the remaining righteous of Sheepfold2-John 10:16 and the wicked are raised simultaneously, John 5: 28 – 29, Daniel 12:2).
In Acts 24:15, apostle Paul shares the 'SAME Hope' in the Pharisees where they believed in the Daniel 12:2 resurrection where the 'just and the unjust' (i.e. the General Resurrection as Irenaeous calls it) where both the 'remaining righteous and wicked from the tombs' get resurrected simultaneously (agreeing to John 5:28 - 29) which does NOT refer to the First Resurrection (which refers only to His Bride, Revelation 20:4 - 6) as this was only revealed in obvious detail after Christ was Manifested.
This HOPE is for 'the remaining all men' (Acts 24:15) but to be part of the First Resurrection is a 'hope ONLY for the believers of faith, Sheepfold1' (as 1 Thessalonians 4:13 proves Irrefutably as it refers to the First Resurrection implicitly in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17 next in the Context of Consecutive Verses).
Also, St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself (who was a hearer of Polycarp the disciple of John who wrote the Book for Revelation) says this same thing regarding the Two Resurrections with a Gap of about 1000 years as mentioned in Revelation 20: 5 to which your exegesis contradicts all this.
So, Irenaeous (third from John who wrote the Book of Revelation) did not understand the 70AD theory? Isn't that a Joke? I cannot accept such absurdities. Sorry.
Daniel's Prophecy comes in Pieces where it must be harmonized with New Testament Verses as already demonstrated in my posts.
The 70AD Theorists or Preterists completely ignore the phrases 'hour now is' vs 'hour is coming' in regards to the Two resurrections for the righteous itself (implied in John 5:25 for Sheepfold1 vs Sheepfold2 respectively) with the 1000 year gap mentioned in Revelation between these Two Resurrections (the First Resurrection vs the General Resurrection - Revelation 20:5), in which Irenaeous does NOT err. You guys erred, big time.
Here's a one line refutation of Preterism type Universalism which assumes that there is only one resurrection of the dead: 'Explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13 only please in which the rest of the dead have NO Hope?'
How do we explain that Biblically with Verses?
Please explain only using 1 Thessalonians 4 itself if possible regarding which NO Hope is being referred to in the context of the 'resurrection of the dead' since it is pointed to 'the dead' in HOPE of a Particular type of Resurrection (a simple and obvious implication) where 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17 itself points to this HOPE being only fulfilled when 'all believers' are 'numbered'.
Here's a non-contradictory explanation:
Yes, the rest of the dead have NO Hope (you ignore this Verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:13) which points to a particular Resurrection only (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17), the First Resurrection which comprises of 'believers in faith only' (Revelation 20:4 – 6) which refutes the 'just and unjust resurrection simultaneously in Daniel 12:2 or John 5:28 - 29' (the General Resurrection) implying that these are Two Different Resurrections as Irenaeous himself explained being separated by 1000 years (Revelation 20:5).
Yes, what is this HOPE reserved 'only for the believers in faith' (Sheepfold1) as per 1 Thessalonians 4:13?
Hoping for the First Resurrection which can only be fulfilled when 'all believers of faith are numbered' (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17, Hebrews 11:39 - 40, Revelation 20:4 - 6) in which the rest of the dead cannot be part of it (Revelation 20:5).
Here's a word of Wisdom:
To ignore the 'little things' causes us to 'miss the big things'.
I don't agree with you and will stick to Irenaeous and the 'little details' pointed out here with NO contradictions. Thanks for sharing your view though (for comparison).
8) God's Judgment till the Victory of Universal Reconciliation
"A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth Judgment unto Victory." (Matthew 12:20, KJV)
God's Righteous Judgment is to END all evil and to RECONCILE ALL CREATION (Colossians 1:16) back to HIMSELF eventually (Colossians 1:20).
This is what it means to speak of 'Righteous Judgment':
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 7:24, KJV)
The 'Inescapable Love of God' (as Professor Thomas Talbott calls it) is described by Irenaeous himself, to quote:
In the fourth Pfaffian fragment ascribed to St. Irenaeous of Lyons (Stieren I, 889), Irenaeous says that ‘Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil—-and to reconcile all things– from Col. i:20–that there may be an end of all impurity.’
Source and further discussion:
God's Justice is Good & Logical.
Lord Jesus Christ our Best Friend - Our Greatest LOVE
(A dear friend of mine sent me the quote in picture which Reminded me of Christ's Greatest Love for His Friends)
'Any friend of Christ is a friend of mine' - Anonymous
Verses:
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 15:13, NASB)
"A friend loves at all times,...." (Proverbs 17:17, NASB)
Even to the enemy, Judas (Satan in him), Lord Jesus Christ called him 'friend' at the Point of Betrayal itself, Verse below (a weaker friendship word in Greek used here implying a 'lesser Love' toward him):
"And Jesus said to him [Judas, Satan], "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him." (Matthew 26:50, NASB)
Conclusion
Truly God is Love:
"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." - apostle John (1 John 4:8, NASB)
P/S: Written in Red
We are called to Emulate His Leadership in Love by Example too (It's Obvious that Lord Jesus Christ didn't just Preach it but He Himself Proved it in Action by the Shedding of His Blood on His Cross):
"We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." - apostle John (1 John 3:16)
Yes, as they say, 'His Love is Written in Blood' by which He Will Reconcile All Created Things (Definition: Colossians 1:16) back to Himself eventually (Colossians 1:20 - Please note the word 'His Blood' in Colossians 1:20 'Carefully' to 'Realize this Deep Truth' and the Perfect Context of Consecutive Verses which Prove this Irrefutably).
The early church leader, Justin Martyr mentions these two points agreeing with this exegesis:
(i) LOVE toward God - First.
Justin Martyr regarding the LOVE of God (Agape - the Highest LOVE - 1 Corinthians 13, Mark 12:30 - 31).
St. Justin Martyr Quoted by St. Irenaeous of Lyons regarding Christ Summing Up All [Created] things back to Himself in its own Divine Times (Ephesians 1:9 - 10).
To quote:
Considered to be the first to clearly express a recapitulation view of the atonement, although he is anticipated by Justin Martyr,[14] whom Irenaeus quotes in Against Heresies 4.6.2:
In his book against Marcion, Justin does well say: “I would not have believed the Lord Himself, if He had announced any other than He who is our framer, maker, and nourisher. But because the only-begotten Son came to us from the one God, who both made this world and formed us, and contains and administers all things, summing up His own handiwork in Himself, my faith towards Him is steadfast, and my love to the Father immoveable, God bestowing both upon us.” [Emphasis added]
There follows two representative quotes from Irenaeus:
[Christ] was in these last days, according to the time appointed by the Father, united to His own workmanship, inasmuch as He became a man liable to suffering … He commenced afresh the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam—namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God—that we might recover in Christ Jesus.
So the Syriac. The Latin has, “in seipso recapitulavit,” He summed up in Himself.
He has therefore, in His work of recapitulation, summed up all things, both waging war against our enemy, and crushing him who had at the beginning led us away captives in Adam …the enemy would not have been fairly vanquished, unless it had been a man [born] of woman who conquered him. … And therefore does the Lord profess Himself to be the Son of man, comprising in Himself that original man out of whom the woman was fashioned, in order that, as our species went down to death through a vanquished man, so we may ascend to life again through a victorious one; and as through a man death received the palm [of victory] against us, so again by a man we may receive the palm against death.
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory_of_atonement
What’s the meaning of this?
The Famous Theologian William Barclay explains (quoted from the same source):
‘Through man’s disobedience the process of the evolution of the human race went wrong, and the course of its wrongness could neither be halted nor reversed by any human means. But in Jesus Christ the whole course of human evolution was perfectly carried out and realised in obedience to the purpose of God.’ – William Barclay
(ii) LOVE toward Others - Second
Justin Martyr - Regarding Love toward others (Matthew 5:43) including our enemies (Matthew 5:44).
St. Justin Martyr says that we ought to pray for Mercy even to the one 'who kills us'.
"For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us," - Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, CHAPTER XVIII -- CHRISTIANS WOULD OBSERVE THE LAW, IF THEY DID NOT KNOW WHY IT WAS INSTITUTED)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
It is well known in Church History that St. Justin Martyr died a Martyr for for Lord Jesus Christ shedding his blood too for 'what he believed in Christ'.
To Quote:
'Though the precise year of his death is uncertain, it can reasonably be dated by the prefectoral term of Rusticus (who governed from 162 and 168). The martyrdom of Justin preserves the court record of the trial.[12]
The Prefect Rusticus says: Approach and sacrifice, all of you, to the gods. Justin says: No one in his right mind gives up piety for impiety. The Prefect Rusticus says: If you do not obey, you will be tortured without mercy. Justin replies: That is our desire, to be tortured for Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and so to be saved, for that will give us salvation and firm confidence at the more terrible universal tribunal of Our Lord and Saviour. And all the martyrs said: Do as you wish; for we are Christians, and we do not sacrifice to idols. The Prefect Rusticus read the sentence: Those who do not wish to sacrifice to the gods and to obey the emperor will be scourged and beheaded according to the laws. The holy martyrs glorifying God betook themselves to the customary place, where they were beheaded and consummated their martyrdom confessing their Saviour.'
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr
'Some will not be able to understand such Deep Love even Theologically because they never loved anyone this Deep especially beyond their family, race or themselves even'
"You become like the God you worship" - the Late Mr. Gary Amirault (Founder of Tentmaker.org)
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
And He [Lord Jesus Christ] said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
"This is the great and foremost commandment. “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36 - 40, NASB)
Why are all these Important?
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?" - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:46, NASB)
No Fear toward God?
"And you should not be afraid ("phobeisthe") of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear ("phobeisthe") the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28, BLB)
Here's a 'Simple' Proof to Refute any false claim that fear does not mean fear:
There is no Mistranslation of Matthew 10:28
(i) The word "fear" in "fear Him Who is able to Destroy both Body and Soul In Gehenna" (afterlife Judgment Context - Matthew 10:28)
Is the SAME Greek word ("phobeisthe") "fear" in "do not fear" (Are we so arrogant that we can't see?)
(ii) Yes, it's the SAME word "fear" found in this 'same Verse' (Irrefutable Perfect Context) -----> in the phrase "do not fear" ----> referring to human beings who may kill your body on earth and do nothing more (earthy evil context), in Matthew 10:28 again.
So, Lord Jesus Christ is cearly teaching us in Matthew 10:28 to have "fear of God" (in view of His afterlife Gehenna Judgment, afterlife Context) while "NOT fearing" mere men & their evil where at most they could kill the body only and NOT the soul (earthly context in our present temporal life).
Are we so 'twisted' that we cannot even understand these 'simple' distinctions found within this Same Verse in Matthew 10:28 or do we have an 'attitude problem' against the Authority of His Holy Word?
Please don't think that 'ministry' and/or calling Him 'Lord, Lord' (claiming to 'know Him') is sufficient because "many" such as these which teach "Lawlessness" will be 'rejected' from being 'His Bride' (as Matthew 7:20 - 23, Luke 6:46, with 1 John 2:4 implies this as Matthew 10:28 is a 'Command regarding what fear to have vs what fear to NOT have').
Posting a link or quoting 'other Verses' cannot DISPROVE this Truth which is Proven within this SAME Verse itself.
Please don't be so gullible and continue to deceive others at the same time. I have warned you & proved it irrefutably with Bible Verses. Your blood be upon yourselves for your own deceptions. May God have Mercy on whom He Wills.
Blessed be His Holy Name and Steadfast is His Word against 'mere men's weak words'.
Conclusion
Matthew 10:28 is Spoken Directly by Lord Jesus Christ Himself. So, please have some 'respect' and Stop Twisting His Holy Word.
I will reply no further as you are unable to intelligently explain your claim by only using Matthew 10:28 where we may quote other Verses if Matthew 10:28 is insufficient for certain details (which is clearly NOT the case here).
The other Verses regarding reference fear is True and Speak of that of which I do NOT dispute but accept as True as well.
Shalom.
P/S: Gehenna refers to the Lake of Fire
How do I know that?
"And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, "I saw a Great White Throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them."
And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the judgment, mentioning "the dead, great and small." "The sea," he says, "gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover," he says, "the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and Death and hell [Hades] were sent into the LAKE of FIRE, the SECOND DEATH."
Now this is what is called GEHENNA, which the Lord styled eternal [AGE-DURING] fire. "And if any one," it is said, "was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the LAKE of FIRE." - St. Irenaeous of Lyons (c. 140 – c. 202 AD, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35:2)
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
Please also note these phrases 'carefully' in the above:
- a) AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM = after His 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ where the TIMES of the KINGDOM prior refers to this SEVENTH or LAST DAY given only to those worthy of the FIRST RESURRECTION (Revelation 20:4 - 6) as Irenaeous' own Writing describe (please read it up for yourself in link above - I have already quoted them in my previous posts which may be found in my website too).
- b) GENERAL RESURRECTION = the Resurrection referred to in Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29, Acts 24:15, and Judgment thereafter (Revelation 20:11 - 15).
If you say that you don't trust Irenaeous, my reply is similar back to you which is 'I DO NOT trust you NOR your scholars either'. Yes, do NOT expect respect if you don't respect the 'earliest & best authorities in Doctrine' (Irenaeous is third from John who Wrote Revelation - very 'close', and closer to Christ & His apostles than 'all the church leaders which you believe').
Do you really think that God is going to say that 'Irenaeous is wrong and your scholars (numerous as they may be) are right?' (Sounds like the Theological Joke of the Day - Thanks for the Laugh).
"The One Enthroned in Heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them." (Psalm 2:4, NASB)
Who are the 'them' referred to in Psalm 2:4?
"them" = [those who speak & act AGAINST His Word or Decree - Psalm 2:7, in CONTEXT of FEARING Him, as the phrase 'Serve the Lord with fear' in Psalm 2:12 itself proves in the Perfect Context of Consecutive Verses, thus it may be Quoted in Principle too]
I do NOT Trust a person who TWISTS Scripture (example: the way these TWIST Matthew 10:28, it's a serious psychological symptom and NOT Love/Agape to BEHAVE as SUCH). Checkmate.
Apostle Paul's Epistles
Can we take apostle Paul's Inspired Writings literally?
Reply
I appreciate your response sir. However, the opposition to apostle Paul's Inspired Writings (where mostly Christ Centered Universalism us Found too) is "not" logical to me. If those epistles of apostle Paul could be changed or not taken literally, apostle Paul doesn't need to give such rules to certain "Gentile churches" only.
So, the safest route would be to take apostle Paul's Writings as it is Written regardless if it agrees to our 'personal opinions, bias, ambitions or other fleshy tendencies'.
And the next line of reliable authorities in doctrine are St. Justin Martyr and St. Iraneous of Lyons who are accepted by both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox churches who speak the same in regards to apostle Paul too as my writings have shown quoting their less known or purposely ignored passages, please see link at the end of this write up.
My theological opponents quoting the other latter saints or theologians who may not be that well received by both these important branches of Earliest Christianity do not either take precedence before them in being authorities of doctrine. So, it is rendered powerless.
To claim otherwise, keeps Christianity subject to follow individual opinions especially with the bias of men to choose which of apostle Paul's Inspired Writings they like literally (e. g. Universal Salvation Verses) while rejecting the "commands of the Lord in his writings" (e. g. 1 Corinthians 14:37) which is an inconsistent way of exegesis causing a source of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).
1) Justin, Iraneous and Polycarp – Eternal Hell, Annihilation or Universal Restoration?
2) Tithing and Sabbaths for Gentile Believers?
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/tithing-and-sabbaths-for-gentile-believers/
So isn't God Forgiving and Merciful? Isn't Law and Mercy difficult to understand?
It's not difficult to understand Law and Mercy.
Law is what God requires us to do. Mercy is what God shows to us when we fail to obey His Law.
God Forgives those whom He chooses to forgives (apostle Paul mentions Mercy likewise, Romans 9:15 - 16) but there are those that God chooses to Judge too (Romans 11:7 - 10).
This is Mature Understanding as the example of Israel itself demonstrates in analogy toward the Gentiles too likewise in regards to "Judgment" (Romans 11:11 - 25) & but apostle Paul assures that regardless of the Judgment such as "forever" [more accurately, the Greek-Always or Hebrew-Continually in Psalm 69:23 the source Verse must mean 'age-during' at most as per Matthew 12:32 or Matthew 25:46] (referring to Romans 11:10, NASB) ---> such a 'serious punishment' which even some of the Israelite have to endure first, eventually the 'Mystery/Secret' is that 'ALL Israel will be SAVED too eventually' (Romans 11:25 - 26) from their 'sins' (and not referring to a 'economic/political or earthly salvation only' which is NOT the Topic in Romans 11 at all even (Romans 11:27).
Apostle Paul then echoes this Truth beyond the Israel example in Stating that the Final Word of Judgment is Mercy only toward the Gentiles too likewise and so, 'all the disobedient' (NASB) or those in 'Unbelief' too eventually will also obtain this same MERCY eventually which is Prophesied/Promised to ALL (Romans 11:32) ----> agreeing with apostle James who wrote that Mercy will Triumph over Judgment (ending it eventually rejoicingly) but after the 'Judgment without Mercy which has to be endured first for some before this happens' (James 2:13).
Conclusion
Lord Jesus Christ is speaking of the 'fear toward God' only toward 'those who disobey His Will' and NOT toward those who 'obey Him (John 14:15) and abide in His Love (John 15:9 - 11)' who are being Perfected in His Agape which refers only toward 'believers in faith' (1 John 4:18) and NOT 'all men generally' (who may 'fear Him' for the Gehenna Punishment if they don't repent, Matthew 10:28).
I prefer to speak the "same" thing as apostle Paul commanded (in 1 Corinthians 1:10) and even if your alternate exegesis become acceptable by our Merciful Lord, following apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 11:1) and preaching the SAME things as him does NOT put me in any danger & I will this stick to this same most ancient way of Exegesis.
For example no one ever went to Hell by preaching New Testament Scriptures such as 1 Timothy 2:12 or 1 Corinthians 14:34 to "Gentile" believers ("Context"), right? Neither will I, then.
Salvation is a Free Gift of God Alone (Titus 3:5) by His Mercy only in Love (Romans 9:16) but our obedience toward His Commands (e.g. as Gentile Believer Context – 1 Corinthians 14:37 with 1 Corinthians 11:1 and 1 Corinthians 1:10) determines our ‘reward level’ (least or greatest) in His Kingdom of the Heavens eventually (Matthew 5:19) as a ‘child is the perfect example of perfect submission in obedience being humble (Matthew 18:3 – 4)’ while ‘rebellion or disobedience to His Holy Word is likened to witchcraft – 1 Samuel 15:23’ and ‘obedience is better than any sacrifice which we may offer whilst living in a state of disobedience’ (1 Samuel 15:22) which if not checked, leads to ‘Lawlessness’ by reason of which we may be rejected from being His Bride or part of the First Resurrection (Matthew 7:20 – 23, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 17, Revelation 20:4 – 6).
Peace to you
Heart is Absent & the Art of Reason
"For as he thinks within himself, so he is. He says to you, "Eat and drink!" But his heart is not with you." (Proverbs 23:7, NASB)
Example of a quote from a philosopher agreeing to the Verse above:
“I think therefore I am” (“Cogito, ergo sum”) – René Descartes
Conclusion
"but in every nation the man who fears Him (God) and does what is right is welcome to Him." - apostle Peter (Acts 10:35, NASB)
1) Authority in Doctrine - St. Justin Martyr hints regarding this HOPE
Example: St. Justin Martyr himself mentions this regarding say Socrates (an example):
"... Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates ..." - Justin Martyr (First Apology)
The popular error is to claim that Justin only referred to such a hope toward those before Christ which is untrue as he himself continues just after quoting the passage above (Context: Within this same Dialogue or Discussion):
"... an intelligent man will be able to comprehend from what has been already so largely said. And we, since the proof of this subject is less needful now, will pass for the present to the proof of those things which are urgent." Justin Martyr (First Apology)
Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
I wonder what wisdom we might have missed as Justin Martyr didn't go 'all out to explain this topic of hope'.
This may thus be seen from the 'higher' writings such as Shepherd of Hermas that this "Gospel being Preached to Sheepfold2" (as 1 Peter 4:6 reveals) is not just a one time occurence as the First Preaching was Done by Christ Himself (1 Peter 3:18 - 20) while the latter ones by the 'forty stones' (or the 40 belonging among the apostles + teachers who have died), to quote:
2) Second only to New Testament Writing as Scripture - Shepherd of Hermas Writing
Shepherd of Hermas quotes afterlife preaching of the Gospel to the dead in Hell and repentance there too (toward whomever God grants Mercy)
To quote:
“One more example will illustrate the righteous spirits’ taking the gospel to the wicked spirits and will also provide a transition to the topic of vicarious work for the dead. The Shepherd of Hermas (first century) was, according to the fourth-century Church historian Eusebius, considered by some valuable for instruction in the Church and was quoted by some of the most ancient writers.
Hermas saw in a vision that the Apostles took the gospel into the spirit world so that the dead might receive the seal of baptism:
These apostles and teachers, who preached the name of the Son of God, having fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to those who had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave to them the seal of the preaching [baptism]. They went down therefore with them into the water and came up again, but the latter went down alive and came up alive, while the former who had fallen asleep before, went down dead but came up alive. (Sim. 9.16.5)
Clement of Alexandria also cited this passage, commenting “that it was necessary for the apostles to be imitators of their Master on the other side as well as here, that they might convert the gentile dead as he did the Hebrew.”
Source: https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/sperry-symposium-classics/visions-christ-spirit-world-and-dead-redeemed
3) Empirical Evidence - Spiritual Visions
Do we have any reliable witness or an Empirical Evidence of this?
A more recent testimony to this rarely known Mystery of the Gospel by Sadhu Sundar Singh, to quote:
Afterlife evangelism is also witnessed Sadhu Sundar Singh in his visions of heaven and hell agreeing to all this (e. g. ‘hindu saints’ accepting the Lord as their Saviour in the afterlife).
Proof of his visions from his ‘first and original’ biographies, please consider (images in links below, examples):
Please note that Emmanuel Swedenborg's Hell & Heaven Visions also Testify to this Rarely known Biblical Truth. But isn't Swedenborhg a heretic who taught strange things?
Swedenborg also taught eternal hell amongst other errors but in some aspects 'he interpreted his visions rightly' as explained in link below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/swedenborg-vs-sadhu-sundar-singh-visions-of-hell-and-heaven/
4) AFTERLIFE HOPE for Christians who have back-slidden from the Shepherd of Hermas Book
Christians who backslide from the Truth – the Rejected Stones
Bible Verses:
“So then, you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ – Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:20 – 23, NASB)
“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES” (Hebrews 10:26 – 27, NASB)
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4 – 6, NASB)
26[103]:6 “And this I say not in reference to these days, that a man after denying should receive repentance; for it is impossible for him to be saved who shall now deny his Lord; but for those who denied Him long ago repentance seemeth to be possible. If a man therefore will repent, let him do so speedily before the tower is completed; but if not, he shall be destroyed by the women and put to death.” (Shepherd of Hermas)
What is meant by “no repentance is possible after death” for ‘such Christians’ described in Verses above?
To quote from the Shepherd of Hermas (‘not’ my opinion – please take note):
7[15]:3 But the others, which are near the waters and yet cannot roll into the water, wouldest thou know who are they? These are they that heard the word, and would be baptized unto the name of the Lord. Then, when they call to their remembrance the purity of the truth, they change their minds, and go back again after their evil desires.”
7[15]:4 So she finished the explanation of the tower.
7[15]:5 Still importunate, I asked her further, whether for all these stones that were rejected and would not fit into the building of the tower that was repentance, and they had a place in this tower. “They can repent,” she said, “but they cannot be fitted into this tower.
7[15]:6 Yet they shall be fitted into another place much more humble, but not until they have undergone torments, and have fulfilled the days of their sins. And they shall be changed for this reason, because they participated in the Righteous Word; and then shall it befall them to be relieved from their torments, if the evil deeds, that they have done, come into their heart; but if these come not into their heart, they are not saved by reason of the hardness of their hearts.”
The Shepherd of Hermas clearly reveals that “no repentance is possible” links to them NOT being part of the ‘tower of repentance’ which describes the HIGHER INHERITANCE LOT which is ‘only for believers in faith who obey His Commands’ (1 John 2:4, John 14:15).
The Shepherd of Hermas also describes that ‘these fallen believers of faith’ —> “Yet they shall be fitted into another place much more humble, but not until they have undergone torments, and have fulfilled the days of their sins.”
The Duration of their afterlife Judgment or Punishment is ’till the last penny only and NOT forever’, comparison phrases:
“And they shall be changed for this reason, because they participated in the Righteous Word; and then shall it befall them to be relieved from their torments, if the evil deeds, that they have done, come into their heart; but if these come not into their heart, they are not saved by reason of the hardness of their hearts.” [7[15]:6, Shepherd of Hermas] = “the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.” (Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 12:46, 57 – 59, NASB)
Can you see how Merciful and Just our God Really is?
Repentance now is Chiefly Around INHERITING HIS GLORIOUS KINGDOM beyond entering it only eventually (Matthew 5:19) —> to find ‘your place according to your works’ (reward vs punishment accordingly, Revelation 22:12, 2 Corinthians 5:10):
9[17]:5 Look ye to the judgment that cometh. Ye then that have more than enough, seek out them that are hungry, while the tower is still unfinished; for after the tower is finished, ye will desire to do good, and will find no place for it.
3[24]:2 “Listen,” said she; “the black is this world in which ye dwell;
3[24]:3 and the fire and blood color showeth that this world must perish by blood and fire;
3[24]:4 and the golden part are ye that has escaped from this world. For as the gold is tested by the fire and is made useful, so ye also [that dwell in it] are being tested in yourselves. Ye then that abide and pass through the fire will be purified by it. For as the old loses its dross. so Ye also shall cast away all sorrow and tribulation, and shall be purified, and shall be useful for the building of the tower.
3[24]:5 But the white portion is the coming age, in which the elect of God shall dwell; because the elect of God shall be without spot and pure unto life eternal.
3[24]:6 Wherefore cease not thou to speak in the ears of the saints. Ye have now the symbolism also of the tribulation which is coming in power. But if ye be willing, it shall be nought. Remember ye the things that are written beforehand.”
Non Christians before the Time of Christ – is there Hope for an afterlife repentance for them?
3[31]:4 To those then that were called before these days the Lord has appointed repentance. For the Lord, being a discerner of hearts and foreknowing all things, perceived the weakness of men and the manifold wiles of the devil, how that he will be doing some mischief to the servants of God, and will deal wickedly with them.
3[31]:5 The Lord then, being very compassionate, had pity on His handiwork, and appointed this (opportunity of) repentance, and to me was given the authority over this repentance.
5) Who are the Sheepfold2?
Example, to quote (regarding afterlife Judgment and Repentance – Mystery of the Gospel being Preached to the Dead, 1 Peter 3:18 – 19, 1 Peter 4:5 – 6):
15[92]:2 “It was necessary for them,” saith he, “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life.
15[92]:3 So these likewise that had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. For before a man,” saith he, “has borne the name of [the Son of] God, he is dead; but when he has received the seal, he layeth aside his deadness, and resumeth life.
15[92]:4 The seal then is the water: so they go down into the water dead, and they come up alive. “thus to them also this seal was preached, and they availed themselves of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.”
15[92]:5 “Wherefore, Sir,” say I, “did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?” “Because,” saith he, “these, the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching.
15[92]:6 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive.
15[92]:7 So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. For this cause also they came up with them, and were fitted with them into the building of the tower and were builded with them, without being shaped; for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal. Thou hast then the interpretation of these things also.” “I have, Sir,” say I.
Source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html
Comment:
The phrase “for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. Only they had not this seal” together with the phrase “came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God” with the phrase “others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive” ——> with the phrase “to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life” —> seem to point 🤔 to “the Sheepfold2” (John 10:16) which refers to the “righteous in good works (e. g. John 5:28 – 29, Daniel 12:2) who died without believing in Christ” but believed in Him ‘after seeing Him, John 6:40 (in the afterlife too, implied in John 3:14 – 15)’.
- a) Sheep and Goats – FAQ
6) How Reliable is the Shepherd of Hermas Book?
To quote:
“The Shepherd was very popular amongst Christians in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.”
How about the Eastern Orthodox Church?
“It is part of the Codex Sinaiticus, and it is listed between the Acts of the Apostles and the Acts of Paul in the stichometrical list of the Codex Claromontanus.”
How about the ‘early Roman Catholic Church’?
“Tertullian implies that Pope Callixtus I had quoted it as an authority (though evidently not as one of the books of the Bible), for he replies: “I would admit your argument, if the writing of The Shepherd had deserved to be included in the Divine Instrument, and if it were not judged by every council of the Churches, even of your own Churches, among the apocryphal and false.”
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shepherd_of_Hermas
The ONLY reason the Shepherd of Hermas was not popular among some early Christians is because they were “uncomfortable” (with the “Visions” – because ‘they lacked faith that God can grant Visions’), to quote from that same Wikipedia Source again:
“Though Clement of Alexandria constantly quotes with reverence a work that seems to him to be very useful, and inspired; yet he repeatedly apologizes, when he has occasion to quote it, on the ground that “many people despise it”. Two controversies divided the mid-century Roman Christian communities. One was Montanism, the ecstatic inspired outpourings of continuing pentecostal revelations, such as the visions recorded in the Shepherd may have appeared to encourage.”
Hasn’t God Promised such “Visions” (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17) in the “last Days”?
P/S: Other Wise Quotes
“I don’t know why we are here, but I’m pretty sure it is not in order to enjoy ourselves” – Ludwig Wittgenstein
“A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion” – Sir Francis Bacon
“The brave man is he who overcomes not only his enemies but his pleasures” – Democritus
“The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays” – Søren Kierkegaard
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth” – John Locke
“The greatest happiness of the greatest number is the foundation of morals and legislation” – Jeremy Bentham
“Morality is not the doctrine of how we may make ourselves happy, but of how we may make ourselves worthy of happiness” – Immanuel Kant
“Whatever is reasonable is true, and whatever is true is reasonable” – G. W. F. Hegel
“The greater the difficulty, the more glory in surmounting it” – Epicurus
“Even while they teach, men learn” – Seneca the Younger
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance” – Socrates
End of the Age - Hippolytus - Comparison: Christ vs Antichrist - Gospel Preached to the Souls of the Dead Men - Resurrections
Question or Accusation
You are a false teacher who is preaching his 'own theory'.
Reply
I am preaching First Christianity as it was taught by the 'kings of Theology' (e.g. Justin Martyr, Irenaeous, Hippolytus, Clement of ALexandria ...). Let's begin, this time with the focus on 'Hippolytus of Rome'.
"Now, as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of His royalty and glory, in the same way have the Scriptures also aforetime spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence.
For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king.
The Saviour was manifested as a lamb; so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Saviour came into the World in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles.
The Saviour gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him, and he will give one like manner. The Saviour appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man.
The Saviour raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 6)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus-christ.html
P/S: More Wisdom of Doctrine as it is recorded from the writings of Hippolytus of Rome
All Quotes are from the link above unless specified otherwise.
Please note carefully the phrase in the beginning of the quote above which Proves the Trinity ---> "our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God".
1) Who was 'Hippolytus of Rome'?
He was an early saint and martyr and a presbyter of the church at Rome under Pope Zephyrinus.
"Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD) was one of the most important third-century theologians in the Diocese of Rome ... a disciple of Irenaeus, who was said to be a disciple of Polycarp, ... he was reconciled to the Church before he died as a martyr." (Hippolytus of Rome, Wikipedia)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_of_Rome
2) What was his problem with the early church leaders at Rome?
Hippolytus was 'stricter' than the 'other Romans church leaders' (including the 'ruling Pope during his lifetime') in regards to 'doctrine', to quote (from the same Wikipedia Source above):
"He opposed the Roman Popes who softened the penitential system to accommodate the large number of new pagan converts. However, he was reconciled to the Church before he died as a martyr" (Hippolytus of Rome, Wikipedia)
3) What are some key traits of the antichrist?
"... But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Saviour, let him attend carefully to the matter. "Dan," he says, "is a lion's whelp;" and in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring. For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan...
That it is in reality out of the tribe of Dan, then, that that tyrant and king, that dread judge, that son of the devil, is destined to spring and arise, the prophet testifies when he says, "Dan shall judge his people, as (he is) also one tribe in Israel." But some one may say that this refers to Samson, who sprang from the tribe of Dan, and judged the people twenty years. Well, the prophecy had its partial fulfilment in Samson, but its complete fulfilment is reserved for Antichrist. For Jeremiah also speaks to this effect: "From Dan we are to hear the sound of the swiftness of his horses:...
These words then being thus presented, let us observe somewhat in detail what Daniel says in his visions. For in distinguishing the kingdoms that are to rise after these things, he showed also the coming of Antichrist in the last times, and the consummation of the whole world..." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 14, Point 15, Point 19 respectively)
4) Preterism is false according to Hippolytus too.
Hippolytus clearly reveals that the 1 week from the Infamous Daniel Prophecy refers to the antichrist's reign, to quote:
"Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, "And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease." By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 43)
It's obvious from the above that the '[True] Gospel Preached to ALL NATIONS before the end comes' (Verse below) as it was Prophesied by our Blessed Saviour Himself is NOT referring to the 'Catholic Church NOR the Protestant Church's error filled theology or evangelism efforsts' but those that will be Preached by His TWO WITNESSES (Enoch and Elias or Elijah) during the [first] half of the antichrist's reign (after which the beast or antichrist will rise from the abyss and kill them in the 'middle of the week' establishing the antichrist's strong rule for the remaining second half or 3 and a half days/years/times before Christ's Glorious Return on His White Horse to Destroy the antichrist - as explained in our previous write-ups too agreeing Perfectly to this EARLIEST CORRECT EXEGESIS regarding this Topic).
"This Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [inhabited] world [Greek: 'oikoumenē' and NOT 'Cosmos'] as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:14, NASB)
5) Hippolytus taught that the Gospel is Preached to the Souls of the Dead
(and 'NOT when they were alive on earth' and NEITHER when they were 'spiritually dead' and certainly 'NOT to the fallen angels as Augustine of Hippo erred' - in understanding Christ's First Preaching aspects in regards to this as recorded in 1 Peter 3:18 - 20)
Hippolytus Taught that Lord Jesus Christ's First Preaching of the Gospel to the Dead (1 Peter 3:18 - 20) refers to the "souls of the dead" (in the 'afterlife abodes' or 'Shadow of Death' regions as St. Irenaeous calls it in his writings) as the phrase 'under the earth' in the quote below includes as well ---> with the focus being the 'souls of the saints':
"... all power given by the Father to the Son, who is ordained Lord of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and Judge of all ... before all (ages) ... and of things under the earth, because He was also reckoned among the dead, preaching the Gospel to the souls of the saints, (and) by death overcoming death" - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 26)
Yep, at Hades (Sheol) or 'Hell' itself where the 'Rich Man was' where Hippolytus focuses on the 'abodes of the saints in Hades' such as 'Abraham's Bosom' (where Abraham & Lazarus was, implied intrinsically, from Luke 16:19 - 31):
"... He also first preached to those in Hades, becoming a forerunner there when he was put to death by Herod, that there too he might intimate that the Saviour would descend to ransom the souls of the saints from the hand of death." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 45)
Hippolytus is NOT restricting the 'Preaching of the Gospel' to the 'souls of the saints' but is 'highlighting that since the saints have the precedence & come to being ransomed by Christ without enduring any afterlife Judgments in contrast to the souls of the wicked'.
Here's an edifying Comment regarding this:
Preaching of the Gospel - Unstoppable
Gospel is Preached even to the Dead (1 Peter 4:6) where the 'punishment may be endured for their sins first' before they can live in the spirit state to God thereafter', Verse:
"for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit." - apostle Peter (1 Peter 4:6, YLT)
Lord Jesus Christ Started this First Preaching of the Gospel toward the Dead to have these affects as it is Recorded in 1 Peter 3:18 - 20.
'Before Him (Lord Jesus Christ), nothing was possible but since He has been Manifested in the Flesh, truly All Things are Possible to Him'.
A detailed discussion regarding this Topic only with 'Earliest Church History' may be found in link below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-of-the-gospel-being-preached-to-the-dead/
6) Israel (the Widow) will be helped and deceived by the antichrist
"He then, having gathered to himself the unbelieving everywhere throughout the world, comes at their call to persecute the saints, their enemies and antagonists, as the apostle and evangelist says: "There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: and there was a widow in that city, who came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her."
By the unrighteous judge, who fears not God, neither regards man, he means without doubt Antichrist, as he is a son of the devil and a vessel of Satan. For when he has the power, he will begin to exalt himself against God, neither in truth fearing God, nor regarding the Son of God, who is the Judge of all. And in saying that there was a widow in the city, he refers to Jerusalem itself, which is a widow indeed, forsaken of her perfect, heavenly spouse, God. She calls Him her adversary, and not her Saviour; for she does not understand that which was said by the prophet Jeremiah: "Because they obeyed not the truth, a spirit of error shall speak then to this people and to Jerusalem." ..." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 56, Point 57)
7) The Woman in Revelation (not the 'widow') is the Church
"By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued wth the Father's word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the "moon under her feet" he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, "upon her head a crown of twelve stars," refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, "she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered," mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. "And she brought forth," he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;" by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, "her child was caught up unto God and to His throne," signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." "And the dragon," he says, "saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: "And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings."
The Lord also says, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains, and let him which is on the housetop not come down to take his clothes; neither let him which is in the field return back to take anything out of his house. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved." And Daniel says, "And they shall place the abomination of desolation a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand two hundred and ninety-five days."
And the blessed Apostle Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, says: "Now we beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together at it, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letters as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for (that day shall not come) except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth (will let), until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: (even him) whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." And Esaias says, "Let the wicked be cut off, that he behold not the glory of the Lord." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 61, Point 62, Point 63)
8) 1 Week reign of antichrist is split to two parts (first half, middle of the week, second half)
Hippolytus reaffirms that the 1 Week (7 Days/Years/Times) Reign of the antichrist is split to "two halves" where as described in prior write-ups or the Hippolytus' writing (which we are not quoting in full - it may be literally read in provided link):
First half (3 and a half days/years/times) = The Two Witness Preach the Gospel to All Nations and the antichrist's spirit makes a covenant of 1 week to Israel.
Middle of the Week = The Beast or Antichrist Kills the Two Witness and Sets up the Abomination of Desolation helping Israel to Fulfill their 'Temple building'.
Second half (3 and a half days/years/times) = The antichrist's reign comes in full strength where whoever not receiving the mark of the beast will not be able to 'buy or sell' & kills all those who oppose him which ends only with Lord Jesus Christ's Glorious Return on His White Horse.
"These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe on Him." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 64)
9) Hippolytus taught Two Resurrections - the First Resurrection vs the General Resurrection
The First Resurrection = The 'Resurrection of the Just' at the 'start hour - now is' (Prophetically echoed in John 5:25) to inherit His 1000 years Milennial Kingdom in this [Old] Earth itself on the Last or Seventh Day of this Current age, the 'Day of the Age' (only for Christ's Bride, the believer of faith who believe in Him before seeing Him obtain this Immortality, Sheepfold1, Revelation 20:4 - 6, Luke 14:14 living alongside mortals too who remain on earth during these 'times of the kingdom' as Irenaeous calls it).
The Second Resurrection = The resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked (Acts 24:15, Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29) = called the 'General Resurrection' in St. Irenaeous of Lyons writing (more details and quotes proving this distinction was discussed earlier in link below - Hippolytus being the disciple of Irenaeous must have spoken under this understanding too likewise), as the Catholic Encyclopedia explains Hippolytus' writing below likewise too (below)):
Please note that John 5:25 Prophetically mentions two groups of righteous, namely 'Sheepfold1' (John 10:14, the righteous by faith in Christ - highest) vs 'Sheepfold2' (John 10:16, the righteous by 'good works only' - much lower) ---> as evidenced by the phrases 'hour now is' (referring to the 'start hour' on this 7th or Last Day) vs 'hour is coming' (referring to the 'end hour' on this 7th or Last Day).
Yes, only the phrase 'hour is coming' is mentioned in John 5:28 - 29 meaning that this is a 'different time' than the 'hour now is' (found in John 5:25) pointing to 'a different resurrection' than the 'First Resurrection'.
Yes, John 5:25 points to two 'resurrections of the righteous to life' based on 'two different hours within the Last or 7th Day' (since all resurrection happens within the Last Day, John 6:40).
How about Matthew 27: 52 - 53? Isn't this the First Resurrection?
When apostle John wrote Revelation 20:4 - 6, please note that Matthew 27:52 - 53 has 'already occurred'. Apostle John does NOT say that Matthew 27:52 - 53 refers to the 'First Resurrection' and neither should we. It could be a natural body resurrection for those saints who were raised just 'after Christ' (Matthew 27:52 - 53) just like the 'case of Lazarus' or it could be that this refers to 'Old Testament saints' who were raised just after Christ.
I think that the latter possibility is true as the Old Testament saints have a precedence to us in this (hence they are Resurrected in Body first - as per Matthew 27:52 - 52) but they are NOT perfected in regards to 'rewards and inheritance' yet (as Hebrews 11:39 - 40 reveals) but are 'waiting for the full number of the Elect of God, His Church or His Bride to come in' (1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 17) just before His Return on His White Horse for His Marriage as well (Revelation 19:7 - 11).
These 'resurrected Old Testament saints' (Matthew 27:52 - 53) are the ones 'seen on Thrones' during the First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4) who are perfected with the rest of us (Hebrews 11:40) in regards to obtaining the Inheritance of His 1000 years Millennial Reign (Revelation 20:5 - 6).
The 'Resurrection of the Just' (First Resurrection) is NOT the same as the second 'resurrection of the just & wicked' simply because there is a 1000 year gap between the two (Revelation 20:5 & Revelation 20:7).
Also, the 'Resurrection of the Just' (First Resurrection) is NOT the same as the second 'resurrection of the righteous & wicked' ---> simply because in the First Resurrection, ONLY the Righteous by Faith are Raised (Revelation 2-0:4 - 6) and the 'rest of the dead (righteous or wicked, implied) do NOT share in 'this particular hope' at all (1 Thessalonians 4:13) ---> while in contrast, during the Second General Resurrection, both the 'righteous & wicked' are raised 'simultaneously (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29) and thereafter are Judged before the Great White Throne of Judgment (Matthew 25:31 - 46)' based on 'works only' (Revelation 20:11 - 15) and NOT based on 'faith in Christ' (which pertains to the First Resurrection only, 'those worthy' - 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17).
- a) Papias (c. 60–163 AD, Bishop of Hierapolis ) taught this
"... there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth (Fragments of Papias, VI. See also Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, XXXIX, 12).
"In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man." [Testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him...] (Fragments of Papias, IV).
- b) Justin Martyr (c. 100 - 165 AD, Christian Apologist) taught this
"But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: 'For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create'...For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." - Justin Martyr (Dialogue. Chapters 80-81).
Please note these lines 'carefully' in Justin's writing above which speaks of the 'First Resurrection' being DIFFERENT from the 'General Resurrection' where the 'latter is for All Men' before His Great White Throne:
b.i) Justin Reveals the 'First Resurrection' to be only for Sheepfold1
'... right-minded Christians on all points, ... there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem' = First Resurrection (Revelation 20:4 - 6) = 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject' ---> where this Resurrection is ONLY for Shepfold1 or Christians as Justin Remarks, 'that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem'.
And
b.ii) Justin Reveals that the (Second) 'General Resurrection' to be for the 'rest of the dead' (Sheepfold2 and the Wicked)
' that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place' = 'that THEREAFTER [after that 1000 years Milennial Reign of Christ of the First Resurrection for Christians only, Revelation 20:4 - 6 alongside 'mortal sinners' too, Isaiah 65:20, Revelation 20:7] ---> the GENERAL [Resurrection], and, in short, the eternal [age-during] [General] resurrection [John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:31 - 46) and judgment of all men [in front of His Great White Throne, Revelation 20:11 - 15) would likewise take place'.
Can you see it?
- c) Irenaeous taught this
c.i) TIMES of the KINGDOM = Those for the First Resurrection only during the Last or 7th Day of this Current Age for the 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ (Revelation 20:4 - 6, Luke 14:14, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17 Jewish Prophecy/Oracles Verses from the Old Testament too).
“Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.” Then, too, Isaiah has declared the TIME when THESE EVENTS shall OCCUR; he says: “And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth.” Then Daniel also says this very thing: “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting [age-during till the end of this age during the LAST DAY for 1000 years, Daniel 7:27], and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.” And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: “And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days.” – (Iraneous, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 34:2)
c.ii) AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM (Justin mentions similarly, 'THEREAFTER' this 1000 years quoted earlier - implied) = the 'General Resurrection' happens (John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2) and Judgment before His Great White Throne follows (Revelation 20:11 - 15, Matthew 25:31 - 46).
“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the NEW earth. For AFTER the TIMES of the KINGDOM, he says, “I saw a Great White Throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the [OLD] earth fled away, and the [OLD] heavens; and there was no more place for them.” And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the judgment, mentioning “the dead, great and small.” … Lake of Fire, the second death.” Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal [age-during] fire. “And if any one,” it is said, “was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.”… “For there shall be a NEW heaven and a NEW earth; and there shall be NO remembrance of the FORMER, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.” Now this is what has been said by the apostle: “For the fashion of this world passeth away.” To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, “[OLD] Heaven and [OLD] earth shall PASS AWAY.” When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new [426-427] Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image-that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” – (Iraneous, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 35:2)
Please note that in the above that there are ‘two Jerusalems’ spoken of namely that the ‘earthly Jerusalem’ (Image, Shadow on the OLD Earth during the 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ) vs the ‘Jerusalem from above’ (Galatians 4:26, Revelation 21:2, Actual – Substance in Christ) which descends upon the NEW Earth only (Revelation 21:1, consecutive Verse prior) proving the exegesis Principle of Hebrews 10:1 and Colossians 2:17 via Iraneous own writing above.
- d) Eusebius mentions that Papias taught this
"…there will be a period of a thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth..." - Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea (AD 260/265 – 339/340 - The History of the Church, Book III, Chapter XXIX, Verse 12, p. 69)
Eusebius, coming in much later than these 'earlier saints' did NOT understand the details correctly and thus erred in assuming that 'there is no 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ' or that 'there is no two resurrections' (as some scholars remark) which also reflects the 'lack of understanding' in the minds of 'later bishops only' which caused them to 'miss this important point concerning the resurrection of the dead'. This error is reflected in popular denominations today too where 'whatever they find contradictory, they take it as symbolic' which is not our way as we follow the earliest most reliable leaders of the church 'as few as they may be' as discussed here as well.
- e) The Vatican seems to have denounced the Millennium Doctrine 'later only' as recorded by Jerome
"18:1 Papias, a hearer of John, (and) bishop of Hierapolis in Asia, wrote only five books, which he entitled An Exposition of Discourses of the Lord. Wherein, when he asserts in his preface that he is not following promiscuous statements, but has the Apostles as his authorities, he says: --
2 "I used to inquire what had been said by Andrew, or by Peter, or by Philip, or by Thomas or James, or by John or Matthew or any other of the Lord's disciples, and what Aristion and the Elder John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying. For books to read do not profit me so much as the living voice clearly sounding up to the present day in (the persons of) their authors."
3 From which it is clear that in his list of names itself there is one John who is reckoned among the Apostles, and another the Elder John, whom he enumerates after Aristion. We have mentioned this fact on account of the statement made above, which we have recorded on the authority of very many, that the two later epistles of John are not (the work) of the Apostle, but of the Elder. This (Papias) is said to have promulgated the Jewish tradition of a Millennium, and he is followed by Irenaeus, Apollinarius and the others, who say that after the resurrection the Lord will reign in the flesh with the saints. (Jerome. Illustrious Men, Chapter 18. As translated by J. B. Lightfoot & J. R. Harmer and Edited By Daniel R. Jennings)
- f) Even the non-Canonical Epistle of Barnabas taught this (reflecting 'common grounds in theology' in earliest times of Christianity)
"Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a pure heart. And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then I will bestow My mercy upon them. Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it. Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days.
He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years; and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end. And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day." - (Epistle of Barnabas, 15:1-5).
- g) The Ancient Judaeo-Christianity's Sibyline Oracles Prophecy also Teaches this
The link below illustrates the harmony of the Bible Verses and the Sibyline Oracles in relation to this Earliest Exegesis:
10) But didn't Justin, Irenaeous, Hippolytus teach eternal Hell or annihilation?
Or were their words misunderstood to refer to 'age-during Judgment' only as per New Testament Inspired Biblical Koine Greek?
It's discussed in great detail in post below:
Example with the [age-during] correction to the 'English Translation' below to reflect the 'original Greek word which points to pertaining to the age meaning, LITERALLY':
"Moreover, concerning the resurrection and the kingdom of the saints, Daniel says, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall arise, some to everlasting [age-during] life, (and some to shame and everlasting [age-during] contempt)." Esaias says, "The dead men shall arise, and they that are in their tombs shall awake; for the dew from thee is healing to them." The Lord says, "Many in that day shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." And the prophet says, "Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
And John says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power." For the second death is the lake of fire that burneth. And again the Lord says, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun shineth in his glory." And to the saints He will say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
But what saith He to the wicked? "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [age-during] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, which my Father hath prepared." And John says, "Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever maketh and loveth a lie; for your part is in the hell of fire." And in like manner also Esaias: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. And their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be for a spectacle to all flesh." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 65)
Please note carefully how Hippolytus distinguishes between those from the 'General Resurrection' vs those from the 'First Resurrection' whilst discussing the Great White Throne of Judgment in the quote above:
How do I know that Hippolytus referred to the 'General Resurrection' when he quotes Daniel 12:2 above? To quote:
Hippolytus was one of the Church of Rome's greatest early theologians according to The Catholic Encyclopedia. Notice what he wrote in the early third century:
"For concerning the GENERAL RESURRECTION and the kingdom of the saints, Daniel says: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [age-during] life, and some to shame and everlasting [age-during] contempt." And Isaiah says: "The dead shall rise, and those in the tombs shall awake, and those in the earth shall rejoice." And our Lord says: "Many in that [Last] Day shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live" (Hippolytus. On the End of the World, Chapter XXXVI. Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 5. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1886. Online Edition Copyright © 2005 by K. Knight).
Yes, Hippolytus himself referred to the hope which is NOT possible for others but the Christian dead ONLY (in 1 Thessalonians 4:13) to refer to the 'First Resurrection' or the 'Resurrection of the Just only' (tying up 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17 to Revelation 20:4 - 6 & Luke 14:14) agreeing perfectly to our exegesis in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20 as well, as NO Prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, to quote:
" Concerning the RESURRECTION of the RIGHTEOUS, Paul also speaks thus in writing to the Thessalonians: "We would not have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (and) remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice and trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive (and) remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 66)
Yes, in the above:
The 'RESURRECTION of the RIGHTEOUS' (Luke 14:14) = 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17 as Hippolytus himself quotes. Can you see the 'Proper Context'? (Revelation 20:4 - 6 too).
An Important Comment: Is 'ages of Ages' forever?
In his ending of the Book above, Hippolytus adds the word 'endless' in front of the popular phrase 'ages of Ages' (e.g. as found in Revelation 20:10) proving by usage itself that the phrase 'ages of Ages' is NOT 'forever and ever' as popularly erred but rather to the 'ages' (subset) out of a larger total set of 'Ages' (universal set), to quote:
"... He will rejoice with them, glorifying the Father. To Him be the Glory unto the endless ages of the Ages. Amen." - Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 67)
So, Hippolytus adds the word 'endless' in front of the 'popular ages of Ages phrase' to signify that the Glory of Christ extends beyond the 'ages of out of the Endless Larger Set of Ages' - WITHOUT END.
Conclusion
Please note that only the 'latter' (NOT earliest authorities of doctrine opposed this Theology - Precedence settles the matter), to quote from the 'much respected church historian Philip Schaff himself':
"The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgement. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius, while Caius, Origen, Dionysius the Great, Eusebius (as afterwards Jerome and Augustin) opposed it." (Schaff, Philip, History of the Christian Church, Volume 2. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, p. 381)
'I have only One Beautiful Story to tell and it's not about me; It's about Lord Jesus Christ'
There is a Story at the Heart ♥ of the Bible in each and every Prophet of God, regarding the Saviour of the World, Lord Jesus Christ Reconciling All Created Things back to Himself eventually to Restore All Creation again.
"whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age." - apostle Peter (Acts 3:21, YLT)
I repeat again, [with emphasis], please consider:
"whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive [Lord Jesus Christ] till times [Ephesians 1:9 - 10] of a Restitution [Restoration, Colossians 1:20] of all [Created] things [Colossians 1:16], of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age." - apostle Peter (Acts 3:21, YLT)
P/S: Christ the Incomparable Majestic Saviour of the World, The No. 1 where there is NO no. 2.
'I have heard all the stories, I have seen all the signs ... I have seen all the glory and tasted all that's fine ... (But), Nothing Compares to the Greatness of Knowing You, Lord' - Third Day (Lyrics in their song titled 'Nothing Compares')
Peace to you
Aeons of the Aeons - ages of Ages - St. Irenaeous of Lyons on the Eternal Age Heresy
The Koine Greek phrase translated as 'forever and ever' is more literally and accurately 'ages of Ages' or 'aeons of Aeons' (transliterated) as it is found say in Revelation 20:10 as follows:
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:10, YLT)
What does it mean?
The Devil will be tormented to the 'ages' (subset) out of the Larger Total Set of 'Ages' (Universal Set). This is what is 'literally' Written in Holy Scripture and Colossians 1:16 (Definition of 'all created things' including the Devil) hints 'inclusively' that even the Devil has a possibility of 'two way Reconciliation post afterlife Judgment in the Lake of Fire which destroys his evil nature first - as part of the All [Created] Things' (as it is mentioned just 4 Verses later, in Context with this same Topic in Colossians 1:20).
1) Gnosticism
The root word for 'aeon' or 'eon' (transliterated) or 'age' (its translation in English - singular) is the 'same root word' existing in say Matthew 25:46 (hence age-during chastisement & not 'everlasting punishment' is meant in this Verse).
*Whenever 'age' (singular) vs 'ages' (plural) is mentioned in this write up, it refers to the Koine Greek's 'aion or aions' or 'its equivalent compounds' only (unless specified otherwise).
In Early Christianity, church leaders (such as St. Irenaeous of Lyons) fought against the Greek errors of Gnosticism. This is especially evident in Irenaeous infamous book titled 'Against Heresies'.
In Book I, Irenaeous discusses the errors of various gnostic sects of assigning 'names & wrongly thinking that the ages (Aeons) are some kind of beings'. We know that God created the 'Ages' (Aeons - Time periods) for His Purpose as evidenced in Verses below:
"according to a Purpose of the Ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord," - apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:11, YLT)
Understanding the concept of 'Ages' (Aeons) is important to 'our faith' as it is mentioned even in the Infamous Hall of Fame of Faith chapter (Hebrews 11):
"by faith we understand the Ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;" - Anonymous (Hebrews 11:3, YLT)
Several Chapters in the free downloadable e-book titled 'Saviour of the World' (pdf in link below) explains the concept of ages Biblically with Verses.
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/christian-ebook/
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/download/5975/
2) Hippolytus (170–235 AD) - Presbyter of Rome
At the end of his book discussing 'Christ vs the antichrist', Hippolytus of Rome (an early authority of doctrine who wrote in Greek) uses the phrase 'ages of Ages' as follows:
“… He will rejoice with them, glorifying the Father. To Him be the Glory unto the endless ages of the Ages. Amen.” – Hippolytus of Rome (170–235 AD, TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, Point 67)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus-christ.html
It is clear that the word 'endless' (please note this 'carefully') placed in front of the phrase 'ages of Ages' (or aeons of Aeons) in the above itself signifies that the phrase 'ages of Ages' by itself does NOT mean 'forever and ever at all'. Indeed,
ages of Ages = signifies a duration of a limited time to a specific 'ages' out of the Total 'Ages' being spoken of. This time period being referred to here is only the 'ages' (subset) out of the 'Ages' (larger set) which proves that the 'ages' itself is NOT eternal as it is contained within the larger set of 'Ages'.
Yes, 'ages' (time period) < 'Ages' (larger time period) ---> proving that 'ages' into which the punishment of the Devil is to last (Revelation 20:10) is NOT eternal.
Also, Hippolytus' Writing shows that the phrase 'endless ages of Ages' ---> 'exists' and is different ---> and may be translated as 'forever and ever' but such a phrase is NEVER used in the Bible to denote the duration of any afterlife Judgment or Punishment at all.
'endless ages of Ages' = forever and ever (only because of the 'addition' of the word 'endless' in front of it) = refers to a specific series of 'endless ages' which goes on and on.
If I may illustrate this as follows it may be clearer (let's call the ages to come, as per Ephesians 2:7 be AGE2, AGE3, etc. - the current age, Matthew 13:49 being called AGE1):
'ages of Ages' in Revelation 20:10 = 'AGE2, AGE3, ... AGE(n)' (we do not know into how many future ages this punishment will last but the 'plural - future ages' indicates at least to AGE2 & AGE3)
Suppose that the Devil's punishment in Revelation 20:10 is to last till the n-th age, called AGE(n) in the above, where n >= 3.
'endless ages of Ages' in Hippolytus writing above = 'AGE2, AGE3, ... AGE(n), AGE(n+1), AGE(n+2), AGE(n+3), ... AGE(k)...'
as k (tends to) ---> infinity.
For accuracy in exegesis with rigor, we ought to differentiate the meaning of the phrases 'ages of Ages' vs 'endless ages of Ages' as illustrated above. To claim that it's the 'same' would cause us to miss 'fine details' & 'miss the intention of Scripture as well as the wisdom' from these 'earliest authorities of doctrine'.
3) St. Irenaeous of Lyons (160-202 AD) - Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lion, France)
All translations of Irenaeous' Against Heresies are from link below unless specified otherwise:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html
Is it a heresy to use the phrase 'aeons of the Aeons?'
Irenaeous reveals that it is NOT heresy to use the 'same phrase' ---> 'ages of Ages' or 'aeons of the Aeons' but only that we should NOT refer to the 'aeons' as some sort of 'living creature or beings' as the Gnostics did but take it just as a 'Time Period only'.
"... Paul also, they [Gnostic-heretics] affirm, very clearly and frequently names these Aeons, and even goes so far as to preserve their order, when he [apostle Paul] says, "To all the generations of the Aeons of the Aeon." Nay, we ourselves, when at the giving of thanks we pronounce the words, "To Aeons of Aeons", do set forth these Aeons. And, in fine, wherever the words Aeon or Aeons occur, they at once refer them to these beings." (St. Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter 3:1)
I removed the translator's addition of (forever and ever) - yes, which was added by the translator (his bias) and kept the above to Irenaeous' translated words with [my emphasis in brackets]. Please compare with the translation in the provided link should you wish to 'compare' and 'see'.
Please note carefully that Irenaeous affirms that we affirm the existence of these 'Aeons' or 'Ages' (and we do NOT deny it) ---> as his phrase 'we ourselves, ... "To Aeons of Aeons", do set forth these Aeons'.
Thus Irenaeous is conclusively admitting and proving in his own words that we also believe in the existence of 'one age after the other' (i.e. one aeon after the other) except that we do NOT think of the 'Ages or Aeons' as 'living beings of some sort' as the 'Gnostics erred'.
Can you see it?
4) Irenaeous fought the Perversion of the Concept of Ages of Aeons
Example: Irenaeous called Tatian (a favourite theologian to some 'eternal Hell' scholars) a HERETIC - surprised?:
"A certain man named Tatian first introduced the blasphemy. He was a hearer of Justin's, and as long as he continued with him he expressed no such views; but after his martyrdom he separated from the Church, and, excited and puffed up by the thought of being a teacher, as if he were superior to others, he composed his own peculiar type of doctrine. He invented a system of certain INVISIBLE AEONS, like the followers of Valentinus; while, like Marcion and Saturninus, he declared that marriage was nothing else than corruption and fornication. But his denial of Adam's salvation was an opinion due entirely to himself." (St. Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter XXVIII:1)
5) The 'Eternal Age' Heresy
Claiming that an 'aeon or age is eternal' may be a HERESY.
Really?
Yes, please consider 'Irenaeous own words below' where he points to the 'specific HERESY' of calling '(any) aeon or age to be eternal' (example: don't our popular Bible translations call the 'next age, or next aeon' eternal as implied in their translations of Matthew 12:32 with Matthew 25:46?)
" Besides those, however, among these heretics who are Simonians, and of whom we have already spoken, a multitude of Gnostics have sprung up, and have been manifested like mushrooms growing out of the ground. I now proceed to describe the principal opinions held by them. Some of them, then, set forth a certain Aeon who never grows old, and exists in a virgin spirit: him they style Barbelos. They declare that somewhere or other there exists a certain father who cannot be named, and that he was desirous to reveal himself to this Barbelos. Then this Ennoea went forward, stood before his face, and demanded from him Prognosis (prescience). But when Prognosis had, [as was requested, ] come forth, these two asked for Aphtharsia (incorruption), which also came forth, and after that Zoe Aionios (age-during life). Barbelos, glorying in these, and contemplating their greatness, and in conception [thus formed], rejoicing in this greatness, generated light similar to it. ... " (St. Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter XXIX:1)
I repeat the above, please note the following 'heresy, carefully':
"... heretics ... multitude of Gnostics ... Some of them, then, set forth a certain Aeon who never grows old... these two asked for Aphtharsia (incorruption), which also came forth, and after that Zoe Aionios (age-during life) ... " (St. Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter XXIX:1)
Can you see it?
Firstly, please note that 'Zoe Aionios' is a similar phrase to 'age-during life' (popularly translated as 'eternal life' in Matthew 25:46).
Irenaeous is contending that the 'Gnostic heretics' are the one who were popularizing the 'new idea' that there is a 'certain Aeon' or 'certain Age' ----> 'which never grows old' (i.e. is 'eternal'). Shocked?
Notice that the 'Aeon which never grows old' ----> is said to have been equivalent to have attained 'Aphtharsia (incorruption)' which is IMMORTALITY (as this word is different and is found in 1 Corinthians 15) ----> meaning so clearly that there is NO such thing as an 'eternal age' but that 'each age has both a beginning and end' (being time periods, implied).
Yes, the Gnostic heretics are the ones who introduced the concept of an 'eternal age' which 'never grows old' as they say, it has attained 'Aphtharsia (incorruption or immortality)'. The rest is their 'story telling' with 'fabled beings representing these ages or aeons'.
It doesn't end there as these Gnostics tried further to 'corrupt' the Biblical Concept of 'Zoe Aionios' (as it's found in Matthew 25:46) by claiming that 'Zoe Aionios' (this 'aeon or age') also seeked out to be 'eternal' by requesting this 'Aphtharsia (incorruption or immortality)' likewise.
Isn't it crisp clear from this discussion in 'Irenaeous' own words' that 'Zoe Aionios' (in Matthew 25:46) too only means 'age-during life which is NOT endless NOR Immortal' but that the Gnostics invented a 'fable story' to show 'how Zoe Aionios' could itself become eternal?
Yes, by usage and etymology itself it is evident here that 'Zoe Aionios' (Matthew 25:46) only refers to age-during life and that's why the Gnostic error tried to be 'smarter' by inventing a 'fabled story' to show 'how this Zoe Aionios may have attained Immoratlity (Aphtharsia) so that their converts may be 'swayed to this' so called 'hidden truth'.
In light of all this, our 'popular Christianity' which preaches or translates 'Zoe Aionios' to mean 'eternal life' instead of 'age-during life' may be guilty of following the Gnostic error in this concept (minus the 'fable stories'). An Irony indeed.
The Bible Teaches that ONLY God has 'Deathless-ness' (athanasian) being Immortal and that His Power to sustain the rest of things is to the 'age (aeon) only' so that 'NONE of the current things will last eternally' (can you see the real meaning and purpose of His 'age-during Power'?) as these 'former things' will eventually pass away (and NOT last forever, Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:4):
"Who [God] only is having Immortality [Athanasian], dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age [aeon]-during! Amen." - apostle Paul (1 Timothy 6:16, YLT)
Yes, God's Power or Honour is 'highlighted' (NOT limited) to the 'age (aeon)' in Holy Scripture because these 'created things' are to last to 'that particular age (aeon) only' - an incredible accuracy in Inspired Writing pointing to this Truth. In like manner, God of Israel does NOT mean that He is the God for Israel only but is highlighted thus for 'His Specific Purposes toward them' (Romans 3:29).
For example, God's Power is highlighted as 'His age-during Power' (in 1 Timothy 6:16), because it refers to the current 'created things' lasting only 'till the end of this age only' after which the 'fire will consume it' (2 Peter 3:7 - 10) and a New Heavens and a New Earth will be Made thereafter (2 Peter 3:13).
6) Incorruptible Aeon
The heresy of the 'incorruptible aeon' or 'immortal age' is stated in the Gnostic sect's heresy below (please note this phrase carefully):
"The father and son thus both had intercourse with the woman (whom they also call the mother of the living). When, however, she could not bear nor receive into herself the greatness of the lights, they declare that she was filled to repletion, and became ebullient on the left side; and that thus their only son Christ, as belonging to the right side, and ever tending to what was higher, was immediately caught up with his mother to form an INCORRUPTIBLE AEON." (St. Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter XXX:2)
Also, Irenaeous calles the concept of an 'INCORRUPTIBLE AEON' ---> as an 'OPINION' in the below:
"... For he will not now possess holy souls to send them down again into the world, except those only which are of his substance, that is, those into which he has breathed. But the consummation [of all things] will take place, when the whole besprinkling of the spirit of light is gathered together, and is carried off to form an INCORRUPTIBLE AEON. Such are the OPINIONS which prevail among these persons, by whom, like the Lernaean hydra, a many-headed beast has been generated from the school of Valentinus." (St. Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter XXX:14 - 15)
Yes, please note 'carefully' that St. Irenaeous of Lyons does NOT acknowledge 'a different version' of the concept of an INCORRUPTIBLE (or Eternal, Immortal) AEON' in his discussion in his book above (as you may read it in 'full' and 'realize' it too) ----> which is greatly in contrast to the 'concept of Aeons or Ages' as illustrated in Point 3 earlier of which HE ACKNOWLEDGED it to be THEOLOGICALLY CORRECT (and we preach this 'same' Biblical concept only). This is an important and irrefutable point, can you see it?
The phrase 'Incorruptible Aeon' (which is their theological point in this, while the rest being 'some dirty blasphemous story telling of Gnostic sects) itself points to the Greek Word 'Aeon or Age in English' to mean an 'unknown or limited time period only but NOT forever'.
Indeed, because the Greek Word 'Aeon' by itself only means 'age' (a limited unknown time period), the efforts of the Gnostics is clear in that they tried to make up 'strange stories' to 'make a particular Aeon or Age, say 'Zoe Aionios' or others by assigning names or 'beings to them' ---> to make it 'Immortal or Incorruptible' which is a form of Idolatry (conceptually) as it challenges God Alone Who has Pure Immortality or Deathless-ness, 'Athanasian' ---> while the rest of creation is only endowed with 'age (aeon)-during endurance' by His Power ----> as 1 Timothy 6:16 Majestically Declares ----> since He did NOT give any creation Immortality yet (which is chiefly reserved for His Bride post Resurrection only - 1 Corinthians 15 with Revelation 20:4 - 6 & Luke 20:35 - 36 as well).
Can you understand the Incredible Accuracy of Holy Scripture and how our Proper exegesis to Understanding the Greek Word Aeon or Age is Important to Give Glory to God Alone?
7) Did St. Irenaeous of Lyons teach Universal Restoration?
They did not explicitly discuss afterlife Judgment & Restoration thereafter in detail (as they didn't reach to discuss the Doctrine of Apocatastasis - speaking of Hippolytus & say Justin) as their writings which survived did not discuss the Universal Salvation Bible Verses (from which 'only' we may conclude).
He must not have taught differently from Irenaeous being his disciple.
Irenaeous of Lyons reveals that he knows it (though they don't like to speak of it 'easily' in order to obey the Command to 'not cast pearls to swine' - Matthew 7:6), to quote (rarely known):
Schaff admits that the opinions of Irenaeus are doubtful from his (Schaff’s) orthodox standpoint and says: 12 “In the fourth Pfaffian fragment ascribed to him (Stieren I, 889) he says that ‘Christ will come at the end of time to destroy all evil—-and to reconcile all things– from Col. i:20–that there may be an end of all impurity.’
Conclusion
Yes, Irenaeous himself just proved that the LITERAL translation of 'ages of Ages' is CORRECT and that it refers to 'ages or aeons' out of a total (or larger) subset of 'Ages or Aeons' in his own words above proving that 'our Biblical exegesis' is 'right and accurate' as claimed & is NOT a heresy in any way.
Please think 'carefully' before calling me a 'heretic' because by St. Irenaeous of Lyons' quote above 'in his own words' itself (I repeat) points to 'anyone claiming an eternal age or the existence of an eternal aion' to be a 'heretic'. Precedence in authority of doctrine settles the matter since no matter which bishop one may quote (numerous as they may be), they are NOT before Irenaeous NOR an authority of doctrine comparable to him.
The "endless ages of Ages part" never refers to a duration of any punishment.
Also, Irenaeous is clearly rejecting the "eternal age idea" (by some Gnostics) and is affirming the "order of ages idea" (one age after the other, as some Gnostics taught rightly but erred on other serious points such as thinking that the 'Aeon or age' is a 'living being' etc.).
P/S: Who is the 'possible Heretic' now?
Anyone preaching 'eternal life' using the 'Zoe Aionios' found in Matthew 25:46 have a higher chance of being considered a 'Gnostic heretic' (since they alluded to this concept likewise first while Irenaeous did NOT) as described above. In light of all this, ---> Hey, you guys may be 'the Gnostic heretics of some sort' unknown to yourselves too, congratulations.
May God have Mercy on whom He Wills despite our 'theological errors' too (Romans 9:15 - 16).
I will believe the 'real authority in Biblical Koine Greek' and 'Doctrine' ---> St. Irenaeous of Lyons. Yes, Hippolytus was said to be a disciple (or hearer) of Irenaeous too.
Some things only make sense 'retrospectively':
"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 1:19, 26 - 29, KJV)
"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." - God Speaks (in Isaiah 29:14, KJV)
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 3:19, KJV)
Peace to you.
Final Afterlife Judgment - Plato & Justin Martyr - Two Deaths Two Resurrections for the Wicked
1) Did Plato Understand afterlife Judgment Concept Correctly in accordance to the Prophets of the Bible?
Justin Martyr clearly describes the 'Near Death Hell-like experience' attributed to Plato's knowledge to be similar and in agreement to the Prophets too ----> in that even toward the 'most wicked' men (though severe & serious) -----> it lasts only till the 'full penalty' after which they 'may ascend' (which seems to refer to the Hope of Resurrection - to be 'made Alive in Christ' inferred from 1 Corinthians 15:22 as a "HOPE" toward the Wicked too, Acts 24:15 as part and puzzle beyond the afterlife Judgment to the 'last Penny' which must be endured by these first - Luke 12:59).
Here's is Justin's writing on that:
"And in the tenth book he plainly and manifestly wrote what he had LEARNED from the PROPHETS about the JUDGMENT, not as if he had learned it from them, but, on account of his fear of the Greeks, AS IF he had heard it from a MAN who has been SLAIN in battle--for this story he thought fit to INVENT--and who, when he was about to be buried on the twelfth day, and was lying on the FUNERAL pile, CAME to LIFE AGAIN, and DESCRIBED the OTHER WORLD.
The following are his every words: "For he said that he was present when one was asked by another person where the great Ardiaeus was. This Ardiaeus had been prince in a certain city of Pamphylia, and had killed his aged father and his elder brother, and done many other unhallowed deeds, as was reported. He said, then that the person who was asked said: He neither comes nor ever will come hither.
For we SAW, among other TERRIBLE SIGHTS, this also. When we were dose to the MOUTH [of the PIT], and were about to return to the upper air, and had suffered everything else, we suddenly beheld both him and others likewise, most of whom were tyrants.
But there were also some private SINNERS who had committed GREAT CRIMES. And these, when they thought they were to ASCEND, the MOUTH would NOT PERMIT, but bellowed when any of those who were so INCURABLY WICKED attempted to ASCEND, UNLESS they had PAID the FULL PENALTY.
Then fierce men, fiery to look at, stood close by, and hearing the din,s took some and led them away; but Ardiaeus and the rest, having bound hand and foot, and striking their heads down, and flaying, they dragged to the road outside, tearing them with thorns, and signifying to those who were present the cause of their suffering these things, and that they were leading them away to cast them into Tartams. Hence, he said, that amidst all their various fears, this one was the greatest, lest the MOUTH should bellow when they ASCENDED, since if it were silent each one would most gladly ASCEND; and that the punishments and torments were such as these, and that, on the other hand, the rewards were the reverse of these."
Here PLATO seems to me to have LEARNT from the PROPHETS not only the DOCTRINE of the JUDGMENT, but also of the RESURRECTION, which the Greeks refuse to believe. For his saying that the soul is judged along with the body, proves nothing more clearly than that he believed the doctrine of the resurrection. Since how could Ardiaeus and the rest have undergone such PUNISHMENT in HADES, had they left on earth the body, with its head, hands, feet, and skin? For certainly they will never say that the soul has a head and hands, and feet and skin. But Plato, having fallen in with the testimonies of the prophets in Egypt, and having accepted what they teach concerning the resurrection of the body, teaches that the soul is judged in company with the body." - Justin Martyr (CHAPTER XXVII - PLATO'S KNOWLEDGE OF THE JUDGEMENT, JUSTIN'S HORTATORY ADDRESS TO THE GREEKS)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-hortatory.html
2) Did Earliest Christianity Understand that the Wicked has Two Deaths followed by Two Resurrections?
First Death of the Wicked = 'their earthly death' where their soul separates from the body to go into Hades (Luke 16:19 - 31).
First Resurrection of the Wicked = the Wicked are Raised for Judgment during the GENERAL RESURRECTION with a 'body + soul + spirit' during the Final Lake of Fire or Gehenna Judgment (John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2, Revelation 20:11 - 15, Matthew 25:31 - 46).
Second Death of the Wicked = Only the 'body + soul' of the Wicked (which contained their sins) is Burnt away by the 'Unquenchable Fires of Gehenna' till 'evil ceases to exist' (i.e. 'Destroyed' (Matthew 10:28) giving them NO continuance in existence in this 'state of body + soul which DIES permanently' (but 'their spirit lives to God first' - 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5).
Second Resurrection for the Wicked = After their 'body + soul is destroyed in the resurrected for Judgment body in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire', the Wicked are 'raised' to life with 'their spirit living to God' earlier post this Final Judgment (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5) where these will be given a 'spiritual body' in a much lower glory sinless bodily resurrection as a HOPE toward them too (Acts 24:15) as Christ's MAKING ALIVE part applies to ALL MEN (including the wicked too, 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) in its OWN ORDER of TIMES (implied in 1 Corinthians 15:23) according to God's Decision freely (1 Corinthians 15:38 - 44).
Yes, Justin quotes the above in "support" of the Christian View of 'Afterlife Judgment' in agreement with the 'Prophets' too that it is NOT forever even for the 'incurably wicked' (Can you see it in the above?) but only till the last penny as Christ Taught in Luke 12:59 too, I repeat those phrases in the above pointing to this (below) for EMPHASIS:
"they thought they were to ASCEND, the MOUTH would NOT PERMIT, but bellowed when any of those who were so INCURABLY WICKED attempted to ASCEND, UNLESS they had PAID the FULL PENALTY." (Doesn't this point to Afterlife Judgment to be NOT forever but only till the last penny only in Justin Martyr understanding of Doctrine & Holy Scripture in regards to this Topic?)
Do consider 'carefully' that Justin refers to the ASCEND after enduring the 'Full Penalty' in the 'Pit of the Other (afterlife) World in Hades' ----> as the 'SECOND RESURRECTION Hope for these Wicked' which Plato learnt from the Prophets (agreeing to 1 Peter 3:18 - 20 with the same effect described in 1 Peter 4:6 in that post Judgment these will live to God in the spirit-state) -----> the Hope of the 'Ascend or SECOND Resurrection' being a real possibility only after Lord Jesus Christ Who is the Resurrection and the Life has been Manifested in the Flesh ----> this Hope is evidenced by Justin's words as follows (from the above) ------> "Here PLATO seems to me to have LEARNT from the PROPHETS not only the DOCTRINE of the JUDGMENT, but also of the RESURRECTION" ---> referring to the Second Resurrection as they only rise from this after their Final Judgment which must be 'after their first resurrection for Judgment' (John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2) in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire first (Matthew 10:28, 'the dead' in Revelation 20:11 - 15 & 1 Peter 4:5, the 'goats' in Matthew 25:31 - 46) ----> where these ASCEND (the only ascend spoken of Post-Judgment in this passage) -----> in "ASCEND, UNLESS they had PAID the FULL PENALTY." ----> which is clearly referring to the HOPE of "ASCEND from the PIT (of Hades) toward these incurably wicked" but only after they had paid their "FULL PENALTY" (agreeing Perfectly to Luke 12:59 too).
Isn't Justin's discourse above 'Deep Theology'?
Please note that Justin clearly emphasizes that this Final Judgment to happen in the "flesh" (body + soul) of the 'wicked' who are 'resurrected for Judgment first' (John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2 in a body + soul + spirit) pointing to such 'similarities in aspect' when it's rightly presented in regards to this 'Doctrine of Judgment' in Greek mythology too.
As pointed out earlier, only the 'body + soul' of the wicked is to be destroyed in Gehenna (or Lake of Fire, Matthew 10:28) while these may 'live in the spirit state first post this Judgment' (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5) to get a suitable 'sinless imperishable sinless spiritual body' (of lower glory, as God Wills, 1 Corinthians 15:38 - 44) as the Hope of being 'made Alive in Christ - part' (1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) which applies to 'all men including the wicked too' (Acts 24:15) ----> as these words in the write up below from Justin seem to point to a 'Larger Hope':
GLAD TIDINGS of a NEW and strange HOPE to MEN (Generally toward the wicked too, agreeing to Acts 24:15) ----> STRANGE and NEW thing for GOD to PROMISE that ----> He would NOT keep INCORRUPTION in INCORRUPTION, -----> but would make CORRUPTION INCORRUPTION.
Please note that the phrase 'God would NOT keep INCORRUPTION in INCORRUPTION' (in Justin's words above) ----> challenges or refutes the popular idea that "incorruption or sinlesness is only for the holy ones" ----> because Justin continues and mentions further that ----> God "would make CORRUPTION INCORRUPTION" as well ---> meaning that there is HOPE for the 'corruption' (wicked and sin laden ones to be set free too to being sinless again) -----> as this same Hope is echoed by apostle Paul in Romans 8:20 - 21 where the rest of Creation will share in this aspect/area together with the "Church, sons of God" (Romans 8:19) into being set free into sinlessness eventually -----> and this being 'Born Again into sinlessness or incorruption' is the "birth pangs" Promised to "All Creation " eventually too (Romans 8:22).
3) Understanding the Doctrine of Apocatastasis or Restoration of All [Created] Things to be in Stages of TIMES
St. Irenaeous of Lyons clearly writes (in 'Against Heresies', last chapters in Book 5) quoting The 1000 years Millennial Reign as the Beginning of the Creation being set free from sin (quoting Romans 8:20 - 21) as well likewise toward the First Resurrection on the Seventh or Last Day of this Current AGE1 (Revelation 20:4 - 6, Romans 8:19).
We understand that it's not limited to Creation at that time only (which is the beginning of the Promised Renewal in Romans 8:20 - 21) but also that this "being set free into the liberty of being sinless" is Promised toward "All Creation" too which awaits "in birth pangs" till it takes place for each of the all to partake of this "incorruption" eventually (as Prophesied Majestically in Romans 8:22 as well).
4) Did Justin Martyr write the above by knowing a Larger Hope which is inclusive of ALL MEN Generally?
Yes, please consider the write up below from Justin regarding the "Resurrection" which seems to point to this 'Larger Hope' of 'being clothed in an incorruptible body' (hence sinless body) as the Final Effect of Lord Jesus Christ's Resurrection toward 'all men Generally' agreeing to this exegesis with 'his own words':
" then the Saviour said this, and proclaimed salvation to the soul alone, what new thing, beyond what we heard from Pythagoras and Plato and all their band, did He bring us? But now He has come proclaiming the GLAD TIDINGS of a NEW and strange HOPE to MEN.
For indeed it was a STRANGE and NEW thing for GOD to PROMISE that He would NOT keep INCORRUPTION in INCORRUPTION, but would make CORRUPTION INCORRUPTION.
But because the prince of wickedness could in no other way corrupt the truth, he sent forth his apostles (evil men who introduced pestilent doctrines), choosing them from among those who crucified our Saviour; and these men bore the name of the Saviour, but did the works of him that sent them, through whom the name itself has been spoken against." - Justin Martyr (CHAPTER X.--THE BODY SAVED, AND WILL THEREFORE RISE, FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-resurrection.html
Truly God's Judgments are Righteous:
"... And being present at His judicial decision, all, both MEN and ANGELS and DEMONS, shall utter one voice, saying, "RIGHTEOUS is Thy JUDGMENT." ... since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal (age-during) bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal (age-during) punishment. . And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them ..." - Hippolytus of Rome (AGAINST PLATO, ON THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE, Point 3)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus-dogmatical.html
5) Are the DRAGONS and SOULS of the DEAD in the afterlife abodes of the SHADOW of DEATH regions?
How can Hippolytus of Rome mention that even the DEMONS ---> will utter 'RIGHTEOUS is Thy JUDGMENT'?
Please consider the Verse below and note the word 'DRAGONS' (literally) which may point to DEMONS ---> who are Prophetically said to HONOUR GOD as well eventually:
"The beast of the field shall HONOUR ME, the DRAGONS ['tan·nîm'] and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My people, My chosen." - God Speaks (in Isaiah 43:20, KJV)
Some translations 'change' the 'literal meaning of Dragon' in the above which is the Hebrew Word 'tan·nîm' which also occurs in passages such as Isaiah 27:1 (i.e. 'the DRAGON' in the Sea) pointing to SATAN himself (Revelation 20:2, Revelation 12:9) and more literally in Hebrew (the exact word) in Psalm 44:19 which describes the 'afterlife abodes of the SHADOW of DEATH regions in which the SOULS of the DEAD are as St. Irenaeous revealed in his writing' to whom, He said, CHRIST went there too (to Preach the Gospel, 1 Peter 3:18 - 20), to quote:
"If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day “in the lower parts of the earth” [Eph. 4:9] ; then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples [John 20:20, 27], He thus ascended to the Father; [if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that “the lower parts” refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord “WENT AWAY in the midst of the SHADOW of DEATH” [Ps. 23:4], WHERE the SOULS of the DEAD were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the SOULS of HIS DISCIPLES also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, SHALL GO away into the INVISIBLE PLACE allotted to them by God, and THERE REMAIN until the RESURRECTION, awaiting that event; then RECEIVING THEIR BODIES, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter XXXI:2).
Source: http://www.regels.org/Irenaeus-Millennarism.htm
Do note these phrases from the above by Irenaeous ('not' my opinion) 'carefully' to realize this 'often missed Truth in popular exegesis':
(i) The SHADOW of DEATH Regions are where the SOULS of the DEAD are
"For as the Lord “WENT AWAY in the midst of the SHADOW of DEATH” [Ps. 23:4], WHERE the SOULS of the DEAD were" - St. Irenaeous of Lyons ('Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter XXXI:2)
Is Salvation Possible in these SHADOW of DEATH Regions toward these SOULS? Yes by Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah:
Example Verses:
“There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the SHADOW of DEATH, Prisoners in misery and chains,
Because THEY had REBELLED against the words of God And spurned the counsel of the Most High.
Therefore He humbled their heart with labor;They stumbled and there was none to help.
Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble; He SAVED them out of their distresses.
He brought THEM OUT of DARKNESS and the SHADOW of DEATH and broke their bands apart.
Let them give thanks to the Lord for His loving KINDNESS, and for His WONDERS to the sons of MEN!” (Psalm 107:10-15, NASB)
The DARKNESS (“Outer Darkness”, Matthew 8:12) and SHADOW of DEATH (Job 38:17) here refers to the AFTERLIFE Prisons and punishment Regions of Sheol/Hades which we may call as HELL.
More Details regarding this Topic of the Rarely known 'SHADOW of DEATH' Mystery in Holy Scripture, please consider 'more Verses' in links below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/hells-missed-messianic-prophecy-shadow-of-death/
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/afterlife-salvation-mysteries/
(ii) What happens to believers in faith when we die?
This is the meaning of 'rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord' (2 Corinthians 5:8) and 'raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus' (in Ephesians 2:6) as apostle Paul Wrote:
"SOULS of HIS DISCIPLES also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, SHALL GO away into the INVISIBLE PLACE allotted to them by God, and THERE REMAIN until the RESURRECTION" - St. Irenaeous of Lyons ('Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter XXXI:2)
(iii) What is the meaning of Resurrection?
The SOUL (with spirit) RECEIVING a BODY (i.e. 'the Redemption of the Body' as apostle Paul called it in Romans 8:23):
"awaiting that EVENT [i.e. the First Resurrection]; then RECEIVING THEIR BODIES, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the Presence of God." - St. Irenaeous of Lyons ('Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter XXXI:2)
Returning to Hippolytus' writing earlier:
Please note that the 'the fire which is un-quenchable and without end' in the above as stated by Hippolytus refers to its 'continual burning' (be it a literal fire or spiritual fire or a mixture of both) to the "age, age-during" (as pointed out in earlier discussions that the Greek word used pertains to the age-singular or ages-plural respectively).
6) Isn't it Finished?
A Popular Fallacy in Christian Universalism is to 'assume' that the Phrases 'It is Finished' or 'It is Done' means that 'It has all come to pass' where in Truth these are PROPHETICALLY Stated as the Requirement for Lord Jesus Christ to Die on His Cross First and Shed His BLOOD was the NECESSARY Secret which makes the Rest of Scripture to be Fulfilled eventually (without a any possibility of being stopped - Matthew 5:17 - 19,
Here's an Explanation in the Context of Universal Reconciliation of ALL CREATED THINGS (Colossians 1:16) back to Him eventually by His BLOOD (please note the Word BLOOD in Colossians 1:20) which Makes ALL THINGS POSSIBLE by God (Luke 1:37) in the CONTEXT of SALVATION as echoed by the Question 'who then can be saved?' (Matthew 19:25 - 26).
Please consider (these Scriptural Details - with Verses):
All Things New - What is the meaning of 'It is Finished' or 'It is Done'?
Lord Jesus Christ's Finished Work is stated Prophetically at the Cross (John 19:30). It doesn't mean that after His Resurrection 'sin ceased to exist in the world' and there is NO more say final Judgment in the Lake of Fire (for example).
In Revelation 21:6 we find the similar phrase 'It is Done!' where it's Written in the Context of God making 'All [Created] things New' (Revelation 21:5).
Yes, 'It is Done/Finished' in Revelation 21:6 points to the 'former things' (including this current earth with the sea to have ceased to exist, Revelation 21:4) and a 'New earth with NO sea to be have been created' (Revelation 21:1) together with the New Jerusalem to have Descended from the New Heaven upon the New Earth (Revelation 21:2) ---> where NONE of these have occurred yet (Proving that these Statements are Prophetic in nature).
'It is Done' in Revelation 21:6 also points to God Dwelling among Men (visibly - implied, in Revelation 21:3) with 'mourning, or crying, or pain; or the first things having passed away, or ceased to exist' (Revelation 21:4) which has NOT occurred yet either.
Also, 'It is Finished' in Revelation 21:6 points to the 'thirsty ones' being able to drink from the Water of Life (which hasn't occurred yet, it is literal & and 'external drinking', Revelation 22:17) and is NOT referring to the 'internal spiritual drink' which believers or His Bride drinks (John 7:38) as to taste the powers of the age to come now (Hebrews 6:5) where His Bride or Overcomers inherit 'All [Created] things' (Revelation 21:7, Ephesians 1:22) which is in parallel to the 'wicked' having their 'part in the Lake of Fire simultaneously' (Revelation 21:8) ---> where again, NONE of these Prophetic statement are done yet.
We find another similar phrase where Christ says that 'His Work is Finished or Done/Accomplished' (in John 17:4) which is Written in the Context of 'age-during life' (John 17:3) being given to ALL FLESH eventually (John 17:2) thereafter which Christ Prophetically echoes to Return to His Full Glory again (John 17:1, 5) which He 'let go' of Earlier (Philippians 2:6 - 7) Humbling Himself for Love's Sake to Save the World (1 John 4:14) ---> which is NOT Done yet for all as ALL FLESH is NOT Resurrected in a Body yet (So, this Statement again is Prophetic in assuring that Christ Will Accomplish ALL the Work of God).
The Verses above are in 'Context' in regards to the Meaning 'It is Finished or It is Done' (linking these together, John 19:30, Revelation 21:6, John 17:4 - Prophetically).
Yes, in the Context of Universal Reconciliation and Salvation too, the Infamous Prophecy of ALL [Created] THINGS to be Reconciled back to Him eventually (Colossians 1:16, 20 or 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28) is NOT Done yet either (as Hebrews 2:8 clearly Reveals) with NOTHING being left Un-subject to Him (meaning that there is NO Eternal Hell where evil can exist eternally - can you see it?) ---> when that Happens (being FULFILLED - Matthew 5:17 - 18) in its OWN DIVINE TIMES APPOINTED for this 'as it is Written' (Ephesians 1:9 - 10, Acts 3:21, 1 Timothy 2:6) Proving again that these Verses are Prophetic.
Hence, Judgment is Real and though Salvation is a Free Gift of God, some only attain it after [afterlife] Judgment in the Lake of Fire (for the Wicked) first [as my post regarding this aspect titled 'Final Afterlife Judgment - Plato & Justin Martyr' reveals some 'hidden things in parallel between Early Christianity and the Greek Stories] ----> and 'our obedience toward God plays a role toward our reward or inheritance level in His Kingdom of the Heavens' (as Matthew 5:19 implies in the Context of being 'least vs greatest' there).
P/S: Eternal Fire - has an End?
"Then, though thou art placed on earth, thou shalt behold that God liveth in heaven; then shalt thou begin to declare the mysteries of God; then shalt thou both love and admire those that are punished because they will not deny God; then shalt thou condemn the deceit and error of the world; when thou shalt perceive the true life which is in heaven, when
thou shalt despise the apparent death which is here on earth, when thou shalt fear the REAL DEATH, which is reserved for THOSE that shall be CONDEMNED to the ETERNAL FIRE that shall PUNISH those delivered over to it unto the END." (Diognetus 10:7)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diognetus-lightfoot.html
How is it possible?
Firstly, it should be literally translated as "age-during fire" (a fire that lasts to the age), right?
Based on this, there are two possibilities:
(i) Age-during fire lasts a long time to the age (in maximum duration of sentencing) and not forever, hence the words:
"REAL DEATH, ... THOSE ... CONDEMNED to the ETERNAL ('age-during') FIRE ... PUNISH those ... unto the END".
Or
(ii) Age-during fire causes the real death (or destruction to both body + soul only as per Matthew 10:28 at Gehenna or the Lake of Fire) and not forever, hence the words:
"REAL DEATH, ... THOSE ... CONDEMNED to the ETERNAL ('age-during') FIRE ... PUNISH those ... unto the END".
They will live in the 'spirit state' post this 'Judgment or Destruction in the flesh' (where both 'body + soul' = 'flesh' may 'die' or be 'destroyed') as per 1 Peter 4:6 and 1 Corinthians 5:5 where the latter was prophetically spoken toward a backslider who was assumed to be unrepentant & destined for the Lake of Fire (Final Judgment, implied) when this Verse (in 1 Corinthians 5:5) was spoken toward him.
Yes, that 'man's spirit may still be saved in the particular Day of Lord Jesus (Time Period)' where these may 'live in the spirit state post afterlife Judgment accordingly' despite Judgment in their flesh [body, soul or both] (as per 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5).
Existence of the - Ages to Come
"For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal (age-during) and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever, age-during?] and for the AGES to COME. Amen.'." (Polycarp 14:3, The Martyrdom of Polycarp)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/martyrdompolycarp-lightfoot.html
Christ is the (age-during) heavenly High-priest to the end of this AGE1 (and NOT forever) as described above (Polycarp 14:3) agreeing to Hebrews 7:17, 24 too because He makes Intercessions for 'believers of faith (His Church, His Bride) only' till the End of this age only (Hebrews 7:25) where we are Immortal and sinless in the next age for sure (hence Christ does NOT need to Perform those Intercessions for us anymore beyond this age, AGE1 - Can you see it? only sinners need a high priest to make intercessions for them, as the Current Role demands in Hebrews 7:24 - 25, Context).
"Ages to come" (Ephesians 2:7) and in Polycarp 14:3 too = AGE2, AGE3, ...
An Edifying comment, in an earlier post I defined the "Ages" in 'ages of Ages' (e. g. in Revelation 20:10) as follows:
Ages (in Revelation 20:10) = AGE1, AGE2, AGE3, ... AGE(k), ... to infinity.
I labelled the 'Ages' (Universal Set) to begin from the 'Current Age (AGE1)' simply because God (Lord Jesus Christ) only became Flesh in this current AGE1 onwards.
The other possibility is that this Universal Set of "Ages" could include the "ages past" too (e. g. of a Verse proving its existence, Colossians 1:26) in which case, we could also allow the Definition of "Ages" to be the following or equivalent (with NO contradictions to our primarily 'literal exegesis' in any way):
Ages (in Revelation 20:10) = ..., AGE(-1), AGE(0), AGE1, AGE2, AGE3, ... AGE(k), ... to infinity.
Where the phrase "ages past" (popularly translated thus in Colossians 1:26) = ... AGE(-1), AGE(0) where the plural-ages here indicates at least two past ages before our current AGE1.
Indeed,
"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." - Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:12, 33, NASB)
An Irony:
"For this reason also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute," - Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 11:49, NASB)
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city," - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:34, NASB)
The Difference?
We, the believers of Universal Reconciliation in Lord Jesus Christ NEVER Persecute NOR Kill anyone who disagrees with us. We let everyone have 'their choice of belief'. The beast or antichrist will kill others too (the wolf kills the lamb and eats it - the lamb doesn't persecute other lambs).
"But this happened so that the statement written in their law might be fulfilled: They HATED ME for NO REASON." (John 15:25, CSB)
Truly:
"For nothing will be impossible with God." - Archangel Gabriel in regards to Lord Jesus Christ Coming as God in Flesh (Luke 1:37, NASB)
Peace.
Aeons - Resurrection - Souls - Facts from St. Irenaeous of Lyons
1) Aeons - Are Aeons distinguishable from each other?
Whilst discussing a heresy of the gnostics, St. Irenaeous mentions the following:
"And besides; "the eternal [Aeonian, Age-during] fire which the Father has prepared for the devil and his angels," -they ought to show of which of those Aeons that are above it is the image; for it, too, is reckoned part of the creation." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter VII - Created Things are Not the Images of Those Aeons Who are Within the Pleroma, Point 3)
Please note carefully that Irenaeous is quoting the Verse in Matthew 25:41 where the same Greek singular-word "Aeon" (or Eon or 'age') occurs ---> and puts the burden of the argument that the Gnostics ought to show 'which of those Aeons that are above it is the image' ---> proving that the 'Aeonion fire or age-during fire' is for a particular "age" only, namely AGE2 in our write ups.
The heresy Irenaeous is discussing in this passage relates to some Gnostics' claim that an 'Aeon or Age' is an 'Image of some creation''.
Thus in relation to the 'Punishment Aeon' described in Matthew 25:41, St. Irenaeous is obviously ridiculing these Gnostics by asking them 'which Image of Creation' corresponds to being 'fiery' like that future Aeon or Punishment Age (AGE2)?
Since NO such 'creation (or image) in fire exists' as per 'their hypothesis that each Aeon corresponds to a creation', hence the Gnostic's claim that an Aeon has a creation-mirror is a 'false statement' (implied by Irenaeous argument above).
By usage itself it is clear that St. Irenaeous looks at the next Aeon (singular - AGE2) referred to in Matthew 25:41 as distinguishable and is part of a subset of Aeons (plural) ---> and that's why he asks 'which creation (past of present, implied) corresponds to the next Aeon, AGE2?' (Implied) ---> Meaning that Irenaeous does NOT see the 'next age, AGE2' as 'eternal' but as a 'singular age/aeon only' out of the larger set of 'plural ages/aeons' into which it belongs.
2) Souls - Afterlife Description
(i) Body Sleeps at Death and NOT the Soul
"... For as, when the body is asleep and at rest,... " (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXXIII.-Absurdity of the Doctrine of the Transmigration of Souls, Point 1)
(ii) The Rich Man and Lazarus Story is LITERAL
"The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham.
In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning, Point 1)
4) The Righteous - Granted AUTOMATIC Continuance of Life to the 'ages of Ages' & beyond (implied).
"... So also any one who thinks thus respecting SOULS and SPIRITS, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance.
The prophetic Spirit bears testimony to these opinions, when He declares, "For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created: He hath established them for ever [the Aeon], yea, forever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons]."
And again, He thus speaks respecting the SALVATION of MAN: "He asked life of Thee, and Thou gavest him length of days for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons]; " indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons] on THOSE who are SAVED.
For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the GRACE of GOD.
And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons]..." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning, first part of Point 3)
[my emphasis in brackets - guessing a little at which possible Greek Phrase or Aeon Compound might have occurred here as per the standard translation procedure - please note that even if any 'Aeon compound words' above are wrong, the ARGUMENT still HOLDS - Please read point 6 below to 'realize' this at the IRREFUTABLE level]
5) The Wicked - NOT Granted AUTOMATIC Continuance of Life to the 'ages of Ages' & beyond (implied).
"... But he who shall REJECT it, and prove himself UNGRATEFUL to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons].
And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves UNGRATEFUL towards Him: "If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? " indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly NOT RECEIVE from Him length of days for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons]." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning, second part of Point 3)
6) The Eternal Life Heresy
NO Eternal Life is Granted in One Aeon or One Age - The Eternal Age Heresy - Understanding Immortality Correctly.
Body and Soul do NOT exist forever but are subject to God granting its existence from 'age to age' or 'aeon to aeon', that is from 'one aeon to the next':
" ... But ALL THINGS which proceed from Him, WHATSOEVER have been MADE, and are made, do indeed receive their own beginning of generation, and on this account are INFERIOR to Him who formed them, inasmuch as they are not unbegotten. Nevertheless THEY ENDURE, and EXTEND their EXISTENCE into a LONG SERIES of AGES in accordance with the WILL of GOD their Creator; so that He GRANTS them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning, Point 2)
I repeat, please note these phrases 'carefully' from Irenaeous' own words (NOT mine) which proves this claim Irrefutably for 'Sound Doctrine':
ALL THINGS which proceed from Him, WHATSOEVER have been MADE ---> are INFERIOR to Him who formed them ---> THEY ENDURE, and EXTEND their EXISTENCE ---> into a LONG SERIES of AGES ----> [Ages or Aeons - Can you see the Plural 'ages to come' or 'aeons to come' theory true even for 'future ages' as per Ephesians 2:7?) ----> in accordance with the WILL of GOD their Creator, so that He GRANTS them.
This is an Important point to 'Understanding Immortality Correctly' as St. Irenaeous Beautifully explains above.
7) Immortality and the Resurrection for Sheepfold1 - His Bride (His Church) - the FIRST RESURRECTION
"And then the DOCTRINE concerning the RESURRECTION of bodies which we believe, will emerge true and certain [from their system]; since, [as we hold, ] God, when He resuscitates our MORTAL BODIES which PRESERVED RIGHTEOUSNESS, will render them INCORRUPTIBLE and IMMORTAL.
For God is superior to nature, and has in Himself the disposition [to show kindness], because He is good; and the ability to do so, because He is mighty; and the faculty of fully carrying out His purpose, because He is rich and perfect." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXIX.-Refutation of the Views of the Heretics as to the Future Destiny of the Soul and Body, Point 2)
Please note that:
'our MORTAL BODIES which PRESERVED RIGHTEOUSNESS' = refers only to Sheepfold1, His Bride, His Church, i.e. 'believers in Faith of Jesus Christ' ----> will render them INCORRUPTIBLE and IMMORTAL (Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17, Luke 20:35 - 36, Luke 14:14).
Peace to you.
General Judgment - A Possible Hope for non-Christians as well?
What is the General Judgment?
The Judgment which occurs on His Great White Throne on Judgment Day (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28 - 29, Matthew 25:31 - 46, Revelation 20:11 - 15).
Who are possibly Sheepfold2?
The righteous in Good Deeds (Works) who did NOT believe in Lord Jesus Christ during their earthly lives (John 10:16) but may have believed Him in the afterlife after seeing Him (John 6:40) or after hearing the Gospel there (1 Peter 4:6, John 3:14 - 15).
I have discussed it in some details in my post below citing the Shepherd of Hermas & Sadhu Sundar Singh's visions of Hell for the existence of Sheepfold2:
1) Roman Catholic Church
Does the Catholic Church acknowledge that non-Christians may be Saved by the Mercy of Lord Jesus Christ during the "General Judgment"?
To Quote:
"The CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES that at the time of the LAST JUDGMENT Christ will come in His glory, and all the angels with him, and in his presence the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare, and each person who has ever lived will be judged with perfect justice with those believing in Christ (and the UNKNOWN NUMBER of the RIGHTEOUS IGNORANT of CHRIST'S TEACHING, but who MIGHT be MYSTERIOUSLY SAVED through by CHRIST'S ATONEMENT), GOING to EVERLASTING BLISS, and those who reject Christ going to everlasting condemnation.
At that time, all will be resurrected. Those who were in purgatory will have already been purged, meaning they would have already been released into Heaven, and so like those in Heaven and Hell will resurrect with their bodies.
Following the Last Judgment, the bliss of Heaven & Earth, as well as the pains of Hell will be perfected in that those present will also be capable of physical bliss/pain. After the Last Judgment the Universe itself will be renewed with a new Heaven and a new earth in the World to Come.
The Eastern Orthodox and Catholic teachings of the Last Judgment differ only on the exact nature of the in-between state of purgatory/Abraham's Bosom. These differences may only be apparent and not actual due to differing theological terminology and tradition." (Catholicism, Last Judgment - Wikipedia)
Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment
Hope for Sheepfold2?
Please note these words 'carefully' from the above:
The CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES that at the time of the LAST [General] JUDGMENT ----> and the UNKNOWN NUMBER of the RIGHTEOUS IGNORANT of CHRIST'S TEACHING ------> Sheepfold2 (John 10:16) -----> but who MIGHT be MYSTERIOUSLY SAVED ----> through by CHRIST'S ATONEMENT), -----> GOING to EVERLASTING [age-during] BLISS.
2) Eastern Orthodox Church
To Quote (from that same Wikipedia Source):
"Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that salvation is bestowed by God as a free gift of Divine grace, which cannot be earned, and by which forgiveness of sins is available to all.
However, the deeds done by each person are believed to affect how he will be judged, following the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. How forgiveness is to be balanced against behavior is not well-defined in scripture, judgment in the matter being solely Christ's.
Similarly, although ORTHODOXY TEACHES that salvation is obtained only through Christ and his Church, the FATE of THOSE OUTSIDE the CHURCH at the LAST JUDGMENT is left to the MERCY of GOD and is NOT DECLARED." (Eastern Orthodoxy, Last Judgment - Wikipedia)
Hope for Sheepfold2?
Please note these words 'carefully' from the above:
ORTHODOXY TEACHES ----> that salvation is obtained only through Christ and his Church ----> the FATE of THOSE OUTSIDE the CHURCH -----> at the LAST JUDGMENT -----> is left to the MERCY of GOD and is NOT DECLARED.
Conclusion
This Hope remains valid as both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not deny it either as some from among them also believed in it based on these same Bible Verses (quoted prior).
Heresies - Who is a Heretic?
St. Irenaeous of Lyons explains a common trait among those who cause divisions and heresy (which is a main reason why Christianity has tens of thousands of denominations today) simply because they do NOT want to obey the authority of Scripture and its exegesis by the Earliest Authorities of Doctrine.
Indeed, Irenaeous implies (in his own words below, next) that when 'Christian heretics' are confronted with Scripture which contradicts their claim, some of them ATTACK HOLY SCRIPTURE instead (e.g. claiming 'not' to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture) while some of them ATTACK the EARLIEST AUTHORITIES of DOCTRINE instead (e.g. claiming 'not' to believe in Irenaeous' authority or the Wisdom passed down to him - Ironically, these 'modern, new theories' all started with 'later theologians only' who disrespected say Irenaeos' Sound Exegesis - Can you see it?)
"When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but vivâ voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world." And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.
But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.
Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where-fore they must be opposed at all points, if per-chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it." (Iraneous, 'Against Heresies', Book III, Point 1, Point 2, Point 3 respectively)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html
Conclusion
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all SPEAK the SAME THING, and that there be NO DIVISIONS among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the SAME MIND and in the SAME JUDGMENT." - apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 1:20, KJV)
Please choose your Christian leaders 'wisely'. From my write up it is clear that after the Bible, I stand with St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeos of Lyons in regards to Scriptural Exegesis both in Doctrine & being earliest Authorities in Biblical Koine Greek too. I cannot find an extensive Writings of other Reliable Christian saints who may have existed during their time or earlier in discussing the Important Topics which is Found in their Writings.
Why should we pay attention to them?
If we don't, we may be believing the very heresies they fought against which may have clothed itself in 'new ways'. Also, rebellion is as witchcraft (1 Samuel 15:22 – 23).
Hence the Verse below mentions the 'Reward' (most likely in the afterlife) for ACCEPTING these men as BOTH (as 'prophets' & as 'righteous men') instead of 'opposing them' (as some Rebellious Christianity does - of which we STRONGLY DISAGREE with such behaviour - please, be wise as I'm pretty sure that Papias, Irenaeous are very close to Lord Jesus Christ & will be in the Heavens post Resurrection):
"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward." - Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:41, NASB)
Also, to 'submit' to these earliest righteous Christian leaders is instructed in Holy Scripture:
"Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith." - Anonymous (Hebrews 13:7, NASB)
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." - Anonymous (Hebrews 13:17, NASB)
I do not submit to any modern Christian leader who refuses to acknowledge the authority of St. Justin Martyr or St. Irenaeous - Isn't it obvious?
Why should I disregard Justin & Irenaeous and follow your pastor if he preaches against them?
I'm NOT going to choose the 'second best onward' when 'the best leaders of Earliest Christianity next to the Apostles of Christ and their Presbyters are available to us in these ancient writings'.
Please ask this Important Question regarding any Doctrine you believe: Who and When was the 'first time' in Christian History did someone reliable believe what you believe today?
Do you 'understand' it?
If we ignore His Scripture and His earliest leaders, 'our own ministry, exegesis and works' may be ignored as well (yes, our 'own ignoring of Scripture' and 'not recognizing of these earliest Christian leaders' ---> is returned back to us in Principle of Judgment where 'we reap what we have sown', Galatians 6:7 in Lawlessness too, Matthew 7:20 - 23). That's a Reason 'why' I take these Reliable Saints 'seriously'.
Please remember this: I am NOT the one 'bad mouthing these saints' or 'rejecting them'. I respect them deeply for their Wisdom in Holy Scripture and because they come from a lineage of authority which is very close to the times of the apostles themselves.
All Things - Aeons - Salvation of All - Secrets from St. Irenaeous of Lyons
1) Biblical Definition and Distinction
(i) Immortality
Immortality (English) = Athanasian (Transliterated Greek)
Meaning = Deathless
Example Verses: 1 Timothy 6:16, 1 Corinthians 15:53
(ii) Mortal
Mortal (English) = thnēton (Transliterated Greek)
Example Verse: 1 Corinthians 15:53
Meaning = Can die, perish or cease to exist
(iii) Incorruption
Incorruption (English) = Aphtharsian (Transliterated Greek)
Example Verse: 1 Corinthians 15:53
Meaning = Sinless (Unaffected by Sin & its effects)
(iv) Corruption
Corruption (English) = phthoras (Transliterated Greek)
Example Verse: 1 Corinthians 15:53, Romans 8:21
Meaning = Sinful (Affected by Sin & its effects)
2) Immortality vs Age-during
As explained in write-ups prior, the Greek Word for "Immortality" (e.g. "athanasian" in 1 Timothy 6:16 or 1 Corinthians 15:53) is different from the Greek Word "Aeon" (or 'Age', 'age-during', 'Aeonian', e.g. Matthew 25:46, Ephesians 2:7, Matthew 12:32).
Did St. Irenaeous of Lyons (a first authority in Biblical Koine Greek & Doctrine) understand that 'Immortality' is different from 'Age-during'?
Please consider 'his own words' below:
"God, therefore, is one and the same, who rolls up the heaven as a book, and renews the face of the earth; who made the things of time. for man, so that coming to maturity in them, he may produce the fruit of immortality; and who, through His kindness, also bestows [upon him] eternal things, "that in the ages to come He may show the exceeding riches of His grace;" (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter V, Point 1)
I repeat, with my EMPHASIS [in brackets too] for further clarity:
"God, therefore, is one and the same, who ROLLS UP the HEAVEN as a book, and RENEWS the face of the EARTH; Who [God] made the THINGS of TIME. for MAN, so that COMING to MATURITY in them, he may produce the fruit of IMMORTALITY; and Who [God], through His Kindness, also bestows [upon him, MAN] eternal [AGE-DURING or AEONIAN] things, "that in the ages [AEONS] to come He may show the exceeding riches of His grace;" (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter V, Point 1)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
Explanation:
(i) None of these Created things Lasts Forever in the Current State
Context: "things of time" and 'not things of timeless-ness'.
Please note the phrase "[God] made the THINGS of TIME" ---> referring to act of "rolling up heaven" and "renewing the earth" -----> which proves that these 'created things' are NOT forever.
Yes, these 'created things' ---> being 'bestowed upon man' ---> are said to be AEONIAN or 'age-during', i.e. 'lasting to the age' ---> the phrase "[God], through His Kindness, also bestows [upon him, MAN] eternal [AGE-DURING or AEONIAN] things" means this agreeing to the Verse below too (when 'literally' translated):
"we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are AGE-DURING [Greek: aiōnia]." - apostle Paul (2 Corinthians 4:18, YLT)
(ii) Purpose of the Ages
"according to a purpose of the ages [Greek: aiōnōn], which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord," - apostle Paul (Ephesians 3:11, YLT)
A Purpose for the 'ages' is described beautifully by Irenaeous above in that God created the things for man to last to the 'age only' (i.e. 'Aeonian - adjective') so that it fits man's level of 'maturity' to be able to 'live in it' ---> as the phrase "[God] made the THINGS of TIME. for MAN, so that COMING to MATURITY in them..." implies.
(iii) Does Irenaeous make a distinction between Immortality vs Age-during?
Yes. How?
The 'rolled up heaven' and 'renewed earth' ---> indicates that the 'age-during things bestowed for that time' has 'ceased' ---> proving by 'his own usage' itself that 'Aeonian or age-during' does NOT mean eternal but 'lasting to the age only'.
Also, how does Irenaeous understand the Biblical Concept of 'ages [Greek: aiōsin] to Come' as he quotes Ephesians 2:7 in his writing above?
As explained in an earlier write up too, Irenaeous clearly understands Immortality conferred to upon men by God in the following manner:
God gives man 'created things' ---> 'age by age' or in an 'Aeonian manner' and NOT via an 'eternal or incorruptible or immortal age' [as the Gnostics erred - point out in my previous write up] ---> as these phrases imply irrefutably:
'God, ... made the things of time. for man, ... the fruit of immortality; ... also bestows [upon him] eternal things, "that in the ages to come ...'
I repeat, With Emphasis:
"God, ... made the THINGS of TIME. for MAN, ... the fruit of IMMORTALITY; ... also bestows [upon him, MAN] eternal [AGE-DURING or AEONIAN] things, "that in the ages [AEONS] to come ..."
Conclusion
This is 'how' Irenaeous Understood Immortality:
Immortality = 'Age-during things' given from age to age into the 'ages to come' according to Man's Growth and Maturity from glory to glory without end.
So, the afterlife Judgment of 'age-during fire' (Matthew 25:41) or 'age-during chastisement' (Matthew 25:46) is for the benefit of the wicked too and lasts to that 'one future age only, AGE2' (and NOT forever, Matthew 12:32 as well) since there are 'ages to come' (Ephesians 2:7, at least AGE2, AGE3) proving that the 'next Aeon/Age' (AGE2) cannot be eternal as it must make way for AG3 which Scripture Prophesies its existence and Irenaeous understands it likewise too as a 'factual statement' and 'not a figure of speech'.
Indeed, here are three quotes which prove that St. Irenaeous (in his own words) acknowledges the ORDER of the AEONS concept as BIBLICAL TRUTH (i.e. one age ends and is followed by another) which is very Biblical toward 'ages (aeons) past too' (e.g. Colossians 1:26) as it is Written in Holy Scripture:
- a) Aeons or Ages follow ORDER in succession
Is it a heresy to use the phrase ‘aeons of the Aeons?’
Irenaeous reveals that it is NOT heresy to use the ‘same phrase’ —> ‘ages of Ages’ or ‘aeons of the Aeons’ but only that we should NOT refer to the ‘aeons’ as some sort of ‘living creature or beings’ as the Gnostics did but take it just as a ‘Time Period only’.
“… Paul also, they [Gnostic-heretics] affirm, very clearly and frequently names these AEONS, and even goes so far as to PRESERVE their ORDER, when he [apostle Paul] says, “To all the generations of the Aeons of the Aeon.” Nay, we ourselves, when at the giving of thanks we pronounce the words, “To Aeons of Aeons”, do set forth these Aeons. And, in fine, wherever the words Aeon or Aeons occur, they at once refer them to these beings.” (St. Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Chapter 3:1)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html
I removed the translator’s addition of (forever and ever) – yes, which was added by the translator (his bias) and kept the above to Irenaeous’ translated words with [my emphasis in brackets]. Please compare with the translation in the provided link should you wish to ‘compare’ and ‘see’.
Please note carefully that Irenaeous affirms that we affirm the existence of these ‘Aeons’ or ‘Ages’ (and we do NOT deny it) —> as his phrase ‘we ourselves, … “To Aeons of Aeons”, do set forth these Aeons’.
Yes, do note 'carefully' the following:
"Paul also, they [Gnostic-heretics] affirm, very clearly and frequently names these AEONS, and even goes so far as to PRESERVE their ORDER"
Which means that apostle "Paul ... names these AEONS ... PRESERVE their ORDER" ---> apostle Paul NAMES the Aeons in the context of ORDER. Example:
The Present evil Aeon ('current age' - singular) = AGE1 (Galatians 1:4).
The 'Aeons to come' ('future ages' - plural) = AGE2, AGE3, ... (Ephesians 2:7).
Thus Irenaeous is conclusively admitting and proving in his own words that we also believe in the existence of ‘one age after the other’ (i.e. one aeon after the other) except that we do NOT think of the ‘Ages or Aeons’ as ‘living beings of some sort’ as the ‘Gnostics erred’.
- b) The Incorruptible or never Growing Old Aeon
Second quote - Irenaeous does NOT seem to affirm the existence of an Eternal or Immortal Aeon.
The heresy of the ‘incorruptible aeon’ or ‘immortal age’ is stated in the Gnostic sect’s heresy below (please note this phrase carefully):
“The father and son thus both had intercourse with the woman (whom they also call the mother of the living). When, however, she could not bear nor receive into herself the greatness of the lights, they declare that she was filled to repletion, and became ebullient on the left side; and that thus their only son Christ, as belonging to the right side, and ever tending to what was higher, was immediately caught up with his mother to form an INCORRUPTIBLE AEON.” (St. Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Chapter XXX:2)
Also, Irenaeous calles the concept of an ‘INCORRUPTIBLE AEON’ —> as an ‘OPINION’ in the below:
“… For he will not now possess holy souls to send them down again into the world, except those only which are of his substance, that is, those into which he has breathed. But the consummation [of all things] will take place, when the whole besprinkling of the spirit of light is gathered together, and is carried off to form an INCORRUPTIBLE AEON. Such are the OPINIONS which prevail among these persons, by whom, like the Lernaean hydra, a many-headed beast has been generated from the school of Valentinus.” (St. Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Chapter XXX:14 – 15)
Yes, please note ‘carefully’ that St. Irenaeous of Lyons does NOT acknowledge ‘a different version’ of the concept of an INCORRUPTIBLE (or Eternal, Immortal) AEON’ in his discussion in his book above (as you may read it in ‘full’ and ‘realize’ it too) —-> which is greatly in contrast to the ‘concept of Aeons or Ages’ as illustrated in Point a) earlier of which HE ACKNOWLEDGED it to be THEOLOGICALLY CORRECT (and we preach this ‘same’ Biblical concept only). This is an important and irrefutable point, can you see it?
The phrase ‘Incorruptible Aeon’ (which is their theological point in this, while the rest being ‘some dirty blasphemous story telling of Gnostic sects) itself points to the Greek Word ‘Aeon or Age in English’ to mean an ‘unknown or limited time period only but NOT forever’.
Indeed, because the Greek Word ‘Aeon’ by itself only means ‘age’ (a limited unknown time period), the efforts of the Gnostics is clear in that they tried to make up ‘strange stories’ to ‘make a particular Aeon or Age, say ‘Zoe Aionios’ or others by assigning names or ‘beings to them’ —> to make it ‘Immortal or Incorruptible’ which is a form of Idolatry (conceptually) as it challenges God Alone Who has Pure Immortality or Deathless-ness, ‘Athanasian’ —> while the rest of creation is only endowed with ‘age (aeon)-during endurance’ by His Power —-> as 1 Timothy 6:16 Majestically Declares —-> since He did NOT give any creation Immortality yet (which is chiefly reserved for His Bride post Resurrection only – 1 Corinthians 15 with Revelation 20:4 – 6 & Luke 20:35 – 36 as well).
Can you understand the Incredible Accuracy of Holy Scripture and how our Proper exegesis to Understanding the Greek Word Aeon or Age is Important to Give Glory to God Alone?
- c) The Eternal Age Heresy
Claiming that an ‘aeon or age is eternal’ may be a HERESY.
Really?
Yes, please consider ‘Irenaeous own words below’ where he points to the ‘specific HERESY’ of calling ‘(any) aeon or age to be eternal’ (example: don’t our popular Bible translations call the ‘next age, or next aeon’ eternal as implied in their translations of Matthew 12:32 with Matthew 25:46?)
” Besides those, however, among these heretics who are Simonians, and of whom we have already spoken, a multitude of Gnostics have sprung up, and have been manifested like mushrooms growing out of the ground. I now proceed to describe the principal opinions held by them. Some of them, then, set forth a certain Aeon who never grows old, and exists in a virgin spirit: him they style Barbelos. They declare that somewhere or other there exists a certain father who cannot be named, and that he was desirous to reveal himself to this Barbelos. Then this Ennoea went forward, stood before his face, and demanded from him Prognosis (prescience). But when Prognosis had, [as was requested, ] come forth, these two asked for Aphtharsia (incorruption), which also came forth, and after that Zoe Aionios (age-during life). Barbelos, glorying in these, and contemplating their greatness, and in conception [thus formed], rejoicing in this greatness, generated light similar to it. … ” (St. Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Chapter XXIX:1)
I repeat the above, please note the following ‘heresy, carefully’:
“… heretics … multitude of Gnostics … Some of them, then, set forth a certain Aeon who never grows old… these two asked for Aphtharsia (incorruption), which also came forth, and after that Zoe Aionios (age-during life) … ” (St. Irenaeous, ‘Against Heresies’, Book I, Chapter XXIX:1)
Can you see it?
Firstly, please note that ‘Zoe Aionios’ is a similar phrase to ‘age-during life’ (popularly translated as ‘eternal life’ in Matthew 25:46).
Irenaeous is contending that the ‘Gnostic heretics’ are the one who were popularizing the ‘new idea’ that there is a ‘certain Aeon’ or ‘certain Age’ —-> ‘which never grows old’ (i.e. is ‘eternal’). Shocked?
Notice that the ‘Aeon which never grows old’ —-> is said to have been equivalent to have attained ‘Aphtharsia (incorruption)’ which is IMMORTALITY (as this word is different and is found in 1 Corinthians 15) —-> meaning so clearly that there is NO such thing as an ‘eternal age’ but that ‘each age has both a beginning and end’ (being time periods, implied).
Yes, the Gnostic heretics are the ones who introduced the concept of an ‘eternal age’ which ‘never grows old’ as they say, it has attained ‘Aphtharsia (incorruption or immortality)’. The rest is their ‘story telling’ with ‘fabled beings representing these ages or aeons’.
It doesn’t end there as these Gnostics tried further to ‘corrupt’ the Biblical Concept of ‘Zoe Aionios’ (as it’s found in Matthew 25:46) by claiming that ‘Zoe Aionios’ (this ‘aeon or age’) also seeked out to be ‘eternal’ by requesting this ‘Aphtharsia (incorruption or immortality)’ likewise.
Isn’t it crisp clear from this discussion in ‘Irenaeous’ own words’ that ‘Zoe Aionios’ (in Matthew 25:46) too only means ‘age-during life which is NOT endless NOR Immortal’ but that the Gnostics invented a ‘fable story’ to show ‘how Zoe Aionios’ could itself become eternal?
Yes, by usage and etymology itself it is evident here that ‘Zoe Aionios’ (Matthew 25:46) only refers to age-during life and that’s why the Gnostic error tried to be ‘smarter’ by inventing a ‘fabled story’ to show ‘how this Zoe Aionios may have attained Immoratlity (Aphtharsia) so that their converts may be ‘swayed to this’ so called ‘hidden truth’.
In light of all this, our ‘popular Christianity’ which preaches or translates ‘Zoe Aionios’ to mean ‘eternal life’ instead of ‘age-during life’ may be guilty of following the Gnostic error in this concept (minus the ‘fable stories’). An Irony indeed.
The Bible Teaches that ONLY God has ‘Deathless-ness’ (athanasian) being Immortal and that His Power to sustain the rest of things is to the ‘age (aeon) only’ so that ‘NONE of the current things will last eternally’ (can you see the real meaning and purpose of His ‘age-during Power’?) as these ‘former things’ will eventually pass away (and NOT last forever, Isaiah 65:17, Revelation 21:4):
“Who [God] only is having Immortality [Athanasian], dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age [aeon]-during! Amen.” – apostle Paul (1 Timothy 6:16, YLT)
Yes, God’s Power or Honour is ‘highlighted’ (NOT limited) to the ‘age (aeon)’ in Holy Scripture because these ‘created things’ are to last to ‘that particular age (aeon) only’ – an incredible accuracy in Inspired Writing pointing to this Truth. In like manner, God of Israel does NOT mean that He is the God for Israel only but is highlighted thus for ‘His Specific Purposes toward them’ (Romans 3:29).
For example, God’s Power is highlighted as ‘His age-during Power’ (in 1 Timothy 6:16), because it refers to the current ‘created things’ lasting only ’till the end of this age only’ after which the ‘fire will consume it’ (2 Peter 3:7 – 10) and a New Heavens and a New Earth will be Made thereafter (2 Peter 3:13).
3) What if I don' want to believe in Christ now?
How to Understand the Great Denial due to Unbelief or Lawlessness in Matthew 7:20 - 23 with Matthew 25:1 - 13 correctly?
Context: The phrase 'I never knew you' Spoken on the 'Day' (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:12 - linking these together) when He Returns on His White Horse links this to His 'Marriage' (toward His 'Virgins' or those 'who call Him Lord, Lord').
Is this Timeline correct?
Yes, consider Irenaeous in 'his own words' below toward 'those who REFUSE to BELIEVE in Lord JESUS CHRIST now' where they 'miss' His Marriage (and hence 'miss' the First Resurrection as well, implied in Revelation 19 & Revelation 20 which ties up to this Timeline when these events occur):
"If, however, thou wilt NOT BELIEVE in Him, and wilt flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in thee who didst NOT OBEY, but not in Him who called [thee]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the MARRIAGE, but they who did NOT OBEY Him DEPRIVED themselves of the ROYAL SUPPER... " (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXXIX, Point 3)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
Those who did NOT believe and did NOT obey may end up in 'age-during chastisement' next at the 'end of the age too' (as God Wills):
"... He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to AVOID being SUBJECT to Him. SUBMISSION to God is eternal [AGE-DURING] REST, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal [AGE-DURING] REST, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing.
Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the JUST JUDGMENT of God.
For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this TEMPORAL LIGHT, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy.] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal [AGE-DURING] light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal [AGE-DURING] darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that" (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXXIX, Point 4)
Please notice carefully that Irenaeous implies that this 'age-during light' of REST is a TEMPORAL light proving irrefutably that the translation of 'age-during' is CORRECT in the above and 'not eternal'. Can you see it?
Do note that the Context of Point 4 above is Written next whilst discussing Point 3 which Pointed out earlier refers to the Judgment of 'unbelievers and believers who do NOT obey' to NOT be part of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (His Marriage on the Day of His Return).
So, the Judgment in Point 4 above refers to them 'missing' out on this Promised 'age-during Rest' (referring to the rest on the Last or 7th Day of this current age, AGE1 itself, Hebrews 4:6) ---> which is reserved ONLY for Sheepfold1, the 'believers in the Faith of Jesus Christ' (Revelation 20:4 - 6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 17, Luke 20:35 - 36) as the 'Resurrection of the Just' too (Luke 14:14) as discussed in previous write-ups that Irenaeous sets forth this belief too clearly.
It is interesting to note from the above that
SUBMISSION to God is eternal [AGE-DURING] REST = in the case of this TEMPORAL LIGHT.
Can you SEE it?
eternal [AGE-DURING] REST = this TEMPORAL LIGHT
More accurately,
[AGE-DURING] REST = this TEMPORAL LIGHT = on the LAST DAY of this Age which the 'rest of the dead have NO Hope' to attain this First Resurrection & Sabbath Rest (1 Thessalonians 4:13, Revelation 20:5).
4) Universal Salvation
Did St. Irenaeous of Lyons Understand Universal Salvation?
Yes, Here are three Irrefutable Examples in Irenaeous' 'own words'.
(i) Context of 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28.
How did St. Irenaeous understand 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28 in the Context of 'All [Created] things' including the ENEMIES (1 Corinthians 15:25- 26) being made SUBJECT to Him eventually (1 Corinthians 15:27 - 28) in the END, 1 Corinthians 15:24 (which is 'not' Done yet but NOTHING will be left un-subject to Him when that happens, as per Hebrews 2:8)?
Please consider - the first step in 'SUBJECTING all things to Him' is their 'acknowledgement of Him' - please note that the 'all things' includes 'the enemy, demons and the apostate angels too' - Shocked? as per Irenaeous 'own words' below:
"... Father making ALL THINGS SUBJECT to Him; while He RECEIVED TESTIMONY from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from APOSTATE SPIRITS and DEMONS, from the ENEMY, and LAST of all, from DEATH itself. But the Son, ADMINISTERING ALL THINGS for the Father, works from the BEGINNING even to the END, and without Him no man can attain the KNOWLEDGE of God ..." (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter VI, Point 7)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
Note: Knowing this is considered 'knowledge of God'.
So, in the above Irenaeous clearly acknowledges that the SUBJECTION of ALL THINGS to Him refers to the subjection of 'all created things' to Him including the enemy too (though it is not done in full yet, agreeing to Hebrews 2:8 as well) and it BEGINS with 'all created things' (including His enemies, demons and apostate spirits too) ---> who must RECEIVE His TESTIMONY eventually (as it is implied in the above - please read the passage 'carefully' to 'realize' this).
Can anything remain unsubjected to God throughout eternity (e.g. as the example of eternal Hell claims)?
No, according to Irenaeos:
"... Neither the nature of ANY CREATED THING, therefore, nor the weakness of the flesh, can prevail against the WILL of GOD. For God is NOT SUBJECT to CREATED THINGS, but CREATED THINGS to God; and ALL THINGS yield OBEDIENCE to HIS WILL. Wherefore also the Lord declares, "The things which are impossible with men, are possible with God." ... so also now, although SOME, NOT knowing the power and promise of God, may OPPOSE their own SALVATION, deeming it impossible for God, who RAISES up the DEAD; to have power to confer upon them [the 'dead'] eternal [AGE-DURING] duration, yet the scepticism of men of this stamp shall NOT render the faithfulness of God of none effect." (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter V, Point 2)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
Please note carefully that Irenaeous is not just declaring the Subjection of All Created things back to God eventually (in the above) ---> to OBEY His WILL eventually ----> but is also setting forth to include 'the wicked too' (e.g. those who 'oppose their own salvation') --->
Yes, from the above Irenaeous clearly implies the following meaning:
ANY CREATED THING ---> WILL SUBJECT in OBEDIENCE to HIS WILL eventually (as Irenaeous claims, in agreement with the Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28 too).
This Promise includes even 'some' ---> who NOT knowing the power and promise of God ---> and may even OPPOSE their own SALVATION ----> to be 'Raised from the Dead' (i.e. get a 'resurrected flesh') ---> to have power to confer upon them eternal [AGE-DURING] duration being bestowed upon them too ---> which will HAPPEN EVENTUALLY because ----> scepticism of men of this stamp shall NOT render the faithfulness of God of none effect (in agreement to Romans 3:3 - 4).
Can you understand the Deep Meaning intended here?
Irenaeous clearly points that eventually ALL Creation will be SUBJECT to Him (including those who 'oppose their own salvation now') and when a formerly disobedient 'spirit of a man' (i.e. 'the dead', 1 Peter 3:18 - 20 or 1 Peter 4:5 - 6) is SUBJECT to Him, an AGE-DURING Duration of life in a 'resurrected flesh' awaits these 'dead men'.
So, it is implied that the 'wicked' remain in their 'death state' (age-during fire or equivalent) to the 'age' as long as 'they refuse to SUBMIT to Him' and when they SUBMIT to Him eventually (which is Prophesied as Inevitable by Irenaeous' in the above agreeing to 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28 as well), it is thus inevitable that they get bestowed [AGE-DURING] duration for their 'continuance of existence' (in the "flesh" - implied from the phrase being 'raised from the dead' in the above, context).
This claim is of SALVATION toward THE DEAD to mean their 'continuance existence in the flesh to be set forth' is clearly seen in Irenaeous' own words in his previous book (setting the pace for the argument above, context agreement):
"... who in the last times sent His Son, and conferred SALVATION upon His own handiwork-that is, the SUBSTANCE of FLESH. Arranging, then, in another book [Book 5], the rest of the words of the Lord ..." (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XLI, Point 4)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
So, it is clear that:
SALVATION = Resurrecting the Dead in the SUBSTANCE of FLESH.
And so, in the previous claim:
OPPOSE their own SALVATION = The Dead NOT being raised yet in the SUBSTANCE of FLESH.
The Context of SALVATION in this 'raising of the dead' points to the 'second resurrection of the wicked to life' (the 'Made Alive part' as apostle Paul echoed as the Hope to the wicked too, Acts 24:15, 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22) which comes only AFTER their SECOND DEATH being 'resurrected for Judgment first' in Gehenna or Lake of Fire prior (John 5:28 - 29, Daniel 12:2, Revelation 20:11 - 15).
This explains further the Infamous claim by Irenaeous which is often 'misunderstood' to mean 'annihilation of the wicked' (below).
The Wicked – NOT Granted AUTOMATIC Continuance of Life to the ‘ages of Ages’ & beyond (implied).
“… But he who shall REJECT it, and prove himself UNGRATEFUL to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons].
And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves UNGRATEFUL towards Him: “If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? ” indicating that those who, in this brief TEMPORAL LIFE, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly NOT RECEIVE from Him length of days for ever and ever [to the Aeons of the Aeons].” (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, ‘Against Heresies’, Book II, Chapter XXXIV, second part of Point 3)
How to understand it correctly?
Please note that a comparison is made toward 'this brief TEMPORAL LIFE' in regards to 'which life' is being Spoken of by our Blessed Lord toward the Wicked in the above when He Asks, 'If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?'
So, since the 'brief temporal life' of the wicked prior was on earth in the 'flesh', it is understood that these wicked dead (called 'the dead' in 1 Peter 4:5, Revelation 20:11 - 15) on Judgment Day return to being 'the dead' after their 'resurrected body for judgment' (John 5:28 - 29) perishes in Gehenna or Lake of Fire where only the 'body + soul' is destroyed, so they return to be 'the dead' (Matthew 10:28) living only in the 'spirit' thereafter (1 Peter 4:6, 1 Corinthians 5:5).
It doesn't end there as Irenaeous (seeing the Aeons of the Aeons continuity to be a reality only after the 'age-during Judgment first') ---> sets forth the following argument next, that if the 'wicked spirit' still REJECTS Him and proves UNGRATEFUL still, then ---> it shall justly NOT RECEIVE from Him length of days to the ages of the Ages [to the Aeons of the Aeons] ---> indicating NOT receiving SALVATION --> which Irenaeous points to meaning ---> These 'wicked' (spirits) post age-during Judgment or Aeonian Judgment in the Lake of Fire ---> NOT receiving the 'existence and continuance' ---> which refers to Resurrection from the Dead in the SUBSTANCE of FLESH ---> opposing their own SALVATION by their own choice ---> as long as they choose to willfully 'not subject' themselves to Him.
So, it is clear that the wicked do NOT cease to exist in the Lake of Fire but live in their spirit-state (1 Peter 4:6, being 'saved in the spirit state after the destruction of their flesh' - 1 Corinthians 5:5) where the 'destruction in the flesh post their first resurrection for Judgment' (John 5:28 - 29) only refers to their 'body + soul' (or flesh) being destroyed (Matthew 10:28).
Hence Irenaeous is implying that 'Salvation' (referring to the resurrection of the flesh and continuing in existence in it) is denied to the wicked to the Aeons of the Aeons after the Aeonian chastisement in fire (Matthew 25:46) so as long as they 'refuse God'. These still exist in their spirit state but it doesn't last 'forever' like this either as in the same breath Irenaeous also explained earlier that ANY CREATED THING and ALL CREATED THING will eventually SUBJECT itself to God which implies that this SALVATION must reach them too eventually.
(ii) MERCY to All
"... Mercy Triumphs over Judgment" - apostle James (James 2:13, NASB)
How did Irenaeous Understand apostle Paul's Last Word on Judgment - which is 'MERCY to ALL eventually (in Romans 11:32)?'
Irenaeous does NOT speak of 'any availability' NOR does he refer to the 'all' in Romans 11:32 to refer to 'believers only or the sheep only' but also INCLUSIVE of the DISOBEDIENT too - Shocked? So was I when I read the following (which PROVES the CONTEXT of UNIVERSAL SALVATION for ALL MEN true when Romans 11:32 is quoted), as Irenaeous himself APPROVES it as follows:
"... Just as the physician is proved by his patients, so is God also revealed through MEN. And therefore Paul declares, "For God hath concluded ALL in UNBELIEF, that He [God] may have MERCY upon ALL; " not saying this in reference to spiritual Aeons, but to MAN, who had been DISOBEDIENT to God, and being CAST OFF from IMMORTALITY, then OBTAINED MERCY, receiving through the Son of God that adoption which is [ACCOMPLISHED] by Himself... " (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, ‘Against Heresies’, Book III, Chapter XX, second part of Point 3)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html
Please note carefully that Irenaeous speaks of MEN (who are sick generally being SINNERS, as the Context of the Great Physician is set forth first).
Next. Irenaeous Speaks of the 'Mercy to All' ---> not as an offer, nor as an availability or any part on the 'will of men' (agreeing to Romans 9:15 - 16) though popular theology errs otherwise greatly in this - Can you see it? ----> but as an ACCOMPLISHED Fact evidenced by the phrase 'OBTAINED MERCY' toward those 'CAST OFF from IMMORTALITY' due to His Work Alone.
In other words, Irenaeous does NOT discuss any 'availability or the will of man' when quoting Romans 11:32 proving that these are irrelevant to the context of MERCY which depends on GOD's WILL ALONE (Romans 9:15 - 16).
Next, Irenaeous clearly sets forth the SAME Prophetic Tone in Inspired Scripture by apostle Paul in that ALL in UNBELIEF or those who have been DISOBEDIENT to God will first be CAST OFF from IMMORTALITY (enduring the AGE-DURING Judgment in Gehenna Fire, Matthew 25:46) where their MORTAL parts of the BODY and SOUL will be DESTROYED (Matthew 10:28) but these will eventually been shown MERCY, not as an offer or availability within an Aeon but as a REALITY in that they will OBTAIN that MERCY, Romans 11:32 (which Triumphs and ENDS that afterlife Judgment Sentence too, James 2:13) as even the Infamous Sibyline Prophecies (in link below) clearly records in agreement to all this as well:
The Jewish-Christian Sibyline Oracle Prophecies are Important because exegesis regarding Prophecy of Scripture is NOT of any private interpretation and thus must agree with the Earliest Known established Reliable Prophecy such as This (in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20).
(iii) Context of Colossians 1:16 - 20.
Christ Centered Universalists claim that Salvation is by Lord Jesus Christ's Work Alone toward 'All Created things' eventually (Colossians 1:16) where through His Blood on His Cross He will cause the Final Two Way Reconciliation Prophesied Majestically in Scripture toward this same 'All [Created] things' (in Colossians 1:20).
Did Irenaeous Understand Colossians 1:16 - 20 in the SAME way?
Yes, to quote:
"Christ, who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fulness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities." (Fragment XXXIX, FRAGMENTS FROM THE LOST WRITINGS OF IRENAEUS)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-fragments.html
It is self explanatory in the above, I repeat with Emphasis:
"Christ, who was called the Son of God BEFORE the AGES [Aeons], was manifested in the fulness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the END of TIME He shall come to DO AWAY with ALL EVIL, and to RECONCILE ALL [Created] THINGS in order that there may be an END of ALL IMPURITIES." (Fragment XXXIX, FRAGMENTS FROM THE LOST WRITINGS OF IRENAEUS)
We 'Understand' Colossians 1:16 - 20 the SAME way as Irenaeous describes above.
Blessed be Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the World (1 John 4:14)!
Peace to you.
Two Resurrections for the Wicked - First Resurrection vs General Resurrection - Deep Secrets from Irenaeous and Justin Martyr
Judgment Evil is eye for an eye (The Old Testament teaches that).
Overcoming evil is by Good (Romans 12:21).
"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psalm 37:30, KJV)
Judging Evil (Isaiah 3:11, Galatians 6:7, Hebrews 9:27) is followed by Overcoming Evil in the Lake of Fire (Romans 12:21, Matthew 5:43 - 44, Time Order implied even in Old Testament vs New Testament order, Malachi 3:2).
The Gehenna or Lake of Fire's "Kolasin Aionion" (Matthew 25:46) is two fold (Retribution, Isaiah 3:11 followed by Purification, Malachi 3:2).
To not punish evil is not justice (Isaiah 3:11, Galatians 6:7, Hebrews 9:27). The New Testament commands us to exhibit "overcoming evil" on earth (shadow) since that's the final part (in God's Judgment, the "Mercy Triumphing and ending Judgment Part" - James 2:13, "Mercy to All eventually", Romans 11:32).
Example: The Blood of the Martyrs will be Avenged (Revelation 6:10) in the Day of His Wrath (Revelation 6:17, Romans 1:18).
God does NOT avenge only Lord Jesus Christ's Blood and because of that the sin of the World may be taken away, 1 John 2:2 in its own times, not at the same time & not immediately, 1 Timothy 2:6 (post Judgment for the wicked as Mercy only Triumphs after 'Judgment with no Mercy is endured first' - James 2:13, John 1:29).
What you are writing is Biblical and it refers to the Overcoming Evil part.
The Day of the Wrath and Judgment exists too and God knows whom to Heal (as Luke 4:25 - 26) and whom NOT to heal (Luke 4:27) which causes some to be 'pissed off by God's Judgment' (Luke 4:28 - 30) but God "Knows" who is really sick and who is willfully sinning (e. g. Hebrews 10:26).
The 'Pharisees' were 'sick in sin' too but Lord Jesus Christ doesn't say that they won't be Judged at all.
In fact Proper Biblical Exegesis denies neither afterlife Judgment nor Redemption by Mercy thereafter.
For example, the 'sick' Pharisees are condemned to "Gehenna first" (Matthew 23:33, Matthew 12:32, Matthew 10:28) but are hinted to enter His Kingdom of the Heavens thereafter (Matthew 21:31) eventually (Matthew 5:19) but NOT inherit it at all (1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11) but remain in the 'outside the city or kingdom of God regions as long as God Wills' (Revelation 21:27).
Conclusion
When we die, only believers in Faith of Jesus Christ do not come under any afterlife Judgment (John 5:24) because we have already been judged on earth prior in our temporal life (Hebrews 12:6 - 8, 1 Corinthians 11:32, Deuteronomy 8:5, Job 5:17 - 18).
Is this entire exegesis my private interpretation?
No. Please consider St. Irenaeous of Lyons and St. Justin Martyr themselves implying this 'order of Retributive Judgment followed by Restoration Judgment':
1) First Step - Current Afterlife Judgments when we die in our souls (Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16:19 - 31, Isaiah 3:11).
(i) Righteous
For the righteous, after they die, Irenaeous says that their SOULS go to an INTERMEDIATE PLACE (e.g. 'Abraham's Bosom' in Luke 16:19 - 31 or 'Paradise' in Luke 23:43) where there is NEVER JUDGMENT (or 'no' afterlife Judgments as Christ Revealed in John 5:24):
"For it is manifest that those acts which are DEEMED RIGHTEOUS are performed in bodies. Either, therefore all SOULS will of necessity pass into the INTERMEDIATE PLACE, and there will NEVER be a JUDGMENT; or bodies, too, which have participated in righteousness, will attain to the place of enjoyment, along with the SOULS which have in like manner participated, if indeed righteousness is powerful enough to bring thither those substances which have participated in it. And then the DOCTRINE concerning the RESURRECTION of BODIES which WE BELIEVE ..." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 2, Chapter XXIX, Point 2)
(ii) Wicked
Afterlife Judgments are Real as Justin quotes the 'essence of thought in regard to these ancients who did speak in like manner in regards to this fact'; please consider Justin's own words below:
"But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal [age-during] punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), ... - let these persuade you that even AFTER DEATH SOULS are in a STATE of SENSATION; and those who are seized and cast about by the SPIRITS of the DEAD, whom all call daemoniacs or madmen; and what you repute as oracles, both of Amphilochus, Dodana, Pytho, and as many other such as exist; and the opinions of your authors, Empedocles and Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates, and the pit of Homer, and the descent of Ulysses to inspect these things, and all that has been UTTERED of a LIKE KIND ..." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, CHAPTER XVIII -- PROOF OF IMMORTALITY AND THE RESURRECTION)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
Justin confirms Luke 16:19 - 31 as literal and an immediate Judgment now after Death:
Justin affirms their "Idea of the afterlife spirit world" ------> in his words, "to inspect these things, and all that has been UTTERED of a LIKE KIND" -----> referring to "AFTER DEATH SOULS are in a STATE of SENSATION; and those who are seized and cast about by the SPIRITS of the DEAD".
Justin confirms that the "age-during punishment" is at the end of the age post 'resurrection of judgment' (John 5:28 - 29) toward the wicked before His Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11 - 15) ----> in his words, "and eternal [age-during] punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked),".
Please note the following separation in Justin's words above:
"But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal [age-during] punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked),"
MEANS
Temporal Afterlife Judgment - NOW:
'But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived' = "AFTER DEATH SOULS are in a STATE of SENSATION; and those who are seized and cast about by the SPIRITS of the DEAD".
Followed by the Final Judgment - At the End of the Age:
"and eternal [age-during] punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked),"
Yes, Justin affirms that upon death, the SOULS of the "good" are in blessed abodes while the SOULS of the "wicked" are in punishment abodes:
"... Doctrine of Plato; and while we say that there will be a burning up of all, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of the Stoics: and while WE AFFIRM that the SOULS of the WICKED, being endowed with SENSATION even AFTER DEATH, are PUNISHED, and that those [SOULS] of the GOOD being delivered from punishment spend a BLESSED EXISTENCE, ..." (Justin Martyr, CHAPTER XX -- HEATHEN ANALOGIES TO CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
2) Second Step - Final Afterlife Judgment in the Lake of Fire or Gehenna in a resurrected body for those still unrepentant and wicked (John 5:28 - 29, Revelation 20:11 - 15, Matthew 10:28, Galatians 6:7)
3) Third Step - Restoration and the Reconciliation of All Things with Mercy Triumphing and ending afterlife Judgments but only after the 'judgment with no mercy is endured first by some - James 2:13' (Acts 3:21, Colossians 1:20, Malachi 3:2).
"... Proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [FUTURE] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to GATHER ALL THINGS in ONE," and to RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and THINGS UNDER the EARTH, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, ..." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book I, Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World, Point 1).
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html
Please note this phrase 'carefully' in the above -----> "to RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE" -----> including the THINGS UNDER the EARTH or in HELL or LAKE of FIRE or GEHENNA or HADES even now ---> which proves Universal Salvation for "All Men" eventually ----> because the phrase "RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH" ------> cannot refer to the first 'resurrected flesh for Judgment toward the wicked' (John 5:28 - 29) -----> simply because in Irenaeous' own words, during Judgment, the 'first resurrection of the wicked for Judgment' is with their 'OLD sinful flesh*' -------> (and NOT 'a new flesh' as it is described above toward the WHOLE or ALL Human Race eventually proving that for the wicked) -----> there must be a 'second resurrection to obtain this HOPE of a NEW FLESH' (Acts 24:15) as part of the being MADE ALIVE part of Christ's Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:21) which applies to ALL MEN (1 Corinthians 15:22) including them too.
*(Point 10b later where only the righteous' Old Flesh is HEALED and the wicked remain in IDENTICAL BODIES for JUDGMENT without being Healed or Restored to Sinless-ness, implied).
This is how St. Irenaeous of Lyons himself UNDERSTANDS the Universal Salvation part pertaining to ALL MEN PROPHETICALLY in his 'own words' from the above (agreeing PERFECTLY to 1 Timothy 2:4 - KJV, 1 Timothy 4:10 and the Sibyline Oracles too - in obedience to 2 Peter 1:20 as well):
"to GATHER ALL THINGS in ONE," (Ephesians 1:9 - 10) = "and to RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE" (in the Context of All Men, as John 17:2 - 3 means this too as part of God making ALL things NEW in the Context of ALL MEN too, Revelation 21:5).
How do we know, that the above is for the FUTURE, hence a PROPHETIC Statement?
Please note that Irenaeous quotes the Context of Ephesians 1:9 - 10 first, i.e. to 'Gather All things in One' which in Ephesians 1:10 itself records as the 'dispensation of the fulness of the times - plural,' (YLT) ---> where these PLURAL - TIMES are in the FUTURE ---> because do note the word '[FUTURE]' in the translation above itself when Speaking of this.
Indeed, these things will be accomplished by Him in the 'FUTURE Manifestation plural-TIMES' by Him achieving His Will to 'Gather All things in One in Him' ---> where a special highlight is the Context of ALL MEN or 'every human being ever created' ----> where Irenaeous says Prophetically that it will cause ALL MEN to be MADE ALIVE by Christ in a NEW RESURRECTED FLESH ('sinless', implied in agreement to 1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22, Romans 5:18 - 19) ---> in Irenaeous' words, 'RAISE UP ANEW ALL FLESH of the WHOLE HUMAN RACE' (eventually).
Since we understand now that SALVATION refers to being RESURRECTED in a SINLESS FLESH to LIVE, a 'second resurrection' for the 'wicked must thus be in place after the second death' (though the phrase 'second resurrection for the wicked' is NOT explicitly stated in Scripture). The Infamous Verse below which speaks of ALL MEN to be SAVED points to this HOPE too:
"Who [God] WILL HAVE ALL MEN to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." - apostle Paul (1 Timothy 2:4, KJV)
"according as Thou didst give to Him authority over ALL FLESH, that -- ALL that Thou hast GIVEN to Him -- He may GIVE to them life age-during;" - Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:2, YLT)
[God] WILL HAVE ALL MEN to be SAVED (1 Timothy 2:4) = ALL MEN will eventually be Resurrected in a SINLESS FLESH (John 17:2).
Yes, Irenaeous hints that the JUST JUDGMENT of God makes ALL THINGS ----> GOOD (including the WICKED - please note this word 'carefully' in the below - in 'his own words'):
" has the Lord said: "Judge not, that ye be not judged: for with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged." [The meaning is] not certainly that we should not find fault with sinners, nor that we should consent to those who act wickedly; but that we should not pronounce an unfair judgment on the dispensations of God, inasmuch as He has Himself made provision that all things shall turn out for good, in a way consistent with justice." (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXX, Point 3)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
I repeat, with EMPHASIS in [brackets] too for clarity:
"... has the Lord said: "Judge not, that ye be not judged: for with what judgment ye shall judge, ye shall be judged." [The meaning is] NOT certainly that we should NOT find fault with SINNERS, nor that we should consent to THOSE who act WICKEDLY; but that we should NOT PRONOUNCE an UNFAIR JUDGMENT on the DISPENSATIONS of God, inasmuch as HE has Himself MADE PROVISION that ALL [Created] THINGS SHALL TURN out for GOOD, in a WAY CONSISTENT with JUSTICE. ..." (Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXX, Point 3)
Isn't it obvious that Irenaeous is explaining that "Pronouncing" the "Fair Judgment of God" -----> toward SINNERS and the WICKED -----> includes understanding the "dispensations (time)" God has Prepared ----> to make ALL CREATED THINGS (including these SINNERS and WICKED aforementioned - Context) to be GOOD again -----> (proving that EVIL will cease to exist eventually) ----> in a way which is CONSISTENT with JUSTICE.
Shouldn't we preach the SAME about the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD?
Please note that the 'first resurrection of Judgment for the wicked' (John 5:28 - 29) in "age-during fire" of Gehenna (Matthew 10:28) or Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11 - 15) is with their OLD BODIES being REUNITED with THEIR SPIRIT (and is NOT Referring to the Second Resurrection of the Wicked which is implied or referred to earlier in a FLESH which is NEW, the NEW FLESH being DIFFERENT as God Makes ALL THINGS NEW - Revelation 21:5 - 8, which is understood to be post this Judgment in the Lake of Fire in these set of Verses too - implied - as God Wills - discussed prior) as Justin declares below to this Point "accurately" (a 'fine detail'):
" WE say that the SAME thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the WICKED in the SAME BODIES UNITED AGAIN to THEIR SPIRITS which are now to undergo everlasting [AGE-DURING] punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm." (Justin Martyr, CHAPTER VIII -- CHRISTIANS CONFESS THEIR FAITH IN GOD, First Apology)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html
First Resurrection of the Wicked for Final Judgment (John 5:28 -29) = "WICKED in the SAME BODIES UNITED AGAIN to THEIR SPIRITS which are now to undergo everlasting [AGE-DURING] punishment" (Justin Martyr)
4) Irenaeous - Paternal Light of God - True Faith - Christ SAVES from HELL itself
Irenaeos affirms that the Christian Universalist Context of 'All Things' to refer to 'All Created things' is right and it implies the SALVATION of MEN even from HELL or the 'regions under the earth' too.
"Truly, then, the Scripture declared, which says, "First of all believe that there is one God, who has established ALL THINGS, and completed them, and having caused that from what had no being, ALL THINGS should come into EXISTENCE: "He who contains ALL THINGS, and is Himself contained by no one.
Rightly also has Malachi said among the prophets: "Is it not one God who hath established us? Have we not all one Father? " In accordance with this, too, does the apostle say, "There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and in us all." Likewise does the Lord also say: "ALL THINGS are delivered to Me by My Father; " manifestly by Him who MADE ALL THINGS; for He did not deliver to Him the things of another, but His own. But in ALL THINGS [it is implied that] NOTHINGS has been KEPT BACK [from Him], and for this reason the same person is the Judge of the living and THE DEAD;
"having the key of David: He shall Open, and no man shall shut: He shall shut, and no man shall open." For no one was able, either in heaven or in earth, or UNDER THE EARTH, to OPEN the BOOK of the FATHER, or to behold Him, with the EXCEPTION of the LAMB who was slain, and who redeemed us with His own Blood, receiving POWER over ALL THINGS from the same God who made ALL THINGS by the Word, and adorned them by [His] Wisdom, when "the Word was made flesh; "that even as the Word of God had the SOVEREIGNTY in the heavens, so also might He have the SOVEREIGNTY in earth, inasmuch as [He was] a righteous man, "who did no sin, neither was there found guile in His mouth; "
and that He might have the pre-eminence over THOSE THINGS which are UNDER THE EARTH, He Himself being made "the first-begotten of the dead; " and that ALL THINGS, as I have ALREADY SAID, might behold THEIR KING; and that the PATERNAL LIGHT might meet with and rest upon the flesh of our Lord, and come to us from His resplendent flesh, and that thus MAN might attain to IMMORTALITY, having been invested with the PATERNAL LIGHT." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XX, Point 2)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
Please note these words 'carefully' from the above which hints on Christ Saving from HELL, often termed as the 'regions under the earth' (now it's HADES' punishment regions but in the future this can refer to the LAKE of FIRE regions):
'THOSE THINGS which are UNDER THE EARTH' ---->and that ALL THINGS ---> as I have ALREADY SAID, might behold their THEIR KING; and that the PATERNAL LIGHT -----> 'that thus MAN might attain to IMMORTALITY'.
Deep, isn't it?
Bonus: How about the Sons of God vs Sons of the Devil distinction?
The 'sons of the God' vs 'sons of the Devil' argument is NOT a permanent one but one referred to TEMPORARILY due to one's 'choice & action & faith'. This is NOT an eternal state as our eternal Hell proponents profess as Saint Irenaeous himself refutes this ancient heresy as follows (which proves that 'all are still His Children but some have rebelled'), to quote:
"... According to nature, then -that is, according to creation, so to speak-we are ALL sons of God, because we have ALL been CREATED by GOD. But with RESPECT to OBEDIENCE and DOCTRINE we are NOT all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are SONS and angels of the DEVIL, because they do the works of the devil. And that such is the case He has declared in Isaiah: "I have begotten and brought up CHILDREN, but they have REBELLED against Me." And again, where He says that these CHILDREN are ALIENS: "Strange CHILDREN have lied unto Me." According to NATUE, then, they are [His] CHILDREN, because they have been so CREATED; but with regard to THEIR WORKS, they are NOT His children." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XLI, Point 2)
"For as, among men, those sons who DISOBEY their fathers, being DISINHERITED, are STILL THEIR SONS in the course of NATURE, but by LAW are DISINHERITED, for they do NOT become the HEIRS of their natural parents; so in the SAME WAY is it with God,-those who do NOT OBEY Him being DISINHERITED by Him, have CEASED to be His sons. Wherefore they CANNOT RECEIVE His INHERITANCE..." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XLI, Point 3)
The Context in which Holy Scripture is clear as Irenaeous implies the Paternal Love of the Father that ALL are HIS SONS due to being CREATED by HIM, hence HIS CHILDREN.
However, in regards to 'obedience and doctrine', the 'sons of the Devil are those who disobey and hence do NOT inherit His Kingdom' (1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10, e.g. may just 'enter only' to live in some OUTSIDE permitted regions of the 'kingdom of the heavens' and NOT the heavens, please take note 'carefully', being the 'least' due to Command-Breaking Matthew 5:19) vs in Contrast, 'His Sons of obedience & doctrine' INHERIT His Kingdom (e.g. highest positions such as KING & PRIESTS too, Revelation 1:6, Ephesians 3:6 and beyond!, 1 Corinthians 2:9 being the 'Great' in His Kingdom of the Heavens too, Matthew 5:19).
5) Justin Martyr
Justin Martyr affirms this Truth of Salvation toward ALL MEN eventually - both the righteous and the wicked
" did the Saviour come, as He says, "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Since, then, the flesh has been proved to be valuable in the sight of God, and glorious above all His works, it would very justly be saved by Him. We must meet, therefore, those who say, that even though it be the special handiwork of God, and beyond all else valued by Him, it would not immediately follow that it has the promise of the resurrection.
Yet is it not absurd, that that which has been produced with such circumstance, and which is beyond all else valuable, should be so neglected by its Maker, as to pass to nonentity? Then the sculptor and painter, if they wish the works they have made to endure, that they may win glory by them, renew them when they begin to decay; but God would so neglect His own possession and work, that it becomes annihilated, and no longer exists. Should we not call this labour in vain? As if a man who has built a house should forthwith destroy it, or should neglect it, though he sees it falling into decay, and is able to repair it: we would blame him for labouring in vain; and should we not so blame God? But not such an one is the Incorruptible,--not senseless is the Intelligence of the universe. Let the unbelieving be silent, even though they themselves do not believe.
But, in truth, He has even called the flesh to the resurrection, and promises to it everlasting life. For where He promises to save man, there He gives the promise to the flesh. For what is man but the reasonable animal composed of body and soul? Is the soul by itself man? No; but the soul of man. Would the body be called man? No, but it is called the body of man. If, then, neither of these is by itself man, but that which is made up of the two together is called man, and God has called man to life and resurrection, He has called not a part, but the whole, which is the soul and the body.
For it had its salvation from itself; so that in saving the soul, God does no great thing. For to be saved is its natural destiny, because it is a part of Himself, being His inspiration. But no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself. For he who saves a part himself, saves himself by his own means, lest he become defective in that part; and this is not the act of a good man. For not even when a man does good to his children and offspring, does one call him a good man; for even the most savage of the wild beasts do so, and indeed willingly endure death, if need be, for the sake of their cubs. But if a man were to perform the same acts in behalf of his slaves, that man would justly be called good. Wherefore the Saviour also taught us to love our enemies, since, says He, what thank have ye? So that He has shown us that it is a good work not only to love those that are begotten of Him, but also those that are without. And what He enjoins upon us, He Himself first of all does." (St. Justin Martyr, CHAPTER VIII.--DOES THE BODY CAUSE THE SOUL TO SIN? FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-resurrection.html
Can you see it?
Based on the above please consider 'carefully' the gems of Wisdom found in Justin's 'own words' above with EMPHASIS mine in [brackets above too] (re-quoted below):
(i) What is the meaning of Resurrection?
Resurrection = Soul (with Spirit) returning to the Body, to quote:
"... spirit of the dead man has returned,.. the resurrection from the dead." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 2, Chapter XXXI, Point 2)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html
"For it is manifest that those acts which are deemed righteous are performed in bodies. Either, therefore all SOULS will of necessity pass into the intermediate place, and there will never be a judgment; or bodies, too, which have participated in righteousness, will attain to the place of enjoyment, along with the SOULS which have in like manner participated, if indeed righteousness is powerful enough to bring thither those substances which have participated in it. And then the DOCTRINE concerning the RESURRECTION of BODIES which WE BELIEVE ..." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 2, Chapter XXIX, Point 2)
"If He had no need of the flesh, why did He heal it? And what is most forcible of all, He raised the dead. Why? Was it not to show what the RESURRECTION should be? How then did He RAISE the DEAD? Their SOULS or their BODIES? Manifestly BOTH... He had thus shown them that there is truly a RESURRECTION of the FLESH, wishing to show them this also, that it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE for FLESH to ascend into HEAVEN (as He had said that our dwelling-place is in heaven), "He was taken up into HEAVEN while they beheld," as He was in the FLESH." (Justin Martyr, 'On the Resurrection', CHAPTER IX.--THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST PROVES THAT THE BODY RISES)
(ii) What is the meaning of SALVATION?
"obtaining as the outcome of your faith the SALVATION of your SOULS." - apostle Peter (1 Peter 1:9, NASB)
SALVATION of your SOULS toward those 'in faith' = Resurrected to Life in the flesh without any afterlife Judgments (John 5:24).
Firstly, Justin Martyr affirms that the FLESH is SAVED when it is RESURRECTED [to sinless-ness, implied]:
" ... did the Saviour come, as He says, "I am not come to call the righteous, but SINNERS to REPENTANCE." Since, then, the FLESH has been proved to be valuable in the sight of God, and glorious above all His works, it would very justly be SAVED by Him. We must meet, therefore, those who say, that even though it [the FLESH] be the special handiwork of God, and beyond all else valued by Him, it [the FLESH] would not immediately follow that it has the promise of the RESURRECTION." (St. Justin Martyr, CHAPTER VIII.--DOES THE BODY CAUSE THE SOUL TO SIN? FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION)
(iii) Can the FLESH pass into ANNIHILATION or NON-EXISTENCE?
Justin did NOT believe in NON EXISTENCE type of ANNIHILATION of the 'Body + Soul' which is to be Destroyed in Gehenna even (Matthew 10:28) but only that the 'sin & evil' in it be gone into NON-EXISTENCE (implied as 'this sin & evil' is what is Destroyed till it ceases to exist in the Body + Soul during the Lake of Fire Judgment). Please consider:
"Yet is it not absurd, that that which has been produced with such circumstance, and which is beyond all else valuable, should be so neglected by its Maker, as to pass to NONENTITY? Then the sculptor and painter, if they wish the works they have made to endure, that they may win glory by them, RENEW THEM when they begin to DECAY; but God would so neglect His own possession and work, that it becomes ANNIHILATED, and NO longer EXISTS. Should we not call this labour in vain? As if a man who has built a house should forthwith DESTROY it, or should NEGLECT it, though he sees it falling into DECAY, and is ABLE to REPAIR it: we would blame him for labouring in vain; and should we not so blame God? But not such an one is the INCORRUPTIBLE,--NOT SENSELESS is the INTELLIGENCE of the universe. Let the unbelieving be silent, even though they themselves do not believe." (St. Justin Martyr, CHAPTER VIII.--DOES THE BODY CAUSE THE SOUL TO SIN? FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION)
It is clear in the above that Justin is using the analogy of an earthly painter where if he is able, he will RENEW that which DECAYS and likewise a man who sees his house falling into DECAY would also REPAIR it ---> in the Context of explaining the 'Salvation of the Soul' (Topic here as the paragraphs surrounding it prove - as quoted at the start of point 5).
Hence Justin Concludes that the Incorruptible God would likewise NOT Destroy the Soul into NONENTITY or NONEXISTENCE till it is ANNIHILATED and NO LONGER EXISTS (Disproving the 'Annihilation View of Hell Theory') ---> and NEITHER would God, Justin implies Who being INTELLIGENT and ABLE to both RENEW and REPAIR would cause any of His Work toward 'all souls' which are His (Ezekiel 18:4) to continue in DECAY of SIN FOREVER (Disproving the 'Eternal View of Hell Theory) ---> but rather goes on to Imply the only Rational Conclusion from Justin's Own Words in that He believes in a God Who WILL both RENEW and REPAIR ALL SOULS (be it wicked or righteous, as 'all souls truly belongs to Him', Ezekiel 18:4) despite 'death or decay' in which some must endure first (Approving the Universal Salvation View of Purgatorial Hell as it was held by St. Clement of Alexandria or even St. Gregory of Nyssa too).
Note: The 'Body + Soul' Destroyed in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28) must thus refer to 'sin and evil being completely destroyed in it' and NOT the 'non-existence of either' where Justin's own words above explains it proving that he did NOT believe in 'complete annihilation' and neither did Irenaeous either (quoted below) as some scholars err by claiming otherwise due to NOT understanding these 'fine details' (implied) in their 'own arguments':
"For since there are real men, so must there also be a real establishment (plantationem), that they vanish not away among non-existent things, but PROGRESS among those which have an ACTUAL EXISTENCE. For NEITHER is the SUBSTANCE NOR the ESSENCE of the CREATION ANNIHILATED (for Faithful and True is He Who has ESTABLISHED it), but "the FASHION of the WORLD PASSETH AWAY; " that is, THOSE THINGS among which TRANSGRESSION has OCCURRED, since MAN has grown OLD in them. And therefore this [present] FASHION has been formed TEMPORARY, God Foreknowing all things;..." (Irenaeous, Book 5, Chapter XXXVI, Point 1)
It's obvious in the above that Irenaeous points to the 'temporal age-during fashion' of things ---> which refers to 'SIN and its effects' (where 'transgression' has occurred) in such CREATION ---> which will be PROGRESSED into a NEW FASHION for the quote 'Faithful and True' ties it up to God MAKING ALL THINGS NEW (to be free from this 'former taint of sin & its effects, decay') as Revelation 21:5 Majestically Declares. Wonderful News isn't it?
(iv) Did Justin believe in the Salvation of ALL MEN?
Yes.
"For it had its SALVATION from itself; so that in SAVING the SOUL, God does no great thing. For to be saved is its natural destiny, because it is a part of Himself, being His inspiration. But no thanks are due to one who saves what is his own; for this is to save himself.
For he who SAVES a part himself, saves himself by his own means, lest he become defective in that part; and this is not the act of a good man. For not even when a man does good to HIS CHILDREN and offspring, does one call him a good man; for even the most savage of the wild beasts do so, and indeed willingly endure death, if need be, for the sake of their cubs.
But if a man were to perform the SAME ACTS in behalf of his SLAVES, that man would justly be called good. Wherefore the Saviour also taught us to LOVE our ENEMIES, since, says He, what thank have ye? So that He has shown us that it is a GOOD work not only to love THOSE that are BEGOTTEN of Him, but also THOSE that are WITHOUT [i.e. 'not' Begotten of Him, implied]. And what He enjoins upon us, He Himself FIRST of ALL DOES." (St. Justin Martyr, CHAPTER VIII.--DOES THE BODY CAUSE THE SOUL TO SIN? FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION)
Please note 'carefully' that Justin implies that God Saving 'His Own Begotten or Children is NOT a big deal'. Justin then proceeds to argue that Christ is above ALL because He Promises to Perform the SAME ACTS toward 'His Slaves' too and lastly toward HIS ENEMIES as well in the Beautifully Analogy above ---> as the only Context of this Passage is 'where the SOUL is SAVED eventually in its EXISTENCE' ----> toward becoming "RESURRECTED in the FLESH' again ----> in the Context of LOVE and GOODNESS, and 'not Judgment' ---> toward His ENEMIES too ----> yes, the Context of the passage above proves that the SAME RESURRECTION to SINLESS-NESS being Promised thus in LOVE toward ----> BOTH 'THOSE that are BEGOTTEN of Him' ----> and 'also THOSE that are WITHOUT [i.e. 'not' Begotten of Him, implied] ---> proving that this must refer to the 'not explicitly mentioned (though implied) second resurrection of the wicked' toward 'sinless-ness' ---> post the Lake of Fire Judgment (which follows after their 'first resurrection for Judgment', John 5:28 - 29 ----> and this GOOD and LOVE toward His ENEMIES, in saving 'their souls to exist' eventually in a 'resurrected sinless body' ---> will certainly come to pass, as Justin remarks in faith, 'He Himself FIRST of ALL DOES'.
6) Can Christ Save from Hades now?
According to 1 Peter 4:5 - 6 and 1 Peter 3:18 - 20, it is entirely POSSIBLE though not all may be Saved (God Alone Decides that - to be Fair for He knows 'all hearts').
In the following, Irenaeous points to this Truth (the first part) and accuses the DEVIL to have DECEIVED MARCION on (the second part) where Marcion claims that 'the righteous of old did not receive Christ's Preaching at Hades because they were suspicious of Him and so their souls continued to remain in the regions of Hades'. Please read 'carefully' to 'realize' this:
"... saying all things in direct opposition to the truth,-that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 1, Chapter XXVII, Point 3)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html
So, the TRUTH is Christ SAVED whomever that BELIEVED and RECEIVED Him in HADES (be it the righteous or wicked) though they may be sent to 'higher or lower' abodes next upon being saved with their 'souls', to quote:
(i) Christ Saved the Righteous SOULS from the Past from Hades
How did St. Irenaoeus of Lyons understand 1 Peter 3:18 - 20?
"... but IMMEDIATELY upon His expiring on the Cross, undoubtedly DEPARTED on HIGH [in His SOUL to Paradise, Luke 23:43], LEAVING His BODY to the earth. But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the PLACE where THE DEAD were, as the prophet says concerning Him: "And the Lord remembered His dead saints who slept formerly in the land of sepulture; and He DESCENDED to them, to RESCUE and SAVE them." And the Lord Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth."..." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 5, Chapter XXXI)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html
(ii) Christ Saved the Righteous SOULS from the Past from Hades with NO afterlife Judgment
"It was for this reason, too, that the Lord DESCENDED into the REGIONS BENEATH the earth, PREACHING His Advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him. Now all those believed in Him who had hope towards Him, that is, those who proclaimed His advent, and submitted to His dispensations, the RIGHTEOUS men, the prophets, and the patriarchs, to whom He REMITTED sins in the SAME way as He did to us, which sins we should NOT lay to their charge, if we would not despise the Grace of God." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXVII, Point 2)
Translation Source:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
(iii) Christ Saved the Wicked SOULS from the Past from Hades but only POST afterlife Judgment
'... the spirits in Prison' (1 Peter 3:18 - 20).
"It was for this reason, too, that the Lord DESCENDED into the REGIONS BENEATH the earth, PREACHING His Advent there also, ... For as these men [Righteous Hebrews of the Past] did not impute unto us (the Gentiles) our transgressions, which we wrought BEFORE CHRIST was MANIFESTED among us, so also it is NOT right that we should lay BLAME upon those who SINNED BEFORE Christ's coming.
For "all men come short of the glory of God," and are not justified of themselves, but by the advent of the Lord,-they who earnestly direct their eyes towards His light. And it is for our instruction that their actions have been committed to writing, that we might know, in the first place, that our God and theirs is one, and that SINS do NOT please Him although committed by men of renown; and in the second place, that we should keep from wickedness. For if THESE MEN of OLD TIME, who PRECEDED us in the gifts [bestowed upon them], and for whom the Son of God had NOT yet suffered, WHEN they COMMITTED ANY SIN and SERVED FLESHY LUSTS, were RENDERED of such DISGRACE, what shall the MEN of the PRESENT day suffer, who have despised the Lord's coming, and become the slaves of their own lusts? And truly the DEATH of the Lord became [the means of] HEALING and REMISSIONS of SINS to the FORMER, ..." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXVII, Point 2)
Irenaeous Teaches that 'even the Wicked' men from the PAST TIMES ('before Christ') were given an opportunity to be 'Saved' during His Advent as the phrases 'it is NOT right that we should lay BLAME upon those who SINNED BEFORE Christ's coming', 'WHEN they COMMITTED ANY SIN and SERVED FLESHY LUSTS, were RENDERED of such DISGRACE' and 'he DEATH of the Lord became [the means of] HEALING and REMISSIONS of SINS to the FORMER' implies.
(iv) How about now?
1 Peter 4:5 - 6 allows this Possibility toward 'some' whilst others only after the Final Judgment at Gehenna (Lake of Fire). The Shepherd of Hermas Writing mentions that the 40 apostles + teachers descended likewise into the 'spirit world' after their earthly deaths too to preach the Gospel and as a result 'the righteous in good works but did not believe in Christ on earth during their lives prior' (Sheepfold2) had an opportunity likewise. It's discussed in Great Detail with 'other relatively early authorities of doctrine' regarding this Mystery and more in post below:
https://www.anonymouschristian.org/blog/secrets-of-the-gospel-being-preached-to-the-dead/
(v) A WARNING
Irenaeous WARNS that those who 'reject Christ willingly now' may NOT have that 'chance' at all (how to decide that? Only God Decides that for He Alone 'weighs all hearts'):
"... but Christ shall not die again in behalf of THOSE who NOW commit SIN, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to FEAR, lest perchance [REPENTANCE], AFTER [we have come to] the KNOWLEDGE of CHRIST, if we DO things DISPLEASING to God, we obtain NO further FORGIVENESS of SINS, but be SHUT OUT from His KINGDOM. And therefore it was that Paul said, "For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness." (Irenaeous, 'Against Heresies', Book 4, Chapter XXVII, Point 2)
"... And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that "what is impossible with men is possible with God," and, "Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who AFTER DEATH is able to cast BOTH SOUL and BODY into HELL [Gehenna]." And HELL [Gehenna] is a place where those are to be punished who have LIVED WICKEDLY, and who do NOT BELIEVE that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, CHAPTER XIX -- THE RESURRECTION POSSIBLE)
7) How to understand Eternity?
St. Irenaeous seems to mean that "Immortality" means "a long series of ages":
NO Eternal Life is Granted in One Aeon or One Age - The Eternal Age Heresy - Understanding Immortality Correctly.
Body and Soul do NOT exist forever but are subject to God granting its existence from 'age to age' or 'aeon to aeon', that is from 'one aeon to the next':
" ... But ALL THINGS which proceed from Him, WHATSOEVER have been MADE, and are made, do indeed receive their own beginning of generation, and on this account are INFERIOR to Him who formed them, inasmuch as they are not unbegotten. Nevertheless THEY ENDURE, and EXTEND their EXISTENCE into a LONG SERIES of AGES in accordance with the WILL of GOD their Creator; so that He GRANTS them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards." (St. Irenaeous of Lyons, 'Against Heresies', Book II, Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning, Point 2)
I repeat, please note these phrases 'carefully' from Irenaeous' own words (NOT mine) which proves this claim Irrefutably for 'Sound Doctrine':
ALL THINGS which proceed from Him, WHATSOEVER have been MADE ---> are INFERIOR to Him who formed them ---> THEY ENDURE, and EXTEND their EXISTENCE ---> into a LONG SERIES of AGES ----> [Ages or Aeons - Can you see the Plural 'ages to come' or 'aeons to come' theory true even for 'future ages' as per Ephesians 2:7?) ----> in accordance with the WILL of GOD their Creator, so that He GRANTS them.
This is an Important point to 'Understanding Immortality Correctly' as St. Irenaeous Beautifully explains above.
8.) Is Universal Salvation Endorsed?
Yes by Justin Martyr himself as he declares for example that the 'Sibyl' (or Sibyline Prophesies to be ACCEPTED as TRUE) and also that the Doctrine of AFTERLIFE JUDGMENT and PUNISHMENT of the WICKED as even PLATO taught (is in agreement with the Biblical Prophets - as pointed out in an earlier post) which SUPPORTS the 'Punishment for Betterment Concept' (the meaning of the word 'kolasin' in Matthew 25:46) where the Ultimate AIM is GOOD and SALVATION only despite 'the severity of Judgment which must be endured first' before MERCY Triumphs over and ENDS it (please read 'carefully' Justin's quote below agreeing to all this):
"And the SIBYL and Hys